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• WP:GS/CC/RE

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Suspected Scibaby sockpuppets

Following discussion at Misplaced Pages:General sanctions/Climate change probation/Requests for enforcement#Scibaby and enablers, this section is established to list active suspected Scibaby sockpuppets. This list is merely a courtesy to other editors active in this topic area, and does not replace Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Scibaby. Please remove accounts that have been blocked or were listed in error. Accounts listed here are probably sockpuppets of a banned user, and may be reverted on sight. Any editor in good standing may "adopt" an edit that in his or her considered opinion improves an article, subject to common editing norms. The utmost care should be exercised to avoid listing accounts in error, and any mistakes should be promptly recognized and rectified.

• BanVan (talk · contribs)Stephan Schulz (talk) 15:08, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
• Thoop33 (talk · contribs) Stephan Schulz (talk) 13:22, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
• Ben Peltier (talk · contribs) Stephan Schulz (talk) 17:03, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Marknutley (civility)

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

Furthermore, Your full of crap hipocrite appears to be a violation of his civility parole. A while later he refuses to strike it after being asked to and repeats the offence however what he wrote above is crap William M. Connolley (talk) 14:58, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

You guys are full of it, is this a case of throw enough shite and hope some sticks? First my edit summary was about moving stuff to a new section, not to do with the see also`s. Did i get a chance yet to reply to hipocrite`s last comment? No i have not. So how do you know what i intend to do? Got a crystal ball? or perhaps you modelled it. WMC that is an out and out lie, when was i asked to strike it? And as hipocrite has not asked me to then there is no issue with it mark nutley (talk) 15:47, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

"full of crap" seems light compared to some of the crap that's come out of WMCs mouth and strikes me as highly hypocritical. -Atmoz (talk) 16:48, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

As well as the above (you guys are full of it) we have What the hell are you on about? William M. Connolley (talk) 16:24, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

May I suggest that you open a separate request for civility issues if you think that's useful? I consider the original issue a simple matter that can be - constructively or destructively - solved without much discussion. Civility, on the other hand, is a general mess on Misplaced Pages. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 17:12, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

OK, added a header. Mind you I only added this here because it was convenient to piggy-back on your report. MN still has a chance to redact and close this William M. Connolley (talk) 17:33, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

It has been redacted mark nutley (talk) 17:40, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

If you mean - convention is to strike through not silently alter. But no, this is not done: the other 3 PA's remain William M. Connolley (talk) 17:53, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

The WS asked me to remove it, i did. The rest are not PA`s i`m done here mark nutley (talk) 18:39, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Response to LHVU (below)

What civility parole?: William M. Connolley (talk) 22:19, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

And you've forgotten you guys are full of it William M. Connolley (talk) 22:20, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Now here`s a funny thing, i`m not actually on a civility parole mark nutley (talk) 23:00, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Do you consider I will give my word to be civil at all times from this moment on. This will mean if i`m insulted or other crap is chucked my way i will get up, go for a fag and then respond. binding? William M. Connolley (talk) 23:10, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Isn't top-posting such a helpful mode of discussion? William M. Connolley (talk) 23:10, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

I do not think it is binding in a sanctionable meaning, although it may be that Mn might be placed under an official civility parole as his voluntary one seems to have fallen to the wayside. I also did note the use of "full of it", in the penultimate sentence. LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:48, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

It would be nice to have a less partial admin comment. Alas, they are all busy it seems. With an arbcomm case to play with, RFE is just so yesterday William M. Connolley (talk) 20:56, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Note: MN considers his civility parole to be binding , even if LHVU considers it binding in a non-binding sense, whatever that is supposed to mean. Although apparently he does not think saying to someone they are full of crap is a personal attack. Let us hope that the admins here will disagree William M. Connolley (talk) 21:30, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

I have no idea how you think me saying, "...I agree that "... is full of crap" constitutes a pa" means the opposite. I would also note that I am aware that Mn considers his civility parole binding, but I am also aware that he does not consider his choice of words constitute a personal attack. I cannot square the circle you are attempting to present to me, that Mn is under a civility parole by means of his personal undertaking and he has broken it by the use of terms he does not consider as being attacks. How can his word that he is under some restriction be used against him when he gives his word that he had not broken that restriction? I also would appreciate some other opinions in regard to this. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:42, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Why is this "crap" conversation still ongoing? Given it was removed as requested? mark nutley (talk) 22:14, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Another question I am unable to satisfactorily answer... LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:56, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Comments by uninvolved administrator(s)

What civility parole? I have reviewed the logs and noted both the 1RR and "good sourcing" restrictions upon Marknutley, but cannot find and was unaware of a specific civility parole.
Under general WP:CIVIL, I agree that "... is full of crap" constitutes a pa, and am glad that it has been removed. Noting that an opinion is full of crap is unhelpful, but cannot be a pa since it addresses the content and not the commentator. Unless there is a civility parole, I would be minded to issue marknutley with a warning against further use of contentious terms for this and the "full of it" comments. However, "what the hell" is common terminology and would not fall under the WP:CIVIL umbrella as far as I am concerned. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:38, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

• I think a civility parole is now in order. Mark seems to be losing his temper a bit too much. ++Lar: t/c 21:28, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
  • Standard wording then: "Marknutley may be blocked if he makes any edits which are judged by an uninvolved administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith"? Not really sure if it is worth it; it doesn't seem very different (more strigent) than the standards of WP:NPA, but if you want... NW (Talk) 08:35, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
  • I've put user:Marknutley on civility parole and logged it. — east718 | talk | 19:26, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

William M. Connolley

marknutley & Nsaa

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning marknutley & Nsaa

User requesting enforcement

Hipocrite (talk) 08:15, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

marknutley (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Nsaa (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated

Misplaced Pages:General sanctions/Climate change probation

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

mark uses a blog as a source NSAA approves a blog as a source marknutley defends a blog as a source

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

Both editors fully involved here

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)

marknutley's sourcing provisions modified such that all sources must be passed through an en administrator or experienced editor with prior-approval from this board. Failing that, the creation of a running list of individuals banned from providing source blessings for MN.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

He's not going to stop using blogs as sources unless you stop him.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

,

Discussion concerning marknutley & Nsaa

Statement by marknutley & Nsaa

Ok Nsaa checked the ref`s. And was concerned about the use of Watts Up With That so he checked the reliable sources archives and found a discussion which clearly says that the use of Watts up is fine for Anthony Watts opinion And as such he ok`d it. As you can see from this diff of hipocrites removal the content was attributed to Watts opinion on the spoof video Hide the Decline, there has been no breach of either my parole or of WP policy here mark nutley (talk) 08:27, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Nsaa

I was concerned by the use of Watts Up With That source (Must see video – Climategate spoof from Minnesotans for Global Warming) to support this sentence "Anthony Watts on his website Watts Up With That said of the video, "I’m still wiping the tears from my eyes. This is hilarious and extremely well produced". In the following I considered DeSmogBlog and Watts Up With That as the same kind of references per WP:RS: After reading DesmogBlog Is not wp:rs it looked like all the parties agreed on that on WP:RSN on the following: "As for Watts - IMO, his blog is a reliable source for his opinion, as well. Obviously. Guettarda (talk) 00:30, 9 March 2010 (UTC)" and the final "I agree that it is a POV-pushing (i.e. advocacy) source, but I think evidence has been presented that it may be used, with attribution, as a source of opinion. * "According to Jim Hoggan in his DeSmogBlog..." Cla68 (talk) 01:24, 9 March 2010 (UTC)". Maybe I've misinterpreted this, but as far as I see we have no reason to believe that Anthony Watts has not said this on the Watts Up With That web site. I also did a external link search and noticed that it already was used in four mainspace articles: Indur M. Goklany, Lunar Orbiter Image Recovery Project, Anthony Watts (blogger), Watts Up With That and DeSmogBlog has been used in eleven articles:John Lefebvre, DeSmogBlog, Global warming controversy, Koch Industries, Ross Gelbspan, Immigration to Australia, Climate change consensus, The Great Global Warming Swindle, Icecap (blog), Ira Basen, (User:Marknutley/Bishop Hill) and William Kininmonth (meteorologist). The last one should go out per WP:SPS that says "Self-published sources should never be used as third-party sources about living persons, even if the author is a well-known professional researcher or writer: see WP:BLP#Reliable sources.". I will be away for the next week, so I can not follow up on this in one week. Nsaa (talk) 18:29, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning marknutley & Nsaa

I would say that the far worse example of sourcing in that article was a press-release, which was being used in the lead as a reference for factual information. Please see the discusssion here. The ref in questions was this and the version of the article where i tagged it as unreliable is here (ref #1). Mark removed the tag immediately claiming that this was a reliable source (somehow conflating it with the usage of the name climategate - which wasn't the information that i tagged it for). I'm still uncertain as to whether Mark has recognized that this is a press-release or not, and that the reference wasn't reliable to the information given. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 09:07, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Asking advice from someone like Nsaa - an editor involved in this topic area, with a POV sympathetic to Marknutley's (and therefore with an ideological blind spot) - strikes me as counter-productive. I suggest that Marknutley's sourcing restrictions be modified to require him to obtain a review from an editor who is uninvolved in this topic area. Otherwise we will just find Marknutley laundering bad sources through his friends, rather than getting an independent review. -- ChrisO (talk) 13:49, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Rubbish, i have recently asked five people to ok the refs in an article. It is still to be done a week later. Trying to restrict who can ok the sources will simply mean i can never do any edits at all mark nutley (talk) 13:54, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

In your case, that would not be a bad thing. But what is needed here is to get independent reviews of sources, not just nod-throughs from ideological allies. -- ChrisO (talk) 13:58, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

(moved from uninvolved admin section): Would you recommend I file an enforcement action against NSAA seeking to have them prohibited from advising MN on sources? Hipocrite (talk) 11:38, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

I would be very wary of anyone attempting to limit who is an "editor in good standing" on an ideological basis - and all the more so when someone is in opposition to that stance. If anyone wishes to question the good standing of a contributor on the basis of their disciplinary record, editing in mainspace, etc. then it could be a matter for review. Otherwise, per AGF, we simply look at the edit and attempt to resolve issues through normal dispute resolution. LessHeard vanU (talk) 15:05, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Which is why, despite the fact that I am ideologically opposed to him, I would insist that Cla68 be included on the pre-approved list. I would oppose including problematic editors on both ideological sides - for instance, there is no need to include Ratel on the list of approved reviewers. Hipocrite (talk) 15:23, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

I would suggest that the "editor is good standing" condition requires us to determine who is not in good standing by evidencing persistent poor editing or inappropriate behaviour. Should this probation be retained, or another method of overview adopted, it would add to the burden in having to draw up lists of approved editors - with various interests advocating or opposing choices for their own reasons and possibly disinclining editors from accepting that role. Also, as noted earlier, WP:AGF requires us to consider long standing editors as being in good standing unless proven otherwise. LessHeard vanU (talk) 15:42, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

What would you suggest people do, outside of attempting to have marknutley banned from the entire topic area, to stop these endless blogsourced disasters from him? Hipocrite (talk) 15:51, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

I would suggest closing this as it is a content dispute. Whether or not Anthony Watts posting on his site Watts Up With That can be used or not i am not the only editor here who is saying it can be now am i mark nutley (talk) 15:54, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes, you and your ideological cadre all agree that anytime anyone says anything you agree with it's reliable and should be put in every article without question or second thought. I wish you'd stop with the blogs, already. I've asked you over and over - I didn't even decide on deletion of the article until it became clear that it was just another venue to translate blogsourced nonsense to the public. The level of trouble you have getting your articles approved is directly proportional to the times you use denialist blogs to source things you want to be true. Consider just not using them, ever. Hipocrite (talk) 15:57, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

So you think an article should be deleted because you disagree with one of the sources? And calling an identifiable living person a denialist is a blp breach, please remove it. Can you explain why desmogblog is ok as a source but not watts up for the opinions of their authors? Why are you not running around removing all desmogblog references? Or realclimate? mark nutley (talk) 16:08, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't think I've evaluated desmogblog. I've certainly never actively supported it as a source. If you pay for my time, I'll get right on your assignment. Until then, however, I'll merely support wikipedia policies and my own "side" in this dispute. Every previously attempt I made to compromise was met with me giving an inch and the other "side," which is frequently you, giving nothing and taking a mile. Perhaps if you were to try taking the first step you might see that I don't operate nearly as adversarialy as you do. I reject your statement that calling someone a denialist is any more a blp violation than calling someone pro-choice. Hipocrite (talk) 16:12, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Placing limitations on specific editors for specific, multiple misapplication of policy is a sound use of enforcement policy. Targeting a collection of editors, based upon some assumption of their personal POV strikes me as quite out of line. Let's not.--SPhilbrickT 16:32, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

I never suggested doing that. Please review carefully. I suggested preventing NSAA and others who would approve blogsourced garbage from further approving anything. Hipocrite (talk) 16:34, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

If you can show that Nsaa is committing the same type of error, bring an enforcement request. I read the dif, looks like Nsaa made a good faith attempt to confirm that the source was used appropriately. Maybe others will differ, but suggesting that legitimate content disputes should be turned into enforcement actions is over reaction.--SPhilbrickT 16:48, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

This RfE seems to stem from a misunderstanding on Hipocrite's part regarding our policy on WP:V. Blogs are absolutely reliable for the opinions of their authors, per WP:SPS. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 16:12, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree it would be useful for Hipocrite to reread the policy. I see a fair amount of heat, possibly GF comments arising from a mistaken understanding of policy. --SPhilbrickT 16:38, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Find one uninvolved respected user with more than 1 year of active editing and no entrenched climatechange position who agrees with your use of the opinion of blogowners and I'll retracted. Until then, this is more evidence that your "side" of this dispute doesn't care a whit about policy when it gets in the way of the "truth." Hipocrite (talk) 16:40, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

That was out of line.--SPhilbrickT 16:49, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Prove me wrong by inserting the Dr. Connolley post into the article. Hipocrite (talk) 16:54, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Self-published or questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves (WP:SELFPUB). Now, there are some conditions that go along with that, they are on the policy page, but it is difficult to look at that and see 'no blogs, not ever, and a block if you try'. Hipocrite has once again not shown a lot of good faith or even great manners while commenting on these enforcement pages, a good close would be a restriction placed on his ability to bring any more fruitless actions for a while. Weakopedia (talk) 17:25, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

• Per WP:SPS, "Self-published material may in some circumstances be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications." Mark was citing Watts for his views on the production quality and humour of an online video. Is there any evidence at all that Watts is an established expert on videos who has published in this field? If not, Hipocrite's assessment of the unsuitability of this source is correct. Also note that SPS requires caution when using such sources, and while the source is being used for video quality rather than directly as a BLP comment, there are evident BLP issues with the video attacking the reputation of a scientist. "Caution should be exercised when using such sources: if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else is likely to have done so." . . dave souza, talk 07:41, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

• It is apparent that there is a legitimate dispute over the correct use of a blog; however, the enforcement request is based upon Mn not referring the issue to someone in good standing. I do not believe that it has been proven that he didn't, because I see no rationale based in policy, guideline or practice that precludes Nsaa from that description. Even if Nsaa is wrong in their interpretation, it does not disqualify them from being in good standing. If there is evidence of a pattern of incorrect interpretations of policy indicating a bias, they have not been made here despite requests. The argument over the disputed use of the blog does not serve any purpose here. LessHeard vanU (talk) 12:55, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Suggest Marknutley's restriction on sourcing be lifted, as it has proven ineffective. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 15:21, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Why? It is quite apparent that Hipocrite has misinterpreted our policy on WP:V. What does Hipocrite's error have to do with Marknutley? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 15:50, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

In what way has Hipocrite has misinterpreted our policy on WP:V? As set out above, this edit makes use of a blog in a way that fails WP:SPS. Have you some other exemption for blogs in mind? . . dave souza, talk 17:33, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

It's wrong in the way that I've already explained above. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 17:36, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

So why is the opinion of this author significant? Is he recognised as having published expert opinion on video production or humour? Caution doesn't mean just putting unqualified opinions into articles. . . dave souza, talk 22:12, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Self-published sources may be used as sources of information about themselves without the requirement that they be published experts in the field. This author's opinion is relevant because it is a notable voice in the global warming controversy and the Climategate scandal. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:35, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Mark Nutley

Not surprisingly I`m with what boris has said above, however let`s be fair about this and try to keep everyone happy. My ban on adding new sources to articles should be lifted, but if i add a source which i have not double checked with another user which let`s say user:Hipocrite deems unfit for wikipedia then i get a 24hr block. If that does not make me careful then nothing will :) I think this will satisfy all concerned and would also allow me to continue to create articles mark nutley (talk) 18:22, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Oppose. The press-release item that i showed above, is rather clear indications that you haven't learned it yet. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 18:33, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Oppose. The ban should be extended to removing and tagging sources William M. Connolley (talk) 19:29, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Well two other editors said it was ok and a primary source is usable if published in independent third party sources right?. And why are you not demanding WMC get`s put under the same restriction as me? At least i have never used my blog as a source in an article or a BLP have i mark nutley (talk) 19:32, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Mark - no one agreed on the press-release. They missed it. And once it was pointed out, everyone agreed that it wasn't an appropriate reference. You on the other hand, continued, and still seem to think that it is a good reference - and that is worrying - and the reason that i'm opposed. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 19:40, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I was the one who discovered the press release. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:55, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Sorry - i apparently did it independent of you :) --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 20:35, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

WP:PRIMARY Primary sources that have been reliably published may be used in Misplaced Pages, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them. Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. It was covered by a WP:RS and had supporting secondary sources to back it. Perhaps this would be more suited to the RS noticeboard? Given the caveat in my proposal of a 24hr block if hipocrite finds a source which may be suspect and i have not cleared i do not actually see what you are opposing to be honest mark nutley (talk) 19:59, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Mark, it is silly to keep defending a reference that everyone agreed was inappropriate for the information given(do please note what i underlined), all it does is to enforce the view that you are incapable of doing source vetting. Sorry. Nothing is black&white, and especially not sourcings - i've said it before - no source is ever 100% reliable and sources are rarely completely unreliable - everything depends on context. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 20:40, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Result concerning marknutley & Nsaa

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators and is not to be used by others to conduct discusson or debate. Comments by non-admins, and any discussion or debate by other than uninvolved administrators, will be moved to the section above. Adminstrators engaged in extended discussion or debate, especially if not directly related to the proposed outcome, should strongly consider using the above sections.

There is disagreement as to the acceptability of any threaded discussions in this section. Please see Template_talk:Climate_Sanction_enforcement_request before engaging in any threaded discussions.

I have checked the wording of the restrictions relating to Marknutley in regard to sourcing overview , and note that the requirement is for an editor "...in good standing." There is no wording that indicates that the reviewing editor needs to be vetted. However I would note that Nsaa, whose userlinks I have included in the relevant section, has been editing since 2005 and has a clean block record; I should think they therefore qualify per the wording. A review of Nsaa's contributions also indicates that this matter is being discussed by them on the article talkpage, so I am inclined to regard this as a content dispute (per the concerns noted by KDP) and suggest closing this request - especially since Nsaa has not yet been advised that they are a party. LessHeard vanU (talk) 11:13, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

• I would suggest that something be read into the result that addresses the concerns raised about Hipocrite's misinterpretation of policy (about when blogs can be used as sources) as well as something reminding Hipocrite not to post in the uninvolved admin section since he is not uninvolved and not an admin and in this case two nots do not make one not naughty. ++Lar: t/c 04:58, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

ChrisO

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning ChrisO

User requesting enforcement

A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 21:44, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

ChrisO (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated

Misplaced Pages:General sanctions/Climate change probation

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. Canvasses Tony Sidaway.
2. Canvasses Atama.
3. Canvasses AniMate.
4. Canvases JzG.
5. Canvasses Ryan Postlethwaite.
6. Canvases 2over0.
7. ChrisO openly admits that he "specifically chose to notify editors who proposed the ban." "specifically confined myself to notifying the admins who participated and one non-admin (Tony Sidaway) who proposed the ban"
8. Warning issued to ChrisO. Also, I asked him if he would rectify the situation by notifying all the editors he omitted.
9. ChrisO responded by deleting the message.
10. ChrisO tells me to file an RfE.