Misplaced Pages

Rich should be unblocked at least to comment in this discussion. I bet nobody believes that Misplaced Pages is at danger if we unblock him. -- Magioladitis (talk) 18:28, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Conditions that would satisfy X!, Kingpin13, MSGJ, and others

1. No more changing the cases of the initial letters of any templates. No more changing {{for}} to {{For}}, or changing {{silicate-mineral-stub}} to {{Silicate-mineral-stub}}, or changing {{coord missing}} to {{Coord missing}}, or anything else.
2. No automated editing at all from main account. Specifically:

1. All 'bot-like tasks, like this one, no matter how uncontroversial, to be farmed out to non-administrator accounts like Femto Bot (talk · contribs), and approved via Bots/Requests for approval.

2. Use of a dedicated non-administrator account, in accordance with AutoWikiBrowser rule of use #2, if editing at speeds like 10 edits per minute with AutoWikiBrowser.

3. Clear linkages be provided on the bot pages to the appropriate approvals through Bots/Requests for approval.

4. No altering a bots function outside of the linked approvals without approval of the change.

5. Scope and function(s) of the bot explicitly stated both in the application for approval and on the bot page.

3. A message to any bot's talk page stops the bot; 3.1 the task is not restarted until the issue is resolved. 4. No unblocking one's own bots.

Small-ish suggestion re point 2:

Merged with above.

Looking at the preceeding discussion, it should be crystal clear regarding he be fully transparent and accountable in his use of bots.

- J Greb (talk) 15:31, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

• I support the modified conditions now that the BAG approval is added. (X! · talk)  · @914  ·  20:56, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
• I have to say, one of the things which I personally find wanting is Rich's attitude. He seems very reluctant to ever admit that he's actually done anything wrong (even after slapping a maintenance template on the main page..), for example, his first unblock request showed a clear lack of remorse, and his comments on his talk page display that he doesn't really seem to appreciate what he was actually blocked for, let alone be prepared to admit that he shouldn't have done the various things which lead up to the block. However, I do agree with the conditions above. Although I'm not completely convinced they would be enough, they're all basically already in policy, so Rich should be doing most of these already.. - Kingpin (talk) 21:18, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
• I agree with the above and guess that User:Sladen would too, judging from RF's talk page. It's not really a complaint but I think RF's 'man on a mission, the only one who can possibly solve wikipedia's problems' attitude is starting to look a bit silly. I thought the unblocking was so that he could respond here, not so he could carry on with what he was doing before. Is this guy actually listening to anyone? Can someone suggest he post a short note to us mortals here on his own wp:ani section. Please :) Sf5xeplus (talk) 22:33, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

1 is redundant to 2.4

2 has nothing to do with some of its sub-conditions

2.1 goes off at a tangent

2.2 is good

2.3 is good

2.4 is good

2.5 is good

3 Is unreasonably onerous. AWB tasks will be stopped by a talk page message. Other tasks you will have to find an admin to block if I am not around - although I am likely to be for non-AWB content tasks.

3.1 Again unreasonable. This gives the other party veto - on Misplaced Pages you will find someone to oppose the tiniest changes. I will discuss, as I have with everyone (except with one editor who has been gentleman enough not to bring it up - for which my apologies), but we are talking about approved tasks here. Ninety nine times out of a hundred problems are sorted out on talk pages, but it is not reasonable to expect every one to be. A Bag member can be called if the other party thinks there is clearly a problem that a botop is refusing to acknowledge, and they have the power (or so the template documetnatin says - and templates documentation, I am informed, is the ultimate authority on Wikpedia (yes-joke)) to revoke BRFAs. There are 17 "Active" Baggers and 24 "Inactive". Or you can find an admin to block the bot (pretty easy - changing one letter got SmackBot blocked) or maybe even a 'crat who will do it on the basis of two duff diffs? (Yes another joke, but also true.)

4. Seems reasonable, given my arguments at 3.1. As long as I am allowed to remove CBM's blocks. Rich Farmbrough, 01:38, 4 October 2010 (UTC).

Incidentally I would expect those admins that zoomed to stop/block my bots to have taken the trouble to leave me a note to that effect, especially as this ANI is supposedly about communication? Well maybe they had collective amnesia, but five admins all failed to leave me a note, including the one who left a stinky edit summary in his block. Rich Farmbrough, 01:38, 4 October 2010 (UTC).

Unblocked

Rich Farmbrough has finally agreed to both participate in discussion here, and to cease doing the disruptive and unresponsive editing that got him blocked in the first place. So I've unblocked him. Wknight94 20:07, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the unblocking. - it's hard to know where to start with this one. It is more about human nature than anything else - and text communication. So lets start with Wknight94's message above.

"Rich Farmbrough has finally agreed both participate in discussion here... "

OK so this is minor, maybe, and in good faith, but the implication is that I was reluctant to join the discussion. Obviously that is the impression Wknight94 picked up, probably from something said on my talk page by my unblock request. However I was in the middle of typing a comment here when I was blocked.

• 21:01 notification of ANI
• 21:03 - 21:06 started reply
• 21:09 - blocked.

As my comment (later forwarded by Xeno, for which thanks) said "Neither the bot nor I are editing at the moment, nor will we be for some time. "

-so I wasn't exactly reluctant to "cease doing" .. "that got him blocked in the first place".

Further "disruptive and unresponsive editing" is rather jumping to conclusions, based on what others were saying.

More later as I am being pinged on my talk page (about responding here I think). Rich Farmbrough, 07:24, 1 October 2010 (UTC).

OK. I'm going to keep this short: I could write a book, but it would be TLDR - I hope the following is both informative and reassuring.

What happened? SB dates maintenance tags as it's most intensive task. It also does various minor cleanup as it goes - as people have said pretty unexceptional.

One of the features of templates - indeed all wikilinks - is that they are not simply literals but a minor grammar in their own right for example:

____ __ _ __ :____ __ _ __ Template____ __ _ __ :____ __ _ __ Citations____ __ _ __ needed____ __ _ __ is a perfectly good link to {{Citations needed}}. Particularly when SB's regexes were hand crafted for each template (back then merely 1000 , now well over 2000 counting redirects) dealing with this complexity meant canonicalisation of template names was the only way to go. (I thought dating a few templates was going to be trivial when I started.) Therefore standard functionality is to replace the clean up template names with a clean version, following redirects. This also has the benefit that the number of different possible clean up templates left after a run is 569 (!) rather than four or five times that number. It also means that the template is capitalised - an "arbitrary but intelligent" decision I made - yes I know algol coders, C coders, perl hackers just love lower case - and I have been all of those things - but for someone who has never coded it seems to me that the capital says "Here is a new thing starting that is somewhat like a sentence." - and it is not a great leap from {{Citation needed|reason=this seems unlikely|date=July 2009}} to "Citation needed, because this seems unlikely, request added July 2009" (Incidentally anyone looking at http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:Citation_needed&hidetrans=1&hidelinks=1 right now will see six articles that appear to redirect to Citation needed - these are almost certainly articles that have had the redirect placed at the top and the article text left in place - normally I would go and fix them, but I am being "chided" for not writing here as a priority.) Having canonicalised the templates - which - only takes (569 + a few) rules, dating them is simple - provided that they haven't already been dated, don't have an invalid date don't have "date" mis-spelled (SB will pick up "fate" but not "jate" - that is left for some poor human drudge to do - as being a very unlikely mispelling SB is pretty conservative to avoid errors, similarly it will pick up "date=Spetember" and correct it to September but "date= Josh is ghey" will simply get over-written with the current month and year) - so another 569 rules for the basic dating and a few hundred to deal with specials like "As of". Anyway some of the minor cleanups SB picked up were related to templates in wide use that either had oodles of redirects or were moved. Again pretty unexceptional. Foolishly on 6th Spetember (or September if you prefer) I added the Cite templates to this list - this was foolish because cites are an area where "angels fear to tread" much like dates and MoS - I have been foolish enough to contribute to MoS too. Having said that it was foolish, it wasn't mind-numbingly stupid, despite what others may think, I had been pleasantly surprised not to receive negative feedback on other changes, and there are a surprising number of redirects to , for example {{Cite web}} - 21 in fact. That's 21 templates - not 21 pages, the number of pages is 12,118 and the number of actual uses will be higher still. Moreover I knew that removing those four templates would be fairly trivial. So what was the response? Were seven different kinda of hell unleashed upon my talk page? Find out in the next thrilling episode. Rich Farmbrough, 01:51, 2 October 2010 (UTC).

I get the impression that you think the only reason you were blocked, or that people are concerned, is this recent problem with SmackBot's capitalisation, which I see this more as being the last straw. I think the underlying problems are: You ignoring bot policy, by running unapproved bots; running bots on your own account; not responding to concerns, which you are also expected to do as an administrator, but instead you blank messages, ignore concerns, claim to be too tired (even claim that you're always too tired), you even seem to play word games. These are the problems which need to be addressed, since they are what lead to problems such as the template capitalisation. It's no good just dealing with the result of these problems, as we know (from prior experience with you in regard to bots) that all that happens is problems arise again. This isn't a one-off mistake. That said... Looking at what you say above, it mostly seems to be explaining how the task works, that's nice, but really the question is can you prevent SmackBot from changing the capitalisation of all templates (not just the cite templates or whatever). You could maybe even use a regex find/replace after the other changes are made to effectively "revert" any capitalisation changes made (but before actually saving to the wiki)? - Kingpin (talk) 05:36, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

The point of explaining how the task works - which is pretty deadly dull - is to lay the ground work. Understand, for example, that powerful though AWB is, it is an application, not a programmers framework like Pywikipedia. SmackBot's rulebase runs to 750k+ of XML - let me find out how many regexes that is - 5067 rules plus some "advanced" rules. The suggestion you make above might be workable - while I try to keep the rules as simple as possible, there may be an elegant solution, but on the face of it I would have to pull apart the redirect consolidation rules and have a separate one for "Sentence case" and "lower case", and the same would apply to any specific rule - since there are about 2500 redirects and some hundreds of other rules this would mean a massive increase in the rulebase (possibly more than doubling it). I outlined what is easy and what is hard to change, on my talk page, along with the benefits. And I really don't hear a clamour for {{infobox... There are two reasons I find commenting here tiring: one is the fact that every word is hostage to fortune - as shown in your comment. And indeed every edit or lack of an edit: - I don't know whether its funny or sad to have people counting my edits between being unblocked and starting to comment here. The suggestion that it would have been better for the project to leave redlinked categories on a hundreds articles than to keep the ravening hordes of ANI waiting - especially when commenting on the volume of text here, let alone the 50k or so on my talk page was likely, and still is likely, to take some time, may have some merit, but I can't see it. More later. Rich Farmbrough, 13:02, 2 October 2010 (UTC).

This reads a bit like "Smackbot is too big to be maintainable". If that's the case, break Smackbot up into small pieces running on separate bots that are individually auditable. If the answer is that individual smaller tasks would mean loosing the opportunity to discreetly make whitespace/capitalisation changes otherwise deemed without merit, then that's actually a positive; the minor changes brought your activities to a head—as Kingpin mentions (and I'll reiterate for the explicit avoidance of doubt) there is a wider general problem; which is one of interaction (acting on feedback, not disputing/arguing it; and participating in discussion to a closure). —Sladen (talk) 14:58, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

Sorry but here (and on my talk page) you are plain wrong about software maintainablity.

• (Citation+style|Cleanup-references|Cleanup-citation|Ref-cleanup|Citationstyle|Citation-style|Refstyle|Reference+style|Reference-style|Cleanup-refs|Citestyle|Cleanrefs|Refclean|Refsclean|Source+Style|Sourced+wrong|Ref-style|Refcleanup)

is longer than your proposed

• (clean(up)?-?(ref(erences|s)|citation)||(cit(ation|e)|ref(erence)?|source?)-?(tyle|clean(up)?)|sourced+wrong)

But it is also more maintainable and more readable

Your version

1. Has errors of coding
2. Has errors of design
3. Is hard to add to
4. Is hard to remove items from
5. Has no discernible performance benefits, and maybe performance costs (although I do agree that this is "in this case" not critical, I'm fed up with people saying "don't worry about performance" as a blanket statement when we have literally hundreds of fantastic servers worth millions of dollars which time out serving pages, yet my little desktop, encumbered as it is with the world's worst operating system, runs most of the software I write (pace infinite loops) before I can blink, or at least IO bound. I was running SmackBot - and everything else on a skip-rescue PC until about 18 months ago.)
6. Is less readable

It is also very very clever - and I am not being sarcastic. In fact I am being a little peacocky, because it is exactly the sort of regex I was using until I simplified and automated. And it caused a number (not necessarily a lot) of problems, picking up incorrect templates.

(See now, this has taken me over half an hour to write, maybe I'm slow, maybe I'm just being careful what I write - and maybe other people spend as long and as much care on what they write, but I certainly see evidence that some of them don't read what I say, and just bash of a few hundred words at top speed to express their feelings. But I have probably already spent about 4 hours on this thread, let alone my talk page. And I am being accused of "not responding" - I know there are subjects here I haven't even broached, and I have made it clear that it will take time to get to them - anyone who can't wait - well I would offer an informal reply on my talk page - but it would only get quoted back out of context here -as has already happened.)

Rich Farmbrough, 08:37, 3 October 2010 (UTC).

At the risk of putting words into Rich Farmbrough's mouth, I'm going to respond to something Kingpin13 wrote: that RF has claimed "to be too tired (even claim that you're always too tired)" -- only because it sounds true. There seems to be a familiar pattern to the last chapter of the career long-term Wikipedians: increasing lack of patience with others, obsession with details (which may appear to be WikiLawyering), & an increasing weariness with contributing or the discussion which follows contributions. The bastards finally wear the dedicated & selfless volunteers down. Now if this is truly what is happening here, then the only advice I can offer to Rich (I say "only" because I honestly don't have a better solution & wish there was one) is to simply cut back on what you do. If running certain bots on Misplaced Pages is getting to be more of a pain than it is a joy, then stop doing it. Misplaced Pages can survive without all of the bots being operated here, believe it or not; & if I'm wrong, it's likely someone else will pick up the slack. If someone doesn't, the resulting carcass will get preserved, & another group will try to resurrect the online encyclopedia with a slightly different set of rules of operation. And I'm writing this because I, too, feel tired with Misplaced Pages, just like Kingpin13 says RF claims to be. And after I finish the projects on my plate here (i.e., a few groups of articles & upload a few PD images), I'm going to drop my involvement here even more. Or if one of these leads I'm chasing gets me back into the job market, maybe sooner. -- llywrch (talk) 06:45, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

llywrch is right - but I don't blame the "Aha! I have a diff... " brigade. "I too was once as you." (Yes that's (self-deprecating) humour, not being patronizing.) Rich Farmbrough, 08:37, 3 October 2010 (UTC).

Well, take time to consider my advice. Maybe if enough experienced Wikipedians say "I'm burned out, so I'm quitting" the PTB may decide that it would be better for the Wikimedia projects to allocate resources to retaining veteran editors than increasing the the pool of Crowdsourcers in places like India. The idea is to create a quality encyclopedia, not to recruit every Tom, Dick & Hari to make questionable edits to Misplaced Pages. -- llywrch (talk) 22:56, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Changes to cite template

I have just discovered that, without any discussion, Rich made significant changes to the Template:Cite web. Specifically, while we were complaining about his bot, he changed the template examples from lower case to upper case. Since this was his response to complaints on his page, and since his deleting the comments on his talk page without responding to our comments is what started this whole discussion, I think that these changes need special attention.

• 22:21, 21 September 2010 Start of "Could you not capitalize citation template in the future?"
• 15:49, 26 September 2010 Start of "cite vs Cite"
• 12:47, 27 September 2010 Rich says that the bot is no longer changing "cite" to "Cite"
• 18:41, 27 September 2010 I complain again because the bot is still making the changes
• 18:42, 27 September 2010 Rich changes the case of the first character in the Template:Cite web examples
• -- There are additional comments in both threads
• 20:29, 28 September 2010 Rich blanks the talk page without responding to anyone since
  • 15:19, 26 September 2010 in the 1st thread, and
  • 12:47, 27 September 2010 in the 2nd.
• 20:54, 28 September 2010 This ANI discussion was started by me.

It was very difficult to step back through his contribution log. It appears that on Sept 28, he made well over 5,000 edits. (Perhaps over 100,000. And all with AWB. It is totally unbelievable that the admins allow this. Link to contribution log so no one else will have to search for it.)

As a result of this "new" information, I am requesting others to comment before I simply undo his uh, changes, to the template. I for one do not like them. For another, I think this was an underhanded slap in the face. He didn't even have the courtesy to mention this on his talk page when two groups of people were complaining about the same subject. He also did not mention it in any of the other discussions since. Q Science (talk) 01:08, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

It's obviously been established above that he has no consensus for the capitalisation changes, so I say change them back. Strange Passerby (talk • c • status) 01:50, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Just revert Q. Rich Farmbrough, 08:02, 3 October 2010 (UTC).

ok reverted Note there's one reason why none of the fields are capitalised, and that is that non-bot editors can enter them without having to press shift key. Clearly the first field could be an exception, and changed by bots later. There are many arguments, it probably didn't need changing - anyway continue that debate on relavent page.Sf5xeplus (talk) 12:31, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

• I stalk Rich's talk page, but even now, I still fail to understand why some editors object so much to capitalisation. The typical reason seems to be they are immaterial and thus unnecessary. Whilst I am not sure why he changes the capitalisation, it makes not a jot of difference to anything, whether in the smaller or the larger scheme of things. Our servers recognise and resolve both. The important thing I see is that SmackBot is providing an invaluable service with all the detritus it picks up. This business about capitalisation should be allowed to overshadow the huge contributions (whether in terms of load or in types of small changes) by Rich and his bots. --Ohconfucius 05:08, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
  • The question is indeed, why does he do it? Imagine a page with all cite templates in lower case. RF comes along, changes them all to uppercase. I add a new cite, using the edit box cite functionality. This by default add cites in lowercase. We now have, thanks to RF's unnecessary edit, an article where some of the cites are in uppercase, some in lowercase. Everything still works, but we get less consistency for no good reason at all... Fram (talk) 07:42, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
    • The great thing is, being only visible in the read mode makes them totally inconsequential. Not worth busting a blood vessel over it, IMHO. --Ohconfucius 09:35, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
      • Totally inconsequential, but a nuisance when you notice an article on your watchlist being updated by an RFbot. You get tons of "differences" which consist only of meaningless spacing or capitalization, and to find what was actually changed (usually, admittedly, improved) takes a lot more work than it should do. Fram (talk) 09:38, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
        • In their defence, the changes should happen only once - once the page has been spaced and template tagged to the bot's satisfaction it should make no further edits ? Sf5xeplus (talk) 18:02, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

"This business about capitalisation should be allowed to overshadow the huge contributions" I'm not sure if you're suggesting we should let him continue with these disputed changes (which makes zero sense to me), or if we should "cut him a break" as long as he doesn't do it going forward. You have to keep in mind that this ANI would not have come to be had Rich stopped making these changes after being asked several times. –xeno 12:59, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm not suggesting that Rich ignore the talkpage complaints; au contraire. Of course he should be transparent with the rationale for the capitalisation changes too. If I understand correctly just what Rich he has programmed his bot to do, I'd say it combines a large number of inconsequential changes which would otherwise never be made with jobs such as tag-dating. One way forward is perhaps he will program his bot with more consequential tasks (such as date format alignment or other style fixes), so that the chances of there being only inconsequential edits is further reduced. Ohconfucius 14:21, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

The capitalization changes aren't merely inconsequential but also undesired. –xeno 14:22, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

FYI re: cleanup template capitalization

FYI WP:AWB does cleanup template ucfirst capitalization in-house (see Misplaced Pages talk:AutoWikiBrowser/Bugs#autotag makes disputed capitalization changes), so Rich is at the mercy of his tools. –xeno 16:31, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Even if AWB does it automatically, operators are still fully accountable for actions the script takes. The warning is on top of Huggle, Igloo, AWB, etc. (X! · talk)  · @131  ·  02:08, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Talk page disruption by Born2cycle

Born2cycle (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) has been soapboxing all day at Talk:Libertarianism. Now he is admittedly disrupting the talk page by hiding other editor's pertinent comments, with the edit comment "Fine, I can play this stupid game too. Carol's comment about UNDUE also applies to scope... hide it too" which shows it to be an intentional WP:POINT violation. Yworo (talk) 03:55, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

This is a misunderstanding (yet another I've been having with Yworo, but it's hard to work out differences when he deletes your comments from his talk page and requests that you not post there again) and refuses to continue discussion and answer questions in discussions he starts on my talk page.

1. That hide referenced above with the poorly chosen words in the edit summary was in compliance with a decision made by some editors earlier in the day and subsequent hides were made in enforcing that decision.

   The decision: Talk:Libertarianism#General_warning_regarding_disruption

2. As a result of that decision, you can see entire sections hidden on Talk:Libertarianism towards the bottom that say, "Discussion of Topic or Scope during the period 1 October 2010 - 1 April 2011".
3. A bit earlier I wanted to respond to an earlier discussion about what different sources indicated, and I found it to be hidden/closed not for the agreed upon reason, so I had to unhide it before I added my comments. Then Yworo deleted my comments. Is that acceptable?
4. As to the section I hid, is filing an ANI really necessary? When I disagreed with a hide, I just reverted it.
5. I'm disappointed that Yworo escalated to ANI without discussing his concerns with me first,. I suggest Yworo take a break, and then return open to working out differences on our talk pages before escalating to ANI or elsewhere. I'm confident we can work this out, except he unfortunately is apparently in a "battle" frame of mind, as made evident by this wikilawyering trick to accuse me of WP:POINT because of my poor choice of words in an edit summary comment. That is, if I had just commented "hiding per decision about hiding discussions about article scope", there could be no technical complaint.
6. Since we're here, any assistance would be appreciated. --Born2cycle (talk) 04:32, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I made that particular revert (3) because you removed the {{hab}} at the bottom of the collapsed section but not the {{hat}} at the top, hiding the entire rest of the talk page from the {{hat}} down. That's not the disruptive behavior I was talking about, which I very clearly indicated. However, the thread was collapsed for valid reasons and you shouldn't have been adding to it in any case. Still, you seem to be attempting to distract from the focus from my actual complaints. Yworo (talk) 04:45, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

Really? It seems to me that you discovered and corrected that problem later (thanks for fixing that, by the way, though I still don't understand what I did wrong because you can see both hat and hab removed in the diff of my change).

Note the reason you gave for the edit summary (at 19:36) for the diff in (3) when you deleted my comments: "Undid revision 388214486 by Born2cycle (talk) discussion was closed)". Seems pretty clear to me.

Your edit to fix something by adding a hab occurred 13 minutes later at 19:49 with edit summary, "by removing the {{hab}} but not the {{hat}}, you collapsed the entire rest of the page, please pay attention to what you are doing".

What are your actual complaints? That I hid a section for discussing article scope in concert with the decision of some others (including you, apparently, because you implemented it too) to hide sections like that (see below)? If that's sufficiently disruptive to warrant an ANI, why not mention that you and Fifelfoo and everyone else who agreed with this is being disruptive too? Or is it because the comment in my edit summary indicated I was complying with the decision in order to make a point? Pardon me for disrupting you with my edit summary comments. How is that disruption? You couldn't instead put a friendly reminder about WP:POINT on my talk page? Is this really worth an ANI? Is this not WP:HARASSMENT?

Though I would not have filed an ANI for it, since we're here, I thought involved admins might want to look at your deleting of other users' comments, your ignoring or refusing to answer good faith questions (which is characteristic of WP:TEDIOUS), and refusal to work out disagreements on your talk page as actual disruption, since you're the one raising this ANI, which sure feels like disruptive harassment to me, especially considering the time and effort it takes to defend and explain my behavior. --Born2cycle (talk) 13:22, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

On 1 October 2010 I boldly instituted a general warning regarding the disruption caused by the continual revisiting of topic and coverage. The warning is in place until 1 April 2011, six months is a reasonable period after which to revisit topic and coverage. Two remedies were provided for: hiding threads to immediately shut down disruption, or taking the matter to AN/I as disruptive user conduct. The article has been through a very large number of RFCs and extensive discussions, all of which have supported the current broad topic and coverage. Attempts to change the topic or to narrow the coverage have been rejected as against the consensus of the article's editors. As "I didn't hear that" revisiting of achieved consensus were continual, and disruptive, I generally warned article editors, so as to allow editing and WEIGHTing discussions on the current article. Feel free to sanity check this, but imho, it shuts down the disruption without preventing editing or content disagreement within the current scope, and six months is a decent time to wait to revisit topic consensus after six months of disputation over what the scope should be. Thanks, Fifelfoo (talk) 04:41, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

• Born2cycle's point 3 is correct. I boldly hid a large body of text because it appeared to have (imho) descended into battleground mentality. Hiding this text was was not connected with any breaking the warning about topic or scope. Fifelfoo (talk) 05:02, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

Since I was also accused (multiple times, not just in this ANI) for "soapboxing", I should also point out that I have no idea what this is about. I've read and reread WP:SOAP (including 2. Opinion pieces) and cannot for the life of me understand how that applies to anything I've ever posted anywhere in Misplaced Pages, much less "all day long" yesterday at Talk:Libertarianism. I mean, I don't deny having my own views and biases (who doesn't?), but I try very hard to adhere to WP:NPOV, especially with respect to how material is presented in the article, and so take some offense at these accusations. So, if someone can explain this to me, by citing my exact words (should be easy enough since I supposedly did it "all day long") and quoting whatever criteria in WP:SOAP that supposedly corresponds to my allegedly inappropriate behavior, and explaining how it applies, I would appreciate it. Otherwise, I think we have to conclude that this is just yet another form of WP:HARASSMENT. --Born2cycle (talk) 14:04, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

You added a comment to a discussion marked closed. Any editor may revert the addition of a comment to a discussion marked closed. Apparently I didn't scroll down enough and missed the second comment outside of a collapsed discussion. My apologies, that was a mistake.

As to your demands for answers, I repeatedly pointed out that I considered the whole scope argument, especially the "just libertarianism" and cat arguments, to be soapboxing. It was soapboxing, and all the threads containing those arguments have been collapsed. I don't have to answer soapboxing. Yet you kept harassing me to answer your soapbox questions after I made clear that I wasn't going to debate the "logic" of your soapboxing.

That soapboxing is major part of the disruption that I intended to report here, which is why I mentioned it first. Even after the agreement not to discuss scope, you brought up your scope argument in the middle of one of my discussions about definitions of libertarianism from sources, in an obvious attempt to disrupt my discussion thread. When you became frustrated that your soapboxing was being collapsed and wasn't achieving the effect you intended, you started to uncollapse threads and post less than civil comments. How is that not a pattern of disruption? Anybody who goes and reads the talk page will be able to identify your voluminous comments as primarily soapboxing. Yworo (talk) 14:23, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

Born2cycle's edit summary, "Fine, I can play this stupid game too", shows an unwillingness to work cooperatively with other editors. He should accept the results of three recent RfCs and stop pushing his own POV about how the article should be written. TFD (talk)

Born2cycle also participated in the POV-fork of Libertarianism created at Libertarian, making these three edits to the forked article: , , . Of course, primary responsibility for that POV-fork remains with Darkstar1st, who actually replaced the longstanding redirect with the POV-fork . Yworo (talk) 14:38, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

yworo accuses others of hiding comments, yet he tried to hide an entire section which received 100+ edits in the span of a day http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Libertarianism&action=historysubmit&diff=388148762&oldid=388148380, including many by yworo. he has also reported me for hiding his 2 word comment "just so" as off topic, yet now that entire section was collapsed. Darkstar1st (talk) 14:59, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

"which received 100+ edits" That's a serious exaggeration. It received between 20 and 25 comments, and it wasn't particularly productive. If you disagree, please summarize the conclusion of the discussion and precisely how it contributed to the content or structure of the article. What was the outcome? Yworo (talk) 15:18, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

Your collapse of "just so" was directed at a specific editor (myself) for no reason other than I dared to question your turning Libertarian into a POV-fork of Libertarianism. It had no justification. The later collapse of the whole thread was done based on the agreement not to discuss scope. If you'd collapsed the whole thread for that reason, it might have been justified. Collapsing a single editor's two word comment had no justification and was clearly a disruptive WP:POINT violation, and you edit warred to restore it after I reverted it. Yworo (talk) 15:23, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

the whole thread was disruptive, my edit was later restored as well as the rest of the thread being collapsed. Darkstar1st (talk) 16:39, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

That doesn't justify your collapsing a single comment of a single editor, replying to an established thread that was active at the time. Yworo (talk) 18:09, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

very well, i apologize for removing "just so", being from the ysa, i didn't realize it meant "agree", i assumed it was some kind of taunt of misplaced comment. may wind of a 1000 camels, fill your sails! Darkstar1st (talk) 18:26, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, Yworo, I know it is your opinion that much of what I type is soapboaxing because you disagree with me, which apparently you use to rationalize your ignoring of much of what I'm say and ask you. As a contrast to how discussions with me go when someone else is equally skeptical but willing to cooperate, see this discussion with John K on his talk page. --Born2cycle (talk) 16:02, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

Born2cycle, this is an encyclopedia that is supposed to present a mainstream view of subjects. Obviously your view is fringe, not that there is anything wrong with that, but what is wrong is that you try to inject fringe views into articles. TFD (talk) 03:15, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

TFD, thank you for stating this. That's quite the accusation (and is at the root of the harassment, I believe, because everything I post seems to be interpreted through this "he has a fringe view" lens by a few of you, and not taken seriously, and often ignored).

So, please identify, as clearly and specifically as you can, for the sake of others reading this if not for me, the view of mine that you believe is so fringe that it should not be represented in (or "injected into") Misplaced Pages articles.

Also, please identify enough instances of me doing this (to establish a problematic pattern sufficient to bring to ANI) where you believe I was doing so, and explain how that behavior exemplifies inappropriately injecting this fringe view. Also, if it's an example of me arguing that that the scope of an article should be reduced to be not about a general use of the term in question but about a more specific topic because the more specific use is primary please explain why this is an example of me trying to inject my alleged fringe view rather than applying the Cat specific/general argument (Cat is about the specific commonly used use of the term, domestic cat and not about the general use referring to the family that includes lions and tigers), and how it's not just me upholding WP:PRIMARYTOPIC as I consistently have done at WP for over five years, including recently at Talk:Stockman (Australia) (also discussed here). If you are unable or unwilling to do this, I request you withdraw this accusation for being without basis, and agree to not bring it up again. --Born2cycle (talk) 16:34, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Even I can do that, the fringe view that TFD refers to is the view that left-libertarianism is not part of the topic of libertarianism proper, which is contradicted by numerous mainstream sources, as can be seen from the many provided sources on Talk:Libertarianism. When you have abandoned using sources and are reduced to arguing about "just libertarianism" and "cats" to make your point, it becomes clear that you have no sources that explicitly state what you assert. Bringing your "pet" soapbox (pun intended) to AN/I may not have been the smartest move, either. Yworo (talk) 16:52, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't know what you mean by "libertarianism proper", especially in the context of deciding Misplaced Pages article WP:TITLE and scope, an editorial issue that is almost never determined by what sources "explicitly state". --Born2cycle (talk) 22:21, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

As to the specific accusation that the view that left-libertarianism is not part of the "libertarianism proper" (whatever that means), can you identify any prominent individuals or organizations that are associated with left-libertarianism AND are identified as being libertarian? For example, in any of the following WP libertarian categories (including their subcats), which, if any, individual or organization members are also associated with left-libertarianism? Category:Libertarians, Category:Libertarianism in the United Kingdom, Category:Libertarian organizations based in the United States, Category:Libertarian think tanks.

Note: this is typical. Someone makes a claim, I question it with specific questions, and it's ignored, sometimes for being "soapboxing". Accordingly, I don't expect them to address this point either, but would be pleased if they did. --Born2cycle (talk) 17:01, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

So, you're going to continue with scope discussions, both on the article talk page and here, even though it's been agreed by consensus that there will be no more such discussions until April? How is that not soapboxing? Yworo (talk) 18:19, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, North, but I do slip once in a while and so I can't agree that my conduct has been exemplary. But I sure try, and thank you for recognizing that. I wish certain others would...

And thanks for reminding us that the the accusation of "soapboxing" was also inappropriately leveled at you, which illustrates the "shoot first ask questions later (if at all)" approach which some are employing here. They need to be made to understand that when someone attempts to explain a perspective with which they disagree, that is not soapboxing. Building WP:CONSENSUS at Misplaced Pages is all about WP:CIVIL discussion, and trying different arguments per WP:TENDENTIOUS ("bring better arguments"), which is what they keep trying to suppress with their soapboxing and "fringe view" accusations.

Achieving consensus with someone who refuses to give serious consideration to the arguments presented, but is instead focused on the suppression of discussion (deleting comments, hiding comments, refusing to answer questions, requesting comments not be made on their own user talk page, baseless accusations of "soapboxing", harassing filings of ANIs, etc. - evidence for all of which has been provided above with respect to the filer of this ANI), is not possible. If anything needs to be addressed here, it's that. --Born2cycle (talk) 16:37, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

• Yworo continues to interpret my posts through a "he has a POV" lens, making snide remarks accordingly, etc., here. All I said was, "that seems different ", and Yworo responded, "Different from what you would like?" What does this have to do with what I would like? What's the point of even saying that? I've asked him before to please stop trying to read between the lines - there is nothing there.

  Please comment on content and not about users, Yworo. --Born2cycle (talk) 22:44, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

• Yworo and Fifelfoo are not the only ones trying to suppress genuine WP:CIVIL discussion at Talk:Libertarianism that seeks to improve the article (which many agree is currently a mess) through WP:CONSENSUS. Here is an example from User:Snowded. How can this kind of commentary -- "You really have to stop this you know,...", "desperate attempts" -- be discouraged? --Born2cycle (talk) 15:08, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

And I stand by it. You and a few other editors are refusing to accept a clearly establish position and keep raising the same issue again and again in different forms. it is disruptive and it smacks of desperation. The matter has been discussed to death and a conclusion reached. Your simply don't like it, so continue to attempt to impose your definition of Libertarianism on the article and obviously hope that sooner or later other editors will be worn down by your persistence and give in. Personally I think you need a topic ban from the subject. --Snowded 15:21, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

I second the idea of a topic ban from articles related to libertarianism for Born2cycle. Yworo (talk) 00:09, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, everyone who disagrees with User:Snowded should be topic banned. That would be a novel way to establish WP:CONSENSUS with regard to how to improve the article. Thanks for establishing that you too have the attitude that "he has a POV different from mine so I can just ignore or discount what he's saying and do everything I can to suppress him" (not that you ever said that, just that you respond to my posts consistent with that view). Note that my follow-up question was ignored and is likely to remain unanswered. It's this attitude that is ultimately responsible for over 5 years of turmoil and no consensus at Libertarianism and Talk:Libertarianism (just count the archives). You can't reach consensus when people refuse to participate in discussion and don't even want to understand what others are trying to say. --Born2cycle (talk) 15:39, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Very good. I think the article would be tremendously improved if we were clear about what the terms mean when we use them.

This is a very challenging topic because there is no consistent use of meaning in reliable sources. Tertiary sources fall back on a very general definition, and then tend to invent terms like right and left libertarianism to distinguish among the strands (but even there different tertiary sources mean different things when they refer to, say, propertian Karl Hess as being a left-libertarian while anti-propertian Chomsky is referred to as a left-wing libertarian). But primary and secondary sources tend to just use "libertarian", so you have to read the source and infer what is meant by "libertarian" in each context to understand. There are understandable concerns that doing so is violating WP:OR. Still, WP:OR also recommends, "Passages open to multiple interpretations should be precisely cited or avoided. ". Well, that applies to almost everything referring to libertarians or libertarianism considering the disparate uses of those terms, especially considering usage before and after the 1950s, and, to a certain extent, within and outside the U.S., but there are no clean/distinct chronological or geographic lines of usage. This is why this is so difficult and controversial. But it's much worse because many editors of this article don't seem to understand and appreciate this problem.

I can say more, but discussions about the article like this should be occurring at the talk page, not here. But they're not occurring at the talk page because a small but vocal minority keeps trying to suppress discussion by those with whom they apparently perceive to have an ideological disagreement. I'm hoping some very experienced administrator can help us out. Again, this has been going on for more than five years which anyone can see by perusing the archives. To suggest that any single editor is the problem here is completely missing the point. --Born2cycle (talk) 16:32, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Proliferation of Disruptive Comment Hiding/Deleting

Something that is disruptive is the recent proliferation of comment closing and hiding at Talk:Libertarianism. For example, yesterday a previously uninvolved editor, S. Rich, dropped by and left some sage advice, but today nobody can see it, because that section has been hidden. This is but one example of the kind of indiscriminate comment hiding going on. Surely there is a better and less disruptive way. I hope an admin can address this too since it's indicative of the problematic behavior on that page. And, no, I'm not defending the restarting of that RfC, just the way it was closed, and hidden. If this was an isolated case I would just address it there, but since it's only one example, I think the bigger issue needs attention. Thanks. --Born2cycle (talk) 16:32, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

And yet another incident of comment deletion just occurred from the filer of this ANI, User:Yworo, alleging "not a forum". Even if it was a violation, how about warning the anon IP? But it's NOT a violation, and so was properly reverted by Siafu ("restore anon's comment: it IS about the article itself, whether you think it's a good question or not. "Not a forum" does not apply, and we've had quite enough talk page misbehavior here already").

I request that everyone involved with these indiscriminate and disruptive hiding/deleting of comments at Talk:Libertarianism be warned that this practice is intolerable. Given his filing of this ANI against my behavior, I'm probably not the right person to put a warning on Yworo's talk page. --Born2cycle (talk) 00:40, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

A clearly rhetorical question in all bold also posted to Talk:Sokal affair? You've got to be kidding. You are welcome to respond to it, but I guarantee you that was a drive-by, not a serious attempt to start a discussion related to improving the article. Deleting it was the correct action. Yworo (talk) 00:45, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

"Editing – or even removing – others' comments is sometimes allowed. But you should exercise caution in doing so, and normally stop if there is any objection." For the record, I object to the deleting or hiding of any talk page comments that are not blatant violations of policy. If this was an isolated incident, that would be another matter.

It's true that WP:FORUM states that "Material unsuitable for talk pages may be subject to removal per the talk page guidelines.", but WP:TPG says nothing about deleting a comment simply because it's a bolded rhetorical question, explicitly or implicitly.

In short, I think a few of you have been trigger happy with the deleting/hiding of others' comments, which is why I started this subsection. --Born2cycle (talk) 02:48, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

And I think you're developing quite a talent for Wikilawyering. Yworo (talk) 03:11, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't file frivolous ANIs. --Born2cycle (talk) 05:05, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Several at that article have been violating talk page guidelines by deleting or moving other people's comments while claiming to be implementing the policies that they are violating. Other policies /guidelines refer to TALK PAGE GUIDELINES. And the talk page guidelines roughly say don't delete other people comments, but with a list of exceptions. And the supposed justification for the deletions were not on that list. Just because I claim that what somebody wrote on a talk page violates the wp:notAForum guideline does not mean that I get to delete what they wrote.

(I know that the specific case here involves collapsing vs. deletion)

North8000 (talk) 12:11, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Well, it seems that the IP was a sockpuppet and the comment was removed multiple times by admins. So I guess my action was correct and your complaint about it was not. Yworo (talk) 14:01, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

This is like getting off for killing someone in the wild west because it turned out that that person was wanted dead or alive, but not knowing that at the time he was shot.

Unless you knew the IP was a sockpuppet when you first deleted the comment, your action was not correct. Trigger-happy just got lucky, this time. --Born2cycle (talk) 18:47, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Not at all. I could tell from the tone of the comment that it was a drive-by. We also have a regular sockpuppet of a banned user from the area of the world the IP was from. I don't have to explain all my reasoning to you every time I make an edit. I made a judgment call based on more data than I mentioned, and I was correct, and it wasn't chance or luck that I was. Yworo (talk) 23:55, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Once again, you're needlessly personalizing the discussion ("I don't have to explain all my reasoning to you every time I make an edit"). Why single out me? I wasn't even the one who reverted your edit.

When you're doing something as serious as deleting someone's comments from an article talk page, you better have a better reason than "not a forum" (all you indicated in the edit summary) if the violation of WP:FORUM is not blatantly obvious (it clearly wasn't in this case), and you need to explain that reason in the edit summary. Not for me, but for everyone involved. That you didn't do that only makes the main point in this section - about how lackadaisical some of you are about removing other people's comments from article talk pages.

Anyway, my goal here is that you're more careful about other user comment deletions in the future; hopefully that has been accomplished. --Born2cycle (talk) 04:47, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Blocking MickMacNee from AfD boards permanently for PA and UNCIVIL violations

I was wondering if it is possible to bar a user from participating in Articles for Deletion. I was shocked at the level of uncivilty displayed by the user MickMacNee in Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Wind Jet Flight 243. He was unacceptabally nasty in his responses to anyone that disagreed with his views. While passion is good, taking any dissent as an attack on ones' self is not only bad, but damaging to the project, as it steers the focus off of the issues at hand and onto the user and his own personal dramas.

His decision to badger users who disagreed, and I mean badger, which is distinct and different from offering counterarguments, as well as his name calling and borderline personal attacks on Kafziel demonstrate to me that he should be barred from participating in AfD for a significant amount of time. His continued beheavior after being told he was acting uncivil is a primary motivator for such a harsh proposal.

Please advise, Sven Manguard _Talk 02:14, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Addendum: I just had the destinct displeasure of reading an exchange between MickMacNee and Kafziel on MickMacNee's talk page. Quite simply, MickMacNee has demonstrated extreme violations of good conduct, launching a series of increasingly angry and illogical personal attacks. I was tempted to slap the upper level personal attack and uncivil warnings on his page, but I doubt it will do any good. He has a long history of blocks and including one explicitly justified as ‎ "attitude not compatible with this project" from January of this year. For posterity, the attacks on the talk page are available here It's time to ban this person for an extended period of time. Sven Manguard _Talk 03:27, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, saw that gem awhile ago. Mick feels the need to badger most (all?) of the keep comments. I've seen him do it elsewhere as well. (Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Republic of Ireland vs France (2010 FIFA World Cup Play-Off)) Grsz 03:33, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

I think Sven brings up a good point. Everybody has the right to reply to comments in AFDs, of course, but his answers are becoming heated and incivil, and yes, badgering; and his replies to Kafziel ("Fucking 'TLDR', that just about sums up the issue for me, pure and utter laziness.", "I am bloody amazed you are an admin tbh") are unacceptable. He has also received a final warning for incivility. I'm not sure about barring MickMacNee from AFD is the best way to deal with this, but the situation is something that requires attention. That being said, I'm fairly new on the English Misplaced Pages, so I'm probably not the best person to comment on this. → Clementina 03:39, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

You have as much right as anyone to speak your mind Clementina. I think that it is high time to permanently block this user. He has had more than enough chances. I'm sure there is precedent for banning perpetually uncivil people, and there certainly is precedent for banning users with personal attack track records of this magnitude. Sven Manguard _Talk 03:48, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Edit: Changed header title to reflect change in circumstances. Blocking from AfD is not enough, considering that the user takes his attacks beyond AfD. Sven Manguard _Talk 03:50, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Just to ask, where is he being uncivil in the page linked? I only read the first half, but every one i looked at was quite appropriate. To take a random example of a strongly-worded but perfectly civil response:

Arguing that it is both notable right now, and that it should be kept to see if it becomes notable, is not sound reasoning in the slightest. It is positively unsound reasoning infact. You would have more chance of having your vote counted if you didn't just piggy back other people's thoughts, when it's not even clear what policy or guideline is backing up their rather vague and WP:ATA-like opinions. MickMacNee (talk) 01:12, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Pointing out logically bereft arguments is the duty of any wikipedian. That's just plain good looking out for the project. Not every opinion is valid, AfD is not a vote. He may have stepped over the line, like i said i only read the first half, but this has been done before with him and afd, and the end result was whining about having to make your afd !votes actually defensible is not productive. -- ۩ Mask 04:02, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

I think the issue are with his tone most of the time. He comes off rather stand-off-ish. . As a note, I agree with him that the article in question should be deleted, do not agree that he should be blocked indef, and am just commenting as an observer. Grsz 04:09, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

• Mick's tone is not exactly conducive to mature and healthy debate, however, he is right. It would be a travesty if the AfD were closed as keep and nobody so much as challenged the the drive-by "follow the leader" votes. It's not much to ask people to produce some kind of informed rationale for their vote. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 04:14, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I don't think a ban is needed here. He has been blocked often in the past for repeated incivility, but as HJ Mitchell said, MickMacNee's opinion is usually not unreasonable - it's just that the tone in which he expresses them which is troubling. And while "follow the leader" votes may count as less than a personally written vote, yet sometimes a personally written vote is really just be a repetition of what another has more fully commented on, and the voter might feel that a succint endorsement would express his or her opinion just as well. → Clementina 04:22, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

HJ, I thought that I had given a rationale as to why the accident is notable. Mjroots (talk) 06:46, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

• Given the OP is now effectively asking for a community ban, I would vote to oppose that remedy. But Mick has been here long enough to know that news stories in popular areas never get deleted, regardless of policy. Fighting that hard against the tide wont win any friends. Sometimes one has to simply accept what is and move onto other battles. Resolute 04:15, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Edit conflict:

You are correct that pointing out bad logic is okay, but the way he does it is by attacking users, specificly saying that users are not entitled to their own opinions because they do not think for themselves. This is what I have the problem with.

Direct cut and paste quotes:

You really don't have any opinions of your own on the matter? None at all? Are we playing follow the leader here today? MickMacNee (talk) 01:17, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

This is an Afd. It is not disrespectful or badgering to expect you to have your own opinion on the matter. Given that your only contribution here is to agree with a contradictory rationale, whose actual intention w.r.t. the issue is still open to interpretation, I should think that it is more respectful for you to realise the deficiency of making such a vote, and correct it, rather than implying wrongdoing in others. MickMacNee (talk) 01:51, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Treating it as a game as ever WR. I'm guessing you put as much thought into this Afd as all the others based on the evidence. I am pretty sure that whatever happened in those other debates, the outcomes really had nothing to do with anything you might have said, which is generally not a lot, as you can only seem to manage these sorts of 'per x' votes anyway, and then fall back on this ridiculous grandstanding act of yours. MickMacNee (talk) 02:43, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Plenty of things add nothing to an Afd. This warning was just one of them. You should just concentrate on not making the sort of reading mistakes like you did down below, and let others worry about their knowledge, or lack of, of the contents of CIVIL. MickMacNee (talk) 21:08, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Each of these are violations of civility policy. Telling people you disagree is okay, telling people that they are not thinking and don't deserve opinions is not okay. These are mostly from the first half of the article. There are other bits and pieces elsewhere, some of them better than these (although the first one is a real gem) but I didn't want to be accused of taking things out of context. Also, read his user talk, in the big blue box, for the reason I moved for a full ban. Sven Manguard _Talk 04:20, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

May I respectfully suggest that we allow editors to read the AfD for themselves and form their own opinions? Taking quotes out of their original context, while not your intention, I'm sure, has a tendency to alter their meaning. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 04:26, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree, I just did that because I've proven time and again how bad I am at the linking that everyone else seems to do easily. I encourage everyone interested to read the whole thing. My intention is not to distort. Sven Manguard _Talk 04:31, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

• Mick's tone is unfortunate and I wish he would moderate it. No cause to ban or restrict him though, as far as I can see. --John (talk) 04:23, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
  • Not to beat a dead horse, but the focus of banning him came up after reading his talk page. Read the section "Wind Jet" on and you will see why I think the user has outstayed his welcome. Sven Manguard _Talk 04:27, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't see anything here remotely approaching ban level. In the linked AfD, his comments may be a little more heated than need be, but they are addressing the issue—whether the article should be kept or deleted. He can argue with everyone who comments if he wants to. They're not required to engage with him, and the closing admin will also make the determination on which arguments are most firmly grounded in policy. I would also agree that "Fucking TLDR" is not the most civil thing to say, but responding to someone's argument or comment (as Kafziel did) with "tl;dr" is quite uncivil in itself—it's a dismissive handwave, and is quite rude. So while his response didn't exhibit the best behavior, what he was responding to exhibited rather poor behavior as well. Seraphimblade 04:27, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

• I'd suggest that if anyone ought to be banned then it's you Sven, for bringing this nonsense to the punishment board. Malleus Fatuorum 04:29, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
  • Now that comment certainly isn't helpful. Why does this page and its contributors have the terrible habit of creating more drama? Grsz 04:30, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
    • (edit conflict) Now that is harsh. I again point out that this is a ban for a pattern of activity, it wouldn't be his first for incivilty, and the reason I am so concerned, despite what would normally be of little personal interest, is his treatment of Kafziel at "Wind Jet" on his talk page.
    • I'm staggered that you apparently can't see the irony in your question Grsz11. Malleus Fatuorum 04:39, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
      • The pile-on was not needed. Obviously nothing was going to come of Sven's proposal, but he brough up legit concerns. But stupid counter-comments aren't helpful. Why not just keep your mouth shut and ignore it? Grsz 04:45, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
        • You've clearly lost the use of your irony muscle Grsz11, or else you wouldn't consider "why not just keep your mouth shut" to be a civil response. Malleus Fatuorum 05:14, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
• I agree with Seraphimblade's assessment in that Kafziel shouldn't have used "tl;dr" in a discussion. It's counterproductive. On the other side, Mick is standoff-ish. I don't think he's at the level of communal ban. I would say open an RFC first, or take it to mediation. - Penwhale | 04:44, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
  • Wait, what? I'm confused here. What just happened, was Malleus being uncivil as an illustration of why we shouldn't tolerate incivility, or am I reading into this poorly? These last few posts have made no sense. Also, I am completely serious about the ban, but everyone is ignoring the talk page, the reason I am asking for the full ban, and focusing only on the AfD, which is now secondary. Sven Manguard _Talk 04:49, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
    • You ban him from XfD, and then block on the normal scale for being uncivil. But I'd rather people go through RFC and mediation first. - Penwhale | 04:56, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
      • I don't think even that level of formal dispute resolution is warranted. This whole thread would be better suited to WQA than the drama board, but how many of the people here have taken the time to actually have a serious conversation with Mick about comments you perceive to be uncivil rather than berating him or reaching for the pitchforks at ANI? HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 04:57, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose any sanction. MickMacNee has had, on occasions, civility issues, but his behaviour in this AfD is absolutely fine. I don't see any evidence of incivility, and legitimately questioning weakly (or even well) reasoned opinions is part of consensus-building, it isn't badgering. --Mkativerata (talk) 04:53, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
  • Except that he seems to be doing that to every single opposing opinions, and keeps arguing the same point when it seems that it is addressed. - Penwhale | 04:56, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
    • Well if people will insist on giving pathetic rationales for keeping such as "per nom" or "per the drive-by voter before me"... HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 04:57, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
      • Well what's more repetitive and annoying: comments arguing the same thing, or Mick arguing with the same argument. Grsz 05:02, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
      • HJ, I want to be sure I'm understanding you here... are you suggesting that any voter at AFD must come up with their own unique reason? If they agree with the nominator (or indeed agree with someone else), what purpose isn't served by them saying per X'?→ ROUX ₪ 05:05, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

As I'm sure many will be aware, this has been going on for months. Please see the RFC that MickMacNee filed about my participation at AfD and the associated talk page for further information. See also Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive635#Disruptive behaviour at AfD where I attempted to gain the community's support in curbing MickMacNee's behaviour at AfD without success. This should not just be about MickMacNee, as there are other editors who indulge in similar behaviour. Mjroots (talk) 06:42, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

You know, on the one hand this guy has pushed a whole lot of boundaries far too often, on the other hand it's 3AM where I am and I need to get some sleep. After seeing your post, I sincerely hope someone just up and bans this menace, but I am formally done with the issue, and unless this explodes onto my userspace, I'm not perusing it tomorrow morning. That being said, if you need anything don't be afraid to call. Sven Manguard _Talk 06:56, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Resolve and move on?

Okay, this has gotten out of hand, and it seems unlikely that there will be any blocks, so can we settle on a harshly worded final warning for incivility and a request that the user takes disagreement less personally, then move on. Either MickMacNee will calm down or he won't, and if he does this again, we can take this up again, but again, this ANI isn't going to end in a block or a section ban, and there continuing serves no purpose. Sven Manguard _Talk 05:23, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

• I wasn't going to participate here, but I do think I should at least say that I do not think Mick's comments to me were out of line. We're both adults, we were speaking our minds, and in the end we agreed to disagree. I do think some of his comments at the AfD are pretty bad, which is why (as I said on his talk page) I declined to respond to him there, but it's certainly nothing that's going to get him banned from AfD. So let's just close this and move on to something more productive. Kafziel 05:32, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
• Mick is often abrasive, but all I see here is him trying to make a strong case for deletion and to point out invalid arguments and to debunk the straw man arguments advanced for retaining the article. There is fairly terse language on both sides, and it would be unfair to single Mick out for any punishment. Anyhoo, it may be that the OP to this thread genuinely thinks Mick is being exceptionally uncivil, or simply that he may feel threatened by the relentless assault on his own hollow arguments. --Ohconfucius 05:37, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I posted my keep vote after this whole thing began. I doubt that Mick even knows I exist, considering that this entire thing appears to have taken place while he was offline. Sven Manguard _Talk 06:06, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Ohconfucius, I hear what you're saying, but by doing so, isn't MickMacNee insulting the intelligence of the closing admin/editor? In my experience, regular AfD closers are quite capable of evaluating the arguments for and against deletion, and making a decision on the merits of those arguments. In the rare cases they get it wrong, there is a mechanism for dealing with it. Mjroots (talk) 07:22, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

He may well be, but he hasn't to my mind breached WP:CIVIL (and if he has, he's not the only one), although he may have perhaps overstepped WP:POINT. Ohconfucius 09:32, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

• A final warning? He didn't do anything. So no, we can not settle on that. This entire thread has been people saying they dont see what you're upset about. -- ۩ Mask 05:39, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

  "Didn't do anything" is laying it on a bit thick. But, yes, it's not THAT big a deal. Sven has been editing for all of two weeks, so maybe everyone could give him a break already. Kafziel 05:42, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

  I actually did not know that, and I do apologize. I just assumed someone who has found ANI has more experience then two weeks. This can be a learning experience for him, and I don't hold it against him at all. No harm, no foul :) -- ۩ Mask 10:55, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

• How about we just give both Mick and Kafziel a trouting for letting their talkpage discussion get a bit overly heated, and all move on with our lives? No harm, no foul on both sides, IMO. rdfox 76 (talk) 05:44, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
• As a clarification, this began as my objection to Mick's beheavior on ANI, then I saw his warnings and block log and realized that he has a history of these things. That's when I went all out. I admit that it might have gotten out of hand, but I saw him as an aggressor mistreating a half dozen people and stepped in out of what now seems like a misplaced desire to protect others from what I perceived to be a community threat. I'm sorry for the trouble I caused. Sven Manguard _Talk 06:06, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

As to the suggestion that this is marked as resolved, I think that we need to hear from MickMacNee before this can be done. Mjroots (talk) 13:51, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Late to my own party as usual, I miss all the fun around here, although I was having much more fun in RL while this was going on.... As ever, given this is a venue for cluefull independent review against actual policy, from people without horses in the race, I've nothing to add here beyond the very cluefull feedback given by most, except to extend some thanks to this month old editor who, through his attempted banning of me, has brought some much needed independent community input to that Afd. MickMacNee (talk) 15:29, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

• Given lots of previous discussions with lots of different editors on this very subject, why don't we simply stop kidding ourselves and simply remove WP:CIVIL from being core policy and one of the five pillars. That way, we'll save on soooo much wasted time where innocent editors make complaints only for other editors to say things like "Yeah, that was maybe uncivil, but true and everyone is entitled to their opinion". Why bother with WP:CIVIL at all if its not going to get enforced? --HighKing (talk) 15:50, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
  • Probably not the right place for that discussion; but as "pillars" go, WP:CIVIL is pretty damn crumbly and not acutally supporting the real day to day workings of Misplaced Pages. There are essay-level admonisions that get applied far more frequently and with greater impact. Active Banana ( 15:55, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Fair enough comment that roughly agrees with my own thoughts. I certainly don't mean to divert this discussion away from the community's ongoing battle with Civility. I wonder where a more appropriate place for this discussion might be? --HighKing (talk) 16:07, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages talk:Civility? --John (talk) 17:04, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

• Mick loves to spout lots of Misplaced Pages rules & guidelines at people (WP:NOT, WP:NTEMP, WP:AIRCRASH, WP:GNG and WP:EVENT is this ONE edit alone). But he seems to fail to understand the important of one of the five pillars on which this project is built on, that of Civility. Something will have to be done about this at some stage before it get further out of hand and I get the strong impression from above that people just want to sweep it under the carpet in the hope that it will go away. Bjmullan (talk) 16:27, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

• Bjmullan, believe me, I'd love to block MickMacNee for the next thousand years or so for the behaviour brought up here. Unfortunately, I'm way too involved to even click on the block button. This issue will only go away when MickMacNee tones down the rhetoric and stops badgering every editor who holds the opposite view to him in AfDs. Whether that can be done before another block is handed out is down to MickMacNee. Mjroots (talk) 16:45, 5 October 2010

• What makes you think he fails to understand civility? This community runs on consensus, and the community consensus reached in this thread is that Mick was above-board on all counts. If you disagree with the community's decision that's one thing, but dark, sweeping pronouncements of future consequences based on failure to heed your words are not only impractical, but a touch more then slightly amusing as well. -- ۩ Mask 16:47, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

• MickMacNee understands civility all right. Putting it into practice is another matter. Mjroots (talk) 16:57, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

• I had meant that as a response to Bjmullen, but touche. This does illustrate a point though. Many of the things said towards MickMackNee in places like this thread, his RfC in regards to you, any of the other ANI threads, are farther over the line then most of the things others complain about him saying. He was called a menace, a cancer before . And yet he doesn't even mention them. He never holds it up as justification, or a shield. Mick, honest to god, doesn't seem that interested in this if others didn't try to stir it up. He's not trolling, looking to get a rise and stir shit up. He's working on making the encyclopedia better. -- ۩ Mask 17:12, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

• the community consensus reached in this thread is that Mick was above-board on all counts - reading the comments, just about every single editor expressed a negative view on Mick's tone and comments. I'd go so far as to say that Mick is right (a lot) more often than he is wrong, and maybe he is working on making the encyclopedia better, but there is a systematic civility issue here and if Mick refuses to .. adjust, then this topic is going to continue to rear it's head again and again. This isn't the first ANI opened on Mick relating to civility in the last 60 days, and his Talk page is peppered with pleas from editors to tone down his comments. While this isn't the worst example, it doesn't take long to find examples in his contributions. As a community we should ask ourselves, is letting Mick "get on with it" working? Clearly not as evidenced by the drama surrounding him on a daily basis. So what are the options? (Sweeping it under the carpet is not an option). --HighKing (talk) 17:21, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

• Besides the OP and mjroots, did any editor comment on the push to ban Mick favorably? Or the plan to restrict him from XfD? No. We are not 'sweeping it under the rug', if you want him punished we have to wait for him to actually do something worth punishing. A lot of people bringing ANI threads with nothing behind them does not dictate that we 'must' do anything. -- ۩ Mask 17:38, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

I pulled you up on your comment that Mick was above-board on all counts. This is clearly not true. While the community consensus is that Mick does not deserve a block in this instance (and I also agree with that btw), the community has also acknowledged that there's a problem with his tone and his comments (just not quite enough for a block). That is not the same as bringing ANI threads with nothing behind them. If you take a look at Mick's longer-term behaviour, it's clear that there's an ongoing systematic behavioural problem relating to CIVIL policies. But what to do? We can agree that Mick's intentions are good. Waiting for him to do something worth punishing is sticking ones head in the sand, and the block ends up being a punishment. Perhaps a civility probation is in order before we have to resort to blocks or bans might be more productive all round. --HighKing (talk) 17:52, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

As to the assertion "I'd go so far as to say that Mick is right (a lot) more often than he is wrong", pray tell where? The majority of the AFDs that he has participated in have been kept inspite of his lengthy protestations, and most of them were upheld on apeal. So no, he doesn't appear to be right more oftern than his is wrong, but just the opposite.

While he may aguably do good work in contributing to articles, his "contributions' to discussions are far from productive. Perhaps the soultion would e to totally ignore his badgering on AFDs, but editors unfamiliar with him contribute at each new AFD,a nd theire unaware of his behavior, so enforcing that is problematic. Should we ban him from talk pages? That doesn't seem workable either, and his history of edit warring and uncivil edit summaries on articles suggests that would would continue. I don't see another way of handling his incivility other than an outright ban at this point. He's proven he sees no need to change ehavior in anyway. - BilCat (talk) 17:55, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

his "contributions' to discussions are far from productive. His contributions to the AfD this started in relation to were the only intelligent thing on that page until this thread got more eyes on the discussion in question (eyes that then proceeded to agree with him, I'd like pointed out). Mick doesn't personally attack very often. He comments on contribution (your rationale) and not contributor. Not always, none of us ever do, but the vast majority of the time. WP:CIVIL makes that exact distinction, too. It protects you from assholes, not things you dont want to hear. -- ۩ Mask 18:03, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

I've never felt intimidated by the Mick, at AfDs. GoodDay (talk) 17:57, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

I wouldn't go as far as an outright ban but perhaps being placed under civility parole (as happened to a couple of disruptive editors at WP:BISE) may be the first step in getting Mick to understand what civility means. Bjmullan (talk) 18:04, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

If such a parole will help prevent Mick from getting banned? then that's a good plan. GoodDay (talk) 18:06, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Such a parole does not help Mick get banned, all it does is give the people who enjoy causing drama a nice clearly defined line they need to bait him over to get their desired outcome. Holding him to the same standards as everyone else clearly just isnt working because they misjudged where the, you know, actual line is. -- ۩ Mask 18:15, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

I hope it doesn't get him banned. I rather it help prevent that, by saving Mick from himself. GoodDay (talk) 18:17, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

We haven't even gotten that far yet my friend :) I doubt there's consensus to implement any sort of parole. There might be, I just dont believe there is. Might be wrong though. -- ۩ Mask 18:38, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Personal attacks continue

MickMacNee recieved a final warning for incivility on 2 September. This morning, he called another editor a "basic troll" on the talk page of my RFC. Please, will somebody do something about this continual breach of WP:CIVIL? Mjroots (talk) 08:01, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

That one is pretty clearly over the line. I defend Mick when he keeps it focused on the content of arguments and their merit. That diff is just straight name calling. Congrats, just when I thought this whole pursuit of Mick was going to play out like Ahab's obsession, you found your white whale. -- ۩ Mask 11:01, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

AK, I can keep it focused on content all day every day, up to a point, just like anybody else here. And the point was crossed here. The guy is a troll, that's a fact. He stuck his oar in at that section to simply state that I don't "understand anything" and I am "incapable of learning" . I mean seriously, if this is not trollery, what is? Am I supposed to take this utter bollocks as constructive feedback? Am I supposed to happily bend over and take this rather obviously biased 'report' from the most biased and partisan admin I have seen in my goddam life? Here is a selection of previous trollery from this editor towards me: stop making ludicrous arguments again and again. stop being disruptive to the project and find something useful to do...The same lame arguments/excuses were made by both these editors...yet another waste of time by (MickMacNee)...stop these ridiculous AfDs...we will soon know who is clueless here. just wait and see...I highly doubt anybody can have a reasoned argument with you Mick. stop wasting every bodies time...even if I made one (a reasoned argument) you will not be able to comprehend it. trust me on that one...stop your completely non sense rants and do something useful for the project...get the message MMN. nobody wants you and your ability to contribute is marginal at best. Mjroots didn't raise an eyebrow to a single one of these comments, and he sees every single one. It's no coincidence that both think the same way on the disputed Afds, in opposition to me. And my personal favourite, his latest comment in the most recent Afd: there is no way in hell this article will be deleted...I dont think that you get it that nobody cares what your arguments are anymore. this AfD is another fine example. needless waste of time. The outcome? An article Mjroots created and asserted was more than notable, got deleted, and then we have this latest call to block me. I've have had enough of this rahter obvious campaign of intimidation, so I'm making the proposal below of an interaction ban. MickMacNee (talk) 16:22, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

The reason I didn't take any action against Wikireader41 is because I generally agree with him. I think that any incivility from him is nowhere near as bad as that MickMacNee has committed. I do think that the constant questioning of every vote, and every reply to every challenge, is not productive or conducive to a collaborative atmosphere. Compare Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/UPS Airlines Flight 6, which MickMacNee had plenty of input on, with Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Alrosa Mirny Air Enterprise Flight 514, which MickMacNee had no input into whatsoever. Both had the same result - keep. BTW, the Wind Jet Flight 243 article was not deleted, it was merged. I'm OK with that, as it allows easy recreation once the final report is released and we can evaluate the cause, recommendations, any changes made as a result etc. The question remains, is calling an editor a "basic troll" a PA or not. I say it is, and at least one editor agrees with me. Mjroots (talk) 17:20, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

This is a classic. 'Civility is OK as long as you agree with the editor in the dispute' is what that explanation effectively sounds like to me. This comes from someone who has, without any sense of shame or embarassment, continually declared that he can separate his conduct as an admin and an editor in this dispute, and that he always acts neutrally in either case anyway. Pretty obviously this is not happening, and he has no right to claim he should be considered worthy of being trusted as someone allowed to dispationately and neutraly comment on this dispute, and that people should not treat his reports here as anything other than wholly biased, and certainly not with the respect you would treat any normal admin's comments. I didn't think you would actualy admit you are completely biased in whether you do or do not consider a breach of civility is worth reporting is down to whether the editor is on your side or not, but here it is, in black and white. Unbelievable. As for the rest, as if it were remotely relevant to this report, the Windjet article no longer exists as a separate article, and if you recreate it against the Afd outcome, without attempting at all to show how it meets WP:EVENT, but simply on the basis that the investigation report was published, then I will simply renominate it for deletion, and it will get deleted. I urge everyone to look at both those Afds that were kept, look at the quality of arguments and the people involved in making them, and then look at the Windjet outcome, where the exact same arguments for keeping were made, but this time it got input from the wider community, rather than just the article creators, project editors, and other interested readers, and was examined by a closer who did a bit more than just vote-count, and thus the article was not kept in any practical sense. Mjroots is most certainly unaware of the difference between the significance, relevance, and ultimate legitimacy, of the two keeps, compared to the one delete, and I've given up even trying to explain to him what the difference is. Would Mjroots pass Rfa with this demonstrated level of understanding of WP:AFD, WP:CON and WP:NOT? On recent evidence of SilverSeren's application, I severly doubt it. He's not open to the idea of standing again of course. The only understanding he seems to have of the issue is that if he can have me eliminated as an opponent in this dispute, then there will be more likelyhood that even more Afd's will sail through without any decent arguments being made, and any proper examination from the wider community against our actual inclusion policies and guidelines being done. This is a content dispute, and by rights, I should be completely free of Mjroot's attempts at intimidation and elimination. MickMacNee (talk) 18:02, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

OK, let's try and put it in nice and simple language. Any incivility from Wikireader41 did not cross the line, whereas calling other editors "basic trolls" most certainly does cross the line. What I was trying to show in the two AfDs I referred to, is how much smoother it goes when the nominator gives their rationale for deletion, and then everyone else gives their rationale for retention, deletion, merging or whatever without the constant challenging of every arguement opposite to the nominator's view, followed by the constant challenging of every reply to every challenge which degenerates into a mud-slinging match. As I have said before, most recently only yesterday, my goal is not to "eliminate" MickMacNee as an "opponent", it is to get him to cut down the constant badgering at AfDs and the incivility that goes with it.

As for the Wind Jet Flight 243 AfD discussion, and the participants therein, all editors across Misplaced Pages have the right to participate in all AfDs. The fact that most of them don't does not mean that the views of those who do participate are invalid. As far as I'm aware, there has been no canvassing for !votes in any recent aircrash AfDs. Relevant WikiProjects have been informed of AfDs by means of neutrally-worded notices, mostly in the form "Foo Airlines Flight 123 has been nominated for deletion". This is completely in accordance with accepted practices. There is no guarantee that a project member, on seeing such a notice, will vote "keep". All editors are encouraged to form their own views and !vote accordingly. Mjroots (talk) 18:38, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

And for the millionth time, your ideas that Afds should be very short, with a nomination, and then a nice neat list of one or two line sentences with no challenges, no discussion, with absolutely no care in the world as to whether people make a strong argument, or a weak one, and that the ignorance of crowds rules all, has been dismissed as an idea of Afd that is completely and utterly devoid of any understanding of the purpose of the exercise. And there has been canvassing, you'e done it yourself and it's linked to above. I did not allege there was any problem with Projects being involved, but there is a clear and obvious difference between the quallity and legitimacy of the Afds you like, and the one's you don't. I'm sorry you don't appear to see it, but it's there, and been observed and commented on by everyone who has investigated them. MickMacNee (talk) 19:38, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with a view being challenged. Once a reply has been given to that challenge, that is where is should stop - the closing editor will evaluate the challenge and response, and consider the merits of each when closing. Where I do have a problem is when the response to a challenge is further challenged, because this is what leads to the mud-slinging matches. So, Mick, how about limiting yourself to just one challenge (per editor), and leaving it there in future, no matter what you think of the answer given (if any). Mjroots (talk) 20:24, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Absolutely not. This is not how Afd works. If you want to change the way it works, pitch it at Misplaced Pages talk:Articles for deletion, but I am not going to operate to some special arrangements at Afd just to accomodate your dislike of debate. MickMacNee (talk) 21:50, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Request a reporting/commenting ban of Mjroots

I have just about had it with Mjroots and his biased observation and reporting of my behaviour, and his constant behind the scenes rabble rousing and general slagging of my reputation. Forget about vague notions about not being 'rude', this is what is actually incivil behaviour. And on this issue, he crossed the AGF line years ago. He is knee deep in a content dispute with me, and this latest attempt to get me blocked in the section above, while he conveniently ignores the actions of others, even when it concerns the post being replied to with alleged incivility, is beyond the pale. I would like him to be completely banned from making ANI posts about me, and from generally talking crap about me on other people's talk pages in thinly disguised Afd canvassing attempts, such as this, where he wanders to a friends talk page, casually drops a link to an Afd, and is waffling on about how I am 'at it again'. I can be reasonable. He can nominate a neutral and uninvolved point of contact, where he can go if he sees something that he thinks needs raising, and they can make the call whether to post at ANI, or do something else. But there have been two ANI posts so far about my alleged wrongdoings at Afd over this dispute, and they have resulted in no sanctions at all. Mjroots just refuses to drop the stick. If this interaction ban does not happen, then Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration#Mjroots will be getting some content very soon. I've tried Rfc on his actions, and it got derailed, and he has just ignored it anyway, and continued to resort to just more unactionable and unjustifed general bitching and whining against me. He has not once followed WP:DR over this, not once. He has simply carried on the same behaviour outlined in the Rfc, while claiming that the support of trolls like the one he is defending above, shows he is an excellent admin. He needs to get real. This conduct is simply not acceptable in any admin. This is going beyond simple concern of one editor over another, as he rather ludcirously claims this campaign does not affect his standing as an admin because he hasn't yet been stupid enough to actually block me himself. Time to stop it now, one way or the other, as I'm just about done with this guy. We have 2000 admins here, and I am fine with 1,999 being responsible for looking out for incivility, all forms of it, at Afds in this dispute. MickMacNee (talk) 16:22, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

So, MickMacNee is still trying to deflect attention away from his own behaviour. "...there have been two ANI posts so far about my alleged wrongdoings at Afd over this dispute, and they have resulted in no sanctions at all..." - just because no sanctions have resulted does not mean that his behaviour is acceptable. He has been told it is not acceptable numerous times. My RFC was not derailed (except in MickMacNee's view). A number of editors evaluated MickMacNee's outline of the dispute, and my reply to his views. I'm sure a RFC about MickMacNee's behaviour at AfD will generate much more response.

As an admin, shouldn't I be raising issues about MickMacNee's behaviour with other editors and admins where I feel it is warranted. As I said on the talk page of my RFC, there is no requirement to notify MickMacNee that I have raised an issue about his conduct, as those pages are not ANI. He knows I'm too involved to take any administrative action against him. What I'd like to know is why is there no other admin prepared to take action over this issue? Mjroots (talk) 17:40, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Again, unbelievable. You tell me where in WP:DR or WP:CIVIL it is that allows you to wander randomly around the pedia talking crap about other users without telling them, and then claim that this is you doing your admin duty. This is the board you come to if you want immediate admin attention, nowhere else. And you are getting your answer. If you don't know these things about adminship and Misplaced Pages already, and are still scratching your head as to why nobody but fellow weak keep voters will join you on your bandwagon, then seriously, wtf. I'm not deflecting anything, I'm trying to deal with your conduct in the proper manner, as you've shown absolutely no inkling that you will ever get it, that what you are doing is not only not proper admin conduct, it's barely even proper editor conduct. You won't find me creeping around in the dark corners bitching and moaning and flapping my gums, this is the relevant board, and here I am, seeking a solution to the problem that deals with your abuses, and also very generously still lets you retain your ability to 'raise issues' about me. MickMacNee (talk) 19:50, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Milogardner

Created on the 15th of September, with 8 editors endorsing it as well as the two who certified it, this seems to have had no effect on Milogardner (talk · contribs) who has made minimal input to the RfC. See Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Mathematics#Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Mathematics and Talk:Rhind Mathematical Papyrus 2/n table. I'm one of those who certified it so I may be seen as involved, but I think it is time that some action is taken to stop his disruptive editing. I'll notify him about this thread. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dougweller (talk • contribs) (thanks for fixing my sig, clicking on the sig icon at the bottom has been giving me a very erratic response for weeks, placing it in section headings, edit summaries, etc, anywhere other than where it should be Dougweller (talk) 10:31, 4 October 2010 (UTC))

• I'm not really sure what can be done about this user. He does not seem to be responsive to the RFC and has just used it as another venue to expand on his personal thesis (RFC Response). This thesis has adversely affected pretty much the whole of the coverage of the work on Egyptian Mathematics for several years now. I would suspect further attempts at Dispute Resolution will be similarly unproductive, so we might want to look at a community ban.--Salix (talk): 10:26, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
• I would support an indefinite topic ban from Egypt-related topics, until the user signals that they got the message. Hans Adler 13:18, 4 October 2010 (UTC) I made my support explicit further down. Hans Adler 20:54, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Please cite one or more specifics? Every one of my latest posts cite scholars and scribal issues ... Anneka Bart cites 'common sense' opinions without citing sources, therefore being unclear and non-Wikipedian. What are you folks going to do about her practices? One background issue all along has been: was Egyptian math intellectual or emotional in scope? I will continue to side with the intellectual facts, taking Misplaced Pages posting rules and practices into proper account adding scholars at every level ... Get used to it, and document Egyptian math controversies ... ignoring a controversy is non-scholarly and non-Wikipedian ... The recent 'flap' revolves around single false position, a proposed form of Egyptian division that Howard Eves reported in my undergrad History of Math class 48 years ago. Note that Misplaced Pages correctly discusses the topic in terms of diffusion from India and documented byuFibonacci in the Liber Abaci ... no one has added the proposed scribal idea with hard evidence ... I'd like to read several updated scholarly reports on Ahmes' false position that guessed (at first partitions) as scribal division operations ... ignore or fix Misplaced Pages's false position ... Egyptian scribal division used divisors n and inverted and multiplied by 1/n to prove answers (example: RMP 38, Clagett (1999), multiplied one hekat (320 ro) by 7/22 and 22/7, returning 320 ro; and Akhmim Wooden Tablet, Vymazalova (2002), multiplied one hekat (64/64) by 1/3, 1/7, 1/10, 1/11 and 1/13 and multiplied by 3, 7, 10, 11 and 13, and returned (64/64) facts that are not in dispute. Best Regards, Milogardner (talk) 13:23, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

The only relevant background issue has been that your idea of what Misplaced Pages is and how it works is very different from everybody else's, and that you are not really listening when people try to explain it to you. This behaviour is described in WP:IDHT. It is so common here, and so detrimental to our goal of writing an encyclopedia, that it often ends in editors being blocked for it. If you want to contribute to the project you will need flexibility and openness w.r.t. what the community of editors tells you. Most of us experts get away with a bit of original research, when done appropriately. What nobody gets away with is huge amounts of original research that is so fresh that it contains errors, and which we push into articles against the opposition of other experts. Hans Adler 13:26, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

I have to say that the above response from Gardner is absolutely typical: blast a long message about the specifics of his original research into a space where it is off-topic, ignore any criticism of his behavior, and continue editing exactly as before. The RFC does not appear to have changed his behavior and bringing it to the attention of ANI does not appear to have changed his behavior. The only thing that might make a difference is a block. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:03, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

• Support temporary block and/or topic ban. He's just not getting it. Seems to think we're on him about his theories and research or their authority or whether they're wrong or right, it doesn't matter.. just stop kicking cryptic lyrics leaving readers scratching their heads "wtf he said?" and write a decent article with content that stays on-topic and makes at least a bit of sense to a layman. -- œ 22:57, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

• Support temporary block and/or topic ban.I am one of those who certified the original RfC, so I am involved. But he's just not getting it as today's posts under IP 75.48.21.119 show. More hard to follow edits, a post of one of his own blogs as an external link, etc. His additions invariably require major rewrites to get something that OE describes as "a decent article with content that stays on-topic and makes at least a bit of sense to a layman" --AnnekeBart (talk) 16:12, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

My own summary of what others have said:

1. There are long-standing problems with Milogardner's editing on Egyptian mathematics
2. The RfC has two certifiers and nine editors who endorse it
3. Milo sees no problem at all and is unwilling to change
4. Several people have expressed general support for 'a block and/or a topic ban'

What remains for admins to do at this board is probably to figure out what response is most likely to cure the problem. If you check WP:RESTRICT you will see that it is very common to address this type of a problem with a topic ban. Since Milogardner's editing has been causing unfavorable comment since 2006, a short time limit on a topic ban seems unwise. How about an indefinite ban on the topic of Egyptian mathematics, broadly construed, that would include talk pages? EdJohnston (talk) 16:56, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

• Support indefinite ban on the topic of Egyptian mathematics, broadly construed and including talk pages. Dougweller (talk) 20:44, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
• Support temporary block and/or topic ban. Agree with comments in this subsection by OlEnglish (talk · contribs), above. -- Cirt (talk) 20:47, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
• Support indefinite ban on the topic of Egyptian mathematics, broadly construed and including talk pages. --AnnekeBart (talk) 20:50, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
• Support this precise proposal. Our short interaction on my talk page shows that there is little hope. Of course if and when he appears to get it after a while, we can still discuss lifting the ban, as always. Hans Adler 20:54, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
• Support. Paul August ☎ 21:25, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
• Support this proposal, with the proviso articulated by Hans Adler. Sławomir Biały (talk) 21:39, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
• Support per Hans Adler. I'd consider lifting the ban, if he could demonstrate a change in his communication style, sticking to a single idea, and using language that others could easily understand. --Salix (talk): 23:23, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
• Support an indefinite topic ban, to be lifted if he shows (e.g. through edits on unrelated topics) that he can contribute constructively without the problems described in the RFC. —David Eppstein (talk) 23:28, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Ban enacted - I see the above discussion as a consensus for a community ban of User:Milogardner from the topic of Egyptian mathematics, broadly construed, which includes talk pages. The topic ban may be appealed in the usual ways. Any editor who believes that Milogardner has reformed can appeal on his behalf at any time. EdJohnston (talk) 18:26, 6 October 2010 (UTC).

The topic ban has been logged at WP:RESTRICT. EdJohnston (talk) 03:58, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Wuhwuzdat on a CSD spree

User:Wuhwuzdat seems to have embarked on a CSD spree and is adding various inappropriate tags to articles, including...

• George and the Christmas Star tagged as A3 less than a minute after creation, with this reply to my pointing out that A3 tags should not be applied within moments of creation.
• D P Kut-Moi-Cheung tagged as A7 when at the time it said "Currently the all-time laeding scorer for the Mauritian National football team".
• Ocean Bottom Nightmare tagged as A7, when at the time it said "..the week following it's release they were BBC Introducing's Pick of the Week".
• Deviant Way tagged as A11, when, though it's quality is poor, it is not blatant advertising.

That's just four recent ones, but there are quite a few more I haven't checked yet - just thought the biting of newbies needs to be stopped asap, and Wuhwuzdat's response to me did not seem to be constructive. (Just about to inform Wuhwuzdat) -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:00, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Now informed. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:02, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

The first example still contains nothing, and the fourth example reads just like a book advertisement to me. HalfShadow 17:06, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Agree with HalfShadow. Saebvn (talk) 17:10, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

I'd even go so far as to tag the fourth example (and other articles this user has written) as {{db-nocontent}} as it contains literally no information pertaining to the book's plot, or even a synopsis.

Yes, the first one still contains nothing, but my point is that it should not have been tagged A3 moments after creation - who knows what the editor might have added had they not been bitten? And the fourth - I don't think it's clear enough to tell between a blatant advert and a poor-quality start at a genuine article about the book -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:15, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Well, considering every other book article he's written are exactly the same way, and the last ones were about ten days ago, he doesn't plan on expanding the descriptions at all. HalfShadow 17:19, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

You may be right, but "doesn't plan on expanding the descriptions at all" is not a justification for a CSD:G11. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:26, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

The vast majority of my edits are CSD tagging of new editors new articles. I had not seen the notice he informed me of before he made me aware of it, as I patrol almost exclusively from this page. WuhWuzDat 17:13, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, but you responded in a combative manner after I did point it out to you, which suggested you were not prepared to listen - and that's the only reason I brought it here. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:16, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

PS: seeing as you appear so prolific, do you think it might be a good idea to remove the "Semi retired" banners from your home and talk pages? -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:18, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

(outdent) The first one has been deleted. The second one is a possible hoax article that contained unreferenced BLP violations until I deleted them a minute ago. The third one does not seem CSD worthy. I have prodded the fourth one as it essentially has no content except for fair-use book covers (without rationales) and showy taglines usually used by marketers to promote their product. - Burpelson AFB ✈ 17:24, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

I've prodded the others from him in the same way. HalfShadow 17:25, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

After a quick Google search, Google brings up zero hits for D P Kut-Moi-Cheung, except for the wiki article. That plus the stuff I removed from it make it a pretty clear hoax to me. Should have been G3 instead of A7, but still pretty speedy-able to me. - Burpelson AFB ✈ 17:30, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

OK, fair enough. It was really just the reply to my CSD:A3 comment that made me think we had some unconstructive CSD tagging going on here - had I seen a constructive reply rather than "It met the criteria at the time of tagging, and per WP:CRYSTAL I cannot and WILL not attempt to read the creators mind, or predict his future editing (if any)" (now deleted), then I would not have come here - I just really hate seeing newbies being bitten within seconds of creating something. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:31, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't see a real problem in general with the tagging. There's going to be a few borderline situations or times when another tag would have fit better when you do a lot of tagging. I do feel like pointing out that WP:CRYSTAL has nothing to do with how it was used in WWD's response to your comment. 'Crystal' isn't about editors not predicting the future actions of other editors. It's about not predicting the potential future notability or the future history of the subject itself. --Onorem♠Dil 17:35, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Well, an A3 tagging within minutes of creation violates "articles should not be tagged for speedy deletion as having no context (CSD A1) or no content (CSD A3) moments after creation, as not all users will place all their information in their first revision", and I think biting newcomers so quickly is very poor - and as I say, had I not got such a dismissive response when I pointed it out, I would not have come here. Of the other three, one was tagged with the wrong tag, one was debatable, and one should not have been CSD tagged at all. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:41, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Just noting that this is a very long term issue, and Wuhwuzdat has been warned about his behaviour towards newbs creating pages, and other CSD-taggers, multiple times, and does not appear to be about to change his behaviour. Although since he's been less active recently, this may have been forgotten. Also, he's been told that citing CRYSTAL is not appropriate in this case - Kingpin (talk) 17:41, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, I appreciate someone actually listening to my point about not biting newcomers with A1 and A3 tags within moments of an article's creation. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:43, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

• I decided to check his most recent nominations. I looked at all of the most recent 31 (back to Sept 22). Of these, 21 were unquestionably suitable for speedy deletion, 4 were declined by other admins, and 6 were deleted, but in my opinion should not have been (for none of them do I feel there was such a high likelihood of a decent article that I would ask for undeletion) This is an error rate between 13% and 32%. For someone of his experience, 13% is pretty high. In the other direction, of the 21 unquestionably good speedies, 4 of them were either clear abuse or clear hoax, and deleted as such by the admins, but marked just as A7. Missing this many of the really serious problems indicates that he is scanning the articles quickly, but not thinking about them. I think he could do better if he went slower.

The problem of A1 and A3 is more general. I've made this error a few times myself, & I suspect most other admins also have once in a while failed to check the edit history for time of creation. For years we've been unable to find a solution that would't let the actual problems slip past. But it occurs to me that we should be able to use the edit filter system to detect tagging under these criteria of articles started within, say, the last hour, and at least warn the tagger. DGG ( talk ) 00:41, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

• Question. Isn't it more important that the deleting administrator delete properly? Or is only this user receiving a grade for CSD tagging due to prior history? Just asking.    Thorncrag   00:56, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

  I think the problem here is Wuhwuzdat's attitude towards NPP, and newbs. He also does some questionable tagging, but personally I see the main problem as the way he interacts with others. Since he is the one warning the creator, that means it's normally him the new editors will go to with the typical "why did you delete my article" questions (rather than the deleting admin). I've seen some rather rude responses to these questions. For example, Wuhwuzdat applies his "talk page rules" very strictly, and normally seems to completely ignore anyone who doesn't follow them (despite it being completely unreasonable to expect new comers to always manage to follow/understand them). - Kingpin (talk) 15:30, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

I'll just throw out there that there are differences of opinion about some borderline CSD cases. It's fine to claim a tagging is wrong, but when two other people (the nominator and the administrator) clearly disagreed with your opinion about it, there is the possibility that your opinion about the borderline cases is not the standard-in-use. That said, I agree with DGG that a 13% error rate is on the high side (I can't do the same evaluation he's doing so I'm talking abstractly about a percentage over 10%), but I don't think that's enough to prompt special concern. Shadowjams (talk) 04:14, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Proposed formal site ban for Kagome 85

Kagome 85 has been featured on some canadian news site where it is said that she was put on probation for making death threats on wikipedia, and, as evidenced by this edit this edit she has been harassing and cyber-stalking Moukity since he first came here 2 years ago. More threats to Moukity here

So, it may be time for a community discussion about a formal site ban of Kagome 85.

Discussion may now begin.

FelipeJoaoSalaoCastenada (talk) 17:27, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Whose sock are you? - Burpelson AFB ✈ 17:31, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

In addition to this issue, the user in question has been indefinitely blocked for two and a half years. --13 17:37, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Can someone RevDel the diffs posted by the SPA sock? The first one is a gross libel and the second one is a link to a personal attack. - Burpelson AFB ✈ 17:45, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

 Confirmed as SubversiveUser (talk · contribs), whom I'm certain it's Kagome 85.  IP blocked. –MuZemike 17:51, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

So, two people (Kagome 85 and Moukity) are involved in a mostly off-wiki dispute. Someone shows up here to ask that Kagome 85 be given a site ban for comments they made against Moukity, also linking to a news article which details legal actions taken against the person behind the Kagome 85 account and likely embarrassing to them. The requester is blocked as a sockpuppet of... Kagome 85? Did I miss something? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 18:46, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Yeah Bugs, I was wondering something similar as well, they initiated this to discuss having themselves banned? Heiro 19:05, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

I've lost count of the number of vandals who have posted requests here to themselves banned, however I suspect this is probably someone else. There's quite some background. We benefit from no involvement in this type of dispute. Kagome 85 is indefinitely blocked, and as such, banned. End of. -- zzuuzz 19:30, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Per WP:DENY - I won't go into details as to what people / accounts are involved... But the behavior of creating new accounts and insisting that we ban or reban or unban then reban their own account is unfortunately persistently common among some of our more problematic users. WP:NOTTHERAPY. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 19:40, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Per WP:DENY, I've removed the sock post to this thread; it will soon be tagged and bagged. This user was given plenty of chances to earn the good-faith they were given; instead they opt'd to continue their harassment and post harassing and insulting messages that were rightly removed on my talk page, and the person they were harassing. If they were here in good-faith, they would have not brought it up again. They had their chance, and no more time should be spent here except to bag and tag.— Dædαlus 23:18, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

New sock

See here , posted to my talk by User:Sango 42 contribs. Heiro 11:10, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Law-enforcement vs. law enforcement

Radiojon has just moved virtually all of our articles whose titles include "law enforcement" (although Law enforcement is one exception, oddly) from "law enforcement" to "law-enforcement". I've reverted some of the moves, and some article contents I've cleaned up, but I have homework to do — could some more admins help with moving these pages back? See his recent contributions (assuming "Jon" = "he"), since about 23:00 on the 4th October, for the pages that need to be moved. In particular, List of law-enforcement agencies in Alabama and parallel articles for all or nearly all other US states need to be moved. A few other pages appear also to have been moved for no apparent reason, such as Charging Data Record to Charging data record, even though the article uses the term as a proper noun.

I bring this up here for two reasons: (1) I've already had to perform one deletion to move a page back to the proper title, so asking non-admins might not work as well. (2) It might help to have a discussion here with Radiojon about these moves; if you look at his talk page, you'll see lots of notes from people telling him that he was moving pages inappropriately. I can't tell whether he's responded on other people's talk pages to these comments, but it's obvious that he's not getting the message. Nyttend (talk) 02:41, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

I left a query on his talk page a little over an hour ago. He(?) has not been active since about an hour before my note. —EncMstr (talk) 02:47, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Grammar

The use of the hyphen in titles like that of the Alabama list is defensible under WP:HYPHEN, as "law-enforcement" is used as an adjective. Ucucha 02:52, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

As much as I agree with you on the grammar front, moving such a large number of articles without discussion is a problem, since the sheer number of articles with the opposite convention tends to indicate that we had a de facto standard already in place. — Gavia immer (talk) 03:05, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

I understand the grammar point, but I've never seen this usage before (either on-wiki or off-wiki); perhaps this could be considered one of the zillions of exceptions to English grammar rules. Nyttend (talk) 03:34, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

I think the hyphen is usually optional in constructions like this, and it indeed doesn't seem to be used much for "law enforcement". Ucucha 03:41, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

That's because "law enforcement" is a compound noun, not a noun/verb combination, so no hyphen is needed, or proper. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:59, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

All these moves should be reverted. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:07, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, I've undone all the moves. —EncMstr (talk) 17:12, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Per a new edition of the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary, the hyphen is dying. EdJohnston (talk) 17:29, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Apparently it's "seen as messy looking and old-fashioned." ;-) TFOWR 17:35, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

On behalf of WP:LE I object to this move :P --S.G. _ping! 19:21, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Ah yes, I should have been clearer. I objected to the insertion of hyphens. there appears to be no precedent, grammatical or stylistic, for it. S.G. _ping! 19:43, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Which move? The addition of hyphens, or my removal of them? —EncMstr (talk) 23:46, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Radiojon's behavior

Radiojon's usual response to such an inquiry is to ignore it (and sometimes reinstate the mass page moves, again without discussion).

Previous threads:

• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive538#Radiojon
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive608#Unilateral redefinition / article moves

—David Levy 03:29, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

This guy has been pulling this since 2005 with nary a block? Greatest. Troll. Ever. Don't let me interfere further with erudite discussion of the use of the hyphen in English.Bali ultimate (talk) 03:46, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

I disagree with the "troll" description. Radiojon appears to honestly believe that he's improving the encyclopedia. Unfortunately, he does so by "correcting" articles to comply with his personal views, without regard for anyone else's. —David Levy 03:57, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Well, in that case let's put out a collection jar to pay for his therapist. Either that or a troll, the answer for wikipedia is obvious (though that would get in the way of much hilarity as people rush to their OEDs for guidance on how to handle this, so i suppose contra-indicated (contraindicated!).Bali ultimate (talk) 04:08, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

He's at it again? Because Radiojon's moves consistently attract controversy, he should be required to discuss all moves on the talk page before making them. I seem to recall making this request of him in the past. Does this sound like a reasonable solution? In other words, no moves unless he's first proposed and discussed it on the talk page. Viriditas (talk) 07:03, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

At the risk of sounding wiki-layerish, I'm not sure anyone other than arbcom has the authority to issue a restriction like that (a move ban). --Selket 07:19, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

No, the community has the authority to do that, if it's needed. Jon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.44.191.39 (talk) 08:02, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Quick note. (I'm short on time.) He recreated Vintage Hawaiian Treasures. After it was deleted by consensus. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 13:00, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm not seeing where it was deleted by consensus. Only where it was an expired PROD. Was it originally under another name by any chance? --Smashville 13:59, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Proposed topic ban

Given Radiojon's long history of making unreasonable moves without consensus, I'd like to propose a topic ban in accordance with Viriditas' suggestion above: that Radiojon be prohibited from moving any page (other than his own userspace) without first proposing the move and gaining consensus from others. One question — I've never before asked for any sort of ban, and I virtually never participate in ban proposals, so I'm not sure — does this proposal go here or at WP:AN? Nyttend (talk) 18:09, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

AN is the preferred venue, but when ban proposals evolve out of an AN/I thread, they're generally kept here. I suppose it wouldn't be bad to post a pointer on AN to here. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:08, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

I have made this user an unbeatable offer regarding this bad habit he seems to have acquired. I did this after looking in some detail at his contribs over the past few years; he basically doesn't edit talk pages or user talk and hasn't substantively done so since 2004 or so. This is unacceptable and this user has long since passed the point where the net benefit to the project is negative. My offer is intended to bring about a "win-win" situation; either Radiojon starts making edits that are actually of benefit, or he gets indefinitely blocked. Either would be better than going on as we have been. --John (talk) 00:00, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Good proposal. For the record, the user is one who has been on my watchlist for a long time after some run-ins over undiscussed page moves that appear to have been made in good faith and with good intentions, but were not well-received. I see that he has not made any contributions in the last 24+ hours. --Orlady (talk) 03:26, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I like the way you formulated this. Let's hope it works. Hans Adler 18:49, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

The only criticism I have of John's "unbeatable offer" is that "The very next time I see you make an undiscussed move of a page, I will block this account indefinitely" should have read "The very next time an Admin sees you make an undiscussed move of a page, he or she will block this account indefinitely". Not to suggest a pile-on here, but let him know he's not playing a game of "whack-a-mole" or "cat-&-mouse" with John. -- llywrch (talk) 23:36, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree with the offer; it's well done, although implementing Llywrch's suggestion would have been more useful yet. Nyttend (talk) 00:48, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Nice suggestion. I didn't want to presume to speak for the entire admin community but I do appreciate the suggestion and the support. John (talk) 01:27, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

User:Akamal1947

Can someone check on this users edits? here I've left messages for them at their talk User talk:Akamal1947, and in edit summaries. I've been on and off here tonight, not really paying attention and have inadvertently gone past 3RR, for which I will take any consequences that are relevant. They're last edit here is pretty symptomatic unreffed additions that I dont have the relevant knowledge to judge the accuracy of, removal of refs, etc. I have not reverted this one, I will leave that up to someone else. Earlier tonight, before they created this acct, they were operating as User talk:69.117.175.79 with these contribs . Heiro 08:55, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

User notified. Heiro 08:57, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Per this and , user is once again making unreffed changes, some a little suspiciously POV, i.e. Hindu to Arab, etc. Last night the edits mentioned above were reverted here by another user. Can someone else please have a look see, I'd rather not get pulled into an edit war with the editor. Heiro 10:18, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Also edits such as this , and .Heiro 10:51, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

AMuseo, Broad Wall & Historicist

Firstly, a declaration, I have have recent negative interactions with Amuseo and do not feel sufficiently dispassionate to act neutrally. I noticed a link on their userpage to Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Historicist which reveals that Amuseo is actually a sockpuppet of a user Historicist used to get around a ban from PI articles enacted under ARBPIA.

• Historicist (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Broad Wall (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• AMuseo (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

AMuseo was created first but appears to have been abandoned in favour of Historicist then resuming after the topic ban was enacted. Broad Wall became active from 1 January and appears to have been created for editing PIA articles as a quick scan of AMuseo's contribs suggests that this account was mostly clean of PI edits after the ban was enacted. Broad Wall was abandoned on 22 July and AMUSEO has been extensively editing PI related articles in breach of their topic ban since then. The relevant wikistalk report is here.

The question is what do we do about this? There is no real evidence of abusive socking except for the flagrant disregard of the topic ban although the absence of recent issues does suggest that behaviour has improved. I do feel that some response is required but, apart for reaffirming the topic ban should we consider a community sanction to restrict AMuseo or one account or is something more direct required. Since I'm too partial to involve myself in the decision I am simply reporting the facts for further discussion. Spartaz 17:37, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

I think that they should be indef'ed as the accounts have been used to escape detection of the topic ban, and as such are not valid WP:Clean start accounts. Also any pages that they have created in violation of the topic ban (that they are the only significant editors of) should be CSD G5'ed. Codf1977 (talk) 17:54, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Whether it was created by many editors or just one, Historicist and AMuseo have created dozens of new articles and expanded many others, earning DYK recognition for a substantial number of these articles which have been reviewed by other, unrelated Misplaced Pages editors. While I understand that there is a rush to delete any articles that are believed to be irretrievably tainted by their association with a particular editor, in this case such deletions will only serve to create greater disruption to the encyclopedia. I am more than willing to review and take editing responsibility for any article created by any of the editors in question here and oppose any effort at mass deletions using CSD G5 as a justification. Alansohn (talk) 19:28, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Well G5 shouldn't be applied on a blanket scale, no; if other editors have made significant contributions since AMuseo's creation of it, and/or it has reached DYK status, then it shouldn't be used. But in cases where neither applies, .e.g Café Hillel bombing, Nava Appelbaum and so on, they should be speedily deleted right now. These are the types of charged, and mostly non-notable, articles that this user has been arguing fervently for for months now, in violation of the topic ban. Tarc (talk) 19:44, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

I was on the fence about this one, never having had a bad interaction with any of the iterations of this editor (and only a few positive ones, all with AMuseo) but the fact that the topic ban was documented by a sitting arbitrator is pretty compelling. I don't think that G5 is appropriate, given that the user had not been "banned" from en.wiki entirely when the edits in violation of the topic ban were made, but I agree that an indef block for socking is the correct response and the appropriate starting place for further discussion. I want to commend the editor in question for being forthright in explaining his intentions, although they do indeed appear to have been a de facto admission of guilt. Jclemens (talk) 19:38, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Tarc. AMuseo has a long history of creating slanted articles about events in the news that don't merit encyclopedia articles. G5 is appropriate in these instances. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 20:09, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

• As a confirmed sockpuppet and topicban breaker, shouldn't AMuseo/Historicist be revoked their special rights visible here and here (but not here), right away by an admins discretion? -DePiep (talk) 20:09, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

I had already indef-blocked AMuseo before finding this discussion, and I think the same should clearly be done to Broad Wall. Perhaps it is less clear cut for Historicist, so I shall wait to allow more discussion. However, my own view is that this account too should be indef-blocked. We have here an editor with a long history of troublesome editing, with a string of blocks and bans extending back over almost two years. Three of the editor's previous blocks were for abuse of multiple accounts or topic ban evasion. If an editor with a history of that sort continues to blatantly evade a topic ban by using other accounts, then I think the time has come to decide "enough is enough". There is no sign that the editor intends to stop defying consensus, and the net loss to Misplaced Pages through the time and effort wasted on continually dealing with this editor's transgressions will far outweigh any gain by letting the editor have yet another chance. (Incidentally, one of the previous blocks was originally indefinite, but reduced to allow the editor another chance.) JamesBWatson (talk) 20:19, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Spartaz is mistaken to say there has been an "absence of recent issues" with regards to Amuseo. The user in question has created a string of problematic articles in recent weeks, all of which were heavily POV, containing numerous misleading statements and even outright flights of fancy, most of which were immediately nominated for AfD and a number of which have already been deleted. I myself had to do a complete rewrite of a couple just to bring them up to a remotely NPOV standard. He did exactly the same kind of thing when he was editing as Historicist.

Amuseo/Historicist is a relentless POV pusher who just wastes huge amounts of other users' time. Certainly his topic ban should remain in place; whether a wider ban should be enacted I will leave to others to judge. Gatoclass (talk) 20:39, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

• I have taken the liberty of removing some material that violates WP:BLPTALK from Amuseo's user page. As can readily be guessed, it related to an individual involved in Israeli-Palestine disputes. This would appear to be another example of the sockpuppet account breaking other guidelines related to the topic ban area, in addition to merely breaking the topic ban itself. I will refrain from making further comments until a little later; I am far from impartial on this since, as a completely new editor, many of my first interactions were with Amuseo, I did my very best to assume good faith, and it is very clear that any such trust placed by me or other members of the community was comprehensively betrayed by this individual. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 21:06, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

(AMuseo's user page has now been replaced with an appropriate tag by another user - I'm also fixing the redlink in my previous comment) --Demiurge1000 (talk) 21:18, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) A couple of thoughts:

• I haven't interacted with this editor myself, but I remember noticing when he was topic-banned, and thinking that he really hadn't done very much to deserve a topic-ban. (Expressing an opinion of a living person in too-strongly worded language on a talk page; but the editor offered to redact the comment, as I recall. It wouldn't have been obvious to me, either, that it was not allowed to express negative opinions about living people on talk pages).
• Looking at the articles that have been linked to above, Café Hillel bombing and Nava Applebaum, both look notable and well-sourced, although the prose in both could use cleaning up to adhere to WP:NPOV.
• From spot-checking some of the user's recent contributions, they all seem constructive.

The question I have is: will blocking this editor, who seems to be a prolific content contributor, improve the encyclopedia? From what I see, it looks to me that this is a basically constructive editor who has gotten tangled up in the wikibureaucracy surrounding the I/P topic area. CordeliaNaismith (talk) 21:36, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

An editor with a long history of troublesome editing, with a string of blocks and bans extending back over almost two years, three of whose previous blocks were for abuse of multiple accounts or topic ban evasion, and who then continues to blatantly evade a topic ban by using other accounts? An editor who made more than eleven thousand edits with the account on which they were first topic banned, and explained this by saying "it takes a while to learn the system" ?

An editor whose comments on what he had learned about that "system", expressed to a newer editor who was being advised by others that bickering with an admin about being blocked was not the right approach, were that "there are several dedicated bullies who get away with murder by the expedient of always being exquisitely polite and never technically violating a rule" ? An editor who continued to mass-produce POV articles often under dubious WP:COATRACK disguises, to the extent that anyone who wanted to avoid such POV material dominating the topic area and other prominent parts of the encyclopedia, was forced to propose and then re-write some or most of each article (just two examples, but I'm sure there are dozens )

An editor who, when a newbie editor (myself) adds a completely neutral note to an AfD (opened by someone else) referencing one of the many POV articles pushed in that manner, describes that newbie editor as "editors who have little more to offer than Misplaced Pages:I just don't like it" and accuses them of "manufacturing arguments" ?

An editor who, right up until he was discovered, was using the user page of one of his sock puppet accounts in flagrant violation of the very clear very first sentence of WP:BLP, in fact concerning a living individual in the topic area from which he had already been banned? (Incidentally I'm not sure if your comment "It wouldn't have been obvious to me, either" referred to the instance of that I removed from his user page today, or if he'd already had action taken against him for a previous breach of that policy - in either case, it's outrageous to suggest that a user with over ten thousand edits, including many on this noticeboard itself, would be unaware of the very first sentence of a key policy.)

An editor who still - after all that refuses to admit that he has done anything wrong? But instead warns (threatens?) the community that ""you cannot ban the entire world, not even the entire university" ?

I would say yes, for an editor like that, the encyclopedia would benefit from saying "enough is enough".

I have a question for you in return. For someone like myself who has relatively recently started using Misplaced Pages, and for whom this is the first other editor with whom I had a serious difference of opinion about content, how do you think it feels to discover that despite my attempts to assume good faith, the other editor was committing a serious breach of trust against the community covering several years? Some of the suggestions made here and elsewhere, leave me feeling that quite a few people really do agree with AMuseo/Historicist's stated view that you can "get away with murder" so long as you never technically violate a rule. People really have actually said his behaviour as AMuseo was somehow "acceptable" and therefore it's all OK. Is it the right message to send to anyone - me or another newbie editor or anyone else - that if your POV doesn't always get top billing, then you should scream and scream until you get warned that you're breaking the rules, then you should break the rules some more until you get blocked, then you should break the rules some more until you get topic banned, then appeal it, then break the rules again, then immediately start up with a sock, then switch socks to another one, and just keep on going? And then when you finally get caught, people will still say "well I think he's a prolific contributor!" If I had a POV I wanted to push on Misplaced Pages, what this would tell me is that by acting in this disruptive manner, in flagrant breach of multiple policies, I could indeed do that for years and still be defended. Do you think this is acceptable? Do you really think it benefits the encyclopedia?

Sorry this was rather long, but as can probably be seen, I feel very very let down and disappointed - and angry. I have paraphrased JamesBWatson in the first sentence but I hope I'm not being unduly repetitious.

--Demiurge1000 (talk) 00:15, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

• For the sake of fairness, his contribution as AMuseo has been praised multiple times in the comments to the Sockpuppet_investigations. --ElComandanteChe (talk) 22:06, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

That praise has all come from I-P conflict partisans. I am quite familiar with this user's contributions since I have had to do a great deal of work to try and clean up his submissions to DYK, I could provide examples of his problematic editing chapter and verse but perhaps a couple of examples will suffice:

• Here is an article recently submitted to DYK for front page exposure by Amuseo. The article contains next to no information about its ostensible topic, and is basically just a WP:COATRACK for listing attacks made by Islamic extremists against Gaza's Christian community. The article repeats references to the same attacks to make them look more numerous, conflates attacks by unidentified militants with the governing authority Hamas in several places, fails to mention that Hamas has strongly condemned attacks against Christians, fails to mention that attacks against Christians in Gaza are "rare" and that the Muslim and Christian communities there have always enjoyed good relations, and fails to mention that the Christian leader murdered there in 2007 was the first such religiously motivated killing of a Christian in living memory. By omitting all such details, Amuseo created a false impression of a Christian community in Gaza under siege from Muslim fanatics, led by Hamas. I was forced to completely rewrite this article, you can compare Amuseo's version with my own.

• As another example, here's just one of Amuseo's recent edits that I had to amend. See if you can find the details added by Amuseo in the original source. Amuseo just fabricated most of these details to make the crime appear as heinous as possible, it's simply a piece of fiction, and this is far from the only edit of this type I have found by this user. Gatoclass (talk) 23:15, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Regarding the second diff I agree that misrepresenting sources is one of the most hugely frustrating things that an editor can possibly do, and I'd like to see, in general, editors being more proactive about challenging assertions for which the sourcing does not match the article text. However, the diff you've cited doesn't seem to be an egregious example of this general problem. I can think of some good-faith explanations for the edit, for example that the details not in the source cited were something that the editor read somewhere else. To be honest, I'm not even sure that the added details make the crime sound more heinous. (The sources describe terrorists murdering 4 people and stealing their bodies with the goal of sabotaging peace talks; does the unsourced assertion that they also planned to give the impression that they had kidnapped live victims really make it sound worse?) In any case, I'd like to hear what Amuseo has to say about it.

So, at least from the diffs you've cited, I don't see evidence of unconstructive work from this editor. The first looks like a good start to an article, the second might well be an honest mistake or a missing source. CordeliaNaismith (talk) 00:36, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Quite frankly, I find it astonishing that anyone would describe such a POV screed as "a good start to an article". I would be ashamed to load something like that into mainspace, and I think most responsible editors would concur. In any case, this wasn't merely a "start" to an article, this was an article he nominated for frontpage exposure via DYK.

When you say the omissions I mention "aren't necessarily obvious facts that an editor would know to include", I can only suppose you didn't read the article sources, because those omissions appear in source after source and could hardly be overlooked. And if you're "not even sure that the added details make the crime sound more heinous", then I must assume you haven't thought about it very hard, because it should be clear to anyone who gave it a moment's thought that the falsehood added by Amuseo makes it appear that Hamas planned to deliberately mislead the families of the victims into believing their loved ones were still alive. It would be hard to excuse such a cavalier misuse of sources even as an isolated incident, but in Amuseo's case there is a consistent pattern of such editing. Gatoclass (talk) 01:39, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

• Several articles by Amuseo were nominated for speedy deletion, under WP:Ban#Bans apply to all_editing, good or bad. As that page is talking about site bans, not topic bans, I have declined the speedy on Café Hillel bombing, which just needed some language changed, on Abu Ubaida (Hamas military leader), which was an unexceptional stub, and on Shawarma restaurant bombing, where the speedy certainly does not apply because it had also been edited by a good faith editor who had made the correct edits to remove the improper POV & the article was presently in his good version. I did delete Jihad and Genocide", an article about an extremist book whose notability seems highly doubtful. I know not everyone will agree with me, so if anyone wants to send the articles to AfD, feel free. DGG ( talk ) 00:43, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

• • So your rationale is that G5 only applies to literal blocks/bans, not indefinite topic bans? That's some pretty interesting hair-splitting/wikilawyering, and not one that other admins share, thankfully, i.e. Nava Appelbaum. I think this interpretation of the speedy deletion criteria needs a larger discussion. Tarc (talk) 01:17, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

I would expect such decisions on speedy are part of the discussion here. That would also prevent using hand picket arguments per article-for-speedy, even contradicting in Café Hillel bombing vs Jihad and Genocide. (BTW, CSD-G5 is only available in Speedy, not in AfD). So the topic-ban evading sockpuppet gets their limelight in POV-pushing after all. -DePiep (talk) 02:47, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

My view is that for notable subjects the procedure of first removing the article and then writing another gives the user the attention. Making use of whatever is usable is DENY. The only admin action I've taken here is to delete one article, and if any admin disagrees with that,I have no objection if they revert it. Declining a speedy isn't even an administrative action, since anyone can do it, and the remedy if one disagrees is AfD. Any good reason for deletion is valid at AfD. The alternative course if you like is to speedy delete again, justifying it by IAR--I have other things I need more to work on and I will not challenge it. This does not apply to Swarma, which just plain does not meet the criterion. DGG ( talk ) 05:07, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

• More misbehaviour from Amuseo - an apparent attempt to canvas a sympathetic editor over a recently opened AfD. Gatoclass (talk) 05:06, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

AMuseo was blocked. Sean.hoyland - talk 05:14, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Well, debate seemed to be ongoing regarding the status of that block. Also, it seems the Historicist account has yet to be blocked, and I thought that issue had yet to be resolved. Gatoclass (talk) 05:44, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Historicist is topic banned, see Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Palestine-Israel_articles#2009 Sean.hoyland - talk 05:53, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I know that, but I was referring to the comment made by jamesbwatson above, when he said: I had already indef-blocked AMuseo before finding this discussion, and I think the same should clearly be done to Broad Wall. Perhaps it is less clear cut for Historicist, so I shall wait to allow more discussion. However, my own view is that this account too should be indef-blocked. No-one seems to have actually addressed that question yet. Does Historicist escape further sanction for circumventing his topic ban via sockpuppetry, or do we maintain the status quo? Unless I missed something, that question wasn't resolved yet. Gatoclass (talk) 06:18, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

I see. Yes, I guess that needs clarifying. For what it's worth, my view is that editors who use sockpuppets in the area covered by the discretionary sanctions should be banned not blocked unless they explicitly agree to comply with mandatory policies at all times and their edits following the agreement demonstrate that that is consistently the case. Sean.hoyland - talk 06:34, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

I'll elaborate on that a bit. There is, in my view, a permissive atmosphere of "the ends justify the means" in the I-P topic area. It's facilitated by editors who don't use sockpuppets but who bat for the same team lending their tacit support to such activity and even praise for the editors who use this strategy and their products. This would not be the case if the sockpuppets were advocating for the 'bad guys'. Those editors would be part of an evil conspiracy to spread lies etc. There would be articles about it in YNet, JPost, INN, etc discussing the terrible corruption of Misplaced Pages, the dishonesty of the bad guys and their propaganda campaigns. Some of them would probably be written by a long term sockpuppeteer. Oddly, there also seems to be an attitude that people who identify these sockpuppets are doing something wrong. It's been going on for years. We could do with a few more bright line rules in the I-P topic area to help people stay on the rails. Sean.hoyland - talk 07:41, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Britney Stevens

There's an article on a pornographic actress. The article gives a link to her web page. Following this link takes you directly to a site showing explicit photographs of penetrative sex. There is no warning or age verification process. You click the link and you see people having intercourse. I removed the link but Epbr123 replaced it siting WP:NOTCENSORED. I understand that Misplaced Pages should not be censored, but nor should it break the law. Allowing minors to view pornography is a criminal offence. What should happen here? Surely we should not break the law, either explicitly or by an omission. If the site warned the viewer that they were about to enter an adult site and asked them to verify their age then we would be in the clear. Where do we draw the line? — Fly by Night (talk) 20:13, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

• We are not hosting the images and there are plenty of explicit images on commons, some of which but by no means all have encyclopaedic value. Basically policy is on the side of the link. Anyone looking at articles of pornstars is clearly going to be aware of the nature of the article and the likely content of any personal sites linked too. Spartaz 20:20, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
• I now have doubts this is actually Britney Stevens official website, so it is best to leave it out. However, if it was her official site, I don't see a problem with linking to it. Epbr123 (talk) 20:23, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
• I think we are breaking the law if we do. Children could navigate onto that page and follow that link. We have to do everything reasonably in our power to make sure no laws are being broken. As the Omission (criminal law) article says: "An omission, or failure to act, will constitute an actus reus and give rise to liability only when the law imposes a duty to act and the defendant is in breach of that duty... A person who creates a dangerous situation may be under a duty to take reasonable steps to avert that danger." By us hosting the link to explicit pornographic material we are creating a danger that a minor may view those images, and so may be under a duty to take reasonable steps to stop a minor viewing those images; otherwise this will give rise to liability. — Fly by Night (talk) 20:36, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

By that argument Commons shouldn't be hosting explicit images, let alone allowing them to be linked to from other Wikimedia projects. – ukexpat (talk) 20:51, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Which Link are we refering to exactly? The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 20:42, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Please notice that the link contains explicit sexual images and should not be viewed by anyone under the legal age in the country of viewing. britneystevens.org — Fly by Night (talk) 20:46, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Like most Males my age having been around these sites at one time or another, I have severe doubts its her site. There is no indication of her awards or way to contact her manager or Talent agent or who ever works for her. I think its a fansite at best, or at worst some one looking to cash in with banner adds with pirated pix. The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 20:55, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

This is not our problem; we don't host that site, and anybody clicking a link to the official site of a porn performer is getting what they expect. No action is needed; take it up with Mike Godwin if you really think it's a concern. --Orange Mike | Talk 20:55, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Hosting the link by itself does not expose us to legal jeopardy in any jurisdiction I am aware of, no. The laws on pornographic content on the Internet are extremely loose and poorly enforced in the first place; there's no law anywhere I know of that linking to it (as opposed to the actual photos) is regulated.

We routinely link porn company, film, and performer articles to the company, film, or person websites. This is normal and accepted. If someone feels the need to filter the internet for their children or to supervise, we don't pretend that we don't link to content they may feel is objectionable. We host content many people feel is objectionable ... There are explicit anatomical photos for most body parts one can think of in the articles, and for many sexual practices we have photos or diagrams thereof. We have a policy - WP:NOTCENSORED

Anyone who needs more filtering needs to use common sense or tools which keep the links from being followed. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 20:58, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Note, though, that the comment that this may not be the artist's own website does raise a troubling concern. If you can substantiate that, that's a real problem and we should undo the link... Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 21:01, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Britnetstevens.net seems far more genuine. It has a "2257" (link is safe for work etc) and the homepage has that "enter/exit" stuff that I assume is required of legal sites. TFOWR 21:09, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

AKMask has reinstated the link to the original "official website". — Fly by Night (talk) 21:18, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

• I've removed it. This series of sites (see links at the bottom of the pages) was widely spammed a while back. There is no way this is a legitimate site. -- zzuuzz 21:20, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
  • Did not see this thread before, just the 'zomg, think of teh children11!1!!' Good call, wont reinsert it. -- ۩ Mask 21:26, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
    • Looking at the archives of Misplaced Pages talk:External links, I see that the "What actually constitutes an official site?" question has come up many times, such as Misplaced Pages talk:External links/Archive 18#How to determine if a site is "official"? and Misplaced Pages talk:External links/Archive 21#Official site? for just two examples. I wonder how many articles on porn actors and actresses in Misplaced Pages have bogus "official sites" drawing WWW surfers to some porn vendor because the person whose article it is does not actually have an official WWW page. … This discussion is better suited to the Village Pump, maybe. Uncle G (talk) 01:22, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Side note

This may or may not be technically the same subject, but several of us got hit with this request today in regard to this Britney Stevens. I haven't the vaguest idea how to answer these questions. Anyone else? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 02:37, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

I received that request myself; that's how I ended up looking at a porn star's article... No, honestly! The same user is asking people about Botswanan television show templates today. I don't think it's anything sinister. — Fly by Night (talk) 08:51, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

You're probably right, it's not sinister, just kind of weird and obscure. Speaking of which, why is that porn stars always have names like Brittany or Jenna or Nicole or such as that? How come you never hear of porn stars named Edna or Gertrude or Ernestine? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 09:53, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) They asked the same question at the help desk, a few minutes earlier. They've been answered, and I'm inclined to agree with Fly by Night - nothing sinister. A bit of patience wouldn't go amiss, however... ;-) (my porn star name is "Gertrude Dulle", and it worked for me!) TFOWR 09:57, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Patience is fine, and I like to try answering when someone asks me something, but those questions were out of my league. Most any name will do if it sounds unique, although guys named "Shorty" are probably at a disadvantage. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 10:11, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

I meant the help desk poster's patience, not yours ;-) All they needed to do was ask in one place and wait - they didn't need to spam you and other editors. TFOWR 10:21, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

I see. It would be kind of funny if everyone who got spammed went to the user's talk page and posted precisely the same advice that was given at the help desk. :) ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 11:08, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Admins Please Assist with Tapioca Express Situation

Some users have been deleting all updated contributions to the Tapioca Express Misplaced Pages article. There were also users adding fluffery and biased view towards the company, but as a third party (tea connoisseur) looking in, I feel there needs to be some fresh unbiased administrative third parties involved. More specifically, there was one user named Tapex, whose contributions were promotional and definitely biased for the company. Yet, on the other extreme a user deleting any and all updates or contributions to the article. Hence, there was edit warring between Tapex and Kuru.
This is where Jayron32 came in to attempt mediating, but instead of contributing to the article, deleted all contributions and brought the article to barebones with very little information; this does not do Misplaced Pages or it's community justice, as one could find more information on this company anywhere else on the internet. This is when I came in to contribute updated information to the article; but at that point, Jayron32 put this article up for deletion, and it has been weeks where the article is not only left with very little information and an image of a rundown, closed down, store, but with a negative deletion box looming over it.
I feel this issue should be resolved as soon as possible, as to not leave an eye sore on Misplaced Pages. Delete it or let it rest and allow users to contribute to the article, but enough with the edit warring and deletion limbo.
Please see Tapioca Express view history and look at my last contribution on October 5, 2010. I feel this is a thorough and well sourced article on the company. Such as including the company logo as the image, instead of any one particular franchise store. Your unbiased, considerate and experienced suggestion and resolutions for this issue would be very much appreciated. Thank you admins. —Preceding unsigned comment added by FrosteaTheSnowman (talk • contribs) 20:48, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

The questions raised on the Article for Deletion page are valid...

Can you provide sources which meet reliable sources policy and which are sufficiently well known to satisfy our company article notability standards, at WP:CORP and generally at WP:N?

Not every small business, even small chains, is worth having a Misplaced Pages article on...

If there is reliable major media coverage of the chain, that's ok. Just provide us the information and citations.

Thank you. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 21:03, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Just dropping in to bitch about not being notified. I must say the above complaint by FrosteaTheSnowman does contain one inaccuracy. I never removed any text from the article. The text was removed by IP 67.188.157.197. Admins can view the text removal here: . My sole two edits to the article were to start the AFD and to return the AFD notice which had been removed. Otherwise, anyone can read the AFD and interpret the results, as based on the comments of the various users. --Jayron32 02:17, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Yep. Marking resolved, I don't think there's anything to do here. Any user is of course welcome to attempt to create an article on the company that asserts more notability. Black Kite (t) (c) 02:22, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

When I saw the section header, I thought maybe it was a tapioca pudding fast food place. No such luck. The only "tapioca express" I ever heard of came when a nearsighted cook accidentally added ipecac instead of vanilla extract. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 02:31, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

FrosteaTheSnowman (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

• Black Kite, you might want to sanction FrosteaTheSnowman for mass spamming (30+kb of nonsense each!) a couple of user on their discussion page. --Dave 17:35, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
  • Indeed. I got a truckload of something, and unfortunately it wasn't tapioca. Frostea seems to have experienced a meltdown. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 18:24, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
• Too bad it got deleted, it actually is a notable chain (~40 locations, most in california, there is industry and business press on it, its just not super easy to find it, and the article was not in good shape). Frostea's newb methods made things worse.--Milowent • 18:50, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
  • I think his best bet would be to reconstruct the article in a sub-page under his ID, and submit it for review. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 18:58, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
    • See User:FrosteaTheSnowman/Tapioca Express. – ukexpat (talk) 21:46, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Administrator Telling Me To Reverse Myself in Deletion Discussion

"Can you please return to that discussion and change your comment" . I don't think that's acceptable,is it? He seems to be overreacting for some reason about a benign photo,the first one I've put into Misplaced Pages, which has already been taken off the article I put it into. If deletion at Commons is appropriate, why does it matter if I still vote that it should be kept? You would think the consensus will be to delete so I fail to see why he would want me to change my vote. It feels odd,to say the least and maybe I am overreacting in which case,please, let me know. Mr.Grantevans2 (talk) 22:47, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

I think I did overreact, to be honest, and am willing to retract. I was asking you to be cautious about copyright and your subsequent action struck me as reckless, but telling you to alter your comment was not necessary. Sorry about that. Paul Erik 22:55, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Thank you very much Paul, no problem and best wishes. Mr.Grantevans2 (talk) 23:00, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Last time I checked, "can you please..." would amount to asking, rather than telling. Jclemens (talk) 00:37, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

... and whatever happened to "discuss with the other person first on their talkpage"?? (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 13:16, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Gents, this was already resolved yesterday through civil discussion. No need to drag it on. –xeno 13:18, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Rangeblock request

See

• 86.157.103.213 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 81.129.194.109 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 81.129.199.233 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 86.132.250.209 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 86.129.105.41 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 86.133.168.12 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 82.71.49.124 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 86.164.244.115 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

and user talk:JzG/nuxx.

The ISP do not seem to be willing to do anything about this. I don't think we are really up for people IP-hopping in order to make edits like http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Guy_Chapman&diff=prev&oldid=388915027 (admins only).

I've also contacted Jimbo and the foundation. Guy (Help!) 22:49, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't want to minimize this, but just the 86.xx addresses there are within a BT /10 net range:

That's all of 86.128.0.0 - 86.191.255.255

That's a lot larger than we're currently allowed / enabled to do rangeblocks on ( /16s at the most ). We'd have to impose 64 separate /16 rangeblocks for the whole range; the 3 subsets (86.157. ; 86.129 - 86.133 ; 86. 164.) would in no way guarantee they can't get more IPs outside those 3 sub-ranges.

I think the CUs have a tool to evaluate the side effects of rangeblock sizes. I don't know what a safe range is within those groupings to go after, from this point looking inwards.

Semiprotect all the pages they're after indefinitely would be easier. A lot easier. If we have to go after them in a permanent way this is going to be a pain in the arse, as it were...

Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 23:29, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

And the BT dynamic ISP range is at least double that - there's 81.128.0.0/10 as well. That's 8 million IP addresses, and a BT user can access pretty much any one of them - I'm on it myself and I've noticed my address moves all over both ranges. The collateral damage would be horrific - I know someone blocked a BT range to hit a well known serial vandal a while back and the unblock list got deluged. The only option here if BT can't help is to semi the pages. The 82.71. IP, by the way, is a different ISP (Zen Internet). Black Kite (t) (c) 00:01, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Christ, what a useless waste of life. I bet his ISP would listen if the Foundation started sending out official complaints. Kindzmarauli (talk) 02:35, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

No, they probably wouldn't give a shit. I'm only with them myself because I live in an isolated rural backwater where their ADSL is the only thing better than dialup. Black Kite (t) (c) 18:33, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

I bet they would if a large number of users complained to the ISP about an IP range being blacklisted and they threatened to drop internet service. And if you think dialup is slow, I've heard there are places in the north woods where the only internet access is via smoke signals. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 19:06, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

I can't see the rev-del'd edits. Is there a broader SPI or something related to this editor? I've identified a few long-term (as in a few years) editors making thousands of vandalism edits on a much smaller range and those rangeblocks can't go through because of the collateral effect. The collateral on a /10 block is enormous. So I'm sorry if I'm being naive here, but is this part of a broader pattern from this person? Shadowjams (talk) 04:03, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

BT ranges are virtually not blockable. Too busy, too active, and too dynamic. Semi-protection is your best bet here. Elockid 23:16, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Not that I think they're listening, but network engineers ought to keep users within limited IP ranges at least for a few weeks at a time (some do) so that we don't have to eventually resort to /10 blocks, particularly if they're not going to respond to complaints. This isn't that case, but in some instances that may happen. There've been some SPI cases where large swaths of Alabama were blocked for a while (might have been hyperbole...). Shadowjams (talk) 04:22, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Montanabw behavior

This is utterly unacceptable. Please block User:Montanabw immediately. 69.3.72.249 (talk) 23:22, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Why is this unacceptable? I don't see anything abusive or harrassing there... If I missed it, please point it out.

Thank you. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 23:31, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

For days now this editor has been following me around to talk pages of other editors and a project, making insinuations and accusations like the one Montanabw has made here (below). GTBacchus has tried to counsel Montanabw to stop doing this. 69.3.72.249 (talk) 23:49, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Please review the talk page and edit history of this anonymous user before any action is taken. I will not be able to develop a complete rebuttal for awhile. This is the second ANI she's filed since beginning to edit (the other was not me). Please also note this anonymous IP's edit history of making multiple move requests and disrupting at least a half dozen articles, as noted in my inquiry to the above user. I made a sincere inquiry of another user who got a little frustrated with this anon's behavior. I see no ANI here. Montanabw 23:33, 5 October 2010 (UTC) Follow up For that matter, please feel free to review my talk page and the full context of the discussion with GTBacchus, which continued on my talk page, now that it's come up. Please also note these two links as well: User_talk:Cgoodwin#With_ya.21|Accusing me of meatpuppetry]] (see also the following two topics on that page, both involving this anon) and ANI on User:KaySL (both of whom I have notified of this ANI thread) and I have also notified User:France3470, as that was the talk page comment that triggered this, User:GTBacchus has been notified by myself and anon 69.3. With the edit referenced above, I was making a simple attempt to build a case against this anon because I had encountered her elsewhere and was seeing a pattern of disruptive move requests. I saw that another user had gotten frustrated and wanted to see if they saw the same pattern I have been seeing. I think this is an experienced user with a block history attempting to game the system by logging in as an anon and manipulating other people into doing the same work of moving articles with minimal or no consensus and "scratching what doesn't itch." It's a waste of time and disruptive to the encyclopedia as a whole. However, I also realize that this user may be, however awkwardly, attempting to exercise a right to disappear, so I am currently hesitant to identify the named user whom I believe this to be. For now, I am content to allow this anon to only be evaluated on their behavior since they began editing about a month ago. Montanabw 02:05, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Excessive move, disambiguation, and rename requests that are unfounded are disruptive, and especially when there is a tendency to be tendentious about them as this anon has been. I suggest, based on the pattern of behavior of this anon, that a CU is in order, as this pattern has been seen before from other anons and from user:Una Smith. Montanabw is a fine editor who has been harassed by Una (and anons that were, or were likely to be) Una before. It may not be Una this time, but that's not the way to bet in my view. If there's a block needed here, it's not of Montanabw, IMHO. ++Lar: t/c 02:00, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree with GWH and I also think ANON IP 69... has this backwards, we should be looking at he more than Montanabw I think. ANON IP 69 seems to have an interest in medicine, animals (I see a lot of pig related edits), and move requests. This is eerily similar to User:Una Smith. I think this is bad faith nom and this and prior disruption warrants a block of ANON IP 69. — Rlevse<> • Talk • 02:02, 6 October 2010 (UTC)