Talk:Eli Soriano - Misplaced Pages

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Initial comments

I added the fact of nuissance candidate declaration by comelec. I also added the rape case.

--Florentino floro 12:02, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

add rape case.

--Florentino floro 12:18, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

i deleted those articles coz i find it not necessary to be posted here @wiki...

One category of Legal and Court Cases

The nuissance candidate issue and rape issue being charged of Eliseo Soriano was trimmed down into one category: Legal and Court Cases. This aspect still needs to be cleaned to reach the standards of an encyclopedia. --Julianmakabayan 00:13, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Indeed they need to be to encyclopedic standard. They are now, because I have fixed them. Please do not make edits which remove pertinent information and/or add contentious information, with the edit summary "Formatting and clean edit to reflect encyclopedic style of Misplaced Pages.)". I removed your addition alleging Veridiano has been accused of sexual molestation and assault of teenagers. We would need to be able to cite police/court sources to justify such an allegation, and certainly not the say so of a lawyer representing the person accused of raping Veridiano. I have also altered the flow of the article. The section dealing with awards/recognitions needs to be lower where I have put it. Also, it contains many entries which hardly seem to merit inclusion in an encyclopedia. Also, most entries are unsourced. Would you like to trim that list? Moriori 22:42, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Nuisance candidate

I removed the most recent addition which partly stated "Comelec said Soriano does not have the capability to launch a nationwide campaign". According to the official Comelec report, Soriano and others were declared nuisance/disqualified "for the reasons that they cannot wage a national campaign, and/or are not nominated by a political party or are not supported by a registered political party with a national constituency". The addition to the article gave (unsourced) comment on a selective part of the reason/s for disqualification. Not very encyclopedic. Moriori 02:37, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

The source of the comment was there all along, you just did not read through it. Read it again, please: OMNIBUS RESOLUTION No. 6604 Click and read the sentence below disqualified candidate number 39.

Here's the whole sentence:

Prescinding therefrom, the Commission, after carefully evaluating the pleadings including documentary evidence thereof, submitted in connection with the disqualification of the mentioned candidates, RESOLVED as it hereby RESOLVES to DENY the motios for reconsideration and to AFFIRM COMELEC Resolution No. 6558 disqualifying the following candidates:
--- 'list of disqualified candidates here' --
for the reasons that they cannot wage a national campaign, and/or are not nominated by a political party or are not supported by a registered political party with a national constituency.

signed: --Journeyist 05:03, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Controversial

Please do not remove the word controversial. My dictionary defines controversial as giving rise or likely to give rise to public disagreement -- contentious, disputed, at issue, disputable, debatable, arguable, vexed, tendentious. The article clearly states he criticises various other religious groups for their doctrines and practices, that he faces charges for rape, that he was declared a nuisance senatorial candidate and was disqualified from an election. That makes him controversial, by any definition. Incidentally, isn't it "coincidental" that after Misplaced Pages used his own website as a source for "controversial", the word was removed from his website. Moriori 21:24, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Furthermore, in the very first paragraph of its OMNIBUS RESOLUTION No. 6604, Comelec stated the following -- "Once again, the noble right of suffrage is used as cloak to serve the caprices of a few who want to mock our democratic processes as the May 10, 2004 Naitonal and Local Elections approacehs. This Commission will never be an instrument to such inclinations since it is duty-bound to uphold the time-honored principle of vox populi, vox dei. " Any capricious person who wants to mock the democratic process of the country is controversial. Moriori 03:18, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the same Comelec who declared Bro. Soriano to be a "nuisance" candidate and a "capricious" person is itself (by Moriori's standards) even more controversial because it is universally hated in the Philippines for being the institution that made possible the Hello Garci Election Scandal. Moriori, you clearly must conduct a deeper study of Philippine society and Philippine government before drawing conclusions from superficial facts you happen to find on establishment websites. Our Comelec is not the same respectable electoral institution you may have in your country. Your political leaders do not count on political support from shrewd religious leaders such as those in our country whom Bro. Soriano stand against. Moriori, you do not know the political cost of speaking the biblical truth in the Philippines. We are a marginalized religious minority with powerful enemies in the Philippine media, government and established religion. I hope you will be little more objective. Journeyist 04:45, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Criticisms

i deleted the first paragraph, because those statements are baseless and inaccurate. Mr. Soriano's manner of preaching is not 'often' a target of criticism. In fact, he has received numerous citations and recognitions coming from different award giving bodies --- all of which came from groups with different religious denominations (see the awards and recognitions section). He is also not 'fond' of attacking his 'religious opponent'. One who religiously tunes in to his broadcasts on TV and radio, will 'realize' that Mr. Soriano is just prompted to answer all those who ask questions to him regarding salvation, the bible, God, etc. For one who is teaching the truth to be reliable and accurate must always also point out the false. This is not 'attacking' in its real essence. Mickey0000 03:15, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Bro. Eli, A phenomena

There is no doubt, and I confirm that Bro. Eli has no duplicate in the entire world, even in Ateneo EAPI. I studied pre-divinity at the Ateneo, 1972, where I met the best of Catholic Philippinea most powerful priests and foreign Ph.D.s, like my classmate Fr. Archie Intengan, S.J. But I never found any foreign doctors who could match Eli's phenomena.

Bro. Eli is a phenomena as far as BIBLE memorization or citing is concerned, he is a dictionary.

However, I find his biting and negativism vs other sects diminishing his positive gains.

Maybe it is due to his emotional setting.

--Florentino floro 08:39, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

My Recent Reverts

I am not trying to start an edit war but I have been reverting some edits which are POV and which are also rather poor English. I don't think the author is editing in bad faith but it is clear that different people have different views and it is hard to be impartial. Soriano is a controvercial figure and we should not take sides in his arguments. Perhaps the wording is a bit harsh in places but we can't have a whitewash either. We need to avoid anecodotal claims and counter-claims. If there is no supporting references then it is better to remove them completely. If there are references for both views then both can be included.

I would also like to explain why "Rape case" is the correct title for the section and "Alleged rape case" is wrong. The rape is an allegation because we don't know if that really happened but the case itself is real not alleged. To say "alleged rape case" is to say that it is disputed whether there is/was a court case. I know this is a bit subtle but the title as it is does not imply his guilt and should stay as it is. --DanielRigal (talk) 18:20, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Oh dear. An edit war it seems to be. Please can somebody else jump in and try to break the deadlock here? --DanielRigal (talk) 15:28, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

The article, to me, can be in perfect neutrality. See picture. Also, a very pessimistic user, does not believe in the video of Gawad Amerika awarding Soriano and giving him a title of the most sensible preacher in our time. I support what Wikiuserphil wants, that Soriano's awards (2) must be mentioned in this article. Dar book (Complains?) 10:16, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Hello Puppetmaster, the so-called Gawad America is a non-notable "award" created by Soriano's organization for the purpose of giving him an award. Be realistic, what authentic and honorable award giving body would award this fugitive Soriano? The name "Most Sensible Preacher" award is a clear give away. Have you seen any authentic and honorable award giving body giving this kind of award? An award must be longstanding and prestigious to merit mention in an encyclopedic article. Now, with regards to the Philippine Web Awards, was it Soriano who made their website? Soriano Usurped the award meant for whoever is the webmaster of their website. How can you put a best website award in an article about Soriano? Is he the website? Did he create the website? We must also look at the validity of this Philippine Web Awards. I browsed through their website and it doesn't give the name of the people running the award, it is a suspiciously anonymous award giving body who never fails to award the websites of Eli Soriano and his nephew Daniel Razon. I would bet my bottom dollar that this Philippine Web Awards is just another proganda machinery of this most anomalous religious syndicate headed by the fugitive Eli Soriano. – Shannon Rose (talk) 18:32, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Check the earlier Philippine Web Awards (2001 and earlier), was the Ang Dating Daan website given an award back then? Also, I'll tell you the truth on how somebody's website be given an award here, first nominate them, second tell tehm a reason on why the website is notable then they'll award if if there are many people accesing and viewing the website. Usually 2 million above. Soriano's followers do not total 2 million + and so, do you think his followers simultaneously accessed the website to bypass the limit. Tsk, still another pessimistic response. Also, Soriano can't pay for many artists to come in the what you claim Fake Gawad Amerkia and be awarded. He is a fugitive and can't pay the bail for the two counts of rape filed by Veridiano (one ADD members who turned to an INC member) which was dismissed but then reopened by the Philippine's Justice Secretary. Also, "if there is no website, it doen't exist", there is no policy like that. Only a very pessimistic user who only thinks that the church is using WP as propaganda will think about things like that. Dar book (Complains?) 08:30, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

It is not a question of whether Soriano can or cannot pay for the plain tickets of the so-called awardees (of course he can, he is a big time swindler and owns many businesses) because the "awardees" would gladly pay the tickets themselves. It is also not true that Eli Soriano cannot pay the bail for his homosexual rape case, being a fugitive has nothing to do with his inability to pay bail, it has all to do with running from and refusing to face the law and refusing to accept whatever judgement is ruled by the courts. With regards to the Philippine Web Awards, who set it up? Who are the officers? Who are the judges? It is completely anonymous. A fictitious non-notable award where Soriano and Razon's websites always win. Whether I am pessimistic or optimistic is none of your business. Bottom line is you are a member of this most anomalous religious syndicate, you don't follow WP guidelines, you cannot speak English, you cannot provide reliable third-party published sources, and you have been proven to use a sockpuppet to abuse your editing privileges. To be quite honest, I don't know what you are still doing here. The article has been protected because of you, you are just a nuisance here. – Shannon Rose (talk) 15:10, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Here look at this. It is about the Philippine Web Award's history, Soriano does not always win in this award winning body! Check their archives before judging it. Here, check this. Did Soriano win there? Still don't believe, check the other archieves. He only got the award on 2004, while the Phil Web Awards was already running way back in 1998. I'm a Nuiscance? You have crossed the line, and this is my last straw! My edits in non-related articles were not reverted, and even sometimes appreciated. Also, Wikiuserphil is not my sock, he has been an editor even before I first showed up. Not only that, I didn't even know the wiki guidlines before. Your lucky, because this might be my last post here, since I have work comming. But rest assured, whenever I have time, I will watch this page, but not edit it anymore. You have been warned by the admin who blocked my sock. You are harassing me. He said it himself. I need a vacation. WP is my only hobby, and you messed up all my plans! This gives me stress and I'm going to plan a break. I don't edit this article anymore. Let the other COI editors handle it. Can't we just settle this peacefully? Goodbye. Dar book (Complains?) 07:56, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Dar book here you are again posting nothing but nonsense. Where did I accuse you of being Wikiuserphil's puppeteer? Yours is a ridiculous attempt to confuse the readers of this talk page. You are the confirmed puppeteer of Defenz 07 not Wikiuserphil. Nobody is even mentioning Wikiuserphil. Now, about the links you provided, where there do they actually give out the names of the people who make up the so-called "award giving body" in question? Again, you have proven my point that this non-notable "award", who would always award the websites of Soriano and his nephew Daniel Razon, is completely anonymous and therefore suspicious and spurious. Let me give you an example of a notable award worth mentioning in an encyclopedia entry, the Nobel Prize. Look at how transparent an authentic award giving body is, here is the board of directors of the foundation that runs the award. Also, it doesn't really matter if the spurious Philippine Web Awards awarded Soriano in the beginning or not, fake awards would tend to make themselves look credible first by awarding other people, or else it would be too obvious. Use your brain, Dar book, snap out of the cult conditioning! I'll tell you what, If you can give us any reliable third-party published source saying anything positive about Soriano himself then I will be more than happy to include it in the article myself, unfortunately there exists no such thing, which should really make you think twice about your idol. – Shannon Rose (talk) 15:27, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I understand. But I still sense bias in your edits. One thing is that you don't remove unreferenced non-promotional negative facts while you instantly removed unreferenced promotional facts. Also, not all websites will post their board of directors. Also, I did found this website, GMA is a known and trusted NEWS STATION. Dar book (Complains?) 10:15, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Oh, it's you again. No one is contesting that Soriano did receive the so-called award. My point is that the "award" is not notable enough to merit mention in an encyclopedia article. Also, we are not talking about "board of directors of websites". A website need not necessarily have a "board of directors". Even you can create your own website without the need for officers. We are talking about this spurious Philippine Web Awards being completely anonymous, in contrast with authentic award-giving bodies who would always devulge their leadership to the public. The mention of the board of directors of the Nobel Prize was just meant to support this. Your problem is you are always confused about what is being discussed. If you don't have the capacity to understand simple logic then how can you edit an encyclopedia? No wonder 99% of all your edits are being reverted by other editors, and that up to now you are still uploading illegal images to Misplaced Pages. All you do is bring chaos and garbage to Misplaced Pages. – Shannon Rose (talk) 00:50, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

A little clarification, the images were orphaned because somebody removed the link to those images in the main article. The copyright of those images were not questioned by anybody nor they reverted 40% of my edits to the main article of the said pictures. Please try to read the said complaint before accusing me of uploading illegal images to Misplaced Pages and bring chaos and garbage to Misplaced Pages. Dar book (Complains?) 12:11, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Bail

In November 2006, a arrest warrant against Soriano was issued by Judge Lucina Dayaon, Macabebe, RTC Branch 54. Eliseo Soriano on June 21, 2008, posted P 240,000 bail for another 2 counts of rape, before Judge Silvino Pampilo, Jr., Manila Regional Trial, after surrendering to a police Station 10 jailer Jun Gumaruin, Pandacan, Manila to avoid being apprehension. The indictment or criminal "Information" states that: "Soriano took advantage of his moral ascendancy and/or influence to direct his subordinate to come into his room, massage him and have anal intercourse, around 1:30 p.m. of May 17, 2000. The sexual acts were done against the will and consent, and to the damage and prejudice of the complainant, who was also a religious." Gumaru said: "He was not into hiding, and he was not arrested."Inquirer.net, Dating Daan’s Ely Soriano posts bail--Florentino floro (talk) 12:12, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Manila Standard Today however, reported that Regional State Prosecutor Jaime Umpa, as Pampanga assistant provincial prosecutor, was instrumental in the filing of criminal cases against Eliseo Soriano, the most vocal critic of the Iglesia ni Cristo. In this regard, Umpa's boss, Raul M. Gonzalez’s chief of staff, Undersecretary Fidel Exconde, is a leading member of the INC.manilastandardtoday.com, Handcuffed Meralco executives?--Florentino floro (talk) 07:38, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

"Vandalism" (News Quotes)

Would editors please stop accusing each other of vandalism over the removal and readding of the news quotes. This is a good faith content dispute, not vandalism. Vandalism is when somebody knows that what they are doing is wrong and deliberately makes the article worse. I am sure that this does not apply here. I know that there have been editors seeking to remove critical material from this article, which rightly puts us on guard, but the removal of the news quotes seems legitimate to me. If anybody disagrees we can discuss it here, but lets stop reverting and accusing eachother. --DanielRigal (talk) 10:34, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

It seems that "vandalism" is a broad term, and used incorrectly by those who are inexperienced in Misplaced Pages. The issue at hand is about the way it's written may constitute a WP:LIVING violation, as it's giving undue weight to a negative incident. If we are to still keep it on the article, we need it formatted so it flows in with the article, not stand out, not to mention the possibility of copyright issues. I've seen other articles include short snippets (less than 3 or 4 sentences) of that quoted reference in the citation. Maybe that could be better? --w 10:49, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

After looking at what was emphasized. I feel that it should be included in the article as it documents what the prosecution believes what happened during the incidents, and is a help to that section. So I went ahead and added it to the beginning of the section. --w 11:28, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I am in complete agreement with what you did and believes that the whole article is, in its present form, presentable and quite informative. If we can gradually get rid of the self-serving (POV) bits and pieces scatered here and there then we are close to having a good article here. Kudos to DanielRigal for bringing this matter into concensus. – Shannon Rose (talk) 18:15, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Falsification

This shows that Soriano's bail and release were fraudulent and therefore he was sued for falsification: "Investigation showed that Soriano never surrendered nor was he arrested or detained at the Pandacan station on June 21, but a certificate of detention was still issued on his behalf by Pandacan Police Officer 3 June Gumaru, said Criminal Investigation and Detection Group-Manila chief Superintendent Joaquin Alva." So, I must re-add this, so that this Misplaced Pages article would be neutral and verifiable as to the fact of bail and release.--Florentino floro (talk) 07:24, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Defaced Misplaced Pages Page for Preacher Eliseo Soriano

Obviously, this page should be declared defaced in many levels.

Many information, accounts and even references placed here are speculations, malicious and curiously deceptive.

For one, this biography page reflects nothing but the sordid affairs of the elite few who have the power to impose their own rules. Rules that lean more to favor their whims and likings. Rules, when questioned, are obviously not one bound for thorough review or balanced inspection.

There are few questions that beg to be answered?

1. It WP prohibits entries that will promote, advertise or praise a certain person or thing, does this then give rights or freedom to fault-finders, sock puppets and enemies of the person with a page to vandalize, and assume their role as vanguards of what they termed as "true, accurate" information? What true, accurate and credible information can we expect from enemies?

2. WP, which was founded based on the spirit of collaboration, free exchange of true, accurate and verifiable information, is now losing this quality over the years. One reason for this degradation is brought about by quack editors and quasi-righteous users. Should we expect certainty in rough, wild waters of collaboration?

3. Why is this page, together with other pages connected to this preacher, loaded with vile attacks and negativity that will put to shame the WP pages of the world's most notorious criminals? Why then are the pages of the people this preacher exposes glowing clean as if these are people brought here by the heavens? See: http://en.wikipedia.org/Felix_Manalo . Then look at Eli Soriano's WP page. Compare.

Petersantos (talk) 08:28, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't think "defaced" is the right term. Defacement means blatant vandalism and covers obscene messages, gibberish, nonsense, blatant hoaxes and the like. I don't see that here at the moment although there has also been genuine defacement in the past, much of it defamatory and homophobic.

What we may have is a lack of balance. There have been people trying to whitewash the article by removing everything negative and others keen to add more negative coverage. With both sides pushing as hard as they can, it is possible that one side has succeeded in pushing it too far one way. If you can point to any specific aspects of the negative coverage which are not sourced to reliable sources then they can be looked at, and removed, if they are unsubstantiated. Negative coverage should not be over done (see WP:Undue) but we can't ignore significant things like the pending rape case or the arrest warrant, if they are true. That said, we should also include balanced coverage of Soriano's own explanations of these matters. --DanielRigal (talk) 15:17, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for showing your deep concern to bringing WP's credibility and integrity restored.

My concerns personally are entries that appear conclusive based on the trial being staged through the publicity via the media and the press. By simply knowing the state and ills of Philippine press, you will realize that among the qualities of news presentation in this country are tainted with sensationalism, malice and even pornography.

Religious bias, especially one hurled against the preacher, Eliseo Soriano, is a reality. In the Philippines, even a three year old child knows his programs on television and can sing the Ang Dating Daan (The Old Path) program's jingle. That is how popular this evangelist has become. As his popularity jumps, his enemies increases also. One is the powerful and influential Iglesia ni Cristo, the powerful sect who can make or break a politician's dream of winning top posts in the government.

One particular issue that stirred negative perception among people against Soriano was the multiple suspension and ban orders imposed by the Movie Television Review Classification Board or MTRCB. In a way and finally caught the attention of one Philippine university's Law Review Journal who reviewed the case and concluded that the whole brouhaha surrounding the MTRCB's decision erroneously and maliciously put Soriano in the bad light. The law review journal's analysis confirmed that Soriano's right to freedom to express and his inherent right as broadcaster were abused. -- Petersantos (talk) 17:48, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Please be informed that Petersantos, like fellow Eli Soriano follower Dar book, has been permanently blocked from editing Misplaced Pages due to abuse of account privileges (i.e. using a sock puppet to whitewash a duly-sourced article).

Misplaced Pages is, above all, an encyclopedia, and its articles should only use reliable, third-party, published sources. Editors like Petersantos and Dar book seek to undermine the integrity of those reliable sources by using all sorts of trickery and deception to inject unsourced promotional bits and pieces in an obvious attempt to sanitize the article which, I believe, is reflective of the ways and character of their leader and organization as a whole.

Please stay vigilant as incarnations of Petersantos a.k.a. Journeyist a.k.a. Patrick Lim a.k.a. OQtE5AokaDv4 etc. are destined to resurface from the inner recesses of what seems to be the most notorious pseudo-Christian movement in the Philippines. - Shannon Rose (talk) 19:06, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

I am sorry to say this, but your response is quite harsh, Shannon Rose. You didn't even comment about the topic. Instead, you kept on trying to put "Soriano-fanatics" (sorry for this term) in a bad light. You also "went to far" by maligning their organization and calling it the most notorious pseudo-Christian movement in the Philippines. I am not blaming you directly, considering the fact that this article "has been abused by COI editors and their sockpuppets". In my opinion, the first paragraph of the article is biased. I am not saying that we must remove the international fugitive part since is is backed by valid, reliable RS. Reading the other discussions in the talk page, it made me realize that this article was the "battleground" for many edit wars done by COI editors. Comparing Soriano's lead paragraph with that of Warren Jeffs, I really believe that the international fugitive part should be placed in the 2nd paragraph of the lead section. It does not necessarily mean that Soriano is not notable for being an "international fugitive", but for the sake of neutrality (and to prevent others from being too angry, {refering to an anon's reaction at the bottom section}) the first article must only discuss his basic information. (See also the subsection below POV-intro)IronBreww (talk) 08:25, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Hi IronBreww, please realize that you are replying to a post made almost one-and-a-half years ago. There has just been a recent discussion about this issue that was well-participated by yourself and where your concerns have already been addressed. I believe that you received similar answers from editors and admins that you recently engaged through their talk pages and even contacted privately by way of email. If you have a new rationale to offer in support of your old position, or if you found new references to strengthen it, then please discuss it in the appropriate section instead of replying on a stale conversation. This one should have been archived a long time ago to prevent raising the dead tactics. – Shannon Rose 13:16, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Oh my, Misplaced Pages you need to hang your head in shame

The very first reference for this article comes from the website of -- guess who? The subject of the article. That's who. The whole article is a crock. What happened to so called Misplaced Pages objectivity? Very sad. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.152.176.181 (talk) 21:11, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

There's a load of templates and tags you can use to dispute whatever you see on the article. Instead of badmouthing the project, why don't you do something about it? What makes the article a crock, what could be done to change that? These comments are not helping anything. --w

I don't need templates to dispute what I see in this article, or to call it a crock. I don't know about your previous editing of Wiki but if your response to me here is any indication then I think you need to start again and accept that it is more important that Wiki is well written, accurate, neutral and objective. Tell us if you think this a good article (I do not mean GA). Regarding you urging me to do something abut it, why do you think there are so many people on Wiki who will never edit an article because they know their efforts will be constantly removed by the POV pushers? Making a point on a talk page might achieve little in your opinion, but it wastes a hell of a lot less time for the editor. And it unearths people who might be more interested in lecturing other editors rather than insisting on quality articles in Wiki. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.152.176.181 (talk) 07:07, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

What? I thought this was supposed to be a BLP!

I edited this BLP article in good faith, removing a claim in the intro that the subject is an international fugitive. There are two references regarding this, and one of them says he surrendered to the court and was freed on bail (so he can't be a fugitive). Remember what Jimbo Wales said about Biographies of Living Persons? He said "we have a really serious responsibility to get things right.". Remember what BlP also says? It says '"poorly sourced contentious material about living persons—whether the material is negative, positive, or just questionable—should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion". I removed the contentious claim because it is poorly sourced, with one reference contradicting the other. It has now been restored by a user who wonders if I am a banned user called petersantos. I am not. I simply want to make wiki more encyclopedic, but the two users who restored the information, User:Conrad940 and User:Shannon Rose clearly want POV retained, to the detriment of Misplaced Pages. Shame on you both.

Also, I removed the claim that "Soriano is popular for criticizing various other religious groups...." Read that again. And again. The leader of a minority group is popular for criticizing other religious groups? Pigs might fly. I also did a brief general edit which improved the aticle. Naturally enough, it was deleted by the pov pushers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.152.164.160 (talk) 01:18, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

hi, please read the rest of the content. immediately following the newspaper story about him surrendering, another report came out saying he falsified his surrender. meaning he didn't really surrender. I've put a bullet so it won't be missed again. i hope this clears up things for you. Conrad940 (talk) 05:49, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Soriano is an international fugitive, it is a duly-sourced fact. Reliable, third-party, published sources are used in compliance with WP:RS. A broadsheet newspaper article came out saying that he surrendered, but after that another broadsheet newspaper article came out saying that it was faked and he did not really surrender. Can't you read? If he is really on bail and not a fugitive (an international fugitive at that) then why is he on the Interpol wanted list in the Interpol official website??? The link to that website is also used as reference in the article. Here it is. Your leader is a wanted man, you can cry blood but you won't be able to whitewash that reality. Your leader is wanted by the Philippine government and the Interpol for homosexual rape. If you type his name on the Google toolbar the suggestions "Eli Soriano rape case" and "Eli Soriano Interpol" automatically come up. Your leader is notable for 1. being an international fugitive and 2. being a leader of a religious group. The truth is that you are no other than perma-blocked user Petersantos a.k.a. Journeyist a.k.a. Patrick Lim a.k.a. OQtE5AokaDv4 etc., etc. You are not editing in good faith. You are editing with a heavy POV. Stop idiotizing the editors here. We know who you are. – Shannon Rose (talk) 18:37, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

POV-intro

The introduction to this article needs to be a summary of the entire article. As it is right now, it doesn't give the gist of why he's controversial, which tips it as positive POV. As with many articles I come around this project, the first sentence should always be name, birth date and place, and occupation. Deviating from that for any reason can be grounds of pushing a certain point of view. Since "fugitive" is not an occupation, I removed it and I might add a sentence as to why he is. Also there should be sources on the intro as well. --w 10:52, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

I have reinstated the fugitive part because the first sentence is usually a justification of notability, be it fame or notoriety, and not just a declaration of the subject's occupation (at the moment a Google search for Eli Soriano fugitive returns 1,590 hits). In view of notability "international fugitive" is more pressing than "controversial Filipino televangelist" and so it took precedence. It would be anti-climatic to reverse their positions. Nevertheless, I am for the improvement of the article and have nothing against restructuring the first paragraph to make it more encyclopedic. Perhaps we can learn something from the Warren Jeffs article as it is excellently written. Eli Soriano may also be fitting for WP:CRIME. – Shannon Rose (talk) 14:10, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Warren Jeffs is a great template to work with when it comes to this article, because his status within a church as well as his criminal actions are similar to Soriano. It shows what I was intending to do later on with this. But one thing I realized is that "fugitive" is only temparary. There's a chance he will be caught, and it will no longer be accurate once he's caught. I'll welcome the Crime WikiProject to help us out on this. I think they know more about handling articles like this than WikiProject Christianity. --w 20:07, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Shannon Rose. And I even think that "accused rapist" gives a more accurate description if what looking for is a "gist of why he's controversial". But that would be too much and would probably violate some WP policy. Conrad940 (talk) 16:13, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

On being impartial

You might want to check out the following link as it clarifies some allegations (most especially on the interpol and bureau of immigration issues) in this wikipedia article that are said to be "truthful". http://www.zimbio.com/Bro.+Eliseo+F.+Soriano/articles/31/Interpol+Wanted+People+Choice+Awardee+Truth 121.1.61.208 (talk) 16:21, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I have to decline your proposal. A blog entry written by a follower of the subject cannot be impartial and grossly fails WP:RS. The article, in its present form, is adequately-referenced using reliable, third-party, published sources, which is defined as "credible published materials with a reliable publication process; their authors are generally regarded as trustworthy or authoritative in relation to the subject at hand." Blogs and websites connected to Soriano or his followers in any way are not acceptable since coverage should be from "reliable sources that are independent of the subject" (as per WP:GNG). Thank you for taking time to discuss your concerns. – Shannon Rose (talk) 09:49, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

We need the facts, not spin

It seems that friends of Soriano are editing again. I am not going to revert them on the spot as they are making points that would be valid if they were proven:

That the case against Soriano has been dismissed
That the Interpol red notice does not constitute an arrest warrant.

The first point is very important if it is true but the huge chunk of verbiage added lacks any references except one which is transparently irrelevant. Does anybody have references for it? If it is true that he has been acquitted then we have to rewrite the article significantly to reduce coverage of the matter and make it clear that the charge ended in acquittal. If it is not true then we need to revert the whole lot.

The second point is arguable. The Interpol web site does say that "An Interpol Red Notice is not an international arrest warrant." however it is clearly something quite similar. The purpose of a red notice is described as "To seek the arrest or provisional arrest of wanted persons with a view to extradition". We should modify the article to reflect this distinction however there is no justification for removing the phrase "international fugitive" (unless the case really has been dropped) as Interpol lists the red notices under the category of "Fugitives" and the service handling them is called "Fugitive investigative services".

So, we need facts! This article is not meant to be pro or anti Soriano. If somebody can dig up the true and up-to-date facts of the matter we can make sure that the article does not overstate or underplay the significance of these events. --DanielRigal (talk) 15:11, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

I have removed the "arrest warrant" again as we can't call it that if Interpol themselves do not. If there is some other wording that captures the effect of the red notice without using the term "arrest warrant" then that should replace the removed text. --DanielRigal (talk) 14:37, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

is it spin? who's to judge? whether it is or not, the readers can decide themselves by checking facts. Or if you wan't go ahead and add an explanation. but don't censor. that is what's in the source, it is even in it's title. Conrad940 (talk) 01:43, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

By spin, I meant that we occasionally have pro and anti Soriano people in here trying to tilt the article from time to time and that we can't allow this. In the most recent case the pro-Soriano camp used a rather minor but valid objection (the precise status of the red notices) as an excuse to remove all reference to him as a fugitive. That was spin.

Your new text is fine. It deals with the valid objection while not letting the pro-Soriano camp downplay the seriousness of the matter.

As for the claim that the charges are dropped, I think the lack of any attempt to reference it speaks volumes. I left it in to give them a fair chance to prove their claims but they didn't take it. I am glad to see it reverted. --DanielRigal (talk) 09:42, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Agreed, there's a couple of single purpose accounts that are not here to defend neutrality. Would an RfC be called for here? Or what another method of dispute resolution be more fitting? Them From Space 04:05, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Awards and Recognition section

I am removing this section due to a lack of verifiable 3rd party sources. www.eliseosoriano.com is hardly a reliable source is it? Prior to restoration or reversion please consult WP:PROVEIT WP:BURDEN and WP:SOURCES. - 4twenty42o (talk) 05:19, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Next question.. Can youtube video's be used as a source? - 4twenty42o (talk) 19:00, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Please remove this section because the supposed "awards" listed here are all unnotable. Not all award giving bodies are worthy of inclusion in an encyclopedia. Also, notice so-called "awards" like 2008 Most Popular Website, 2008 People's Choice Award (Organization Category), 2007 Most Popular Website and 2007 People's Choice Award (Organization Category). The website and the organization are not Eliseo Soriano, awards for the website and the organization should not be taken as Eli Soriano's awards. This is utter nonsense. - Shannon Rose 19:07, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Agreed.. However, you may have noticed that the page is protected from editing due to edit warring and the inability of some editors to reach a consensus .. Perhaps you should take your argument to the admin whom locked it. - 4twenty42o (talk) 19:41, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

The stuff just got reinserted again and so I took another look at it before removing it again.

Key points:

The videos (or at least the two I looked at) are posted on YouTube by a user called "angdatingdaan". They are worthless as references. Adding them to Misplaced Pages is basically just spam.
There is one RS reference for the awards: . This makes it clear that some, but not all, of these awards were won based on SMS votes. When it comes to music charts, we have along standing policy that SMS based charts don't count. I think it is much the same for awards. Furthermore, the awards are mostly for Ang Dating Daan not Soriano himself although the article does mention him.

My view is that there is no justification for a whole section on these awards as they are not very significant in themselves. The real question is whether they tell us anything. A sentence or two on them in the Ang Dating Daan article is justified. I am not convinced that they belong here but they could be mentioned, very briefly, as a way of indicating the high esteem in which Soriano was held, via his organisations, prior to his legal troubles. Perhaps more interesting are the results of the 2008 awards which show ongoing support despite the legal troubles. --DanielRigal (talk) 18:40, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

The content was reinserted with the comment "Winners of American Idol are voted by SMS too. Non-notable?". I think that deserves an answer. The answer is that American Idol is a massive media event that would make its winners notable even if they were picked by a spinning a bottle. The web awards are not in this category. They do get a little media attention but they don't count for much in the grand scheme of things. I am not 100% against them being mentioned in the article, if it serves some genuine encyclopaedic purpose, but spamming the article with a load of YouTube videos is unacceptable. --DanielRigal (talk) 23:26, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

As the person repeatedly reinserting these spam links is not engaging in discussion, I have no choice but to start reverting them as vandalism and handing out warnings. Its a pity but that's how it goes. --DanielRigal (talk) 00:45, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Can I mention the award in the Ang Dating Daan article? BTW, thank you for finding a RS source for this award. Dar book (Complains?) 07:37, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

I am watching too if you need a witness. - 4twenty42o (talk) 00:50, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

august 2003 libel case

Although the Manila Times no longer supports the article i found a link on way back. Can that be used as a ref?? http://web.archive.org/web/20071217182209/http://www.manilatimes.net/national/2007/oct/06/yehey/metro/20071006met1.html - 4twenty42o (talk) 07:59, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes. Using archive.org is a perfectly legitimate way to link to material that has been removed from the web. The only question is why it was removed? If it was due to a general clean up of old articles (e.g. a site relaunch without an archive of older articles, or older articles being moved behind a paywall) then that is fine. Only if it was removed due to the specific article being retracted (e.g. due to inaccuracy, libel or whatever) would it be an issue and we would need to think carefully about whether the article could be still considered reliable after being repudiated by its publisher. --DanielRigal (talk) 14:27, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks I'll do some research.. - 4twenty42o (talk) 18:11, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Changes

There are a couple of changes I think should be made, that I believe will make this a more accurate article. First I found a link to the story on the libel case.http://web.archive.org/web/20071217182209/http://www.manilatimes.net/national/2007/oct/06/yehey/metro/20071006met1.html I can find nothing to suggest that any part of the story was fabricated or retracted. Secondly the awards and recognition section needs to be removed completely. The references are youtube videos and the awards actually go to the "church" not the man. Does anyone have any objections? Opinions? Or concerns about these changes? - 4twenty42o (talk) 06:09, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

I am in complete agreement with the changes. - Shannon Rose 19:48, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

I am waiting to make any changes until everyone involved has a chance to take a look and respond but thank you SR for your input. - 4twenty42o (talk) 00:54, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Changes have been made for about a week or so. There does not appear to be any more serious problems. Does anyone else have any information on Soriano? I would like to expand the article but there appears to be very little information online that is not soaking in controversy. - 4twenty42o (talk) 05:34, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Lets discuss any changes here before we make them. There are several people watchlisting this and if we need help finding a consensus it wont take nearly as long. I am searching for references on what is tagged. If anyone else finds them post here. - 4twenty42o (talk) 21:44, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Follower of International Fugitive Eliseo Soriano's Dirty Tricks Foiled Again!

Please know that users 1K Years, The Editor's Pen, and 124.217.31.65 have been positively identified as none other than perma-blocked Eliseo Soriano follower Felix Natalo. This is history repeating itself, dear friends. Do you still remember our experience with perma-blocked Petersantos and Dar book? Fellow editors, let us be aware of the strategies of this group and remain vigilant in guarding the integrity of this article! – Shannon Rose 15:34, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

I figured that was who the new editors were... I have been watching 1K for a few days and thought the style looked familiar. - 4twenty42o (talk) 15:39, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

The only way this COI will end is that both parties agree to insert both good and bad information about the subjects. All I see here are negative information, there are good referenced facts about this guy, but editors like Shannon Rose instantly claim those facts as "unnotable". Tch. Dar book (Complains?) 06:49, 6 December 2009 (UTC) <

There is no need to "end the COI, Dar book." A decent number of good faith editors are quite vigilant in watching all topics related to this international fugitive Eliseo Soriano. You can act out your COI all you want: you can edit war, create sock puppets (like you and others have done over and over), etc. but all your efforts will just be wasted: your edits will be reverted, you will be blocked and even banned from editing. The problem is there exists no current reliable source praising your idol outside his own cult following and outside the broadcasting network owned by his cult and operated by his deputy-nephew (CEO). The first rule for including any relevant piece of information in an encyclopedia is that it must come from "reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." Gossips from opinion blogs, youtube videos, and propaganda claims on the subject's own websites and non-notable websites related to the subject's own organization that you keep on posting are not "reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." How many times have this been explained to you by not only myself but other editors as well? – Shannon Rose 17:45, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

I have already agreed to what you've said, I followed the rules by not using Youtube videos as references. But what bothers me is that after months of watching your edits. I began to doubt if you are in good-faith. If you are a good-faith, non-POV user, then why:

- - ...do you call this organization a cult without citing "reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy."?

Because this is the talk page for the article and not the article itself. There exists no policy that require us to reference things that we say on talk pages. – Shannon Rose 21:32, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

- - Revert some of my edits even when I'm not doing any harm to an article and even calling my edit as "vandalism"?

Because it is! And I have already explained to you why on relevant pages namely: your own talk page where the warning was placed and the edit summary of the article you're obsessing about. By the way, this is the discussion page for the Eli Soriano article; Members Church of God International has its own discussion page. – Shannon Rose 21:32, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

- - Removing my opinion in this talk page?

Because you're spamming the discussion page with irrelevant matters. If you have issues with the Iglesia Ni Cristo article then bring it up in its own discussion page and edit the article. – Shannon Rose 21:32, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

- - Removing the template I added to this talk page?

Because this is not a "highly sensitive article" and "diverse opinions" don't matter here at all. As long as your edits are duly-sourced and adheres to the policy on BLP then they're ok. Your tag is nothing but irrelevant junk to vent out your personal frustrations. – Shannon Rose 21:32, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

- - Took back your personal opinion about the Bereans (which is the only site that calles Soriano's group a cult) which you once said, are "unreliable sources"?

I was wrong to conclude that they were the only site who labeled Soriano's group as a "cult," and you are also wrong to still believe that such is truly the case. Actually, Soriano can be safely referred as a cult leader in the article and reference it to a number of sources, including this Sun Star Pampanga editorial stating that "Only a fortnight ago, the INC group succeeded in filing its own libel charge against the Pampango cult leader, one of the ten already filed by the INC against him." – Shannon Rose 21:32, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

- - Attempted to "harass" me in my talk page? Luckily, someone warned you.

Here is the warning again. It was a pretty good one and it was for both of us not just for me. How you've misunderstood it as a warning intended only for me is an excellent example of why you should not be editing WP in the first place. You can hardly understand, let alone speak, the English language. – Shannon Rose 21:32, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

- - Finally, when a follower of Soriano posts his idea in this talk page, you immediately posted that this user and including me "are permanently blocked".

You have been blocked for sockpuppetry and your fellow cult member Petersantos was perma-blocked. That is a fact, but where did I say that you have been permanently blocked? – Shannon Rose 21:32, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

- - Claiming that the Philippine Web Awards' award for Soriano is for the show; I agreed. But when I mention the award in the Ang Dating Daan article, you instantly remove it (without a proper consensus first).

Because it is an unnotable award, not to mention a spurious one. Not all awards are worth mentioning in an encyclopedia article. – Shannon Rose 21:32, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Also, take a look at the title of this section, isn't it somewhat biased and negative? By the way you talk, you keep on insisting the readers of this talk page that I am permanently blocked, trying to whitewash the article and COI. Why not try to examine what does each side (pro-Soriano and anti-Soriano) have to say about the articles involving this ~~heavily-persecuted~~ controversial religion? ~~(Don't judge immediately, let both sides agree first.)~~ It is now obvious that editors like you who are obviously in COI also (that is to say, against Soriano). Dar book (Complains?) 07:27, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

I am not anti-Soriano as you are pro-Soriano, I am only pro-Misplaced Pages. Add reliable 3rd party references to your edits and they will be accepted whether they are for or against the subject. Your edits are unsourced and were obviously added to whitewash a meticulously-sourced and well-developed article. – Shannon Rose 21:32, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

You are absolutely correct about there being good referenced material about Soriano. As soon as you propose changes and add reliable 3rd party references and knock off the silly sockpuppet games, then that information can be added. Keep up the silliness and NPOV issues however and the COI will continue. Shannon is preventing the socks from bloating membership numbers, removing sourced content and creating patent nonsense. If you would care to contribute constructively Shannon, myself and quite a few others watching will make sure you get a fair shake. Regards - 4twenty42o (talk) 09:33, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

BLP violations in Razon and Soriano articles

Both articles have descriptions concerning Soriano's 'international fugitive' status. This claim uses a link to a local tabloid paper and a notice at the Interpol website, which the former refers to.

However, there is no such notice in the Interpol website about Eli Soriano. In the Interpol's Red Notice list, there is no Soriano that refers to the preacher, nor is he present in the list of suspects from the Philippines when searching the Interpol database.

I request concerned editors to please rectify Soriano's 'international fugitive' claim by providing reliable sources which are not the two already provided as the source from the Interpol doesn't exist, or remove the line altogether for being a BLP violation. --112.203.97.53 (talk) 06:35, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Claiming somebody as a fugitive when he's no longer listed in the interpol fugitive website violates BLP. This should reflect in the article that Soriano was previously listed as fugitive but it is no longer the case. You can't use a web archive as a source because it doesn't reflect the current status quo. The Portuguese article states Soriano is in Brazil now and has tv and radio programs in that country and it should reflect in the English article also. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.63.105.66 (talk) 21:55, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Hi anon, nothing in WP:BLP states that archived web pages cannot be used as source. Please review WP:GRAPEVINE. Instead of adhering to BLP, you appear to be reading into it. Misinterpreting policy is wikilawyering. Soriano's fugitive status, along with his being a controversial televangelist, are his claims to notability. In fact there are TV specials that focuses heavily on his fugitive status. Soriano is in WP because he is notable. Nevertheless, he is not notable because he is a televangelist. Wouldn't you agree that there are loads of televangelists in the world who do not deserve any place in an encyclopedia? I'm sure you would. He is also not notable for being a fugitive, for there are also loads of fugitives in world who do not deserve any place in an encyclopedia. Soriano is notable because he is a televangelist and a fugitive at the same time, and this fact is highly-publicized both in print and in television. There are many reliable news sources stating that he is wanted in his own country for sex crimes. And there are those that directly use the word fugitive in reference to Soriano. We cannot say that Soriano used to be a fugitive but is no longer the case, for there exists no reliable source supporting that statement. Soriano is a fugitive, and unless there is evidence(s) stating the contrary, we cannot make such a claim in an encyclopedia. There is absolutely no BLP violation in this article, all statements are properly-sourced and narrated in a way that completely adheres to the context of those sources. – Shannon Rose 00:04, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Suffice to say, Soriano is known by Filipinos due to the controversies surrounding him and not because he is a fugitive. I have to agree with your last statement, Shannon, since there is no "counter-reference" stating that Soriano is no longer or "used to be" a fugitive. To other editors, please stop adding the term "fugitive" on the statements of other people. The reference did not use the term "fugitive". About the lead section of the article, it is more neutral if we place the international fugitive part on the 2nd (still obvious) paragraph of the article. IronBreww (talk) 02:44, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Hi, known by Filipinos is difficult to prove, and does not justify inclusion into an encyclopedia with a worldwide readership. One must be notable or known throughout the world for "something" in order to merit his or her own article in the English Misplaced Pages (if the subject is just regionally-known, it would be more fitting for him to have an article on the Tagalog WP instead of this one, which is an international reference). That notability can be anything, it does not need to be fame, it could be notoriety, or even inanity. There could only be one reason for notability, and there could also be multiple reasons. Yes, the subject may have started off as being known for minor anomalies, but the fact that he deliberately eluded the law, went to hiding, attempted to trick the courts, left the Philippines with an active arrest warrant, became listed and pictured in the Interpol website as a man wanted in his home country for sex crimes, and the fact that all of these are documented on broadsheet newspapers and featured on TV programs such as this one are enough to add international fugitive to the notability clause, alongside controversial televangelist. The reference used for fugitive is the entire sourced section devoted to that part of his life story. It is an extremely developed and aptly substantiated section describing his activities as a fugitive. The word fugitive used in reference to Soriano's condition also appears in news articles, for example: "An irate Superintendent Abad Osit, chief of the Pandacan police station, ordered Police Officer 3 Jun Gumaru to explain why he should not be held accountable for violating the standard operation procedure (SOP) for the custody of fugitives." (source http://www.philstar.com/Article.aspx?articleid=68908) We cannot deny that the statement attributed to Superintendent Abad Osit is directed to our subject and the circumstances surrounding him. After all, the entire article is about Eli Soriano. – Shannon Rose 19:02, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Hi Shannon. Your source is a youtube video that is only broadcasted in the Philippines. As what you've said, Misplaced Pages needs articles that " are notable or known throughout the world ". Is Mr. Soriano known as a fugitive throughout the world? Or is it he is only known as a fugitive because of this POV Misplaced Pages article about him? The international fugitive part only became known after you (I think its you, correct me if I am wrong) added it here in Misplaced Pages, thus "spreading the world around blogs". But, I am not blaming you, since there are references backing your info. But wait a second (watching the video you linked), the video uses the tagalog language and was simply added by an unknown user. Anybody could just create videos that try to destroy Soriano's integrity. If youtube videos are not accepted as good references also because it uses the Tagalog Language, then the "international fugitive" part is not notable since there is not non-Filipino reference (besides the "web archive") backing your claim. Also, Soriano claims that he left the Philippines because of death threats (also "somewhat implied" in the video you "gave" me), can that part be placed here? Last question: I would ask you Ms.(?) Shannon Rose, in the spirit of full disclosure, whether you would be willing to disclose whether you yourself are able to speak Filipino and affliated with a religious group that was criticized by Soriano. (I am going to study the video you gave me. Thanks for the video.) IronBreww (talk) 02:14, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Hi IronBreww, there is no WP policy prejudice to references in foreign language. In fact, if you've been around, you will see a lot of articles with French, German, Spanish and other non-English language references. The YouTube video, which can be easily verified to be produced by, and aired in, a 3rd party major network, is not used as reference anywhere in the article anyway. I just gave you the link for the purpose of our discussion here. I'm sorry, but I believe that the spirit of full disclosure is a bit incongruous for an online encyclopedia that has solid policies laid out to protect user anonymity. – Shannon Rose 11:10, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

The problem with you two is that you both believe that Soriano is a fugitive. You users are not trustworthy! What can we expect from editors who are enemies of Soriano...of course they will try to use Misplaced Pages as a black propaganda tool to destroy and malign Soriano. The Iglesia ni Cristo, having been badly criticized by Soriano, is simply retaliating by charging him with rape cases, among others. Misplaced Pages Editors: Be more vigilant as these editors (Shannon Rose, IronBreww, Conrad940, 50%Quick, others) are only determined to use Soriano's article in Misplaced Pages as "black propaganda". I pray that the minds of those editors I mentioned be opened. (If only you knew what political influence the INC has. And only if you knew that some government officials in the Philippines are under the influence of INC.) In a country where corruption, poverty and minor lawlessness (i.e piracy ), any influential religion could destroy someones credibility. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.191.61.151 (talk) 02:21, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Hello, Anon. Personal beliefs do not figure in WP articles. Editors simply provide information based on reliable sources. Talk pages are for non-COI editors to discuss ways of improving an article. It is not a forum for your "prayers," theories, conjectures, heartaches, and grudges. Since you find it challenging to communicate with civility, you are gently advised to move away and contribute on articles where you hold no emotional involvement. – Shannon Rose 18:04, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Fixed the issue. The "international fugitive" part cannot be removed because there is still one reference backing it. The portuguese article of Soriano states that the fugitive-leader is in Brazil; it cannot be placed here since it is unreferenced. Please read WP:RS for more details on looking for 3rd party, reliable sources. IronBreww (talk) 04:24, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Brazil?

I've done some research about this fugitive-televangelist and I've found some rumors that he is currently in Brazil. Using Google's search engine this suggestion appears: Eli Soriano Brazil. We need valid references to back this claims. If ever a valid RS is found, I believe that info be placed in the article. IronBreww (talk) 09:00, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

I have done some research in the past regarding this but I was unable to find any RS in support of it. So, I simply gave up on the idea. He is there, and there are even videos that clearly imply this, yet RS seem non-existent. Nevertheless, I will again attempt to help you with this. – Shannon Rose 12:47, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

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