Talk:Gay Nigger Association of America/Archive 4

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GNAA AfD Nominations

1st | 2nd | 3rd | 4th | 5th | 6th | 7th | 8th | 9th | 10th
10 GNAA AfD nominations pool

Logs of previous VFD attempts.

April 30, 2004 – May 7, 2004 No consensus
September 2, 2004 – September 8, 2004 No consensus
September 27, 2004 – October 5, 2004 No consensus
December 25, 2004 – December 31, 2004 Discussion was moved to legacy "old VfD" page, and was never officially closed
June 30, 2005 – July 1, 2005 Discussion was improperly delisted by an unknown user
July 8, 2005 – July 14, 2005 Keep (78 to 55, under strict anti-sockpuppet measures)
October 5, 2005 Discussion was delisted as "cancelled" (this is not a normal method of closing debate)
December 15, 2005 Discussion was delisted as speedy keep with a momentary consensus to delete. Sent to Deletion Review; no consensus, "general idea is that maybe we should wait 6 months before listing it again." Note that this does not mean you should automatically list it on June 15th.

This article was previously considered for deletion on eight occasions. Most discussions have resulted in no consensus with a default to keep this article. Consult and consider these previous discussions before nominating it again. Your nomination may be seen as bad faith or putting undue stress on the AfD system.

Gay Nigger Association of America/Archive 4 received a peer review by Misplaced Pages editors, which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.

Template:FACfailed is deprecated, and is preserved only for historical reasons. Please see Template:Article history instead.

This article (or a previous version) is a former featured article candidate. Please view its sub-page to see why the nomination did not succeed.
For older candidates, please check the Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Archived nominations.

Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Gay Nigger Association of America

Mistakenly posted on Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Gay Nigger Association of America. – Extraordinary Machine 14:15, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

Should be reconsidered for FA statues and front page, as the recent article Cool (song) has lowwered standards. - JeffBurdges 12:31, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

AfD

This article has been on AfD 7 times already, each time it was kept. Stop wasting all our time. I have reverted and protected because this is clear disruption. I will list this on WP:PROT, note this on WP:AN/I and leave a note on User:Jimbo Wales page. - Ta bu shi da yu 13:48, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

I'd like to point out that the last time an AFD discussion ran to conclusion on this page, the result was clearly "no consensus", to either keep or delete. The last AFD and the one you just closed were closed early. Unless there is a consensus to keep an article I don't really see what's "disruptive" about relisting it. Demi /_C 20:11, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Guess you've never had to admin the AfD for this article. You try it. - Ta bu shi da yu 21:35, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

I tend to agree. Silly, perhaps, but not really disruptive. Those that wish to ignore the Afd are free to do so. Friday (talk) 20:21, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

And that's the whole point. This is deletion by attrition. - Ta bu shi da yu 21:35, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Eh, I agree with Demi. WikiFanatic 23:03, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Ta bu shi da you. I've voted keep on this article many times. Please consult the previous nominations for my reasoned views on it. This time, I'm considering voting delete. If it's deleted, I intend to recreate it 8 times with different content each time. Given the article's treatment on AfD so far, I dare anyone to call me on WP:POINT in that event... — David Remahl 00:13, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

I like 7, its prime, keep it that way. GNAA isn't going to be deleted, not this decade anyway. More AfDs only discredit Misplaced Pages's notion of consensus.

Here is a "modest proposal" for an AfD gidline which should fairly resolve the AfD by attrition issue:

If an article passes 5 AfDs, allow keep voters to cut&paste good keep votes from past AfDs, and pseudo-count them if the original voter never changed their mind in a later AfD.

AfDs are supposed to be a conversation, not just majority rule, so it makes sence to quote old votes, and give them "some" official weight. Ideally, the original author of that vote should drop by & endorse it, for it to have full weight, but if they don't find the AfD in time, people should still weigh the old argument.

Or you could just trust that people will just inherently vote keep after too many AfDs, which seems to have worked thus far. JeffBurdges 03:25, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Sources?

This may well be an exceedingly unpopular suggestion, but what do people say to removing whatever isn't backed up by reliable sources? Specifically, I don't see how forums are reliable sources. I know, this article is about an Internet-thing, so some may say any website is automatically a good source. So far I'd disagree with that tho- I don't see a good reason to abandon normal standards just for this article. Thoughts? Friday (talk) 23:53, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

You're absolutely right. Anything can be written on an Internet forum; it's not a reliable source. A news website, or well-regarded blog, is a reliable source. Ashibaka tock 01:39, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

It should not be removed, but it should be "langauge sanitized." If a particular part is a load of crap / hyperbole, one might find out that "langauge sanitization" deletes it, but one should have the goal of keeping information presented it.. and one should feel sad when one fails to do so.. otherwise you might not be reading the sources adequately. JeffBurdges 02:56, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

"Controversial" tag

Because of the extreme amount of dispute on this article (even by Misplaced Pages standards) I propose we add Teplate:Controversial right on the front of the article. No other article has inspired so many deletion attempts as well as good-faith Featured Article debates. "Please check the talk page before making any major changes" doesn't help when the notice is on the talk page itself. In this case I don't think the template would be inappropriate on the actual article. This might also cut down on the clueless VfD attempts. Any thoughts? --TexasDex 02:00, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Maybe we could give it a prize for surviving soo many VfDs too? :) JeffBurdges 17:00, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

I found the ContraSub template, which is meant for in-article use. I'll insert that, although I don't know why we have two separate templates for talk pages and articles. --TexasDex 05:03, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:GNAA deletion policy

I'm trying to formulate a policy for repeat AFD nominations at Misplaced Pages:GNAA deletion policy. Feel free to contribute. Firebug 03:41, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

The community rejected this policy as instruction creep, which is a valid objection IMHO. But this does not prevent "general concensus" from effectively enforcing the same policy on the GNAA page. Jimbo vaguely suggested trying to delete GNAA exactly once per year. So why not just follow this suggestion without the instruction creep? I recommend adding the following text to the top of this page, just under the list of VfDs:

December 15th is GNAA AfD day. The poor admins who must manage GNAA's potentially numerous AfDs will very probably speedy keep GNAA AfDs on any day besides December 15th. Such speedy keep are likely to survive challenges on Misplaced Pages:Deletion review too. A proper AfD procedure for GNAA is planned for December 15th, 2006. See you there!

Thoughts? No policy rules, just a statment of probable admin behavior. It reinforces its non-policyness by mentioning that such actions are subject to ordinary deletion review. And setting a date should make everyone happy. This should not impact the poll, as speedy keeps presumably count towards the poll. BTW, no polls respondents guessed December 2007. JeffBurdges 16:42, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

People should nom it whenever they like, as long as they recognize that admins hate seeing this page on AfD. Ashibaka tock Save our rectangular corners! 00:31, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Dremel Incident

"The Dremel website incident happened on October 31, 2004 and featured a pumpkin carving kit for Halloween and linked to a Goatse pumpkin image as an example of what could be achieved. GNAA members then added their logo to the pumpkin image, leading visitors to think the GNAA had hacked the Dremel website."

That's not how it went down. The dremel website was hacked by a third party after a link to the Dremel Pumpkin Carving Kit was posted on Slashdot. However, the image they linked to just happened to be on a server owned by a GNAA affiliate. We added the GNAA logo to the image, to create the effect that the website had been comprimised by us. We, however, did not actually do this. We do not know who did.

If no one has any objections, I will correct the article.

I am sure you can source this by timestamps on Slashdot posts.

--GNAA Staos 01:40, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

merge proposal

Last Measure did not create GNAA; GNAA created Last Measure. Merging is counterintuitive.

Adrian Lamo · (talk) · (mail) · 21:21, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Un-researched speculation

'The internal structure of the GNAA is unclear and some argue that they have no real structure or actual members; business is conducted in a public IRC channel and those acting in its name may simply be individuals working under the GNAA "banner".'

I changed this the "secret" to "a public IRC channel", but this sentence still feels like crap added just to weaken the article. It (outside of my change) is pure speculation, and obviously whoever added it had no information to go on. Would have deleted already but for a way to not leave a big hole. Shall I go ahead and remove it? 24.255.11.232

Yes. It's unsourced, and probably an original opinion. Ashibaka tock 05:26, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Update: similar problem, the description "psuedo-organization". More crap added to weaken the article. See this: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Gay_Nigger_Association_of_America&diff=37535516&oldid=37535431 It seems a wannabe-admin wishes to participate in bad-faith edits. Keep an eye out, this looks like it may degenerate into a puerile edit war. 24.255.11.232 04:09, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

afd

Can I please nominate this for AFD? Groups like this only spam and troll to get attention and this wikipedia article is rewarding them for their efforts.--God of War 23:42, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

No you can't. --blackman 00:01, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Trust me, GoW, don't go there. Ashibaka tock 06:38, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

No. No, no, no, no, no. It's been discussed to death, and the general consensus is that you'll have to wait, at least till around 2007, before anybody will take an AfD nomination on this article even remotely seriously. It's been tried so many times before that most of the people who watch this article will remove AfDs on sight, and rightly so. --TexasDex 07:09, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Every time this article gets an AFD, it survives and just encourages the trolls. ZachPruckowski 17:47, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Arguably many of our articles increase exposure for groups who don't deserve it. That's a negative side effect of any complete and informative encyclopedia that we just have to deal with. After all, if we don't discuss the GNAA from a neutral point of view, who else will? Deco 02:41, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Sources

Geeze, all the alleged references are attempts at press releases, IRC logs and forum pages. These are not even close to being good sources. How are we supposed to check any of these claims? Oh yeah... through original research. That this article remains amazes me. It is utterly unverifiable. --W.marsh 18:48, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Where else would one go for references on GNAA? The New York Times? Washington Post? The Economist? What kind of sources do you want? --dj28 18:58, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Good sources, like I said. That none apparantly exist says a whole lot about whether or not a topic should be in Misplaced Pages... we shouldn't start doing original research on this one topic just because a bunch of people apparently feel like it. --W.marsh 19:01, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

None of it is original research. Surely you don't want us to go through wikipedia and list supposedly "good" articles with no "good" sources, do you? Many "good topics" exist without references in old print papers. You're just using this as an excuse to undermine this article which has survived many afd attempts. --dj28 19:06, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

It's assumed that articles are written on information from good sources, references are nice but only really needed when a challenge comes up. So no, most articles out there don't need references since no one is questioning whether they're based on good sources. But that's not the case here. --W.marsh 19:08, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

"Good sources" are only needed when an admin has a grudge against a particular article. Please list what you consider "good sources," and we'll go through wikipedia and accordingly add articles which do not comply with your standards to AfD. --dj28 19:10, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Those would be bad faith nominations, most likely. Has anything approaching a reputable publication mentioned GNAA or said anything about them? Has even Slashdot (I think not }? Until then, anything said here is really original research. --W.marsh 19:16, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

They wouldn't be bad faith. Each nomination would include a source link to your list of supposedly "good sources." Yes, slashdot editors have mentioned GNAA on several occassions. Is that the standard you want to use or not? Or do you perhaps want to change the standard when those sources are provided? If you don't think this article meets your standard, help improve it or nominate it for AfD for the 10th time. You can edit this article like anyone else. --dj28 19:19, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

There are no slashdot articles, such as they are, on GNAA. I can't find any good sources for the article, which is why I'm asking here as opposed to just adding them myself. As for the rest, see Misplaced Pages:Verifiability is all I can say. If you want to nominate some articles that genuinely have no possible good sources, all I can say is that you'd be doing my work for me. --W.marsh 19:23, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

I quote Misplaced Pages:Verifiability: Were they actually there? Be careful to distinguish between descriptions of events by eyewitnesses and by commentators. The former are primary sources; the latter secondary. Both can be reliable.

All of our articles are primary or secondary and include eye-witness accounts. There are not slashdot articles on GNAA just as there aren't any slashdot articles on many things. That doesn't make GNAA any less notable. Slashdot editors have mentioned GNAA. But they mentioned GNAA on blogs and irc logs. So I guess they don't meet your standard of "good." I suggest you have this conversation on all articles which don't meet your standard of "good." Also, I'm waiting on that list of "good sources" so I can try to add them. Will you ever list them? If not, what good are you doing by bringing this up? If you don't plan on helping, nominate it for AfD again. Otherwise you're not helping at all. Thanks. --dj28 19:29, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Eh you're totally misinterpreting that, first of all you're quoting from Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources not Misplaced Pages:Verifiability. Anyway, that passage is just about understanding who a person giving information is, in a given account in a good source. Anyway, if you go further down: Posts to bulletin boards and Usenet, or messages left on blogs, are never acceptable as primary or secondary sources. Personally I don't thing argueing with you is accomplishing anything, so I'll stop, I think people can draw an appropriate conclusion from our discussion. --W.marsh 19:34, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Exactly. It isn't helping. Tell me what to fix. Edit the article. Nominate it for AfD. Do something. Or did you only come here with the intention of bitching? --dj28 19:36, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Understand Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources and add a reliable source, then. Like I said, I can't find any, that's why I'm here. --W.marsh 19:38, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Slashdot editors mentioning or talking about GNAA should be considered a primary source since we can easily verify who they are. They aren't anonymous internet posters. In that context, it shouldn't matter what medium they post on. Further, many of the sources listed are primary. It is a log of the event in action. Tell me exactly what kind of source you want to see to verify the claims and how they would be better than what is provided. --dj28 19:43, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Slashdot editors devoting an actual article to GNAA. An actual article about all the things these logs of events in action that are apparently so important. It does matter what medium they've posted in. Despite all the self-aggrandizing, no one but Misplaced Pages has devoted actual ink or meaningful space to talking about GNAA. End of story. I'm done here. --W.marsh 19:47, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Slashdot devotes articles to a particular topic, of which GNAA is not a part of. Why would they devote an article to it? That isn't even logical. You are asking for something you know cannot be provided. It's clear you only came here to complain and rant. --dj28 19:50, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

If no one cares to write an article about GNAA, as you admit, then by definition Misplaced Pages is doing original research. I'm not going to be goaded into doing the AfD now, so you can stop trying to troll me. Believe it or not I did come here to get the ball rolling towards finding reliable sources for the article. --W.marsh 19:54, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

I assumed good faith at the beginning, but now I no longer do. See the past 8 AfD nominations for the rationale of keeping this article. --dj28 19:59, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

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