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Thomas Ice

Not everybody with some kind of "ministry" is notable. A.J.A. 05:09, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. A.J.A. 05:10, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

• Strong keep. Editor nominated 10 Christian biography entries for deletion, today. It's hard to assume good faith. Plus, Thomas Ice is a very notable author, debater, speaker, and leader. In fact, he has over 37,000 hits on Google.com . --Jason Gastrich 05:20, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

A load of hits on Yahoo, too. Until we refine the search criteria. And even refining it gives us gems like this: Saint Thomas Ice Arena ... The Saint Thomas Ice Arena is located just across from the Saint Thomas Academy school in Mendota Heights ... Copyright © 2004 Saint Thomas Ice Arena. Last modified: 06/10/05 ...www.saintthomasicearena.com - 12k - Cached - More from this site" Jim62sch 23:36, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

And if we refine the search to this, "thomas+ice+christian", we get "Results 1 - 6 of about 11 for "thomas+ice+christian"". Wow, impressive. Jim62sch 23:38, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

• Keep 37,800 hits at Google, not nearly all of which are this person. Notability may exist within a small segment of Christendom, but is the opinion is apparently not widespread; and Wiki isn't here to cater to the hero worship of a single editor or a relative few. - WarriorScribe 05:49, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

• Vote was originally for deletion. Changed (if that's okay) upon further review of WP:BIO and the subject's publication record. Apologies all around for the need to change the vote. - WarriorScribe 07:05, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

With all due respect, he has likely written more books than you've read. --Jason Gastrich 05:52, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Personal attack noted with amusement. - WarriorScribe 05:59, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

A display of his much-touted debating skills. Jim62sch 22:37, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

• keep' please this is a important author erasing this does not make sense at all Yuckfoo 05:57, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

"Important author" to whom? By what criteria? - WarriorScribe 05:59, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

To those that read (written for your amusement, of course). --Jason Gastrich 06:02, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Personal attack again noted, with amusement. - WarriorScribe 06:03, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Why don't went get some sales statistics and prove this either way?

Mein Kampf sold quite well also. Jim62sch 22:37, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Mein Kampf sold extremely well, and is notable. Bad example. KillerChihuahua 22:50, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

How about Mao Zedong's book? Jim62sch 00:06, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

• Delete. hius qualifications are from a diploma mill. self-styled religious leader.Blnguyen 06:42, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

• Easy Keep WP:BIO - Jaysus Chris 07:13, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. He seems notable enough. Personal interest and taste should not be used as criteria for inclusion or deletion. I'd chop out half the articles in Misplaced Pages, if I were able to weed out what I find unimportant. I might even delete this one, if it were a matter of what is "important" to me. Logophile 07:17, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Comment Please explain who published his books and cite where 5,000+ people have read them. WP:BIO You keep saying "notable" and offer no citation, much like the article.

• Keep You may not know him but in the world of Christian Prophecy he is a prominent exponent of the pre-tribulation position. I would never dream of asking for deletion of articles about individuals who have a similar influence and yet hold other views. Admittedly the article could do with some improvement and additional biographical and professional information. :: Kevinalewis : please contact me on my Talk Page : 09:38, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

• Keep many published books -- Astrokey44|talk 09:41, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Keep ridiculous to delete an author with this many publications. California12 02:30 18 January 2006

• Keep - His published books make him notable enough. And by the way Jason Gastrich - not everyone is in on this anti-Christian conspiracy. Personally, I'm looking at the articles nominated with a fair eye and deciding on each one whether or not it is notable. Cyde Weys 2M-VOTE 16:59, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

With all due respect, you weren't using your "fair eye" on the Mike Randall entry. You voted to delete because you said he was the president of a diploma mill. In fact, he is the president of a regionally accredited university. I hope you change your vote for that entry. --Jason Gastrich 21:24, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

That's "regionally accredited university" in the sense of "nationally un-accredited university" - i.e. diploma mill. Not that you have any conflict of interest, right? - Just zis  Guy, you know? / AfD? 12:01, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

In all honesty, "regionally accredited university" really doesn't mean anything. It's vacuous nonsense meant to deceive. Populus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur. Jim62sch 22:42, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

• Comment. Of the books listed, about 25% of them are sold at Amazon.com. The ones that are sold usually place between 250,000 - 500,000 on the popularity of most sold books. The most popular is the commentary on the Left Behind series.--Esprit15d 18:32, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Its not hard to get an ISBN work, properly package to be sold at Amazon.

• Keep as per everyone else. Hall Monitor 18:47, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

• Keep reasonable number of books found in mainstream (Amazon, B&N, such). And the dispensational fundamentalist camp is notable, however, unfortunate that is (I keep wanting to apologize that my people gave the world Darby). Mark K. Bilbo 18:55, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure that being on Amazon makes a book notable or mainstream. Many of the ones they sell are self published. David D. (Talk) 18:57, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Point. However, at least some of his books are with (albeit Christian) publishing houses (such as Harvest House, New Leaf). And he has written and/or edited with LaHaye who is a major figure in the dispensational fundamentalist movement. Ice may not be as notable as a Falwell but doesn't seem--to me at least--to be obscure either. I'd say he's "notable enough." Maybe I should say "weak keep?" Mark K. Bilbo 20:09, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

• Delete this article was created by Jason Gastrich to promote his school as a mainstream institution. This is only one of around 10 articles he created promoting his religion/degree/school. See List_of_Louisiana_Baptist_University_people. --Q
• Strong keep published author B.ellis 21:12, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
• Weak KeepDelete I agree with Q. but the fact is that this fellow's output is enough to allow him a mention. Also, it is possible more sceptical content may eventually be produced; this lunatic believes in the rapture lol. Based on further comments below, changing my vote. The vote stacking is unacceptable and the provenance of the author's qualifications ludicrous. Eusebeus 23:53, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Quantity over quality and relevance? Jim62sch 00:08, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

• Weak KeepDelete The books are all vanity press, he's barely notable, but as a co-founder and director of a diploma mill we should probably have an article on him. KillerChihuahua 00:08, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

  Changing vote, the more I look at this and read other comments, the harder it gets to justify space for this. KillerChihuahua 19:31, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

• Keep. Notable. Cnwb 00:29, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - Guettarda 03:25, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
• Delete director of a redlinked institution, teaching on a redlinked subject, PhD from a diploma mill, books have Amazon sales rank in the hundreds of thousands and above (where listed at all). A book I know well, a steadcy if not meteoric seller, is Mister God, This is Anna. That's been around for, what? twenty years? And it still has a sales rank of the order of 50k. Sorry, but this is just one more of the steady stream of Louisiana Baptist University alumni being pushed by Gastrich. And I note that he's also been vote-stacking, which absolutely clinhes it for me. Just zis  Guy, you know? / AfD? 11:59, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom and JzG, influenced strongly by the vote stacking. Stifle 17:52, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

With all due respect, two things. First, since the alleged vote stacking, there haven't been any votes to keep; just to delete. My alleged vote stacking simply asked four or five people to vote (not one way or the other). So, you being strongly influenced by that doesn't make any sense. Furthermore, voting one way out of spite isn't in Misplaced Pages's best interests, so I'm sure that'll be noted by many as well. Honorable Wikipedians will examine the entry and decide one way or the other. --Jason Gastrich 18:46, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Mr. Gastrich, allow me to say for myself, I am an Afd regular and I often vote to delete, not because I am a deletionist but because those doing the nominating usually have good reason. That said, I also do due diligence. I am very proud of having "saved" several articles, including a Russian folk song and a truly tacky but notable drinking game . I also chastise those whom I suspect of bad-faith nominations. I do not consider these bad-faith noms. It appears to me that you, as you cannot rewrite the article for LBU since it is protected, have decided to take another tack and make a list of people who went to LBU and write articles about them. While it is understandable that you would want to try to gain for your alma mater as much credibility as can be gleaned, filling the pages of WP with articles about people whose main claim to fame is that they got their diploma from the same place as you is vanity. You have compounded vanity with attempts at vote-stacking, and now with personal attacks and accusations of "spite voting" which is nonsense in my case, and I believe in the case of every editor voting here. One puppy's opinion. KillerChihuahua 19:56, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

In a way, the purpose of vote-stacking has been served -- a handful of people heard of the Frozen Thomas prior to this AfD, now scores of people have. Excellent PR work...or is that evangelizing? Self-promotion? Pride? (Oh, no, can't be the last, that's one of those sin things). Jim62sch 00:14, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

• Delete (weak) per KillerChihuahua. David D. (Talk) 19:47, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
• Keep (Strong) He nominated 10 articles by the same person on the same subject for deletion. That just reeks of bad faith. Add to that the subject's being a well known and prolific author (albeit with an odd subject matter) warrents a wikipedia article. Misplaced Pages is not paper!Brokenfrog 20:27, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
• Delete (strong) I don't see how this is necessary with the inclusion of actual notables on LBU's page. The discussion seems to be mostly reasonable peppered other than the personal attacks from the author. I would say that there would be vote stacking. I received notice of this from a email list headed by Jason Gastrich himself. If I could get a place to host I would be happy to post said email. To quote from that message:

"...Several weeks ago, JCSM (Jesus Christ Saves Ministries) noticed this trend and created a new ministry called Wiki4Christ. It's an organization that exists to make sure Christians have a united and represented voice on Misplaced Pages. As you may imagine, unbelievers also edit there and they actively try to silence Christian input and revert our contributions; especially Christian biographies! This is where we need you, now.

Yesterday, the entries below were nominated for deletion. This means there will be a vote on whether or not to keep them. Please come and let your voice be heard! This endeavor will only take 10-15 minutes and it will be something you can do with your online time that will further the kingdom of God. Wouldn't you like to vote to keep Christian entries on Misplaced Pages?..."

He goes on to give links to all of his articles that are noted for deletion. He also doesn't point out these articles are authored by himself. - I would say that this languaged is charged to skew voting. I have been a longtime fan and user of Wiki and this is the first time I've been interested in its process. Jazzscrub 21:03, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

• Strong Keep university-related topics are notable. Cynical 21:49, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Comment: This is America. Its not a University just because it calls itself one. I could open a hot-dog stand University if I wanted. It just wouldn't be accredited, like LBU. KillerChihuahua 21:57, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

With all due respect, this post shows your ignorance regarding LBU and its requirements. You can learn about the university here, though . --Jason Gastrich 22:03, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Your campaign here to promote your diploma mill is its most notable aspect. Who knows, maybe they'll name a "hall" in your honor... FeloniousMonk 22:33, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

The requirements being that one must accept Jesus as his personal saviour and believe in the accuracy of the Bible. BTW, Jason: KC is hardly ignorant, rather, KC is very well-versed on a wide variety of subjects and researches before commenting. Jim62sch 00:29, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

• Merge into an article which discusses Ice and anyone else who has at least this much notability in the subject area. I don't think he warrants his own article, but this one seems to be of sufficient interest (if only to baptist circles) to mention somewhere within a more general article. bcatt 22:19, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
• Delete pity we can't delete the author. — Dunc|☺ 22:21, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
• Delete FeloniousMonk 22:33, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - Dunc's on the right track. Ice baby needs to be melted and steamed away into the ether. Jim62sch 22:45, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
• Keep it looks for me like he's worth a note on wikipedia, at least for the mere volume of books he wrote. --Devein 22:56, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. --kingboyk 23:14, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
• comment if this many people care you might as well keep it, I mean there are almost a million articles, if more than a handful of people have an interest then why delete it--M4bwav 23:42, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. So . . . wanna vote? --Jason Gastrich 07:52, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

• keep as per User:Cyde opinion above. Not that I agree with any of Mr. Ice's opinions, but he has published alot.--Azathar 23:50, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
• Keep He appears to be notable enough. Banes 07:15, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per User:Cyde ··· rWd · Talk ··· 07:28, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
• Keep, meets WP:BIO. Alphax  07:44, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. I'm not much for Gastrich's style here, but rampant deletions just to spite one guy rub me the wrong way. Rogue 9 10:48, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I think your analysis may be in error. Thomas Ice is essentially a nobody in the real world. He has a small cult following, and produced books of little or no value to anyone but those who share his rather unorthodox views. (This may seem harsh, but reality sometimes bites). In a way, what would really be best would be an article on "Inerrantist Writers" (or something like that) that mentioned Ice, but wasting kilobytes on this guy alone is a tad ridiculous. Jim62sch 11:06, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

• Keep, seems notable enough. --King of All the Franks 11:07, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. Per a recent AfD for Louisiana Baptist University, it appears there is a community out there who believes in deleting anything with practices they don't agree in. Better to know than to ignore. --StuffOfInterest 12:39, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. He's a published author, as per WP:BIO. Kerobaros 13:30, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. Holy good gravy! This is a good quality article. All ISBNs are there. Not a red link in sight. There's obviously a place in Misplaced Pages for this guy. - The Great Gavini

• Strong Keep Not one single good argument against deletion here. This dude is the head of an institution founded by Tim LaHayes. Tim LaHayes is more noteworthy then all you people put together. This article isn't going anywhere, it is staying right here. Itake 15:03, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

This is an arugument from ignorance (you don't know about people voting here) as well as an assertion (Tim is noteworthy) and not very convincing. Certainly much less convincing than the arguments to delete. David D. (Talk) 18:44, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Keep Seems to be a legitimate author of many books, notable on Google, even in Brazil!. Walkerma 15:35, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

• Delete: Non-notable. Justin Eiler 16:20, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

• Keep Published Author Wynler 17:34, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
• Keep same as above. --Yonghokim 17:41, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

• Keep I see little reason to delete this article. --Shanedidona 17:47, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

• Keep Salva veritate! Lerner 18:05, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Keep easily passes the WP:BIO standards.  ALKIVAR™ 18:49, 20 January 2006 (UTC)