Talk:The Daily Telegraph - Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Viriditas (talk | contribs) at 12:02, 19 August 2010 (→Climate change denial: +). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Revision as of 12:02, 19 August 2010 by Viriditas (talk | contribs) (→Climate change denial: +)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)

United Kingdom C‑class

	United Kingdom portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject United Kingdom, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the United Kingdom on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.United KingdomWikipedia:WikiProject United KingdomTemplate:WikiProject United KingdomUnited Kingdom
C	This article has been rated as C-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Journalism C‑class

	Journalism portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Journalism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of journalism on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.JournalismWikipedia:WikiProject JournalismTemplate:WikiProject JournalismJournalism
C	This article has been rated as C-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Circulation and ownership

What would be helpful to me is decade-by-decade figures on average daily circulation. Can anyone add that to the article?

Isn't the DT about to change ownership? Anyone know enough about it to write a little snippet for the article? Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 00:41, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

New ownership hasn't been decided yet.But this REALLY needs some history of the former owners,generations of Lords Burnham followed by the Lords Camrose until Black elbowed them out.That covers over 130 years of history that's omitted.--L.E./12.144.5.2/le@put.com

Dyer incident

No mention of the Dyer incident in India, after which the Daily Telegraph rewarded the man a vast sum of money for his deed which they (conservatives) considered good at the time ( killing 500+ civilians and injuring thousands ) in 1920 to stop any peaceful protests in India. Anybody agree it should be included? (User name not stated)

Please put any information you have in the article. Others can always expand or amend it.

Tyrenius 20:56, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

POV notice

I don't know much about the academic niceties of political terminology, but the reference to the Telegraph being anywhere on an "authoritarian" axis strikes me as obvious left-wing bias and an highly inaccurate and hurtful insult to this democratic newspaper and its readers. Carina22 18:33, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

'Authoritarian'?

I wonder if the commentator misunderstood.

The article says "The Telegraph is known for its right-wing politics. Within this classification it takes a roughly central position on the authoritarian/libertarian axis." It therefore does not accuse the Telegraph of being authoritarian. To do that it would have been necessary to say that on the "authoritarian/ libertarian axis" the paper occupies an authoritarian position - whereas it is said that the paper occupies a roughly central position: i.e. roughly midway between libertarian and authoritarian. 16:38, 21 February 2006 User:193.123.236.185

At the moment it says, "The Telegraph is known for its right-wing politics. Within this classification it takes a roughly central position on the authoritarian/libertarian axis." I can't see anything that says, or implies, that it is not respectful of democracy. A democratic newspaper can be right-wing and occupy a "roughly central position..." etc. The text does not even say it occupies and extreme right-wing position, in fact the opposite - that it takes a relatively balanced view. I should think its readers would be soundly in agreement. You seem to object to the mere fact that it is anywhere on an "authoritarian/libertarian axis" but this is a yardstick that can be applied to any newspaper (or individual or party). It is surely where something is placed on it that is the key point.

Tyrenius 05:35, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

As there has been no further response to two posts advocating that the statement is not POV, I have removed the POV notice.

Tyrenius 20:53, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps there should be a link to the political compass article if their specific terminology is going to be used.137.138.46.155 15:20, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Remove "central position"

There's been somme discussion over POV matters but does anyone object to my removing the following? "Within this classification it takes a roughly central position on the authoritarian/libertarian axis. It is less traditionalist and more libertarian than The Spectator but more traditionalist and less libertarian than The Economist." I think that the article is a lot better off without it: 1. "Within this classification" is superfluous or else implies that libertarians and authoritarians are subtypes of conservatives - perhaps, going by the remarks about the Spectator and Economist, that authoritarians are on the right and libertarians are one the left. It's not what the author meant and it's not the only way of reading it but the whole thing reads fine without these three words. 2. "it takes a roughly central position on the authoritarian/libertarian axis" - It's difficult to point to any particular entrenched position that the Telegraph generally takes whether authoritarian, libertarian or somewhere in the middle. It's never particularly extreme but in the past has taken all sorts of positions on either side that can hardly be called "centre". I suppose its natural tendency is to be conservative without regard to authoritarianism. This doesn't mean that everything averages out and makes the DT central, it just means it doesn't have a libertarian/ authoritarian editorial stance and there's not much point in commenting on this. 3. "It is less traditionalist and more libertarian than The Spectator but more traditionalist and less libertarian than The Economist" - I'm not sure what this is meant to clarify - the Telegraph's supposed position in the centre has already been commented on and this sentence merely seems designed to illustrate the position of the Economist and Spectator especially given that they're fairly obscure in comparison with the DT. Anyway I'd like to know if people object before I delete anything 131.111.8.99 11:57, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

It's a bit pedantic and I don't think it's helpful to most people, so the article would be better off without it.

Tyrenius 12:33, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

"traditionally right-wing

I put in the description "traditionally right-wing" and gave a reference from the BBC website where this description had occurred. I notice it has been changed back to "right of centre" and marked POV. This is an incorrect use of POV, which is only used to indicate a biased point of view from a Wicki editor. If the editor quotes an external source (and particularly if it is referenced) then that is not POV, even if the external source is POV, because it is simply stating from a NPOV that this opinion is held by this external source. This is not the first time I have come across this misunderstanding of the POV policy. The correct thing in these circumstance, if one considers that the source quoted is imbalanced, is to quote and reference another source to restore the balance, and to show the variety of attitudes that exist. If it is wished to put in the statement "right of centre" then please give the source and reference for this statement (otherwise the editor is guilty of POV) and then draw the contrast between the two positions. Furthermore, I notice that "right of centre" was reinstated and the reference to the BBC article still retained. The BBC article was about Sir David Barclay. The relevant passage with an editorial opinion is:

His statement comes after he was quoted in the Guardian as saying the editorial stance of the traditionally right-wing Telegraph was flexible.

I might point out that personally I actually consider the Telegraph is often far more liberal and broad-minded than the supposedly liberal papers, and I do not have an axe to grind. I am simply following Wicki protocol in finding external sources and quoting them, rather than giving my own opinion. Tyrenius 01:15, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Telegraph policy is to take a Conservative, broadly right of centre stance from its opinion pages, but to provide independent news. Traditionally right-wing is accurate, I'd say, but needs to be qualified.

Douglasi 10:46, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

The problem is that the Telegraph has always taken a right-wing viewpoint, especially the independents who write for it. Simon Heffer and Ambrose Evans-Pritchard, as well as Mark Steyn are all extremely right wing by British standards. Darkmind1970 13:20, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

"Right of centre" is direct quote from source. It is also noted as "Conservative" in its support. Collect (talk) 21:15, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Editors of the Sunday Telegraph

I've deleted John Thompson's name, as the blue link was to a disambiguation page that does not, in fact, include a JT as editor of the paper. In addition, unlike Trevor Grove (whose entry I recently began, to eliminate the red link) I can find nothing about JT in the archives. The list of editors for both the Daily and Sunday Telegraphs is not billed as comprehensive in any case. Robma 07:23, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

POV and Refs in Recent history secton

Please discuss this under this heading! I have marked the Recent history as being POV due to sentences such as :

Heffer, known for his combative style and wit......
... to understand the finer details of any sporting deals there is no one better than Mihir Bose...

and as requiring refs for statements such as :

... Hollinger Inc. which in turn owns 30% of Hollinger International...
... the Barclay brothers purchased Hollinger ... for £665m...

Discuss here... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by David Humphreys (talk • contribs) .

You are right. I suggest you remove any statements that are POV or need references and put them in a special section on this page until they have been verified. It spoils the article when it is tagged in the way it is at the moment. Tyrenius 01:03, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Rather than remove (half!!) the section I would like to see it cited and de-poved...really the whole section could do with a tidy and a rewrite, but I don't know enough about the subject ... anyone willing to help ??? David Humphreys 01:37, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Be bold! All changes are reversible. Tyrenius 03:59, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

"one of only two remaining daily British broadsheet newspapers"

Is this actually precisely true? I'm fairly sure the Birmingham Post is still broadsheet, and the intro doesn't specify national newspapers. Loganberry (Talk) 01:38, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Changing editorial stance to right-wing

From the BBC source below as well as the discussion I think the consensus is that The Telegraph is more right-wing than centre-right. The Telegraph is certainly more right-wing than The Guardian left-wing and the Guardian is listed as left-wing. Sisalto 21:43, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I missed this. People keep changing the Guardian's editorial position, much as they keep changing that of the DT. I think until some stability emerges that paper can't really be used as a precedent. Anyway the Indie is probably left of the Guardian and that's listed as centre-left. I prefer to avoid the word "right-wing" if possible. It has acquired negative connotations, much like "regime", and these should not be introduced needlessly into a neutral article. I've added a ref for centre-right now. The other BBC article talks about the traditional position. This one talks about a recent position. --Lo2u 23:08, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Suggested merge of telegraph.co.uk into this article

See Talk:Telegraph.co.uk.--Svetovid (talk) 12:01, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

This has now been done by myself. --Vergency (talk) 20:22, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Young Telegraph

Anyone want to create a page for the Daily Telegraph's children's/young adult section...? I'll probably get around to it sooner or later if not. ntnon (talk) 03:51, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't warrant a page (article). See Misplaced Pages:Notability. Add it as a section into this article. -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 09:34, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Broadsheet v quality

When the word Broadsheet is used in relation to the circulation, what is meant is the quality press i.i. Times, FT, Guardian and Independent, and not just the FT which we have already seen is the only other broadsheet in size. And we're not just comparing the Telegraph with the FT. Therefore I have used the newer definiton of quality rather tha broadsheet Chasnor15 (talk) 07:57, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree - references to broadsheet and tabloid are misleading and therefore unencyclopedic. -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 09:35, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Maily Telegraph

What is the actual reason for The Telegraph being called The Mailograph? Theprivate eye parodies article says that the reason is due to hiring Ex-Daily Mail journalists, but this article suggests the reason is due to a shift in news coverage —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.84.76.47 (talk) 17:14, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

It has been often referred to as the Maily Telegraph, Daily Mailograph etc. over the last decade because of its tendency to move downmarket and run similar material to the Daily Mail. It did hire some notable ex Mail writers as part of this process. In particular it has tried to target the Mail's predominantly femail, lower middle class readership. It has also started to run lots of pictures of scantily dressed women and 'celebrities' in typical tabloid fashion.

These names originated in Private Eye but have achieved wide currency. --80.176.142.11 (talk) 21:01, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Then find cites for the "wide currency" if they need to be in the article here and not in the Private Eye article instead. Collect (talk) 22:41, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Nickname

The Daily Telegraph has been nicknamed the Gleephart (a simple anagram) since at least 1985. I had inserted this in the main section, but it was removed some time ago. However, the nickname (as with The Guardian with Grauniad it is a backhanded reference for its printing and compositional gaffes. The name is still current - no matter how few hits Gleephart gives on Google (or similar search engines), I frequently hear people in various parts of the UK refer to the Gleephart - verbally, that is. (This is unconnected with what Private Eye calls the paper!) I think this nickname deserves restoration, as beforetimes. Hair Commodore (talk) 15:12, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

I have never heard anyone use this or seen it written down. Douglasi (talk) 23:37, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps it's current only in specific social circles? I'm British, take quite an interest (not professionally) in the newspapers, and though I have come across "Gleephart", in comparison with Grauniad it's vanishingly rare. I should think I've heard it two or three times in my life. Loganberry (Talk) 01:09, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Religion

Since the Telegraph is a conservative newspaper, it seems relevant to take notice on what its aproach on religion is. I've noticed that the Telepraph has also taken a moderately conservative approach on religious issues, such as in the Holy Smoke column. There are also many press articles that tend to confirm an editorial interest for Christianity. ADM (talk) 11:48, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Small c-conservative

I don't think the ideology section should say "Conservative Party", since the Telegraph doesn't simply tow the party line uncritically all of the time. Its not a Fox News/BBC sort of partisan party broadcast deal. If you take the United Kingdom Parliamentary expenses scandal for instance — there were actually more members of the Conservative Party implicated than any other party. The Telegraph didn't just give them a free ride because of party membership. - Yorkshirian (talk) 20:29, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Front-page example needs updating

The current lay-out of the front page is significantly different from the one which is currently on show and the article requires a new, more modern, example

93.96.103.199 (talk) 21:55, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Blog usage

Blogs are not generally used for statements of fact on WP. They may, in some cases, and where they are under editorial control of an RS source, be used to show a person's opinion, ascribed to that person. See WP:RS. Collect (talk) 13:05, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Dead links on Misplaced Pages to The Daily Telegraph. Articles created on 2000-2005

Not sure if this is right place to mention this. Perhaps a person reading this page might know. Seems all the links on wikipedia starting with "http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/" to articles from the telegraph years 2000,2001,2002,2003,2004,2005 are dead (redirected to homepage).

Google searches:
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=site%3Awikipedia.org+%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.telegraph.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fmain.jhtml%3Fxml%3D%2Fnews%2F2001%22&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=610e7dd948e54cca
other searches to get the rest of the years:
site:wikipedia.org "http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2000/"
site:wikipedia.org "http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/"
site:wikipedia.org "http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/"
site:wikipedia.org "http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/"
site:wikipedia.org "http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/"
site:wikipedia.org "http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/"
2000 About 75 results (0.12 seconds)
2001 About 461 results (0.11 seconds)
2002 About 455 results (0.11 seconds)
2003 About 126 results (0.08 seconds)
2004 About 110 results (0.10 seconds)
2005 About 175 results (0.21 seconds)

Those links redirect to the homepage.

2000 seems some are redirecting to the current URL is done by the site itself. Some are redirected to homepage.
2001 all i checked are redirected to homepage
2002 all i checked are redirected to homepage
2003 all i checked are redirected to homepage
2004 all i checked are redirected to homepage
2005 all i checked are redirected to homepage

Articles are still available at telegraph.co.uk but under a new URL. New URL's seem to start like this: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/expat/expatnews/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.31.52.164 (talk) 15:33, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Ben Goldacre

User:Collect recently removed a blog source written by Ben Goldacre, claiming "blog is not RS - see WP:RS". However RS says, "Self-published material may, in some circumstances, be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications." That seems to be the case with Ben Goldacre. Viriditas (talk) 11:11, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

In the case at hand, the claim was made without stating it was pure opinion. The blog is not under the editorial control of the Guardian, hence thatis not relevant. Badscience.net is not part of the Guardian as fasr as I can tell. Collect (talk) 11:50, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Some of it is reprints from the Guardian, some of it is not. In any case, Goldacre is considered an expert on this topic. If you could address the underlying problem with the claims, we can work to fix or remove them. I think you'll find that I'm equally open to both options once I understand your reasoning. Viriditas (talk) 12:11, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Self-published sources are not RS - and are generally used for exceedingly limited purposes. The case at hand is far beyond the permitted use of a self-published source. Collect (talk) 12:18, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Ben Goldacre is considered a RS for "bad science", and he's published professionally in this area as a journalist, author, and physician/scientist. Could you please address the problem with the content in the article? I already know your position on the status of the source. Could I also point you to this book, Bad Science (2008) and his newspaper column? Viriditas (talk) 12:26, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

WP:RS is ~~policy~~ content guideline of long standing. Anyone's personal self-published blog remains a personal self-published blog. Nor does a book become a validation for anything not in the book <g>. Nor doe opinions in a self-published blog mysteriously become citable facts. Collect (talk) 14:51, 17 August 2010 (UTC) Collect (talk) 10:46, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

RS is a content guideline, not a policy, and If you read it, you'll discover that the reason many SPS aren't acceptable is because we are worried about whether the information comes from an actual expert in the field, after all, anyone can upload their work on a website. In this case, we are dealing with an expert on bad science whose work has been published by third parties. You claim that the information is a "personal opinion" but looking at it closely, we see that this appears to be the mainstream, scientific opinion, in other words, scientific consensus, so that claim also doesn't hold. Could you please address the content itself and your concerns with it, as I previously requested above? I don't see what is objectionable about it or why you consider it an opinion that deviates from another. Do you have information which contradicts it? Viriditas (talk) 20:03, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

The deletion of this graf seems like a whitewash, to hide the Daily Telegraph author's attempt to garble (or perhaps just hide his misunderstanding of) the U of Birmingham research in a way that matches the Telegraph's political stance on climate science. Collect's expressed pretext for deleting seems unconvincing to me; how many people will have read Goldacre's summary of U of B's work and swallowed his interpretation without considering that it was "just" a blog post? To them it will seem to have been published in the newspaper. How would they know his version was controversial if it's suppressed here? Others' opinions? Rousse (talk) 00:44, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

] is policy. Goldacre is not an expert on the newspaper industry, hence is not a valid source from his self-published blog. Furhter, he is a sometime employee of a competitor of the Telegraph, hence there is an implicit commercial bias possiblde. Thirdly, the editors at the Telegraph are, indeed, living persons, to whom improper acts are laid (this was used to prevent any dissing of the CRU folks as an implicit BLP violation elsewhere on WP). As for the assertion that it is "scientific opinion" that the Telegraph made a "notable mistake" - that is quite absurd. I found absolutely no peer-reviewed article stating that the Telegraph made a mistake. Conflating Climate Change controversy with "mistakes" is far beyond the reasonable scope of an article on a newspaper. What we are left with is an editorial opinion in a self-published source from a commercial competitor of a newspaper that the newspaper deliberately, for example, allowed one side and only one side to comment on an issue. That requires a genuine Reliable Source. Collect (talk) 10:46, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

That is not correct. The research was funded by the Natural Environment Research Council, and the editor of their online magazine has commented on the situation. This is verifiable and reliable. The research, which was published in the journal Science, was misrepresented by The Daily Telegraph. Viriditas (talk) 19:58, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Climate change denial

Looking into this further, a pattern emerges showing that this publication has been misrepresenting scientific research and pushing a denialist viewpoint for years. This deserves its own subsection. Viriditas (talk) 22:00, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

In which case, Climate Change arbitration case rules should be in place -- the claims being inserted are contrary to any lkely resolution of the issue by ArbCom, consisting, as they do, of using self-published blogs. Thanks! Collect (talk) 22:42, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

What claims? The organization who funded the study, the scientist who published the study, and an expert on the subject of scientific distortions in the press have all demonstrated that the Telegraph screwed up. This is not a claim, it happened. Furthermore, the NERC cite above shows that the Telegraph acknowledged the error by correcting part of the article in response to concerns from the NERC. If any of this isn't making sense to you, feel free to ask questions. The sources demonstrating this error by the paper are reliable. More importantly and to the point, there is a consistent pattern of climate change denial, distortions, and misrepresentations stretching back for almost a decade. This is not a one time event or innocent mistake, and RS have made this observation many times. The primary issue here is not climate science, but explicit and unabashed media bias, to the point where scientific organizations, individual scientists, and media analysts have stepped forward to say that something is seriously wrong with the reliability of the Telegraph as a trusted source for science-related topics. Viriditas (talk) 23:06, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

The problem is that using the term "denialism" may be sufficiently POV to cause problems in and of itself. It may well be wise to simply agree that SPS is not sufficient to make such a charge about a newspaper. As for any assertion that this is not an "innocent mistake" - such a claim would require an extremely strong reliable source. Collect (talk) 23:59, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

The editor of the NERC's online magazine is a RS. The NERC funded the study in question. The scientist who helped write and publish the study in the journal Science is a RS. And Ben Goldacre is an expert in the field of science-related media bias, which is what we are discussing. All three are authoritative reliable sources for this topic, and the SPS content guideline does not prevent us from using them to discuss this incident. We also know that there is a preponderance of RS addressing the issue of climate change denial coming from this newspaper, and we have reliable sources such as the Chief Scientific Adviser to the UK Government and President of the Royal Society noting similar incidents. The body of evidence is huge, and for you to dismiss experts in the scientific community on this subject as "self published" is laughable. Viriditas (talk) 00:07, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

By WP definition, the blog post is "self-published." I commend you to read the policies and guidelines applicable thereto before derinding that concern as "laughable." Collect (talk) 00:10, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

You have been corrected on this point. It's not a policy, it's a content guideline to help prevent charlatans from pretending to be experts and "publishing" their own pet theories. We don't have that problem here, rather the complete opposite. We have misguided editors trying to prevent experts from commenting on their own subjects. The editor of NERC's online magazine, Owen Gaffney, is a reliable source for this subject, as are the comments by Professor Ian Fairchild from the University of Birmingham who authored the study, as well as Ben Goldacre, an expert on science-related media bias. All three authoritative sources are acceptable, and the SPS content guideline is not intended to deny and prevent using sources from experts in their field. This is the very definition of a "reliable source", so your objections to their use have no basis. At this point, your objections are just wikilawyering. However, this incident should not be seen in isolation, as there is an established, consistent pattern of science-related media bias from this newspaper, and that is what the proposed subsection should cover in its entirety. And in case I'm not being clear, Owen Gaffney makes a convincing case that The Daily Telegraph altered a news article about scientific research to suit its own political beliefs. According to Gaffney, "Over a year ago I questioned a journalist at the paper about how it reported and commented on climate science. He said the then editor did not believe the evidence presented by the climate research community." I don't think anyone is surprised. Viriditas (talk) 00:48, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Biased coverage

"...the study by Boykoff (2007a) provides a partial study of UK newspapers because it included only The Guardian, The Times, The Independent, The Observer, The Sunday Times, and The Independent on Sunday. In fact, the Daily Mail and The Daily Telegraph, and their Sunday edition counterparts, have remained the main sources of coverage that has denied the role of human contributions to climate change. While their coverage of news about climate change has more closely reflected the consensus view among scientists (since such articles are often prompted by publication of new research), their commentary and leading articles have reflected points of view that are much less consistent with, and informed by, the results of scientific research." -(Boyce, Lewis. (2009) Climate Change and the Media. Peter Lang. ISBN 143310460)

"Early coverage of the problem suggests that the media did not question the science underpinning the threat of global warming...From 1990 onwards, however, there developed a fashion in the Western media to attack the global warming hypothesis. Headlines such as 'More hot air than facts on global warming' (Sunday Telegraph 1994), 'The lie of global warming' (Daily Telegraph 1991), 'Global warming is a load of hot air' (Sunday Express 1991) 'Theories on Ice' (The Times Magazine 1993) and 'Experts got it wrong over global warming' (Daily Express 1991) illustrate this trend."...the Daily Telegraph offered the view that 'to many scientists, the likelihood of man-made global warming is about as credible as stories of goblins and fairies' -(Newell. (2000) Climate for Change. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 0521632501).

"UK tabloid coverage significantly diverged from the scientific consensus that humans contribute to climate change...These patterns are remarkable, as they are not consistent with recent trends documented in US and UK 'prestige press' or broadsheet newspaper reporting...When interviewees were asked to comment on this divergence, many pointed to constraints they faced as journalists and editors deriving from various political economic pressures....in the sample set only 1.8% of the news stories on climate change or global warming were written by a journalist identified as a 'science' or 'environment' correspondent or editor...quantitative content analyses of the UK tabloid press found that combined influences of contrarianism and the utilization of the journalistic norm of balance jointly contribute to informationally biased coverage of anthropogenic climate change...Divergent UK tabloid newspaper coverage of anthropogenic climate change found in this study may diminish public support for concrete greenhouse gas mitigation programs when the time for behavioral change comes...the success of future climate mitigation policies may depend significantly on these newspaper sources and their many working class readers...the journalistic norm of balanced reporting has contributed to a skewed public understanding of human contributions to climate change...it may continue to significantly contribute...to eventual public resistance to climate mitigation and adaptation plans in the UK."-(Maxwell T Boykoff and Maria Mansfield 2008 Environ. Res. Lett. 3 024002. doi: 10.1088/1748-9326/3/2/024002)

"In August 2001, the prestigious academic publishing house, Cambridge University Press, launched a book called The Skeptical Environmentalist...by Bjørn Lomborg...the book challenged popular perceptions that the global environment is getting worse...the British newspaper, The Daily Telegraph, called it "probably the most important book on the environment ever written." A review in the eminent scientific journal, Nature, denounced the book as "deeply flawed" and implicitly likened Lomborg to Holocaust deniers. -(Chen. (2003) The Jurisdynamics of Environmental Protection. Environmental Law Institute. ISBN 1585760714)

Sensationalism and misrepresentation

"Evidence for or against health risks from climate change is therefore often used selectively by parties to promote political agendas that have little to do with the health risk itself....Related to this, the public perception of health risks from climate change is filtered through media that can often tend to sensationalize stories and amplify disagreements to present polarized positions...For an example of the former, take the following headline from a recent edition of the Daily Telegraph newspaper following the release of a U.K. government report on health risks arising from climate change in Britain...Malaria warning as UK becomes warmer: The UK is to be hit by regular malaria outbreaks, fatal heatwaves and contaminated drinking water within five years because of global warming, the Government has warned the NHS...The cited U.K. report, however, actually stated...We would therefore not expect more than a very few cases of autochthonous malaria in the UK over the next 50 years. Indeed one is more likely to be struck by lightning than to get malaria from an English mosquito...In this environment, the production of clear communication of impartial, evidence-based, policy-relevant assessments becomes particularly important." -(Relman, Hamburg, Choffnes, Mack. (2008) Global Climate Change and Extreme Weather Events. National Academies Press. ISBN 0309124026)

"In December, a UK-based group, the Scientific Alliance, teamed up with the George C Marshall Institute, a body headed by the chairman emeritus of the GCC, William O'Keefe, to publish a document with the innocuous title Climate Issues & Questions. It plays up the uncertainties surrounding climate change science, playing down the likely impact that it will have. It contrasts starkly with the findings of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), the world's most reliable source of information on the effects of greenhouse gas emissions. In its last major report in 2001, the IPCC adopted an evidence-based approach to climate change and considered uncertainties on impact. It concluded that "overall, climate change is projected to increase threats to human health, particularly in lower income populations, predominantly within tropical/subtropical countries", and that "the projected rate and magnitude of warming and sea-level rise can be lessened by reducing greenhouse gas emissions". More than 2,000 of the world's leading climate experts were involved in compiling the report - the most authoritative scientific assessment to date. But today, the Scientific Alliance is holding a forum for members of the US and UK denial lobby to challenge the case for acting on the findings of the IPCC. The intention appears to be to get its retaliation in first before a meeting of climate change experts next week at the Hadley Centre, at which Sir David King will take part. Possibly more worrying is how much prominence their views are receiving in the UK media. The Daily Telegraph bizarrely used an anonymous leader on the tsunami in Asia to question the value of cutting emissions: "Whether or not this would have the effects claimed by ecologists - and the science is inconclusive - any gain would be insignificant next to the changes in temperature caused by forces outside our control." -(Robert May, Baron May of Oxford, "Under-informed, over here", guardian.co.uk)

You asserted specific "denialism" and deliberate misstatement by the newspaper. What we are left with is your opinion, and the opinion in a self-published blog by a person who is not presented as an expert on newspapers, and who has a financial interest in discrediting another newspaper in his personal blog. WP specifically does not allow such sources as reliable sources - you might wish to dispute this on RSN at some point, but I doubt you will succeed in using what you WP:KNOW as a basis for changing the rules, guidelines and policies. Collect (talk) 10:20, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

The denialism claim is supported above by Catherine Butler and Nick Pidgeon in Boyce (2009): "...The Daily Telegraph, and their Sunday edition counterparts, have remained the main sources of coverage that has denied the role of human contributions to climate change." I don't see anything about a "deliberate misstatement". I said that Owen Gaffney made the case that The Daily Telegraph altered a news article about scientific research. This isn't in dispute by any rational person, so it's probably time for you to "give it up". Viriditas (talk) 10:38, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Check ] and determine that a person who actually believes in WP rules, guidelines and policies is not "rational" is likely not a wise statement by you. Collect (talk) 10:41, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Asking you to stop beating a dead horse is not a personal attack. You may want to have someone explain that to you as well, since you seem unclear on the concept. Viriditas (talk) 10:43, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Wall of text usage does not impress me. Self published sources do not make for reliable sources. And for some odd resaon,m your claim that I am "not rational" does not impress me, nor does writing text in yellow make me think that it is I who is beating the poor horse. You might wish to remove the yellow silliness, by the way. It is distracting to anyone reading this page, and impresses no one. Collect (talk) 10:47, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

You seem to have difficulty reading this thread. 1) I've explained how the sources are reliable and are acceptable for use in this article many times in the above threads. 2) You have ignored these explanations and have refused to engage in any discussion concerning them, even after being asked multiple questions about your position. 3) I provided multiple sources supporting my position, not a "wall of text". This is called evidence, please review it. You have again, ignored those sources, preferring to distract and deny as before. To recap, you asked for a rationale, I gave you one. You asked for sources, I provided them. However, when I ask you to justify your position and to reply to my queries, I am met with stone cold silence every time. You then revert back to asking questions that you've already been given answers to previously. This is generally described as disruptive and tendentious. BTW, what was the result of the RS noticeboard discussion you instigated? Viriditas (talk) 10:57, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

You have been on notice from your RFC/U about civility. I comment you to reread it. Your posts here do not indicate that you did. Collect (talk) 11:00, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't know what you are talking about, and I have been perfectly civil. My "posts" (topical comments) indicate that you do not respond to direct questions about the topic and that you continually change the subject in every reply. Viriditas (talk) 11:05, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

My only issue is that we respect WP rules, guidelines and policies. The talk page is not the place to discuss "climate change denial" as should be reasonably clear. This is a place to discuss this article, and whether a source is valid in it. Thanks. Collect (talk) 11:34, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Rules, guidelines, and policies exist only to help further the goals of editors and to protect the site and the editors who use it from malicious intent. Rules, guidelines, and policies do not exist to be "respected", and should be discarded when they no longer serve their purpose. That's one reason rules tend to change over time. Please take a moment to review the first comment in this thread where I propose a subsection on climate change denial/misrepresentation of science. The talk page is the appropriate place to discuss these types of proposals. It should also be noted that this proposal came about due to your reversion and deletion of related material from the article, which you did not feel needed to be discussed on talk. I would hope in the future, you could get in the habit of proposing your changes, as I have, on the talk page before acting unilaterally. I hope I have set a good example for you to emulate. Viriditas (talk) 12:02, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Categories: