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Old talk

That bit at the end doesn't strike me as very NPOV... Tualha 05:34, 9 Feb 2004 (UTC)

"Soviet and American attempts to cover the massacre" Do you mean "cover" (to report about) or do you mean "cover up" (to hide)? --anon, 1 Jul 2004

cover up, which has since been corrected Krupo 04:28, Sep 6, 2004 (UTC)

It is not clear as to why Roosevelt would want to cover up the Soviet massacres. At first glance at the heading I thought the Communists and the American President had something in common. It's clear why one murderous leadership would want to put massacres they committed themselves into the shoes of a competing murderous regime. But, Roosevelt??? Whyerd 17:38, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

It indeed needs explanation. The problem was that there were approx 7 to 10 millions of ethnic Poles in the US at the time, large majority of them voted for him in the presidential elections. Roosevelt did not want to enrage his electorate. For similar reasons the agreements from Yalta were not publicised until after the war.

Other cause was that he was considering the case of Polish government in exile a problem of United Kingdom. He apparently believed that taking part in the Polish-Soviet dispute would only enrage uncle Jojo, while the US of A would win nothing if FDR decided to back Poland. ] 18:36, Sep 10, 2004 (UTC)

Doesn't it have more to do with not estranging such a vital ally? I seem to recall various times

when the US hesitated to criticize the USSR...and that always seemed to be the main reason.

The following was posted by User:Rogper in Katyn article. I believe it should be incorporated into this articla rather than geography-related Katyn. How to do this? ] 22:15, Oct 27, 2004 (UTC)

The Soviet regime attempted to cover the event, but some, mostly Polish descentances, started to investigate the thing further. This was the case with Roman Marini from Kraków, together with his two students, who in 1946 personally investigated the graves. Marini was later executed and the two other students disappeared after a positive attempt to flew from prison; their destiny is, however, unknown. In 1971, the danish descent musician Elisabeth Tramsen disappeared under mysterious circumstances, and the case has in fact not yet today found satisfaction or resolution. In the contemporary, her father Helge Tramsen started a movement to raise the opinion in Scandinavia, but his work gained not enough attention. In 1989, Stefan Niedzialak, the founder of Katyn foundation, was beaten to death.

Yes, maybe you have right; it suits perhaps better here. // Rogper 12:04, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

"On Christmas Eve of 1939, all priests of every confession, including Catholics, Orthodox, Jews, Protestants and Greek Catholics were removed from the camps and probably murdered separately."

Probably? This needs substantiation. 119 01:58, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

This has now been removed. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 23:39, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The Jan Masaryk connection

Some of the following could be incorporated in the main article if it can be checked (which came from a book read long ago):

The Germans took a number of experts from the countries they occupied to investigage the Katyn site. The Czech expert was later to do the post mortuum on Jan Masaryk.

Irving

What is the purpose of including the link to neo-Nazi writer Irving's book? He was controversial from the start, including his Sikorski-murder thesis. I'd suggest reading Prof. Richard Evans' report, in which some of Irving's early distortions are discussed. This man should not be counted upon the present an objective historical narrative. Also, what is the source of "On Christmas Eve of 1939, all clergy, including Roman and Greek Catholic, Orthodox, Jewish, and Protestant, were removed from the camps and probably murdered separately."? This should be deleted if no source is forthcoming.

Dear anon. Irving is controversial, yes. But I read his book about Sikorski and it contains some interesting facts about Sikorski's death and Katyn, and I used it for source of some information in both articles, thus I believe his books should remain in the references/external link section. If you can prove to me that some parts of the article(s) are wrong/disputed, I will happilly correct them. The fact that the author later became a controversial Neo-Nazi (there are several archive talk pages about that on his page...) does not automatically makes everything he wrote usless. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 20:12, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I don't know about this sentence, I didn't add it and I have no sources for or against it. However, according to Wiki policy, the sentences should not be deleted unless you have a source that proves it wrong (or it is obviously an error). Could you point out to me the Irving distortions regarding Katyn/Sikorski issue? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 20:14, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

As I said, Irving was controversial from the beginning. Evans points out the distortions in his Dresden book. Thus it is not the matter of me pointing out the mistakes, but rather people relying on a priori shaky source. It may happen that most of what Irving says in his book about post-Katyn repercussions is true, but until proven innocent, he must be presumed guilty. I will no longer delete the links, but I will contemplate putting some sort of short notice, saying that the writer is controversial.

Now about the priests. In "Katyn. Plenniki neobjavlennoj vojny. Dokumenty i materialy" (ed. Pikhoja, Gejsztor (sp?)), Moscow, 1999, we find several facts contradicting this sentence.

Document no. 179 (pp. 317ff) - the "Numerical data on POWs in Starobielsk camp for February 1, 1940" lists 16 priests.

So it is not true that all clergy was separated in 1939.

On p. 431 there is a note on chaplain Stanislaw Kontek (Kantek (sp?)), who on 24 Feb. 1940 was sent to Moscow from Ostashkov, then, in 1941(!), to Griazovets, where he was with other surviving priests - (sp?) Bednarczik, Dubrowka, Judycki, Kulikowski and Wzdenczny. Then he was in Totsk, Iran and Beirut.

So, again, it cannot be even stated that the priests were "killed separately".

(The Polish source is given: Ks. Kamil Kantak, Od Griazowca do Pahlewi (Fragment z pamietnika//"Marianum w Slurbie", nr. 5-6/71-72, Londyn Wrzesien-Grudzien, 1967, s. 82-84).

(It is thus also not true that only 395 people from Jukhnov survived.)

On p. 521 it is stated that among those sent to execution to Smolensk and Kharkov there were 18 chaplains and other clergymen.

According to the tables in appendices in all three camps there were military clergymen up to the execution.

Data for Kozielsk for 29.11.39/29.12.39/9.1.40/20.1.40/4.2.40/22.2.40/16.3.40/1.4.40: 7 1 1 1 1 1 1 8.

Ostashkov for 29.11.39/31.12.39/9.1.40/20.1.40/4.2.40/22.2.40/16.3.40: 0 11 11 5 5 5 5

Starobielsk for 29.11.39/31.12.39/9.1.40/20.1.40/4.2.40/23.2.40/16.3.40: 12 12 12 12 18 18 9

I will delete the passage. I will also edit the part about officers being put in three camps - it is based on widespread misconception that all the executed POWs were officers. --Polyphem 22:33, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

As an interesting side note, search for Stanislaw Kontek gave a result in the Katyn memorial list (http://www.electronicmuseum.ca/Poland-WW2/katyn_memorial_wall/kmw_K.html). Unless it is a coincidence (and I've seen such with Katyn lists), the list on that page must be based on reconstructed data rather than on the Soviet lists. The reconstructed lists are known to have such glitches.--Polyphem 01:44, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for the interestign sources, you may want to add them to the refence section. While I would approach any Soviet/Russian sources with extreme caution, I don't have any contrary references for this. I added word 'controversial' to the Sikorski's book elink. As far as I can tell, this book has little or no neo-Nazis sympathies and most if its facts are not that controversial; it was from the next decade that Irving works became controversial. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 10:46, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

There is no reason to approach internal (formerly secret) Soviet data "with extreme caution". --Polyphem 11:37, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

You simply should keep in mind who, when and why created them and not trust them blindly Wojsyl 18:38, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Which approach should be taken to _any_ documents. No documents present the absolute truth. Soviet internal documents are not better or worse than Nazi internal documents, British .... etc. etc. --Polyphem 19:46, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Irving's "mistakes"

Meanwhile, here are several indications that Irving is not to be trusted re: Katyn.

http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/controversies/barbers_story_2005.html

"Given that the former Soviet archives reveal that the principal NKVD officers who signed the death warrants and carried out the Katyn massacre were Jewish" - it's a bald-faced lie.

Is it? I don't have sources pro or against. Of course if Irving gives no sources, this is just an accusation and should not be put in our text - but unless you have sources giving another nationality, this cannot be called a lie (it is true that *some* NKVD officers were Jewish, after all, although I wouldn't give much credit to any Irving conspiracy's theoris regarding Jews). One way or another, those sentences are not included in our Wiki article and won't be unless sb can give proof they are correct, so I think this is a rather moot point in this discussion. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 10:57, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Some people in Katyn affair were Jewish. Only one from NKVD comes to mind now, though, L. Raikhman, who did not have any direct involement, but was preparing the Katyn case for Nuremberg. Most executioners were Slavic, and their names can be found in literature, e.g. in the book I mentioned and in "Katyn 1940-2000. Rasstrel. Sud'by zhivykh. Ekho Katyni.", Moscow, 2001. The troika specified in the shooting order, consisted of Merkulov (Russian), Kobulov (Armenian) and Bashtakov (Russian). (Nationalities are given accoring to "Kto rukovodil NKVD", http://www.memo.ru/history/NKVD/kto/biogr/index.htm).--Polyphem 11:36, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

"If he had been captured by the Russians, he would have ended up with the 15,000 other Poles in the mass graves at Katyn." - there weren't 15,000 in Katyn.

Well, it depends if we mean Kozielsk (which was 4,500 according to our text) or other camps (over 20k total).

It doesn't depend on that. The language is clear "mass graves at Katyn". (Besides, there were 15,000 from all camps, not over 20k total).

And I am not sure if during the 60s when Irving wrote the book the exact figures where known,

The exact figure of bodies exhumed at Katyn by the Germans was known from 1943.

remember that it was only after 1990 that Russian admitted their crime

Not after, but in 1990.

and allowed investigations of site/archives. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 10:57, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

http://www.fpp.co.uk/History/General/Katyn/KatynHanged.html - all wrong, the only one sentences on Katyn charges was Duere/Diere, who in 1950s wrote that he was coerced. He wasn't hanged.

It looks like this is an article written by a Canadian professor, not Irving.

So what? He has it on his site as a source. That he accepts it as a fact is evident from http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/month/0199.html

And as I have no sources for pros or against it, I can hardly say how relevant it is to our discussion. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 10:57, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Too bad. I think the book "Katyn. Zbrodnia chroniona tajemnica panstwowa" may contain this information. I took my info from Jazhborovskaja, Jablokov, Parsadanova, "Katynskij sindrom v sovetsko-pol'skikh i rossijsko-pol'skikh otnoshenijakh" (J.S. Jażborowskaja, A.Ju. Jabłokow, W.S. Parsadanowa, Syndrom katyński w stosunkach polsko-radzieckich i polsko-rosyjskich).

http://www.focal.org/overflow/Goebbels.pdf - in the chapter on Katyn Irving distorts the number of victims in the forest. "By April 13 twelve thousand rotting corpses had been exhumed." If he can't get the very basics correct, who knows what errors he made in more advanced stuff? "Apr 16, 1943; the former NKVD officer Petr Soprunenko, who signed the Katyn death warrant, lives in Moscow as an old age pensioner (1994)." - according to the Katyn literature and "Kto rukovodil NKVD", Soprunenko died in 1992. So again the basic, verifiable fact is wrong. And he should have known that Soprunenko didn't sign the order.

--Polyphem 22:54, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I wrote about numbers above,

Me too. And I can add that Goebbels is a relatively recent book.

and as for Soprunenko, well, it is a mistake, but a rather small one. Still, I didn't read this book, I only read Sikorski's one.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 10:57, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

And a final note: of course Irving cannot be trusted. One can discuss how much truth there is in his books, but it is proved that at least parts of what he wrotes are mistakes/lies. I could myself add more examples of errors in his books. So we agree on this. However, this is OT - we should be concerned with factual info in the Katyn Massacre article here, not Irving mistakes, which are not relevant to this article. I took from his book some dates, Berlin Radio quote, Goebbels quote, Ivan Maisky quote, Churchill quotes, which I used to add info to sections 'Discovery' and 'Attempts to cover up the massacre' (see this for my changes, note that there were some minor changes by other users during this period). If you can show me that any of those statements are false, I'd be the first to delete them ASAP. However, we cannot say that since they are based on Irving book they are automatically false and all what he wrote is total fiction. Innocent until proven guilty is still a rule of thumb here. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 11:08, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Hey, how about "I don't trust the Soviet sources" above? :-) Once discredited, the author can't be trusted. I have shown that he makes blatant mistakes in basic facts, sometimes driven by his ideology (as with the "Jewish NKVD" example). Such a source should be verified _before_ using it. --Polyphem 11:36, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I don't trust them, because see Recent Developments section - Russians (at least some of them) are still not willing to admit they did anything wrong. That aside, I don't demand all Soviet sources to be verified. As for Irving, as I wrote, if you think any part of my changes is wrong (or even controversial), please point that out. Otherwise, I see no reason why we should dispute the source. Irving wrote, for example, that the Second World War ended in 1945. Was this a lie as well? :> --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 23:39, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

"I don't trust them, because see Recent Developments section - Russians (at least some of them) are still not willing to admit they did anything wrong." Blatant non sequitur :-)--Polyphem 00:35, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Death toll

Savenkov's death toll

According to http://old.lenta.ru/news/2005/03/22/poland/ he gave only the death toll for the camps, slightly more high than that in Shelepin's letter. Together with the prisons this gives us about 22,000 victims.

According to link you gave Savenkov's death toll is 1803. And 22 (twenty two) of them are identified. : Nekto 13:31, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Some Soviet documents present a higher estimate for the camps - 15,131. E.g. this number can be found in 5.12.43 report of major Denisov. Although it is explicitly stated that all the people were from the three camps, it is not completely clear. It is possible that some Poles from other camps or prisons were killed together with the Poles from the three camps.--Polyphem 19:58, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

One of the problems is the so-called Ukrainian list, or a list of people who were surely murdered in April and May of 1940, but barely anyone knows (that is except for the Russian historians and Military Prosecutors' Office) where were they buried or killed. The name comes from the fact that the majority of those listed there were last seen in various prisons across the Ukraine. Halibu tt 10:54, August 8, 2005 (UTC)

The number of executed

In Russian WIki its 11,000??

in German 14.552 Kriegsgefangene ermordet: Die größten Gruppen davon mit 4.421 in Kozielsk, 6.311 in Ostashkov und 3.982 in Starobielsk

Please sign your comments. I had a chance to remark before - Battle of Polonka I think it was - that Polish historians tend to inflate the figures of casualties by doubling or trebling the actual figure. So I wouldn't be surprized if that is the case here. I would also list Yury Mikhin's monograph Anti-Russian Slur among the sources. We should leave Halibutt worship his Polish booklets alone, or perhaps in company with Wojsyl and Piotrus. Links to prop webistes - www.cia.gov, www.fca.gov.uk - should be purged. Instead, there is an independant website - www.katyn.ru - proving that the whole affair was forged by CIA propaganda. I have no time for it now, but will probably return to the topic after reviewing the conduct of our Polish friends on History of Belarus. --Ghirlandajo 16:25, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

To answer your question, it depends on whether we count only the names on the NKVD list (14.552) or the so-called Ukrainian list as well. The latter lists also Polish officers last seen in various NKVD prisons and camps in the Ukraine who were murdered in smaller actions across the USSR. The latter includes some 8000 names, hence the higher figure. And why the Russian wiki mentions only 11,000 escapes me, especially that the NKVD order itself mentioned 26,700 people...

As to what Ghirlandajo writes above - it's a complete nonsense. Especially that the mass murder happened almost a decade before CIA was formed. Halibu tt 17:04, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Halibutt, you should not consult Polish sources only. The Black Legend assigning the Nazi atrocities to Soviets was forged by the CIA and their Polish agents. --Ghirlandajo 07:50, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Right... Polish agents were faithfull agents of CIA even in 1941, long before it was created. Do you really believe that? As to consulting non-Polish sources, all say basically the same, be them Polish or non-Polish (even Russian sources usually agree). Check almost any of these links if you need non-Polish sources... Halibu tt 10:22, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

http://www.korrespondent.net/main/118266/ her the general prokuror of Russia sayd that in prisononed war only 14 500 officer.1 880 are exekuted.I think in to artikel it better postert the official number as sombodyelseUser:Nikkolai

To give the exact quote: "Установлена гибель 1803 человек (из числа содержавшихся в лагерях), личности 22 человек идентифицированы", - сказал Савенков. Про судьбу остальных он не сказал." Balcer 16:46, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

As is clarified a little down the page, the problem is that the term Katyn massacre might mean both the known mass murder sites where at least 14,540 men are buried, and the mass murder of all the Polish prisoners, possibly killed in the same time at other, still unknown places, following the same orders of March 5, 1940. The case is even more complicated, as the death count prepared by the Russian commission is... classified. Halibu tt 02:53, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

14,000 vs 22,000

I have to take a break from verification now. Can somebody provide a source for the 22,000 number? All sources I have found so far (note I wasn't looking for those numbers on purpose) give about 14-15,000 (Zawodny, Mosnews). PWN on Katyń gives 'kilkanaście tysięcy' (untranslatable polish measurment for between 11,000 and 19,000). Our article currently uses the 22,000: :about 6000 POWs from the Ostashkov camp, about 4,000 POWs from the Starobielsk camp, about 4500 POWs from the Kozielsk camp, and about 7000 prisoners in Western parts of Belarus and Ukraine." Now Zawodny gives the same numbers for camps (actually, somewhat more specific - see my recent additions), and that totals around 15,000. But what source gives that '7000 prisoners in Western parts of Belarus and Ukraine'?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 18:55, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Again, it's a problem of whether we include the Ukrainian list still missing or not. The problem is that there were also a lot of Poles imprisoned in minor camps and prisons in "Western Belarus" and "Western Ukraine". A large number of officers were last seen there and are still missing and presumably killed in the same massacre. The "Ukrainian trace" is mentioned also in several Russian documents, though still little is known. For instance there is a Beria's order of March 22 to transfer ca. 3000 Polish prisoners from prisons in Lwów, Równe, Tarnopol, Stanisławów and Drohobycz to prisons in Kiev, Kharkov and Kherson, while additional 3000 were to be transferred from Brześć, Wilejka, Pińsk and Baranowicze to Minsk. It is often assumed that these could have been murdered in Kuropaty near Minsk and Bykovnia near Kiev. There is archaeological evidence that some Poles were indeed murdered there, but after 60 years little is certain. The Russians have provided the list of names of those transfered to Ukrainian prisons to the Polish historians, but all other documents are lacking, including the analogical list of people sent to Minsk. You can read more on that here, in an article by one of IPN historians - sadly in Polish only.

As to the source for both numbers - it is the infamous Politburo P13/144 document ( for instance), where the case of "14,700 POWS held in the camps - former Polish Army officers, government officials, landowners, policemen, intelligence agents, military policemen, settlers and jailers" is treated together with the case of "arrested and remaining in prisons in the western districts of Ukraine and Byelorussia people in the number of 11 000 - members of various counter-revolutionary spy and sabotage organizations, former landowners, factory owners, former Polish Army officers, government officials and fugitives". Later the group bound for extermination was limited to 18,632 people, and we do not know for sure how many people were in fact murdered following the order of March 5th. Hence the difference in numbers given. Halibu tt 01:41, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Maybe the best solution would be to put these additional numbers in a general article, possibly titled Repression of Poles in the Soviet Union during World War II. I have a feeling that we are trying to cram too much into this article, which should really refer to only those deaths which were verified. After all, the number of Poles who disappeared without a trace in the Soviet Union must run into at least tens of thousands, counting all those who died in the labour camps of the Gulag or from harsh conditions during deportation and exile. Balcer 01:59, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

On the other hand the list of names of those people from Ukraine seems quite related to the massacre and is relevant to this article, so IMO it should be mentioned. However, indeed the problem with the numbers needs to be clarified a tad. Halibu tt 02:47, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

I think that the best solution is to have an entire separate para (or section) dealing with numbers, explaining various estimates from all the sources. Could one of you write it?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 16:47, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Amazing evidence

It is amazing that there is so much more evidence for the Katyn massacre then for homicidal gassings in Auschwitz!

Hitler-Stalin Pact

Shouldn't the Hitler-Stalin Pact be mentioned in the Intro? -Ned

Why not: be bold. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 22:35, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

This incident is in the time of WWII.And anybony can read history of WWII.And why yes?

Non-neutral

I feel this article needs to balance the POVs of Soviet as well as Nazi guilt. I have seen compelling arguments in favor of Nazi guilt but you'd never know that from this article, which treats the Soviet guilt POV as unchallenged fact. Everyking 21:54, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

What do you mean? I am not sure if I understand you - are you saying that Nazis did the massacre? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 22:30, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

I said that's a view that this article does not represent (well, there's one dismissive sentence about it). We should at least stamp a POV template at the top. Everyking 03:59, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Just like the article on Earth does not represent the view that the Earth is flat... Should we add a POV tag there as well? Halibu tt 05:55, August 23, 2005 (UTC)

Oh, that's a nice analogy. Everyking 15:17, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Thanks. Halibu tt 15:44, August 23, 2005 (UTC)

Can you elaborate - whose side is underrepresented, or what anti-something bias can you see? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 17:43, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Question: Is this massacre not simply standard Stalinist procedure? Stalin committed so many violent purges of his own people that, when Hitler's armies suddenly attacked Stalin in 1941, there were scarcely any Russian generals left to resist him. If the Nazi's had not been as bad as Stalin and would not have murdered "inferior" Slavic peasants and Jewish peoples during their attack, the captive peoples of Russia might have risen up against the Soviets and successfully overthrown Stalin instead. Why are you pro-Soviet apologists quibbling over the number of victims in the Katyn Forest Massacre? Stalin was a murdering, paranoid fanatic and a sociopath. It's a wonder there is anyone left in Russia alive. He didn't just have twenty thousand people from Poland executed. Stalin murdered millions of people! He had over five million people starved to death in the Ukraine alone! When did the Soviet army ever overrun any territory and there was not a massacre of innocent civilians afterward? Did any country or people ever say to the Soviets, "Hey. We don't know how to run our country. Please come in and show us how to do it"? Exactly. The very purpose of Soviet plans for world domination is to liquidate the intelligentsia (those who know how to run things, like the victims murdered and dumped at Katyn) after conquering the territory, in order to eliminate the very idea of any other system other than communism. -Ned. (Sept.) Maybe the Soviets should set up a program about world hunger: "How to have all your crops fail for seventy-five years in a row." My above point is this: the Katyn Forest Massacre didn't happen within a historic vacuum. After the Bolshevik Revolution, which was violent, the Soviets first massacred the people around Moscow who were related in any way to Czarist Russia. Then the Soviets massacred the people in the nearer provinces whom they thought might resist. Then the Soviets eliminated the people in the outer provinces who didn't like what they were doing. It was systematic. It took the Soviets decades to consolidate their power in Russia (while the West stood by). It is standard procedure for Communists to eliminate the enemies of their revolution. Within this context of historical methodology (no matter how violent or murderous it is), the Katyn Massacre should not really surprise anybody. It is what the Communists always do.-Ned. (Sept.)

You probably meant to say: "that's what dictatorships always do". The size of killing in Suviet Union is simply because the country was big and the killing tools were modern and eficient. mikka (t) 20:01, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

-- Quite frankly, I think most central/eastern europeans would closely sympathize with the poles on this loss although it is relatively small, if one may say that! The soviets, especially through Stalin, did murder millions of people indeed, of their own too. They also displaced large populations and re-colonized annexed territories to the point of identity loss for some smaller countries. The tragedy and scale of all that is hard to grasp from the relative comfort of the west. The interesting point though is how, according to the reporting from this year's May 9th celebrations for instance, Stalin is still favorably viewed by many russians and even their official position on the matter seemed somewhat ambiguous. R(sept.05)

I don't believe POV ranting has any place here. If you're not talking about how to improve this article then it doesn't belong. Everyking 02:44, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

This is a discussion page, isn't it? My comments are providing background information on Stalinist methodology: Stalin always did the same thing, for as long as he remained in power. He murdered masses of people everywhere, in everyplace that he was in control, to further Marxist-Leninist goals, and to gain power. Is this not true? Does this not have a historical bearing upon the Katyn Forest Massacre? Is it not relevant to the discussion?-Ned (Sept.)

As far as I know, the view that the Nazis perpetrated the massacre is not espoused by any major historians, governments, or organizations that have investigated the matter. The Russians themselves have admitted guilt, and produced quite detailed documents that would be hard to refute. There may be people who still think the Soviets are innocent in the matter, but I fear they are on not much less shaky ground than the alluded-to flat-earthers, or perhaps, to choose a more relevant analogy, Holocaust deniers. --Delirium 12:03, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

OK, now it has been improved, although I don't expect it to stay that way for long. I think it's a difficult question, and certainly not one I'm qualified to grapple with. But I can come up with a few thoughts about it. Clearly, in the West, Soviet guilt is pretty much unquestioned in mainstream history. When you come at it that way it looks like a question of the notability of the view, not the accuracy of the view—is the view of Nazi guilt notable enough to warrant this balanced treatment, and if so to what degree? But on the other hand, what is the view in, say, Russia? How do the competing views compare in terms of notability there? I'm guessing—I don't know this—that the view of Nazi guilt is probably a good bit common there, perhaps mainstream and in practical competition with the view of Soviet guilt. So I think it's a complex question that requires a lot of consideration. Everyking 09:15, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

I, too, have seen some compelling arguments aimed at blaming the Nazis for the Katyn massacre. My history prof introduced the issue neutrally. Simply put, when the site of the massacre was discovered, the Nazis blamed the Soviets and the Soviets blamed the Nazis. People today are too quick to jump to the conclusion that the Soviets are responsible for the killings just because the Nazis discovered the site. The Nazis may be responsible for the massacre: they were certainly masters of propaganda. If they are in fact responsible, the issue parallels the Reichstag fire in 1933. I'm not saying they are responsible, I'm simply pointing out that we can't justify either POV 100%. I believe that the article should be represented more neutrally than has been done. -Maria 24.68.123.204 04:29, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

When did you take the history class? The kind of ambivalent view that you are proposing might have been justified, if only just barely, before 1989. However, since then the Soviet Union and then Russia have admitted that the Soviets carried out the massacre, have produced the original documents in which the order was given by Stalin's politburo, and exhumed additional mass graves in places which the German army never reached, removing any possibility that the dead in those mass graves were killed by the Germans. In short, after those revelations there is no longer the slightest doubt among serious historians as to who carried out the massacre. Those who wish to question the facts even in the face of this overwhelming evidence verge on engaging in denial. Balcer 07:17, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

This Ned guy is a highly annoying. His hysterical anti-Marxist and anti-progressive rhetoric has got no place in a web site that strives to maintain balance of its subjects. Even the contributers of the immensely anti-communist "Black Book of Communism" work have conceded that the conventional history in regard to Yezhov's purge of military officers have been quite exaggerated. 30,000 out of 178,000 relevant cadres were effected. Has anyone else taken into consideration that Poland unleashed aggression on revolutionary Russia during the Civil War and Intervention years that resulted in considerable cession of territory? Zvesda

Featured status?

Ladies and gentlemen, this article is now FA on the Hebrew wiki. How about improving it to FA standard here as well? For now I added all the pics the Polish wiki article uses. What is lacking? Halibu tt 13:07, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

If you help me with referencing the facts, I am sure we can get this FA soon :) --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 18:59, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Survivors' Tales

There are also many tales, although the authenticity unknown, of many escaped POWs who claimed it was the Soviets, and the Polish believed them to be crazy. This would be nice to include as well. I'll see what I can come up with.

Never heard of any escapees... There were several hundred (ca. 300, if memory serves me right) prisoners who were on the killing lists, but were instead transferred to a special NKVD villa, where they were kept as a reservoir of Polish officers in case Stalin needed them. One of them was even returned from the railway station, some 500 metres from the mass murder site, and his testimony is quite notable. However, as I said, these people escaped the death, but not from the camps.. Halibu tt 02:44, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Would this survivor be professor Stanislaw Swianiewicz/Stanisław Świaniewicz mentioned by Fisher?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 16:45, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Yup, that's the guy. And he is mentioned in practically every publication, as his case is somehow notable. Halibu tt 23:54, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

"Massacre", "Incident", "Execution" ?

I found this on someone's talk page tonight:

On Misplaced Pages: Soviet troops shooting Polish army officers is a massacre. US troops shooting Korean civilians is an incident.

I suggest we rename this page the "Katyn incident". If American troops can gun down unarmed civilans and it be called an "incident", to pacify American jingoists , I think it is only fair that we rename this massacre, involving military POWs an incident too. Travb 08:05, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, firstly, I don't think we should hold this article hostage of any other article. If the No Gun Ri incident is known as such in English - that's fine with me, but it mustn't be the same with this article.

Having said that, I think that this article's title might indeed need some revision. What is the most popular name in English? In Polish it seems to be Zbrodnia katyńska, or the crime of Katyn in English.. Halibu tt 08:35, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

I would vote for Katyn executions. Enough massacres. Judging by Halibutt's edits, the Poles were massacred here, there, and everywhere. --Ghirlandajo 09:16, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

I feel like execution somehow assumed some sort of guilt from the executed (maybe imagined by the executioners). I do not think it was the case, unless we will consider credible accusation that some prisoners somehow conspired with the Nazi. So I am personally for massacre. On the other hand the beginning of the third section Up to 99% of the remaining prisoners were subsequently murdered. People from Kozielsk were murdered in the usual mass murder site of Smolensk country, called Katyn forest; people from Starobielsk were murdered in the inner NKVD prison of Kharkov and the bodies were buried near Pyatikhatki; and police officers from Ostashkov were murdered... does not look NPOV. If some murders would be change to massacres, executions or killing it would increase the readability of the section without acquitting the perpetrators of the massacre. abakharev 10:32, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Fully agreed. Halibu tt

If we accept this terminology, most of Stalinist repressions, or Purges as they are called in the west, should be renamed to massacres. We'll have to start thousands of massacre articles then. --Ghirlandajo 10:49, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Executions were but a final stage of the whole process, so I doubt it is the best idea to name the article that way. Unless of course we plan to expand the article significantly and divide it onto several sub-articles, much like Malmédy massacre and Malmédy massacre trial or Warsaw Uprising divided onto seven or so articles. And indeed, Poles were massacred in a plenty of places, Katyn is but one of them - though it was quite a notable example. Halibu tt 09:24, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

BTW, Ghirlandajo, you still failed to explain your view at Talk:Ostashkov and failed to reply to my explanations and questions at your talk page and my RfA. Do you plan to do it any time? Halibu tt 09:30, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

As I've said 20 times before, the camp was situated on Stolbnyi Island and not in the town of Ostashkov itself. The ignorance of Polish writers who call it "a village near Pskov" (although Ostashkov is farther from Pskov than Paris is from London) and ignore the existance of the Nilov Monastery, where the camp was actually housed, is not an excuse sufficient to add the data about this camp in any article pertaining to the monastery in question. --Ghirlandajo 10:19, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

You failed to mention the ignorance of the NKVD who called the camp the Ostashkov Special Camp. Halibu tt 11:58, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

And what do you expect? That they would call it "the Nilov holy monastery camp"? Of course they named the camp after the nearest town. --Ghirlandajo 12:11, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

But still you prefer to keep the info on the camp under the name that was not used and erase it in the article on the name that is actually applied to it, both by the NKVD, modern historians and even the press... Anyway, the questions at Talk:Ostashkov are still open. Halibu tt 13:37, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

While myself I would prefer the name "crime" as better describing the act of killing POVs, I'm afraid that in English language it's better known as a "massacre". Could anyone confirm this ? --Wojsyl 22:45, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't think the original suggestion was in good faith. If User:Travb believes that the name No_Gun_Ri_incident is POV or a whitewash he should argue his case at that article's talk page instead of trying to rename this one. Two wrongs don't make a right.

As far as I know, "Katyn Massacre", or sometimes "Katyn Forest Massacre" is the usual name in English. It's used by Brittanica, The Columbia Encyclopedia and The UK Foreign Office , just to name a few. --BadSeed 01:41, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Execution and only Execution!It is mohr neutral.Wiki is not Goverment Propaganda site!!!

And what is writed in Brittanica abaut Irak.US, British and Polish troops are liberator or occupant? NPOV (unsigned by anon)

How about the other word in the name. I mean that thingy above "n". The village is not in Poland and never was. The anon who changed the name had smth on his mind when doing so, but I have no idea. To me having the Polish name here implies that this is purely a Polish related event and I very much don't think so. This speaks about the Stalin regime a lot, thus it is very much SU related. That said, I think that "massacre" in the name is a POV term and should be changed along with the "ń" in Katyn. --Irpen 18:09, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

All right, why do you think that "massacre" is POV ? It was a massacre, wasn't it ? --Wojsyl 19:44, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

OK, do I take it that you support riddance of "ń"? Now as to whether it was a massacre, please do not label me a Holocaust denier but it was not. Execution of prionsers is a War Crime but not necessarily of Massacre which bears the flavor of mass killing of the civilian population during the hostilities, and usually includes murder of women and chlildren. This was a war crime no doubt. In RU/UA sources it is usually called a Katyn Tragedy but I am not sure "tragedy" bodes well into a WP article title. Any other suggestions?

Could we discuss one at a time ? I'd leave the "ń" quretion for later discussion if it's all right with you. I would like to understand why do you think that mass killing of POWs is a war crime but not a massacre. It seems to perfectly match the defintion of a massacre. Why are you saying that "a massacre usually includes murder of women and chlildren" ? Also, according to google, the name is "Katyń massacre". I don't see what is wrong with that. Is it offending the memory of the murderers ? --Wojsyl 21:20, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

BTW, here's a randomly chosen modern English text on it. I hope you will not find it POV: http://www.epolitix.com/EN/MPWebsites/Denis+MacShane/73b5e875-15af-4505-b7e0-0ef3ea413739.htm

OK, I checked the dictionary and the meaning of massacre is more inclusive than the perception I had. I would use "crime" or "incident", but fine, let's keep it if so many editors would like to use this term. I also withdraw my objection to "ń". If consensus has it that it is a purely Polish topic, let it have a Polish name. I just thought differently. --Irpen 02:32, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

When it comes to the "ń" sign, for me it's a minor problem. I would support getting rid of it to make the name follow the rules of transliteration of Russian to English, but would not oppose if others decide it should stay. Halibu tt 02:41, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

While I'm quite firm that (for whatever reason) the English name is "massacre" for this, I'm almost indifferent to the "ń". That is, I think it could stay as in fact a Polish name for a historical event rather than a geographic notation. It also could go if someone feels offended by the "ń" or has other good reasons to change it to "n" (other than "this is English wikipedia and everything should be in ASCII then"). In Russian the name also has the soft "n" at the end, anyway. So I'd rather keep the accent as in Rus', it does no harm. --Wojsyl

GB - Google Books, GS - Google Scholar:

Katyn Massacre - GB 10 books, GS 61 results
Katyn Incident - 6 books, GS 1 result (!)
Katyn Execution - no results
Katyn Genocide - no results
Katyn Crime - 6 GB results, GS 2 results
Katyn Murder - 2 GB, 1 GS
Katyn Atrocity - 5 GB, 1 GS.

Therefore it seems that the Katyn Massacre is the best name, with Incident, Attrocity, Crime and possibly Murder being redirects and mentioned in the lead as alternative, if rare, English names. As for 'n' vs. 'ń', Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (use English) indicates there is no consensus on use of diactrics. As long as we have Katyn Massacre redirect to Katyń Massacre, I think this is really not important - people will find it.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 16:43, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

BTW, contrary to what has been suggested, in Polish the Katyn is rarely if ever referred to as massacre.

Mord katyński + Mord w Katyniu (Katyn murder and Murder in Katyn) 986 + 507
Zbrodnia katyńska + Zbrodnia w Katyniu (Katyn crime or Katyn attrocity + Crime in Katyn) 784 + 276
Masakra katyńska + Masakra w Katyniu (Katyn massacre + Massacre in Katyn) 19 + 54.

Halibu tt 00:16, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Actually, the results Piortus posted are not quite correct, the number of Google Books with "Katyn Massacre" is 127 , not 10. On the other hand the number of Google books for "Katyn Incident" is 5, one of which is a quote from Goebbles, ...we have been able to convert the Katyn incident into a highly political question. Halibutt pointed out that "Katin Incident" gets about 200 google hits , but just under half of those hits are for the above mentioned Goebbles quote. Note that both these searches included Misplaced Pages mirrors results.

Given this to claim that The Katyń massacre, also known as the Katyn Incident and Katyn Forest Massacre, is misleading if not downright false. "Katyn Incident" is nowhere near notable enough a usage to be given an "also known as", and in any case it is used about 130 times less than "Katyn Forest Massacre", which it precedes. If editors want to include the Polish or Russian names they should put them in in Polish or Russian, but the English usage is quite clear.

BTW, what exactly does the NPOV tag refer to? --BadSeed 15:22, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

NPOV

I recently NPOVed the header after Ghirlandajo's edits. Firts of all, the name he proposes ("katyn incident") is completely unknown to the world. It gives 203 links in Google, as opposed to 29,600 for "Katyn massacre" and additional 13,800 for "Katyn forest massacre". Which gives some 220:1 odds against the proposed version...

As to the view that the Germans were responsible, I believe we should at least cite some credible source or historian to mention that in the header. Holocaust denial is not mentioned in the header of the articles on Auschwitz concentration camp or The Holocaust, so I doubt we should mention it here. Especially that it is against established facts and mentioning it as an equally-valid view would be promotion of certain rare POV, not maintaining NPOV. But of course Ghirlandajo reverted my edits, so I doubt anything could be done... Halibu tt 10:15, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

As a sidenote, now that Ghirlandajo's unsupported claims are promoted, I wonder whether we should add the {{totallydisputed}} tag, or simply the {{NPOV}} and {{dispute}} tags... Halibu tt

I mentioned above how we need to determine the notability of the German guilt viewpoint. In the West, it is only marginally notable, but what about in Russia and some other countries? We need to know how much currency the view has there, too, to determine how much coverage it should get in this article. I agree that there should be good sources and citations. Those are good to have in any situation, and particularly when there's controversy. Everyking 10:27, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, as to the "German guilt" version I've seen only a couple of Russian newspaper articles and one webpage claiming that. Though perhaps there are some serious modern sources as well, I don't know that. Perhaps Ghirlandajo could provide such sources... Halibu tt 10:37, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

My rapid Yandex search found 28000 entries for "катынь" and "подлость", including www.katyn.ru. You may want to check the online book claiming that the affair was falsified by Polish-US prop: http://www.libereya.ru/biblus/muhin/. I haven't looked into these entries closely, but there's an interesting picture at http://www.hrono.ru/sobyt/1900sob/1941katyn.html, which shows that the Katyn officers were executed the "Nazi way", when the shot is aimed in the skull rather than neck. As is well known, NKVD offciers executed people by shooting at their neck. --Ghirlandajo 10:53, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Don't you find it strange that you constantly accuse people of using Polish sources only, yet all you provide is links in Russian? Anyway, the links you provide indeed support the thesis that there is some belief for "western conspiracy" theory in Russia. However, none of the sites is able to negate the fact that the Russians finally admitted that it was the NKVD to commit the massacre. BTW, I find the book "Anti-Russian Cruelty" you provided especially notable. The blob goes as follows:

In order to unite Europe in the fight against the advancing Red Army, in 1943 Hitler ordered the graves with Polish officers shot by the Germans in 1941 near Smolensk, to be unearthed, and to announce to the world that they were allegedly killed in 1940 by the NKVD USSR by the orders of "Moscow Jews". The Polish exiled authorities, sitting in London and selling its allies, got caught by this hitlerite provocation and as a result during WWII additional millions of soldiers of USSR, UK, USA and Germany were killed. In order to denude the Russian allies and to give a nudge on the countries of the Western Europe and NATO, the scum of Central Committee of KPSU, Procurators' Office of the USSR and Academy of Sciences of the Russian Federation have reanimated the provocation in the 1980's. For students of law faculties and for all who consider Russia their Motherland.

Below goes the list of chapters:

Preface;
Nurnberg minutes
- Poland under the szlachta yoke
- Goebbels' cronies on Poland in the pre-war period and during WWII
- Poland as a hyena of the battlefield
- War Polish-style: advocacy of Poland
- War Polish-style: liberation of Poland
- Story of inquiry of guilt in agression
Falsification of the Katyn case
- Initial circumstances, motives and description of the Katyn crime
- Falsification of the Katyn case by the Germans and Poles in 1943
- Unveiling the Goebbels' falsification of the Katyn case in 1944
- Falsification of the Katyn case between Goebbels and Gorbachov
- Goebbels' version of the Katyn case as per 2002
- Explanation of Goebbels' men from the CPUSSR falsificates

That speaks for itself, doesn't it. Halibu tt 11:48, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

While I cannot comment on the book which I haven't (and won't) read, I just want to point out that the version of the events currently expounded in the article is by no means the only one. It is one of several explanations, and that's it. --Ghirlandajo 12:11, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Of course-they are people who wrote books about USA being taken over by space aliens.But such fabrications aren't in the USA article.I have nothing against adding a chapter on attempts to hide or downplay the atrocity by Soviet and Russian propaganda, though. --Molobo 12:42, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Indeed, the article on Earth does not claim that the Flat Earth phenomenon is an equally valid view. On the other hand the belief that the Soviets did not commit that attrocity seems to be well-established in Russia and as such is worth mentioning. Halibu tt 13:24, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

I believe it should be worded otherwise. We should mention that the version that the Soviets commited that atrocity was first expounded by Goebbels (I would call it Goebbels's version), later propagated by the CIA (a convenient link to their website follows), and finally taken up by the Polish editors of this Misplaced Pages. Then it will be clear enough. --Ghirlandajo 14:30, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

There is a limit to how far one can go in questioning well established historical facts. The overwhelming historical concensus right now is that the Soviets carried out the killings. Finding some obscure websites and publications which publish a contrary view does not mean that those views must be included in Misplaced Pages (compare Holocaust Denial). If Ghirlandajo persists in pushing his views, I fear we might have to take the same steps we would take against somebody who persistently edited the Auschwitz article to say that no Jews died there in its gas chambers (just to give an example). Balcer 17:30, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Balcer, your comment is a huge dissapointment for me. I was thinking that there was at least one Pole not brainwashed by Polish prop, but now I see this is not the case. Firstly, noone denies that the execution did happen. Who perpetrated it is a completely different question. As i said above, if this is encyclopedia and it presumes to be objective, then it should mention various points of view and not a single one. Misplaced Pages is free for everyone to edit, and every reasonable point of view should be mentioned therein. What I see now is that there is a point of view that the crimes was perpetrated by the Nazis and that its adherents have some evidence to back up their claims. When I used yandex search, it became clear to me that this point of view is quite popular (not in Poland, you may be sure). So I can't understand why there are editors who should be strongly opposed to take this point of view seriously and prefer not to mention it in the article which they seem to have privatized for themselves. --Ghirlandajo 20:08, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

It is because this point of view does not have any academic backing outside the Soviet Russia. --Wojsyl 20:21, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Ghirlandajo, you have answered your own doubts above. Every reasonable point of view. That is every that is at least supported by some serious publications and is not just a view of some extremists. As I said above, it could be mentioned just like Holocaust denial is in the article on The Holocaust, but making it an equally valid view is in fact its promotion. Yes, POV-pushing and usage of wikipedia to promote some obscure view. Halibu tt 22:17, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

On another note, the site mentioning the "Nazi way" of execution uses the guy to publish the "Anti-Russian Cruelty" as the sole source. And, strangely enough, it does not mention for instance the Van Vliet's report, in which it is mentioned that These all had their hands tied behind them with cord. The rest appeared not to have been tied. All bodies had a bullet hole in the back of head, near the neck, with the exit wound of the bullet being in the forehead or front upper part of the skull.... Halibu tt 00:52, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Attempts at denial

The actions of some editors attempting to edit the article to imply that the basic facts of the Katyń massacre are in dispute are reprehensible. There is a limit to how far the idea of NPOV can go, and it surely stops once attempts are made to deny basic historical facts accepted by overwhelming concensus. If these actions persist, they will seriously harm the credibility of Misplaced Pages, and may bring unwelcome attention to Misplaced Pages's reliability as a historical source from the media (which we have seen too much of recently, see John Seigenthaler Sr. Misplaced Pages biography controversy and latest Google news stories) Balcer 18:08, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

To quote Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view:

We can certainly include long discussions that present our moral repugnance to such things; in doing so, we can maintain a healthy, consistent support for the neutral point of view by attributing the view to prominent representatives or to some group of people. Others will be able to make up their own minds and, being reasonable, surely come around to our view.

and:

the Misplaced Pages neutrality policy certainly does not state, or imply, that we must "give equal validity" to minority views. It does state that we must not take a stand on them qua encyclopedia writers; but that does not stop us from describing the majority views as such; from fairly explaining the strong arguments against the pseudoscientific theory; from describing the strong moral repugnance that many people feel toward some morally repugnant views; and so forth.

If the problem, on the other hand, is not with describing minority POVs (and determining how widespread a minority POV is can be a whole different can of worms), but rather with some editors trying insert their particular POV into articles, then it can be addressed through negotiations or, if all else fails, Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution. Admittedly, it can be a time consuming and frustrating process, which is a well-known criticism of the "Misplaced Pages way". Ahasuerus 18:25, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

The point is: how small does the minority have to get before we lock its bizarre views out of Misplaced Pages? I am certain, for example, that you could find small groups in the US which believe that the US government is run by extraterrestials, but those views surely do not belong in a Misplaced Pages entry on US government. More to the point, most of our current articles related to the Holocaust do not present Holocaust Denial as an equally valid view, in fact they do not even mention it as the minority view (as articles on Belzec, Majdanek, Treblinka etc. do not state in the lead: A minority of people believes this never happened). Balcer 18:37, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

The size of the minority that holds dissenting views is undoubtedly relevant. As Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view states:

views held only by a tiny minority of people should not be represented as though they are significant minority views, and perhaps should not be represented at all.

The trick, however, is determining just how tiny the minority is. Have there been any public opinion surveys in Russia?

As far as the comparison with the listed death camps goes, the difference here is that there is only one article that covers the Katyn massacre and there are many that cover the Holocaust. If you compare the amount of space dedicated to Holocaust denial and associated topics by Misplaced Pages, it accounts for a rather large part of the total Holocaust material here.

Having said that, there are different ways to cover minority opinions. You can have a separate article which lists minority arguments or you can have a section at the end of the main article or any number of other ways. But the important thing is that we are not doing original research and we are not taking sides here, we are simply trying to describe all the non-trivial POVs out there. If there is a significant minority POV that holds a different opinion, be it Katyn or Immanuel Velikovsky or Shaver Mystery, we don't want to take sides, we just describe them as fairly as we can. Ahasuerus 19:11, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

I would have no problem with a section at the end dealing with attempts to deny the basic facts of the massacre, and other editors have already suggested this approach. I have a serious problem with some editors trying to question these facts in the lead, presenting the discretited view that the Germans have carried out the massacre as equally viable.

By the way, are you serious about using public opinion polls to determine what the content of Misplaced Pages should be? Let me quote George Carlin here: Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.Balcer 19:25, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Public opinion surveys are useful when there is no other way to determine how widespread a particular minority opinion is. For example, there are very few elected officials in the US who publicly use anti-semitic rhetoric these days, but carefully worded/parsed/weighed/etc public opinion surveys suggest that 12% to 17% of US citizens subscribe to some form of anti-semitism. Listing these results in Misplaced Pages (with links to Gallup et al) would be perfectly legitimate. Similarly, I am unaware of any governments or peer reviewed publications that still endorse the view that the Katyn massacre was committed by the Nazis, but if there is a non-trivial amount of public opinion support for the idea, then it should be noted. Ahasuerus 19:41, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm afraid an encyclopedic article is not quite about public opinion surveys but facts. This particular article is about a historical event: historic research counts, original research does not. --Wojsyl 20:01, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

The term "original research" as used by WP:NOR refers to original research by editors of Misplaced Pages, not to opinions held by the public. Since approximately 45% of adult Americans subscribe to the Young Earth hypothesis, we will describe it fairly and sympathetically, even though the scientific consensus is against it. Ahasuerus

Exactly so, but using public opinion to determine the factual accuracy of historic events is an original research performed by editors of Misplaced Pages, and not by the public. --Wojsyl 20:48, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

If we tried to use poll results to determine factual accuracy of historic events, it would certainly yield all kinds of interesting results. I wonder who won the War of the Spanish Succession according to the public? :) However, the proposal currently under discussion is much more modest in scope and has to do with covering minority opinions in the article. As WP:NPOV states, Misplaced Pages is a general encyclopedia, which means it is a representation of human knowledge at some level of generality ... for the purposes of working on Misplaced Pages ... "human knowledge" includes all different significant theories on all different topics. Thus a theory doesn't have to be "true", just "significant", to be included. For example, the notion that the German army was "backstabbed" in November 1918 was not well supported by the evidence available in 1925 or shared by any "reputable sources", but it was popular in the 1920s nonetheless and proved important in Hitler's rise to power. With the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, we now know that if there had been a Misplaced Pages in 1925, its editors would have been well advised to describe this theory even if they had considered it to be without basis in fact. Of course, there is no way of telling ahead of time which popular theories may become important in the future and which ones may fade away, so we use their current popularity as the main criterion for inclusion/exclusion.

And again, just to make sure that we are all on the same page, I am not suggesting that we should give equal time to all theories, only that we should describe minority theories (no matter how unconvincing or odious you may find them personally) as well. Ahasuerus 21:34, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Certainly yes, then. However it would be best to refer the sources of the alternative theories, and explain their (in)significance in proper context. I'm not a specialist on this particular topic, but I believe that the fact that the alternative Soviet theory was just a product of propaganda has been long established by historians beyond any doubt, based on the dates of the murder. --Wojsyl 22:16, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

As to whether Misplaced Pages articles deal with facts or public opinion, well, Misplaced Pages editors do not decide what the facts are, they just record what other, pre-existing, sources state. Clearly, a preponderance of sources, including archival sources, official government publications and peer reviewed articles support the notion that the Soviets were the ones that carried out the killings, but there is also a minority opinion that believes otherwise. If there is evidence that it's a non-trivial minority (and the Internet makes it easy for a small but dedicated group to make its views appear more prominent than they would be otherwise), then we should include it in some form. Ahasuerus 20:33, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

It perhaps might be notable that the Russian wiki article on Катынь does not even mention modern "Katyn denial". It does mention the Soviet attempts to cover up the crime and explains in full the recent problem with Russian Military Prosecutors' Office investigation, though it does not mention anything close to what has been suggested here... Halibu tt 12:21, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

I would like to see more evidence that the denial of the Soviet role is widespread in Russia. If such evidence is not presented, I think we should remove the sententence about this phenomenon from the lead and place it further down, in the section dealing with the attempts at denying the facts of the massacre. Balcer 19:53, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Besides Muchin's book there are many materials which based on the pre-1986 historiography where nazies are claimed to be actual killers. Some political parties like CPRF or "Rodina" denies NKVD blame (). http://www.katyn.ru/ also disputes polish version. --ru:Участник:Boleslav1

Actually, if you look at the history of the article you'll find that we also had some provocatoures trying to insert such ridicules claims into the article but the community dealed with them. The book isn't really important in Russia, however unfortunatley there are a bunch of nuts who belive this just like say in the US there people who belive aliens crashed in Roswell. It is itself an interesting fenomenon that should maybe be mentioned in an article about the modern Russian society but I agree it's not relevent here.

Katyn and Holocaust

To say the truth, I'm quite shocked at Balcer's comparison of Katyn and Holocaust. It seemed to me fairly certain that any attempt to compare the Holocaust with other killings should be considered offensive per se, as it results in belittling of the Holocaust's unique tragedy. No I see that there are people, at least in Poland, who are eager to compare the execution of several thousand officers with a wide-scale annihilation of the nation, including children, women, civilians. As awful as it is, such executions as the former were a fairly common thing under Stalin's criminal regime. If it was NKVD who perpetrated the crime, I don't see why Katyn should be distiniguished from similar and even more ghastly executions carried on by the same organization. We should keep in mind that the officers executed there were the same that prepared the projected Polish invasion of the Soviet Union in 1939. They were not angels, to say the least. Polish historians forget to mention that thousnads of Soviet POWs died from hunger in Pilsudski's concentration camps after they had been taken captive during the Polish-Soviet War. So I can't compare Katyn with Holocaust, sorry. I hope that Balcer will apologize for his inept and disgusting comment. --Ghirlandajo 20:22, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

The fact that NKVD murdered other people does not justify murdering Polish POVs. I'll not comment on your allegations about Polish plans to invade Soviet Union in 1939, pardon me. --Wojsyl 20:54, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

These are not allegations but hard facts. Poland, who had at her disposal one of the largest armies in the world, was defeated by Hitler so rapidly and ignominously partly due to the fact that the whole army was stationed on eastern borders, preparing to invade the Soviet Union, like they had done back in 1919. --Ghirlandajo 21:03, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I've heard it from you before. The more I'm not likely to take seriously your revelations about Katyń. --Wojsyl 21:15, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Ghirlandajo, could you please point me to some sources which discuss the supposed readiness of Poland to invade the USSR in 1939? I would also like to know the source of the view in which Poland, with a population of 35 million, managed to have one of the largest armies in the world. Surely the German army and the Red Army were much bigger. Even one book or link would be great. I am truly curious which scholars or groups would hold such bizarre views. Balcer 23:33, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Oh my God... Ghirlandajo, just a simple question: do you really believe what you just wrote above? Frankly and sincerely? I especially mean your revelations about the Polish invasion of the USSR? It's now clear that you never read a book on the campaign of 1939, but surely you could've at least taken look at any map of the Polish dislocation after the mobilization... Map, description, anything. Even the wiki article could be a good starter... Same goes for the Bolshevik POWs of the war of 1919-1920, you could try reading one of the three books published on the topic. You dislike Polish sources, so you might try the book written by the Russian author, it should be available in where you live...

As to your Holocaust remarks - I'll only note that from the perspective of the victims there is little difference between Soviet and German attrocities. Would you be more happy to die knowing that you're one of "only" 20,000 killed and not several times more? Or perhaps your family would find it somehow comforting? I doubt it. Halibu tt 22:34, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Ghirlandajo has developed a nasty habit of ascribing to other editors attitudes which they do not hold and putting words into their mouths. Let me make it clear then: I do not consider the Katyn Massacre, with its murder of tens of thousands, to be a tragedy on the same level as the whole Holocaust, with its murder of six million. Nowhere did I make a claim like that in my comments.

What I did say was that decent people do put certain limits on the range of views which they tolerate in mainstream discourse, and by extension on Misplaced Pages. Holocaust Denial is an example of a view, held by a small minority, which is not allowed to be presented as a valid alternative to mainstream views. Similarly, I believe the same approach should apply to those who wish to deny well documented historical atrocities committed by the Soviet regime. Balcer 22:53, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Balcer, your faulty logic reminds one of Halibutt who can't see any difference between Belarusians and Poles. I repeat once again and slowly - can you see a difference between the questions of fact and guilt? Fact is an objective category, guilt is a subjective one. Holocaust Denial consists in denial of the *fact*. Nobody denies the fact of the Katyn executions. Who was *guilty* of the crime - this remains to be established. --Ghirlandajo 10:05, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

I find your view somewhat puzzling, Ghirlandajo. Surely the questions: who carried out the massacre, who ordered it, and when it occured are questions of objective fact. Balcer 16:31, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Ghirlandajo, perhaps you have a dual personality? Just a few days ago you yourself wrote that the whole affair was forged by CIA propaganda. Don't you agree with yourself?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 16:34, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

And again I envy Balcer for having said what I would never be able to - at least not as loudly and clearly. Halibu tt 22:58, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

reserve officers...during the ... War of 1939

??why reserve officers during the War ??It is better only officer

The problem of Poland was that practically every educated male was a reserve officer. And among those killed a large portion were reserve officers, that is medics, lawyers, writers, engineers, professors and so on. Hence the statement that a large part of the Polish intelligentsia of the time was murdered. Halibu tt 22:20, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes of cours but durring the WWII reserve officers are only officers!!

Looking at it from the other side, during WWII the professors, medicians, lawyers and so on were also reserve officers. Halibu tt 07:05, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

officers taken prisoner during the course of the Polish Defensive War of 1939

OR ONLY during the WWII. Howe many links give Google for Polish Defensive War and WWII.I think WWII its better why Polish Defensive War is completely unknown to the world.

Saying WWII would be a dangerous generalization, since Soviets basically changed sides - in 1939 they were allied with Nazis against Poland, but from 1941 they fought against the Nazis and were (nominally) Poland's allies. Soviets were not taking Polish POWs during the IIWW proper (Great Patriotic War), only during the Polish Defensive War (perhaps better known as the Polish September Campaign). IIWW began for Poland in 1939, but for Soviets only in 1941. On another note, the term POW is also not fullproof: Fisher wrotes: "Strictly speaking, even the Polish servicemen were not POWs. The USSR had not declared war, and the Polish commander in chief had ordered his troops not to engage Soviet forces.".--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 17:10, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

That's a rather messy area. "World War II" was a super-conflict that encompassed multiple conflicts over a 6 year period. The "core" conflict was the familiar confrontation between the Axis and the Allies, but many countries changed allegiance as circumstances changed. For example, in May 1940 the French and the British were fighting Germany together, but by July 1940 their were fighting each other at Mers-el-Kebir. Moreover, some countries had multiple competing self-proclaimed governments (France, Poland, the Baltics) throughout the war, which makes things even more complicated. Other countries (e.g. Finland, Japan), spent much of the war fighting some (but not all) Allied countries, and so on and so forth. The Soviet Union was Germany's semi-ally in 1939-1940 in the grand old "divide and conquer" tradition ("we'll cheer you on and send you raw materials while we are digesting chunks of Poland, Romania, Finland, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia"), but the relationship quickly soured in the second half of 1940 once there was nothing left to divide in Europe except the Balkans.

The question, however, is whether the "Polish Defensive War of 1939" is the best term to describe the Polish-German war of 1939 and googling on either ww.google.com or print.google.com suggests otherwise. But that's really a topic for that article's Talk page, one would think. Ahasuerus 18:22, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

The problem with the terms related to the war of 1939 is at least half a century old. Half of the "war with Germany" of 1939 was fought against the Soviets on a second front. Hence the term war is more appropriate than campaign (the war of 1939 consisted of two campaigns, one in the east and one in the west). It is well-explained at Talk:Polish September Campaign - as well as the reasons why the term used in Misplaced Pages, though more popular, is also technically wrong. Halibu tt 15:34, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Court-martial

External link N1 Original Katyn Ordner

Original of Katyn order Nikkolai

What? You have linked to your own userpage... and you left me strange private messages. Please learn how to sign your posts. Better - see Misplaced Pages:Tutorial first, then try editing again.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 17:10, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

As one can read from this original order, it was not only Polish officers that were executed, but also policemen, government workers etc. Hence, using Polish "citizens" in the lead is more correct than Polish "officers", which is too restrictive. Balcer 16:23, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Fact and Reference Check

Many things would become much more clear and less revert-prone if we would properly reference them. Help me verify our current external links and change them into proper references!--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 17:10, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

I am having trouble veryfing certain facts. Please help me find the reference - or I will remove it before the FAC voting:

Contrary to a widespread misconception, only about 8,000 out of about 15,000 POWs in these camps were officers - or anything that gives a clear statement on how many of the massacred Poles were civilians, not military POWs

Altogether, during the massacre the NKVD murdered 14 Polish generals and the following list. The only source I can find in unsourced Polish Misplaced Pages article.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 17:13, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

I added the refs to the number of generals. Any "Katyn list" would do as the missing generals were known even before the Soviets admitted their complicity and passed the document. And, in fact, any book on the topic mentions the 13 generals killed (though not all mention that 14th was promoted posthumously). Halibu tt 02:11, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Just a note: in Polish military tradition the term "general" is quite broad and might mean anyone of general's grade, including admirals and air generals. Hence Xawery Czernicki is counted in, and not separately. On a second note: is it worth noticing that there was one woman among the murdered? Halibu tt 02:14, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

I guess it makes an interestign trivia. Do we know who she was?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 05:10, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Yup, she was Janina Lewandowska, daughter of Gen. Józef Dowbor-Muśnicki. She was a civilian pilot, but joined the army in 1939 for volunteer auxiliary service. Evacuated, she was captured by the NKVD and, for unknown reason, kept with the rest of the men in Kozielsk, and then Ostashkov. Her skull was discovered by the Germans, but it was not until recently that she was identified. BTW, about the time she was killed by the Russians at Katyn, her little sister was also murdered - by the Germans in Palmiry. Anyway, you can read up more on Lewandowska here: , , , or . Halibu tt 06:05, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

I am done with reference check. I think that the least section needs still some expantion, more references and perhaps some NPOVing. Anybody would like to take their stab at this?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 06:31, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Near Smolensk, the Poles, with their hands tied behind their backs, were led to the graves and shot in the neck.

Why "near Smolensk" if we know the place perfectly? Xx236 11:58, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

I guess it's just a literary construction, feel free to fix it if you think it's confusing.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 21:06, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Weasel sentence

I am removing this sentence: Some historians believe the massacre was part of wider action coordinated by Nazi Germany and Soviet Union, or that Germans at least knew of the Katyn beforehand. - it is an obvious Weasel word. Some historians'? Please provide names and references. I am going to rewrite this para on the sources provided for it be more NPOV.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 21:06, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Ballistic Evidence

Is there any ballistic evidence? By this I mean is there any evidence on the type and caliber of the bullets used?

Almost all bullets were of caliber 7,65 mm with a stamp 'Geco 7,65 D' at the bottom. Geco is the abbreviation of 'Gustav Genschow & Co.'. This ammnunition factory was located in Durlach, close to Karlsruhe in Germany. The ammunition used in Katyn was procuced between 1922-1931. Because of restrictions of the Versailles Treaty it was difficult to sell ammunition in Germany. The company Genschow therefore exported ammuntion to countries like Poland, the Baltic states, also to the Sovietunion. (source: 'Amtliches Material zum Massenmord von Katyn', 1943 Berlin)

Tnx. Feel free to incorporate this into the article.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 22:51, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

I am an newcomer to this article and I don't know where to fit it. If you consider it worth mentioning in the article, feel free to do it. If you need more details about it, let me know please. I am in possession of the report 'Amtliches Material zum Massenmord in Katyn' (translation roughly: 'official material of the massmurder in Katyn')published in 1943.

Spelling

Why do you write Katyń (massacre) in the headline instead of Katyn? Katyn is a place in Russia. The original spelling is катынь. The English transcription would be Katyn. There is no ń in the English alphabet. I realize this is a minor thing but one should be as accurate as possible.

Katyń is a Polish spelling, as the massacre is much more known in Poland then in Russia (or in English speaking countries).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 22:51, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

I was aware of the fact that it is the Polish spelling. I am also aware that practically every school child in Poland knows about Katyn. But this is not the issue. The issue is strictly a linguistic one. The Polish transpription of Kатынь into Katyń is absolutely perfect, because it expresses the soft sign 'ь' at the end of the Russian word. The Polish transcription is more appropriate than the English one. However, this article is an English one. The English language/alphabet simply does not provide any soft sign. Therefore it has to be omitted in the English transcription. It is only confusing for an English reader to be confronted with an 'ń'. You would not accept any English transcriptions in an Polish Misplaced Pages article either. For example 'Москва' to 'Moscow', instead of 'Moskwa', or 'Сибирь' to 'Siberia' instead of 'Syberia'. So why do you impose the Polish transcription on an English article? Once again it is a minor point, but the Wikipedians strive to be as accurate as possible in their articles, and this transcription is simply not correct. So, do or don't do what you please, but be aware it is a mistake. By the way my mother tongue is not English (nor Russian, nor Polish). So, you cannot claim that my point of view is a nationalistic one.

If the Russian spelling for the place name, as given above, is correct, then the above comment is very much à propos and the name should be spelled either "Katyn," as it is in English, or "Katyn'," as it would commonly be transliterated from Russian into English. logologist|Talk 06:52, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

8,000 were civilians? source please

As I still cannot find any source to verify this fact, I am moving the relevant quote here, so the article (now a FAC) can have no 'sourced needed' templates and such. Note that the fact that there were civilians at Katyn is not doubted (reference), but the 8,000 number needs a specific source.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 16:17, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Contrary to a widespread misconception, only about 8,000 out of about 15,000 POWs in these camps were officers as the prisoners included a number of Polish intelligentsia in addition to policemen, reservists, and active military officers

As far as I remember the break down onto categories is available in W cieniu Katynia by Swianiewicz. Halibu tt 11:59, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Category:Katyń victims

What do you think of creating such a category, pararell (in spirit, if not size) to Category:Holocaust victims? 15,000+ victims should be enough for a notable category.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 17:31, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Good idea. But while we're at it, how about getting Poles out of "Category:Holocaust victims"? To the broad public, the term "Holocaust," with its Biblical referents (in Polish, it's "całopalenie"), attaches exclusively to the Nazis' Jewish victims. logologist|Talk 07:10, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

And consistently delete all mentions of Poles and Poland from the article on Holocaust? Seems rather a bad idea to me. Halibu tt 11:39, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Were all the Nazis' Polish victims Jewish? There should be a separate category for the Germans' non-Jewish victims. I repeat: whatever the merits of the question, to much of the world, the Holocaust was a purely Jewish concern. logologist|Talk 15:26, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Indeed the gentile victims of the Holocaust were forgotten in the West for quite some time. Which does not mean that we should repeat the same mistake here. Halibu tt 15:57, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

historiography

To do.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 00:59, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

See the article. I am not a Katyń specialist, but this is the kind of thing you need in a historical article for it to be featured.Fifelfoo 23:08, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

De-Irvining

As Irving is not considered too credible, I think we should try to verify the information tagged as coming from his work:--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 00:35, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Stalin assured him and Sikorski during a personal meeting that all the Poles had been freed, though some of them may have escaped (for example, to Manchuria).
Alternate sources: ,
Dr Joseph Goebbels, German Minister of Propaganda, saw this discovery as an excellent tool to drive a wedge between Poland, Western Allies, and the Soviet Union. On April 13]Berlin Radio announced this find to the world: "A great pit was found, 28 metres long and 16 metres wide, filled with twelve layers of bodies of Polish officers, numbering about 3,000. They were clad in full military uniform, and while many of them had their hands tied, all of them had wounds in the back of their necks caused by pistol shots. The identification of the bodies will not cause great difficulties because of the mummifying property of the soil and because the Bolsheviks had left on the bodies the identity documents of the victims. A great pit was found, 28 metres long and 16 metres wide, filled with twelve layers of bodies of Polish officers, numbering about 3,000."
Not available on
The Allies were aware that the Nazis had found a mass grave as the discovery transpired, via radio transmissions intercepted and decrypted by Bletchley Park. Both German and an ensuing International Red Cross investigations of the Katyń corpses soon produced physical evidence that the massacre took place in early 1940, at a time when the area was still under Soviet control.
Need a non-Irving source for the evidence and conclusions.
Sikorski, whose uncompromising stance on that issue was beginning to create a rift between Western Allies and Soviets, died suddenly two months later. The cause of his death is still disputed.
Non-Irving sources that the cause of Władysław Sikorski is uncertain: , ,
Dr. Goebbels wrote in his diary: "Foreign commentators marvel at the extraordinary cleverness with which we have been able to convert the Katyn incident into a highly political question." The Germans had succeeded in discrediting the Soviet Government in the eyes of the world and briefly raised the spectre of a communist monster rampaging across the territories of Western civilisation; moreover they had forged the unwilling General Sikorski into a tool which could threaten to unravel the alliance between the Western Allies and Soviet Union.
Are Goebels diaries online so this quote can be verified?
See German propaganda archive, cited above
Ivan Maisky, who told Churchill that Poland's fate was sealed as "a country of 20 millions next door to a country of 200 millions."
Need a non-Irving source for this quote.
In private, British Prime Minister Winston Churchill agreed that the atrocity was likely carried out by the Soviets. According to the note taken by Count Raczyński, Churchill admitted on April 15 during a conversation with General Sikorski: "Alas, the German revelations are probably true. The Bolsheviks can be very cruel." However at the same time, on April 24, Churchill assured the Soviets: "We shall certainly oppose vigorously any 'investigation' by the International Red Cross or any other body in any territory under German authority. Such investigation would be a fraud and its conclusions reached by terrorism." Churchill's own post-war account of the Katyn affair is laconic. In his memoirs, he quotes the 1944 Soviet inquiry into the massacre, which predictably proved that the Germans had committed the crime, and adds, "belief seems an act of faith."
Need a non-Irving source for those quotes.

Irving is the exact opposite of "credible", I am afraid. See Richard Evans' expert review of Irving's "works" that helped convict him in 2000 at http://www.holocaustdenialontrial.org/evidence/evanscontent.asp . Clearly, a lot of people have done a lot of work on this article, but it definitely needs to be de-Irvingified before it can be considered "done". Ahasuerus 00:53, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

As a general English language secondary source of recent scholarship and impeccable credibility see

A short summary from my memory:

No.1 is widely known, I'm sure I read it in several books. Among them Bez ostatniego rozdziału by Anders and W cieniu Katynia by Swianiewicz
Historia pewnej mistyfikacji by Basak has it. Halibu tt 04:35, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Allied soldiers

We should mention that Poland was part of the Allies since 1939 and thus Soviets comitted one of the largest known massacres of Allied POWs by that murder. --Molobo 13:31, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Go away, troll. --Ghirla | talk 14:33, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

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