Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement

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Shuki

Complainer and complainee both topic-banned for 5 weeks.

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Shuki

User requesting enforcement: nableezy - 19:24, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested: Shuki (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated: Misplaced Pages:ARBPIA#Discretionary sanctions

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

Removes reliablly sourced material because it conflict's with the user's own personal view
again
again
again
again
again

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

Notified of the case

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction): Topic ban

Additional comments by editor filing complaint: Shuki has been filibustering any mention of the status of these settlements in international law. Originally Shuki has complained that the sources did not specifically say that a certain settlement is illegal. Since sources have been provided that specify for each of the settlements listed that they are illegal under international law Shuki has now changed tactics and insisted that the source "prove" that the specific settlement is illegal. The issue here is not the one or two reverts Shuki has made in each of the articles or the content being reverted. The issue is that Shuki has obstinately filibustered what reliable sources have reported and demanded proof beyond the requirements of WP:V and WP:RS. The arbitration case specifically says that editors should be editing within the policies of the website, including NPOV, RS, and V. Here, Shuki is violating all three; NPOV by refusing to allow a super-majority view to be represented in the article, RS by demanding that a RS is not sufficient "proof" on Misplaced Pages, V by repeatedly removing material cited to verifiable reliable sources.

Reply to Shuki's statement: The RFC had nothing to do with the legal status of the settlements or how that should be covered. And it is not an exceptional claim that Israeli settlements are illegal, and even if it were reliable sources were provided. The text is not discussing Israeli law but international law, so Israel's High Court's rulings on the legality under Israeli law is immaterial. None of this addresses the issue though, that you have repeatedly filibustered the inclusion of reliably sourced material for pure POV reasons. nableezy - 19:54, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Re Gatoclass: How much emphasis should be put on the material is certainly something that is strictly a content dispute, but Shuki has not been simply moving this information from the lead into the body, Shuki has been filibustering the content from appearing anywhere in the article. Is edit-warring the only thing that is actionable under ARBPIA? Is a systematic campaign to violate core policies of this website not actionable? Is everything that is not edit-warring a "content dispute"? nableezy - 04:12, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Gatoclass, each of those diffs is of Shuki completely removing the content on legality, claiming that because the source does not "prove" it is illegal it is not acceptable. The only reason there are not more diffs is because I have not made any other edits as I would rather not have edits to the 200 or so articles on Israeli settlements be reverted without cause. Shuki is demanding that a source provide "proof" that the settlement is illegal, that it must reference a specific court decision that says that specific settlement is illegal (see , where that argument is made). Shuki is completely disregarding what RS says and removing content that says "X is illegal" and the source that says "X is illegal". But if this simply a "content dispute" then there is not really much of a point of any of this. If a user can simply just say no and block what reliable sources say from appearing in an article then this whole system is ****ed. We have had lengthy topic bans for making too many reverts, but things like this just get brushed away as "content disputes", which lead to, guess what, more reverts. nableezy - 05:17, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

And Gatoclass, not only has Shuki rejected sources that say all Israeli settlements are illegal, he or she has further rejected sources that say specific settlements are illegal if that source does not provide "proof" that the settlement is illegal. Each of the edits listed above are removals of sources that say the specific settlement is illegal. nableezy - 05:37, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

I am not going to respond to many of the comments below. It is understandable that people come to the aid of what they perceive to be an ally. I'll just note that many of these same editors also came to the defense of the sock of a banned editor at a recent SPI, claiming that I was attempting to remove an opposing editor. That may well be the end result, but my purpose here is simple. Shuki's edits have violated a number of core policies of this website in contravention of ARBPIA. If there are editors that wish to show how that is not true they should make that case. Making this about me does not help anything. nableezy - 06:48, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Stifle: I understand it is easier to say "a pox on both your houses", but if you do so you are effectively saying that it is more important that there is an appearance of an equal application of the rules than it is to actually have an equal application of the rules. I have added well-sourced material about these settlements. The material I added is not "POV", it contains both the majority POV and Israel's by saying that they are illegal under international law though Israel disputes this. The material is both notable and verifiable, in fact every BBC story about a settlement contains that very same information. Shuki has removed notable, relevant, reliably sourced material from a number of articles and has done so by twisting policy such as RS and V or by giving no policy based reason for such removals. Regardless of Shuki's and Ynhockey's absurd comments about this material being "REDFLAG", there are countless reliable sources that flat out say that all Israeli settlements are illegal under international law; to record that in supposed "encyclopedia" articles cannot be seen as disruptive unless "disruption" is defined as anything the extreme right-wing of the Israeli political spectrum does not like. I understand that you all are not supposed to adjudicate "content disputes", but that does not mean you cannot actually look at the content. The material I added is backed by literally hundreds of reliable sources. Shuki removed that material on the most specious of reasons and has done so repeatedly. If people are free to simply remove whatever information they like without regard to how well sourced it is then this place truly is a complete waste of time and fails its goal of providing an educational resource. If you or any other admin is actually serious about creating an "encyclopedia" then you should not, no cannot, tolerate such behavior as repeatedly removing well-sourced content. Our "sins" are not all equal here. You have on hand a user adding well-sourced content. You have another user twisting policy and filibustering the inclusion of that well-sourced material. Shuki has in the past removed sources that say all Israeli settlements are illegal because they dont say that specific settlement is illegal. Now, the removals are of sources that say that the specific settlement is illegal because the source does not supposedly "prove" that and does not cite a specific court case saying that the specific settlement is illegal. That is plainly an absurd reason. If you want to treat both the person adding well-sourced material and the person removing it for absurd, ideological reasons then topic-ban us both. If, however, you want to ensure that our articles follow the policies of this website then I invite you to take a closer look at the circumstances. We are not guilty of the same sins here, and treating us as though we were may be easy but is without justification. nableezy - 14:39, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Re Stifle: I would like to know what exactly you say I am at fault of. I added sources that say specific Israeli settlements are illegal under international law. Almost 5 years ago Shuki reverted the same information asking that a source be provided. I provided that source. Shuki has since shifted the goalposts writing that the source must "prove" that Ariel is illegal under international law. No sane person can read WP:V or WP:RS and come to any such conclusion. What exactly did I do wrong here? nableezy - 18:54, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning Shuki

Statement by Shuki

Nableezy has never shown any attempt to collaborate and make reasonable efforts with other editors. Nableezy also forgot to mention that he is violating the closure of Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Israeli settlements. Since he 'lost' that RfC he started, he has wasted no time in opening a new front with his typical and documented battleground mentality. Nableezy is ~~one of~~ the most negative editor I have met on WP and has nothing good to say on articles. It is not 'fun' to edit with people who hold this attitude for long. Most people mellow out and learn to work with editors with opposing POVs, Nableezy simply cannot. I wish I could say he was pro-Palestinian, but even a superficial glance at his contributions show that he has nothing positive to say on Palestinian pages, and is merely a general SPA for including controversial negative material into Israeli articles. Until now, there was no 'BLP' for geographical places, and because of him, I think there should be one. Nableezy, blocked numerous times for problematic behavior, is himself in violation of AE with his insertion of negative boilerplate WP:REDFLAG material. Specifically, his latest non-consensus solo effort, is to find any mention of a locality that also says that it is illegal. No proof of any court action specifically declaring this and definitely in contrast to many court cases with the Israeli Supreme Court that has decided whether a place is illegal (part of Amona that was in fact torn down) or not (Revava won a libel case against Peace Now for making false claims of its 'illegality').

I have certainly not changed any tactics, thanks for pre-empting me here with what I had just accused Nableezy on another page, I have always demanded that sources specifically mention the locality and not just in passing. There is no such thing as 'super-majority' and the RfC Nableezy filed failed to approve that peculiar non-existent policy. --Shuki (talk) 19:51, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Reply to Nableezy, your RfC was not clear from the beginning, and I'll say that is the reason it failed, and failed to go anywhere constructive and why I (and most anyone not in your POV) was reluctant to take part for so long. --Shuki (talk) 20:36, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Reply to Stifle and others including Nableezy. Peculiar the accusations and follow-up accusations as well. One only needs to look at what both of us do simultaneously to see who collaborates with others and improve WP, and who is merely here to get blood to push his interests. On 18 July at 19:19, at the same time that Nableezy is putting the final touches on this repeat AE against me filed 5 minutes later (and sadly against himself as well - People who live in glass houses should not throw stones), I can be found collaborating with an 'opposing' editor here.

2nd reply, to Stifle, to 'topic-ban us both' Nableezy, and 'take one for the team' RomaC. I certainly do not believe in WP suicide, but we know that Nableezy is ready for martyrdom with many uncivil remarks made and threatened retirement when he was blocked and then surprisingly weirdly unblocked early at the beginning of the year. Frankly, I know that most 'Israeli cities, villages, towns, and more in the West Bank / Judea and Samaria Area' articles are not on the watchlists of many, if at all, and no one has been contributing to the topic of 'Israeli settlements' articles as much as me though I wish I had more help. I admit to the kneejerk reaction to what I saw Nableezy doing (evidently and his admitted flooding of articles with tendentious boilerplate one liners, contrary to Sandstein's closing RfC recommendation to deal with each issue on a case-by-case basis) was to quickly make those reverts, and hopefully merely temporarily freeze him on his admitted conquest to add it to all 200+ articles, so that perhaps the WP community could handle this much better with, hold on, collaboration and consensus. I was not going to follow him around on each page to put it in another section, given that some editors have an issue with that too - something that calm consensus should decide. I cannot recall too many instances in which we have seen a reasonable and rational Nableezy, wanting to accomplish anything except to get is POV included and he only bothers to behave if others are watching too. To his credit, and perhaps the exception that proves the rule, he did start the RfC. Unfortunately, he did not bother to pursue further dispute resolution given his failure with the RfC.

3rd, to Stifle, I do not see how a three month topic ban is proportional to merely reverting six articles once and with my long-term record which is centred primarily around creating, improving and maintaining Israeli geography articles. Since coming out of my single 1RR 'topic ban', I have managed to keep that 1RR behaviour intact except for a repeat SPA anon who was/is repeatedly just making a mess on three articles and has been reverted by others as well. On the other hand, comparing me with Nableezy who was;

topic banned for two months
blocked and topic 1RR and violates it leading to
2month topic ban and then
comes out of his most recent two WP:ARBPIA topic ban swinging to which I alerted the collaboration project and
a very SPECIAL MENTION making blanket reverts not unlike what he is accusing me of doing scroll to bottom to the edit comments sources call this place a Palestinian village (?!)

and his repeated use of AE for the hunt (of me), even though warned only a month ago from making non-actionable claims

by closing admin. Stifle, does that warning count for anything?

The proper thing to do would have been for Nableezy to make another RfC, or use other dispute resolution mechanism to engage editors in this issue, or perhaps get other advice from a mentor, or like-minded but mature editor or admin. I am not interested in 'taking anyone down with me' and frankly, I don't care to see Nableezy topic banned either (and I have tried unsuccessfully in the past to suggest he make positive contributions instead of only the negative edits that he characterizes him). Peace, here on WP and in Israel, will not be made by one side attacking the other but by each side wanting to progress and improve. If I could sanction Nableezy, it would be to A) get him to join Misplaced Pages:Palestine, and B1) improve above stub status 200 Palestinian locality articles (in contrast to the 200 Israeli articles he was beginning to edit), or alternatively B2) create 100 new 'pro'-Arab/Palestinian articles starting with the requested ones on WP:Palestine (not anti-Israel ones) or alternatively B3) work on getting GA status for five Arab/Palestinian articles of his choice (preferably ones that promote Arab issues, and do not include anything about 'international law', warfare and blood). Instead, until then, I see this as another frivolous attempt ato bully me and scare others as well. Many have come to support me here (surprisingly, thank you and I have not emailed or canvassed anyone either) and few have come to back Nableezy up, and there is no shortage of editors who are on 'his side'. It is a fact that the six accused edits mentioned are definitely not 'an attempt by me at filibustering', that while my accuser prefers otherwise, even if I have shown to accept inserting material my personal POV would rather not have included and I collaborate. --Shuki (talk) 00:48, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning Shuki

Comment by Malik Shabazz

Shuki, where does WP:V or WP:RS require that a source "not just in passing"? I seem to remember you made the opposite argument in the past. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 20:22, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

WP:REDFLAG --Shuki (talk) 20:32, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

The assertion that Israeli settlements are illegal under the Geneva conventions is an "exceptional claim"? Wow. Just wow.

I'm sorry, Shuki, but REDFLAG doesn't say what you think it says, and you don't get to set your own bar for which sources are acceptable and which aren't. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 18:41, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Comments by Mbz1

The issues raised in this request are issues related to the contested content of a few articles, and should be discussed on the articles talk pages as such. IMO the request should be closed as non actionable because Shuki has never violated any policy.--Mbz1 (talk) 21:14, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

On a side note I am surprised that Nableezy while filing the request about Shuki has no problems with IP, who inserts unsourced POV to the same articles with the edit summaries like this one for example: "an illegal settlement built on a stolen and occupied land is NOT a villeinage!!!! stop promoting lies violating wikipedias terms and the international law!!!!". --Mbz1 (talk) 22:00, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Response to Gatoclass question about Shuki editing against consensus. No, they did not, just the opposite. Please take a look at one of the articles in question talk page's discussion. Nableezy started it just few hours before he filed this AE, and there's no consensus there. As user:Noon put it:
Israeli settlement is the FIRST descriptor of this locality in this article. Click it and you'll get all arguments regarding settlements. No need to repeat it again and again. This is what links are for in wiki article, unless you wish to make a non neutral point.
I am not going to discuss the fairness and/or correctness of user:Noon's statement because it does not belong to AE. It is a content dispute, which cannot be resolved through arbitration enforcement. --Mbz1 (talk) 05:47, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

I really liked Shuki's proposal about sanctions for Nableezy. In general I believe that topic bans should be imposed rarely, if there's absolutely no other choice. I believe uninvolved admins should be more creative in the sanctioning of the involved editors. I actually liked how Tznkai topic banned Supreme_Deliciousness:

"This topic ban will run for 30 days from 00:31, 1 May 2010 (UTC) or until I see one of the following: A comprehensive and good faith proposal for a neutral standard on naming conventions, to be submitted for the consideration of Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration|The Israel Palestine Collaboration WikiProject; a comprehensive and good faith proposal for a neutral standard on how images are chosen for Levant cuisine, to be submitted for the consideration of Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration|The Israel Palestine Collaboration WikiProject; or a 3000 word essay on the meaning and importance of assuming good faith and avoiding battleground behavior."

So I concur with Shuki proposal about sanctions for Nableezy. It will help Nableezy to avoid being anti-Israeli single purpose account, and it is always the right thing to do. --Mbz1 (talk) 02:59, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

To the closing administrator. I would like to stress out three important points provided by me and others as a small summary:

Nableezy filed this AE at 19:24, 18 July 2010 less than 4 hours after he started the discussion on the issue at the article's talk page, and failed to get consensus. It is not the way to proceed. It was neither an emergency, nor BLP, nor something else extraordinary that could not have waited for a few days. This request created unwanted wiki drama, that could have been avoided by a simple discussion.

Every article in question, except one, is linked to Israeli settlement. Israeli settlement article provides all information about Israeli settlements therefore there's no need to repeat it in every article. As somebody has written ""International law" is a tricky thing that people claim to know, but there has been no binding court case on the matter, and considerable legal debate. The Israeli settlement article discusses the complex legal issues at length", and it is the place to learn about it. The one that is not linked to Israeli settlement is linked to Community settlement (Israel), and I am not sure how it got to Nableezy's request in a first place.

According to the above this AE against Shuki should be closed as non actionable. Thanks.--Mbz1 (talk) 01:04, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

To the closing uninvolved admins, I am not going to jump into your space as very much involved Gatoclass did, but I do agree with him: banned editors should know what they are banned for. Shuki has done absolutely nothing wrong at all. The issue of the request is a content dispute, which could not and should not be enforced by AE. Nableezy did not make nearly enough efforts to resolve the issue at the article talk pages before bringing the matter up to AE. He demonstrated a battleground behavior, and it is not first time he files non actionable, time-wasting AE. That's why IMO Nableezy should be given 2 weeks symbolic ban on AE just to make him give it another thought before he files another AE. Thanks.--Mbz1 (talk) 13:47, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Gatoclass

While I certainly agree that the status of all such settlements in international law should be outlined somewhere in the relevant articles, it doesn't strike me as imperative that this status be noted in the intro, unless perhaps the intro is long and/or the settlement a particular source of friction. IMO, it's sufficient that the status of such settlements be referred to somewhere in the body of the article. In any case, this looks to me like a run-of-the-mill content dispute, and I don't see anything actionable under ARBPIA. Gatoclass (talk) 03:57, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Re Nableezy's questions - firstly, your diffs do not demonstrate that Shuki has been "filibustering the content from appearing anywhere in the article". If he has done so, that may be an issue worth addressing, but I think you would need a pretty strong case, ie lots of diffs, to demonstrate that and you haven't provided any. In regards to your other question: Is a systematic campaign to violate core policies of this website not actionable? I would say it is, or should be, actionable, but again it would have to be clearly demonstrated. Perhaps, say, if you could demonstrate a persistent defying of consensus across multiple pages, that could be considered disruptive. But ultimately a lot will depend on the view of the closing admin. Gatoclass (talk) 05:02, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Having just read Shuki's comments above, I am obliged to amend my position. I consider Shuki's statement that "I have always demanded that sources specifically mention the locality and not just in passing" to be an absurdity, as it's clear that if a reliable source states that all Israeli settlements in area x are illegal, one does not need to find a source which specifically mentions that settlement y in area x is illegal. If Shuki has been reverting based on such specious reasoning, that could certainly in my view be considered disruptive and thereby sanctionable under ARBPIA. Gatoclass (talk) 05:34, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

an Israeli organization .... was forced to pay damages and issue a public apology to settlers after falsely claiming that a particular settlement was built illegally on private Palestinian land - Ynhockey.

Well, fine, but that is quite irrelevant to this discussion. Sources can always be wrong, we knew that. The issue here is that Shuki is demanding a higher burden of proof for the inclusion of material than is required by WP:RS. He is demanding that sources specifically state that a given settlement is "illegal", when logically it is only necessary to demonstrate that a settlement is in the occupied territories to demonstrate its illegality. A source could of course be wrong in making either statement, so that's an entirely separate issue. Gatoclass (talk) 11:15, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

People need to stop making arguments for their take on the content dispute since that it not the scope of these requests - Cptnono.

Cptnono, there is a difference between a content dispute and sheer illogic. If someone holds a position that is plainly logically fallacious, and maintains that position even after having its erroneous nature pointed out to him, that has ceased to be a mere content dispute and become disruption. In this case, Shuki's position is rendered untenable by simple logical deduction:

All Israeli settlements in the occupied territories are illegal under international law.
This is an Israeli settlement in the occupied territories.
This is an illegal Israeli settlement.

There can therefore be no justification for Shuki's claim that Nableezy is required to produce sources that state a particular settlement is illegal. Nableezy only needs to produce a source which states that the settlement is in the occupied territories, because its illegality is a function of its location. If Shuki is prepared to acknowledge his error and agree to stop reverting on those grounds, perhaps there is no need for further action here. If however he is going to insist on maintaining his current view, I think that would be grounds for imposing further sanctions. Gatoclass (talk) 10:29, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Gatoclass is in violation of WP:GAME. Nableezy's adding of "illegal under international law " to the first -- I repeat: 1st -- paragraph of dozens of articles is exceptionally poor form after the joint RFC to promote this action failed. Gatoclass, Nableezy, Tiamut, and co. support of of this collab RFC did not sway the general public and Gatoclass's comments here are an ARBPIA violation of WP:GAME. i.e. to promote a sanction on Shuki after failing to get the results he was looking for through the proper course of action (RFC, dispute resolution) is a bad faith attempt to use the policies of wikipedia. Thank you. Jaakobou 03:26, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

"the general public", that's a good one! RomaC 03:33, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Ynhockey

While it pains me to say so, I have to agree with Shuki's assessment of Nableezy's general editing practices (although I disapprove of the specific terms used). It is unfortunate that Nableezy has chosen not to make constructive contributions to articles about settlements, but rather to go out of his way to "prove" that they are illegal. Even if, theoretically, ample sources could be provided and the significance of this statement could be proven, it still seems like a WP:BATTLE action to just go around articles about settlements saying they're illegal and adding no other content. This WP:AE request seems like yet another piece of WikiDrama to get an editor from "the other side" banned and thus have a certain version of the article say. If Nableezy continues to edit settlement-related articles, I sincerely hope that he invests more resources into improving sections about the history, geography and culture of settlements. —Ynhockey 04:40, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Just a relevant note, although this might not belong at WP:AE, but I thought it more appropriate to post it here than on user talk: As Shuki noted, an Israeli organization (Peace Now) was forced to pay damages and issue a public apology to settlers after falsely claiming that a particular settlement was built illegally on private Palestinian land (Hebrew article). What I am saying is that this is an extremely sensitive issue that is essentially similar to WP:BLP (which was created, in part, to avoid legal action against WMF), and it is important that each settlement is examined on a case-by-case basis. —Ynhockey 16:05, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Note to Stifle: I will respect any decision you make, but ask you to look at what each editor has done for the articles in question. In fact, as far as I can tell, Shuki has singlehandedly written most of the content in settlement-related articles. As I noted above, Nableezy has unfortunately failed to make any contributions to these articles. I ask that this is taken into account in any decision you make. —Ynhockey 18:38, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

What do you mean? nableezy was contributing to the settlement articles by adding the entire worldview with reliable sources. And the sourced worldview was removed by Shuki. Who is the one that has been trying to contribute to the articles here? and who is the one who has been tampering the articles here? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 09:14, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Cptnono

I hope that any request for enforcement against Nableezy will not look like reprisal since it has been coming for some time now.

The RfC closure set a very good chance to do some case by case basis with a firm reminder not to start any shenanigans. This should have been handled better and Shuki should not be shouldering the brunt of the blame.Cptnono (talk) 06:04, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

I think Gilsa makes a point that the wording and the sources have been questioned. Editors continuing to stick them in on a mad spree after a contentious RfC is not the way to go about doing things. Shuki was reverting what he saw as contentious edits inserted on multiple articles and now he gets an AE for being a POV pusher essentially. Bad form and Shuki shouldn;t have even been brought here. A little bit of talk page would be better but unfortunately that hardly stops the wackiness going on in this topic area.Cptnono (talk) 06:40, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

People need to stop making arguments for their take on the content dispute since that it not the scope of these requests.Cptnono (talk) 06:55, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Stop discussing content here, Gatoclass. Not everyone agrees with it so it is therefore contentious. Methods used to include or removed that contentious material are the concern. Maybe editors feeling so strongly that their edits can be defended with assertions such as shear logic is the problem since their are channels in place for content disputes which should not be ignored. Unless of course the purpose is to set a precedent (Shuki was wrong therefore everything must be mentioned as "occupied"). Basically what I am saying is that Shuki is allowed to revert bold edits. Nableezy is free to seek other channels to include it if that is done. There is not an overuse of the revert function and Shuki is not alone so why make such sweeping changes when there is an ongoing dispute? And I agree that AE needs to get a little tougher on editors who have repeatedly been blocked or received sanctions if it is shown that they have crossed the line. Cptnono (talk) 04:33, 22 July 2010 (UTC)\

Why Nbaleezy is being scrutinized has come up here. I really don't think it matters if Gatoclass wants to switch into admin mode and comment down there so fine I will provide some diffs. Nableezy and I were discussing this on my talk page and he also asked for some evidence of what I thought was his wrongdoing. My thoughts on it are that he needlessly reverts and does not participate with a collaborative mindset. If Shuki is POV pushing than Nableezy surely is but if both of them stop reverting and finding other methods I don't care that much about what they do.

His response was typical for him with deflection and other assertions such as: It was propaganda (kind of a dirty word here), It was sourced (disregarding that the sources have been questioned and that we should not be mirroring the tone of biased sources), reverts were to a troll (even though he has edited in tandem with an IP that others have accused of being a troll), and so on. I'm not going to list diffs of accusations of edit warring not related to the subtopic this AE gets into, civility, gaming, outing , and other potential problems since Stifle might have a good suggestion and overdoing the diffs would just lead to needless mudslinging. What is an obvious problem is that Nableezy came off of a restriction and within a day started rocking the boat in issues dealing with the legality of places, occupation, and settlers. Regardless of his feelings, he needs to stop hitting the revert button.

I think a full-on topic ban would be fine but I am obviously frustrated with him and Stifle's idea might work. I also think a 1rr would be good. For Shuki, if he is reverting as much as Nableezy than he should suffer similar consequences. I don't buy any argument that says the listed reverts show him as POV pusher but I am admittedly biased.

Diffs and thoughts and stuff

*Ateret (195.50.69.30 was already active here making contentious edits about the same thing): Bold edit Revert of Shuki's partial revert Talk page used after reverting and discussion follows about the source.

Ariel (city): Bold edit even though there is already questions about the use of the source in another article Revert of Shuki's partial revert Talk page not used.
Ma'ale Adumim: Again and again. Talk page again used after the reverting in regards to where the info was placed. It does not appear that some involved realized there was even a somewhat related discussion ongoing at another article. The last message on this talk page regarding the term "occupied" was a week before the edit was made.
Ariel: again and again
Halamish (this one is interesting because there was already an ongoing edit war between Shuki and 195.50.69.30 over the same thing): same edit Revert of tagging for failed verification (me this time)revert of my removal since the tag was removed partial revert of another editor (albeit it guideline based) Talk page discussion started by me. Nableezy jumped on after reverting and failed to mention that the same source and edit was already being questioned elsewhere.
Katzrin (this one involved several editors including Shuki): an edit regarding settlement revert of another editor revert (guideline based but a tag or providing a source himself might have worked instead) Talk page at least used even though it did not address that this sort of problem was ongoing.
Hebron (more reversions based on "settlement" and the map. All to an IP using pop-ups without a note in the edit summary, their page, or the article's talk page. This should have been easy enough to address once to get it fixed.)
Mount Hermon (More with the settlement, occupied, where it is issue. Supreme Deliciousness pops up in this one like he does in a handful of Nableezy's edit wars. Jiujitsuguy was also active.):revert of an editor revert of another editor an IP one of the previous editors
Neve Ativ (Nableezy edit warring over a line with another editor while talk page discussion was ongoing. Supreme Deliciousness stepped in and Nableezy eventually reported the other editor for edit warring. Agree with Nableezy that it could be included but the edit warring was not needed):revert
Nableezy, Supreme Deliciousness, and Shuki reverted eachother at Ortal, Golan Heights after the RfC was closed They were using talk so why didn't they just chill out and work towards finding a solution?
Tourism in Israel saw a slow edit war of reverts, restorations, and partials, IMO, based on legalities and where the places are. The first was jumping into an already ongoing revertfest with political disclaimers less than a day after coming off of a two month arbitration enforced article topic ban in the topic area.
Reverting at Golan Heights over the Arabic translation coming first (presumably since it is Syrian and not Israeli under intl law). It sounds like there was a discussion so that is good but this is just sill and if it is being edit warred over people need to put in a hidden comment or link to the discussion in the edit summary. I slack of on making edit sumaries in gneral especially when it is IPs but I think this shows Nableezy's mentallity. (sporadic reverts of this stretch back for quite a bit)

Reply to Cptnonos "Diffs and thoughts and stuff" I have edited 1080 articles. I am interested in the Arab-Israeli conflict and so are many others, so those who are interested in the same topic will of course run into me on several articles. Now to Cptnonos accusations where he mentions my name:

I have edited the Mount Hermon article for a very long time, my first edit there was over a year ago. So I did not just "pop up" there just because nableezy edited it. And my edit there on the 7th July was not the same as Nableezys, they were two seperate edits. At the Golan Heights article there has been talks many times and at Mount Hermon talkpage we have had many talks about the issue, and I have participated at the talkpage discussions at both articles every single time. All reliable neutral sources show clearly that we can not say that the area is in Israel since that is against the entire international view (Npov). Also notice that at the Mount Hermon talkpage pushing for the Israeli pov is at least one topic banned sockpuppeteer Amoruso and his sock the Sipio account.

Concerning the Ortal, Golan Heights article, nableezy actually reverted himself there, back to Shukis verion, so there was no rv there from him. The problem there was that Shuki had changed position of the settlement and kibbutz and he had not gotten any consensus for the rearrangement yet he continued to change the position from the status quo. So why did he do this? I asked him repeatedly at the talkpage to show me at what time the "kibbutz" was before "settlement" but still he hasn't shown this til this day. And I did one rv at the 24th June and then almost one month later on 18th July did another rv and the only reason for the second rv was because he still after all this time hadn't shown me at the talkpage at what time exactly when both terms was in the article was the "kibbutz" before "settlement". Just like he right now hasn't answered to my latest post there. Also my last revert there at the time 18.32 18th July was by accident, I unintentionally pressed the rollback button, but I reverted back to his version and explained this to him:

Concerning Neve Ativ, I did not just "stepp in" there, as I will explain below that I am familiar with Jubata ez Zeit and Neve Ativ. A newly registered account Martinakohl came and removed that Neve ativ was built on top of Jubata ez Zeit, he claimed that Marsad was an unreliable source so Nableezy added a source from cambridge university but the newly registered account continued to remove this clearly reliable source several times and also edit warred with a user named Jeff G. and several IPs to remove the sourced information. And I knew in advance that Neve Ativ was built on Jubata ez Zeit because it was me who started the Jubata ez Zeit article, and I had edited the Neve Ativ article before adding this info:, and I also had another source to confirm the same thing from the Jubata article, so I added the other source and I explained at the talkpage and just because the title of the book source I added was called "Settlements and cult sites on Mount Hermon, Israel: Ituraean culture in the Hellenistic and Roman periods" , he removed it saying: "Jubata ez-Zeit is not a Roman village" which is complete nonsense since it has nothing to do with anything, the text I added to the article did not say it was Roman and the source in the book did not say it was Roman. He was blocked and then he created two sockpuppets to continue to forcibly removed the sourced content: . So in this "conflict" I made one rv and in that rv added another source and I participated at the talkpage. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 11:19, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Sorry if there was confusion. I wasn't trying to single you out here and I did not intend for it to an argument against your editing. I think you still make some mistakes. So does Jujitsuguy on the other side. Both of you have mirrored some bad habits seen in more experienced users like Nableezy but neither of you are under any scrutiny here.Cptnono (talk) 23:45, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Gilisa

Yes, the removed material was sourced. However, the wording was far from being neutral. The international status of Ma'ale Adumim is far more complicated than these sources show. The USA discussed with Israel many times the possibility of acknowledging such cities as regular part of Israel, in fact, it's also discussed between Israel and the palestinian representatives.

Also, these sources are all from Guardian and BBC. While they are usually RS, they are not considered impartial in their attitude through Israel. Infact, once Israel submitted official complaint against the BBC for being biased against it. The BBC then was forced to establish a committee that scrutinized these complaints. They never published the committee's conclusions. If you search the web for it, you will find many reliable sources heavily doubt the neutrality of British media sources like the BBC and the Guardian about the I-P conflict. When it comes to settlements thing then no one is argue that the BBC came up with MA being considered as a settlement by the UN. But it does not represent the entire issue and the wording by itself is harsh and not neutral still.--Gilisa (talk) 06:24, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Jiujitsuguy

Funny how Nableezy’s name keeps popping up on these boards, over and over again, either as a complainant or respondent. Where there’s smoke, there’s fire. It seems to me that he comes into this with soiled hands, edit warring while mastering the art of tag-teaming. Nableezy has adopted the Lord of the Flies approach to editing Misplaced Pages, reverting endlessly, baiting others into edit wars, tag-teaming and initiating harassing enforcement actions when things don’t quite go his way. The admin who rules on this case should also note that Nableezy has been indeffed (for threatening legal action, later lifted when withdrawn) has been blocked and subjected to lengthy topic bans. This is not exactly your model editor. As for the substantive issues involved, this is a content dispute in which Shuki has provided ample and cogent reasoning for his edits. If anyone should be sactioned, it is Nableezy who continuously uses these enforcement actions as tools of fear to silence his opposition.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 06:40, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Sean.hoyland

This is about policy compliance. We can't have people removing sourced information because the information isn't wearing a hijab or whatever the nothing-to-do-with-policy reason was here. Editors are obliged to edit according to policy. If they are upset by reliable sources saying that Israeli settlements are illegal and editors adding that information to articles there are plenty of other subjects for them to work on. What would happen I wonder if, rather than topic bans and such like, editors who find it difficult to comply with the discretionary sanctions were simply restricted from removing sourced material from articles ? They could add sourced material, reword existing material but not remove it altogether without calmly proceeding to the talk page and making their case. Sean.hoyland - talk 07:27, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Another alternative to the standard and clearly ineffective methods currently employed to deal with neutrality-challenged editors might be to require them to swop to 'the other side' of the conflict for a period. This is something I would really like to see happen personally. If an editor wants to blatantly ignore WP:COI, blatantly ignore the 'Editors counseled' section of the sanctions and consistently advocate for a side in a conflict as so many do then maybe there should be a cost to the editor. Perhaps they should have to advocate for 'the other side' too and the benefit should accrue to Misplaced Pages in the form of improved content and a general reduction in silliness. If an editor is genuinely here to build a better encyclopedia they shouldn't mind adding policy compliant material for a period even if it comes from sources they don't like such as..um..the BBC and even if it makes 'their side' look bad in their eyes. Sean.hoyland - talk 11:14, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Epeefleche

When we have highly disruptive editors (as in, those who have been blocked three times already this year) elevating their content disputes to non-actionable complaints, in apparent efforts to further their own POV, we have a wasteful time-suck. Perhaps it's time to consider ways to slow down our most disruptive editors; especially those who gravitate towards controversial areas such as the I-P area. Something that slows down those editors who have already been blocked 3 times in 2010, say, from taking any of various steps that lead to wastes of time for the community at large (ARE, AfD, etc., in the I-P area). In the U.S., felons are prohibited from voting in many elections. And at wikipedia, when articles are controversial, we limit editing to certain editors who we view as more trustworthy -- such as non-IPs. Extending those concepts here might prove beneficial.--Epeefleche (talk) 08:54, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Misarxist

Just over a week ago Shuki came of a 3 month 1r restriction (AE result) this doesn't appear to have sunk in as since then:

Halamish edit warring over several days on same point , & with no attempt to discuss on talk page.
Israeli settler violence unactioned 3r violation , & again no discussion.

He just doesn't seem to be here to edit collaboratively and probably requires a topic ban rather than another revert restriction. Misarxist (talk) 12:35, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

I am sorry to get into your space I will move my comment, if you'd like me to, but did you notice by any chance that in first three examples of so called edit warring you provided, Shuki reverted IP vandal, who was reverted by quite a few other editors, me including, as well. Thanks.--Mbz1 (talk) 13:36, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Re the admin comments about 'content dispute', obviously there is disagreement about the content, but the complaint is about straight-foward multiple reverts of sourced content without discussion. As I noted above (even with Mbz1's note, yes that's not as simple as I claimed, but the 3r example is undeniable) we are talking about an a know tendentious edit-warrior. There doesn't seem to be any real argument about Shuki being sanctioned again. But the complaints about Nableezey's record (the bulk of the responses here) are not relevant to that. And if Nableezey's conduct is at fault there's going to to need to be evidence cited, the fact that he's in a dispute with a tendentious nationalist editor isn't good enough in itself. Also while the underlying and widespread dispute does need to be dealt with, this simply isn't the right venue. Misarxist (talk) 12:44, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Comment by AMuseo.

Since the status of all land that has been conquered in a defensive war is a complex matter and the status of the West Bank finds no consensus among international legal experts, it is POV pushing to write the kind of statement that User:Nableezy is defending. I do not see nableezy questioning the status of the Western Sahara, or of Tibet, or criticizing the recent genocidal attack on the Tamil. He writes on behalf of a political cause dear to his heart. This does not make him a useful colleague. You can, after all, always find newspaper articles making flat assertions about just about anything. this is not scholarship. A simple statement that there is no consensus regarding the legal status of the West Bank would be better and could be well-supported. But I do not expect scholarship or balance from Nableezy. He is a highly contentions editor, the kind that drives moderate, informed editors from Misplaced Pages. Actually, I have come to believe that it is his goal to make editing so unpleasant that moderate people will go away, leaving the field open to him to use Misplaced Pages as a battleground to wage a Palestinian proxy war.AMuseo (talk) 20:33, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Fandriampahalamana

Although I wasn't involved in the articles mentioned above, I do feel it necessary to decry Nableezy's disruptive edit habits and intimidation of editors. On the Helen Thomas article while I explained every move I made, he vandalized my edits without any explanation, or with meaningless ones which is even worse. Once, it could have been explained away, but not a pattern of them. Then he had the gall to try to intimidate me by pretending that he is an administrator and admonishing me (for doing what is right) when he should have admonished himself for editing in bad faith. On one edit on July 13 (not pertaining to me) seeing that he can’t have it his way, he then made another controversial edit slanting the lead and explaining it with "all right, you want specifics add specifics, not just one part of the story." He seems to be using Misplaced Pages to tell the story the way he wants it to be told, as he actually admitted in a moment of truth and exasperation, of if you're getting it your way then I'll get it also my way. He sees everything as "your way" or "my way". I think he is unhelpful and a drain on controversial articles. Fandriampahalamana (talk) 21:22, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Peter Cohen

It's unfortunate that this request is following the usual pattern of people's views on Shuki's conduct being 100% corfrelated with their views on the IP dispute. I regret that I'm conforming to that pattern. Looking at the last edits listed by Nableezy, I see that theis effect is to remove any mention of the status of these settlements under international law. It has to be a notable effect about these places that they are considered illegal by major international institutions that pronounce on and enforce international law. The major institutions I have in mind are such organs ases of the UNSC, the high-contracting parties to the Geneva Conventions, the ICC, ICJ etc. When all those that pronounce on the matter say the settlements are illegal and none dissents, then the fact has to be mentioned in the articles. To remove any such mention is a clear violation of WP:NPOV.--Peter cohen (talk) 11:12, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Reply to Noon: I'm surprised by your reasoning. The quote from Nableezy indicates that there are a number of banned or permanently blocked editors who persist in creating sockpuppets in order to carry on distorting Misplaced Pages in favour of their political position. Persistent sockpuppeteers are damaging to Misplaced Pages. They increase the appearance of conflict between legitimate editors and anyone who uses SPI/CU to root out these users is to be praised. Accusations by the likes of Stellarkid who was a puppet of a user banned for participating in a drive by an external organisation to distort the content of Misplaced Pages have a wholly deleterious effect on the project. The fact that they have edit-warring and the reporting of legitimate users to the various admin boards as weapons is just evidence that thre is an organised effort to malign political opponents. One of those opponents should not be criticised for pointing this out. That certain editors leap to the defence of such sockpuppeteers also raises the question as to whether they are here to improve Misplaced Pages or whether they are themselves part of the effort to disrupt the project.--Peter cohen (talk) 16:21, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Brewcrewer

As this is apparently the place to hang out these days, I feel obliged to chime in lest people forget my existence. Unlike some other editors here who feel this is an content related dispute and should be closed as unactionable, I'm of the position that some action should take place as a result of this report.

The editor who filed the report insists that the first three words of any article on an Israeli entity beyond the '48 border should be "illegal settlement". This position has resulted in lots of edit warring. Numerous editors and a RFC later (linked above) have revealed a consensus that although the argument for illegality should clearly be included in an article, it should not be the first three words, per WP:NPOV.

Nevertheless, Nableezy still insists that "illegal" be in the opening sentence and any position taken to the contrary is "stupid". Not only is it "stupid", arguing that it does not belong in the first sentence is an ARBCOM violation.

Nableezy claims that Shuki wants to remove any mention of illegality of article, but that's blatantly false. Each article linked by Nableezy mentions the illegality issue, some even have an entire section discussing the illegality argument.

Thus, what we have here is a blatantly frivolous AE report filed by one of the most prolific AE filers, who should know better. Some sort of action should be taken so that this huge waste of time does not reoccur. Perhaps an AE ban? --brew crewer (yada, yada) 14:36, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Brewcrewer, sorry for placing this statement here, but that is simply not true. Nowhere did the RFC say that the words "illegal settlement" should be used as the first three words, legality was not even the topic of the RFC (which, oh by the way, certainly did not result in the consensus that you claim). And nowhere in the articles Ofra, Ariel (city), Amona, or Immanuel (town) is the legal status discussed. Kindly do not misrepresent what I have written or the RFC or the content of the articles. nableezy - 14:40, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

The first two links you brought as the basis for your claim have entire sections catered to the illegality issue. I don't plan on spending more time litigating and word playing. This has wasted enough time already.--brew crewer (yada, yada) 14:53, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

And the rest of them? You wrote "Each article linked by Nableezy mentions the illegality issue". Is that or is that not true? And you did not address the gross misrepresentation of the RFC. I guess that is "word playing". nableezy - 14:55, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Comment by RomaC

Concur with Peter Cohen above on all points. See many examples of Israel saying A and the rest of the world saying B, and some editors pushing A first, then a mention of B, then a rebuttal per A as "neutral." As for the admin suggestion below re: possible concurrent 3-month blocks, excuse my cynicism but I imagine Shuki might agree to "take one for the team" and be blocked if Nableezy were also taken out. There are few topic areas with nearly as much concerted partisan activity as Israel-Palestine. Yes, Nableezy may be biased, but he's also badly outnumbered which makes him sort of stick out in these content disputes. Respectfully, RomaC 14:47, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Noon

As I understand the AE regarding the I-P articles, one of its purposes was to facilitate a reasonable editing atmosphere in this contentious area. Contributors who exhibited "battleground" mentality and aggressive behaviour were banned or were blocked for a long period of time. In contrast to this purpose, the filing party of this request is engaged for a long time in trying to get the upper hand in content disputes by making considarable efforts to ban his opponents or block them indefinitely. Just one sample illustration of his "battleground mentality" may be found here, where he says: "There were three people who had pushed for my first topic ban. One of those was later blocked as a sock of NoCal100, the one who filed the complaint has now been blocked as a sock of Dajudem/Tundrabuggy, and the last is still taking aim at me." WP is not a battleground nor a venue for shooting ducks as done in Luna Parks. It looks as if the filing party spends most of his energy either to make small controversial edits to push his political views, while violating the fundamental WP:NPOV policy, or in targetting disruptively his opponents, espacially those who dare criticizing or reporting him, until they get out of his way. Content should adhere WP:NPOV not only in the facts and refs, but also in the tone of what is written, and how and where the facts are presented (ie. either in the lead, or as a link to the relevant article where all POVs are presented, or in a separate section in the same article where more views can be presented). accordingly, and for the huge waste of time dealing with this unwarranted request, it seems that the filing party fails to adhere to the purpose of building an encyclopedia, and the I-P AE penalty guidelines may apply to him. Noon (talk) 16:03, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I noticed this "and the last is still taking aim at me" too, and I agree it is yet another example of a battleground behavior by user:Nableezy--Mbz1 (talk) 16:22, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

@ Peter Cohen regarding this quote: Please listen to the music, imagine the moving targets, listen to the 'shootings', listen to the happy victory shouts, imagine the sniper tracing and targetting his 'enemies' above earth and in war tunnels, look at the sparkling eyes of this sniper when he realizes that some 'enemy troops' are still there hiding disguised somewhere or trying to sneak away... don't you hear real sounds of WAR here in Misplaced Pages? and this is just one example I've found in few minutes.

In my opinion this battlefield mentality is what the Arbitration Committee tried to stop, or, at least, significantely reduce, in their harsh sanctions in the I-P case and its subsequent AE mechanism.

There is no place for such a war mentality when trying to build a useful and accurate encyclopedia. Noon (talk) 19:59, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Supreme Deliciousness

Stifle, Nableezy has not done anything wrong here, while Shuki has been removing sourced information. Please look at the real issue instead of what other people say here at this enforcement. Every time there is a pro-Israeli editor up for enforcement, the same group of people show up in defense of that editor. Please look at the real issue here instead. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:07, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Stifle, please think about what you are saying, you are talking about a sanction on a user for adding the entire international view with a reliable source into an article. This is not a content dispute, when someone removes the entire worldview that is sourced with a reliable source - that's censorship, you can not impose some kind of "collective punishment" here. Also agree with Gatoclass, please explain your comments about this in more detail, "each side is at fault" is vague. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 13:45, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Additional comment by Jiujitsuguy

When evaluating sanctions, prior disciplinary history should be factored in. A look at Shuki’s record reveals two relatively short blocks, the last of which occurred more than a year ago This is an indication that Shuki is adhering to wiki policy and guidelines. By contrast, Nableezy’s block history is a mess, full of lengthy blocks and topic bans In fact, Nableezy has just come off a topic ban. In addition, Nableezy has previously been indefinitely blocked for threatening legal action against Misplaced Pages. It was lifted when he withdrew his threat but it shows that he has lost sight of reality and can not distinguish between the real and virtual worlds. It is clear from his prior sanction history that this is an editor who takes a WP:BATTLEGROUND approach to editing with a “take no prisoners” mentality. Clearly, under the totality of circumstances, the person who deserves to be permanently banned from the topic area is Nableezy.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 17:24, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

You forgot Shukis recent 3 month 1rvpd restriction --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 18:16, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

When you are a recidivist, like Nableezy, when your block log history reads like a lengthy rap sheet, like Nableezy’s when you find yourself on these boards on a daily basis, either as a respondent or complainant, like Nableezy, When you come into every I-A article with a WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality, like Nableezy, when an editor loses his grip on reality and threatens to sue Misplaced Pages, as Nableezy has, it’s time to ask; Is this a productive editor or a disruptive one? I leave it to the admins to decide.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 19:34, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Pantherskin

I have not encountered Shuki in the past, although it is clear from the diffs provided that he has a strong POV which is reflected in his edits. On the other side, he is prolific content contributor in the Israel content area, and most of his edits clearly improve the enyclopedia. Regarding Nableezy I have encountered him and again it is clear that his edits reflect his strong POV. That in itself is not necessarily a problem (although usually it is), but when coupled with incivility and combative language (, - some recent example, but from cases clearly a pattern), speculations and accusations about the ulterior motives of other editors (, ) it becomes a problem as it makes collaborative editing difficult to impossible. I am ignoring here the partisan editing of Nableezy and presumably Shuki - it would probably be beyond the scope and my take on it is that we probably need a fully fledged arbcom case to deal with the current detoriation in the Israel-Palestine topic area.

Nableezys comment "Go away" was to a blocked sockpuppet who had repeatedly disrupted the Golan heights article. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 10:08, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

No, it was directed against an IP address that was temporarily blocked and tried to start a discussion on the talk page (at last). I do not know where you get the sockpuppet part from, as there is no indication on the IPs talk page and no sockpuppet investigation. Pantherskin (talk) 10:20, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

The IP was blocked and then he used another way to edit the talkpage while his other IP was blocked, that's block evasion. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 10:37, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Tariqabjotu

This isn't about Shuki specifically, but the prevalence of arbitration enforcement requests and posts on AN3, ANI, and RFPP, especially as of late, regarding Israel-Palestine articles and articles that only mention something Israel-Palestine-related suggests that it's high time for another ARBCOM case. Either that, or admins need to be more willing to exact serious sanctions against editors that have been shown to be disruptive on these articles. We see the same editors being reported again and again (and the same editors doing the reporting again and again). This is one of today's most persistent and divisive conflicts, and while I appreciate people's willingness to give editors second, third, and fourth chances, the fact of the matter is, those people who edit disruptively in this arena will almost certainly always edit disruptively in this arena. This method of moderate sanctions and warnings that never get followed up on is not working. It's clear that a certain set of editors are testing the community's patience, and if they can't voluntarily move to an area in which they can more constructively edit, they should be forced to do so post-haste. -- tariqabjotu 12:28, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Comment - Agree with Tariqabjotu. However the administrators who regularly "manage" these areas are just as much at fault for the disruption as those who some consider "problematic" editors. The admins have become unwilling pawns of so called "battlefield warriors" and are therefore are unable to be non-bias, uninvolved parties themselves. Part of the solution, I feel, to defusing this situation (in addition to a new/clarified ARBCOM case) is to remove the administrators who regularly "enforce" actions on this board. I'm not suggesting revoking their admin status, only that since there is gross failure on their part to effectively administer IP-related disputes on ANI/AE (as evident by the level of REPEATED drama that regularly appears here), they should no longer be making binding decisions on editors whose action is brought to ANI/AE. --nsaum75 19:42, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't think it's entirely fair to blame the administrators here. The problem is not so much the administrators, as the AE system itself, which is still remarkably undefined and arbitrary. What this project needs more than anything in my view, is a simple, streamlined, transparent and predictable process for dealing with content disputes, which is what most disputation is ultimately about. We have got to stop throwing the content dispute dilemma into the too hard basket, and come up with a method of dealing with such disputes that doesn't compromise the Misplaced Pages commitment to NPOV. Gatoclass (talk) 03:46, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

The administrators who regularly handle the tag-team "game" that AE has become have ignored concerns stated by others about the process and summarily ignored or dismissed those who question their neutrality. They have allowed themselves to become pawns of those who use Misplaced Pages as a battleground and therefore have ceased to become "neutral" "uninvolved" parties. Therefore, they do indeed share in the blame. True, the current AE system has been greatly abused and become a tool with which to "do battle", but you cannot ignore the fact that this "three ring circus" has been allowed to carry on as long as it has -- and to the extent that it has. There are other remedies for abuse of wikipedia processes themselves, completely separate from IP Arbcom regulations, but no one seems to be interested in taking advantage of them. Instead, the destructive, abusive, and disruptive behavior is allowed to continue unabated, with editors gaming the system knowing full well that the worst that will happen is a slap on the wrist. --nsaum75 04:45, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Actually, my concern is that remedies are often too drastic rather than too lenient. But it can go either way. That's why I think this process is unduly arbitrary - it's usually left up to a single admin to decide upon a remedy, and depending on who he is or how he sees it, it might end up being anything from a 24-hour block to an indef ban. It's kind of like Russian roulette, you just never know what the outcome will be. We ought to be able to do better than that. Gatoclass (talk) 06:21, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

What if we had three admins decide a short term remedy - Maybe if an immediate block is warranted, do an emergency block for 12-24 hours, then have a group of admins decide what the "new" block should be. WhisperToMe (talk) 02:13, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Comment by ZScarpia

Unlike the Israeli legal position, which is irrelevant to it, the overwhelming international viewpoint, as embodied in such organisations as the UN, is very staightforward: the Israeli settlements in the occupied territories (including East Jerusalem) have been established in breach of international law (see the article on Israeli settlements, such documents as the text of UN Human Rights Council Resolution 7/18 and newspaper articles such as this one from Le Monde Diplomatique).

The Misplaced Pages rules require, as stated by Nableezy, that articles should present the all significant viewpoints and in a proportionate manner. Those on Israeli settlements and outposts, particularly major ones such as Ma'ale_Adumim and Ariel, should reflect the main global point of interest in them (as shown by the context in which they normally appear in sources), their status as illegal settlements in occupied territory and their role in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Trying to minimise or suppress the proportionate representation of that viewpoint amounts to point-of-view pushing. That is particularly true when reasons given for reverting edits, rather than being based on the Misplaced Pages rules, are, as they have been here, where a reason given for reverting was that the status of the settlements is uncertain because it has never been examined in a law court, is based in a particular viewpoint (from the international point of view, the settlements are illegal because that is the ruling of the bodies responsible for making those judgements).

The reliablitly of the BBC as a source has been mentioned above. The BBC is far from infallible, but its duty as a public service broadcaster to report neutrally means that its reports are subject to more than normal editorial oversight, which, in Misplaced Pages terms, is an indication of greater reliability. In 2006, the report produced at the end of an independent review commissioned by the corporation's board of governors was, unlike the internally-produced Balen report, published. The review suggested that the BBC's reporting, if anything, favoured the Israeli side. The review panel recommended that the BBC should make public an abbreviated version of the Israel and Palestine part of its journalists' guide to facts and terminology. In light of the conversation going on here, perhaps the guideline which says, "when writing a story about settlements we can aim, where relevant, to include context to the effect that 'all settlements in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, are considered illegal under international law, though Israel disputes this," which is very similar to the text that Nableezy was trying to introduce, might be seen as of interest.

← ZScarpia 21:28, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Did you comment on the RfC? That comment would have been better there. Anyway, so what you are saying is that the articles should start - Ariel is a city in the West Bank....established...with x population. Ariel is an Israeli settlement. That would satisfy what you suggested. --Shuki (talk) 22:29, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

That is a very revealing comment from Shuki. Even at the end of an enforcement case against him, in which he faces a possible topic ban, he still cannot bring himself to concede that the illegality of these settlements should be mentioned in the settlement articles. Shuki's lack of objectivity in this topic area could scarcely be made more apparent. Is it any wonder that other users become frustrated? Judging by the comments he has made at this AE case, it appears to me that it's time for Shuki to find some other topic area in which to contribute. Gatoclass (talk) 03:23, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Once again it is a content dispute, which should be decided individually in every situation at the articles talk pages, and it could not and should not be enforced by AE. It is not as black and white as some try to present it here. And no, it is not an enforcement case against Shuki, or at least it is as much against Shuki as it is against Nableezy. --Mbz1 (talk) 03:41, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Removing the entire worldview from articles that is sourced from reliable sources is not a content dispute, its embarking on an article in a harmful manner. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 09:15, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Nobody has demonstrated any wrongdoing by Nableezy in this case. Everything that's been said about Nableezy has been in the form of either vague generalities or dredging up of old disputes. I've seen no evidence of current misbehaviour, and I might add that I think his past record of alleged misbehaviour is also overblown. But that of course is another issue. Gatoclass (talk) 03:57, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

You obviously did not read my comments above in which I show specifically that Nableezy has done exactly what I have and much more, and given that his record is problematic, while mine is significantly better. There is nothing 'revealing' here, and as an admin you should know to discuss the AE here against me (and consequently Nableezy for bringing the spotlight on himself as well) and relative to other accepted/tolerated behaviour on WP, not content. --Shuki (talk) 08:21, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

You are correct that I did not previously read all your comments, per WP:TLDR. However, I have now read them per your request and stand by my previous comment. Moreover, on closer examination of your arguments I find the following:

Nableezy, blocked numerous times for problematic behavior, is himself in violation of AE with his insertion of negative boilerplate WP:REDFLAG material. Specifically, his latest non-consensus solo effort, is to find any mention of a locality that also says that it is illegal. No proof of any court action specifically declaring this and definitely in contrast to many court cases with the Israeli Supreme Court that has decided whether a place is illegal...

Here, you are characterizing the position of every major international legal body that the settlements are illegal as an exceptional claim per WP:REDFLAG. As Malik noted above, that is simply a preposterous claim. Not only that, but you are conflating Israeli law regarding the legality of settlements with international law, when they are entirely separate entities.

I don't want to speculate on what might motivate you to try and defend these indefensible positions, but the fact that you are continuing to try rings very loud alarm bells for me. I'm not in a position to judge your overall contribution to the project, but if this is typical of your approach to disputes, then I'm sorry to say that I think you are editing in the wrong topic area and need to look for an area that is less emotionally charged for you. Gatoclass (talk) 11:12, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

{Reply to the comment addressed to me by Shuki at 22:29 (UTC) on 21 July 2010} Ideally every involved editor should be co-operating to produce a less single-perspective article. If the lead section were to be written by me, it would start something like:

Ariel is a city in the West Bank which was founded as an Israeli settlement in 1978. It is now the mother settlement of 26 others in its vicinity. Together, these comprise the Ariel settlement bloc. Like all settlements in the West Bank, the international community views these as illegal, though Israel disputes this. After the one at Ma'ale Adumim, the Ariel settlement bloc is the largest Israeli settlement in the West Bank.

← ZScarpia 20:55, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

In regard to court judgements on the legality of the settlements, in its role as the principal judicial organ of the UN, the International Court of Justice stated the following in an advisory opinion given to the UN General Assembly on the 9 July 2004:

(page 9 of the summary) ... the Court considers that the Fourth Geneva Convention is applicable in the Palestinian territories which before the 1967 conflict lay to the east of the Green Line and which, during that conflict, were occupied by Israel ...

(page 10 of the summary) The information provided to the Court shows that, since 1977, Israel has conducted a policy and developed practices involving the establishment of settlements in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, contrary to the terms of Article 49, paragraph 6, of the Fourth Geneva Convention which provides: “The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.” The Security Council has taken the view that such policy and practices “have no legal validity” and constitute a “flagrant violation” of the Convention. The Court concludes that the Israeli settlements in the Occupied Palestinian Territory (including East Jerusalem) have been established in breach of international law.

← ZScarpia 02:52, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

The addition of statements noting the international view that particular settlements are illegal has a long history and is not, as far as I can see, a breach of established consensus. For example, in the article on Ariel, the first time such a statement was added in April 2005, a year after the article was created, by Doron. ← ZScarpia 15:20, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Hope&Act3!

it is the first time that I express my views in such a setting and being inexperienced I will probably be clumsy, please be indulgent. Some have already said things I agree with, no need to repeat them

I don't contribute much since I have been busy reading kilometers of Talk pages, exclusively in the I-P domain, (which is the most vicious battleground in wp despite every guide line,) trying to understand where the grip is and hoping to come up with a proposition to fix it. In my following comment I will adopt the 'they' and 'us' 'pro-I' and 'pro-P' style although it's not my vision of the I-P in real life it only represents the actual situation in wp:en
(1) the context
it's obvious to everyone I think that this endless bickering is a waste both of time and energy, - war is not appealing to most editors so they avoid taking part in it and in consequence don't contribute and that ends being wp's loss
(2) the actors
I won't address directly Nableezy's accusations, the root of the problem is beyond that.
Did you notice that Shuki is the main 'pro-Israel' contributor in these so called discussions? so much so that seeing all the 'pro-Israel' on this page is amazing since they (like myself) don't figure so much there. That's the way it is, only Shuki managed to bear with Nableezy's uncompromising atitude: Nableezy won't ever be ready to give up until he has achieved his goal: occupation is illegal must be mentioned every 3 words at least so that nobody can forget the unforgivable wrong doings of the Zionists... (don't read it literally, it's a caricature, just to make the point of how it feels discussing with him)

I admire Shuki's patience and fortitude for Nableezy is a relentless attacker, if Shuki did fail in anyway it is because he has been pushed unto that intended breaking point.

Nableezy, which might be a pleasant person, is a victim of his blind hatred of the State of Israel and Zionism, and through that is easily manipulated by the 'pro-Palestinian' party: he is the willing spearhead which will eventually take the fall and that did happen many times already as we know
(3) my personnal experience
as soon as I started to grasp the depth of the war -consider that Jiujitsuguy added 'Jewish' before Gamla and SD could not take it: no such word is to be written in any place on the Golan which is Syrian, was Syrian, and will be forever Syrian.... Gamla was Jewish and many RS exist , so when I understood that I refrained from editing and as I said above read and read and read .... and I specially decided not to engage Nableezy in any dispute -not even about the 'stupid things' attack- and let it go since I consider that to be a futile exercise in nothingness and due to lead to frustration and possibly even anger hence my admiration for Shuki.
once in a while I did edit but that brought upon me a tentative of intimidation by RomaC for 'vandalism and warring' (I was waiting a few days before filing a complaint)
out of that I got the message that 'they' want to have a free rein in the I-P editing -as said Ynhockey, AMuseo, Noon - and will try to discourage anybody 'pro-Israel' bold enough to dare come and play in 'their' courtyard -since I am a genuine account 'they' had no chance to oust me for sockpupettery which is 'their' regular feat so 'they' have to find different ways. one must not forget: it's WAR! ('their' opinion)
(4) solution?
- quit this war state of mind (as many advocated)
- blocking editors doesn't work, it's brutal and when they come back, well it's back to square 1 (remember the last return of Nableezy -sorry, I don't mean to target you but this the only example I can think of presently- )
- I too thought like Sean.hoyland of this technique used in conflict resolution groups when everyone has to bring up the other side's position but I figured that in a workshop setting the participants will stay in situ and collaborate, here those which don't want to will simply stay away for the time of the exercise and then... resume the same game

- I will plead not to ban either Shuki or Nableezy -it should be both, albeit not identically, or none- for (see Mbz1) a ban is cruel since it hurts and doesn't reform and in the long term it's bound to be counterproductive, just demand a monitored* cease fire in litigation and pov push and instead of the inumerable rfc et al a serious brainstorming with everyone interested to come up with a friendly solution (not just the administrators), as oppose to the big stick policy which has failed so far -that at least is clear to me-. Violence breeds violence and is to be avoided. I believe that with a lot of good will from everyone we can pull it up, it won't be easy but there is really no choice, carrying on the present way is a dead end. Guide lines are just that, they must not be blindly -and foolishly- enforced but with flexibility to meet both parties' wishes, unless we intend to institute once again the good old Pax Romana
- if you still think that only a firm hand will bring results and do want to break their back, I will suggest a very radical measure: a topic ban of ALL the editors and hopefully the new batch will be wiser (I very much doubt that though)

*should be very closely monitored in order to avoid the type of policy SD -which is not the subject here- adopted so that s.o. else would fight his battles (re Tznkai /topic ban)

:@RomaC: There are few topic areas with nearly as much concerted partisan activity as Israel-Palestine. uh! if it's how you see it that does explain a lot regarding the failure in reaching balance! that is a point to clarify then. Nableezy may be biased, but he's also badly outnumbered which makes him sort of stick out in these content disputes. I disagree, as I said Shuki was mainly left on his own to face endless days of lines of over and over the same words and arguments, are you saying that Nableezy believed he was alone holding the fort? I felt under attack myself I guess that I do not think that I only can save the world where he felt desperately obligated to fight to the end, was it so? that also is to be discussed . On another wiki I read an essay: 'Nobody is irremplacable' (fortunately) still each one of us is unique, ok?
I read again the comments and I saw a lot of a militantist attitude, I hope this is not the tone which will prevail
@Stifle: thanks for offering your help, Hope&Act3! (talk) 14:06, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Additional Comment by Pantherskin

One of the most destructive tactics to use on Misplaced Pages is the introduction of hoaxes into articles, and the use of made-up sources. At the Syria article both Nableezy and Supreme Deliciousness wanted to include the sentence "...to defend itself against Israeli shellings into Syria. According to the UN office in Jerusalem from 1955 until 1967 65 of the 69 border flare-ups between Syria and Israel were initiated by Israelis." in the article, cited to "Kamrava, Mehran, The Modern Middle East: A Political History since the First World War, University of California Press; 1 edition, p. 48". I checked the source in the library, neither on this page nor anywhere else in the book is there anything even remotely. You can even check it on Google Books, For me page 48 does not show, but it is clear that this chapters is about the pre-World War I era. You can also search for the numbers 67 and 69, the numbers 67 or 69 are not mentioned anywhere in the book. In short, these editors used a made-up source to bolster their claims and only after being caught red-handed did Supreme Deliciousness remove the fake source (see and ). I do not know how one can work collaboratively on this projekt or have trust in Misplaced Pages articles if we cannot trust our editors to be honest about their sources. This is even more important than civility and conforming to NPOV.

I did not "want to include the sentence" I reverted an edit that you made that removed something that I did want to include and you never once raised any concern about the other material. Perhaps I should have checked the first part of the edit but as you never once said one word about the material or the source I did not. Kindly do not misrepresent my actions here. nableezy - 21:10, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

We even discussed this section on the talk page and on the NPOV noticeboard, and I made it clear that the claims of Israel having shelled Syria are in conflict with what virtually all other sources say. I even quoted the first part, the part with the made-up source Misplaced Pages:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#Syria, so how you manage to be completely oblivious to this is beyond me. Either way I do not know how one can trust you as an editor when one has to double-check the sources you use. Pantherskin (talk) 21:23, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

You never once said one word about this source. If you had either removed just this and the material it was sourcing or if you raised the issue on the talk page I would have checked the source. But you did not, you just kept removed it with the Dayan quote. The reason I reverted that is because of the Dayan quote, of which there is no doubt of the authenticity or relevance. I dont particularly care what you think of me because, well, I dont think too highly of you. If you want to pretend that this was the issue you can, but anybody who looks at the discussion page can see that it was focused on the Dayan quote and you never once raised a question about this source. nableezy - 21:27, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

That sentence has been in the article since November 2008. It isn't unreasonable for Supreme Deliciousness and nableezy to assume good faith that the source supported the sentence. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 21:33, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

The comments here above from Pantherskin is clearly Assumption of Bad faith. That text was in the article and looked to me as well sourced, Panterskin removed it together with a well sourced Dayan quote and did not say anything about that the Jerusalem office text had a false source. As soon as it was pointed out to me that that specific part about the Jerusalem office had a false source, I removed it myself. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 21:46, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

The content was questioned several times by editors on the grounds that it contradicts what is known about this conflict from reliable source, including me (Talk:Syria#Border_Flare-Ups, /Talk:Syria#Invalid_Source_on_Dayan_Admitting_to_Israel_Provoking_Clashes). But you Supreme Deliciousness insisted that it is well-sourced. You never said that you do not know what the source actually says and mislead other editors about the content. The manner in which you removed the content after being caught red-hand furthermore suggests that all the time you knew that the source was fake. Pantherskin (talk) 10:17, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Actually it suggests that if you had once questioned that line on the basis of the source not supporting it SD would have checked it and removed it himself. nableezy - 16:57, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Comment by unomi

To me it seems clear that what we have before us is not a content dispute. The dispute may be grounded in the content, but the enforcement request is solidly regarding policy violations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Hkelkar#Removal_of_sourced_edits_made_in_a_neutral_narrative_is_disruptive

We have had a number of public discussions regarding how sources deal with the illegal settlements; at IPCOLL wikiproject, and across a multitude of talkpages. While there are sources which dispute the 'illegal settlement' moniker, the majority of quality sources support it. For a light primer see fx Daniel C. Kurtzer's article in Israel Journal of Foreign Affairs reprinted here:

Secretary of State Cyrus Vance made this clear in Congressional testimony before the House Committee on Foreign Affairs, March
21, 1980: US policy toward the establishment of Israeli settlements in the occupied territories is unequivocal and has long been a matter of public record. We consider it to be contrary to international law and an impediment to the successful conclusion of the Middle East peace process...Article 49, paragraph 6, of the Fourth Geneva Convention is, in my judgment, and has been in the judgment of each of the legal advisers of the State Department for many, many years, to be. . .that are illegal and that applies to the territories.
Vance's view was based on longstanding US policy. For example, in March 1976, Ambassador William Scranton told the United Nations Security Council: Substantial resettlement of the Israeli civilian population in occupied territories, including East Jerusalem, is illegal under the convention and cannot be considered to have prejudged the outcome of future negotiations between the parties on the locations of the borders of states by the Middle East. Indeed, the presence of these settlements is seen by my government as an obstacle to the success of the negotiations for a just and final peace between Israel and its neighbors.
Scranton's statement was based on the position expressed by Ambassador Charles Yost, who told the UN Security Council in July 1969:
Among the provisions of international law which bind Israel, as they would bind any occupier, are the provisions that the occupier has no right to make changes in laws or in administration other than those which are temporarily necessitated by his security interests, and that an occupier may not confiscate or destroy private property. The pattern of behavior authorized under the Geneva Convention and international law is clear: the occupier must maintain the occupied area as intact and unaltered as possible, without interfering with the customary life of the area, and any changes must be necessitated by the immediate needs of the occupation.

I think it is fair to say that these are not fringe views, and they are supported by ECJ and ICJ publications. In light of the supermajority of sources which support the wording that Shuki tendentiously edited to remove I find Nableezys enforcement request entirely reasonable. Unomi (talk) 22:33, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Clarify the limits

Can you please clarify the limits of this action? Does it basically include; 1) all locality articles in the region, 2) all geography articles (including parks or attractions), 3) talk pages as well?.

I made a couple of comments at Talk:List of national parks and nature reserves of Israel today. If they are included in the ban, I will refrain from continuing. --Shuki (talk) 22:15, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Since the purpose of this ban is to prevent edit-warring over whether or not a particular site is actually in Israel, surely all that is necessary is to restrict editing in this limited area. Even accepting the legitimacy of the block, I can't see a reason why Shuki or Nableezy should be prevented from making edits like this or this. RolandR (talk) 11:30, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Result concerning Shuki

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

I invite Shuki and Nableezy to show cause why they should not both be topic-banned for 3 months from articles about towns, cities, settlements, and other places or locations in Israel and neighbouring countries. And I request in advance that all comments relating to this request are added here, not at my talk page. Stifle (talk) 14:13, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

For clarification, "here" means "on this page". Stifle (talk) 18:07, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Just a note that I have read all the submissions and am analyzing the evidence. In a couple of days I intend to propose a final sanction and invite admin comment on same. I am reading the diffs and other details provided and will not be jumping to conclusions. Stifle (talk) 18:17, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

I have read and reviewed all the submissions and diffs and remain convinced that each side is at fault. There is a possibility that one party is more at fault than the other, but that is neither here nor there. I am still minded to impose a topic ban on both parties, although I will shorten the duration to the end of August. I invite comment from other uninvolved administrators here (i.e. this section) as to whether this appears appropriate. Stifle (talk) 11:06, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable. This is a content dispute which the people involved can't resolve in a collegial manner. I considered proposing limiting the scope to Israeli settlements, but that's probably too open to gaming and disagreement. Sandstein 11:28, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

You are entitled to your conclusion of course Stifle, but I think the parties to the dispute are also entitled to know what precisely they are being convicted of, and on what evidence. "I remain convinced that each side is at fault" is not exactly forthcoming. Gatoclass (talk) 11:47, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Edit warring, tendentious editing, and using reverts rather than discussion on a disputed article. Stifle (talk) 08:12, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

The individual articles link to Israeli settlement, which contains an overview of the legal situation. To what extent any of this needs to be summarized in the articles is obviously an editorial decision, however edit warring over whether there should be a mention in the lead is disruptive, and therefore can result in sanctions being imposed. I agree that Stifle's proposed sanctions are reasonable. PhilKnight (talk) 13:47, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Further to the above discussions and pursuant to Misplaced Pages:ARBPIA#Discretionary_sanctions, Shuki and Nableezy are both topic-banned until 23:59, 31 August 2010 (UTC) from articles about towns, cities, settlements, and other places or locations in Israel and neighbouring countries. Violation of the topic ban shall result in a block of appropriate duration and the topic-ban being reset to run for five weeks from the end of the block. Stifle (talk) 08:23, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

As things stand, (1) is included, (2) is included (as a park or attraction is a place), and (3) is not included. Disruption on talk pages will however be viewed dimly. Stifle (talk) 11:12, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Chumchum7

No violation of the 1RR/week restriction at London Victory Parade of 1946. EdJohnston (talk) 17:00, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Chumchum7 User requesting enforcement Varsovian (talk) 15:07, 2 August 2010 (UTC) User against whom enforcement is requested Chumchum7 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Sanction or remedy that this user violated DIGWUREN#Discretionary_sanctions (specifically Arbitration enforcement 1R/week article level restriction (WP:DIGWUREN)) Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it With this edit, made at 06:40, on 23 July 2010, Chumchum7 reverted this edit of mine. With an edit made at 07:10, on 23 July 2010 Chumchum7 reverted this edit of mine (which was partially altered by edits such as this one by Radeksz). All editors are under the following restriction with regard to this article: “You may not make more than one revert of this article within one week (i.e., any period of 168 hours). A revert is any action that reverses the actions of other editors, in whole or in part.” As shown about, Chumchum7 made two reverts in the space of 30 minutes. Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required) Not applicable Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction) Editor formally ~~warned~~ notified of DIGWUREN Discretionary sanctions Additional comments by editor filing complaint Apologies for the lateness in making this request, I've been away for the last week and limited to non-PC access to WP. Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested Discussion concerning Chumchum7 Statement by Chumchum7 I wasn't going to post here as per relevant guideline WP:DENY, but now see Varsovian has just been blocked by SarekOfVulcan for 55 hours so this AE should be put the wider context of our community. This AE filing is, as the administrator FPAS indicates, pretty bogus; my first response is to refer to WP:KETTLE as well as the never ending WP:GAME, WP:TE and WP:DE issues with the filing user. If I am not mistaken, there can be penalties for inappropriate AE filings, especially by editors subject to DIGWUREN deterrent such as this one This AE on me was filed after WP:1RR was applied to WP:London Victory Parade of 1946 "because of long-term multiparty edit warring". Looking at the diffs on that article prior to the imposition of the 1RR, I can see that one editor does add or revert the same block of text 4 times in a relatively short period of time. That behaviour remains actionable by any party at any time. Any interested party can see the diffs with their own eyes. This combative situation has now spilled over onto AE, with this AE on me. It was filed after discussion of the WP:1RR (that has been applied to WP:London Victory Parade of 1946 ) on Sandstein's talk page. EdJohnston contributed to that discussion. When making my edit at WP:London Victory Parade of 1946, I linked to that Sanstein/EdJohnston discussion here to indicate that my edits were specifically based on administrator guidance. Varsovian knew that perfectly well before making this filing. Prior to that, I had self-reverted an edit as a precaution, while the technicalities of the WP:1RR were being clarified. Varsovian also knew that perfectly well before making this filing. FPAS has made a neutral and diplomatic request for Varsovian to withdraw this AE, to which Varsovian responds by saying he wants clarity on the 1RR: "This request is basically a request for the restrictions to be clarified", he writes below. AE is not the appropriate forum to learn about WP policy, especially not at the expense of other editors' reputation. Instead, questions about policy can be raised with editors and admins. For what's it's worth, my feeling about this AE is that it is an attempt to damage my reputation rather than to make a constructive and collegial contribution to our project. This kind of thing will continue to rob us of our time, until admins take stronger preventative action. Thanks, -Chumchum7 (talk) 09:07, 4 August 2010 (UTC) Comments by others about the request concerning Chumchum7 Cannot see how either of these edits is a revert. Number one is a rewording (keeping one crucial element of V's previous edit, namely the grammatical information that the "not invited" didn't apply to all), and number two seems entirely unrelated to the previous edit that V claims was reverted. It also appears to be merely a re-ordering of text without adding or subtracting any, whereas V's edit was an addition, and I can't see any of his text affected by edit number two at all. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:11, 2 August 2010 (UTC) Plus, the two claimed reverts are in fact two successive edits, and hence would only count as a single revert anyway, even if they both were reverting something. Looks like quite a groundless complaint to me. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:14, 2 August 2010 (UTC) This request is basically a request for the restrictions to be clarified. Either the restriction is that an editor can make only one revert per week or it is that one editor can make only one restriction per week to any one element of the article. I have no doubt~~, given the endless stream of threats to report me here which come from various editors who would prefer to harass another editor away as happened in the glory days of EEML,~~ that if I were to make more than one revert per week, I would be reported here. So I want to have crystal clear guidance about what is and is not acceptable under the restrictions. Your comment above raises another issue: is changing the order of text a revert? Varsovian (talk) 09:08, 3 August 2010 (UTC) "one restriction per week"? You mean "revision", right? No, the rule is not about making so many revisions, it is only about reverts. A revert is an edit that "undoes, in whole or in part, a previous edit by another editor". For purposes of revert counting, edits made in direct succession always count as one, no matter whether they affect several issues or several previously disputed elements. Changing the order of elements is normally not a revert (unless, of course, that order of elements was previously already an object of contention.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:26, 3 August 2010 (UTC) Sorry about that mistake. I actually mean "revert" (as stated in the restriction quoted from above). Your interpretation of what is 'one' revert is interesting but I've learned to be cautious in my interpretation of what terms mean here (having been restricted because I didn't know that what is clearly called a "post" on a talk page is also an edit) and doubly so given that there are editors so keen to misrepresent my words (one has already called this request "harasment" and only temporarily withdrawn the accusation). The paragraph ordering has indeed been discussed before (see, for example, my talk page post of 11:42, 28 April 2010). Varsovian (talk) 09:52, 3 August 2010 (UTC) I agree with EdJohnston: this case should now be closed with no admin action. I brought this here because I have no doubt at all that if I had made two reverts inside seven days, I would have been brought here. Despite Chumchum7's accusations and insinuations, it was he who first spilled over things to here with a 2,000 word report described by an admin as "too long and argumentative and contains too few relevant diffs". Despite being told "We are not interested in opinions, we are interested in evidence." he then posted the whole text again here. But nevermind, let's all move on. Varsovian (talk) 15:26, 6 August 2010 (UTC) Result concerning Chumchum7 This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above. The question here is a simple one, for any editors who frequent the 3RR noticeboard. The two edits that Varsovian suggests break the 1RR/week rule are two consecutive edits made by Chumchum7, which are 30 minutes apart. There was no intervening edit by anyone else. The rules that apply here are: WP:1RR: A "one-revert rule" is analogous to the three-revert rule as described above, with the words "more than three reverts" replaced by "more than one revert". ('Above' refers to the rest of the WP:3RR policy). WP:3RR: A series of consecutive saved revert edits by one user with no intervening edits by another user counts as one revert. The two reverts by Chumchum7, listed by Varsovian as possibly breaking the 1RR/week rule, are consecutive. Hence those edits add up to at most one 'revert' for purposes of the 1RR. They do not break the rule. This case should be closed with no admin action. I'll wait a bit to see if there are any other comments. In general, it is quicker to present any violations of a 1RR rule at the 3RR noticeboard for action, since admins there are familiar with how this works. EdJohnston (talk) 03:41, 6 August 2010 (UTC) Per my above summary, I'm closing this enforcement request without giving any sanctions to Chumchum7. I do not see that he violated the 1RR/week restriction on the article. EdJohnston (talk) 16:55, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

No violation of the 1RR/week restriction at London Victory Parade of 1946. EdJohnston (talk) 17:00, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Chumchum7

User requesting enforcement: Varsovian (talk) 15:07, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested: Chumchum7 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated: DIGWUREN#Discretionary_sanctions (specifically Arbitration enforcement 1R/week article level restriction (WP:DIGWUREN))

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

With this edit, made at 06:40, on 23 July 2010, Chumchum7 reverted this edit of mine.
With an edit made at 07:10, on 23 July 2010 Chumchum7 reverted this edit of mine (which was partially altered by edits such as this one by Radeksz).

All editors are under the following restriction with regard to this article: “You may not make more than one revert of this article within one week (i.e., any period of 168 hours). A revert is any action that reverses the actions of other editors, in whole or in part.” As shown about, Chumchum7 made two reverts in the space of 30 minutes.

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

Not applicable

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction): Editor formally ~~warned~~ notified of DIGWUREN Discretionary sanctions

Additional comments by editor filing complaint: Apologies for the lateness in making this request, I've been away for the last week and limited to non-PC access to WP.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning Chumchum7

Statement by Chumchum7

I wasn't going to post here as per relevant guideline WP:DENY, but now see Varsovian has just been blocked by SarekOfVulcan for 55 hours so this AE should be put the wider context of our community.

This AE filing is, as the administrator FPAS indicates, pretty bogus; my first response is to refer to WP:KETTLE as well as the never ending WP:GAME, WP:TE and WP:DE issues with the filing user.

If I am not mistaken, there can be penalties for inappropriate AE filings, especially by editors subject to DIGWUREN deterrent such as this one

This AE on me was filed after WP:1RR was applied to WP:London Victory Parade of 1946 "because of long-term multiparty edit warring". Looking at the diffs on that article prior to the imposition of the 1RR, I can see that one editor does add or revert the same block of text 4 times in a relatively short period of time. That behaviour remains actionable by any party at any time. Any interested party can see the diffs with their own eyes.

This combative situation has now spilled over onto AE, with this AE on me. It was filed after discussion of the WP:1RR (that has been applied to WP:London Victory Parade of 1946 ) on Sandstein's talk page. EdJohnston contributed to that discussion. When making my edit at WP:London Victory Parade of 1946, I linked to that Sanstein/EdJohnston discussion here to indicate that my edits were specifically based on administrator guidance. Varsovian knew that perfectly well before making this filing. Prior to that, I had self-reverted an edit as a precaution, while the technicalities of the WP:1RR were being clarified. Varsovian also knew that perfectly well before making this filing.

FPAS has made a neutral and diplomatic request for Varsovian to withdraw this AE, to which Varsovian responds by saying he wants clarity on the 1RR: "This request is basically a request for the restrictions to be clarified", he writes below. AE is not the appropriate forum to learn about WP policy, especially not at the expense of other editors' reputation. Instead, questions about policy can be raised with editors and admins.

For what's it's worth, my feeling about this AE is that it is an attempt to damage my reputation rather than to make a constructive and collegial contribution to our project. This kind of thing will continue to rob us of our time, until admins take stronger preventative action.

Thanks, -Chumchum7 (talk) 09:07, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning Chumchum7

Cannot see how either of these edits is a revert. Number one is a rewording (keeping one crucial element of V's previous edit, namely the grammatical information that the "not invited" didn't apply to all), and number two seems entirely unrelated to the previous edit that V claims was reverted. It also appears to be merely a re-ordering of text without adding or subtracting any, whereas V's edit was an addition, and I can't see any of his text affected by edit number two at all. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:11, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Plus, the two claimed reverts are in fact two successive edits, and hence would only count as a single revert anyway, even if they both were reverting something. Looks like quite a groundless complaint to me. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:14, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

This request is basically a request for the restrictions to be clarified. Either the restriction is that an editor can make only one revert per week or it is that one editor can make only one restriction per week to any one element of the article. I have no doubt~~, given the endless stream of threats to report me here which come from various editors who would prefer to harass another editor away as happened in the glory days of EEML,~~ that if I were to make more than one revert per week, I would be reported here. So I want to have crystal clear guidance about what is and is not acceptable under the restrictions. Your comment above raises another issue: is changing the order of text a revert? Varsovian (talk) 09:08, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

"one restriction per week"? You mean "revision", right? No, the rule is not about making so many revisions, it is only about reverts. A revert is an edit that "undoes, in whole or in part, a previous edit by another editor". For purposes of revert counting, edits made in direct succession always count as one, no matter whether they affect several issues or several previously disputed elements. Changing the order of elements is normally not a revert (unless, of course, that order of elements was previously already an object of contention.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:26, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Sorry about that mistake. I actually mean "revert" (as stated in the restriction quoted from above). Your interpretation of what is 'one' revert is interesting but I've learned to be cautious in my interpretation of what terms mean here (having been restricted because I didn't know that what is clearly called a "post" on a talk page is also an edit) and doubly so given that there are editors so keen to misrepresent my words (one has already called this request "harasment" and only temporarily withdrawn the accusation). The paragraph ordering has indeed been discussed before (see, for example, my talk page post of 11:42, 28 April 2010). Varsovian (talk) 09:52, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree with EdJohnston: this case should now be closed with no admin action. I brought this here because I have no doubt at all that if I had made two reverts inside seven days, I would have been brought here. Despite Chumchum7's accusations and insinuations, it was he who first spilled over things to here with a 2,000 word report described by an admin as "too long and argumentative and contains too few relevant diffs". Despite being told "We are not interested in opinions, we are interested in evidence." he then posted the whole text again here. But nevermind, let's all move on. Varsovian (talk) 15:26, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Result concerning Chumchum7

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

The question here is a simple one, for any editors who frequent the 3RR noticeboard. The two edits that Varsovian suggests break the 1RR/week rule are two consecutive edits made by Chumchum7, which are 30 minutes apart. There was no intervening edit by anyone else. The rules that apply here are:

WP:1RR:

A "one-revert rule" is analogous to the three-revert rule as described above, with the words "more than three reverts" replaced by "more than one revert". ('Above' refers to the rest of the WP:3RR policy).

WP:3RR:

A series of consecutive saved revert edits by one user with no intervening edits by another user counts as one revert.

The two reverts by Chumchum7, listed by Varsovian as possibly breaking the 1RR/week rule, are consecutive. Hence those edits add up to at most one 'revert' for purposes of the 1RR. They do not break the rule. This case should be closed with no admin action. I'll wait a bit to see if there are any other comments. In general, it is quicker to present any violations of a 1RR rule at the 3RR noticeboard for action, since admins there are familiar with how this works. EdJohnston (talk) 03:41, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Per my above summary, I'm closing this enforcement request without giving any sanctions to Chumchum7. I do not see that he violated the 1RR/week restriction on the article. EdJohnston (talk) 16:55, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Brews ohare

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found in this 2010 ArbCom motion. According to that motion, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user: Brews ohare (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Brews ohare (talk) 14:36, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Sanction being appealed: <This action by Sandstein is appealed. Following upon a request by Blackburne, Sandstein concluded that I was in violation of “normal editorial process or any expected standards of behavior and decorum”. I have three objections: first, the duration of Sandstein's penalty extends beyond the expiration date of the restriction used to authorize that action; second, the violations of decorum etc. authorizing action did not occur; and third, the warning required by the authorizing restriction was not provided.>

Administrator imposing the sanction: Sandstein (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator: Sandstein notified with this diff; Blackburne (instigator of original request for action) notified with this diff.

Statement by Brews ohare

<The motion was this. It refers to expiration of topic ban and restrictions upon posting on physics pages and talk namepages. However, it remains that any uninvolved editor on their own discretion can decide that I have “repeatedly or seriously failed to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any normal editorial process or any expected standards of behavior and decorum”, and following a warning can “impose sanctions”. This situation prevails until 20 October, 2010.

This statement suggests conditions for reinstatement of the remainder of the initial ban, but does not authorize an individual editor to take action without a proper hearing.

This suggest that an individual uninvolved editor may impose sanctions “if, despite being warned, Brews ohare repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any normal editorial process or any expected standards of behavior and decorum.” Apparently it is this restriction that Sandstein has invoked.

I would raise the following points:

Although the restriction does not contain wording limiting the nature of sanctions to be imposed, I would take it as implied that any such sanctions are to run co-extensively with the authorizing motion; that is, until October 20, not indefinitely. Sandstein has exceeded the authority granted by this remedy. To extend a sanction beyond the time of the authorizing restriction itself requires a full arbcom hearing.
I was not, IMO, properly advised that such action was going to be taken. I believe that claims by Blackburne that I was warned that arbcom action would be taken are erroneous.
I immediately desisted when advised that arbcom was to become involved.
There was no warning of impending arbcom action; Blackburne's diffs that he interprets as warnings do not specifically indicate that unless I desist in talking about things on the Talk page, action would be initiated. In some cases, these remarks are simply bad tempered expressions of old wounds.
There was no violation of Talk page decorum or standards of behavior. What did happen is that extended discussion of a number of points took place, in an entirely civil manner. As a result some improvements of some topics on the article page were made by a variety of editors. Some issues remained open on the Talk page at the time of Sandstein's action. They did not involve Blackburne, who brought the request. It is probable that these matters would have been abandoned in due course due to lack of agreement, and there was no need to intervene with sanctions.
In view of the bad tempers and impatience exhibited by many on the Talk:Speed of light page, I volunteer that any future contributions to a thread that I might offer upon this Talk page will be limited upon request of any editor actively involved in that thread.

Brews ohare (talk) 17:01, 4 August 2010 (UTC) >

Response to Blackburne on civility: As pointed out, these remarks were commentary upon actions participated in by many, and were not personal comments directed at yourself or any other edtior. Brews ohare (talk) 17:34, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Sandstein

I'll not comment on the merits of this appeal at this time for two reasons:

I doubt that the appeal is admissible. Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Speed of light does not provide for appeals to the community against administrative actions taken according to that case's provisions. The only venue of appeal available, therefore, is to the Arbitration Committee.
The appeal raises some of the same issues as the outstanding request for clarification in this matter. To avoid parallel discussion, I recommend that the processing of this appeal is suspended until the request for clarification is resolved. Sandstein 17:19, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Headbomb

And the wikilawyering begins; procedures, formal warnings, etc... Brews the truth is admins have the authority and mandate to stabilize Misplaced Pages and fix problems. Full ARBCOM hearings aren't required everytime someone farts, and warnings don't need to come form the top before you need to heed them.

Also, I want to echo's Elen of the Roads statement "hy does he have to be warned formally EVERY TIME he starts this up. Why can't he remember from one time to the next not to do this shizz, like most of us do with things we're not supposed to do." I and other editors told him several times (see the diffs provided above) to drop the stick in the last weeks (and this behaviour started more or less on the day of topic ban expiry, give or take a week).

I'll doubt, I'll involve myself in yet another ARBCOM nightmare more than this statement (and now that the advocacy ban has been repealed, you can bet your ass that this will be long). I don't feel like debating the obvious with someone who can't grasp it.Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 15:10, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Statement by JohnBlackburne

The diffs were provided to show that a number of editors - most of the participants of the talk page - had objected to Brews' editing over the space of a only a few days. That some reference the previous arbitration case is unsurprising as it concerned the same page and is hardly "old wounds" as it is still in force. I'm not sure why you expect them to show a "warning of impending ArbCom action".

On civility I again point to and , your characterising other editors' contributions as "stupid" and "lazy" respectively. Or only yesterday, perhaps more typically, three good faith attempts by different editors to address your concerns were dismissed like so: . Whether any of this is bad tempered or impatient I'm sure editors can judge for themselves.--JohnBlackburne_deeds 17:22, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Statement by (involved editor 2)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by <Brews_ohare>-Arbitration_enforcement_action_appeal_by_Brews_ohare-2010-08-06T20:58:00.000Z">

Just wanted to note, from reading Talk:Speed of light. Brews, you were repeatedly advised to take the extra content to the article on the Metre, which all agreed could do with the expansion. You are still able to do that - Speed of Light is the only article you are barred from. Why don't you do that, make it work, and you'll be in a much better position to convince people that sanctions are no longer required. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 20:58, 6 August 2010 (UTC)"> ">

Result of the appeal by Brews ohare

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I am of the opinion that this appeal is out of order as the decision does not provide for an appeal here. The appeal would need to go to ArbCom. Stifle (talk) 15:28, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps the clerks can move this appeal section to the appropriate venue?? Brews ohare (talk) 17:05, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Clerk comment: This thread is not actionable as an appeal and so it would form no part of any complaint you submitted to the Arbitration Committee. You should simply file a new request, using the old statements and such if you like. AGK 22:50, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

I need advice on how and where to file the new request, as I cannot understand the procedure. Brews ohare (talk) 03:29, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

David Spector

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning David Spector

User requesting enforcement: Fladrif (talk) 15:22, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested: David spector (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated: Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Transcendental_Meditation_movement#All_parties_instructed

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Transcendental_Meditation_movement#Editors_reminded

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Transcendental_Meditation_movement#Discretionary_sanctions

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

Before the (virtual) ink is dry on the ArbCom decision, accusing other editors and administrators of bad faith, and other misconduct. Violates ArbCom Remedy #2 that all editors must assume good faith, remain civil, and avoid personal attacks, and ArbCom Remedy #1, with reference to Principle #9, Principle #11 , Principle #12 and Principle #14 .
Personal attack on another editor, insisting that he leave Misplaced Pages, faulting other editors for tolerating his participation in Misplaced Pages, expressing annoyance and anger that reliable, scholarly sources must be the basis for articles, instead of the "truth" a he knows it. Violates ArbCom Remedy #2 that all editors must assume good faith, remain civil, and avoid personal attacks, and ArbCom Remedy #1, with reference to Principle #1 , Principle #2 , Principle #4 , Principle #5 , Principle #9, Principle #11 , Principle #12 and Principle #14 .
Accuses other editors and administrators of bad faith, of having an agenda to push a POV, of being uninformed and ignorant of the facts/truth , and faults them for relying on published, reliable secondary sources which he finds irritating because the sources are allegedly not informed. Violates ArbCom Remedy #2 that all editors must assume good faith, remain civil, and avoid personal attacks, and ArbCom Remedy #1, with reference to Principle #1 , Principle #2 , Principle #4 , Principle #5 , Principle #9, Principle #11 , Principle #12 and Principle #14 .
Accusing other editors he categorizes as "anti TM" of bias, lack of good faith, bullying and wikilawyering. Accusing editors he identifies as "pro-TM' of misconduct, making unsupported assertions of off-wiki intimidation by associates of editors. Violates ArbCom Remedy #2 that all editors must assume good faith, remain civil, and avoid personal attacks, and ArbCom Remedy #1, with reference to Principle #1 , Principle #2 , Principle #4 , Principle #5 , Principle #9, Principle #11 , Principle #12 and Principle #14 .
Personal attack on an editor for citing policy regarding no personal attacks on article talk pages. Violates ArbCom Remedy #2 that all editors must assume good faith, remain civil, and avoid personal attacks, and ArbCom Remedy #1, with reference to Principle #9, Principle #11 , Principle #12 and Principle #14 .
Essentially admits that he assumes bad faith on the part of an Administrator with respect to the positions taken in discussions on sources, complaining that Misplaced Pages should not rely on reliable published sources, but on editors like himself who know the "truth". Violates ArbCom Remedy #2 that all editors must assume good faith, remain civil, and avoid personal attacks, and ArbCom Remedy #1, with reference to Principle #1 , Principle #2 , Principle #4 , Principle #5 , Principle #9, Principle #11 , Principle #12 and Principle #14 .
Accuses other editors of cowardice for not disclosing their real life identities and thus not "standing behind" their edits. Violates ArbCom Remedy #2 that all editors must assume good faith, remain civil, and avoid personal attacks, and ArbCom Remedy #1, with reference to Principle #9, Principle #11 ,
Accuses an editor of being a bully and asserts that he has psychological problems. Violates ArbCom Remedy #2 that all editors must assume good faith, remain civil, and avoid personal attacks, and ArbCom Remedy #1, with reference to Principle #9, Principle #11 , Principle #12 and Principle #14
More of the same, utterly unapologetic, in the face of administrator warning. Violates ArbCom Remedy #2 that all editors must assume good faith, remain civil, and avoid personal attacks, and ArbCom Remedy #1, with reference to Principle #9, Principle #11 , Principle #12 and Principle #14

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

Warning by Fladrif (talk · contribs)
Warning by Fladrif (talk · contribs)
Warning by Woonpton (talk · contribs)
Warning by Will Beback (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
Warning by Will Beback (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction): A formal warning per the Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Transcendental_Meditation_movement#Discretionary_sanctions

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning David Spector

Statement by David Spector

I am very impressed by the obvious time and energy Fladrif has put into his list of complaints against me. As usual with his lists, his summaries are actually interpretations, designed to make his citations appear more favorable to whatever complaint he is making.

I cannot equal his detailed citations or show the flaws in each of his summaries to defend myself as meticulously, since I have other projects in real life that demand my attention and little time to get to them. That's why I edit WP in spurts, when I have time.

I avoid any substantive editing in the family of Transcendental Meditation movement (TMM) articles almost entirely, knowing that my edits will only raise barely rational complaints from Fladrif and WillBeBack. The remaining (pro-TM) editors can work in such an hostile environment; I cannot. Note, if relevant: I am partially pro-TM and partially anti-TM in my POV, but I can easily put both aside and edit neutrally.

Unfortunately, the TMM articles are dominated by pro-TM editors who, although very polite, are currently only kept in check from transferring their POV to the articles by Fladrif and WillBeBack, other anti-TM editors having left of their own choosing. Thus, I wouldn't feel justified working to get either one of these editors banned, even though it would certainly create a beautiful atmosphere in which to do some excellent editing (the articles are simply terrible as a result of their long history of edit warring and wikilawyering to PUSH pro and con POVs). So, that's why I mostly stay away from those articles, as one can see in my contributions history.

Fladrif has been a thorn in my side ever since I started telling the truth and complaining about him (which, I admit, does not conform to WP policy). He almost single-handedly got an informative article on Natural Stress Relief, written by one of its clients, deleted. Natural Stress Relief is my nonprofit, all-volunteer organization dedicated to providing an inexpensive alternative to Transcendental Meditation (I currently have over 900 clients). The only thing wrong with that article was that it had few /significant references, since the organization is only four years old and has not yet been discovered by reliable sources.

While I agree that my best policy would have been to ignore him (AGF) because attacking an unreasonable person only makes the situation worse, I resent bullies like him, with his constant wikilawyering against me and other editors, getting away with their clever but antisocial behavior. I don't know why the other editors put up with it. I can't.

I am very glad he has brought this formal complaint, because hopefully one or both of us will be banned from the TMM articles, which in my view will cure a big headache for the TMM articles, their editors, and for me personally.

Note, in case it is relevant: although WillBeBack, whom I mentioned above, constantly objects to any proposed edit by the pro-TM editors and always sides with Fladrif, I have absolutely no other complaint about him. He is always polite; his suggestions are reasonable. His remarks are genuinely polite and respectful. He clearly wants the articles to be good. He and I have maintained a private correspondence which I have found helpful for the articles and which have helped me understand some of what goes on there. David Spector (talk) 18:12, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning David Spector

The issue here is a chronic failure to assume good faith. It's hardly even necessary to look at the links since David's statement here shows again his inability to avoid making negative personal assertions and assumptions about other editors. Will Beback talk 18:29, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

My perception is that David's presence (and even indirect influence, as much of his comments are in relation to TMM but made in threads on user talk and other areas outside of mainspace) is an unhelpful one. He professes to have withdrawn from the TMM topic area altogether, but the influence of the negative comments about those still active there that he continues to make elsewhere cannot be underestimated. It may be necessary at this point to prohibit him from participation in discussions relating to Transcendental Meditation movement articles or the activities of any users who frequent them. (A three month topic ban would not be unreasonable.) I was at first minded to show leniency in light of the reduced incidence of unhelpful TMM-related comments by David in the fortnight gone by, but it remains the case that he was still sniping about Fladrif and others well into July; considering the case ended early in June, I suspect this is one soapbox that David will not step down from without a push. AGK 22:47, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Result concerning David Spector

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

Appeal by Loosmark

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Appealing user: Loosmark (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Dr. Loosmark 20:01, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Sanction being appealed: , explanation here:

Administrator imposing the sanction: Sandstein (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator

Statement by Loosmark

I am appealing the sanction because it seems harsh and well useless. I don't know if technically broke the interaction ban, however it's clear that my intention was to avoid getting into trouble - that's way I asked admin Sandstein what I am allowed to do. I think such behavior - (asking an admin when in doubt) should be encouraged rather than punished. What exactly is Sandstein trying to prevent with this block? That I ask him again what am I allowed to do? Dr. Loosmark 20:01, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Sandstein

I recommend that the appeal be declined for the reasons given on my talk page. I did consider taking no action in this instance for the reasons enunciated by Fut. Perf., but then considered that this is Loosmark's fifth block for violating his interaction ban (I wonder what it takes to get the message across that "no interaction" means "no interaction"?) and I am heartily sick of the general waste of time caused by the persistent inability of these two editors to work productively together.

To help contribute to wasting less time, and taking into consideration that such sanctions are meant to be discretionary, if I come across such appeals on unblock patrol, I do not submit them to the community for review just because I personally would have come to a different conclusion (which is frequently the case), but only if the sanction is both substantial and clearly unjustifiable. I ask Fut.Perf. to consider adopting a similar policy in the case of future appeals. Sandstein 20:51, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Statement by (involved editor 1)

Statement by Tropical wind

What about this offensive insult? Tropical wind (talk) 15:55, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Loosmark

I'd be inclined to support an unblock here. Sandstein's instructions about what to do and what not to do in case of mutual complaints between the two users involved in the no-interaction ban were clear but (justifiably) quite intricate – so intricate indeed that I wouldn't hold it against a user if they momentarily couldn't remember what they were supposed to do or not to do (in a situation where both had just made a complaint against the other, within the rules). Loosmark merely asked if he could comment , and in doing so, he carefully abstained from making any implied or covert comments or hints as to what he was going to say, so this was not, in my reading, an attempt to wikilawyer his way around the restriction, but an honest question. I understand Sandstein wishes to be as precise in his execution of the rules as possible, but I personally wouldn't have blocked for this. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:23, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

I completely fail to grasp why Loosmark can't ask for clarification of his ban. As to 5 bans of Loosmark-3 of them are made by Sandstein. I think that this perhaps is getting too emotional for both sides which are becoming to engaged with each other.In regards to the above ban, Loosmark was clearly asking for simple clarification of what he can do, that isn't harmfull or disruptive to my view.(The whole interaction ban btw is failure in my view, since blocks depend on nothing precise and are decided it seems on what Sandstein thinks and obviously neither Varsavian or Loosmark can guess that without asking Sandstein in the first place. Clear rules should be made and explained rather than vogue descriptions that can't be be even asked about as this would result in potential ban).--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 01:22, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Sandstein, I think it was perfectly understandable for Loosmark to ask about this in the first place even though perhaps in the strictest sense it was a violation. Also, with the block put in place I think he clearly understands that even making such innocent inquiries can be interpreted as a violation of the ban. So the block really serves no purpose at this point - how about just rescinding it with the understanding that Loosmark understands etc.?radek (talk) 02:10, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Result of the appeal by Loosmark

Closing this as not overturned, since the appeal is evidently not getting any further traction from uninvolved administrators, and will soon become stale because the block will expire within the next day anyway. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:10, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

41.132.*

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning 41.132.*

User requesting enforcement: Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:18, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested: Anonymous editor on 41.32.* range at Bulgars and related articles, most recently 41.132.178.5 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated: Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Digwuren#Discretionary sanctions (incivility, edit-warring, POV-pushing)

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

Edit-warring against consensus of multple editors, OR-pushing, on Cumans:
Same on Bulgars:
Incivility: (and see also the edit summaries of those above)
Refuses to heed WP:V and other policies

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

"DIGWUREN" warning by Future Perfect at Sunrise (talk · contribs)
patient attempt to engage in discussion by Cplakidas (talk · contribs)
3RR warning by Fut.Perf. (latest rv's were after this warning)

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction): Topic ban from all articles relating to Bulgaria, the Bulgars, and other Turkic groups

Additional comments by editor filing complaint: This is a highly persistent anon POV-warrior who has been pushing nationally motivated OR/fringe positions on Bulgaria, Bulgars, Bulgar calendar, Cumans, Kipchaks and other related articles for several months, revert-warring against a consensus of multiple expert editors. Most of his edits are to remove or argue against the scholarly consensus that the ancient Bulgars and other nomadic group in early medieval Europe were Turkic peoples. He edits from semi-dynamic IPs in an easily recognisable range. We need a topic ban, i.e. a blanket license to revert and block new IP appearances on sight.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

15:23, 8 August 2010

Discussion concerning 41.132.*

Statement by 41.132.*

Comments by others about the request concerning 41.132.*

Fully agree with Fut Perf. This is a highly disruptive, combative, uncivil and opinionated editor, who doesn't seem ready to ever sit down and discuss, not when it is about The Truth. Constantine ✍ 16:47, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
Seems to be a hopeless case. A cautionary post from at the anon's talkpage resulted in a reply on my talkpage with heading "Ignoramus". And I should point out that I haven't even hinted at any kind of opinion about the subject issue. Peter 17:05, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
Procedural note: the IP has been blocked for 24hrs as a short-term measure against the ongoing edit war, by Courcelles . That of course means he can't comment here. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:13, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- I've notified the IP about this and pointed out that it's possible to make a comment or appeal at the talkpage (I'm assuming that the block doesn't cover that too). Peter 23:09, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Result concerning 41.132.*

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

I agree that this seems to be a persistent and disruptive WP:TRUTH-pusher and am inclined to impose the requested topic ban, unless the user makes a very convincing statement why that should not be done, or another admin objects, in the next 24 hours. Sandstein 19:45, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Agree that a topic ban should be applied. PhilKnight (talk) 20:10, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Russavia

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Russavia

User requesting enforcement: radek (talk) 19:25, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested: Russavia (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated: "Russavia (talk · contribs) is prohibited from commenting on or unnecessarily interacting with editors from the EEML case, except in the case of necessary dispute resolution."

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

Russavia has inserted themselves into a middle of an ongoing dispute between myself, Chumchum7 and others. The question as to whether the controversy about Polish participation is notable or not has been a long running subject of this dispute and Russavia is obviously taking a side here, unnecessarily interacting with me, and so in a clear violation of his restriction. The edit can also be seen as provocative in and of itself, and given the heated nature of that dispute this appears to be a straight forward attempt at "pouring gasoline onto a fire"

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

Warning by Sandstein

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction): block

Additional comments by editor filing complaint: This is Russavia's second violation in a short period of time, after this . Wait. Actually it's his fourth if we count his comments at Miacek's appeal and his request at this very board not too long ago against himself in violation of WP:POINT. Russavia is clearly and deliberately trying to test the boundaries of his interaction ban. Since the ban is mutual, I am of course also forbidden from interacting with Russavia except for purposes of necessary dispute resolution. This is necessary dispute resolution, as Russavia jumped into an argument I was having with somebody else.

Re to Future Perfect: Future Perfect, it's not even about editing the same article. If Russavia had only edited the section on Australian participation then I would not have had a problem with that. But instead he chose to edit the section on Polish participation, one in which I have been extensively involved. That's not participating in 'necessary dispute resolution', that's CREATING a dispute between himself and me, where none existed, in clear violation of the interaction ban. Am I allowed to undo his edit or revert him? Am I allowed to edit articles on Nashi or Air Fiji or The Diplomatic Relations of Russia and Australia? Am I allowed to edit the article on the 2010 Moscow Victory Parade? Specifically making edits against Russavia?

The fact that editor A edits an article does not AUTOMATICALLY mean that the article is off-limits for B. But it does mean that B should not jump into any disputes that A is having on that article and should take care to avoid interaction with A on that article. Russavia's not doing that - quite the opposite.radek (talk) 20:38, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Or think of this way. Now Russavia has made this edit to the talk page . I take my interaction ban with him to mean that I cannot respond to this or to undue his edits to the article. Yet, this is precisely the subject I've been involved in on the article for some time now. If it is okay for him to make these statements despite his interaction ban, and I cannot reply to these comments, I am effectively frozen out of the discussion that I had been a part off much longer then he. If I CAN reply to them, then the interaction ban is pretty meaningless. So a different way of phrasing your question would be: if editors A and B have a mutual interaction ban, and editor A is working on the article and editor B comes in - and this is judged not to be a violation of the interaction ban - then is editor A prohibited from replying or continuing to work on the article? The obvious answer is "no". But that means that either the initial edits by B are in violation of the interaction ban, or the interaction ban simply doesn't exists for all practical purposes.radek (talk) 20:46, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning Russavia

Statement by Russavia

Comments by others about the request concerning Russavia

I'm not entirely certain to what extent the "no-interaction" ban is meant to cover also editing of the same articles. After all, the rule contains the modification "... except in the case of necessary dispute resolution" – which implies that there must be conceivable, legitimate occasions where the editors involved actually have a dispute in the first place, which seems to imply content disagreements over articles. Does the ban really mean that once A has edited an article, that article is off-limits for B? Not sure. Thoughts? Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:24, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- Arbitrators don't usually intervene in these discussions, but as the drafter of that language in the decision, I can state that it was not intended to mean that these users can't edit the same articles. Of course they are required to abide by all other applicable policies and any relevant restrictions when they do so. (Not commenting on the merits of this request beyond answering Fut.Perf.'s question.) Newyorkbrad (talk) 04:57, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Result concerning Russavia

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

User:TimidGuy and User:Littleolive oil and Edith Sirius Lee

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning the above three editors

User requesting enforcement: --Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 02:27, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
User against whom enforcement is requested

TimidGuy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Littleolive oil (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Edith Sirius Lee (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated: "that editor repeatedly or seriously violates the behavioural standards or editorial processes of Misplaced Pages in connection with these articles."

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

A RfC was filled here TimidGuy deemed these editors misinformed and thus no need to listen to their advice. These violation have been ongoing by these WP:SPAs. Many incorrect accusations have been made including Timidguy insults my usage of source , little more than a personal attack. They continue to agree among themselves and attempt to use Misplaced Pages as a method to advertise their organization.

Littleolive reverts consensus in RfC:
TimidGuy reverts consensus in RfC:
TimidGuy does not follow RfC:
Littleolive does not follow RfC:
TimidGuy removed references in the lead
Edith Sirius Lee reverts changes

Prior warnings

Timidguy was warned above. Littleolive oil was warned here Edith was warned here Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 06:39, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction): block

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning above users

Statement by TimidGuy

Comments by others about the request concerning TimidGuy

Statement by Littleolive oil

Comments by others about the request concerning Littleolive oil

Statement by Edith Sirius Lee

Comments by others about the request concerning Edith Sirius Lee

Result concerning TimidGuy, Littleolive oil, and Edith Sirius Lee

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.