Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Shell Kinney (talk | contribs) at 16:07, 19 May 2010 (→Topic bans: explain). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Arbitrators active on this case

To update this listing, edit this template and scroll down until you find the right list of arbitrators. If updates to this listing do not immediately show, try purging the cache.

FoF's and remedies for Vlad fedorov

1.Edit warring

Disruptive anon IP edits in Belarus article

Some obviously Balt anon IP comes and inserts one and the same text twice to one article both to History and Politics sections ,. The content of his message includes "The first people arrived on the territory of modern Lithuania in the 10th millennium BC after the glaciers had retreated and the last glacial period had ended. According to historian Marija Gimbutas, the people came from two directions: from the Jutland Peninsula and from present-day Poland. They brought two different cultures as evidenced by the tools they used". Just for everyone, this anon IP claims that "identity of the Balts formed about 2000 BC"!!!!!!!!

Storyline of alleged edit warring

• March 25. Anon IP injects the same text twice throughout the article , in History and (!!!!)Politics section.
• March 27. By first edit I remove anon IP claim from Politics section. Obviously good decision. Nation descendance history is hardly relevant in this Section.

Now how this text relates to Belarusian politics? First Belarusian politics came from Lithuania? By second edit I remove this highly POV allegation . How territory of Lithuania relates to Belarus? Have arbitrators seen Krivich, Dregovichs, Radimichs, Polochans articles? By what logic these edits reversing explicit vandalism and scientifically unreliable Balt POV pushing by anon IPs are named "reverts"? How Belarusian being Slav people come to be Balt people? Is it invitation from Arbcom for all anonym IP to come to troll Russia History section with claims of Mongoloid descendance of modern Russian people, etc.?

• April 3. The same anon returns and injects his POV again .
• April 18. He returns again to push his Baltic theory.
• April 19. Another Balt IP comes and vandalises the article
• April 26. Another editor agrees that this first anon IP text is irrelevant to Belarus article and removes this text. .

Restoring the prominent caricature on Peace of Riga

is treated as edit war. On which ground? We have discussed this on talk page. I received inputs from both Mr. nonono and Zscout, we reached consensus and I've never been restoring this caricature again. I did something wrong discussing this? I did something wrong by non-reverting this caricature back to the article again after discussion?

My revert is dated March 30. Discussion on talk page finished on April 6. What is the problem?

Have you seen how caricatures are being used by Polish users throughout Soviet related articles?

2.Combative editing.

Very unusual definition in arbcase practice. I've searched arbcom previous cases and found only record of a 12 hr block for combative editing here. The editor was sanctioned like that, and later received this block.

• I agree that my commentaries in these subjects that were since the opening of English Misplaced Pages almost exclusively covered by Polish editors might be treated as combative. However, all articles related to occupation by Pilsudski Poland of Lithuania, Belarus and Ukraine are written almost exclusively from Polish POV. And you cannot deny that most EEML members were the main contributors and the main guardians of the current POV in these articles. Halibutt came to Belarusian Peasants' and Workers' Union after my edits in Polonization, apparently trying to learn more about the events which I developed significantly, sourced almost exclusively to Google books (which are considered by Polish editors (Piotrus) as neutral), and cited modern Belarusian history textbooks.

• Halibutt in bad faith inserted numerous fact tags, although the whole paragraph was sourced to Kastiuk History of Belarus, "Ekoperspektiva", Minsk, (2006), ISBN 985-6598-12-2, ISBN 985-469-149-7 for Volume V, v.V. Here is Belarusian academician Kastiuk http://nasb.gov.by/rus/members/academicians/kostyuk.php, there is this 6 volume Belarus history mentioned, I could scan the respective pages of this work and send to anyone at request.

• I accept qualification of this my edit as combative. Apologies. But... This was opinion of Polish historian and I correctly indicated that. Moreover, someone who inserted this opinion distorted its original meaning. And I correctly indicated that this Lady was writing about Volyn and not the whole Kresy. Anyone who reads Polish may study the original source http://www.caw.wp.mil.pl/biuletyn/b28/b28_6.pdf. The book of this Lady is named "OSADNICTWO WOJSKOWE NA WOŁYNIU W LATACH 1921-1939 W ŚWIETLE DOKUMENTÓW CENTRALNEGO ARCHIWUM WOJSKOWEGO" which explicitly states that the work concerns Volyn exclusively!!!

Halibutt, who claims his main interest is history, apparently was aware of the content of this source and was apparently aware that it concerned Volyn and not the whole Kresy. Excuse me, but if you approve and endorse then a style of editing where original sources are distorted intentionally and inserted to Misplaced Pages?

• I also cannot completely and unreservedly accept this edit as combative, because every single entry is sourced appropriately and most of the entries lead to exact pages of Google books where anyone interested could recheck these facts. None of Halibutt arguments are acceptable. I don't need to make photos of every Orthodox Church demolished by Poles in Interwar Period. I don't need to bring in there a separate source for each Church demolished.

This edit. After reviewing the history of the article, I would agree that I mistreated there Halibutt. My sincere apologies. As to the facts - my edit was right. Communist party newsletter has no relation to Democratic socialist party.

3.Period of topic ban. Given the above reviewed edits which were taken as decision basis and comparing with others edits, I think my remedy is too harsh.

• From my start in Misplaced Pages I was confronted by Biophys, later when he joined EEML, I was confronted with EEML members. Of course they are more experienced, of course they are more nice prima facie because they are in Misplaced Pages for a long time. Look at how long my blocks were in comparison with those of EEML members. David Gerard gave me 1 month block. Arcom - 1 year total ban.
• I do contribute to Misplaced Pages. I am currently trying to contribute more in small Belarusian community articles. There are so few Belarusian articles were belarusian views are presented. Belarus article is constantly being subject of anon vandalism and disruptive POV injections. Who would benefit from my ban?
• Consider banning me from specific articles if you want.
• Resuming my edits I was trying not to engage in massive total edit wars, I evaded as long as possible contraversial articles Battle for Height 766, Russian apartments bombings, Human rights in the Soviet Union, Human rights in Russia.
• What do you want me to stop doing? Colchicum sends me links to pages where people like are called "whores" and you do nothing. But when I try to make a sense out of Belarus you say I edit war.
• Maybe it's time not just to throw out the baby with the water, and just appoint a good experienced mentor who would help me indealing with the editors who are of the opposite POV? Vlad fedorov (talk) 08:04, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Whether or not those are the best examples, it is clear that you frequently have problems with edit warring. Many of your reverts are because you disagree with the POV or other non-vandalism reasoning - those are not the types of edits that should be handled by simple reverts. Discussion is key to resolving the ongoing problems experienced in the area and is something that is seriously lacking at this time.

You are welcome and even encouraged to find an appropriate mentor to work with during your topic ban; showing improvements in editing elsewhere will go a long way towards a return to editing in the topic area. Shell 09:49, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Shelly, many people in this case have problems with edit warring. I don't agree that I have edit warred in my recent edits, combative attitude provoked - yes, but not stupid edit warring. The problem is that people unfortunately are not influenced by discussions and there was a lot of discussions with Biophys and Colchicum for example. My edits after previous arbitration haven't ignited conflicts between users, like in Biophys case. I tried to discuss with Colchicum, but received "ignorants, freaks, Holocaust deniers" in return. I tried this with Biophys to no avail. I haven't been reporting incivilties by Polish users about "taking medication" to ANI . I don't want you treat this like a show off, but consider that I wasn't so combative in the end. Biophys would have reported people for less that this. I haven't been reporting Colchicum during EEML and after its closure for his incivilties and was forced to do so only after he showed up in this arbcase. Won't you agree that I demonstrated good will in those cases?

I haven't participated in those long protracted edit wars in Litvinenko, Bombings, etc. articles. I guess, Private International Law or International Public Law would hardly be contraversial subjects, because lawyers throughout the world have common sources and authorities and because these articles (thank you God) are edited mostly by lawyers. However, Soviet Union related articles would stay POVed. What I need is experienced adviser who would teach me to deal with other editors and editing in Soviet Union related contraversial articles. Which is unlikely in view of your decision. I predict that my edits in Law-related areas wouldn't be contraversial. But at the expiry of topic ban I again won't be experienced enough in editing in Soviet Union related articles. And again this wheel would be turning. You cure the symptom not disease in my case. Sanctions are not punitive but preventive, right? Look at my edits - I discuss a way lot more than before Stomakhin arbcase. Maybe I just need guidance?

Shelly, 6 months topic ban is disproportionate to edits presented, given the behaviour of the editors who interacted with me. At least, consider that NPOV, DUE WEIGHT are considered as pillars of Misplaced Pages. You let Colchicum go free despite unsourced POV pushing, incivilties, and battleground mentality?

At least, please, advise me very experienced mentor who has very rich knowledge of editing in contraversial areas. Vlad fedorov (talk) 12:09, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

I think it's important to point out that the topic bans here are not based solely on edit warring - they are the result of various poor behaviors in the subject area that the participants haven't changed despite having many chances to do so. I would agree that your combative behavior is of the most concern, the occasional edit wars are secondary. Especially in heated areas, collaboration with others and civility go a long way.

I wish I knew of a mentor off hand to refer you to, but I will be happy to put out some feelers and hopefully if anyone else can make a suggestion they will pipe up here. Shell 11:08, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

General restriction?

Is it possible to issue a general enforceable restriction that would make the occurrence of comments such as those less likely? They are not exactly allowed even now, but without an explicit Arbcom restriction it takes a lot of drama to enforce the relevant policies. Colchicum (talk) 15:46, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Ok, nevermind, WP:DIGWUREN and WP:AE are still there. Colchicum (talk) 16:10, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Remedies

Hi Shell, I'm not sure why Biophys was given a one year topic ban plus a consecutive one year 1 edit per week restriction while the others were only given six month topic bans, when they all have similar edit warring FoFs. There needs to be some symmetry here, as an imbalance may lead to future problems, as we have seen. Perhaps 6 month topic ban + 6 month 1 revert per week all round would be fair. The aim would be to first de-escalate via the topic ban then attempt to get them into the habit of working collaboratively together via the 1 revert rule, rather than comprehensively tar and feather only one of the participants. Drafting some additional/alternate remedies to implement this approach would give the other Arbitrators a convenient set of choices in any case. --Martin (talk) 19:19, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

The restrictions are based on considerably more than simple edit warring, though the sheer bulk of consistent edit warring did figure in to the additional revert restriction. The bulk of evidence shows Biophys to be uncooperative, incivil and disruptive in this topic area. He does not appear to recognize his bias and is still battling things from 3 or more years past despite having the issue reviewed multiple times. His edits outside this topic area do not seem to experience the same problems, thus the topic ban rather than a full site ban. If he can show that he's able to recognize the problems and resolve them after a time, an amendment request could be made to return to the area with appropriate restrictions, but we've not seen anything during the case to indicate that Biophys even acknowledges these issues. Shell 20:49, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Topic bans

I realize that one should receive 1RR restriction for edit warring, but what justifies the topic ban? What prevents me from making non-controversial changes in articles and discussions at article talk pages if I ever return to editing later? Was I uncivil or made battleground comments at the article talk pages? Why do you think that such my comment: made to explain this was the "battleground"? No, I am telling YMB29 that I am not accusing him of any wrongdoing. Besides, you are placing an indefinite ban. What exactly are you going to review after a year if I am not editing in the Rusisan/Soviet topic area and I never had any conflicts in other areas? I was never previously sanctioned by Arbcom and followed all official recommendations by Arbcom . Is that really necessary? Biophys (talk) 20:24, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Your idea of "non-controversial" changes seems to be a bit out of touch with the community at Misplaced Pages. You have significantly added to disruption in the topic area through edit warring, lack of discussion, incivil comments and fostering a battleground mentality (for example, refusing to drop issues from as many as three years back). You don't seem to understand which behaviors are a problem right now since you feel you followed all of the previous advice; the time off is a chance for you to review your behavior or even engage an experienced mentor to help you understand what is expected when editing in difficult areas. Shell 20:52, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

I obviously did not follow all advice from WP administrators, especially with regard to edit warring, but I followed all official advice from Arbcom to me (not talking with/about Commodore Sloat and unsubscribing from the EEML ). Could you please tell what exactly are you going to review later? You tell to Martin above: "If he can show that he's able to recognize the problems and resolve them after a time...". Well, I edited a lot in the area of Biology and Chemistry and might wish to return there. But I never had any problems in those areas, so it will be nothing to resolve. Do you mean that it will be enough to demonstrate lack of conflicts during editing in other areas? That's easy. As about a mentor, yes, that would be great. If you think I need some help to edit in this area, I would highly appreciate any help. Maybe that is needed rather than the topic ban? Yes, that instead of the topic ban would be great. Biophys (talk) 01:10, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

No, not having problems in areas that already weren't problematic isn't going to be enough - you've already been able to edit productively and collaboratively for some time in other topics. I can't speak for the folks that will be on ArbCom when the ban comes up for review, but it's going to take showing some understanding of your biases and problems editing in that topic, the ability to avoid battling with the other "side" and that you're going to be able to monitor your own behavior, like being able to let things go or walk away rather than create endless arguments and ill will. Shell 11:01, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Then I suggest the following. I abandon my current account because of the outing and the defamatory off-wiki posting. I start editing from a new account under 1RR restriction in the Russia/Soviet Union area, after reporting this new account to Arbcom. You appoint any trusted and totally uninvolved administrator (for example, Jeepday, DGG, Lars or Nishkid64) as my "controller". He/she review my edits any time of their choosing and either warns/advises me or imposes the topic ban restriction at his/her discretion if problems arise. Would that be working?Biophys (talk) 12:45, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Unfortunately that scenario is not an option. While editors are able to start new accounts for privacy or decide to vanish entirely, there are some limits to what you may do if you decide to start another account. See WP:CLEANSTART for details. The sanctions could obviously be worked around for the sake of privacy, but one of the things the community feels strongly about is that you do not enter the same discussions or disputes without disclosing that you are the same editor that was in these disputes before. This precludes the ability to start over for privacy and re-enter the disputed topic area.

It's also worth pointing out that things have reached this level of sanction because previous attempts did not resolve the problem. You've been adequately warned and promised to stop the disruption before; there's no reason to believe that, absent serious sanctions, you would really stop this time either. This is an opportunity to improve, to consider whether or not you can objectively work in this area given strong feelings and to avoid being removed from editing entirely. If you, or anyone else involved, would like to talk about how to handle difficult disputes, how to edit in areas that you feel strongly about, how to work productively in Misplaced Pages's dispute resolution systems or just how to avoid these kinds of consequences in the future, I would be happy to talk with you about it. In fact, if anyone has Skype, I'm happy to actually "talk" about it - I would much rather see editors be able to resolve things and get back to contributing to this project, however, that's not going to change these current sanctions which I believe are an unfortunate necessity. Shell 14:50, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

There are two different questions here. First, you are telling that all topic bans are essentially indefinite, if I understand correctly. But I do not really see how it would hurt the project if we have this topic ban for me delayed, with a trusted administrator watching my edits and applying the ban at the moment of his/her choosing if problems arise (while I am also under 1RR restriction). The second and separate question is about my account. The outing and the defamatory postings are a fact. I would therefore request a different account. If such request denied, then it will be up to me to decide if I ever want to edit in wikipedia.Biophys (talk) 15:10, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

No, I'm not saying that all topic bans are indefinite. In this case, they are and the community feels strongly that editors should not start new accounts, unlinked to the old, and start editing in the same areas/disputes. This has to do with transparency, accountability, not giving the appearance of additional support for a position and not being able to hide behind a new account and bother the same editors.

As for your topic ban, it was held off for quite some time while other things were tried to get you to change your behavior in the topic area. Misplaced Pages is not therapy - we don't expect volunteers (who have their own things to contribute) to babysit other volunteers who won't get their act together. You've had every possible chance to turn things around, now you can do so while not being a continued drain in the topic area. Hopefully other interested editors can take this time to make some actual improvements without having to deal with all the fighting and reverting. However, this is just my opinion - your suggestions will be reviewed by other Arbs and they can certainly disagree with the topic ban or propose a different remedy should they feel your approach has merit. Shell 15:25, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

"As for your topic ban, it was held off for quite some time." What are you talking about? I was never officially sanctioned by Arbcom . I had previously only one official recommendation from Arbcom addressed directly to me (not talking with/about Commodore Sloat), and I strictly followed this recommendation. I also unsubscribed from the EEML, which was your general recommendation. No, I had no second chance, and therefore ask for a second chance. You also talk about a "community opinion", but I was never a subject of community sanctions, and I do not really know about this opinion. My best guess would be that most people are doing something else and do not really care about me. Biophys (talk) 15:54, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

After five separate blocks, repeated requests to stop edit warring, suggestions at AE and seeing how other cases went that you've been involved in you still did not stop the disruption - this is what I meant about a topic ban being held off for quite some time. Shell 16:07, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Stale diff being used in PD

Shell, you have used this diff as an example of my battlefield mentality. You may like to note that this particular diff is from January 2009, which is well before the EEML case, and therefore outside the timeline of evidence the committee itself said it would be considering. If this is no mistake, two things in reference to this diff. The message as posted on Offliner's talk page is not an incitement to battle, but rather to discuss issues on the talk page. This particular message was posted to Offliner because he had previously been involved in cleaning up the article. The message itself to Offliner was clearly made out in the open, and even suggested that editors should consider taking the article to AfD yet again. Additionally, this diff and this article was previously entered into evidence at WP:EEML, which one can see at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Eastern_European_mailing_list/Evidence/Russavia#Web_brigades. Note my comments in that evidence about WP being a battleground. Please review this, and make the necessary adjustments to the PD. --Russavia 05:46, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

The other diffs were more current and that one shows that clearly this is a long standing problem. When reviewing the evidence and involved editor's contribs, it became clear that some of these problems had existed for years and despite many chances to change their behavior, most hadn't. There's an "us against them" mentality here that's set two groups of editors so firmly against each other that they don't seem to realize when they are being inappropriate. Shell 10:56, 19 May 2010 (UTC)