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The First Sentence
I don't think that it's appropriate to have written that Paris "fucked" Helen. You may argue that its true, but I think "had an affair" or similar would be more appropriate. No, I'm not a middle-aged woman who complains loads, I a normally non-complaining 17 year old, but I feel that thats quite rude to write that on there.
Yes, sorry you caught that. You read a vandalised version of the article, which has now been corrected. You are quite right, that is not the tone that is used in an encyclopedia. IdreamofJeanie (talk) 13:27, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
If you're referring to the daggers in the infobox by characters like Priam, Hector, and Paris, it means that they die during the war. However, this infobox is inappropriate for a mythological conflict, because it gives the casual reader the impression that the war actually happened. I'm therefore taking the infobox out. This issue has been discussed before, and there's never been consensus that there should be an infobox here; in fact, there's been a consensus that the infobox doesn't belong. --Akhilleus (talk) 02:11, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
User:Valkyrie Red seems to have been tidying this talk page. I'm sure he/she has a good reason for deleting, by way of example, this post from long-standing contributor Paul August, but it seems relevant to current discussions. Generally speaking deleting other editors' talk page comments is thought of as, at best, poor etiquette—policy here. Apologies, of course, if I'm missing something or my interpretation of the page history is faulty. --Old Moonraker (talk) 14:46, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
My apologies good sir. I was just trying to help clean up the talk page of useless posts. If that was wrong of me, then please, by all means rollback everything I did--Valkyrie Red (talk) 19:41, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
Readding the Picture
Yeah, when you guys unfairly removed the infobox from the article, you removed the image. Now I don't know about you, but that image looks quite good on the article and I would really appreciate it if you returned it.--Valkyrie Red (talk) 22:22, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
This post might be more helpful if it noted which image had been removed. Here it is: Someone might want to dress it up with a caption before sticking it in the article. --Akhilleus (talk) 22:56, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
Imaginative rather than informative, although the artist seems to have incorporated the Library of Celsus from Ephesus, just down the coast, into his burning ruins. I'm surprised there isn't a picture of the judgement of Paris anywhere. More relevant, perhaps, would be File:Akhilleus Patroklos Antikensammlung Berlin F2278.jpg, an image from the time of the myth (although not, of course, the time of the war itself), now adorning "Achilles' campaigns" lower down the page. --Old Moonraker (talk) 05:45, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
Returning the Infobox
I have read the above argument and I still think that there should be an infobox for this. Most of you may think that the even wasn't real, however, plenty of scholars have said that this event was real. The ruins of the city was even discovered. As for the facts and figures, Bettany Hughes Non-Fiction book Helen of Troy states all those listed. If you actually took the time to look through the footnotes, than you'd have read that.--Valkyrie Red (talk) 21:43, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
There's a Bronze Age settlement that was probably Troy (although there is no definitive evidence that the city was Troy—rather, circumstantial evidence establishes that it probably was Troy). There were widespread disturbances in the late Bronze Age that may have in some way inspired the myths of the Trojan War. However, that's a far cry from saying that the mythology of the Trojan War is historically accurate, or that there were actual people named Odysseus, Achilles, Priam, and so on. Sadly, the article doesn't do a very good job of explaining the relationship between history and mythology, but I doubt you would find "plenty of scholars" who would take the second book of the Iliad and confidently state the number of Greek forces in the war based on that. So, no, we shouldn't have an infobox that implies a mythological war actually happened. --Akhilleus (talk) 00:23, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but I still don't see why there is no need for an infobox. An infobox's purpose is to provide the reader with an overview of the article, while the article is too explain the infobox's information. In the first sentence, this article states in Greek mythology, therefore the reader knows that this even may or may not be true. Why should you try to close an open clam?--Valkyrie Red (talk) 02:22, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
Because it's not an "open clam". No one thinks the Trojan War as told in Greek mythology actually happened. No scholar thinks that 866000 Greeks fought against 676000 Trojans + allies for 10 years. No scholar thinks that a person named Agamemnon led this war. In any case, the important material in this article is the narrative of the war—the Judgment of Paris, the abduction of Helen, the death of Palamedes, and so on. If you think an infobox should provide an overview of the article, that's what should go in there, not a dressed-up list of characters and some back-of-the-envelope calculations based on Book 2 of the Iliad. But no one's come up with an infobox to sum up narratives yet... --Akhilleus (talk) 03:49, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
Akhilleus is correct. Modern scholars do not think that there was a Trojan war as describe by Homer, and there should be no infobox. Dougweller (talk) 06:21, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
Foolish remark on your part Akhilleus. Saying that no one thinks the Trojan War existed is complete bias, and doesn't maintain a neutral point of view on your part. Bettany Hughes, as I have stated earlier, is a historian who has written a book regarding the war, as well as created documentarys. Finding one person is all I need to do to counter your "no one thinks" claim.--Valkyrie Red (talk) 11:21, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
Now, since you two seem to think that an infobox should only be used for 100% proven conflicts, please, do show me the Wikipedian article that states this.--Valkyrie Red (talk) 11:21, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
Now, since you two seem to be stuck on the fact that infobox's should only be used for 100% proven conflicts, please, do show me the Wikipedian page that says this.--Valkyrie Red (talk) 11:18, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
Sorry, nothing new to bring to the discussion but may I reiterate a point already made, because seemingly it has not been grasped by some? This article is about a legend, not a war. Using the military conflict infobox to "to summarize information about a particular military conflict...in a standard manner" for a legend is using it inappropriately. --Old Moonraker (talk) 12:49, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
Once again an ignorant remark posted. There is plenty of evidence that states this war was real, not legendary. You are letting your own personal opinions judge your support. You are one of the people that sees this war as being fake.
But, going to the military box, the article states the following "A military conflict box, may be used to summarize information about a particular military conflict....". Where exactly in that sentence (let alone article) does it state that the conflict has to have been proven real 100%? To save you time, my fellow editors, it doesn't. We can all agree that this "event" was a conflict of some kind, whether or not it has been completely proven (which is divided). Therefore, a war box is allowed to be used.--Valkyrie Red (talk>) 19:48, 25 May 2010 (UTC)>
But no one agrees with you, so can we drop this? You aren't bringing up any new arguments, and presumably you aren't going to put it back against consensus. Dougweller (talk) 20:04, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
I can't find a statement by Hughes saying that Homer's tale of the Trojan war is accurate, but did find "Hughes draws particularly on the work of the Swiss scholar Joachim Latacz, whose recent book on Troy claimed that Homer’s epics contain authentic memories of a Trojan war. Yet not even Latacz argues that Helen — or the heroes who fought over her, come to that — ever existed as historical characters; and what Hughes nowhere acknowledges is that Latacz’s book was written as a response to scholars who ferociously disagree with his arguments. The entire fabulous edifice of her theme, in other words, has been raised on dangerously shifting sands." Suggesting that there was a war or wars that are the basis of Homer's tale does not make Homer's tale accurate. We are still left with a myth, and the only infobox that would be aoppropriate would be one for fiction. Dougweller (talk) 20:18, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
I wish I'd looked at his talk page earlier, Valkyrie Red is just a couple of days off a 2 week block for "repeated disruptive editing and for treating Misplaced Pages like a WP:BATTLEGROUND." Dougweller (talk) 20:32, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
"5 blocks so far, and each of them has been for the same offense". Patience in admins is obviously a very necessary qualification. --Old Moonraker (talk) 20:42, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
What exactly do my past offenses have to do with this? I am not edit-warring. Just having a conversation with you editors.
Now, you have completely ignored my statement. A war box may be used for any conflict, not just proven ones. Therefore, a war box would be allowed for this.--Valkyrie Red (talk) 20:50, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
But you are not having a conversation, you are simply repeating yourself. After a point such repetition becomes disruptive. You say an edit box can be used for any conflict, which would include fictional ones, everyone else disagrees. It really is time for you to drop this. Dougweller (talk) 21:13, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
I think an infobox would be a good idea for this article. What's wrong with having one? Generally, infoboxes improve the appearance of articles and also allow readers to easily get some general info/overview. --Edward130603 (talk) 23:36, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
Gentlemen, it has come to my attention that the infobox in the article has been removed on grounds that the article's war status is iffy at best. While it may seem to you to make sense to remove the military history infobox for this conflict I would invite you to reconsider you stance on the position. Many articles concerning combat and war that never actually exist already make use of MILHISt's infoboxs for the purposes of outlining basic information already found in the article (for an example, you can check out One Year War). I'm not going to pick a debate/fight over this issue, but I invite you all to consider that if this use is acceptable here then there likely will be no issues at all to your using the infobox in this article to summaries the war. TomStar81 (Talk) 01:47, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
I don't think One Year War is a good model for how to write this article. This isn't an article about anime, or fiction—it's an article about mythology. The "basic information" in this article is not the stuff that fits into infoboxes, but the story of the war. The editors who want to see an infobox in this article seem to think the most important thing about the Iliad is the body count. That's a remarkably shallow way to deal with mythology, literature, and art. --Akhilleus (talk) 02:01, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
You are missing the point: If an article on a war that exists only in a tv world can have an infobox then an article on a myth passed down through writings can have one too. Its not going to end the world if we re-add the infobox to the article. TomStar81 (Talk) 03:13, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
You're missing my point: a "tv world" is not the same as a body of mythology which was of central importance to ancient Greek religion, literature, and art, and inspired many subsequent cultures. The "war" this article covers is a story—and the infobox is not suited for summarizing a story. In fact, it detracts from the article, by picking out trivia such as the number of combatants and presenting it as the most important information the reader needs to see at the beginning of the article. --Akhilleus (talk) 03:22, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
I hate to burst your bubble, but to most people that is all that really matters. I know its all I cared about when I was an undergrad. I'm not going to go to war over it though; if consensus is to make it harder for visitors and the unknowable to find the important information far be it for me to suggest a way to improve the article for everyone's benefit. TomStar81 (Talk) 05:03, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
Gee, thanks for showing what you think about good faith. How did you guess that those of us who don't want the infobox are secretly trying to make our articles worse? Dougweller (talk) 05:39, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
Umm no need for sarcasm........? It's just a different POV so don't get too defensive. A infobox really doesn't detract from the article, as most people read the lead as well. The infobox is just helpful for the average reader trying to get some sort of an overview. Btw, "The editors who want to see an infobox in this article seem to think the most important thing about the Iliad is the body count." If that were the case, then read Attack on Pearl Harbor. The infobox there mentions quite a bit about body count, but it does not mention the strategic blunders (which proved to be far more important than number of peeps killed / battleships sunk). Yet, no one's tried to take that infobox out based on how it highlights things that aren't the most important. --Edward130603 (talk) 18:44, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
So basically your only argument for not having the infobox is that you personally think that it detracts from the article, which in turn is a weak argument. I think a new consensus has been reached, no?--Valkyrie Red (talk) 14:32, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
Edward130603 has said that the infobox in Attack on Pearl Harbor leaves out some of the most important information in the article (strategic blunders, whether on the part of the Japanese or Americans I don't know). In other words, even in an article about a historical battle, the infobox is not suited to summarize all of the important facts covered in the article. If the infobox doesn't present useful information to the reader, the only argument for including it is WP:ILIKEIT—in other words, no argument at all.
By the way, I'd like everyone to look at this comment by User:Kirill Lokshin, who at that time was the coordinator of the Military history Wikiproject (he's now a member of the Arbitration Committee). Kirill Lokshin said that fictional battles don't fall within the purview of WP:MILHIST, and that the Trojan War, as a mythological event, falls under that category. I'd consider the former coordinator of the MILHIST project an authoritative source on which articles belong in the project's scope. This whole argument was settled back in 2006; why do we have to have it again now? --Akhilleus (talk) 17:29, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
Unfortunately sir, Tom Star is the new military history coordinator and we're going by his word, not the previous one. If a fictional event such as One Year War can have an infobox, then why can't the Trojan War? Currently, the only argument that you've provided for not having an infobox is I don't like it.--Valkyrie Red (talk) 02:28, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
Ah, Misplaced Pages, where history lasts 5 minutes. Valkyrie, if you think the only argument I've made for not having the infobox is WP:IDONTLIKEIT, you need to read my posts once more. Although I will agree that one of the reasons I think there shouldn't be an infobox here is that I don't like the particular infobox that people keep trying to stick in... --Akhilleus (talk) 03:38, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
Although the Trojan War has a lot of mythological aspects, it is not quite on par with something like Titanomachy. On the other hand, it is very similar to something like Battle of Banquan and Battle of Zhoulu (both battles are more or less legendary). They both have infoboxes, further showing that mythological battles can definitely have infoboxes. Infoboxes just help to summarize. They aren't the only things that readers look at, but they do give easily understandable basic info that readers would likely want to see.--Edward130603 (talk) 00:08, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
