Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by MiszaBot II (talk | contribs) at 06:49, 21 October 2010 (Archiving 31 thread(s) (older than 90d) to Misplaced Pages talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Eastern European mailing list/Archive 2, Misplaced Pages talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Eastern European mailing list/Archive 1.). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Misplaced Pages Arbitration
About arbitrationTalk Arbitration policy (CU/OS) Guide to arbitration Noticeboard + Talk Search archived proceedings Ban appealsReport
Open proceedings All open requests Case requests Clarification and Amendment requests Arbitrator motion requests Enforcement requests
Active sanctions Contentious topics (Log) General sanctions Editor sanctions
Arbitration Committee Discuss+ Contact Members Procedures ElectionsTalk History Clerks+ Talk Clerk procedures Conflict of interest reports
Audit Talk StatisticsTalk Reports (pre-2016)
Track related changes
v t e

Important — please note The Committee, in passing the motion to open this case, provided explicit direction to all editors participating in this case: "Editors are expected to observe appropriate decorum on the case pages and in any other discussion of this incident." "Editors are instructed to refrain from disclosing on-wiki the name or other identifying information concerning any editor who does not edit under or disclose on-wiki his or her real-world identity. Any evidence that would have the potential effect of making such a disclosure shall not be posted on-wiki, but shall be e-mailed to the Arbitration Committee. The committee will take appropriate steps to ensure that no editor is sanctioned based on private evidence without an appropriate opportunity to respond to such evidence, while also seeking to ensure that editors' identifying information is not unnecessarily disclosed." "All editors, whether or not they are potential parties to the case, are strongly urged to exercise consideration and discretion in dealing both on- and off-wiki with all aspects of this highly sensitive situation. Any behavior that would unnecessarily inflame or widen the dispute should be avoided." The Clerk for this case is KnightLago (talk · contribs) who will be assisted by non-recused members of the Clerk team in enforcing the above rules. The Clerks will, wherever it deems necessary, refactor and remove statements where they violate the above directions, or where they violate the general standards of decorum and Misplaced Pages policies. The Clerks will, where required for particular egregious or repetitive violations, ban participants from the case pages for an appropriate period of time. Both the refactoring of statements, and case page bans, that are implemented by the Clerks, can be appealed to the Committee. If any user requires assistance in submitting private evidence to the Arbitrators in the method requested by Committee (see the second bullet point, above), please contact a member of the Clerks or, alternatively, an Arbitrator directly. —User:KnightLago (talk) 02:17, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Arbitration/Requests/Case/Eastern European mailing list page.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed

Archives: 1, 2, 3Auto-archiving period: 3 months

Request to amend prior case: Eastern European mailing list (2)

Permanent link Initiated by — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk at 03:04, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Case affected

Eastern European mailing list arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

1. Remedy 3

List of users affected by or involved in this amendment

• Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) (initiator)
• Piotrus (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request

• Piotrus

Amendment 1

• This is a request to amend EEML Remedy 3 to end the topic ban that applies to Piotrus and allow him to edit articles related to Eastern Europe.

Statement by Malik Shabazz

It has been more than six months since Piotrus was blocked and topic-banned. Since his return, he has been productive in other areas of Misplaced Pages. He has carefully observed the terms of his topic ban and avoided areas related to Eastern Europe.

Piotrus and I have a history. We got off on the wrong foot and found ourselves on opposite sides of edit wars that shouldn't have taken place. Since that time, he and I have mended fences. We've come to respect one another and I consider him one of my "Wikifriends". I was proud to have his support at my RfA.

Before his topic ban, Piotrus was very productive in articles having to do with Poland. He is responsible for 15 featured articles and 15 good articles (including 3 A-class articles) on Poland-related subjects.

In addition to his article-writing, Piotrus was the main force behind WP:POLAND. For a list of the tasks he performed, see Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Poland/Archive 3#Future of WikiProject Poland - assistants needed. He carried out these duties without asking for any special recognition; his only "reward" was the satisfaction of improving the encyclopedia.

Pursuant to the motion enacted May 5, Piotrus was allowed to "raise issues and discuss improvements to articles otherwise under the ban" at WT:POLAND. I have found his assistance at that page to be invaluable. (Please see WT:POLAND#Piotrus' to do list #1 for examples of what's been involved.) I and a few others have tried to keep up with Piotrus' suggestions, but this represents but a fraction of what should be done for the WikiProject; it is also a very inefficient way of getting things done.

As one example of his noncontroversial editing this year, Piotrus has used his class at the University of Pittsburgh to improve the encyclopedia and try to bring several articles to GA status. (Please see Misplaced Pages:School and university projects/User:Piotrus/Summer 2010 for details.) He has also become involved to a greater extent with WP:SOCIOLOGY. Since coming back to Misplaced Pages, he has had two (non-EE) articles promoted to GA and written 15 DYKs.

I believe Piotrus has learned from his mistakes in the EEML case and should be allowed once again to edit in the subject area of Eastern Europe.

Statement by Skäpperöd

Constructive edits to sociology topics, where Piotrus has some expertise, must not be used as a basis for granting Piotrus access to EE topics again, where he used the same expertise in a malicious way for years:

• the 2006 RfC on Piotrus already contained evidence for canvassing and agitation in favour of his group and against his group's targets.
• the 2007 Piotrus Arbcom has acknowledged the battlefield but tried an amnesty solution. This approach has failed and was replaced by the discretionary sanctions of the subsequent Digwuren Arbcom.
• the 2008 Piotrus2 Arbcom (later renamed EED) acknowledged that off-wiki coordination by Piotrus' group is "almost certain", but refrained from passing a respective remedy because it lacked "definitive proof"
• the 2009 EEML Arbcom was equipped with that definitive proof, identified Piotrus as a "ringleader" guilty of cover-up actions, abuse of administrator tools, a "variety of disruptive activities coordinated on the mailing list, including 'tag team' edit-warring (...), abuse of dispute resolution processes (...), proxying for a blocked user (...) and encouraging and advising list members to circumvent Misplaced Pages policies", and canvassing
• in Nov 2009, a month before the case's closure, Piotrus participated in the Tylman votestacking
• in Dec 2009 Piotrus was identified by Radeksz as still coordinating off-wiki (the months thereafter, he served his block)

There are few editors with a similar record of disruption, which has already caused a huge level of stress and waste of time (add up the kB of the above linked cases for a start). What makes Piotrus' case quite extraordinary is his long-term successful deception, including impertinences such as:

• Piotrus' proposed FoF in the Piotrus2 Arbcom, reading "There is no group (WP:CABAL, WP:TAGTEAM) of Polish editor acting together violating policies and damaging this project. Piotrus is not a leader of such a (nonexistent) group."
• Piotrus' reply to Irpen's offer for a fresh start: "I have not done the things...", "I can promise you I will not 'call in reverts' to create battlegrounds, I will not stack votes with otherwise uninterested meatpuppets, I will not seek to block content opponents..."

The "prolific Piotrus" and the "malicious Piotrus" are one and the same person, and the latter had long enough been free to deceive the project, including Arbcom, hiding behind the first. Skäpperöd (talk) 09:37, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Piotrus

I have asked Malik to post this request on my behalf, as a representative of WikiProject Poland and an editor familiar with my editing history (both past and present). I believe that Misplaced Pages is a project build on trust and cooperation among the users, and thus I am heartened that he has agreed to do this; his (and WP:POLAND's) support means a lot to me.

I have learned over the years that no matter how good one's intentions, it is all too easy to fall down a slippery slope. Having seen what happens when one descends this route, I plan on ensuring that errors of the past will not repeat themselves in the future.

It has been about a year since any complaint about my editing was raised (in the arbitration case I am asking to be amended). I have contributed, uncontroversially, to EE-related subjects for years before (including in the 4-month period that the case was ongoing). I have, over the years, till late December, contributed over ~20 FAs, ~20 GAs and ~300 DYKs, roughly ~90% of them in the Eastern European subjects). Even after the case ended, I was able to help out with addressing the BLP issues and then GAing Lech Wałęsa article. Throughout that time, I contributed uncontroversially to Polish Misplaced Pages, Polish and English Wikisource, and the Commons projects. I have written several GAs and over a dozen DYKs in the past few months on English Misplaced Pages as well.

I would like to return to my former levels of activity, in my areas of expertise (Eastern Europe), just like after a six months break I was able to resume clean up work for WP:POLAND. I have a nearly finished Poland-history-related Featured Article rusting in my sandbox on Polish Misplaced Pages. I would like to resume my work on creating the economic history of Poland article. I would like to resume GA work on Juliusz Słowacki. A sample list of further article content subjects I plan to work on is visible on my userpage (usually I go through most of my to-do boxes in few months; obviously they have been mostly frozen since last December). There are also many wikiproject gnomish tasks I cannot help out with (and which are not being carried out) (more "to do" not being done). I often spot vandalism on my 3k+ watchlist, but instead of reverting it I have to report it to AIV or arbitrators I see online, which often means it takes hours between I see vandalism and it is reverted. And being able to answer simple requests from help, including those from sitting Arbitrators, instead of directing them to WT:POLAND, would be nice, too.

On a final note, I'd like to echo Radeksz calls for all editors in Eastern Europe to assume good faith and work collaboratively. This is what this project is about. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 11:37, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Response to Skäpperöd (first and only, I don't intend to engage in discussion on those pages, per the rules here): I am impressed you managed to post your statement so swiftly, even before I managed to post mine. I will just repeat what others have said in response to your comments in other recent amendments: 1) do you have any diffs from this year to bring, instead of rehashing old history? 2) Can you explain how this amendment would damage (instead of helping) the project - i.e. focus on the future, not the past (again...)? And 3) please stop misrepresenting what happened: a) the 2006 (2006, seriously?) RfC had no evidence, but unfounded allegations, not supported by majority of editors b) the 2008 ArbCom finding you cite did not mention any side or editor, you insert "Piotrus' group" without any basis, badly misrepresenting that finding c) I was within my right to vote in that AfD, the vote was not coordinated d) the mailing group, as stated before (including, I am sure, in the evidence archive) was created in December 2008; please stop alleging to the contrary. Lastly: I respect the work you have done in relation to German-Polish history and related subjects, and I'd hope you could see beyond our differences, assume good faith and try to work together with me and others to create a better project, in the spirit of good-faithed cooperation. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 11:37, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Darwinek

I always perceived a global all-encompassing topic ban on Central and Eatern European topics as too harsh. One can edit or create articles about e.g. Poland or Belarus without any controversy. The current ban prohibits Piotrus to create e.g. even a tiny stub about, say, some Russian economist or Polish river. I think the current ban should be ammended and liberalized. I believe Piotrus will not misuse it and will be of great help to WikiProject Poland, where he was most active in the past. I am sure he learned from his past mistakes and would responsibly use his ability to edit the Central and East European articles again. - Darwinek (talk) 12:30, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Lysy

If Piotrus served his so far de-facto probation well then it seems to prove that the sanctions did their job, are no longer needed, and in fact are harmful to the project content-wise. However, if the amendment is accepted and the ban is raised, I would suggest asking Piotrus for a parole, to help him remember that he should treat any Eastern-European issues in the same constructive manner as any other articles. Other than that, I'm totally for lifting the sanctions, as they seem to serve no purpose now. As for the Skäpperöd's comments, none of them seems relevant to the recent half a year period that is discussed here as the base for the amendment request. --Lysy 08:30, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Deacon of Pndpetzim

Essentially Piotrus' argument is: I might realise some of the things that happened in the past are unfortunate, but listen guys, I've been banned from this area for a few months and in those few months I haven't done anything bad in the area. So, obviously the ban is pointless and if you make me serve the ban I was originally given, you are being crueler than you need to be and depriving the 'Pedia of great content.

It is not news that Piotrus did a lot of writing for Polish and eastern European history articles. We knew that when we imposed the ban. The problem we had with Piotrus (or his side-kick Radek for that matter) is not this, nor that we discovered that all the allegations of co-ordinated bullying, edit-warring, wikilawyering and so on which had been leveled at him for years and ignored turned out to be true, but rather that that wasn't even the half of it.

You discovered that email archive, and you acted ... you sent out a message. You can of course be sure that they learned not to be so stupid as to have a email list that size and to record it so zealously. But you actually think they'll stop this kind of thing? Why would they? It was great for them ... and worked well, only trouble was that it leaked. So now that he has been caught and topic-banned, it is to be believed that he therefore saw the moral error of his ways? ;) Yeah, of course. He must have.

But sure, he might have ... he just might have. It is no matter, you guys don't know either way. And as appealing to your conscience as it might be to "give the benefit of the doubt", you have a responsibility to treat the possibility of gross misconduct as seriously as history suggests you should.

Moreover, you have already passed judgment on these offenses, offenses of the highest gravity. Is upholding previous ArbCom sanctions made in the aftermath of a long investigation against a background of rare community outrage really something that needs to trouble us as much as is being suggested? If the previous rulings were just a political show to quell the outrage which existed at the time, then sure you would revisit it after a few months. If you take it seriously otherwise, then overturning or significantly lightening the bans is very brave message to send to future perpetrators of such activity or to those contemplating such activity.

Finally, Piotrus has expertise in sociology and economics, and it is good that he can focus his attention there. It is good that he can focus his efforts there rather than in areas where he has a strong bias and a history of using wiki-gansterism and co-ordinated edit-warring in pursuit of ideological goals, where he has previously conspired to and succeeded by such methods in undermining and circumventing natural wikipedia safeguards like WP:NPOV, WP:BRD, WP:EW and so on. It is however very important for Piotrus to learn ... and for others to learn ... that once you do certain things, Misplaced Pages will come down on you and you won't get out of it just by waiting a few months and convincing a friend in good standing to make a case for you. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 01:46, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Charles Matthews

My experience as a past ArbCom member is that Piotrus is rather good at the wheedling tone (which he can employ on behalf of allies, however egregious their shortcomings). As editors, we have met on the site infrequently, but when we did it was shortly after the close of the second Eastern Europe case. My impression was that Piotrus had learned nothing: plain advocacy of a Polish-centred POV, warnings against conspiratorial Lithuanians, and so on. I think the ArbCom should apply here a thought from the old book of remedies, namely that sanctions which create a good editor out of a troublesome one are advantageous to the site. I would oppose varying them until there was evidence of a more profound change of heart. This seems a routine appeal based on the passage of time. Charles Matthews (talk) 08:38, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Kotniski

As usual, I fully support relaxation of Piotrus' restrictions, which seem to serve no purpose except to deprive Misplaced Pages of the useful contributions of a very productive editor. Whatever he is supposed to have done wrong, I think it's pretty clear he isn't going to do it again now that all eyes are on him.--Kotniski (talk) 09:56, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Nihil novi

• The lifting of over-reaching sanctions seems to me the preferable course. Everyone commits transgressions, and these should be monitored for. But one no longer imposes long-term banishments or capital punishment for the hundreds of crimes and misdemeanors for which such drastic sanctions were applied as recently as a couple of centuries ago. Nihil novi (talk) 12:00, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Igny

My statement seems superfluous by now, but after looking over recent history of Piotrus contributions, and knowing quite well the positive influence Piotrus had on all the usual hotheads in EE disputes, I fully support lifting the sanctions. (Igny (talk) 23:29, 30 June 2010 (UTC))

Statement by Jan eissfeldt

i contributed to the amendment-request in april by raising the point of his university cooperation projects. therefore, i have the feeling that i have the duty to report the review results of his spring-project (may-june):

as long as i can see now, it worked without guideline problems or conflicts and the participants improved social- and political science related articles like periphery countries and great divergence. his project reached the well-established standards in the content- as well as the perspective of civilized behavior, best regards --Jan eissfeldt (talk) 15:20, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Visor

I fully support lifting these sanctions — his works measured by new articles, high quality articles (FAs/GAs), working around community and overall contribution are really worthy for WP. He will be able to improve many of EE- and Poland-related articles. Piotrus' works will be examined very deeply and all negative aspects will be considered quickly. Visor (talk) 07:50, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Heimstern

I could probably sum it up this way: Listen to Deacon. These sanctions need to be strong and maybe even harsh because the case in question was not some isolated case; it was the latest in a string of EE-related cases that involved Piotrus (and loads of others) and it was, quite bluntly, hammer time. Lifting them now is not in the best interests of our EE-related articles or our editors who are editing these articles after actually leaving their POVs at the door. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 19:30, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Petri Krohn

I would not object to Piotrus creating content on Poland and I feel that his inability to do so is a great loss to Misplaced Pages. However, this was carefully weighted in the original Arbcom case, with Piotrus only narrowly escaping permaban.

What I see as disturbing is that Piotrus is all too eager in engaging in the your-nation-genocided-my-nation battles of Eastern Europe. I believe this edit from 1 June 2010 is a violation of his topic ban. The article, Cultural genocide is at the very heart of the Eastern European disputes. The edit, while it may seem innocent, in fact pushes a POV wording that the United Nations could not agree on in 60 years of debating the issue. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 14:56, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Further discussion

Statements here may address all the amendments, but individual statements under each proposed amendment are preferred. If there is only one proposed amendment, then no statements should be added here.

Statement by yet another editor

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

• Closing as not mathematically possible to pass, per request of an arbitrator. NW (Talk) 01:41, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Arbitrator views and discussion

• I have always thought that some of the remedies in the Eastern European mailing list case swept much too broadly, although my suggestions to this effect (see the proposed decision page in the case) were not agreeable to the other arbitrators. In this instance, I think some relief from the sanction is appropriate at this stage, but I am not sure whether the better course is to lift it altogether (and then closely monitor developments!) or to more narrowly tailor it to the specific areas of conflict. I would appreciate some input on this issue. Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:42, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
• Recused on EEML.  Roger Davies 12:44, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
• My thoughts at this point are not to lift the sanctions in this case at this point, as I am concerned about some things. Possibly another month or two.. SirFozzie (talk) 12:27, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
• Too soon after the last amendment. I would want to give it more time to see how the previous amendment is working out in practice. I would suggest three months between successive amendments, independent of whether other people are submitting amendments as well, and even if we haven't been consistent about this in the past. Having a slew of EEML-related amendments at around the same time sends the wrong signal, in my view. Each previous amendment should be accompanied by a note on the minimum period before a new amendment can be filed relating to that editor, otherwise we get overwhelmed. Carcharoth (talk) 12:57, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
• While I think I've been among the most sympathetic arbitrators to the early lifting of EEML amendments (I just moved my third such motion in the request above, and also moved the two earlier motions narrowing the topic bans), I'm not comfortable doing so here. We're dealing with a long history of problematic behaviour in this case, and also the behaviour of someone who, as a then-administrator, should have known better. I take particular note of the comments of Deacon and Charles Matthews, which I find persuasive. I do not agree with Carch's comments that this amendment request should be rejected purely because a different amendment was recently accepted. Steve Smith (talk) 15:53, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
• Recused on EEML. Shell 19:53, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
• Opposed premature. and per steve. — Rlevse • Talk • 00:33, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
• Concur with my colleagues who feel this is premature, particularly Steve Smith. Risker (talk) 19:38, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
• Recused. Kirill  03:10, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Request to amend prior case: Eastern European mailing list (5)

Permanent link

Initiated by PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK at 19:58, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Case affected

Eastern European mailing list arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

1. Remedy 11A)

List of users affected by or involved in this amendment

• Biruitorul (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Dc76 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Digwuren (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• jacurek (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Martintg (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Miacek (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Piotrus (talk · contribs · former admin: blocks · protections · deletions · rights · meta · local rights)
• Radeksz (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Tymek (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Vecrumba (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)

At alternate case, but proposed as impacted:

• Russavia (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request

• Biruitorul
• Dc76
• Digwuren
• jacurek
• Martintg
• Miacek
• Piotrus
• Radeksz
• Tymek
• Russavia

Amendment 1

1. Request to limit term of interaction bans.
   • This is a request to limit the interaction ban 11A) to be minimally co-terminus with remaining remedies in effect.
   • This is a request to limit an associated reciprocal interaction ban at another case to be minimally co-terminus with EEML remedy 11A)
   • This is a request (additional) to lift the interaction ban to which an editor is subject once all other remedies to which the editor is subject under the EEML case are satisfied (expire) or are lifted.
2. This is a request to modify the interaction ban to promote positive community interaction within the confines of any other remedies in effect.
   • As pertains to this case.
   • As pertains to an associated reciprocal interaction ban at another case

Stated as a single amendment because request is for Remedy 11A) to be reworded to address outstanding and inter-related concerns. One inclusive proposal is provided.

Amendment 1, revised/consolidated

Regarding the reciprocal interaction bans, EEML <-> Russavia, all editors so sanctioned may nevertheless comment positively on other editors in the third person. Any individual EEML editor and Russavia may appeal jointly to lift their interpersonal interactivity ban should they both desire to do so, committing to uphold Misplaced Pages's standards of conduct. The bans on unnecessary commentary and interaction otherwise remain in effect.

Per feedback below on clarity and comments I have received here and elsewhere. I believe this would build a bridge toward a more collegial environment. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 00:08, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Vecrumba

Over a week has passed and this contribution by Russavia has not garnered a response. I commend Russavia for their positive comments regarding Miacek; nevertheless, statements such as (my emphasis):

• "although I am under a ban from commenting on EEML members, I don't really care"
• "I was disappointed, and somewhat disgusted, that Miacek was part of that group, considering the amount of harrassment I was put under by the group"
• "rather than the propaganda pushing that the EEML partook in"
• "you were never part of the harrassment against myself"

are both combative and an inappropriate re-litigation of EEML. I interpret Russavia's comments and the lack of any reprimand as proof that the current interaction ban structure is not working.

Accordingly, I am proposing changes to interaction bans currently in effect in order to facilitate uniform enforcement while also promoting positive community conduct.

• I believe #1 above is self-explanatory. In particular, the interaction bans (at EEML and Russavia's reciprocal subsequent) expiring also addresses problems regarding their interpretation and potential restrictions on the activities of editors even after all other remedies are satisfied. As currently worded, the interaction ban can be strictly interpreted as allowing only for necessary disputes, banning other interaction on any article, talk page, or user talk page; that is, once my topic ban expires, I can't edit any article requiring interaction with Russavia, which is equivalent to a topic ban covering any article Russavia chooses to edit. Hopefully unintended, as discussing article content would be a necessary action, but, again, a possible interpretation as there is no differentiating positive and not so positive interaction and no specific mention of what is, in fact, allowed outside the conflict venue.

• I believe #2 reflects both feedback I received when (nevertheless, still) blocked for supporting lifting Russavia's ban as well as the lack of action regarding Russavia's (positive) comments regarding the lifting of Miacek's ban. If relationships among editors are to improve, there should be a venue for that before resumption of full activity in the field of prior conflict. Specifically I am proposing the following as the amended remedy (per #1 and #2):

11A) The editors sanctioned by name in this decision are prohibited from commenting on accusing or unnecessarily interacting with confronting Russavia (talk · contribs) on any page of Misplaced Pages, except for purposes of legitimate and necessary dispute resolution. Positive and constructive interactions which do not violate other remedies in effect are exempt and encouraged. This remedy expires for all editors sanctioned under EEML at the satisfaction (expiration) of all other EEML remedies with explicit terms of duration. This remedy expires for specific editors if all other EEML remedies with explicit terms of duration regarding said editor have been satisfied or lifted.

• Responding to Martintg, I suggest the interaction ban stay in place until all term remedies expire. That could be two years (based on Digwuren's ban and then topic ban. It can always be shortened. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 21:24, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

I trust this proposed amendment is viewed as moving us forward. If so, the updated wording needs to be applied to amend Russavia's interaction ban as well.

Lastly, I have not reported the offending portion of Russavia's violation of their interaction ban because I hoped we were done with EEML.

@Shell, I'm not here to re-litigate EEML or to be the keeper or policeman of anyone who has cast my on-Wiki activities as being less than honorable. Old Latvian saying from my now dear and departed mother, when you stomp on shit it only spreads and stinks. I see Russavia has reported themselves at enforcement. That is either noble or cynical, but any block will (IMHO) increase their sense of martyrdom at my hands rather than engender any improvement in attitude. I'm the one suffering a topic ban for a year for (as I explained at the proceedings) participating in a consensus-related discussion at worst three times that I had not already found and contributed (and I would have found them); and the finding that I canvassed was a grossly bad-faith interpretation of my absconded personal correspondence. I've accepted the punishment despite that nothing I said mattered. I should have asked for the IP logs to exonerate myself instead of thinking ArbCom would accept my explanation of bulk-reading my Email. Water under the bridge. That's how WP works. Time to move on.

   My hope was to open just a small window for positive communications. That would have allowed Russavia to say something nice about Miacek without feeling the need to editorialize on his interaction ban leading to editorializing regarding his (unsubstantiated) victimology in what (IMHO) was an inevitable chain reaction. Reporting Russavia would just be treating him the way he has treated me. I had no desire to take that route. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 19:56, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Following on to feedback at my talk... I think there are two categories of communication to consider, first where one can comment positively on an editor in the third person, the second which involves personal interaction. I think it is worthwhile to promote the former so that when it does come time for the latter—and that can be by mutual consent if otherwise under restriction—that can stand a better chance of moving past prior conflicts. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 20:59, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Statement by other editor

{Other editors are free to comment on this amendment as necessary. Comments here should be directed only at the above proposed amendment.}

• Comment. While there may or may not be some merit in tweaking the wording, lifting the interaction bans concurrently with any relaxation of any topic ban is too early. I'm happy with the current interaction bans as they stand, as it helps to settle things down and provide clear air. --Martin (talk) 20:44, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
  • Point taken. How do you feel about the first part, that is, allowing for positive interaction if not otherwise restricted by topic ban? As for lifting, I would accept a statement which indicates the term of the interaction ban will be reviewed at a given point. I'd still like clarification whether normal interaction on content at an article (once there is no topic ban in effect) is explicitly permitted. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 21:21, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
    • The interaction ban ought to be lifted on a case by case basis. If two people want to let bygones be bygones and collaborate such as here, then that's perfectly okay, the interaction ban should be relaxed in that specific instance. In such cases a joint declaration from the two parties of their desire to work together should be sufficient to lift the interaction ban in that specific instance and the case log be appropriately annotated. If the wording of the remedy was tweeked to allow such a fast track method of appeal, that's okay with me. --Martin (talk) 23:35, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
• IMO lifting the interaction ban would be premature, although I would certainly support clarification that it is inapplicable whenever there is mutual consent to interaction, as is apparently the case with Miacek. Nobody is going to enforce the ban in such cases anyway. Nevertheless although I am under a ban from commenting on EEML members, I don't really care, I was disappointed, and somewhat disgusted, that Miacek was part of that group, considering the amount of harrassment I was put under by the group, rather than the propaganda pushing that the EEML partook in and the like are inappropriate for a good reason, and should remain so. Colchicum (talk) 01:30, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
• This is a ridiculous WP:Drama. Russavia tells that he is not going to abide his interaction ban, just a week after coming back from his block for violating the ban . Vecrumba reacts by filing this amendment. Russavia posts an AE statement , then tells he did it by mistake instead of his userspace . People, that's disruptive. If anything, it proves that interaction bans were a good decision and must be strictly enforced. Biophys (talk) 23:36, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Re to Vecrumba. "Breaking ice" is easy. As soon as your topic ban expire or lifted, go to the subjects that Russavia edits and edit them in the way he likes. Debate the improvement of content and agree with him. Then, your request to amend the interaction ban would be very much reasonable.Biophys (talk) 15:09, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

• • I had two choices. One was to report Russavia as if I'm their policeman, the way they reported me for violating my ban at "Aspic" for example. The other was to find a way to move on as plenty of admins took notice of Russavia's comments, after all, Miacek's appeal was granted, and did absolutely nothing. Since the administrative system is broken, it's up to editors to find ways to break the ice to put past conflicts behind us as the administrative folk aren't going to be of much assistance, IMHO. If this results in drama, things are worse than I thought because it means that after serving more than half my ban, I can't look forward to anything having improved when I return to EE topics. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 02:12, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
  • p.s. I always took pride that in all my years of experience I had managed to never do an ANI or AE except twice, once to ask that Irpen receive some advice (explicitly stating I wasn't looking for a ban or block) and once at Russavia's meltdown at Soviet Story. I don't intend to stoop to the endless sniping being fed by the endless well of WP bad faith. The day I think WP can't be improved, that we can't all be better, I'm leaving. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 02:23, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Amendment 2

• Link to principle, finding of fact, or remedy to which this amendment is requested
• Details of desired modification

Statement by your username (2)

{Statement by editor filing request for amendment. Contained herein should be an explanation and evidence detailing why the amendment is necessary.}

Statement by other editor (2)

{Other editors are free to comment on this amendment as necessary. Comments here should be directed only at the above proposed amendment.}

Further discussion

Statements here may address all the amendments, but individual statements under each proposed amendment are preferred. If there is only one proposed amendment, then no statements should be added here.

Statement by yet another editor

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Per direction of Rlevse, I am closing this amendment request as "no action taken". NW (Talk) 03:15, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Arbitrator views and discussion

• Recused. Kirill  07:05, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
• I'm recused on part of this, but as an aside, if you see a violation like that please report it rather than waiting for someone to notice and do something. With hundreds of different restrictions in place and the sheer volume of edits to Arb related pages, it's always possible something will get missed. Shell 11:07, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
• Recused.  Roger Davies 12:29, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose due to too vague and confusing. — Rlevse • Talk • 20:56, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
• I don't see a consensus emerging for this change at this time. Newyorkbrad (talk) 20:56, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Request to amend prior case: Eastern European Mailing List (4)

Initiated by Martin (talk) at 20:58, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Case affected

Eastern European mailing list arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

1. Remedy 7

List of users affected by or involved in this amendment

• Martintg (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)

Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request

• N/A

Amendment 1

• This is a request to amend EEML Remedy 7 to end the topic ban that applies to Martintg and allow him to edit articles related to Eastern Europe.

Statement by Martintg

The locus of the WP:EEML case relates to off-wiki co-ordination and canvassing, which was done via a mail list. In the nearly nine months since I've taken stock, while taking a break to pursue some postgrad study. During that time I've reflected on what went wrong. I joined the maillist primarily as a convenient way to socially network with a bunch of people I've come to know through contributing to Misplaced Pages. Unfortunately this convenience led members of the list, myself included, into behaviour that crossed the line. This was due to a kind of mob mentality and a sense of hubris that developed along with it. This I regret. Prior to joining that list I was an editor in good standing, a clear block log, no ANI reports, no 3RR reports, no RFC/Us, no ArbCom cases about me, nothing.

In support I would like the committee to consider:

1. my previously un-problematic record (clean block log prior to joining the EEML and this affirmation of my previously good standing), indicating there is no issue of recidivism
2. my previous relaxation had caused no problem
3. no violations of any WP:EEML sanctions since the case closed
4. your support for the relaxation of the topic ban for other editors
5. my expression of regret at the trouble caused by EEML membership and undertaking to put all that behind me

Since December I have created some articles on German politicians and political organisations and had sourced a small number of Estonian biographies without any issues (many were not notable so I hadn't bothered with those) after I requested and was granted a relaxation to my topic ban.

In regard to my plans in the area, I would like to continue to expand the range of arts and literature topics for Wikiproject Estonia. Previously I had filled in many significant gaps such as Culture of Estonia, along with a lot of related articles on literary figures (for example August Sang, Villem Grünthal-Ridala, Johannes Aavik), movements (e.g. Arbujad, Young Estonia and Siuru) and institutions like Art Museum of Estonia and Estonian Literary Museum. (A more comprehensive list is on my user page). There is still a lot to do, as you can see by the red links in Template:Culture_of_Estonia. Despite my continuing studies I expect to devote a little more of my time than in the past few months, as I do enjoy contributing my free time to Misplaced Pages.

Having ended such off-wiki co-ordination, and given an undertaking not to engage in such behaviour going forward, the conditions that led to the problematical behaviour no longer exists. There will be no off-wiki coordination, no canvassing, no usage of hidden communication to create the appearance of a consensus. I have learnt my lesson, will ensure this will be avoided in the future.

On a final note, I could have just as easily waited out the remainder of my topic ban and quietly slipped back into editing the area without subjecting myself to this, without having to acknowledge the issues that led to topic ban or make an undertaking in regard to the future. The fact I am requesting an early relaxation and thus am prepared to acknowledge these issues and make the undertaking should be viewed as a positive development by the committee and be applauded, not ignored or viewed sceptically (which would be wholly unjustified given my previous good standing and good behaviour since).

Response to Motions

After nearly eight weeks of waiting, I am appreciative that the Committee is finally acting on this and has proposed a couple of motions. But I have to question whether Brad's proposed motion isn't a pandora's box of gaming potential (as it was originally pointed out when he first proposed it in the EEML case). Not gaming by me, but by my opponents who would seek to exploit the ambiguity present to game and shop for admin action.

This isn't an idle concern, recently Biophys was topic banned from editing articles about the Soviet Union and former Soviet Republics , yet when he edited Pyotr Chaadayev, an 18th Century figure of Imperial Russia (thus clearly not a former Soviet republic and outside the scope of his ban), that didn't stop his opponents from claiming otherwise , with one going as far as suggesting that Biophys broke his topic ban because the source of the quote he inserted into Pyotr Chaadayev was from a book written by an author who also wrote about the Soviet Union!, while admins like Jechochman ominously choose to take the negative view, despite Shell clarifying the scope of the topic ban

So I'm not confident that creating an article as innocuous as Visual arts in Estonia will not attract the attention of my opponents who would attempt to wiki-lawyer a case that I had violated this new amended topic ban and shop for admin action, given that the Soviet period had a significant impact on visual arts in Estonia. I don't think it would be fair on me to provide such a vague amendment that has the potential to be gamed and invite such a circus to decend upon me.

Therefore, given that I've already served almost 8 month of my topic ban, I ask that the committee take into consideration my former good standing, post ban good behaviour and assurances going forward (which seemed sufficient here so why aren't mine?) and support the first motion to lift my ban entirely so that I can have clear air to make a positive contribution without the threat of vexatious litigation. --Martin (talk) 06:40, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Igny

I can not recommend the lift of the ban for Martin based on his recent WP activity. In the recent 100 edits he just wasted everyone's time when participating in Russavia-Biophys EEML-related ArbCom case, and after some break just when EEML case was due for review and just when others filed for an amendment Martin rushed with several BLP fixes for EE related persons as if it was simply done to satisfy the previous amendment and justify a new one. (Igny (talk) 04:12, 8 July 2010 (UTC))

Update: I understand I could be too harsh in my statement and quite possibly our personal clashes in the past contributed to this. But in any case a "site-wide self-imposed ban" is not the right way to deal with topic bans. Topic bans were placed in part to reduce battleground mentality in controversial areas and productive work elsewhere was needed to demonstrate how an editor in question copes with withdrawal from the battleground. Just going into self-imposed exile for the length of the topic ban (regardless of the real life constraints) does poor job answering the question whether editor's problematic behavior occurs again when he returns to the EE disputes. I still think that Martin's lift of the ban is premature at the moment. Also tu quoque was not the right counter-argument to my point above.(Igny (talk) 13:19, 8 July 2010 (UTC))

Re NYB and SirFozzie, I understand that you are willing to put your trust in that Martintg will not return to the "previous behavior". Could you clarify by showing examples of particular behavior that might warrant reinstatement of the ban? (Igny (talk) 21:10, 20 July 2010 (UTC))

Statement by Biophys

I support lifting the ban for Martin because he was productive and created sixty six new pages. Whatever problems he might have in the past, six months was a long time, and Martin was never a major "violator" anywhere. So I wonder what was the reason for the statements against him? Most probably, this is happening because he commented in a number of cases, including my case (which he was allowed to do). He should not be commenting on any cases according to the anonymous e-mailer to Petri. No so. In fact, the comments by Marting on-wiki were very much legitimate, much better than the cowardly letter by the anonymous emailer to Petri. Biophys (talk) 12:28, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Statement by The Four Deuces

I object to lifting this remedy. Considerable time was spent on the EEML case and its members, rather than accepting the facts presented, wasted months of time of arbitrators and witnesses and were very offensive to them. Martintg's defence is basically that he fell into the wrong crowd and he is sorry. However, Martintg does not mention any actions he took that he regrets, any articles that he and his colleagues edited and now wish to repair or any editor he offended he now wishes to apologize to. This group shared a minority political point of view and damaged the neutrality of numerous articles and continued to collaborate off-wiki even after the case was presented against them. They do not accept that Misplaced Pages articles should be neutral and tied up the time of numerous editors. While it may be that they will no longer coordinate their efforts, their approach as individuals is damaging to neutrality. It is irritating that as I and other editors were arguing with Martintg and his colleagues and they were presenting arguments against us that off-wiki there were agreeing that our arguments made sense and trying to develop a new approach. Surely editors like this drive away most of the editors we want to attract, people who have the ability to write articles and those who remain are tied up in silly disputes. Dispute resolution, reporting editors for 3RR, writing Wikiquette and ANI reports are extemely time-consuming and allowing editors like Martintg will only discourage capable editors who are discouraged by the processes to counter editors like Martintg. TFD (talk) 04:20, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Petri Krohn

I loathe getting in any way involved in the Misplaced Pages arbitration process and have thus far been able to avoid any involvement – so much so, that I have not even written a word to my defense in the now infamous WP:DIGWUREN case. However, someone, who wishes to remain anonymous, contacted me, and – knowing the strong feelings I have privately expressed about the issue at hand – implied that I am a pussy if I do not express my strongest objection to this motion. He also sent me evidence (see appendix) he had prepared in response to Martin's latest comments.

Martin's actions on the Internet, on and off Misplaced Pages, show that his only interest on the web is promoting a fringe nationalistic agenda, or in Misplaced Pages terms, he is a single purpose account. Since our paths first crossed sometime in early 2007 the underlying dispute has taken the form of a global ideological war over the legacy of the 20th century. I believe in some ways the early editing disputes and the formulation of opposing positions on Misplaced Pages talk pages have later influenced the positions some of the main players in this battle have taken. I may be as much involved in this ideological battle as Marting is. However I have not used Misplaced Pages article space as a platform to promote my fringe ideas. I will rather let the Historical Truth Commission and the Simon Wiesenthal Center speak for me.

From this POVish point of expertise I can testify that Marting is the chief battle axe of the opposing side. He is not the benign Wikignome he now pretends to be. Anything he touches will turn into distortion of facts or into a political battlefield. His presence on Misplaced Pages, in the contested subjects, is venom to the key principle of neutral point-of-view. So far he has shown no interest in editing outside his chosen battlefield, for example in his field of professional expertise.

For several years now Martin has been waging a politically motivated attack campaign against me, that is my Misplaced Pages account and the real life me. This has extended to multiple forums on the Internet outside Misplaced Pages. In the evidence sent to me were new instances of this campaign, unknown to me previously. If this proposed motion were to pass, I feel that I will finally have to start an arbitration case against Marting on this issue.

I have no objections to Martin using his freedom of speech to promote his ideas on the Internet. However, I cannot see why – having broken the key principles of Misplaced Pages – he should again be given a license to distort Misplaced Pages to fit his political agenda. -- Petri Krohn (talk)

Amendment – I find this latest edit by Martintg a clear indication that he is NOT ready to enter into editing EE topics. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 06:16, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Vecrumba

To TheFourDeuces' gross misrepresentations, suppositions, and personal attacks, I invite him to provide evidence where anything I (or other EEML members) have represented on Misplaced Pages is other than a fair and accurate representation of reputable sources—and representing majority scholarly opinion on the Baltics and Eastern Europe. I regret that more than half a year has passed since imposition of the topic ban and TFD is not alone in continuing to demonstrate offensive bad faith in re-litigating EEML with unfounded charges.

I believe Martintg is ready to return to productive editing. If his behavior is less than exemplary, ArbCom will be watching. Perhaps a review at three months to "re-up" the lifting of his topic ban for the rest of the original term if impartial, uninvolved editors have a genuine concern. Martintg has nothing to fear from objective scrutiny. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 23:27, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

@Jehochman: Please desist from further discussion of private correspondence. Any discussion of you emanated from your acting as a proxy filing an arbitration request as a direct result of Offliner's lobbying you. I regret needing to remind you that you were the origin and only reason for your own mention. This is the second instance of your discussing private correspondence and professing to be a victim of EEML editors. At least I now know (your feeling you were victimized when you, in fact, victimized Baltic and EE editors) where your outrageous accusation came from that I likened Giano to Nazi Germany at the EEML proceedings. Please consider taking your own advice and stepping away for a spot of tea. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 01:17, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Artem Karimov

I will keep it short. Pro-nationalist editors involved in disrupting Misplaced Pages should be topic-banned for quite some time. I doubt that lifting Marting's ban would be a net positive for the project. Artem Karimov (talk | edits) 12:52, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Jehochman

I oppose any loosening of sanctions on Martintg, unless there is a specific restriction against pursuing past disputes stemming from the EEML Case. Per my explanation here, Martintg has recently been violating or testing the limits of his existing topic ban. My name featured prominently in the mailing list archives as somebody to be neutralized. It is not at all appropriate for Martintg to be carrying on, today, a vendetta against me. Jehochman 01:46, 30 August 2010 (UTC) and 12:15, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Further discussion

Statements here may address all the amendments, but individual statements under each proposed amendment are preferred. If there is only one proposed amendment, then no statements should be added here.

Statement by yet another editor

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

• Recused on EEML. Shell 19:50, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
• Recused  Roger Davies 12:32, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose — Rlevse • Talk • 02:14, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

will think on this more. — Rlevse • Talk • 01:54, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

I am simply unconvinced. Would reconsider around Oct. — Rlevse • Talk • 02:55, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

• As with some of the other editors who were sanctioned in this decision, I would be agreeable to at least some curtailment or narrowing of the remedy—partly based on the feeling that the breadth of the remedy may have been wider than necessary to begin with, and in any event due to the lapse of time. Of course, if the remedy is lifted or narrowed, there would be a strong expectation that the problematic behaviors addressed in the original decision must not recur. Newyorkbrad (talk) 18:11, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
  • My view remains as stated. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:29, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
• Looking at this, I'd be willing to let this go, with the caveat that there's not much wiggle room here, and that a return to previous behaviors will mean it's near-immediate reinstatement. SirFozzie (talk) 20:41, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
• I would consider a lifting or narrowing of the restrictions now, or in the future between now and October but, will not be initiating that myself. I think more arbitrators need to comment first. Carcharoth (talk) 23:14, 9 August 2010 (UTC) Update: Will post a motion this week. Carcharoth (talk) 05:49, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
  • Noting that I've read Martintg's response and the postings at the user talk pages of Newyorkbrad and Rlevse, and my votes remain as posted below. I would ask that the editors that oppose this amendment think twice before trying to dispute editing that Martintg does following the passing of the alternative amendment. It will only serve to promote more ill-feeling. At some point, you need to learn how to work together, even if that seems impossible right now. And if you can't work together, learn to avoid each other. Carcharoth (talk) 18:56, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
• I think we had good success in the past with a more gradual return to the topic area, and I would support a more limited relaxation at this time. I am not, however, very favorable to removing it entirely at this time. — Coren  00:56, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Motion (Martintg topic ban)

Remedy 7 of Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Eastern European mailing list ("Martintg topic banned") is lifted.

There being 8 active Arbitrators, not counting 1 who is recused, the majority is 5.

Support

1. Carcharoth (talk) 23:57, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Oppose

1. In favor of alternative motion below. Newyorkbrad (talk) 01:25, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
2. Prefer the alternative. Risker (talk) 05:13, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
3. Per above. Kirill  19:23, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
4. Too much too fast. Support alternative below. — Coren  15:26, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
5. — Rlevse • Talk • 00:00, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
6. Mailer Diablo 12:02, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Abstain

Recuse

1. Shell 20:12, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Alternative motion

Remedy 7 of Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Eastern European mailing list "Martintg topic banned") is replaced with the following:

Martintg (talk · contribs) is topic banned from articles about national, cultural, or ethnic disputes within Eastern Europe, their associated talk pages, and any process discussion about these topics, until December 22, 2010 (one year from the closing of the original case).

Enacted - Dougweller (talk) 16:21, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Support

1. I think this modification would allow Martintg to edit all the articles he's mentioned in his request, without getting involved in the nationalist dispute articles that have previously been troublesome for these editors. The existing broader topic-ban expires in December, and I've left that timing unchanged. Newyorkbrad (talk) 01:25, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

   Some additional discussion is on my talkpage here. My apologies for the cross-posting, but I'd responded to both Martintg and Jehochman there before seeing that they'd posted here as well. Newyorkbrad (talk) 01:56, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

2. Good alternative. Carcharoth (talk) 01:54, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
3. Risker (talk) 05:13, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
4. Kirill  19:23, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
5. This, I can support. — Coren  15:25, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
6. SirFozzie (talk) 02:16, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
7. — Rlevse • Talk • 00:00, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
8. Mailer Diablo 12:02, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
9. KnightLago (talk) 00:18, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Oppose

Abstain

Recuse

1. Shell 20:12, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Request to amend prior case: EEML

Initiated by Skäpperöd (talk) at 09:07, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Case affected

Eastern European mailing list arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

1. Remedy 10: Radeksz (talk · contribs) is topic banned from articles about Eastern Europe, their associated talk pages, and any process discussion about same, widely construed, for one year. This topic ban is consecutive with any editing ban. Rescinded by motion on 21 June 2010.

List of users affected by or involved in this amendment

• Skäpperöd (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
• Radeksz (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request

Amendment 1

• Link to principle, finding of fact, or remedy to which this amendment is requested: Misplaced Pages:EEML#Radeksz topic banned
• Details of desired modification: Motion 3 is rescinded, the original topic ban is reinstated and/or extended.

Statement by Skäpperöd

In his request to have his topic ban lifted 1, Radeksz said that he planned to edit non-controversially, primarily in areas of Polish economics, Poland-related unreferenced BLPs and current events. He listed several articles he planned to work on (all but one are still redlinks), and said: "I don't anticipate that any of them should prove controversial - of course, if any disputes arise in the future, I will be careful to observe high standards of conduct". I advised against lifting the ban .

Some two months have passed. The evidence provided below confirms that Radeksz has not kept the promises made and instead returned to aggressive editing and battleground behaviour, including

• incivility
• move warring and disregard for BRD
• attacking his former targets, including disruption of DYK noms

...to the point where he got blocked.

Example 1 - Johann Dzierzon

On 25 April, Mamalala, a sockpuppet of topic-ban evading EEML-member Jacurek complained about the article's name . Discussion died down on the same day, but two months later, Radeksz re-activated the section , a discussion emerged that was joined by EEML-member Molobo aka Mymoloboaccount and resulted in an unsuccessful RM. During the RM,

• Radeksz attacked former EEML-target Varsovian and former EEML-target Dr. Dan , and put their comments into a "bickering section" (all 24 July). Dan responded calmly only to be again mocked by Radeksz until another editor intervened .
• I joined the discussion on 31 July . Radeksz called me "stubborn", my request to redact that was to no avail.
• When I moved a bunch of Communist era sources, added to the article by Molobo, to the talk page for discussion on 3 August (section link), Radeksz attacked me again: "shenanigans", "against-policy-removal of sourced material", "disruptive forum shopping by Skapperod, combined with insinuations that amount to personal attacks", "based on his IDONTLIKEIT", "bully" etc. The "against-policy removal of sourced material" was actually my strict adherence to WP:BRD - move controversial material to talk for discussion. The "disruptive forum shopping" allegation relates to this RS/N thread I started in May 2009.

Example 2 - Jewish Community of Danzig

Jewish Community of Danzig was created by former EEML target HerkusMonte on 3 August, and subsequently nominated for DYK . As shown by the diff, the article was ticked, then the tick was retracted due to a "move war", and the discussion was taken over by Radeksz and Molobo until Rlevse put an end to it.

• Radeksz moved the article (no e/s).
• HerkusMonte moved the article back (e/s: "rv undiscussed move")
• by then at the latest, Radeksz should have started a RM or otherwise seek consensus. Instead, he moved the article again (no e/s)
• after discussion, the article was moved back by another user

Example 3 - Johannes von Baysen

The article Johannes von Baysen was stable at this title since its creation four years ago.

• Radeksz moved it on 16 August
• I moved it back on 17 August at 9:00 , providing the rationale in the e/s
• by then at the latest, Radeksz should have started a RM or otherwise seek consensus. Instead, he again moved it to his preferred title on 9:40

Despite numerous pleas to move it back and start an RM, Radeksz insisted on his title. After five days of discussion, I moved the article back according to consensus .

Example 4 - Treaties of Bautzen and Merseburg

On 7 September, I created the article Treaties of Bautzen and Merseburg about the treaties of Merseburg (1002, 1013 and 1033) and Bautzen (1018 and 1031) , which I had finished and nominated for DYK in this version of 8 September. Note that every single sentence has a quality source. Radeksz tagged the article as violating NPOV and SYNTH and with a split-tag and rewrote the lead , before he turned the article into a dab page and copied the part about Bautzen (1029) and Merseburg (1033) to Treaty of Merseburg , and merged the part about Merseburg (1002 and 1013) and Bautzen (1018) with about 50 consecutive edits into a re-created unsourced stub at Peace of Bautzen which I previously redirected .

• I undid the removal of all of the content from Treaties of Bautzen and Merseburg , e/s: "rv bold split and move of the article, no discussion"
• By then at the latest, Radeksz should have started to seek consensus. Instead, he reverted within minutes , e/s: "there was no discussion when Peace of Bautzen was "deleted" either" - referring to the unsourced stub, tagged since 2009, that I redirected (not "deleted") .
• I restored the article , provided my rationale on talk and started an RfC on whether the article should be split.
• I then redirected Peace of Bautzen and Treaty of Merseburg to the mother article from which Radeksz had created them, linking the RfC in the edit summaries .
• Radeksz reverted in disregard of the RfC, and creating two content forks.

Regardless of the outcome of the RfC, Radeksz proved to be unable to follow BRD and instead uses the revert button. He also torpedoed the DYK nomination by enormeously enlarging the article's entry with his views , despite me having linked the RfC there prominently already. Just one week before, something similar happened to a previous DYK nom of mine, which was torpedoed by Molobo / (talk).

• Radeksz then created a third, unsourced content fork, where he again reverted me in disregard of BRD and called me “disruptive” for redirecting it pointing to the ongoing RfC

All this could have been avoided if Radeksz had just placed a split proposal on the talk page, instead of making an article that is up for DYK vanish overnight. When the split was undone and the RfC started on the merits of a split, he should have waited for its outcome instead of creating content forks by reverting. He further failed to attribute the material he moved to the content forks.

Other examples

• On a sysop's talk page, Radeksz made an unfounded block request against Varsovian, and was told that he himself would get blocked if he continued that way
• This outburst/PA in defense of EEML-member Biophys (warning )
• Radeksz tried to get EEML target Dr. Dan sanctioned, just 5 days after his topic ban was lifted
• Radeksz attacks a sysop for sanctioning his associate Loosmark
• With a revert , Radeksz joins a Czech/German naming dispute
• Radeksz attacks a Lithuanian editor as nationalist and during a naming dispute commets on the Lithuanian government as if it were an apartheid regime
• With an unsuccessful 3RR report and an attack against Dr. Dan , Radeksz joins a naming dispute where he, in contrast to Loosmark, was not involved before
• Radeksz on his user page attacks Varsovian with this "parody" on this 7 March comment of Varsovian .
• Radeksz joined a discussion unrelated to him on my talk page with a comment making me look like Gollum
• Radeksz also followed me to an SPI I opened
• Radeksz accused me of doing OR , and linked that last post as a “compliment” on my talk .
• On 10 August, Radeksz violated his interaction ban with EEML target Russavia with an unfounded AE request and was blocked accordingly

Response to Radeksz

Re "warning"

Radeksz's opening comment: "Skapperod, regularly, when he finds himself in a content dispute with others resorts to attempts to have those who disagree with him banned rather than working on resolving the dispute. He has been warned about using AE before to that effect (give me a sec to dig out the diff)."

The warning I got resulted from this AE report I filed against Radeksz on 11 July 2009. This report resulted from the Kołobrzeg dispute, which was revealed as a concerted attack on me by Radeksz and others during the EEML arbitration. Radeksz's disruption in that particlular case has even been presented in his EEML FoFs as an example for Radeksz's "abuse of dispute resolution processes ( )" .

But Sandstein could not know that when he closed that AE and issued me the warning. EEML member Radeksz on the other hand knew it all the time, naturally, as he participated in planning and exercising the attack on me. It is absolutely ridiculous that Radeksz is opening his defense by presenting that warning as if it really was an indication of an unfounded request. And even repeats that below!

Re "content dispute" and "block shopping"

No. The long list of diffs above, all from the last two months, are not about content disputes, but about the handling of those, and other behavioural evidence. And I will not go into re-opening any discussion here that belongs to article talk pages.

Throwing in the MAGIC_WORD "content dispute" may usually work to scare sysops away, but I hope that the arbs are above that and analyze the behavioural evidence I provided. The sentence "Skapperod, regularly, when he finds himself in a content dispute with others resorts to attempts to have those who disagree with him banned" and the repeated "block shopping" allegation are the core of Radeksz's defense.

It is of course unsubstantiated by evidence, as it is just not true.

Re allegations of "ownership" and actions against consensus

Radeksz says below that these two edits of mine violate WP:OWN. In fact, per WP:Copying within Misplaced Pages, one is required to do so. The dummy edits were a consequence of Radeksz's unattributed copy/paste-split and the reverts he made after the split was undone and the RfC at the original article started , violating WP:BRD and WP:Copying within Misplaced Pages#Content forking: "The acceptable solution to disagreement on the development of an article is to seek consensus through dispute resolution." This is exactly what I have done when I started the RfC. Radeksz could not possibly have missed the ongoing RfC since it was linked in the edit summaries of the edits he reverted , but he nevertheless chose reverting over DR.

Radeksz also cherry-picked quotes to suggests that I had acted against consensus. E.g. for the Baysen dispute, he picked only part of a quote of a user who provided a 3O, the whole 3O thread is here and others commented, too. Another example is the ongoing Bautzen and Merseburg RfC, where he provided only one user's oppinion here. Completely irrelevant, the diffs deal with Radeksz's disruption that already happened, no matter how the RfC goes.

Re - MalikShabazz/mediation

I don't know how neutral MalikShabazz, who is introduced as "uninvolved" by Radeksz, is with respect to Radeksz and me, given their EEML-related run-in with me and their extensive clerking of Piotrus' topic-ban-inhibited tasks at the PLNB.

A mediation will not address Radeksz's immediate return to battleground behaviour on multiple articles and his attacks against multiple users, and Radeksz's attempt to jump that train is nothing but distraction. He wants to bury this as a content dispute, see above.

Re "Last Chances Saloon"

Radeksz had his first 'last' chance when a limited topic ban was applied to him after the EEML case instead of a harsh sanction. He had another last chance when the topic ban was lifted, first in part, then altogether. He had another last chance when he was only sanctioned with a short-time block after returning to disruptive behavior afterwards. Radeksz is not a young boy, he knows what he is doing and should finally face consequences instead of getting another last chance.

That Radeksz and Jacurek, during this request, are frivolous enough to attack me with that "Skäpperöd-received-a-warning-for unfounded-requests"-story illustrates that point. I outlined above (see Re "warning") how this "warning" was the result of a coordinated EEML attack against me, involving Radeksz, which had been revealed during the EEML case. The admin who judged my request to be "unfounded" could not know about the attack by the time he issued me the warning, but Radeksz and Jacurek naturally knew and know very well, and Arbcom does now know, too, from the EEML archive's evidence. I am sick and tired of having to put up with that kind of malice.

Statement by Radeksz

Short version

Skapperod, regularly, when he finds himself in a content dispute with others resorts to attempts to have those who disagree with him banned rather than working on resolving the dispute. He has been warned about using AE before to that effect (). This is just another instance of this mentality of trying to get people blocked by slandering them rather than working on dispute resolution and achieving consensus.

The basis for this request is the disagreement over at Treaties_of_Bautzen_and_Merseburg. There was an article on Peace of Bautzen which Skapperod "deleted" by making it into a redirect. He then created the "Treaties of Bautzen and Merseburg" article which violates WP:SYNTH. After some discussion he made a RfC request, . So far so good and that was commendable. Unfortunately for him, the response by an outside uninvolved editor to his RfC has been that indeed, the article violated SYNTH and should be split into two . At that point Skapperod began badgering the outside commentator which provoked an irked response by him .

Additionally, I would very much like for Skapperod to explain why he is redirecting an article ABOUT a conflict to an article about the treaty which ENDED the conflict . It's as if someone redirected the article on World War I to the article on Treaty of Versailles. This kind of edit goes beyond any kind of BRD notion of being "bold" to simply being a vindictive "I'm gonna get you" kind of edit; it just doesn't make sense otherwise.

So the RfC is not going as he had hoped, he is determined to ignore outside opinion and the result is that he is trying to get me banned to get his way. To do this he distorts and misrepresents my actions.

I have not done anything against Misplaced Pages policy and nothing that Skapperod writes above shows that. In fact, if I had broken Misplaced Pages policy, then why is this request not at Arbitration Enforcement? The obvious answer is that you can get in serious trouble (including blocks) for filing spurious reports and Skapperod knows this (as he's almost been blocked for this in the past). But you can't get blocked for presenting spurious cases to the Arb Com (at least I don't think so). So this is the "safer" venue for block-shopping.

I have in fact worked on uncontroversial material on Poland related current events (), sourced Poland related unreferenced BLPs (), Bund related topics (), economics (, ) and fielding requests at WikiProject Poland ). This too would be uncontroversial if Skapperod didn't make controversy where none should exist, apparently out of some kind of a belief that any kind of criticism of his actions is somehow against Misplaced Pages policy.

Long version addressing individual attacks

Example 1 - Johann Dzierzon

I made a comment at the article after which an outside, uninvolved editor opened a Request Move proposal because there were some questions of misuse of Google books searches in the preceding discussion. Nota bene, the previous RM had only two support votes, both by users who have since been topic banned from Eastern European topics. There was bickering at the RM, typical of this topic area and in fact the designation of such behavior as "bickering" is not mine but rather User:Sandstein's. It's quite appropriate too. Anyway, the RM was closed by Future Perfect at Sunrise with the statement ""no consensus, hence no move". There are some reasonable arguments on both sides" which at very least indicates that requesting an RM was not an unreasonable thing to do. So... what kind of policy was exactly broken here?

As an aside I have no idea who User:Mamalala is, and I've never seen a SPI on the user and I don't think there ever was one.

Hence this is an example where Skapperod is trying to get somebody who simply disagrees with him in regard to content banned.

Example 2 - Jewish Community of Danzig

The article very clearly violated the Gdansk/Danzig vote, but nm that. In this example by Skapperod he is actually being blatantly dishonest. He characterizes my actions as follows: Radeksz moved the article (no e/s). - meaning that I did not use an edit summary and Radeksz moved the article again (no e/s) - again trying to make me look bad because I did not use an edit summary.

Basically Skapperod is trying to portray my actions here as if I moved the article without any kind of discussion. This is completely false. In the first instance, I actually DID use an edit summary as can be clearly seen here (hence this part of his statement is straight up false). And then I explained the edit on the talk page , as a quick click on the talk of the article clearly shows (hence this is an attempt at a sneaky misrepresentation).

The only comment by an uninvolved user, Malik Shabazz stated: It seems to me the name should be Jewish community of Gdańsk because the article covers a period that spans the Danzig period. Similar to History of Gdańsk. . So the only outside person participating in the discussion actually agreed with me.

The article still violates the Gdansk/Danzig vote. It still should be moved back to Jewish Community of Gdansk, but frankly, faced with this kind of tendentious nationalist editing and battleground mentality I basically said "screw it", let them have it, and left it where it was. I did nothing wrong here and I resent Skapperod's slander.

Example 3 - Johannes von Baysen

The article was under "Johannes von Baysen", originally created by a user (Matthead) now banned from Eastern European topics. There are ZERO English language sources which use that name (there actually is one, but it's to a self-published novel of "alternate history"). There are a number of English language sources which use "Jan Bazynski" . So I moved it to the title that is actually used by English language sources. This prompted belligerent bullying demands that I move the article back by Skapperod, and attempts by him to try to portray German language sources as being "English" .

There was some discussion and it was brought up that in fact "Hans" is sometimes used in English language sources (essentially, there are two of these). I indicated my willingness to consider it. But rather than discussing the matter further, Skapperod continued with his ultimatums. In the meantime Herkus asked for a third opinion , which was commendable. The third opinion arrived and it said:

You'll notice that I have not dismissed your (i.e. mine; the recommendation was basically for more discussion - Radeksz) edit out-of-hand. Are your sources more indicative of the name you changed the article to? Also, are they reliable sources? If the answer to both is yes, then in my opinion it is up to the opposing debaters (i.e. Skapperod) to offer evidence in support of their own position. If there is no such evidence, a simple personal disagreement is not sufficient grounds to reverse the change. (i.e. to move back the article to the name not used in sources)

and

If there is still ambiguity, you should ask for more input from more editors (through perhaps, WP:RFC), but I do encourage you to reach a compromise - I notice you have already started discussing this.

I want to request that Skapperod provide a diff of the statement from the 3O outside uninvolved commentator where s/he says something like "what Radeksz was wrong" or "that was against policy" or even just "the move should be reverted" - he can't because there was nothing of the kind. So basically, the 3O indicated that there was nothing wrong with the original move but that editors should work to achieve consensus. There WAS in fact ongoing discussion at the article, between myself, Herkus and Henrig (who I may disagree with, but whom I consider to be good faithed editors) and compromise solutions were floated (for example to use the hyphenated form Baysen-Bazynski that apparently the guy's descendants now use). Skapperod CHOSE not to participate in that discussion but just kept making bullying demands for a self-revert. He then moved the article back without any kind of discussion on his part.

Please note that I've asked Skapperod why he moved the article back to the one particular name which is used by ZERO sources but he has refused to reply . He has also refused to provide any kind of quotation from non-English language sources which he is using in the article .

This is another example where I just gave up hope on any kind of reasonable discussion and left the article alone, particularly since Skapperod seemed intent on completely ignoring the Third Opinion that had been provided and even refused to participate in the discussion. So much for his adherence to DR. Again, I did not in any way break any Misplaced Pages policies, in letter or in spirit and there is simply no basis for a complaint here except bad faith.

Example 4 - Treaties of Bautzen and Merseburg

This is basically the heart of the matter and the real reason for Skapperod's block-shopping. There used to be an article on Peace of Bautzen. Skapperod "deleted" it by making it into a redirect. He then created a POV SYNTH article on Treaties of Bautzen and Merseburg. The SYNTHed article covers two different topics but Skapperod combined them into two, basically for nationalistic reasons (to end a series of treaties with one that made Germany look GREAT!). No reliable sources, by German historians included (or even, especially by German historians, who are generally a lot less radical than some Misplaced Pages users), do this.

I created separate articles for the two different topics and initiated discussion on talk page. Discussion ensued. I asked for outside help at WikiProject Military History. Skapperod asked for an RfC. That in itself was commendable. What was NOT commendable however, was completely ignoring the comments that were provided as a result of this request by uninvolved User:Variable and then badgering him on his talk page about his opinion , which provoked a response from him .

In the meantime I also created an article on the military conflict that one of these treaties ended. Skapperod tried to "delete" this article as well through the use of redirects (the article was a unsourced stub because it was newly created work in progress, as I clearly indicated here. This prompted an inquiry by myself at WP:Deletion policy where discussion is still ongoing.

So basically, Skapperod asked for an RfC. The comments provided by uninvolved editor disagreed with his synthesis and agreed with my proposal to split the article into two. So the RfC is not going the way Skapperod would like, so he is determined to ignore it (after himself requesting the comment!) and the only way he can do that is to block shop a ban for me.

This is a textbook example of how NOT to behave on Misplaced Pages. It is a textbook example of how Misplaced Pages dispute resolution processes are abused and gamed (Ask for RfC. If it agrees with you great! If it disagrees with you ignore it and get the person you disagree with banned!) and it is a clear cut evidence for Skapperod's own battleground mentality.

Other examples - really quickly

• On Talk:Zemuzil, Duke of Pomerania, Radeksz repeatedly referred to my talk page posts as OR - they were OR. Skapperod seems to be under the impression that any kind of criticism of his actions is against Misplaced Pages policies. As far as I'm aware no such Misplaced Pages policy exists yet.

• He then linked that post as a “compliment” on my talk. - Here's the whole discussion . Yes, I made the mistake of trying to thank Skapperod and say something nice to him. He quickly began making personal attacks against me. Ok. Now WHO has the battleground mentality here?

• This outburst/PA in defense of EEML-member (warning ) - yeah I admit it, I get upset when I see somebody bully and badger others. I think I have pretty thick skin when it comes to personal attacks directed at myself, and I routinely ignore them. But I DO get upset when I see somebody try to publicly humiliate another person. I hate bullies, have zero tolerance for them, and very strongly believe they have no place on Misplaced Pages. When I see it happen, yeah, ok, some of the usual civility gets put aside. Note that this supposed "warning" says that the other user's comments were "unjustifiable"

• Radeksz tried to get EEML target Dr. Dan sanctioned, just 5 days after his topic ban was lifted - Dr. Dan an EEML target? Don't be ridiculous. The only way he was a "target" was that people mentioned was that it was best to "just ignore him". Anyway, Sandstein's comment here was the reference may well have been intentional, but it's too indirect to be sanctionable in my opinion

• Radeksz attacks a sysop for sanctioning his associate Loosmark - Loosmark is not my "associate" (whatever that is), though he is an occasional chess partner on Wiki. Anyway - that's a wrong diff I think.

• Radeksz attacks a Lithuanian editor as nationalist - this is a self-revert I made after once again giving up in the face of tendentious editing. Apparently it was appreciated by the user involved (Lokyz) . I responded back in similar friendly vein and it actually began to look like real progress on resolving long standing disputes could be made . Lokyz appears not to have the same problem as Skapperod with receiving compliments and thanks and hopefully this dialogue will continue..... but I forgot, what exactly is Skapperod alleging I did wrong here? Self-revert? Initiate friendly conversation?

• With an unsuccessful 3RR report - false, the report was successful. The page was protected which prevented edit warring (which I was not involved in) from continuing. Actually, this phrasing by Skapperod is quite revealing of the mindset here. For him, a report is not a "success" unless it results in someone getting blocked or banned. For myself, I'm quite happy if disputes are resolved and edit warring ceases.

• Radeksz joined a discussion unrelated to him on my talk page with a comment making me look like Gollum - I'll leave that one without comment, except to say that Skapperod appears to be completely misinterpreting (intentionally or not) my remark.

• Radeksz also followed me to an SPI I opened - nope, I saw the SPI after I noticed that Skapperod has managed to harass a productive editor into leaving Misplaced Pages . This editor had just made several changes to a number of articles on my watchlist. Unfortunately, Skapperod is employing the exact same tactics here. The scary thing is, these tactics may be working.

As to my AE block - apparently, in reporting an interaction ban violation, I made the mistake of taking this statement by Shell Kinney seriously; Sandstein saw it differently. Shrug.

Battleground language by Skapperod

Battleground language is used by Skapperod through out this request. It is designed to misrepresent my actions and it is indicative of how he approaches disagreements on article talk pages.

Here are a few examples: "Radeksz attacked"

"Radeksz attacked me again"

"Radeksz attacks a sysop"

"Radeksz attacks a Lithuanian editor"

"Radeksz on his user page attacks Varsovian"

"Radeksz accused me"

I have not "attacked" anyone. This is Skapperod's typical tactic of bullying his opponents, of trying to make them look bad when in fact they have done nothing wrong and it illustrative of the battleground mentality that he has.

Making constructive criticisms of other people's actions - like pointing out that an editor is in fact doing OR - or disagreeing with administrative action (we're still allowed to do that on Misplaced Pages, right?) or - most ironically of all - engaging in discussion aimed at resolving long standing disputes (as was the case with the "Lithuanian editor") is not "attacking" anyone.

Skapperod is leaving out the word "personal" from before the word "attack" in the above but the insinuation is clear. This kind of behavior (and this report in general, really) is a clear violation of WP:CIVIL which states:

"This policy is not a weapon to use against other contributors. To insist that an editor be sanctioned for an isolated, minor offense, or to treat constructive criticism as an attack, is itself potentially disruptive, and may result in warnings or even blocks if repeated." .

I have asked Skapperod in the past to avoid using such inflammatory battleground language (gimme a minute to find other examples of such unnecessary rhetoric) but he removed it without responding with an edit summary in which he called me a "nationalist" (an accusation which I very much strongly object to and which is about as far from my personal philosophy as can be. If anything accusing me of being a "rootless cosmopolitan" would be more apt).

Problems with asserting "ownership" of articles by Skapperod

Misplaced Pages policy (NOT guideline, NOT an essay) on WP:Ownership: All Misplaced Pages content is edited collaboratively. Misplaced Pages contributors are editors, not authors, and no one, no matter how skilled, has the right to act as if they are the owner of a particular article. (my emphasis)

These two "dummy edits" (i.e. they did not change anything in the article itself) on Peace of Bautzen and Treaty of Merseburg are about as clear indication as can be had that Skapperod does not accept this policy and considers himself to be both author and owner of the articles on the subject matter. His edit summary states: dummy edit: This article is largely a copy of sections from Treaties of Bautzen and Merseburg id 383623077, authored by User:Skäpperöd, copied here by User:Radeksz

As an aside, the edit summary is misleading. I didn't just copy the articles but also did extensive clean up and expended the articles , , and added additional sources.

This is another illustration of the basic problem here; Skapperod feels he "owns" articles on these topics and other editors are not allowed to disagree with him (even if supported by third opinions and comments from RfCs).

Add

Skapperod states: The dummy edits were a consequence of Radeksz's unattributed copy/paste-split and the reverts he made after the split was undone and the RfC at the original article started , violating WP:BRD and WP:Copying within Misplaced Pages#Content forking: "The acceptable solution to disagreement on the development of an article is to seek consensus through dispute resolution." This is exactly what I have done when I started the RfC. Radeksz could not possibly have missed the ongoing RfC since it was linked in the edit summaries of the edits he reverted , but he nevertheless chose reverting over DR.

There was nothing which prevented Skapperod from first opening an RfC rather then first reverting my split of the SYNTHed article. In fact, the proper thing to have done would've been starting discussion on the original Peace of Bautzen article which he "deleted" by turning it into a redirect. RfC should not serve as a cover for "protecting" the one's preferred version of an article - i.e. choosing reverting and trying to abuse DR to cover one's tracks.

Yes, Skapperod started the RfC - as I said before, that in itself was commendable. The problem is that he ignored (and is still ignoring) results of RfCs and 3O when these are provided. He's creating a typical "heads I win, tails you loose" situation and exploiting the DR process for his own ends.

Skapperod states: Radeksz also cherry-picked quotes to suggests that I had acted against consensus. E.g. for the Baysen dispute, he picked only part of a quote of a user who provided a 3O, the whole 3O thread is here and others commented, too

I didn't cherry pick anything, I provided the portion of the quote which directly addressed Skapperod's false allegation that I did something wrong here. Others commented, too - sure, but ῤerspeκὖlὖm was the only uninvolved, outside user.

Skapperod states: Another example is the ongoing Bautzen and Merseburg RfC, where he provided only one user's oppinion here. - again, I provided the opinion of the only uninvolved, outside user who arrived as a result of the RfC.

Skapperod states: the diffs deal with Radeksz's disruption that already happened - this is more slander since no disruption has happened, no evidence to that effect has been provided and such a conclusion has not been reached. This is typical Skapperod - pretending that something has already found to be true when in fact nothing of the sort has happened and using strong language to that effect to actually bring about the effect. It's simply false and the tactic is a plain dishonest rhetorical trick.

Skapperod states: no matter how the RfC goes. - the RfC was requested. An uninvolved editor provided an opinion. Skapperod immediately began arguing with the uninvolved outside editor. The uninvolved editor replied again (apparently annoyed at Skapperod, but that's just my reading of the situation). The RfC is pretty much done. What Skapperod is doing here is pretending that the requested for comment hasn't arrived because it didn't agree with him, and is trying to keep the RfC open for "as long as it takes" for someone who agrees with him to show up. This is clearly an attempt at gaming DR and RfC processes. And somehow he has the chutzpah to allege that I did something wrong!

Skapperod states, in regard to my allegation of his block-shopping as a means of "solving" his content disputes: It is of course unsubstantiated by evidence, as it is just not true. - no, I've already substantiated it above. I've pointed to user Schwyz who left Misplaced Pages because of harassment from Skapperod. And I've shown the strong warning Skapperod received from Sandstein previously for this kind of behavior. This is also the second (third, if you count the little smear campaign he launched at me during my appeal) time he has done this to me. There are also others, and, I will provide additional evidence shortly.radek (talk) 19:24, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Bottom line

Basically what we have here is a series of content disputes. And Skapperod, rather than working to resolve content disputes, tries to "solve" them by having those he disagrees with banned. If that's how Misplaced Pages dispute resolution works... why stick around anyway?

As an aside, I've mostly worked on non controversial material since July, have had several articles DYKed (, , , , , , , , , , , ), and have tried to avoid controversy. But with editors like Skapperod around - controversy is created, even where there should be none.radek (talk) 11:37, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Response to Skapperod 2

The AE case didn't have anything to do with some "concerned attack". It had to do with the fact that I said Skapperod was engaging in disruptive forum shopping (he was - he was asking for a discussion on the same topic for the fourth time, despite three previous occasions of consensus by uninvolved editors going against him ). Since Skapperod appears to believe that any kind of criticism of his actions is against Misplaced Pages policy he filed a spurious AE report against me. Here's what Sandstein had to say on the occasion :

This looks like a misuse of WP:AE in order to win the upper hand in a content dispute. The edits cited in the request are not objectionable; rather, they reflect routine disagreements about content. In particular, it is not disruptive to state one's opinion that "Removing a large chunk of text without discussing it first is generally seen as "disruptive"". Unless other administrators disagree, I will close this thread with a warning to Skäpperöd that AE is not a substitute for, or part of, proper dispute resolution, and that he may face sanctions if he files more unfounded enforcement requests.

This is exactly what's going on here as well

None of my edits Skapperod links to are objectionable. They are all routine disagreement about content. It is not disruptive to state one's opinion that Skapperod is engaging in OR, or making SYNTH, or to ask him for sources, or even to call him "stubborn". Hence this whole request by Skapperod is a misuse of Misplaced Pages dispute resolution process, in order to win the upper hand in a content dispute.

Skapperod, Arbitration Enforcement is over here. If you really had evidence that any of those edits you link to were objectionable or violated Misplaced Pages guidelines, why don't you/didn't you, file a proper AE Request for them? Of course, if you don't have any evidence and such reports are judged to be spurious, you risk getting blocked yourself. So put your money where your mouth is, so to speak.radek (talk) 12:35, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Skapperod's mischaracterization of BRD

Skapperod has a very peculiar understanding of the Bold, Revert, Discuss policy. If he makes a controversial edit or reverts you, that's being "bold". If someone else makes an edit Skapperod disagrees with or reverts him that's... well, gosh darn it! That's just bad!

Despite Skapperod's notion this essay (neither policy nor guideline) does not say that "Skapperod is allowed to revert others but others may not revert or even criticize Skapperod". Rather what the essay says is:

• BRD is not a justification for imposing one's own view, or tendentious editing without consensus. - in particular it is not a justification for ignoring third opinions and RfC comments after these have been provided.
• BRD is not a process that you can require other editors to follow. - in particular, it is not a process which makes it ok for one editor to revert but not for others to respond to such reverts.
• BRD is not a valid excuse for reverting good-faith efforts to improve a page simply because you don't like the changes. - this goes to the heart of the matter. BRD is no justification for reverting editors simply because you don't like them. It is even less of a justification for trying to get them blocked.
• Don't invoke BRD as your reason for reverting someone else's work...provide a reason that is based on policies, guidelines, or common sense' - Skapperod repeatedly cites BRD as an excuse for reverting others

And that's just on this one article.

Response to Malik and mediation

Despite the fact that I have some reservations about mediation, particularly since previous forms of dispute resolution have not worked due to Skapperod's ignoring of outside opinion, I've read up on the process and I think that it might work here.

As a result I've filed a motion for mediation here: .

Further discussion

Statement by Malik Shabazz

I agree with Radeksz that this is at bottom a series of content disputes, and I don't see any behavior that warrants a restoration of his topic ban.

I would like to recommend, however, that he and Skäpperöd consider mediation to resolve some of the difficulties they are having working together. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 18:04, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Petri Krohn

It is interesting that my name is brought up here, but not at all surprising considering the fascination EEML participants have with my name.

Update: Radeksz removed the following text from his statement: "In the ensuing discussion Petri Krohn all of sudden became involved, in a situation which the Arb Com probably already knows more about than I want to go into here. While Petri has behaved himself somewhat better as of late, he is/was clearly not an uninvolved user here."

Radeksz is making accusations against me trough innuendo. The arbitrators have seen the EEML evidence. If they have, they should be fully aware that a large part of the activity of the EE mailing list was targeted at my user account and someone in real life they thought was me.

As to the mystical meaning of whatever “Arb Com probably already knows more about” I can only guess. I would not be surprised, if some kind of secret email campaign against me was going on at this very moment conducted by former EEML members, as I have already seen some alarming signs of hanky-panky. All this has hardly anything to do with my edits on Misplaced Pages, but are more related to real world politics.

Jewish Community of Danzig

In this case of Jewish Community of Danzig Radeksz's actions were most distractive, as they almost prevented a high-quality article from appearing in the DYK section.

I was first alerted to a related issue when an interwiki bot made this strange edit to an article on the Finnish Misplaced Pages which I had created two years ago. Entering the English language Misplaced Pages I discovered a major controversy surrounding the undiscussed moves of articles on historical provinces. I then commented on the issue here, here, here, here, here, and even here.

In preparing my argument I went looking for the most irrational move, I checked this log of reverted page moves and came across the "Jewish Community of Gdańsk". I was surprised to see that the move was unrelated to the provinces dispute and was in fact done by Radecsz. Knowing how willingly EEML participants make accusations against me, I entered the talk page referring to the dispute that had brought me there. I was responded to by hostile accusations of stalking.

A week later I reverted a controversial naming change in Prince-Bishop citing the Gdańsk (Danzig) vote in my edit summary. I had first edited the article in February 2006 while Radeksz has never edited it before. Ten minutes later he reverts my edits, sparking this long discussion on the article talk page. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 23:05, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Note from Jacurek

Mamalala was not my sockpuppet. Skäpperöd, please remove this slander from your evidence page.--Jacurek (talk) 01:15, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

- Skäpperöd (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is also known for misuse of other boards in order to win the upper hand in content disputes. In addition to the already mentioned warning he received for filing unfounded request here he was also put on notice here after filing different unfounded request to win the upper hand in other content dispute Here is the comment from the reviewing administrator .

I could provide many other examples of sanction able behavior of user Skäpperöd. Here is one from my latest interaction with him:

- After unfounded revert here and my request Skäpperöd ignoring all WP:CIVILITY rules responds with this derision and name calling and advises me to go away and enjoy the summer--Jacurek (talk) 23:43, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Varsovian

While I can/will not comment on Raseksz's article edits or this request, it is interesting that despite writing more than three and a half thousand words, he can't come up with a single word to defend his behaviour towards me. In fact the only mention he makes of me is that he "opened a RM for the article, because the previous RM had only two support votes, both by users who have since been topic banned" Very interesting that he uses a future topic ban as justification for opening an RM. Also interesting that Radeksz repeatedly uses a precise legal term (slander) and Jacurek then uses the precise same term in his 13 word note. What are the chances of that happening?! Varsovian (talk) 14:34, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Tropical wind

This request is hardly surprising. It was also my intention to file something after my encounter with Mr Radeksz at Talk:Johann Dzierzon. Daring to vote on the other side, of a user with the enunciation and behavior "raid X", the next moment I immediately found myself on the receiving end of an attack Looking at Mr Skäpperöd's presentation, I now see that this was not an isolated incident, but part of a pattern, where Radeksz always tries to intimidate anyone who dares to oppose his POV. It is my view that Radeksz is here only to promote his national agenda, which implies promoting the "Polishness" of every possible famous person who possesses a WP article.

If I understand correctly the content of the debate linked to, Radeksz' previous sanction was removed because he said he just wanted to edit all Economics article freely and only to make gnomish edits and avoid all controversy; yet, the presentation by Skäpperöd proves that quite the opposite happened and Radeksz never took his word seriously and immediately exploited the trust and good will to return to his previous state.

Statement by Dr. Dan

I wish to clarify a few thing here. Regarding the question whether or not Skäpperöd is correct that I was indeed a target of the EEML versus Radeksz's statement that I was not..."Dr. Dan an EEML target? Don't be ridiculous. The only way he was a "target" was that people mentioned was that it was best to "just ignore him". Here are a few emails, concerning the subject, for those who are authorized have the capability to read them (members of ArbCom?). They should peruse them in order to determine who is correct regarding that question.

20090816-2332 20090407-0501 20090614-1938 20090715-0839 20090816-1851 20090819-2328 20090819-2341 20090821-0039 20090908-1819 20090819-2300 20090825-2011

Frankly, I wish Radeksz took his own advice and ignored me, something he has not been able to do since his ban was rescinded. It all boils down to this, the evidence presented by Skäpperöd is not about content disputes, it is about Radeksz's behavior since his ban was lifted. At this point recapitulating that evidence here would be a waste of time. It has been succinctly presented already. Those familiar with his case know that Radeksz was involved in a group that seriously undermined the spirit of the Misplaced Pages project. As a consequence, he and fellow EEML members were sanctioned (and not with a slap on the wrist). In a magnanimous gesture of good will his ban was lifted, primarily due to promises that he would change his ways, and others believing he would do so. He has stated that he is "reformed". The question is simply whether or not his recent behavior has shown that to be true. Dr. Dan (talk) 17:20, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Vecrumba

I regret needing to violate my self-imposed Wiki-break for this week. No one is "authorized" to read EEML correspondence. That my personal Emails and those of others are readily available for such reading is a different matter. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 18:42, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Martintg

I wasn't going to comment but I'm not sure how proper it is for Dr. Dan to continue to refer to private correspondence making claims that others may not be in a position to verify, but my recollection was that the consensus formed on the EEML back in 2009 was that Dr. Dan was a troll and the best thing to do was to ignore him (see 20090819-2328).

In fact, Dr. Dan's claims that he was "targeted" is at odds with his own acknowledgement during the EEML case: "I think one of the major tactics was to "ignore" Dr. Dan", unless of course he is claiming he was "targeted" to be ignored.

Loosemark's riposte: "Have they really planned to "ignore" Dr.Dan? Man that's a really diabolical plan, I hope the ArbCom advises them to stop ignoring you at once!" was subsequently the source of much mirth amongst the EEML members.

In my view:

1. WP:EEML was primarily about improper co-ordination, there doesn't appear to be any suggestion of that re-occurring in this amendment request, which seems to be more of a description of a series of content disputes.
2. There are discretionary sanctions available in WP:DIGWUREN if behaviour is an issue and WP:AE is the appropriate venue to address that.

--Martin (talk) 16:15, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Statement by M.K.

I am a bit confused. Particular contributor, user:Radeksz during arbitration showed that he have no desire to abandon his counter-productive behavior (bets example - his accidentally publicized an off-wiki communications at end of arbitration), however it was rather ignored. Then Radeksz topic ban was in full force, he systematically breach it. Again Committee reached out to him and lifted the topic ban. Now, we have more then enough examples, there Radeksz's newest "contributions" exceeded granted trust. But now community witnessing only that Arbiters are rather tired of this situation. But let me ask, what should the good faith editors, who working in the same area, have to do, then they are again provoked, harassed in old style of his? Ignoring such behavior only encourage offender as we know from the past. M.K. (talk) 07:53, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Statement by yet another editor

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

• After thinking about this whole area for a while. I remain convinced that there are disputes in this area that will not be solved (and by solved, I mean preventing future acrimonious disputes from arising), without drastic action. MOST drastic action. Folks, let me make it clear here. There are some users in this area, who are in their own personal Last Chance Saloon. We've tried alternate sanctions. We've tried normalization. Think about where that leaves us. SirFozzie (talk) 20:57, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

• I echo SirFozzie. There is a growing tiredness within the Arbitration Committee for all things EEML related. If this area does not start to improve quickly I foresee another case (whether raised sua sponte or otherwise) with remedies that will not make anyone happy. Please be civil and remember we are here to build an encyclopedia. KnightLago (talk) 01:25, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

• Everyone should read and consider SirFozzie's and KnightLago's comments before perpetuating any unnecessary disputes or engaging in unseemly conduct in this topic-area. Newyorkbrad (talk) 09:38, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
• Recused. But seriously folks, take these comments to heart - you're painting yourselves into corners. Shell 19:47, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
• Comment Like Fozzie and some other arbs, why is it the East Europe editors seem completely incapable of getting along with one another. I'm beginning to think we should open another case and use wiki-tactical nuke level measures. — Rlevse • Talk • 15:50, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Request for clarification: WP:EEML (2)

Initiated by Martin (talk) at 20:41, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

• Martintg (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
• The Four Deuces (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Statement by Martintg

Further Response to TFD

I'm not sure what NATO has to do with anything, unless TFD is now claiming any NATO topic falls under the topic ban too. From what I have observed of communist related topics, past content disputes were not along national/ethnic lines but rather along political left-wing/right-wing lines independent of nationality or ethnicity. I assume TFD isn't East European, I'm not East European either, the majority of the participants in the article aren't. But let's invoke the EE card anyway if it helps. There exists in Misplaced Pages editors who apparently hold strong left-wing viewpoints and appear to be every bit as tendentious in their approach as any other.

I am gobsmacked by TFD's claim that the text on p218 "does not mention terrorism" here is what is said:

"Marxist socialism was pragmatic and revolutionary. It was action oriented and was adopted by many revolutionary leaders and movements throughout the 20th century. For example, Vladimie Ilich Lenin in Russia, Moao Zedong in China, Ho Chi Minh in Vietnam, and Fidel Castro in Cuba all based their revolutionary doctrines on Marx's precepts. Terrorism, both state and dissident, was used during these revolutions and during the consolidations of power after victory".

Maybe I am hallucinating, because I am sure that passage just read "Terrorism, both state and dissident, was used during these revolutions and during the consolidations of power after victory". The resulting text I wrote for the lede which TFD objects too is: "Communist terrorism, state and dissident, is terrorism committed by various movements that claim adherence to the doctrines of Karl Marx, both during a revolutionary struggle and during the consolidation of power after victory". Shrug.

But TFD still maintains the text "does not mention terrorism" today, even after it was pointed out to him on the talk page weeks ago. What can I say with this level of "yes it did/no it didn't" debate in the article. I give up TFD, you win. I don't want to pursue this any further, it just really isn't worth wasting my time and the Committee's time over this. I'm going to pursue more productive endeavours. I'm striking my statement and withdrawing my request for clarification. --Martin (talk) 18:13, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Igny

I think if the narrowed topic ban included political and ideological disputes we would not have this discussion. However, I personally do not mind if Martin participates in debates there as long as he does not make unilateral changes in the article without gaining unanimous support on the talk page first and as long as his arguments do not fuel edit wars in articles on controversial topics. (Igny (talk) 22:11, 16 October 2010 (UTC))

Statement by Mark Nutley

I do not see what communist terrorism has to do with eastern europe? The majority of communist terrorist groups were western european in origin, there are none that i know of from eastern europe in fact. (unless turkey counts as such?)mark (talk) 07:54, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Statement by The Four Deuces

Martintg wrote on the talk page, "The OED further defines "terrorism" as "a policy intended to strike with terror those against whom it is adopted", i.e. originally a policy of government, but later including a policy of non-government actors. --Martin (talk) 06:27, 28 September 2010 (UTC)" He argues to include the Soviet government which was at the center of national disputes since Ukrainians, Balts and other national groups claimed that they had become "captive nations". There is also a question whether the "fighting Communist organizations" of Western Europe were financed or controlled by the Soviet Union. See for example Claire Sterling. I do not see Martintg taking any interest in other articles about ideology or terrorism, and assume his interest in this article and in Mass killings under Communist regimes stems from the fact that they include the Soviet Union. TFD (talk) 12:39, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Response to Martintg

While the original basis of national disputes in Eastern Europe lies in ethnic rather than ideological conflict, ideological conflict became part of the dispute. Eastern Europeans allied with Communists against the tsar, Germany against the Soviets and now NATO against Russia. One cannot separate out the ideological and national disputes. As for our disputes on the article, you provided a definition that was not supported by the source. Here is a link to p. 218 of the book Understanding Terrorism which does not mention terrorism, let alone "communist terrorism". Another editor has set up a second discussion thread about the newbie who has accused other editors (not me btw) of being "apologists for Communist terrorism". I and other editors have pointed out to him that his lengthy talk page postings using primary sources, original research and personal attacks are unhelpful, but he has not taken any of this advice. TFD (talk) 14:52, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Statement by other user

Clerk notes

Arbitrator views and discussion

• Comment Why is there an endless parade of arbcases, clarifications, and amendments relating to the EE topics before arbcom? Right at this moment, there are 6 clarifications/amendments at RFAR. To quote Rodney King, "...Can we get along? Can we stop making it, making it horrible..."? Why is it the same editors from the EE topic keep appearing before arbcom? Can they not learn to get along with one another? — Rlevse • Talk • 19:39, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Request for clarification: EEML

Initiated by _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} at 00:29, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

• Piotrus (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)

Statement by Piotrus

I am seeking a clarification of the topic ban currently in effect to my person that states: " topic banned from articles about Eastern Europe, their associated talk pages, and any process discussion about same, widely construed".

Few days ago I asked a public question of the Committee here, proposing a potential solution for the ongoing disputes in EE area. I did so believing that a good-faithed comment on how to improve dispute resolution (not concerning articles) does not violate my topic ban. Now I have second thoughts, and I would appreciate a ruling on whether I was allowed to post there on this subject and whether I can keep participating in the discussion (or should I self-revert all my edits there?).

My rationale for thinking I am allowed to start and participate in that discussion is as follows:

• it is not a process discussion about EE content (I am topic banned from "articles about Eastern Europe" and discussions of them), but a (good-faithed, no-parties named) discussion about generic editor behavior in that area and how it may be improved. I always understood the "process discussions" part of the ban as ban from content-related things like AfDs, FAs, WikiProject pages and such, and the word "same" to refer to any "articles about EE", but not a ban from being able to discuss the EEML case itself (which would obviously prevent me from feeling the amendment or clarification requests) and wider, non-article specific circumstances surrounding it (which is what that particular discussion is);
• my thoughts are based on the discussion(s) seen at my Amendment request, where I am obviously allowed to post, but which is not the best place for threaded discussion, hence another place had to be found and I concluded that the public Committee discussion page is the best forum for it;
• it is a question directed (publicly) to the Committee, on the official Committee pages, hence I hope it is obvious it was never intended to be a "topic ban evasion" or such;

Hence I believe my post there and subsequent comments do not violate my topic ban. Would this be a correct belief?

If my participation in that thread is not proper, I am ready to self-revert at any time. Also, till such a time as there is consensus here that I can participate there, I will not do so. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 00:29, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Statement by other user

Clerk notes

Arbitrator views and discussion

• Strictly speaking, this is a violation of the ban. That said, good faith dispute resolution is generally considered an exception and I would be disinclined to pursue a sanction in a case like this even though it doesn't exactly qualify. On the third hand, the entire EE area suffers from waaaay too much bickering and the topic bans were made to help the participants disengage.

  In other words, it was okay-ish enough; discussing other involved editors (specifically or obliquely) is a very bad idea, but I'm not about to curtail genuine attempts to improve the area. Thread carefully, and remain constructive and I doubt you'll find opposition. — Coren  23:45, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

• Generally agree with Coren here. SirFozzie (talk) 22:36, 13 October 2010 (UTC)