Talk:Trojan War - Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Valkyrie Red (talk | contribs) at 22:22, 27 May 2010 (→Deletion of editors' comments). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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March 9, 2007	Featured article candidate	Not promoted
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The First Sentence

I don't think that it's appropriate to have written that Paris "fucked" Helen. You may argue that its true, but I think "had an affair" or similar would be more appropriate. No, I'm not a middle-aged woman who complains loads, I a normally non-complaining 17 year old, but I feel that thats quite rude to write that on there.

Yes, sorry you caught that. You read a vandalised version of the article, which has now been corrected. You are quite right, that is not the tone that is used in an encyclopedia. IdreamofJeanie (talk) 13:27, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Oh I didn't relaise the vandalism topics on here. It's fine. Don't really know why people find it funny to do that...? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.108.102.108 (talk) 11:34, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Dagger (typography)

What's the †dagger for, please? --Old Moonraker (talk) 09:25, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

If you're referring to the daggers in the infobox by characters like Priam, Hector, and Paris, it means that they die during the war. However, this infobox is inappropriate for a mythological conflict, because it gives the casual reader the impression that the war actually happened. I'm therefore taking the infobox out. This issue has been discussed before, and there's never been consensus that there should be an infobox here; in fact, there's been a consensus that the infobox doesn't belong. --Akhilleus (talk) 02:11, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Yep, that was my guess but, as you say, it doesn't fit here. Support the deletion. --Old Moonraker (talk) 09:07, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Returning the Infobox

I have read the above argument and I still think that there should be an infobox for this. Most of you may think that the even wasn't real, however, plenty of scholars have said that this event was real. The ruins of the city was even discovered. As for the facts and figures, Bettany Hughes Non-Fiction book Helen of Troy states all those listed. If you actually took the time to look through the footnotes, than you'd have read that.--Valkyrie Red (talk) 21:43, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

There's a Bronze Age settlement that was probably Troy (although there is no definitive evidence that the city was Troy—rather, circumstantial evidence establishes that it probably was Troy). There were widespread disturbances in the late Bronze Age that may have in some way inspired the myths of the Trojan War. However, that's a far cry from saying that the mythology of the Trojan War is historically accurate, or that there were actual people named Odysseus, Achilles, Priam, and so on. Sadly, the article doesn't do a very good job of explaining the relationship between history and mythology, but I doubt you would find "plenty of scholars" who would take the second book of the Iliad and confidently state the number of Greek forces in the war based on that. So, no, we shouldn't have an infobox that implies a mythological war actually happened. --Akhilleus (talk) 00:23, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I still don't see why there is no need for an infobox. An infobox's purpose is to provide the reader with an overview of the article, while the article is too explain the infobox's information. In the first sentence, this article states in Greek mythology, therefore the reader knows that this even may or may not be true. Why should you try to close an open clam?--Valkyrie Red (talk) 02:22, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Because it's not an "open clam". No one thinks the Trojan War as told in Greek mythology actually happened. No scholar thinks that 866000 Greeks fought against 676000 Trojans + allies for 10 years. No scholar thinks that a person named Agamemnon led this war. In any case, the important material in this article is the narrative of the war—the Judgment of Paris, the abduction of Helen, the death of Palamedes, and so on. If you think an infobox should provide an overview of the article, that's what should go in there, not a dressed-up list of characters and some back-of-the-envelope calculations based on Book 2 of the Iliad. But no one's come up with an infobox to sum up narratives yet... --Akhilleus (talk) 03:49, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Akhilleus is correct. Modern scholars do not think that there was a Trojan war as describe by Homer, and there should be no infobox. Dougweller (talk) 06:21, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Foolish remark on your part Akhilleus. Saying that no one thinks the Trojan War existed is complete bias, and doesn't maintain a neutral point of view on your part. Bettany Hughes, as I have stated earlier, is a historian who has written a book regarding the war, as well as created documentarys. Finding one person is all I need to do to counter your "no one thinks" claim.--Valkyrie Red (talk) 11:21, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Now, since you two seem to think that an infobox should only be used for 100% proven conflicts, please, do show me the Wikipedian article that states this.--Valkyrie Red (talk) 11:21, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Now, since you two seem to be stuck on the fact that infobox's should only be used for 100% proven conflicts, please, do show me the Wikipedian page that says this.--Valkyrie Red (talk) 11:18, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, nothing new to bring to the discussion but may I reiterate a point already made, because seemingly it has not been grasped by some? This article is about a legend, not a war. Using the military conflict infobox to "to summarize information about a particular military conflict...in a standard manner" for a legend is using it inappropriately. --Old Moonraker (talk) 12:49, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Once again an ignorant remark posted. There is plenty of evidence that states this war was real, not legendary. You are letting your own personal opinions judge your support. You are one of the people that sees this war as being fake.

But, going to the military box, the article states the following "A military conflict box, may be used to summarize information about a particular military conflict....". Where exactly in that sentence (let alone article) does it state that the conflict has to have been proven real 100%? To save you time, my fellow editors, it doesn't. We can all agree that this "event" was a conflict of some kind, whether or not it has been completely proven (which is divided). Therefore, a war box is allowed to be used.--Valkyrie Red (talk>) 19:48, 25 May 2010 (UTC)>

But no one agrees with you, so can we drop this? You aren't bringing up any new arguments, and presumably you aren't going to put it back against consensus. Dougweller (talk) 20:04, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

I can't find a statement by Hughes saying that Homer's tale of the Trojan war is accurate, but did find "Hughes draws particularly on the work of the Swiss scholar Joachim Latacz, whose recent book on Troy claimed that Homer’s epics contain authentic memories of a Trojan war. Yet not even Latacz argues that Helen — or the heroes who fought over her, come to that — ever existed as historical characters; and what Hughes nowhere acknowledges is that Latacz’s book was written as a response to scholars who ferociously disagree with his arguments. The entire fabulous edifice of her theme, in other words, has been raised on dangerously shifting sands." Suggesting that there was a war or wars that are the basis of Homer's tale does not make Homer's tale accurate. We are still left with a myth, and the only infobox that would be aoppropriate would be one for fiction. Dougweller (talk) 20:18, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

I wish I'd looked at his talk page earlier, Valkyrie Red is just a couple of days off a 2 week block for "repeated disruptive editing and for treating Misplaced Pages like a WP:BATTLEGROUND." Dougweller (talk) 20:32, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

"5 blocks so far, and each of them has been for the same offense". Patience in admins is obviously a very necessary qualification. --Old Moonraker (talk) 20:42, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

What exactly do my past offenses have to do with this? I am not edit-warring. Just having a conversation with you editors. Now, you have completely ignored my statement. A war box may be used for any conflict, not just proven ones. Therefore, a war box would be allowed for this.--Valkyrie Red (talk) 20:50, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

But you are not having a conversation, you are simply repeating yourself. After a point such repetition becomes disruptive. You say an edit box can be used for any conflict, which would include fictional ones, everyone else disagrees. It really is time for you to drop this. Dougweller (talk) 21:13, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

All right, I'll drop this. No wonder conservapedia was created. This website really is full of bias.--Valkyrie Red (talk) 22:15, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Deletion of editors' comments

User:Valkyrie Red seems to have been tidying this talk page. I'm sure he/she has a good reason for deleting, by way of example, this post from long-standing contributor Paul August, but it seems relevant to current discussions. Generally speaking deleting other editors' talk page comments is thought of as, at best, poor etiquette—policy here. Apologies, of course, if I'm missing something or my interpretation of the page history is faulty. --Old Moonraker (talk) 14:46, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

My apologies good sir. I was just trying to help clean up the talk page of useless posts. If that was wrong of me, then please, by all means rollback everything I did--Valkyrie Red (talk) 19:41, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Readding the Picture

Yeah, when you guys unfairly removed the infobox from the article, you removed the image. Now I don't know about you, but that image looks quite good on the article and I would really appreciate it if you returned it.--Valkyrie Red (talk) 22:22, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

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