Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Armbrust (talk | contribs) at 15:31, 21 September 2010 (→Performance Timeline). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

	Ronnie O'Sullivan has been listed as one of the Sports and recreation good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones Date Process Result February 21, 2010 Good article nominee Listed

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Snooker High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Snooker, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of snooker on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SnookerWikipedia:WikiProject SnookerTemplate:WikiProject SnookerSnooker High This article has been rated as High-importance on the importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. England Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject England, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of England on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.EnglandWikipedia:WikiProject EnglandTemplate:WikiProject EnglandEngland-related Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Biography: Sports and Games This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Misplaced Pages's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography This article is supported by the sports and games work group (assessed as Mid-importance). This article has been marked as needing immediate attention. Template:WP1.0

Archives

Archive 1 (2005–2009) Archive 2 (2010–)

Template:FAOL

Career prize money

This is in the infobox only, but nothing should be in an infobox that is not attested and sourced in the article. I.e. there needs to be information about this in the prose of the article, and the citation should be moved there. — SMcCandlish ‹(-¿-)› 00:43, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you entirely: good point. Extremely sexy 12:10, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Ethnicity

He is listed as having Italian descent because of his middle name "Antonio" but yet he isn't listed as having Irish descent since O'Sullivan and Ronnie are both typically Irish names and besides Antonio could be Spanish or Portuguese. I want an explanation or I'll remove the category or add both categories. Spiderone (talk) 12:39, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

His mother came from Sicily, as you can in the Personal life section. Armbrust (talk) 13:24, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

This dispute is still active, in that all information about his family and his ethnicity/background has been removed, yet he is still categorized as a Briton of Italian (but not Irish!) descent. These categories have to be removed if the article does not contain any sourced information on his familial background, which it no longer does, since having them there is an unsourced assertion that violates WP:BLP. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(ل)ˀ Contribs. 00:37, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be easy enough to re-add the fact that his mother is (or was) Sicilian? Why was it removed in the first place? Incidentally, I'm not sure if his Irish ancestry is recent or strong enough to class him as a British person of Irish descent under Misplaced Pages rules - not 100% sure about Shaun Murphy either--MartinUK (talk) 18:05, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Because the reference doesn't say she is from Sicily (This was the reference) and to make the article more focused (to reach GA status). Armbrust _Contribs 18:22, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

His father

Absolutely unbelievable that this page has no mention of his father being in jail. Given that it is mentioned in virtually every newspaper article written about him! (Mark King's mother is mentioned on his page). What a joke. 82.41.230.157 (talk) 08:17, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

The article is about Ronnie O'Sullivan not about his father. Armbrust _Contribs 08:20, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Presumably you'll be removing information about the non-notable doctor/teacher/postman/etc. parents of every other half notable celebrity with a page on wikipedia? Or is it just because O'Sullivan's father is in jail? 82.41.230.157 (talk) 08:25, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

No, but if you want you can do it. Armbrust _Contribs 08:54, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

I won't because I find it interesting to know about a person's background. I assume most people find family information interesting/instructive and this is why family backgrounds are included on most notable people's wikipedia articles. In Ronnie's case in particular it has often been suggested - by himself and others - that his temperament problems are a result of his family situation. Anyway, I am sure many more readers would be surprised or disappointed by your deletion of this information than would have been had you left it in. 82.41.230.157 (talk) 09:15, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

To be honest, it's an absolute joke as his father's jailtime has probably defined the player he has become. To not include such a thing is farcical. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.251.241.148 (talk) 00:02, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

And Misplaced Pages is not a crystal ball. Armbrust _Contribs 08:40, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

On the subject of this man's father, there's examples on here like Mark Ingram, Jr., which his father being in jail is not listed on his page rather his fathers page the Sr. This is correct because it is considered libelous information for the Jr like it is for O'Sullivan to be defamed by his father being in jail being on his page! This is the reason it was removed. Unlike Tiger Woods, who committed the infidelities it is not to be listed one day on his sons wikipedia page if he does become notable. All we can do is list his fathers and mothers name and sibilings, but not the derrogatory information about their personal lives because it is not HIM that done or did it!69.137.120.81 (talk) 02:55, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

See WP:NPF. 69.137.120.81 (talk) 03:05, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't understand why all information on his father has been removed. This is a total joke. Christopher Connor (talk) 17:47, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

It was removed, because the article was not focused enough. Article is about Ronnie O'Sullivan, not about his father, who isn't notable. (If he were he would have an own article, where this information should be.) Armbrust _Contribs 18:00, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

There is a big difference between mentioning the impact that O'Sullivan's father had on his life (which is appropriate for a biography) and simply including large chunks of biographical detail on a person other than the subject of the article who is indeed only notable by his association to the subject (which is completely inappropriate). As this is a BLP caution must be taken. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 12:52, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Agreed, but that said, that isn't justification for removal of all mention of his father. If any reliable source offered information on his father's history having an effect on Ronnie and his career as a notable person, then that was encyclopedic and should be restored. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(ل)ˀ Contribs. 00:37, 30 July 2010 (UTC) PS: The fact that Ronnie has been publicly adamant that and activistc about his father being wrongly accused and convicted is actually relevant information for this article. It was sourced, too. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(ل)ˀ Contribs. 00:39, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Would be good if someone could now restore the information on his father. It was there from the start of the article until the GA reviewer suggested it be removed (on incorrect premises), and the editors obliged. I'm sort of worried that we're even having this discussion. See search. Needs to be carefully written of course. Christopher Connor (talk) 14:01, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

I have his autobiography where there's whole chapters on this. I can put random bits in if people would finally agree. Christopher Connor (talk) 14:04, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

If it you describe it's effects on Ronnie (not just the incident), it is sourced and it is not overdetailed, then i'm fine with it. Armbrust _Contribs 14:19, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Your comments above show that you totally minsunderstand the nature of article writing and the content guidelines. "The article is about Ronnie O'Sullivan not about his father", "Article is about Ronnie O'Sullivan, not about his father, who isn't notable. (If he were he would have an own article, where this information should be.)", both used to justify erasing even mentioning O'Sullivan has a father? Rarely have I seen someone misjudge so severely. Christopher Connor (talk) 14:51, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Everybody has a father, so why should we mention, that O'Sullivan has a father? Here is text which was removed:

"O'Sullivan's father, Ronald John O'Sullivan, who owned a chain of Soho sex shops, is serving an 18-year sentence for murder on the Isle of Sheppey, having been convicted in 1992 of murdering the bodyguard of Charlie Kray, brother of the Kray twins, the previous year. The trial judge gave a recommendation that he serve 18 years due to a claimed racial element to the killing, something he denied. The elder O'Sullivan had been in a Chelsea nightclub, and according to police embarked on an unprovoked attack during which he stabbed Kray's bodyguard and his brother. In recent years, his family has claimed he acted in self-defence, but at his trial he had claimed not to have been there at all. A 2003 sentence review accepted that Ronald is not, and was not, racist, but found that the murder was a particularly vicious one and kept the 18-year term unchanged. Ronald stabbed the victim and his injured brother a considerable number of times with a knife that the prosecution stated he had brought along with him to the club. Ronnie claimed in his autobiography that his father picked up the knife from the side of the bar in the club during the course of a row over a drinks bill so as to defend himself." Armbrust _Contribs 15:09, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

The specifics of his father's crime aren't particularly relevant, the perceived impact on his professional career is. It would be best if we source something from Clive Everton or Phil Yates, since that would address concerns over the notability of what is included and also maintain some objectivity - an account from Ronnie's autobiography is going to be one-sided at best, factually inaccurate at worst. Betty Logan (talk) 15:16, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

"Everybody has a father, so why should we mention, that O'Sullivan has a father?" Because it's standard biographical info on any decent account of a person? This would apply even if the father had absolutely zero notability on his own, nevermind considering this particular case. I still can't believe you don't get this. Some sources: The Times, Independent, Telegraph, Independent, Times, BBC News, BBC News, Times, Times, Times, BBC News, Telegraph, Times, BBC News, Independent -- and so on. What's relevant is any info reported on by reliable sources in the context of Ronnie O'Sullivan. No one is suggested we use his autobio to cite facts about the case -- why would we? No, we use it to give his viewpoint, for which it would be a reliable source (other sources have also referenced his views in the bio). I despair at having to go out of my way to explain the fundamentals to people. Betty, do you support or oppose discussion on O'Sullivan Sr? We have this: Sources say O Sr had a critical role in O'Sullivan's role as a snooker player, managing him early on etc.; when he wins his first world championship, he dedicates it to his father; almost two decades after the event, he says he wants his father to be released so he can watch him play. And the response to this is: father not notable = erase all mention of father?? Christopher Connor (talk) 15:52, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Whats the problem, if there are plenty of reliable sources? Why don't you just add it to the article? As i said, i have no objection if it is properly sourced. Armbrust _Contribs 16:04, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

The problem was, or at least from my interpretation of your comments, that you didn't think his father shouldn't be mentioned, because he wasn't notable enough as you say. Indeed, from your comments it seems like you've changed your position a few times. Your latest comment was "Everybody has a father, so why should we mention, that O'Sullivan has a father?" So I provided some explanation that directly addresses your question. And in response you're now claiming there's a problem and that I should add it to the article? We were at the "should we add it" stage remember? Please stop playing games. I take it then that you do indeed after all support addition of his father? Christopher Connor (talk) 16:17, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Support, if sourced and neutral. Armbrust _Contribs 16:20, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Okay, thanks, problem resolved. Anyone feel free to add. Christopher Connor (talk) 16:24, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

I have no problem with including his father within the context of his career. His father's role in his career has been reliably documented, such as bulding him a practise room and so on. Is anyone actually opposing that though? The section as it previously existed though was an in depth account of the crime and trial which almost read like someone else's mini-biography, and that seems to have been the sticking point for its GA review. Betty Logan (talk) 16:13, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Auto racing

If he was racing as an amateur or it was some kind of celebrity guest appearance or something, then we should state that auto racing is a hobby of his. I've made this change. And someone else in an earlier thread had mentioned another hobby or two; if sourceable, they should be added with autoracing to a short paragraph in "Personal life" about hobbies.

If he was actually racing as a new professional racer, then auto racing should be a new section and expanded with additional details, with multiple sources.

— SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(ل)ˀ Contribs. 00:37, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Performance and rankings timeline needs to be templated

Whoever is/are responsible for the "Performance and rankings timeline" table, please get in touch with me directly. It would be very useful to figure out how to make this an extensible template usable in any such article. Even WP:WikiProject Darts wants it. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(ل)ˀ Contribs. 01:00, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Performance Timeline

Ronnie did not participate in the following tournaments: Shanghai Masters 2007, 2010 and Bahrain Championship 2008. It shouldn't be marked as a defeat in the opening round. If not by an white A, when by something else. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.211.83.142 (talk) 15:19, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

But he is in the draw, thus the 1R is right. Armbrust _Contribs 15:29, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

It's stated in the legend that 1R means LOSING. You can't lose if you don't participate. If you don't like the white A we have to change something else because at the moment it looks like he lost in the first round. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.211.83.142 (talk) 15:40, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

What about 1R with white background? Armbrust _Contribs 18:17, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

I like that idea. But we also have to add that to the definitons in the legend. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.196.40.152 (talk) 19:29, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

I made the changes. That topic can be closed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.211.91.156 (talk) 13:08, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages good articles
• Sports and recreation good articles
• Biography articles of living people
• All unassessed articles
• GA-Class Snooker articles
• High-importance Snooker articles
• All cue sports pages including snooker
• All snooker pages
• GA-Class England-related articles
• Low-importance England-related articles
• WikiProject England pages
• GA-Class biography articles
• GA-Class biography (sports and games) articles
• Mid-importance biography (sports and games) articles
• Sports and games work group articles
• Sports and games work group articles needing attention
• Biography articles needing attention
• WikiProject Biography articles