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Arbitrators active on this case

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Discussion

This is the place for the normal discussion that accompanies a proposed decision. This section, to be used once the proposed decision has been posted, is for free-form, threaded discussion, starting new topics in a new section below. No word limit, but clerks and arbitrators will moderate excessive, contentious or off-topic discussions. Clicking "new section" above should produce a subsection within this section.

Proposed principles

Archived discussions at: /Discussion of decision#Proposed principles

If anyone wants to, just start a new discussion about a specific section of "Proposed principle" with the numbering used on the Proposed Decision page, and add the new section here in the same order, rather than at the bottom. Please include the principle numbering when you create a subsection title here. Carcharoth (talk) 13:27, 29 August 2010 (UTC) Originally proposed by JohnWBarber, modified by me later.

Proposed findings of fact

Archived discussions at: /Discussion of FoFs1 and /Discussion of FoFs2

If anyone wants to, just start a new discussion about a specific section of "Finding of fact" with the numbering used on the Proposed Decision page, and add the new section here in the same order, rather than at the bottom. Please include the finding of fact numbering when you create a subsection title here, and please do not discuss remedies here. Carcharoth (talk) 13:27, 29 August 2010 (UTC) Originally proposed by JohnWBarber, modified by me later.

5 Sockpuppetry in the Climate Change topic area (Scibaby)

I'm broadly satisfied with the way the arbitration seems to be going and I'm very grateful that the arbitrators have devoted a very large amount of time and effort to trying to resolve this complex and entangled dispute.

One area that bothers me, though, is the treatment of Scibaby, which I think is represented in the current proposed finding, to wit:

Since 2006, the articles in the Climate Change topic area have been subject to persistent, repeated insertion of contentious unsourced material as well as other comparatively non-controversial edits by a now-banned editor known as Scibaby, who has created hundreds of accounts. (Long-term abuse report) The pervasive disruption has negatively affected the editing climate within the topic area, and IP editors and those with few edits outside of the topic area are frequently challenged or reverted without comment. In several cases, non-controversial edits made within editing policies and guidelines (e.g., using more neutral language or tone) have resulted in "Scibaby" blocks because a word or phrase has been used by Scibaby in the past, and editors have been threatened with blocking for reinstating otherwise reasonable edits that have been identified as originating from a likely Scibaby sockpuppet. Efforts to reduce Scibaby's impact have had their own deleterious effects, with large IP range blocks preventing new editors from contributing to any area of the project, edit filters having a high "false positive" result, and a significant proportion of accounts (20-40% by current checkuser estimates) blocked as Scibaby subsequently determined to be unrelated. This does not negate the fact that there have been hundreds of accounts correctly identified.

The bolded text doesn't seem correct to me, though historically it may have had some factual basis.

Here's a summary for the month of January:

On January 1, 2010, 5 editors were listed as suspected Scibaby socks. All were confirmed, and all were tagged and blocked by Checkuser J.delanoy.

On January 5, 2010, 8 editors were listed as suspected Scibaby socks. 7 were confirmed by Checkuser Alison, and all 7 of those were tagged, and they were blocked by admin NuclearWarfare. Alison reviewed one of them and decided she had erred in one case. He was unblocked.

On January 7, 2010, 8 editors were listed as suspected Scibaby socks. All were confirmed by Alison and blocked by NuclearWarfare.

On January 8, 2010, 2 editors were listed as suspected Scibaby socks. Alison confirmed both and added 1 more. 2 admins blocked them.

On January 9, 2010, 4 editors were listed as suspected Scibaby socks. J.delanoy confirmed and blocked 2 of them.

On January 16, 2010, 3 users and one IP were listed as suspected Scibaby socks. J.delanoy confirmed 2 and they were blocked by NuclearWarfare. Another was found to have a sock which had not been listed, but was not apparently related to Scibaby. Neither of the latter was blocked.

On January 22, 2010, 1 IP and 1 user were listed as suspected Scibaby socks. Alison confirmed the user as a sock of Scibaby, and listed 4 other socks she had found. She said "no comment" on the IP. Stephan Schulz blocked all 4 Scibaby socks.

On January 25, 2010, 1 user was listed as a suspected Scibaby sock. Alison confirmed it and suggested that a rangeblock might be appropriate. The user was blocked by Amory, and later Alison applied a rangeblock to 24.205.128.0/19, "as there's very little else other than Scibaby on there."

On Januay 28, 2010, 2 editors were listed as suspected Scibaby socks. Alison confirmed both and added a third. They were blocked by 2 admins.

On January 29, 2010, 1 user was listed as a suspected Scibaby sock. It was confirmed by Alison and blocked by Amory Meltzer.

On January 30, 2010, 1 editor was listed as a suspected scibaby sock. Alison confirmed it and Amory Meltzer blocked it.

On January 31, 2010, 3 editors were listed as suspected Scibaby socks. The admin Prolog blocked 1 as an obvious sock to prevent further disruption, "It's definitely Scibaby." The admin Mastcell blocked another as "an obvious match" with one of the reported suspected socks. Checkuser Luna Santin confirmed all of them and added another. They were all blocked.

This seems to show a pattern of highly reliable sock spotting, confirmed by separate Checkusers. Only one instance of mistaken identification has been detected for the whole month. Assuming this was not some fluke "lucky" month, the data does not corroborate the characterization in the proposed finding.

Could I ask the arbitrators to please take a closer look at this and consult the Checkusers to see if they agree with it? --TS 00:15, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

I'd also appreciate it if the Arbs could address Tony's question. The 20-40% false-positive rate doesn't agree with my general impression, nor does it agree with Tony's compiled data. I understand that the 20-40% figure includes rangeblocks, and while I agree that overzealous rangeblocks were highly problematic, I think more clarity in this regard would be helpful, because the 20-40% figure can be (and indeed has already been) used as ammunition against the small and shrinking handful of editors who actually handle this prolific sockpuppetry. MastCell  03:31, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree. I looked over the first few months of 2010 a while back, and found the data very much more consistent with Tony's description than with a 20-40% error rate. ArbCom should also be careful to distinguish between wrongly suspected users, and users caught in range blocks, as these are caused by separate processes and people. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 07:00, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Are people here reading Risker's clarification (from early September) in that remedy? It seems to explain how the numbers was derived, in particular the 40% was from last year, the 20% this year which suggests things have improved but we still have a way to go. Perhaps what's being proposed here (or should be proposed here) is that some of that is summarised in the finding? Nil Einne (talk) 16:07, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

The finding should, in particular, highlight that the rate at which editors identify Scibaby socks does not have 20-40% false positives, nor did it ever have them. How many legitimate contributors are caught in range blocks is a different question. Moreover, there seems to be an implicit assumption that any sock not confirmed by CU is a false positive. That is, of course fallacious. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 16:18, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

According to a discussion on Carcharoth's talk page, the figure comes from a report that discussed Raul654's checkuser-based rangeblocking, which ended in July, 2009 according to his admin log. If so then the Committee really does need to update its finding to describe what has happened in the intervening year, which appears to me to be sock puppet handling performed to commendable standards. --TS 01:05, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

And if you could keep such discussion here in future, and not take it to my talk page, that would be good, Tony. The section you raised this in on my talk page was nothing to do with Scibaby and I've separated out what you said there (and the responses, none of which were by me) to its own section, but really it would be best if you hatted that discussion on my talk page and directed people here instead. Carcharoth (talk) 06:14, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Sockpuppetry in the Climate Change topic area

This finding of fact includes the following clause: "a significant proportion of accounts (20-40% by current checkuser estimates) blocked as Scibaby subsequently determined to be unrelated." Please confirm that this sentence is accurate. I will, as usual, only respond to AC (or active checkusers). Hipocrite (talk) 00:56, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Please note that this question is addressed in more detail in another section above. --TS 01:02, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

And, as stated above, that's a ballpark figure. Which is why it says "estimates". What is your point? — Coren  02:59, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

The January stats posted by Tony above implies that the real number is about an order magnitude lower for those actually blocked. I think that's significant enough... NW (Talk) 03:03, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

The analysis (by Tony) may be taking the wrong approach, and seems to be too small a sample in any case (a better approach would be to identify the numbers unblocked and extrapolate from that to estimate how many people didn't bother to ask to be unblocked). I'm not that comfortable with the 20-40% figure either (though see Risker's explanation of it on the PD), mainly because any percentage needs to give the numbers involved as percentages can be misleading, but I am satisfied that there has been an over-reaction to Scibaby, and that, rather than specific percentages, is the key point here. It is difficult to deal with Scibaby-like issues, but the point that we are trying to make here is that more care when looking at such issues, and less collateral damage is needed, not more damage or quibbling over numbers. Carcharoth (talk) 05:53, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for your response. I believe that the 20% and 40% figures are about range blocks, not about "accounts blocked as Scibaby," which the PD states they are about. Could you confirm that is correct? If it is correct, shouldn't it be made accurate? Hipocrite (talk) 06:50, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

It's easy (and correct) to say that more care is needed in dealing with Scibaby, and less collateral damage. But those statements are vague to the point of uselessness. Do we need to show more care in applying rangeblocks? Because that's already happened, I think. Do the people who currently report and/or block Scibaby sockpuppets need to show more care? That's not clear to me from the finding, because it seems to be based on outdated figures, which are confusingly billed as "current" checkuser estimates.

It might be helpful to have more specifics about how you (the Committee) would like to see this sockpuppetry handled, because right now the whole thing is a gigantic Catch-22 and a trap for the people who care enough to deal with the problem. People standing on the sidelines are all too happy to use the false-positives as a handy bludgeon - and the 20-40% number will feed into this tendency, unfairly. That's my concern, and I don't think it's a quibble about numbers. MastCell  17:43, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Anyone? MastCell  20:37, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Mastcell, I share your concerns that the proposed finding at present may err on the side of maligning the people who are presently working on handling the sock puppetry, without giving criticism that can be understood and acted upon. The arbitrators know they're not there to pontificate, but to make sure problems are resolved going forward, and I see some signs that they're going to move to strike some of the problematic text. I think that would go a long way towards addressing my concerns. I think it would have been better if the Committee had recognised that some of the criticisms are unconstructive. It would be perverse to make poor material placed by a suspected sock more difficult to handle than poor material placed in good faith. --TS 20:46, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

A check of Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Scibaby/Archive for April (a random relatively recent month where I participated in adminning this topic area but little) and September (the most recent month for which data are available) shows seven and five distinct sets of Scibaby reports being opened, respectively. A breakdown by date of initial report follows (length of time a report was open maps pretty well onto date of next report):

Ignoring the sleepers as just icing, for April we have 8 people reporting 36 confirmed active Scibaby sockpuppets, 9 socks in various sets not necessarily related to each other or Scibaby, 1 probable open proxy, one set of range blocks, and two unconfirmed accounts who were never tagged or blocked. For September, we have 2 people reporting 34 socks with perfect accuracy. This gives a confirmation rate of 36/48 (75%) or 46/48 (96%) for April, not counting collateral damage from the range blocks. Even with this little collateral damage (the two unconfirmed reports were likely never aware of the SPI case, though I cannot comment on activity from the ranges blocked), I am happy to see the PD acknowledge that it exists. It always hurts the project, and people should keep unintended consequences in mind when dealing with sock puppetry. I would, however, be happier if the parenthetical in the second to last sentence of Sockpuppetry in the Climate Change topic area, (20-40% by current checkuser estimates), were dropped or reworded. That sentence already acknowledges that range blocks are a blunt tool. It might also be better to use the more ambiguous some in place of the more loaded a significant proportion, especially as we are not dealing in statistical significance here. I am also not familiar with any edit filter actually being implemented in this case; if they have been only proposed but not implemented due to a high rate of false positives during the testing phase, that clause should be reworded. - 2/0 (cont.) 23:12, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

@Carcharoth, above - none of the accounts listed for April or September of this year have been unblocked, or even requested it. This includes a fair number of WP:DUCK blocks. While appreciating the acknowledgment of the difficulty involved here, I would like to second MastCell's request for some guidance. I intend on continuing to ignore this particular problem, but it is about to get worse; also, if I had any more useful advice for dealing with this sockmaster I would already have given it. It may be that a discussion at WT:SPI or somewhere would be a better venue than here, though. - 2/0 (cont.) 23:31, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

The concerns raised here about this statistic being used elsewhere are not idle. I received an email concerning an unrelated sock issue which quoted the figure as an example. This finding does not link to the analyses that it's based upon, and does not distinguish individual blocks from range blocks. I agree that this finding may be counterproductive for dealing with the overall problem of sock accounts.   Will Beback  talk  20:12, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree that this matter should be taken care of with some urgency, as the case is set to close. --TS 20:54, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

I wonder if anyone has considered that most people being shown the door at a restaurant (for example) do not return - perhaps some who are "shown the door" at WP do not engage in clearing their name, but simply leave permanently? The use of "the usual" as a rationale for blocking is clearly deficient per ArbCom findings. Collect (talk) 21:09, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

That's a good argument against sock puppet investigations. Misplaced Pages isn't going to stop using sock puppet investigations because of this case. On the substantive statement, obviously if anybody has ever used "the usual" in their blocking statement they were doing it wrong. Did they? --TS 21:14, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

(bit offtopic)Prolog is doing extremely good work here, and should receive recognition for it. He is likely to burn out though, if no one is helping. Best case is to just turn in for CU, not tag or block, then if they are false positives, they will never have noticed - that was my MO on these. (obviously i couldn't block :-) --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 21:27, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

• Some commentary here. First off, a lot of the speculation in this thread is based on the assumption that Scibaby checkuser requests and blocks are almost exclusively related to SPIs; according to the checkusers I spoke with, this isn't necessarily the case. Several checkusers reported receiving private requests, some of which led to checks and some of which led to blocks or alternately lifting of blocks, and many of them weren't formally tagged "Scibaby". Secondly, there is an assumption that all of the excessive range blocks were the work of a single checkuser; they weren't, and it's taken quite a while to change that "culture" amongst checkusers and administrators. Luckily, many checkusers had never got in the habit of making long range blocks for "nuisance" sockers (Scibaby is a nuisance, and is nowhere near as destructive as several other sockpuppeters), and few administrators make lengthy range blocks without discussing them with checkusers in advance, so we had a running chance at fixing this issue. It's taken time to change this behaviour, though, and we do see periodic resurgences (not necessarily associated with Scibaby). In the interests of reducing the grumbling about this section, however, I am going to reword the Finding of Fact. Risker (talk) 01:11, 11 October 2010 (UTC) Addendum: There was a "Scibaby" edit filter until fairly recently; however the administrator who created it and monitored it advises me that, despite numerous tweaks, it still gave a 70-80% false positive count. That was with the edit filter only screening edits from non-autoconfirmed users on specific articles. The terms that are most closely associated with Scibaby, it seems, aren't particularly special or unique. The fact that accounts blocked as Scibaby don't demand unblocking is irrelevant; most new users who are blocked don't request unblocking, regardless of the reason they were blocked. Risker (talk) 01:16, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

I was unaware of much of that, and I deeply appreciate your clarification. I am satisfied with the new wording, thank you. - 2/0 (cont.) 07:42, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

18 Cla68 battlefield conduct

I suggest adding to the findings of fact Cla68's battlefield conduct on the climate change request for enforcement page:

• Tendentious complaint against William M. Connelley, closed as "no case to answer."

• "Notice of formal request to William M. Connelley." Cla68 abused the RfE page, and added unnecessary drama, by first "formally" requesting that WMC cease editing an article, and then repeating that "formal request" at the RfE page. Clerk notation: "Cla68, you are free to ask WMC to do anything you like. That does not mean that he has to listen to you, nor does it necessitate a post on this page. If you wish to request enforcement on this matter, please use the standard form at the top of this page to do so."

--ScottyBerg (talk) 14:09, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

I think that it might be interesting to some of the arbcom if I pointed out some of Cla68 apparent battlefield conduct outside the CC area. Perhaps helping to establish a pattern of behavior on Cla68's part that would make a contentious area like CC only worse. Cla68 has made threats and scolded other editors. I can see the possibility that some might consider these three incidents as Cla68 making rather pointy but still good faith efforts to improve other editors behavior. What Cla68 did against me though I don't see how it can possibly be interpreted as good faith. Here Cla68 tells a brazen total lie to Arbcom giving false testimony that I claimed that a particular person claimed a degree from Warren National University. He told this falsehood in an attempt to get Arbcom to ban my editing on the Warren National University article. I proved here with google searches on my website that Cla68's unsupported assertion was a brazen falsehood. I also linked to archive.org links to my website from the past and invited Cla68 to point out where he read the claims that I had supposedly made. Cla68 has never been able to give a good faith explanation for his totally false assertion. Bill Huffman (talk) 21:59, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

16 ATren's battlefield conduct

ATren has expressed concern about the finding on his conduct in the topic area, but he focuses on some instances in which he repeatedly tries to deter uninvolved admins from acting in the area. This is fully documented, alongside other problematic behavior, in the evidence submissions of 2over0 and Hipocrite. It isn't some new evidence. Others stood aghast for months while ATren seemed to be doing his best to prevent the probation from working at all except on his terms.

In January the community expressly granted uninvolved admins discretion to take action in the topic area. This doesn't mean ATren couldn't express his concerns, but he set about it in entirely wrong way, by brow-beating admins, and by numerous failures to assume good faith. This is consistent with much of the rest of his engagement in the topic area, which was at times so partisan and divisive as to deter those who support his causes.

That's the problem: approaching an issue in a way that exacerbates it. Tasty monster (=TS ) 17:54, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't see how pointing out - politely - to various admins that may be misusing their powers is classified as "uncivil". (Have you looked at the "uncivil" diffs?) Part of the normal checks and bounds that we claim makes Misplaced Pages function. Instead, a topic ban? --Michael C. Price 18:10, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Accusations of bias are assumptions of bad faith (no matter how much the person saying it says its not, which is in and of its self disingenuous) as such may be seen as PA’s. Also accusations of bullying and baiting (telling other users to ‘back off’, which is hardly diplomatic language, is a bit aggressive) can be seen as more assumptions of bad faith. Moreover having said that an admin was policing fine when that admin makes a decision that this user aggress with, when it’s a decision he disagrees with the attitude changes to one of accusations of bias, a clear indicator that the user is not judging based on merit (or lack of it) But on the bias of the banned user (and the support this users has for that POV).In normal situations it is not problematic but may have (and I would argue has) helped top contributed to the general deterioration of attitude and behaviour on the CC related pages.Slatersteven (talk) 18:36, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

No, absolutely not: Accusations of bias are not assumptions of bad faith. Bias is mostly unconscious and is (usually) conducted in good faith - that's why it is a problem, and that's why it needs to be pointed out, and why it should be addressed and not have the messenger shot. --Michael C. Price 19:20, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

by brow-beating admins, and by numerous failures to assume good faith. There are instances of this with other editors regarding Lar: Stephan Schulz and Short Brigade Harvester Boris come to mind, and those instances were personal attacks. I can find the diffs if asked. I previously thought ArbCom was looking for something more than a couple of personal attacks for a finding of fact, but given the intolerance of ArbCom for any of my own errors, or errors by ATren or AQFK, perhaps ArbCom would welcome similar proposals regarding these or other editors. I can only think of one instance with Stephan Schulz (the "milliLar" comment already in evidence somewhere), and I read Boris' multiple comments on Lar on Boris' talk page. For hours today, I've been going through some tangled page histories to finish my response in my own case, and I'm not keen on dragging in other editors for what may be brief violations, but if ATren is sanctioned for direct requests to admins to consider their conduct and withdraw from the case, then other, nastier forms of this should be brought forward. It hurts ArbCom's credibility to be sanctioning some editors while treating editors with similar or worse conduct without sanctions. If ArbCom is presented with this kind of evidence, arbitrators should be able to explain what the difference is or put new sanctions on the page. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 19:05, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

JWB, the evidence of personal attacks against Lar was summarized nicely here. I pointed this out to Shell, but she ignored it. ATren (talk) 19:11, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

The diffs against me were taken completely out of context and took no account as to whether my warnings to those admins had merit. Here is the context:

• I warned Fut.Per. when he was threatening a user with a block for creating a userspace draft (even BozMo agreed it was unusual). Here is a permalink to the section: . Here is a sampling of FPAS's tone on that thread (all emphasis mine): "reckless disregard for NPOV... disruptive... such shenanigans cannot be tolerated.... If I see you recklessly pushing your POV in a manner like this once more, you will be indef-blocked...The warning stands, and is extended to you too, since I see you aided and abetted in writing that draft...any rational observer, by applying simple common sense, should recognise as obviously unacceptable... If anybody did take it seriously, they must be caught in patterns of magical thinking on the intellectual level of a ten-year-old, or they must be in a state where they allow their political agendas to get the better of their rational judgment in a rather extreme way. In either case, they should not be Misplaced Pages editors....He flouted the rules deliberately."

  All of this was in response to a user space draft of an article that still exists. But I am being sanctioned for telling him to "back off".

• Here is the sequence of events that led to my warning to TOAT: (all emphasis mine)
  1. WMC provoked a conflict when he collapsed a section on a talk page, sarcastically calling it "another sterile debate" and with the provocative comment "I wonder if I can get away with this" . This seems to be a clear case of disruption and battleground editing.
  2. ZuluPapa5, who was participating in the discussion which was collapsed, complained on the enforcement talk page (though, as was typical of ZP5, his complaint was cryptic).
  3. TOAT responded by hatting ZP5's section with the comment "unnecessary griefing" and put a stern warning on ZP5's talk: "This is a final warning that if you choose to further abuse the probation talk pages with namecalling and other attacks, I will ask for enforcement action regarding your own conduct in this area.".
  4. After some mild back and forth, TOAT again warned ZP5 in a comment filled with bad faith: "Gaming WP:NPA this way doesn't work, just so you know... hounding him (WMC). Moving the hounding and attacks to another location isn't an acceptable response.... you're far past the point where any sort of informal engagement with WMC is going to be productive.... Oh, and I've deleted your creation of WP:WASTEOFTIME. Don't pull a stunt like that again.".
  5. TOAT's response to WMC (the editor who provoked the conflict) was as follows: "I think that ZuluPapa is best ignored from here on in. I've warned him in no uncertain terms that attempting to goad you on the probation enforcement talk page is out of bounds, and that if he has any complaints he should use an appropriate venue rather than passive-aggressively lobbing insults. He's pretending that the probation talk page is equivalent to your talk page; I would recommend not letting him redefine reality that way. I would expect that the admins reading the talk page there are well aware of the members of the mutual support chorus by now, and I suspect that the best way to discourage their trolling is to not rise to the bait. (I know it's difficult.) Best wishes, "

     My response to TOAT after this episode was a single comment on his talk telling him I found his actions "highly inappropriate", and that's now presented as evidence of my battleground behavior.

• I warned 2/0 mainly for defending WMC. In case anyone is interested, below is the evidence I had collected against 2/0, and which I never presented because I thought 2/0 and I had settled it. I was even supportive of 2/0's participation later; I only objected to his perplexing defense of WMC. See hatted section below (I originally posted this to Shell's talk -- she ignored it):

All these warnings given to various people by ATren remind me of a point I made early in this PD discussion, here. I hope that whichever version of the discretionary sanctions remedy passes will be clear on this issue. --Nigelj (talk) 19:59, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

That's a very good point and I've added it to Remedy 1.2 (the one currently passing). Roger Davies 20:09, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

So how are ATren's "warnings" more disruptive than repeated personal attacks, Roger? (If this has been pointed out already, please just tell me where.) Perhaps we should display ATren's comments with links side by side with comments and links from the proposals or evidence for Stephan Schulz or Boris and the discrepancy in ArbCom's treatment will become clearer. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 21:19, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

'So how are ATren's "warnings" more disruptive than repeated personal attacks?' That's a bit beside the point, really. They're obviously less disruptive than dropping a piano on somebody's foot, to introduce another random comparator.

And in fact I'd argue that they were not particularly disruptive as they were mostly ignored. But the finding is battleground behavior. And that's what they appear to be. --TS 21:39, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

I've been moving around heavy furniture all weekend, so your bringing up dropping pianos is a sore point with me that I wish you would drop. If an editor in this case dropped a piano on the foot of another editor in connection with Misplaced Pages climate change articles, I would expect a finding of fact, a remedy and a call to the police (well, actually an indefinite block, but never mind). What we may well have is evidence of worse behavior by other editors. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 00:02, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

I mean, worse than ATren's, not worse than dropping pianos. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 00:04, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Reading ATren's hatted evidence above is a facepalm. ATren should not have been castigated for questioning the admin's impartiality under such circumstances. I hope that we will have a better level of impartial adminning in future, and that editors who point out such failings in Misplaced Pages processes will be thanked, rather than ignored, or accused of "battleground" tactics and disruption. --JN466 00:40, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Indeed, whisteblowers should applauded, not banned. Unfortunately the arbs' attitude seems to be, "He needed banning, what does it matter if the charges are trumped up." --Michael C. Price 13:22, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

This is al very exciting; it throws up Jaymax's Good grief you wind me up WMC. Someone who knew to use search might, for example, more reliably search on 'non-peer-reviewed', to see what the rules are for, umm, non-peer-reviewed literature, you condescending twat; (FWIW, I don't see how I'm being much less civil than you here, just more concise). . Any arbs got time for another FoF? William M. Connolley (talk) 13:15, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Incidentally, the problem being danced around here is that ZP5 has, indeed, made absolutely no productive edits to the Cl Ch pages at all; but has caused a certain amount of pointless disruption William M. Connolley (talk) 13:15, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Proposed remedies

Archived discussions at: /Discussion of decision#Proposed remedies

If anyone wants to, just start a new discussion about a specific section of "Proposed remedy" with the numbering used on the Proposed Decision page, and add the new section here in the same order, rather than at the bottom. Please include the remedy numbering when you create a subsection title here, and please discuss the associated findings in their own sections above. Carcharoth (talk) 14:03, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

JohnWBarber (remedies)

JWB appears to be the only individual with a battelfield finding of fact without a cooresponding topic ban currently being considered. Is this intentional? As usual, I will respond only to members of AC. Hipocrite (talk) 12:20, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Nope, the placeholder just hadn't been filled in yet (my fault). Thanks for the reminder. Shell 19:35, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Proposed enforcement

Archived discussions at: /Discussion of decision#Proposed enforcement

If anyone wants to, just start a new discussion about a specific section of "Proposed enforcement" with the numbering used on the Proposed Decision page, and add the new section here in the same order, rather than at the bottom. Please include the enforcement numbering when you create a subsection title here. Carcharoth (talk) 13:17, 29 August 2010 (UTC) Originally proposed by JohnWBarber, modified by me later.

New proposals

Archived proposals can be found at /New proposals, /New proposals2 and /New proposals3

Please remember to sign all new proposals made. Alternatives to existing proposals are best posted above in a section discussing that proposal. Please keep all disucssion on-topic to the proposal and don't drift off-topic into discussing other proposals. Carcharoth (talk) 14:48, 29 August 2010 (UTC) This replaces the previous discussion.

Proposed new finding of fact - JohnWBarber

Now that there is an FoF on this editor, can we take off the hat so that it can be seen? Editors may have more to add too since I know I wasn't finished with adding one more to what I added. Thanks in advance, --CrohnieGal 14:25, 2 October 2010 (UTC) As per the discussion below I would like finish adding the difs I wanted to add prior to the hatting. , , , and . Thank you for the advice below about adding this here. This is all I am going to say about this matter. I hope the arbitrators will look at the difs provided in this section and make there own decisions as to whether any of them are useful to add to the FoF on the PD page. (Notation: I tried adding the difs and and error message came up and I lost everything, so I tried to give them again.) Thanks again, --CrohnieGal 14:15, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Initial response:

• Shell, you didn't do a good job at looking at the context at all in this diff, (Diff #3) which was followed about half an hour later with discussion on the editor's talk page and an apology from me (for context, I think this is the full talk-page discussion on the editor's talk page ; these two short sections on my talk page integrate into that discussion) a bit over an hour later with this diff on that page (see edit summary, I think other changes had been reverted back). I immediately saw I was in the wrong and apologized to Nsaa, although I did want that lead unchanged until the ongoing discussion on the article talk-page was over. You know, Shell, this points to a broader problem: When dealing with KDP and Hipocrite and some other extremely difficult editors such as Active Banana on that page (do you want a dozen diffs on that? two dozen? I can provide them, but perhaps links to the discussions will give the best context), at some point a normal person without superhuman patience will blow off some steam. It matters very much whether (1) the person was goaded, intentionally or unintentionally, by the behavior of others; (2) how rare the occurence is; (3) whether or not the person calms down and either gets back to efforts to come to a consensus or walks away; (4) if the person has been uncivil, whether the person apologizes. These are important considerations that I don't see arbitrators explicitly considering, and so I'm left to wonder whether or not you do consider them. The bottom line here is whether or not the effect of my participation on various pages was to help reach consensus or prevent it,and whether, if I was tending to prevent it or otherwise hurt the process, my actions rose to the level worth ArbCom's consideration). Since you're not looking for punishment but to prevent future bad conduct, you should be clear about whether or not you think some kind of ArbCom sanction is needed to prevent the same or similar conduct from me in the future. I don't have time right now to look through more diffs, but I will. My memory is that I didn't promote a battleground atmosphere, but if any edits show that I did, I'll acknowledge that, apologize and we'll see how much of that promoting there is. In the past, whenever editors I regard as sincere and not looking for a fight have criticized any edit of mine, I've looked into the matter and rectified it if I found any conduct I couldn't defend. That's happened with Jehochman, Franamax and 2/0. (I'll get the diffs and put them here.) You even acknowledge that this may not gain a great deal of support being rather difficult to quantify with diffs. It gets more difficult the more you look into the diffs. If it's difficult to see in the diffs, explanation on this page or on the PD page really is in order.added material starting with the italicized quote and ending here. Forgot to add this before. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 17:34, 2 October 2010 (UTC) Corrected diff at beginning of this post and gave it a number -- JohnWBarber (talk) 02:10, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
• Other ArbCom members: I expect that out of fairness you will either refrain from voting until I've made my case or consider your vote tentative until the discussion is over. I expect a bunch of angry editors to post a bunch of diffs (inaccurate and worse than inaccurate), and (as briefly as possible) I will respond to every single one of them, no matter how many there are, no matter how long it takes. If ArbCom members tell me particular diffs are not worth my response, in order to cut down the discussion size, I'm happy to ignore them and focus on what you're interested in.
• It's possible to take anything out of context, and it's possible to find at least minor violations in any editor's contributions history.
• This is a busy weekend for me. I'll be in and out today and tomorrow and have more time for this starting Sunday night. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 16:01, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

I am not involved in the editing of the articles but I feel that an FoF on you is just as important as they are on others who as you way and I quote, "It's possible to take anything out of context, and it's possible to find at least minor violations in any editor's contributions history." I think this also applies to others who have FoF's where you have put difs against them. I'm sorry but you can't have it one way for others and a different way for you. Please, would a arbitrator unhat the above FoF so that difs may be added? John I feel that your behavior on this page has been in battle mode against some editors. This is of course my personal opinion but I think I have the right to present what I've seen and you have the right to dispute it. I'm sorry about this, I have no feelings about you from any previous interactions, though I don't remember any between the two of us. I could be wrong, and if I am, show me a dif of it please, thanks in advance. I think that if some of the difs above are added to the PD page, more support may be of available. Thank you for your time to read this, --CrohnieGal 18:16, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

Crohnie, you can add diffs even if it's not unhatted. ScottyBerg (talk) 18:30, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

Really? Though I think it being unhatted would be better now that there is an FoF on the PD page and Barber is disputing it, I will do that if it becomes necessary. I have like three or four I would like to bring to the arbitrators attention. Thanks for letting me know ScottyBerg, really appreciate knowing. --CrohnieGal 20:08, 2 October 2010 (UTC) Thank you I've added them. --CrohnieGal 14:15, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't see why not. I agree with you about the hatting. ScottyBerg (talk) 20:36, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

• Evidently JWB formerly edited under the account "User:Noroton." That account has a lengthy block record for incivility, edit warring and abuse of multiple accounts that should be included in the FoF. Given this past record, my feeling is that an extensive or indefinite block may be warranted as a remedy. ScottyBerg (talk) 20:36, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

• His other accounts that he used, I believe there are four not counting this one, should be listed as history of his account like was done with other editors. His account User:CountryDoctor was blocked for multiple accounts, User:Reconsiderationis his account that he uses when on an unsecured computer, and User:Picabu. He also has another account for the WikiCommons called User:Amg37. That leaves the User:Noroton account which was blocked multiple times for WP:Civil, WP:TE, WP:Disruptive editing, multiple accounts, WP:3RR. Yes, I think this all needs to be addressed. Even though these accounts apparently go back to 2008, what we've seen here now is uncivil behavior, tendentious editing, and disruptive editing. I haven't looked at the block log of his account he now uses, Barber, but I will. I have RL calling me again so I have to go. I agree with ScottyBerg right now but I'll see if I change my mind after some more checking. I hope the arbitrators are also checking. The more eyes the better in my opinion. Thanks, --CrohnieGal 21:23, 2 October 2010 (UTC) (Made correction per comment from 2/0) --CrohnieGal 16:30, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Quick quibble: Reconsideration2 (talk · contribs) is JWB's account for use on public computers, according to his user page. - 2/0 (cont.) 21:47, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, you are correct about this, I named the wrong account. Thanks again, --CrohnieGal 14:15, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

• For anyone really interested in my last block: It went to ArbCom because I took it there (the best, quickest summary is in my comment marked "@Coren"). It's worth noting that the blocking admin, VersaGeek, told ArbCom that if she had to do it over again, she wouldn't have blocked me (see second bullet ). ArbCom's response was that I should go to an ArbCom subcommittee, WP:AUSC which hemmed and hawed and made me wait months because certain information was private. By the time I got through that, I was too exhausted with the process to take it back to ArbCom and demand that ArbCom, after all they put me through, have the decency to state that the stated reason for the block -- "disruption" -- had no basis in fact. In my exhaustion with the whole thing, I decided that after all, it wouldn't matter -- that no one would bring up such a silly matter against me ever again. Foolish me. ArbCom, you blew it when you had the chance to fix it, and as a result I have Jehochman bringing it up again and again and again, and now ScottyBerg and CrohnieGal. It's a neat way that admins can attack editors: mention the crappy blocks that previous admins foolishly made, but don't look too close. I'd love to see an ArbCom member stick a link to it on the P.D. page. Then ArbCom members could explain why my request for an explanation for the allegation that I was "disruptive" was not worth the admin's or ArbCom's time and then becomes background for a new charge of "disruption" that (at least as yet) hasn't been adequately explained. If you want to go back as far as 2008, in which I was in a dispute with Wikidemon and got blocked for three weeks, you might want to see Wikidemon's latest comment about me. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 00:55, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Nobody's "attacking" you by suggesting that your past block record for disruption, edit warring and abuse of multiple accounts be mentioned in the FoF and that it be taken into consideration in imposing a sanction, if one is implemented. Also, you don't strike me as "exhausted." ScottyBerg (talk) 14:42, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

That last sentence seems unnecessarily catty, as he was pretty clearly describing his emotional state at a past time, not the present. It's nothing personal, ScottyBerg, but I think this is one more example of the widespread tendency all around in this dispute for people to take jabs at their opponents instead of really trying to read and understand what they're saying. alanyst 15:23, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

OK, I'll admit that last sentence was unnecessary, and I'll strike it. ScottyBerg (talk) 15:35, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

• Battleground language by JohnWBarber here on Lar's talkpage (18 September), putting down editors as being part of a faction. Immediately supported by Lar as he comes straight in and criticises the editor who JohnWBarber has an issue with. Olap the Ogre (talk) 09:22, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
  • If a discussion about the existence of WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior is itself a violation of WP:BATTLEGROUND, especially when no names are named, it's a Catch 22. The point was about whether or not it was useful or possible to bring up the idea of factions with regard to the behavior of others. The discussion was about the CC articles, but it was abstract. I brought up WP:BATTLEGROUND both on the evidence page and the workshop page early in this case, and I would have welcomed a further discussion of the policy there. You seem to be saying that it's a violation of policy to discuss the problem of factions in a polite way, even when we're not discussing the actions of individual editors. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 17:18, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
• Abuse of the climate change enforcement proposed decision case page: his meritless "baiting" complaint against Tony Sidaway . ScottyBerg (talk) 13:40, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
  • Your link isn't working. Scotty, you brought up the point that it was "meritless" at the time, and I answered you. I showed with specific diffs how Tony's behavior violated specific parts of a specific policy, WP:NPA, and I think there was enough of that going on for it to amount to baiting as well. I can understand how someone else might disagree with that, but I can't understand how someone else would think it's totally "meritless" and some kind of abuse of process for me to complain about it. I'm not going to repeat the answers I gave you in that thread -- it's up to you to read them and reply. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 17:18, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
    • The link is working. I meant the "proposed decision" page, not the RfE page. ScottyBerg (talk) 17:36, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

convenience break

• Shell: I looked over your accusation in detail last night, but I'm having trouble understanding part of it. You admit that your finding is "rather difficult to quantify with diffs", and since you brought up things that weren't previously discussed on this page, it's difficult for me to get a handle on just what you're objecting to and how the diffs even relate to your accusation and your additional comment. If you don't provide further explanation, it's hard for me to defend myself: I may be flailing about in discussing specific diffs in ways that don't address your points. The "edit warring" diffs I understand and I can respond to that part, and I can figure out what you're saying in the next four diffs (in article and article talk space) but the four diffs from ArbCom pages puzzle me. You say my comments are far to focused on individual editors. I thought focusing on individual editors was one of the primary reasons for an ArbCom case and so editors naturally focus on them in presenting evidence and arguments for or against sanctioning them. I don't understand how someone can be "far too focused" on that. You say my comments serve to inflame tensions, but even constructive comments on this page will do that as a matter of course, and if politeness isn't the problem, what is? Are you saying that I was making meritless comments not helpful in resolving this case because it was obvious they didn't deal with conduct ArbCom would consider? Or is there something more to it? Please explain. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 17:18, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

In general my concern about your participation in this topic area was that you tend to needle other editors rather than engaging in productive discussion. The first diff from the Gore Effect talk page is an excellent example: you were asked to provided references for the point you were making, instead of providing them or addressing the request at all, you simply say That's not a contribution to a discussion. Please answer my questions and start being constructive.. I can't think of a less productive response, not to mention the rudeness involved in blowing off another editor in this manner. In the second diff, editors start to realize that meta-discussion about who does/does not have which consensus isn't helping move things forward and attempt to get the discussion back on track. You continue down the path that several others have already noted is unhelpful with Agree all you want, but Show me where your consensus is and I'll back off. If you can't point out where it is, looks like you don't have it. How difficult can it be? with the edit summary Show me the money. Later in the discussion after editors are concerned that your comments are stonewalling rather than moving towards a consensus, you again repeat your request to be shown a consensus and accuse others of stonewalling instead(third diff). On to another article in the fourth diff, you start off with a snarky but at least constructive discussion about sourcing but once again, can't resist needling another editor with Have your views evolved? Is that it?. The same kind of nasty remarks tend to pepper your comments, making your discussion much less effective and causing more tension in an already tense area. Other gems include This will be my "I told you so" diff for the future, Do either of you think you have any credibility left after you post these kinds of comments?, There must've been some other vendetta you're talking about, Tony. C'mon, fork it over. .

One final point, it's quite possible to discuss other editors and their behavior in an objective manner - your method of handling things and your tendency to personalize your comments are inappropriate. Shell 19:18, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

That helps me better understand you, Shell. It doesn't help me understand what you think is wrong with this edit. (#10, below) Could you explain your objection to it? Also, I don't think you've looked at some other editors for much worse behavior. Viriditas, for example. Please compare these quotes with what you've quoted from me and tell me how I'm worth a finding of fact and Viriditas isn't. Roger shelved that discussion on September 27. Another thing: I don't understand why you ignore baiting and personal attacks from Tony Sidaway and consider my reaction (which does not include personal attacks) more important. WP:NPA is, after all, policy. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 21:08, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

you tend to needle other editors rather than engaging in productive discussion. No, that's simply not true. I tend to engage in productive discussion, and the vast majority of my edits are just that, either on the CC case pages, over at WP:GSCCRE, in the CC article pages and article talk pages and elsewhere. Even the #10 diff is about productive discussion. And by the way, Shell, you say gems -- that's a bit of needling on your own there, isn't it? Easy to fall into, isn't it, particularly when you're irritated. And unlike me in the discussions your diffs point to, you're under much less pressure in this discussion. I think that under the circumstances of those diffs, my responses are much more understandable than you make them appear. I'll be demonstrating this soon. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 00:39, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

• For future reference, this is a copy of the Fof with numbers. I'll refer to the numbers later:

25) JohnWBarber (talk · contribs) has engaged in disruptive behavior, including edit warring (1) , (2) , (3) and comments that served to inflame tensions and reinforced a battleground mentality (4) , (5) , (6) , (7) , (8) , (9) , (10) , (11) , (12) , (13) . JohnWBarber was formerly known as Noroton (talk · contribs) where he was repeatedly blocked for disruptive editing and abusing multiple accounts.

-- JohnWBarber (talk) 21:08, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't begrudge John W Barber's right to bring evidence, but I just want to make it plain that I vehemently deny attempting to provoke (bait) him. John, I apologise if my sincere actions ever gave you that impression. --TS 21:17, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

I rearranged my answers in numerical order below. Easier to keep track. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 00:54, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

It is important, I think, to be mindful of the circumstance under which all of these "Gore Effect" JWB diffs occurred (which seem to comport a rather sizable portion of the diffs), the resultant atmosphere that pervaded the article talk page during that period as multiple considerations were concurrently being injected and heatedly discussed, and exactly what edit precipitated each of JWB's edits.

The fact that the article "Gore Effect" survived an AfD on 12 June to which more than 80 editors contributed was simply deemed unacceptable to those in opposition and, from the inception of the AfD determination, a concerted effort has ensued to somehow mitigate the perceived offense of its very existence. In that veritable sea of rhetorical fisticuffs (still ongoing), JWB's diffs were rather par for the course and, in particular, the sequence of events surrounding diff #3 was particularly innocuous and the result of a JWB misunderstanding which he rectified to the satisfaction of all concerned. I'm rather surprised, given the tenor of the debate that frames JWB's "Gore Effect" diffs with (at least) his concurrent talk page comments and the active, undiscussed drive-by editing that was occurring, that any of the "Gore Effect" cites might be deemed to be particularly egregious. JakeInJoisey (talk) 03:04, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Diff #1: This was not edit warring. The consensus had been reached, although discussion had restarted. I don't recall if at this time there was a consensus to keep the lead essentially focused more on one definition of the term "The Gore Effect" or whether there was simply no consensus to change, but my edit was made to insist that discussion and consensus forming be respected. If you look at the edit history of the page, you'll find Jake doing the same thing at 15:57 June 22. It isn't easy to follow the talk page discussions because they took place at length and were continued confusingly in a number of different talk sections, but the editors involved all knew that there was not a consensus to change the lead. I can demonstrate that with names of editors and diffs if necessary. KimDPetersen's edit, which I was reverting, was done as an end-run around the previous consensus and the ongoing discussion and was therefore disruptive; reverting it -- once -- was not. My revert was limited to Kim's changes in the lead, although Kim had reverted other changes I'd made in the article as well. (I thought he had every right to revert those changes, and if I wanted to change it back I should get consensus on the talk page. IIRC, I decided not to bother. The intent at all times was to avoid edit warring and make discussion the deciding factor. I suppose it would have been better to point out in the discussion that the change had been made without consensus as the matter was still under discussion, and that we needed to change it back if there was no new consensus to support Kim's change. That's what I would do in the future. Shell has criticized my behavior in the discussion on that page, and she makes some good points about that, which I'll address under the headings of those diffs. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 22:37, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Diff #2: This is not edit warring. This is classic WP:BRD: Bold: Revert: Discuss: (links to entire discussion) I don't understand why this was included in the finding. Shell, am I missing something? If you look at the timestamps, I even started the discussion a minute before making the revert. I can't see any way that this comes close to edit warring. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 19:59, 5 October 2010 (UTC) (new timestamp)

Diff #3: Addressed above at 17:34, 2 Oct. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 22:05, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Diff #4: To KimDPetersen: That's not a contribution to a discussion. Please answer my questions and start being constructive. Well, his comment wasn't constructive. This statement (the entire diff) in fact was an earnest effort to be constructive. If I'm being a little curt it's because I was faced with dealing with editors who showed no interest in actually examining the issues at hand. In my opening comment in that thread, I linked to a part of WP:OR policy -- an exception to regular WP:OR strictures. The response from these editors was "Hey, your edit was original research." As if my link and explanation had never been shown to them. It could make a person a tad frustrated, couldn't it, arbitrators? KimDPeterson, who had reverted my edit, had the least to say about it (the comment immediately above mine in the diff): The main point is: Since at least 3 editors feel that it isn't obvious, then you must be able to provide references for it, otherwise you are doing WP:OR. It even sounds like gloating. Why is a little curtness on my part after all that stony lack of cooperation from those other editors, cited as some kind of "disruptive" behavior? Is it not understandable that I would be frustrated? Was the behavior of the other editors, who ignored my main points in that thread, itself reasonable? Shell, you say that this is an example of "disruption", which is defined as something impeding Misplaced Pages's normal processes, like coming to a consensus on article content. But editors who continually ignore the main points being made (so long as they're reasonable) are not showing any interest in the purpose of the talk page -- to improve the article. I'm going to say something about content here, but only for the purposes of showing my reasonable behavior and the unreasonable behavior I was met with (so arbitrators' agreement or disagreement with me on the content point is irrelevant): "The Gore Effect", as either a joke or cliche, is a thing made of words. Things made of words are often categorized in various ways. If we see a category that simple editorial judgment (on the order of WP:CALC) can show us is applicable, it is reasonable to suggest saying that in the article. The nature of a snowclone or phrasal template is that part of the phrase is changed while other parts stay the same compared to similar phrases (here: The Gore Effect, The Clinton Effect, The Blair Effect, The Pauli Effect, or frankly any other "Effect" with a name in front of it, preferably also with a "The"). It was therefore necessary, once bringing up the idea of a "phrasal template" to mention similar phrases (just as we couldn't mention that a phrase or word is a synonym of something else without stating what that thing is it's supposed to be like, if we were going to introduce the idaa of a synonym into an article.) The discussion shows that I was willing to drop "snowclone" and simply refer to phrasal templates (see my comment at 18:48, 23 June), per Arthur's objection. I was also willing to use other examples of phrasal templates, although I thought examples with other public political figures were best (see my comment at 21:51, 23 June). That's an effort at coming to a compromise. And my efforts were reasonable throughout. Guettarda ignored my argument on WP:CALC grounds; JakeInJoisey was similarly unresponsive; Arthur threw up various objections, but I might have reached an agreement with him. KimDPetersen at that point didn't discuss the merits of the situation at all. My response was not even uncivil. It was simply curt. Those editors are not wilting lilies, and any other editor who responded to me would have received my respectful attention, in which I would have shown respect to their arguments and to themselves and a willingness to compromise. And for this curtness, in these circumstances, I'm being sanctioned? Just look at KimDPetersen's completely unconstructive, uncooperative attitude and response as shown in the rest of the discussion, after which I soon decided I had had enough of this article:

That's not a contribution to a discussion. Please answer my questions and start being constructive. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 01:40, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, but what is not constructive in requesting that you reference your addition (per WP:V), so that the WP:OR goes away? --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 02:19, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

That it completely ignores everything previously said in this thread. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 03:03, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

There is no compromise to doing WP:OR - either you can verify it - or you can't. Half-original research is still original research. And i'm sorry to say that i haven't ignore anything you've said. You claim that it is obvious - people disagree - thus you will have to reference it or it can't go in. It really is that simple. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 09:31, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

When editors are not interested in listening, the editors trying to convince them are justified in getting frustrated and it's understandable that these editors can get a little curt. There should be a massive amount of this or it should be particularly hurtful for it to rise to the level that ArbCom needs to deal with it. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 21:10, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

After all that, I still have something else to say about this. Here's what Shell said, above:

In general my concern about your participation in this topic area was that you tend to needle other editors rather than engaging in productive discussion. The first diff from the Gore Effect talk page is an excellent example: you were asked to provided references for the point you were making, instead of providing them or addressing the request at all, you simply say That's not a contribution to a discussion. Please answer my questions and start being constructive.. I can't think of a less productive response, not to mention the rudeness involved in blowing off another editor in this manner.

Shell, if you reread that discussion you'll find I constantly responded to editors' points, at some points so carefully that I numbered my responses (which seemed to induce Arthur to address them more closely and help make what little progress there was in that discussion). Asking for references was ignoring my often repeated point, since that point was this was a situation where the WP:CALC section of WP:OR was an exception to that policy (you don't need a reference for 30 + 45 = 75 and so you shouldn't need a reference for anything that similar, like "The ____ Effect"). Don't you get frustrated when people don't respond to you after you've asked them to over and over and over? Kim wasn't blown off, he just wasn't interested in actually discussing what I was bringing up. Anyone here can confirm what I'm saying by just reading the discussion. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 00:37, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Diff #5:

Diff #6:

Diff #7: Shell says above, you start off with a snarky but at least constructive discussion about sourcing but once again, can't resist needling another editor with Have your views evolved? Is that it?. The same kind of nasty remarks tend to pepper your comments, making your discussion much less effective and causing more tension in an already tense area. It's evident from looking at the thread at Talk:Fred Singer that the tension was caused by two editors, KimDPetersen and Guettarda, who were not just disagreeing with five other editors (SlimVirgin, ATren, Cla68, ScottyBerg and me), but who were using the flimsiest of arguments to keep a solidly sourced (and innocuous) quote out of the article while Kim had previously reverted in an edit war to keep in the article an attack on Singer coming from a source that BLP forbids. This discussion, on points made by KimdPetersen and Guettarda that were, frankly, silly in very obvious ways, went on for 35K by the time of my edit. It was argued that we needed confirmation that a WP:NEWSBLOG on the New York Times website was under the editorial control of the newspaper or it was unreliable, and that a blog by scientists that called a report whose lead author was Fred Singer "dishonest" was merely criticizing the report, not Fred Singer. Editor after editor expressed amazement: This is very disturbing. SlimVirgin talk contribs 14:48, 24 May ... It is this kind of inconsistency in applying policy that causes NPOV problems on these pages. ATren (talk) 15:10, 24 May ... Kim, are you advocating using RealClimate, a self-published advocacy site, as a source in this article, but not a NYTimes blog? Do I have that right? Cla68 (talk) 15:45, 24 May Now, none of these other editors did what I did, and you're right, it did not help the tone of the discussion. I went through the bother of going to the Times website to see what they had to say about editorial oversight in an effort to show Kim something that might prove to even him that the source was reliable. I think I made more progress in that regard than the other editors. But, like the other editors, I also became utterly frustrated with Kim's obstinancy in the face of normal readings of policy and, frankly, common sense (there is no good reason for the Times not to have full editorial control over the reporters' blogs on its website). I say mention all this to demonstrate just how difficult it was to deal with Kim here. It's also true that none of the other editors made a snarky comment like mine. You're right, I shouldn't have said it. In this case, I don't think it mattered much and I do think a little sneering is a relatively mild response compared with other common reactions in tense situations, like harsh incivility and personal attacks. If I had to do it over, I would not do it again. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 02:05, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

There's something else about this that I need to mention: What made this thread particularly frustrating was that the huge discrepancy between Kim's two positions on sourcing was not accompanied by a believable explanation (even after repeated questioning), so Kim's behavior looked (and to me still looks) extremely suspicious. Very few article discussions revolve around editors' explanations that are this starkly unbelievable. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 02:32, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Diff #8: Why is this diff in the Fof? -- JohnWBarber (talk) 01:09, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Diff #9: ] I regret the tone of my language here when I was reacting to what I consider Tony's repeated persaonal attack. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 22:14, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Diff #10: Where is the "nasty" language here? Why is this diff in the Fof? The harshest thing I say in it is at the end: This is very much the behavior of a disruptive editor rather than a reasonable one. I don't think Kim's behavior has been reasonable; it's been disruptive, and some of the diffs, seen in context, are my reactions to that disruption. 2/0 had a perfectly acceptable argument asking ArbCom to reject the remedy against Kim. I disagreed and posted a perfectly acceptable argument to the contrary. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 00:45, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Diff #11: This will be my "I told you so" diff for the future Shell, how is this diff "not productive"? I thought I made an extremely important, productive point: Arbitration enforcement will be gamed, and I'm entitled to my opinion on that. How is it "nasty"? It certainly isn't needling anybody at all. I wanted to say it in a way that would get your attention (sure got it) You don't like it, I get that. Please tell me what's wrong with it, because I don't get that. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 02:31, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Another editor has given me something to think about regarding this one, and I'll have more to say about this one later. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 19:48, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Diff #12: Shell objects to this sentence Do either of you think you have any credibility left after you post these kinds of comments? This, according to Shell, is an example of nasty remarks causing more tension in an already tense area. The context shows otherwise. Here's a larger excerpt of that comment:

Diff #13: There must've been some other vendetta you're talking about, Tony. C'mon, fork it over. I had just been attacked by Tony. Smeared. WP:NPA. The insinuation was that I had a "vendetta" going on. And your concern: That italics around "some" and C'mon, fork it over. is an example of "nasty" language "making discussion much less effective and causing more tension". Shell, I think a more efficient way to reduce tension in discussions is not to have a personal attack in the first place and for others not to ignore them when they happen repeatedly. I agree that my response could have been better. I'll try harder to avoid sarcasm and snark the next time I'm attacked. But I don't think this diff, even in combination with others, is really important enough for an Fof. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 00:32, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

"abuse of multiple accounts" There is no legitimate reason to include this in the finding. Shell, why did you include it and why don't you remove it? After I was blocked for "abuse of multiple accounts", the checkuser/blocking admin said the reason had to do with being "disruptive". I asked the checkuser/admin why I was blocked rather than approached, because I hadn't done anything "abusive" -- at least anything that was beyond a technical violation and therefore not worth a block. The blocking admin, Versageek, replied I felt the nature of your comments certainly represented wiki-lawyering and in some cases the tone bordered on trolling. Also, it was clear you were an established user debating on a project page using an account with very few edits.. which suggested there was also violation of the (recently updated) WP:SOCK policy. . I then asked where this disruption could be found and received no actual reply. I then brought the matter to ArbCom, protesting (among other things) that I hadn't been disruptive. Here is the AfD. Here is the DRV . I also made some comments on Jake Wartenberg's talk page. Shell, your inclusion of "JohnWBarber was formerly known as Noroton (talk · contribs) where he was repeatedly blocked for disruptive editing and abusing multiple accounts" seems to endorse the view that the multiple-accounts block was justified (by my "disruptive" behavior, something for which there is no proof and never has been any proof). This strengthens your case that I'm showing a pattern of "disruptive behavior" since the block was a year ago. I can understand why you'd want to try to strengthen a case which even you say is "rather difficult to quantify with diffs", but I think you're going to have to rely on the block from two years ago rather than a year ago. Versageek couldn't produce a diff in which I was "disruptive". Simply using multiple accounts is not, by itself "disruptive". Please find the "disruption" in the AfD or DRV or drop the allegation. Because it isn't at all over the top to say that you, Versageek, WP:AUSC and ArbCom itself are committing (or have committed) a personal attack by making

"Accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence. Serious accusations require serious evidence. Evidence often takes the form of diffs and links presented on wiki."

I realize this is complicated and I don't blame you for think you are deliberately trying to continue this personal attack, but ArbCom helped to create this mess. The very least ArbCom owes me is not to perpetuate it. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 21:03, 5 October 2010 (UTC) (added information -- JohnWBarber (talk) 21:22, 5 October 2010 (UTC)) (tweaked language in second to last sentence -- to what I meant to say. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 00:37, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Tomorrow, I expect to go through the edits related to The Gore Effect and wrap up my comments here. If I'd had more time, I'd be done already.

Carcharoth, on the P.D. page, says his sole problem with the current proposal is mentioning the last block, which I appreciate. He says he has no problem with the rest, which I find odd, since I've pointed out very clearly on this page that some of the diffs appear to have no substance. It does me absolutely no good to confuse me and others about the relevance of these diffs (and I'm evidently not the only one confused by them), so it would do a lot of good for ArbCom members respond to my questions here. As for my other comments in defending myself, arbitrators either find them cogent or they don't, and I'd welcome feedback or questions about them.

Newyorkbrad says, there is a sharp edge to many of JohnWBarber's comments in various venues that he ought to strive to significantly tone down. I agree, and I will. Five people on the P.D. page and other people who are not grinding axes have now been giving me the same message. That's led me to look into it and come to the same conclusion. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 22:47, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

views of others

I don't quite know where to put this but I think this finding of fact generally misses the mark. Is JWB perfect? No. But who among us is? Some may recall that I was involved in the investigation of JWB in October 2009, referenced above, during which I stated concern about what I saw as the JWB account being used inappropriately. Might have been wrong then, might not have been, it's difficult to say at this remove, but it's my view that JWB has amply demonstrated that he is here for the good of the project, and the issues he raises are important ones. His analysis and evidence are sound and worthy of review. This finding, and the associated remedy that would be based on it, if any, are shooting the messenger. None of these diffs rise to the level that merit more than a caution. There seems to be a fair bit of straining at gnats and swallowing camels when evaluating behaviors in this case. ++Lar: t/c 22:28, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Earlier this year, you told JohnWBarber: I don't think you have it in you to admit fault at all. Or to interact civilly." You followed that up by calling JohnWBarber "the very model of an incollegial, tendentious, timewasting editor." That's a very harsh (and, I would argue, unfair) evaluation of JohnWBarber's editing. What has happened in the intervening months to alter your impression? MastCell  21:59, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

MastCell, I don't see any good reason for you to bring up the matter. Obviously, Lar was angry at the time, and his comments then aren't of any use now in helping ArbCom decide on this Fof. Lar and I exchanged emails some time ago, and I believe we're both satisfied that the dispute is over. He was not the admin who blocked me and then announced that I was "disruptive" without providing proof -- my sole concern in relation to this Fof. I was concerned at the time that something nefarious had happened in private communications about me between Lar and the blocking editor. The communications were referred to WP:AUSC which ruled that nothing wrong had happened. I'm very satisfied with that, and it allayed my suspicions. I don't see a legitimate benefit in bringing up an irrelevant matter or discussing it further. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 22:39, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Per JWB. People change. JWB significantly changed his approach. I changed my view. We met somewhere in the middle. MastCell: Your bringing this up, in this way, is unhelpful. ++Lar: t/c 11:56, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm glad you two have buried the hatchet, but that's between you guys, and not really why I brought it up. Lar, it's pretty rare (I would assume) for you to describe your fellow editors in such unsparingly harsh terms, and even rarer to come around to describe the same editor as a plus for the project. I wanted to know what you'd seen in the interim to change your opinion, because it might shed some light on the proposed ArbCom findings, and whether they fail to consider substantial changes in JohnWBarber's approach. But if neither of you want to discuss it, then never mind. Question withdrawn. MastCell  00:19, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't think it's AT ALL fair to say I "don't want to discuss it". I gave, you an answer, albeit terse, without going into a lot of detail, in order to meet the requests of the arbs about the length of the page. I wish you'd quit twisting the words of others around so, apparently to score debating points, it's quite an annoying habit. And battlefield behavior. Doing so is unhelpful. Are you modeling good behaviour when you do things like that? I don't think so.

To elaborate on my terse answer, in general I don't support people using multiple accounts, and keeping that fact hidden, when the account is used to comment purely or mostly on wikipolitics, keeping the main account "clean". At the time I made those comments that is how I saw the JWB account... hiding the association. I also saw the JWB account making comments that were tendentious and argumentative and generally not helpful (and I stand by that evaluation of the JWB account as it was then). BUT, people change. First, the linkage between the JWB account and the previous accounts is now public record, not hidden. That satisfies my concern about using multiple accounts to deceive. And second, I think JWB took some of the feedback on board and his recent contributions are far different than his earlier ones. Much more reasoned, methodical, supported by evidence and much more seeking to find compromise and solutions. People change. Some people anyway. This arbitration in large part is about people who haven't changed, who won't give up their inappropriate actions and who persist in battlefield mentality. (notably many of the folk you give reflexive support to, but not exclusively them) JWB is not one of them, he's now part of the solution, not the problem. I hope that clears up matters. ++Lar: t/c 17:14, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

I do not think that your first paragraph is an appropriate nor correct interpretation of MastCell's post. Reread his post, as I interpreted it as just a routine post asking for more information; I didn't see anything wrong with it at all. For example saying "You don't have to answer", is a polite way of saying, "hey no pressure buddy", it is friendly not battlefield. Ironically, though it was not your intention, your harsh comments to MastCell may look like battlefield. I am not just saying this to stick up for MastCell, I don't agree with everything he has said during this ArbCom and he probably doesn't agree with everything I have said. Your second paragraph is helpful as it described from your view, JWB as having been a problem but is no longer a problem and that your view is that he is being punished largely due to his past rather than present behaviour. I think that that was what MastCell was asking. As an outsider I have been wondering if JWB was being sanctioned more for past bad history than present but I don't know enough to be sure, so your answer is helpful for outsiders, including ArbCom (if they are interested which I imagine they are).--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 17:56, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

I appreciate your input about MastCell, and I'll keep it in mind, but I stand by my assessment of MastCell and his contributions as often unhelpful, including in this particular case. As for the latter part of your post, one can hope. I've not seen a lot of sign that ArbCom takes input from me on board any more. ++Lar: t/c 18:43, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Ok, thank you Lar. I did say that I didn't agree with all of MastCell's comments during this case. I was referring to your overly harsh tone and your misinterpretation of MastCell's above comment which appeared to me to be constructive and in good faith, so a little confused by your "I stand by,,,," comment in reply to me.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 19:07, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

• Per Lar -- My impression was that JohnWBarber made many well-reasoned contributions in the course of this arbitration. The statement about the Noroton account in the proposed FoF may sound more damning than the actual background (which I thought did not include abusive sockpuppeting) justifies. If that is so, it should really be removed, lest we give a dog a bad name to hang him, and the decision be made on the presented evidence, which everyone appears to agree is at best borderline. --JN466 16:09, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
• Shell says above, your tendency to personalize your comments inappropriate. I've been looking over the diffs that I haven't yet posted specific comments on and thinking about a comment alanyst recently made on my talk page, and I'm coming to the conclusion that Shell's made a good point in that comment. Sometimes I have been too snarky. I think there are circumstances surrounding most of those diffs that show the problem to be much less severe than Shell has implied, and I'll post on that, but even with those caveats, I was wrong to make some of those comments. I don't think my comments are worth an ArbCom sanction, and my comments on those final diffs and on some other aspects of this will show why. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 01:49, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree that calling your findings "personal" is far over-reaching -- and in fact, Shell has done the same thing with my diffs. Seven of the diffs Shell provided in my finding (and which she's since defended) are of me simply warning admins whom I believed acted inappropriately. My warnings are in no way personal; they only deal with the actions of those admins, but Shell insists that they are personal, even as she herself casts aspersions on a fellow arb, accusing him of not assuming good faith in a tone that is no better than anything you or I have done. So it's clear that there are two sets of rules in effect here -- but we can't say that, because then we're promoting a battleground. It seems the only solution is for us to go away and let the POV and BLP problems fester, which is what I should have done long ago. I'm here for 3 years trying to keep libelous material out of BLPs, you're here posting evidence and pointing out obvious problems, yet we're both shown the door while many of those who created this mess are allowed to continue. And then they wonder why editors like you and me avoid these topics like the plague. ATren (talk) 19:57, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

In support of ATren's point, I'm amazed to see arbcoms lining up to endorse as uncivil comments which are not. A more blatant exhibition of systemic bias would be harder to find. ATren's mistake was to warn folks when they might be overstepping the mark and misusing admin powers; such warnings are never kindly received, of course. --Michael C. Price 16:06, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

• I don't think it's very interesting for the participants in this dispute to make tendentious comments supporting or opposing findings that we already know they will support or oppose. Your bickering repels any uninvolved editors. Jehochman 17:17, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
  • Thanks for letting us all know what you think is interesting, although not everyone shares your view, I expect. But I think characterizing using terms like "tendentious comments" and "bickering" misses the mark. There's been a lot of that going around though. ++Lar: t/c 11:56, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
• "edit warring" I don't understand how the three examples in the Fof show edit warring. Not all reverts are edit warring, right? I've looked into all three and don't see how I violated either the letter or the spirit of edit warring policy. Could someone explain to me how my explanations of my edits fail to show how I did not edit war, or otherwise show me how I did edit war? I'd especially like to hear from arbitrators, but really, anyone, please. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 00:40, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Gore effect article as a microcosm of the battleground

The "Gore Effect" article was an unfortunate bit of trivia that quite a lot of editors got sucked into, or rather permitted themselves to be sucked.

Examining the diffs in this proposed finding I'm not surprised to find that 6 of 13 come from that article or its talk page. and that the article also features in the proposed findings of Mark Nutley, Hipocrite, Kim Dabelstein Petersen, as well as the original formulation of finding 6 on edit warring. For a very minor bit of American culture this subject seems to have had a disproportionately divisive effect on Wikipedians. It has been both a touchstone and a catalyst of the very acrimonious atmosphere surrounding articles on the fringe of the subject.

In part, the joke version originally created in December explains how it attracted notoriety while still in Mark Nutley's user space, but the deletion discussion did turn up some constructive suggestions and I wasn't surprised to see it survive the discussion. At that point the thing to do was walk away for a few months and see what community editing did with it. That exactly the opposite happened, with embattled factions warring over a plot "not tomb enough and continent to hide the slain," is a snapshot of the worst of Misplaced Pages. The suspicion, ridiculous to explain in the light of day, appears to have been that the article might somehow be used to push a point of view on Misplaced Pages. Whatever, the reaction caused much harm. To scientifically literate editors the article's parallel with the Pauli effect should not need to be explained, and the current version of the article is one that we can all be proud of in a small way. --TS 13:22, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Discretion

I don't know how to do this but I suspect the arbitrators do. Could you just underline the following bit:

Administrators are cautioned not to reverse such sanctions without familiarizing themselves with the full facts of the matter and engaging in extensive discussion and consensus-building at the administrators’ noticeboard or another suitable on-wiki venue. The Committee will consider appropriate remedies including suspension or revocation of adminship in the event of violations.

Just make sure that admins know it's not something you agonize over before applying sanctions (and then only if the user having been warned and advised fails to imrprove) and that the interminable discussion comes after the sanction is imposed. This is a pretty straightforward "no more fucking around" sanction, but in this case I think it might help to make it plain that it's a discretionary affair. --TS 23:14, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

This is actually the opposite of giving discretion to admins - you force them to "engage in extensive discussion and consensus-building at the administrators’ noticeboard or another suitable on-wiki venue", not giving them discretion to act as they think best. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 23:18, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

No, absolutely not. Read the remedy. There is nothing there about extensive engagement prior to warning or sanctions. It's those who want to reverse the sanction who have to jump the hoops. And quite right too. Of course you don't get to sanction and walk away, you do have to respond to constructive engagement, but if you've got a bit you signed up for it. --TS 23:21, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

In reality, the number of discretionary sanctions appealed is low. If there are topic-bans about, the clamour at the boards is reduced considerably.  Roger Davies 23:28, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

I do not really understand how Roger's comment fits this thread...

In reply to Tony: You miss the point (or I did not formulate it well enough). Either you trust the admins, or you don't. Why would you trust them to enact sanctions responsibly, but not to revert them responsibly? In my experience, the more consequential an act is, the less likely it is to be done. The key is not to make sure sanctions stick, the key is to make them lightweight enough that admins actually enact them. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 23:37, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

If only it were that simple. ArbCom has decided otherwise in the past though: , . NW (Talk) 02:55, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Stephan: I think Roger is saying that as most discretionary sanctions are a straight-forward affair and so few are appealed, the issue of wheel-warring over discretionary sanctions is not as important as it is being made out to be. AGK 22:50, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

I think this case will likely prove to be an exception and several individuals will make appeals down the line. This is why I think some of the sanctions should stack rather than being either/or. For instance, those with major BLP issues seem to be the most likely ones to appeal their bans (and the most likely to succeed considering how tight knit the group is) and so I think expansive bans on BLPs in the topic area should be enacted (in addition to the general topic ban) now to save a lot of heartache later on. TheGoodLocust (talk) 07:59, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Evidence sub-pages in userspace

Just a reminder that per longstanding consensus at Miscellany for Deletion editors may work up drafts in their userspace for the sole purpose of submitting the material as evidence in arbitration cases. However, after the evidence has been submitted and/or the case closes, the sub-pages should be deleted as they are often perceived as attack pages and serve only to memorialise and perpetuate the dispute. Thank you for your understanding,  Roger Davies 07:24, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm glad you have posted this...this should be part of the normative arbitration process...anyway to set this in stone?--MONGO 14:25, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

See my comment on the proposed principle. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 20:12, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

• Anyone without access to Rev/Delete or deletion flags may request me to remove edits or sub pages per the above - I will only accept requests from the page "owners", and will delete on a sight unseen basis. Requests to my talkpage or by email, please. Just for the avoidance of doubt, these will be the final admin actions I intend taking in relation to this subject area. LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:26, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

A friendly, gentle reminder

I know this case has been going for awhile, and we clerks have been somewhat lax in enforcing the rules here, so some contributors may have forgotten the statement at the top of this talk page: "No word limit, but clerks and arbitrators will moderate excessive, contentious or off-topic discussions." Many of the discussions here are most certainly contentious or off-topic. If you want to discuss anything other than the proposed decisions being made on the project page, please do it elsewhere. Attacking other parties in the case, complaining about the arbitrators, or squabbling over article content is off-topic for this page, and any discussions to that effect will be collapsed by the clerks. Discussions that started on-topic but veer off-topic will also not be spared. Repeat offenders will be asked not to post on this talk page at all. Given the length of this case and the quality of the discourse here, we intend to enforce these rules rather strictly from now on. Lankiveil 00:10, 30 September 2010 (UTC).

NOTICE concerning any new edits to this page

Posts here are getting increasingly tangential and circular. I've been asked to request that any new discussions (or posts to old ones) be clearly directly relevant and also concern issues that haven't been recently raised. Thank you. Dougweller (talk) 15:41, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Chiming in to note that any discussions that don't follow the above guidelines, as interpreted by the clerks or arbs, will be summarily closed or removed. Lankiveil 21:33, 5 October 2010 (UTC).

Hatting of threads with dismissive summaries

The hatting of threads that are adressing aspects of the PD along with the addition of dismissive summaries seems to be occuring recently. Particularly from the arbs Roger Davies and Shell, these are the two prime advocates of remedy three. It may not be their intention but it appears to me as though they are using their rank to defend their position and whether this is their intention or not they should probably be advised to steer clear of this sort of action. 194.66.0.122 (talk) 15:50, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree completely. Even though I support remedy 3, this dismissal of editors' discussions here is not helpful. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 15:55, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Keep the discussion on topic, productive and stop taking swipes at each other and it won't get closed. Shell 16:09, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

The trouble is that closing entire discussions along with dismissive summaries penalizes all contributors no matter how on topic they were and how many good points they made. In a situation where editors are being topic banned indefinitely it is not fair for those arbs who are doing this to be making those decisions. 194.66.0.122 (talk) 16:18, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

It's unreasonable to think that anyone (arb or clerk) is going to wade through a discussion and pick out the bits that aren't constructive. It's certainly disappointing that those involved in the case don't have more restraint; it's not like it hasn't been mentioned, repeatedly (there are two sections on the page currently). Finally, your drama isn't helping the situation either - I fail to see how "close" and "archive to..." and "please..." are in any way dismissive. Shell 16:28, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Oh so when you cannot win you argument you put your foot down. Most of us are not allowed to do that, only arbs. I was just about to comment on remedy 3 and you went and archived the discussion. 194.66.0.122 (talk) 16:37, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

(od) Why is discussion over the last three days or so (the time it takes for this page to get unmanageable) more important than similar discussions on the same subject started on 18 Sep, 24 Sep or 28 Sep? Are arbitrators expected to base their decisions entirely on the discussion de jour and ignore the old stuff?  Roger Davies 16:40, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Ideally, arbitrators would arbitrate, i.e. engage with the participants, explain their current understanding of the situation, and actively guide the discussion by pointing out where they need more information. As long as most of the arbitration discussion happens behind closed doors (or mail accounts), and as long as the "let's throw more mud, some will stick" approach seems to work, you will get mountains of mud, with some very few nuggets in them. To answer Shell, yes, I do expect Arbs to wade through the discussion and pick out the bits that are(n't) constructive - as far as my understanding goes, that's exactly what you volunteered for when you stood for the job.--Stephan Schulz (talk) 16:51, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Actually, from what I've seen, arbitrator input in discussions here doesn't seem to make a whole lot of difference.  Roger Davies 17:04, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

I see few significant examples. Coren up at the Scibaby thread is a laudable exception, although I'm somewhat disappointed by what he says. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 17:11, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Oh, well. We'll just have to agree to differ on that.  Roger Davies 17:20, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

(outdent) ArbCom have no choice but to do it this way (please try to think logically everyone, i.e. sheer volume of text, chaos etc). Remedy 3 is the best approach I feel given the size and severity of the battle field. The only alternative is voluntary binding topic bans in my view. People seem to think topic bans are about a punishment, they are not they are remedies to fix the topic area.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 17:28, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree with aggressive archiving particularly at this stage when most discussion is just a noisier and more acrimonious rehash of earlier themes. There is also evidence of a misunderstanding of what arbitration is about and how it's conducted. By their nature arbitration decisions over-rule the community and the community doesn't over-rule arbitration decisions.

The unruly conduct on this page mirrors the dispute area quite well and I wouldn't be surprised if activities here turned out to have been a decisive factor in convincing the arbitration committee that quite stern measures are needed.

One recent comment stands out. From memory, it was a remark that the topic on Misplaced Pages has attracted argumentative people. That rings true; earlier I referred to an apparent migration from another dispute area, and on the list of those being considered for a topic ban more than a few of those seem to have a record of inserting themselves into controversial topics and exacerbating them. A reset is needed. Tasty monster (=TS ) 18:13, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

May I suggest if editors want to discuss the Remedy 3 which has been called the nuclear option they start a new thread and make the discussions precise about why they are for or against this remedy? The collasping of the thread I believe is the one that Roger Davies was polite enough to come to my talk page and tell me he was collasping and why he was doing it. Everyone, please calm down and comment directly on what you are disputing or in favor of in brief and to the point comments. I think that will make everyone happy, including the arbitrators and the clerks. --CrohnieGal 11:57, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Right to vanquish

I'll take six months off from Climate Change, no problem. Would prefer to keep a clean record as best as possible. Thanks for the opportunity to disengage. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 00:17, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

I take it the heading is a Freudian slip?--Scott Mac 14:31, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Actually, if I am to subdue my battleground behavior I'll have to vanquish those things that are causing them. I wish I had better guidance on what they are, but all I have is a bunch of diffs put the point that I was causing concern. I received my warning and remedy all at once, with little substance to comprehend the error of my ways. I guess I'll have a few months to figure this out. Peacefully participating in talk and dispute resolution turned into less resolution and greater confusion for me. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 03:27, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Suggestions

• In the Blocking and Banning section, I suggest deleting "new to the topic". As it now stands, some people will try to use this decision to silence long-term editors from expressing points of view resembling those of banned editors, which clearly (from the first sentence) is not the intent.
• "(such as discussions of the blogs themselves)" is not too bad, but "typically articles about the blog or source itself" goes a little further and could unfortunately be interpreted by some as cancelling the provision in WP:V#Self-published sources (online and paper) which says "Self-published material may in some circumstances be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications." ☺Coppertwig (talk) 22:41, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Forgive me but I seem to have read that the "new to the topic" specificaly is there in orer to make it clear that editors expressing points of view resembling those of banned editors is not a reason to get banned. So it seems to me that that concearn is invalid.Slatersteven (talk) 13:17, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

I read it that way as well. As for the second point - I would assume that the arbcomm members are fairly well aware of what the policy says, so presumably are intentionally being more restrictive than what policy says. I would, of course, be interested in seeing this explicitly spelt out. Guettarda (talk) 14:11, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

I obviously cannot speak for all of us, but I certainly understand that this is more demanding that policy, and that is the intent. In general experts' blogs can be used as sources for certain things without straying too far from WP:V and WP:RS — but when every citation becomes a battle then it's best to shy away entirely from the gray area. — Coren  22:43, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

This seems to me to be a great way of gaming. Just make every edit of an expert blog a battle, and the expert will lose (and so will Misplaced Pages). This is generally what has happened to RealClimate - no matter how many times RS/N and other boards have determined it to be a reliable source for expert opinion - there has been people who've removed it, because A) they didn't like it B) its a blog, and therefore it must go - no matter what SPS says. And this is when we talking entirely about usage on non-biographical pages. Fortunately i'll be out of that for a bit, but to me it (to repeat) seems to be a loss for Misplaced Pages. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 23:33, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

I think that it is obvious why RealClimate is inappropriate, for one, one of the major editors to climate change WMC was a former contributer. There is a legitimate concern that RealClimate blog opinion pieces could be written and specifically aimed towards use as a source on wikipedia. Climate change is such a widely researched topic area, what is so wrong with just following what the peer reviewed recent secondary sources say on a given area of climate change? It is not like there is a drought of sources in the area. People can cite policy for the use of newspapers for stating citing scientific facts, it doesn't mean it is appropriate. For discussing matters of science really should be kept to the peer reviewed literature with a preference for recent secondary peer reviewed sources.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 23:47, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

WMC is not and hasn't been a contributor to RC for a long time, so that one is moot. When Realclimate is talking about science, then they are speaking as experts with a long and impressive publication record in exactly the area that is being discussed. Which is exactly within the rationale for the WP:SPS exceptions. We should always keep to using the more direct sources - but once in a while specifics aren't discussed in detail in specific peer-reviewed papers - mainly because it is basic knowledge instead of new knowledge, or as is often the case, they can discuss issues that are brought up in mainstream media, which isn't discussed in peer-reviewed sources, because quite often the issue is silly, seen from a scientific viewpoint.

If and when such blog postings are written directly to address wikipedia points, then that should be taken up - and (imho) lead to a blacklisting of the site (if it is gaming). Funny enough though, we have mainstream media articles that are written this way. - --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 23:59, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Ok, but it is not subjected to peer review, it is just the thoughts of the writers, not referenced etc. There are good quality peer reviewed books which can be useful for covering issues and gaps which are not discussed in the peer reviewed literature. Experts also speak in newspapers and are quoted in newspapers, that doesn't mean newspapers are appropriate for making scientific statements of fact. Misplaced Pages scientific articles should not be discussing issues brought up in newspapers and other media, therefore the use of RealClimate for refuting media in wikipedia climate change articles is unnecessary. Yes but how does one prove that RealClimate contributers do or do not liase with wikipedia editors? I am sorry but I feel that peer reviewed science sources particularly in a controversial battleground should be the sources used and it is unnecessary to resort to blogs. I suppose if there was a concensus among editors for a non-controversial use of a blog it might be of use but it certainly should not be used to make controversial claims, the peer reviewed literature must be used for this.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 00:45, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

This is fine as a general principle, and something that i'd strongly endorse (ie. only ref. PR material on science), but the reality of it is that you then will lose most of the tiny minority opinions on several articles, and the capability of discussing tiny minority/fringe material where it is relevant and within weight. Notice that most (>80%) of the controversy in the climate change area exists in mass-media, and is to a large extent non-existing in the peer-reviewed literature. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 06:29, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

If newspapers are being used in a science section to discuss a scientific fact it should be replaced with a peer reviewed source. When I say facts I am meaning like discussing results, conclusions and viewpoints on academic research and conclusions of panels. Your use of the word controversy, is another issue. Newspapers are fine in non-scientific sections, such as controversy/criticism sections, where political, social and dissenting views which are notable but outside of the peer reviewed process, can be mentioned and accorded due weight in a non-scientific section. To understand further what I mean, read over my comments on this talk page of a proposed science guideline.Wikipedia_talk:Identifying_reliable_sources_(natural_sciences) If this guideline were to get up and running I think NPOV and the battlegrounding would be greatly improved.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 07:46, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

While we are here, I have concerns about the quality of sourcing in climate change articles, there is way too much citing of partisan left wing newspapers in preference of peer reviewed literature; take for example reference 6 in Hockey_stick_controversy. Why is the Guardian used instead of the scientific report itself? I am not saying that you Kim made that edit, you probably didn't, but there are many many examples of the use of partisan sources written by journalists in preference of the peer review literature, in these articles. Ironically I don't see any concerns raised by editors who class themselves as defending the science on these articles. What is needed Kim is not a worsening of sourcing standards for these articles but an increasing focus on strengthening sourcing standards and sticking as best possible to the peer reviewed literature. This comment is not aimed at Kim but is a general statement of sourcing standards in these articles aimed at everyone. I do recall that you said that you felt newspapers tended to be more alarmist than the scientific literature, so hopefully you and everyone else will agree with me that sourcing standards in these articles could do with improving.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 01:12, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Probably best to bring this up on the article's talk page rather than here. Guettarda (talk) 01:48, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps, but that means engaging in the battlefield, which I do not have the time, energy nor enough interest in the subject to bother. The bigger picture and my point was not just aimed at editors here but at ArbCom, to say that the proposed decision with regard to sourcing standards should not be relaxed but if anything they need to be strengthed with a preference for peer review literature over newspapers for sourcing scientific facts.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 01:58, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Fixing the problem should be initiated there, but noting the problem? That's fine here in my view. It has been remarked before that sourcing is skewed in this area, here's more evidence of it. ++Lar: t/c 03:51, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't think that you will find a single editor on what Lar calls the science team, that would disagree with you on that one. Unfortunately reality is different. There are also cases where references written in laymans terms are productive as a secondary reference, that says the same as the peer-reviewed material referenced. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 06:34, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Actually that is the first time that I have heard that reasoning before, that using a poorer source is a better idea because lay people can understand poorer quality sources better. That is not a good idea and my concerns about sourcing these articles remain. This guideline if it could be passed would resolve a lot of misperceptions regarding sourcing I feel.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 07:46, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Though I have heard of editors who have said that technical sources should be summarised in easy to understand wording for the layreader though and I believe it is mentioned in a guideline somewhere.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 07:50, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Two points: First, if mainstream coverage is in accord with what you'd find in peer-reviewed sources, then it meets a requirement for secondary sources, and makes no material difference, to use quotes from the mainstream. That has nothing to do with 'left-wing' bias. When it is clear (especially to experts, but actually to anybody who would take the time to read up the original science on the issue being discussed) that the mainstream reports are focusing on a fantasy or where the reporter has clearly not grasped the issue, then they are of no use to us (other than as commentary on themselves, perhaps). That isn't a 'right-wing' thing, although the correlation if it exists may be interesting to some. Second, I want to second KDP that it tends to be media-fuelled non-expert editors who flock to climate change articles wanting to insert coverage of 'latest revelations' from the press. These often sound plausible on first reading, and it may take a few days for the scientists to dig out the figures, the theory and the fuller story that puts the 'latest news' into context. Adequate refutation may already exist in the peer-reviewed literature, or it may take months to find its way there. Sometimes the point is so trivial that it never will (for example, some 'skeptic' has simply made up figures or misused good data in a graph on his Powerpoint slide). Either way, it is in the science-run blogs that these refutations will first appear. To allow the use of dodgy mainstream media reports, but disallow the use of established scientists' blogs and university home-pages to refute media blunders, 'tilts the playing field' alarmingly. --Nigelj (talk) 08:12, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Ah, I imagine this is your personal opinion; I disagree that journalists can be just as good at reviewing scientific sources as experts publishing in the peer reviewed literature. I have in past discussions acknowledged the problems of editors on the skeptical side pushing newspaper sources (many of which would be right wing). The "wing" is irrelevant, other than to say journalists have their biases and are not better or as good as the peer reviewed literature for summarising scientific literature. Really the beliefs some people have on sourcing standards is almost depressing, no wonder there is a WP:BATTLEGROUND.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 08:55, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

This discussion has veered off topic now, although it's interesting and certainly should be continued at a more appropriate venue. --TS 08:16, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

I think you are right, hence my short replies to wrap things up. Who knows, ArbCom may strengthen their principle(s) on sourcing after reading all of this, might not be a waste of time.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 08:55, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Note on 19.1

Even if it fails - then i consider it binding. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 23:00, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Sorry about my comment below on failed remedies. It would still be better if it were in place as an ArbCom remedy, making it more clear which definition of "uninvolved admin" could enforce the remedy, unless you're willing to accept this definition of "uninvolved admin" for the purpose of your voluntary restriction. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 00:34, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

One revert per what time period? (Sorry. Perhaps you specified elsewhere, but 19.1 doesn't specify....) — Arthur Rubin (talk) 01:37, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

One revert is a tighter version of 3RR (see link in remedy) so it's per 24 hour period.  Roger Davies 03:57, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Noted. Sorry about that. Some discretionary sanctions have been, in the past, 1RR / week. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 04:06, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Appeals process for discretionary sanctions

Thread moved to a more generic venue since this applies generally rather than to this case specifically. — Coren  01:53, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. Could we still update the appeals part of remedy 1.2 before the case closes? This would involve —

• pointing out that imposing admin, noticeboard and committee are not alternatives, but that editors should approach them in sequence, and move to the next only after proceedings at the "lower court" have concluded
• naming the page for appeals to the committee --JN466 11:19, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Cla (15) and KDP (19, 19.1) remedies

I would ask that the RfAr not be closed until a consensus is obtained on those remedies. Although I generally support Cla's positions and opposed KDP's a 4/8 vote does no one any good. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 00:24, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

If one of the active non-recused Arbs would vote yes or abstain, that would solve that problem. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 00:37, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

15 is passing (only 4 support votes are needed with 1-2 recusals). 19.1 was just posted a few hours ago; since the idea was originally suggested by Risker (who hasn't voted yet) I strongly suspect it will get the votes to pass. Guettarda (talk) 01:08, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

I thought the general recusals were already included in the header list at #Arbitrators active on this case, leaving 8 active arbitrators. If I'm wrong, I this section is unnecessary, and I apologize for wasting time. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 01:20, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I meant arbs who abstained (Roger used the word "recuse" in his abstention). With two of the 8 arbs in the 'abstain' column, only four votes are needed (see the table at the top of the PD page). Guettarda (talk) 01:46, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Regardless, 15 is passing because of the abstentions/recusals, and 19.1 is now passing. I'll tag this "resolved". — Arthur Rubin (talk) 03:35, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Remedy 3

I guess I missed why Lar and Steven Schultz did't get the Remedy 3 solution? Could it be their admin efforts, or something? Maybe a lesson for me is to act like an admin in the future to avoid battle ground behavior. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 03:15, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't edit in the area. So Remedy 3 doesn't apply to me unless I started. Can't speak for StS since he does. ++Lar: t/c 03:50, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

I hear you, folks say I've never made a valuable contribution to the area too, there must be subtle difference. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 03:58, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

(od) I suppose in principle we could go on writing FoFs and proposing sanctions for as long as editors are prepared to do the leg work to research and propose coherent drafts. The behaviour here on many levels has after all been abysmal enough. There comes a point though where it's best to close the case and leave any further enforcement to uninvolved admins. On this later point, we have specified what constitutes an uninvolved admin for enforcement in this case and that should go some way towards minimising future accusations of admin partiality.  Roger Davies 04:53, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Well, I'm not entirely sure that such a specification will work considering the past claims of uninvolvement by clearly involved admins. Who is going to monitor some of these admins after the case? Atren? Cla? On the other hand, if you specify some admins as involved, but miss a few will those few take that as a license to continue their behavior? The way I see it the AGW group became as bad as they were because they were repeatedly taught that they didn't have to compromise. Time and time again they were shown that if they were obstinate, rude and unforgiving then certain admins would always back them up and sanction their "opponents." It is highly probable that unless some of these admins are explicitly told that they are involved they will continue to behave as before and another group like this will be cultivated. TheGoodLocust (talk) 09:01, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Not realted to this case but I have seen situations were I have wonderd just how vague are the concepts of 'uninvilved' on wikipedia. But tjhat is a discusino that might best be had elsewhere.Slatersteven (talk) 09:47, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Funnily enough, I started one about uninvolved admins yesterday here.  Roger Davies 09:58, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Well, this case started with an issue between Lar and Steven Schultz, somehow that dispute evaded Remedy 3. I suspect the ongoing disruption and distractions must have helped. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 13:37, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

The original issue relating to Lar & Stephan Schultz was about administrator involvement. There are some findings of fact relating to this, but more directly - remedy 2 will abolish the climate change sanctions noticeboard while remedy 1.2 will prevent either of them from acting as an administrator in the climate change area (regardless of the FoFs about prior involvement). For the evidence presented, this is a more direct approach for them, about on par with remedy 3 for most others. Although, being named in this case, you can also be certain any editing they do in the topic area will be some of the most scrutinized. --InkSplotch (talk) 15:34, 11 October 2010 (UTC)