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List of Louisiana Baptist University people

List of mostly non-notable people connected (sometimes loosely) with a diploma mill attended by the originator of the article. A.J.A. 02:44, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Comment Gastrich would be the article originator who attends the mill in question. The original nomination, BTW, was removed for not being properly listed and never recieved the full vote or discussion. A.J.A. 02:54, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
Comment: The accusations that Louisiana Baptist University is a diploma mill are being debated. However, if you read the talk page for the entry, you will see that the university clearly doesn't meet the criteria for a diploma mill (e.g. it has a campus and on-campus students/teachers/courses, founded in 1973, has 1100+ students, has lenghty degree and writing requirements, requires lengthy dissertations and theses, etc.). The only criteria it does fulfill is that it's unaccredited, but many Christian institutions elect to avoid governmental accreditation and there is no evidence that LBU tried for it and didn't get it. --Jason Gastrich 18:56, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Those aren't the criteria for a diploma mill. A diploma mill confers "earned" degrees for nonexistent or grossly deficient accademic work. Lack of accreditation creates a strong presumption that a school is a mill, and I've seen nothing from you to rebut that. You misrepresent the nature of accreditation: there is no "governmental accreditation", only private agencies recognized as legit by the government, one of which is explicitly Christian (and agencies not recognized, like the one that "accredits" LBU). A.J.A. 20:56, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
With all due respect, you haven't read what I wrote and what others have written. I took the 10 well-recognized criteria and showed that LBU only met 1.5/10. I also wrote above things that are opposite a diploma mill's standards. Plus, I've given my personal experience regarding the numbers of years it has taken to earn my degrees from LBU. I wrote much (or all) of this at ]. So, with all due respect, if you close your eyes, you can see nothing quite clearly. --Jason Gastrich 22:01, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
As a matter of fact, I have read it. There's no 1.5 about it. Claiming bogus accreditation isn't half a criteria, it's the whole thing. And as was already pointed out to you, the two are the main point. You've ignored that in favor of the false precision of repeating 1.5, when it's not a matter of numbers but rigor. Likewise, it can take as long as a real degree but without academic rigor it's still a diploma mill. A.J.A. 00:21, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
LBU doesn't "claim bogus accreditation." No, it isn't the whole thing. If it was, the list would be absurd and invalid. Furthermore, who is to say that it's the main point? Oh yeah, Dave Horn (WarriorScribe). Don't be so quick to take his word as gospel. --Jason Gastrich 06:11, 20 January 2006 (UTC)


  • Ho, hum...Gastrich gets it wrong again and tries to sneak in a reference to his stolen-domain-name group (which allows no rebuttal) and his lies? Several of them have been exposed, rebutted, or refuted here:
    • ... and he has run from every one of them...and then some.
  • Gastrich has done a pretty good job of stretching out his throat and handing out knives in the last 24 hours or so. You'd think he'd want to keep me out of it; but perhaps he's a glutton for punishment. - WarriorScribe 07:21, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
  • RoyBoy already pointed out the idiocy of Gastrich's claims about LBU and his "score" with respect to a list that he picked (out of many that could have been picked). RoyBoy was quite right to point out that the it was not an all-or-nothing proposition with respect to the list, but Gastrich just can't seem to get it. Draw your own conclusions. LBU does not teach research skills, investigatory skills, nor critical thinking skills. It has exceptionally lax standards, in practice and is sub-standard as an educational institution. Gastrich's own alleged "rebuttal" to the Skeptic's Annotated Bible is actually a good example, since it served as the basis for his "Master of Arts" from the school and, according to Gastrich, also served as the basis for his "doctorate." I'll be looking over the alleged "thesis" and "dissertation" when I'm in that part of the country, come April, but if what I have seen thus far is any indication, given Gastrich's rather superficial thinking skills and almost non-existent research skills, demonstrated thus far, I don't expect to be surprised. - WarriorScribe 07:21, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
AJA, you call yourself a Christian, but you are very quick to offend them. Do you realize that there are 1100+ students at LBU and thousands of graduates? I'm sure your callous and erroneous accusations are quite offensive to all of them. WWJD? --Jason Gastrich 06:11, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
Their bogus accreditation is the whole criteria. No, not criteria: "GetEducated.com’s Top 10 Red Flags – Online Diploma Mills" Red flags are not criteria you can check off mechanistically, and it never had any kind of authoritative status anyway.
I like how you seem to think a real Christian would never say anything that might offend the likes of Bill Gothard. A.J.A. 06:53, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
  • To find out what Gastrich thinks Jesus would do, consult this previous encounter that included another Christian. I find two things interesting about Gastrich's use of "WWJD.'" The first is that Gastrich has been asked this many times with respect to things that he writes or his own acts, and the reference above is the only direct response that I've ever seen. The second is that it's also interesting that, in light of his actions, he's been asked that a couple of times, hasn't answered, and now copy-cats the question to someone else. - WarriorScribe 06:39, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Oh, and it's almost amusing to see Gastrich complain about someone else offending Christians. You know, it wouldn't take much to go into the Google archives and find lots of examples of Gastrich doing exactly that. - WarriorScribe 07:25, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Funny Gastrich didn't mention Steve Levicoff and his views of

LBU from the same section. Here's a list from Levicoff's book, let's see if LBU meets that criteria.

All I've seen from Levicoff is someone posting an alleged quote of his on Usenet. While on his "sabbatical" job hunt, Horn is supposed to be getting his book from the library. Maybe he can scan a page that mentions LBU. If he could, then we'd finally have one somewhat reputable source calling LBU a diploma mill. Until that time, we have zero. --Jason Gastrich 06:14, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
note: This is Heaven Helpers first edit in wikipedia. David D. (Talk) 04:31, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
This is irrelvant. As it has been shown, 60 universities have entries and a list of people. --Jason Gastrich 22:13, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
It's relevant to his vote, which had a rational about the notability of the school but suggested renaming it, which strongly suggests he thought he was voting on whether there should be any article about it at all. The other lists aren't relevant because if we take out the deadwood (i.e., the red links and the links that are going to go red and the people only marginally connected to the mill), there's hardly anything left. Plenty of schools have a lot of notable graduates. The mill you're wasting your time at? Not so much. A.J.A. 22:38, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
Yes, they're used for many universities, institutes, and colleges. --Jason Gastrich 05:15, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
Wow, you're right. That is a very impressive list of 60 universities. Is there are seperate category for non-accredited universities? Or will we have to create a new category for this list? David D. (Talk) 05:35, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
I know. It's a good thing and par for the course on Misplaced Pages. There isn't an unaccredited category specifically for lists right now. You can create one if you like. --Jason Gastrich 05:39, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
note: to date, this user has nine edits. Four on Afd's related to Jason Gastrich. Amazingly this new user found the first nomination that was not even listed in Afd. David D. (Talk) 06:10, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
that is something to be asked on wp:rfcu for an answer Yuckfoo 06:18, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
comment This wouldn't be the first time Gastrich has tried to astroturf an AfD vote. Mark K. Bilbo 18:34, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
note: to date, this user has four edits. ALL on Afd's related to Jason Gastrich. With regard to constitutional rights, who is stopping you speak? With regard to discrimination, if they are deleted it will be because they are unnotable NOT because they are Christian. David D. (Talk) 18:18, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
comment: This "user" needs to brush up on what a "constitutional right" actually is. Mark K. Bilbo 18:30, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
There's nothing vote stacking or wrong with encouraging people to vote. --Jason Gastrich 01:31, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Comment Funny, isn't it, that when an AfD concerns an article of yours that people never seen before come crawling out of the woodwork to vote with you? Mark K. Bilbo 14:18, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
How do you know it's of interest to very few people? There are 59 lists like it. Do you happen to know how many of those are important to how many different people? --Jason Gastrich 18:52, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Apparently the 59 others are accredited and the schools are actually rather significant on their own. Harvestdancer 20:39, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep(strong) First of all, the nom uses very subjective language. Diploma mill is a pretty crappy spin to put on things. Second, there may be someone who wants to do research on the school and its associates, why not have a page? Brokenfrog 20:30, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
There is a page for the school itself, which lists notable alums. This list is redundant to that page. -Harvestdancer 20:39, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete (strong) I don't see how this is necessary with the inclusion of notables on LBU's page. The discussion seems to be mostly reasonable peppered other than the personal attacks from the author. I would say that there would be vote stacking. I received notice of this from a email list headed by Jason Gastrich himself. If I could get a place to host I would be happy to post said email. To quote from that message:

"...Several weeks ago, JCSM (Jesus Christ Saves Ministries) noticed this trend and created a new ministry called Wiki4Christ. It's an organization that exists to make sure Christians have a united and represented voice on Misplaced Pages. As you may imagine, unbelievers also edit there and they actively try to silence Christian input and revert our contributions; especially Christian biographies! This is where we need you, now.

Yesterday, the entries below were nominated for deletion. This means there will be a vote on whether or not to keep them. Please come and let your voice be heard! This endeavor will only take 10-15 minutes and it will be something you can do with your online time that will further the kingdom of God. Wouldn't you like to vote to keep Christian entries on Misplaced Pages?..."

He goes on to give links to all of his articles that are noted for deletion. He also doesn't point out these articles are authored by himself. - I would say that this languaged is charged to skew voting. I have been a longtime fan and user of Wiki and this is the first time I've been interested in its process. Jazzscrub 21:05, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

This borders on paranoia "unbelievers also edit there and they actively try to silence Christian input and revert our contributions". First, I suspect that not all people voting to "revert Christian input" are "unbelievers". I challenge Jason Gastrich to offer evidence for a single case of "Christian input", that is both notable and NPOV, being successfully reverted by unbelievers. I have only seen non-notable edits and POV edits from Christians being reverted. This is not a conspiracy since we all know that the "unbleievers" who post POV and non notable contributions are also reverted. Please stop trying to provoke trouble. David D. (Talk) 21:21, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Comment: I actively try and get people to come and be a part of the Misplaced Pages community. I don't want anyone to ever come, vote, and leave. This is obvious from the verbiage on my organization's web site . --Jason Gastrich 21:51, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
You are spreading gossip about wikipedia and presenting it in an unfavorable light. Will the new editors arrive expecting hoardes of "unbelievers"? Stick to the facts. Thankyou. David D. (Talk) 22:07, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
He's also making a quite serious accusation about me personally, only he doesn't have the guts to come out and say it. All this is specifically about my nominations, so this stuff about "unbelievers" means me. Only I'm a Christian, as he was aware of before writing. So he's accusing me of being a false brother, without having the courage or honesty to say it plainly, or even the basic fidelity to Scriptural teachings to discuss it with me privately first. A.J.A. 00:21, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
So we can keep this on topic, I'll reply to you on your talk page. --Jason Gastrich 07:45, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
Comment Nonsense. Your emailing specifically names articles of yours and the deletion votes ongoing. You're not "encouraging participation," you're trying to influence the AfD votes. And quite blatantly at that. Mark K. Bilbo 21:55, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep university-related topics are notable. Cynical 21:48, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge any actual notables into the university article, otherwise delete. Solicited a favourable vote from me via email because I am listed as an inclusionist. I would like to point out that the inclusionist motto is "with truth preserved."...not "with vanity preserved." Well established, accredited institutions usually do warrant a seperate list of notable graduates...Harvard, for example, is very likely to have a huge list of notable graduates which would be too long for the main article...but LBU's list (even if they are all truly notable) is short enough to fit fine into the main article. If this article is kept, then I vote to have an undeletable list of all people who have read the Invisible Pink Unicorn article. bcatt 21:49, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge any actual notables into the university article, otherwise delete. --Devein 22:50, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep or merge with original article. This AfD appears to be in danger of going off-topic. This is suppose to be about whether or not the article is worth keeping, not about whether or not LBU is a "degree mill" or not, or the merits of accreditation, or other stuff this AfD is bringing up. Let's get back on topic, does this article deserve to exist? I say yes, why not, otherwise, we should begin removing other school's lists. It could probably be paired down to be just notable alumni, but it still deserves to exist.--Azathar 23:15, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment: The quoted phrase from your post above, "or the merits of accreditation," is incorrect. Misplaced Pages is WP:NOT a directory of vanity. I agree with the merge, but Louisiana Baptist University is an unaccredited institution of higher learning and is not notable enough to deserve its own page for alumini. The only thing more ridiculous is that there are vanity biographies made of these non-notable people featured on the alumini. Finally, Jason Gastrich is making personal attacks and encouraging people who obviously do not know the entire situation to blindly support him via email. I am not criticizing Christianity, but this method of vote stacking is inexplicably ludicrous. I am trying very hard to restraining myself from making stronger comments, but that may not be possible in the near future. Sycthos 01:54, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment: Upon reviewing the Wiki 4 Christ site, and its objectives, I have several comments to make. It is fine that you are creating this organization, but Misplaced Pages's vanity rules take priority over everything. Lists of alumini on unaccredited universities and biographies on non-notable Christian missionaries are unacceptable. If you have a dispute, create your own wiki site. Sycthos 02:00, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment: Thanks for your comment. However, I disagree with you and I believe that some unaccredited universities deserve lists of people associated with them. For instance, Bob Jones University is unaccredited. Why shouldn't they have a list? The fact remains that there are many notable alumni and a list is a good thing to have, so they can be organized and, well, listed. The fact that they haven't sought government accreditation means little; especially in light of its alumni and academic requirements. --Jason Gastrich 02:06, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
Actually, BJU is accredited. A.J.A. 02:17, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
Gastrich you made two errors: LBU did apply for accreditation and was denied. And BJU does have accreditation from Transnational Association of Christian Colleges and Schools (TRACS), Accreditation Commission, see .
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.200.116.196 (talk • contribs) .
I don't see anything about them applying and being denied. Also, this link doesn't tell me that they are accredited, now. I've read that they have applied for TRACS accreditation and were waiting on their decision. --Jason Gastrich 02:31, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
The LBU 1998 request by TRACS (the people who approved BJU) was denied-- this was explained once to you already on the LBU talk page. A discussion about the inquiry with Steve Levicoff and the denial of the approval in 2000.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.200.116.196 (talk • contribs) .
The search isn't working on my computer, but this article states that Bob Jones University has recieved accreditation. Sycthos 02:46, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
To be exact, they have candidacy status , which means they're in basic compliance with the standards. It's apparently a kind of probationary accreditation. IIRC, even before they were accredited BJU was considered to have one of the top accountancy programs in the country, which to my mind is enough to overcome the presumption that an unaccredited school is a mill. (Still wouldn't want to go there.) A.J.A. 03:18, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Well, we could first remove anything from this list that wasn't WP:Verifiable from Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources. That would be the barest of minumums, and is absolutley beyond negotiation. We could then take the little (if anything) that is left and merge it into its parent article, probably deleting the redirect as useless. We could then have a bun-fight on the article's talk page about what is meaningful to keep, ending up with like four names. Or we could simply delete this now, as its only purpose is to provide a list of articles that are AfD candidates as they don't meet WP:BIO. - brenneman 02:14, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment: According to a google test, Bob Jones University has 1,010,000 results, while Louisiana Baptist University only has 782. Bob Jones University is clearly more notable than Louisiana Baptist University, so that is a different case. Sycthos 02:18, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
Google isn't the only indicator of notablity. --Jason Gastrich 02:31, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
Very true. However, from a Yahoo! test, Louisiana Baptist University scored 1,570 hits while Bob Jones University scored 772,000. The margin of difference is simply too large to consider otherwise. From an Alexa test, Bob Jones University has a ranking of 82,173, while Louisiana Baptist University dosen't even have a ranking. Sycthos 02:39, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete As others have stated, these seems partially redundant with the notables list, and the author's arguments do not persuade me of this list's worthiness (or indeed, the worthiness of many of the list's items) KrazyCaley 03:41, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge, if not delete. I may be an inclusionist, but I'm not stupid. —Nightstallion (?) 06:59, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge any actual notables into the university article, otherwise delete. ··· rWd · Talk ··· 07:18, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge into Louisiana Baptist University. Alphax  07:30, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge with Louisiana Baptist University. Yes, Gastrich, I'm an inclusionist. I also have absolutely no problem with alerting people to ongoing votes, and think that people who vote against simply because of that are being incredibly dense, but that doesn't mean I don't weigh the article's merits once alerted. I'm not going to pass judgment on whether LSU is a diploma mill or not, but don't think I'm just a tool to use for voting keep on every article on the deletion listings. I'm going to give each of the articles you sent to me careful consideration, and will vote accordingly. If you were expecting me to charge in and vote keep without reading anything, you don't know me very well. Rogue 9 10:31, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge. Useful content, but doesn't need to stand in an article of its own. --StuffOfInterest 12:53, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong keep We can't just throw out something related to something intellectual (in this case, a university) while other articles related to things like sport are kept. It is not of stub length, and is useful and informative. This could save someone a lot of searching. - 13:14, 20 January 2006 (UTC) The Great Gavini
  • Keep. Useful content is useful content; keep it around. Kerobaros 13:17, 20 January 2006 (UTC)kerobaros
  • Strong Keep This is a perfectly viable encyclopedia article on a public institution that could very well be the subject of someone's research in the future. In such an event, wikipedia would come in handy. That is what wikipedia is for. I haven't heard a single good argument to why this should be deleted. There is no wikipedia article on "Diplomamill". User:Itake|Itake]] 14:58, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
abstain I don't know enough about this here yet so I'm abstaining for now. But it seems to me that alot of these articles here, the bio's I mean, pass into the notable stage and are verifiable. I'm not a christian by a long shot and I have issues with fundamentalism in a big way but that doesn't mean these folks don't deserve to be here. The criteria for me here is, "is this article useful as a way to initiate research" and clearly it is. If I was interested in, say, the history of baptist thinking or wanted to make a wash list of baptist notable, I could use this as a start. A PERFECT WIKI ARTICLE in my opion.
And just to be above board here, I was asked to come vote here by the author. This is not vote stacking or Ballot stuffing , it is simply campaigning. Those of you opposed to this author or these entries will just have to trust that the people who are brought in can make up their own minds regardless of how they got here. Personally, I'm questioning the objectivity and neutrality of both sides here. This is an encyclopedia without page limits and in order to avoid charges of bias especially in these controversial areas, we should always err on the side of inclusiveness.Ginar 14:43, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
These articles aren't controversial in any way. The self-proclaimed "deletecrew" that haunts this site makes topics like this controversial by attacking them because of their own POV views.Itake 14:58, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Question Comment - How many people are here because Gastrich emailed all the inclusionists on the vain hope that you automatically vote to keep articles? An argument for delete can be made that should be acceptable to inclusionists - put the valuable intellectual content where it belongs, in the LBU article, and no content is lost. I know that there are several such inclusionists here, although since Gastrich used email instead of talk pages, there's no Wiki trail of proof like there is for his wikichrist crowd. -Harvestdancer 15:55, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
Could you atleast try and hide your own POV like all the others do? Seriously, I'm asking again. Give me a good argument why this should be deleted. Itake 16:05, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
I already did. Unlike Harvard, LBU is not as significant an institution of higher learning. Some schools warrant their own page of notable alumni simply because of the size of such a list. This page, on the other hand, can easily be included in the LBU article without any loss of content and therefore, by mergist principles, does not warrant a separate page. Will you try to hide your POV, like you say everyone but the two of us tries to do? -Harvestdancer 16:25, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Something very funny happened today. I got two identical emails from Jason Gastrich through Misplaced Pages. You can make up your own mind as to whether this qualifies for meat-puppetry or stacking the vote. Here's the email. --Cyde Weys 16:32, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Hello,
I noticed that you were listed as a Christian Wikipedian. I am, too. I wanted to let you know that in the last 24 hours, someone has nominated 12 Christian biography entries for deletion. Not only does this seem like bad faith and an affront to a lot of hard work, but I'd like you to come and vote on the entries. These nominations seem peculiar because some people are even presidents of universities and well known authors.
Below are some of the links that need attention. Thanks for your consideration.
By the way, I recently started an organization called Wiki4Christ (see http://wiki4christ.com). If you’d like to join a network of Christians with a purpose on Misplaced Pages, please see our site!
Sincerely,
Jason Gastrich


http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_Louisiana_Baptist_University_people_%28second_nomination%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/J._Otis_Ledbetter
http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Ron_Moseley
http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Mike_Randall
http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Thomas_Ice
http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/James_Combs
http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Neal_Weaver
http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Daniel_Dorim_Kim