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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Cptnono
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found in this 2010 ArbCom motion. According to that motion, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.
To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
- Appealing user
- Cptnono (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Cptnono (talk) 22:31, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
- Sanction being appealed
- Interaction ban with Nableezy. Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Shuki, logged at ]>
- Administrator imposing the sanction
- Timotheus Canens (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- Notification of that administrator
- The appealing editor is asked to notify the administrator who made the enforcement action of this appeal, and then to replace this text with a diff of that notification. The appeal may not be processed otherwise. If a block is appealed, the editor moving the appeal to this board should make the notification.
Statement by Cptnono
The interaction ban is based on the comment "Then you need to explain why you disregarded the admins suggestion on how to implement this. Stop going out of your way to start trouble." That was an attack in the very broadest definition. I do understand that "going out of your way" could be considered mean. I was pleading with editors to use the centralized discussion and the other comments made show this: The centralized discussion was unraveling and it was a huge concern since we were so close to getting it figured out. In hindsight, I should have taken a step back since I was only feeding the fire in my attempt.
Nableezy and I do not have a good history and there is no question that I disagree with his behavior. That leads me to what I feel is a very important part of my appeal. I was so frustrated with different editor's (especially Nableezy's which is one reason I understand where the admins are coming from) behavior that I made the mistake of being grossly uncivil in the topic area. It was inappropriate and I received a short block and it was made clear that those comments were not appropriate. Just before and shortly after I received multiple comments from others expressing that this was a path they did not like seeing me go down. The block and those comments was a reminder to me of how to act. PhilKnight expressed on his talk page that he felt this interaction ban would be appropriate based on my history with Nableezy. I have already made the decision to show a renewed effort in any interaction. I understand that my single comment was off but it is not a serious violation according to the precedent set. I of course would be willing to go even farther with efforts to be civil if this appeal is successful based on the comments by the deciding admins. I feel that I learned from my past mistakes and that this interaction ban is an overreaction to that comment based on the poor history. If anyone else would have made that comment I do not think it would have raised eyebrows. However I do understand that we cannot forget my editing history.
- @ LessHeard vanU: My intent if this is not successful would be to present evidence of better interaction in the topic area after sometime (3/6/12mos depending on how it goes). Kind of like WP:OFFER. However, I do not believe that is necessary. Although the vindicating myself is both needed and interesting, I would prefer not to do it with this over my head. Cptnono (talk) 23:12, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
- @Timotheus Canens: I know it is annoying for you as well but I am the one receiving limitations on my interactions which I feel will cause more of a burden than a solution. Didn't mean to make my appeal too long.Cptnono (talk) 23:37, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
- I see now. I'm actually surprised you aren't annoyed!Cptnono (talk) 23:51, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
- @Sean: That hypothetical doesn't have any bearing on this and the comments made in the above discussion and the admin's talk pages show that it is not relevant. I would rather such conjecture on such possible scenarios not impact any decision. Even if it were to apply, my concern is not for any other editors in the topic area but my own. I'm not appealing this based on any worry of games being played or false feelings of me needing to police the topic area. My concern is that I am inhibited for reasoning that was already taken care of (assuming my one comment was not enough to warrant such action). I should be able to respond to comments at the centralized discussion. I shouldn't have to worry if an edit I am amending is that of someone I am banned from interacting with (or if going to talk as I would often prefer to do s a problem). Those are just two examples of what ifs and we know there will be more. Being better than I was is on me and no one else.Cptnono (talk) 06:43, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
- @George: Thanks, dude. You really should be commenting on the FAN and not here. George summarized my thoughts. And since this is my appeal I do want to point out that if more editors were like him (including myself) this would be a better topic area. I also should mention that although we sometimes come down on different sides argument wise in this topic area, we have worked over at the Sounders project so there is definitely some good history. I hope this does not discredit his words but wanted to make sure that everything was extra open.Cptnono (talk) 06:49, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
- @Philknight: The last AE was incivility but none of the quotes were on Nableezy's page or directed towards him. It was inappropriate (that is why I was sanctioned) but should not have any impact on this unless my comment is considered completely out of line. Cptnono (talk) 20:43, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
- In regards to the quotes, that had nothing to do with this AE. Cptnono (talk) 20:53, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
I'm done groveling over this. Close it out. Nableezy already expressed reservations with this interaction ban before it was put in place. Tiamut also has. Other editors expressed concerns with it. I'll let editors see the various talk pages on their own. In my opinion, I am being restricted based on previous transgressions. The two admins rejecting this appeal were involved in the AE and have been dealing with the topic area so I assume they are fed up with it. You can correct me if I am wrong but it seems obvious. There is reasoning to be skeptical and I admit that but I am sick of this. I doubt it will matter much anyways. See you in three months for the request to lifted since my interactions will realistically be improved. It isn't my job to police the topic area since admins fail to and if I have to be extra careful in my interactions then so be it. That centralized discussion that I am harping about? I started it. It rubbed editors on the Israeli side the wrong way and got an edit very similar to what was being reverted over into the mainspace. You're welcome.Cptnono (talk) 06:46, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
- @Timotheus Canens: Interesting thought but I am fine without any changes. My comment was not bad enough for an interaction ban and I really am not happy with any action even if it is less. Also, my comments were pretty light in the last AE until Cla68 brought me up. If editors are going to be part of the community they need to be scrutinized by the community. So an interaction ban is fine by me. It isn't like I could comment on Nableezy's talk page since he made it clear he would disregard it. I couldn't bring it here since it was bad but not bad enough to start the drama. So what is the difference now? I can't talk to him for awhile? Fine. I'll have to be extra careful which gets under my skin but I would prefer to just drop it before it turns into more drama.Cptnono (talk) 02:46, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
- @Cla68:You didn't say anything until I changed your edit and notified you of your mistake so I have a hard time believing you were that offended. If you were there is no judgement from me about it. It would just be a coincidence that was hard to ignore. I get your point about scaring of people new to the topic, though. It isn't the first time I have heard people mention it. Yes, a more civil tone is needed. But this might be a better discussion for my talk page or the collaboration page.Cptnono (talk) 05:36, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
- @Timotheus Canens and Gatoclass: So in the future, "see the centralized discussion for this" is better than telling someone they are causing problems. I still believe the request was needed and that there was a valid concern but agree the tone needed improving, though. Feel free to close this out. We are on the same page it looks like and can figure it out in three months.Cptnono (talk) 07:03, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
Statement by Timotheus Canens
I think it is pointless unnecessary for me to add to the voluminous discussion right above on this page. My rationale for the sanctions is explained in the above discussion and on Cptnono's talk page, and I incorporate it by reference here.
@LHvU: The intent is to make it indefinite for now, with review in a few months (three months sounds good), or sooner if the situation deteriorates, when it would likely be either lifted or changed into a topic ban. T. Canens (talk) 23:31, 29 November 2010 (UTC) Modified, T. Canens (talk) 23:48, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
- @Gatoclass: It's not victimless. A hostile editing environment drives away new users, even if the old-timers got used to it. T. Canens (talk) 16:08, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
I have thought a bit more about this. The problem here is that discussions become unnecessarily personalized, in large part because people are throwing in conduct complaints in content discussions. This, in turn, creates a hostile editing environment and fosters further battleground behavior. I'm open to replacing this particular set of interaction bans with something similar to the restriction AGK imposed here, but I want to get some more comments first. T. Canens (talk) 23:34, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
Statement by (involved editor 1)
Statement by (involved editor 2)
Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Cptnono
- Statement by LessHeard vanU
At the very least could there be some clarification on the length of the topic ban, it apparently being indefinite presently? The strictures on being able to edit certain topic area's may be sufficient to promote among the parties a desire to interact more appropriately, and I would urge that some further consideration may be given to permitting an appeal to lift these sanctions after a defined period (6 months?) if Cptnono's appeal here is unsuccessful and the tariff is determined to be either indefinite or 1 year or more. (I realise this is not discussing the appeal directly, but I am too involved to be acting as an admin on this page but wanted to address some issues and make suggestions.) LessHeard vanU (talk) 23:06, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
- Statement by George
I think that this was a bit of a knee-jerk reaction. Cptnono was blocked for three hours for incivility only five days ago, largely due to interactions with Nableezy. I've seen them express frustration in interacting with Nableezy since then, but haven't seen much in the way of incivility, and I'm not in favor of someone being punished twice for the same offense. The comment Cptnono made to Nableezy in this discussion was borderline uncivil at best, and comparable to the tone of interactions between Wehwalt and SandyGeorgia in this discussion (I'm not commenting on either of those editors, nor suggesting an interaction ban between them, just noting the similarity in the tone in a conversation involving an administrator.) Given Cptnono's expressed understanding of the issue with the tone of their recent commentary, including the comment that led to this ban, and their professed willingness to try to improve on it, this sanction strikes me as more punitive then preventative. Having worked with both editors, I believe they have the ability to contribute and discuss constructively, even with each other, and this interaction ban will create annoying hurdles for both editors that I don't view as necessary at this point. I would suggest either removing it entirely, or reducing it to something like one week, with a warning that future, problematic interactions between them will result in a longer interaction ban. ← George 00:17, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
- Question from Sean.hoyland
What happens if one editor accepts (=takes no action to appeal) an interaction ban and the other one doesn't by the way ? I have no idea whether that applies in this case but I'm just asking. Sean.hoyland - talk 06:28, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
I didn't see the discussion on the admins page. Nevermind then. Sean.hoyland - talk 09:50, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
- Hi Sean, having just one half of an interaction ban in force would be a recipe for disaster so, I guess that either both sanctions are in force or neither. PhilKnight (talk) 20:00, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
- Staement by BorisG
I think this sanction interprets NPA and civility policy way too broadly. I believe it is profoundly wrong because if we continue on this path we will have no way to have an argument between editors. Sharp debates are a useful and necessary part of collaboration. - BorisG (talk) 08:35, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
- Statement by PhilKnight
Obviously, I still support this restriction. From my perspective there's little difference between making it 3 months in duration, or reviewing after 3 months. In terms of why it's necessary, in addition to the comments by Cla68 in the original discussion, which relate to the thread linked by Cptnono, there have been 2 reports has been a report at WP:ANI in the last few weeks concerning Nableezy placing less than favorable quotes by Cptnono on his user page. In these circumstances, I think an interaction ban is worth trying. PhilKnight (talk) 20:07, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
Comment by Gatoclass
I opposed the interaction bans when they were first proposed. Since then I have found WP:IBAN and it appears to me that such bans are not quite as onerous as I assumed, since the editors concerned can still edit the same pages but are prohibited from reverting each other's edits or commenting directly to or about one another. Also, PhilKnight has proposed a review after three months, a ban subject to periodic review would certainly be a lot less objectionable to me. However, before commenting further I would like to hear what Nableezy thinks. With an appeal of this nature, I think we should hear from both involved parties before making a decision. Gatoclass (talk) 06:26, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
I'm not sure if Nableezy intends to comment here or not, but I think he made a good point on his talk page, which is, if two editors are not unduly offended by each other's comments, and are prepared to continue working together, why should admins step in to slap an interaction ban on them? It does seem like a victimless crime. So I think if Nableezy is prepared to continue working with Cptnono and vice versa, there's a good case for upholding this appeal. Gatoclass (talk) 14:18, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
- Well I'm sorry Cla, but I just don't buy the argument about hypothetical noobs being "intimidated" by a few sharp exchanges between others. In fact the opposite is typically the case - it's the noobs who need to learn to tone down their responses in accordance with policy. But if a user is so thin-skinned that they are going to allow themselves to be "intimidated" by a little friction between other editors, they are unlikely to last five minutes on Misplaced Pages in any case - let alone in a contentious topic area. Gatoclass (talk) 05:29, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
- In regards to T. Canen's suggestion per AGK of instant blocks for comments on contributor rather than content, I am opposed to such blanket methods. While comments on contributor are usually unhelpful and should be avoided, sometimes it is necessary to call someone out for their behaviour, and sometimes that helps get discussion moving again. Personal attacks are more problematic, but not everyone agrees on what constitutes such an attack.
- In any case, I don't think blocking is an effective counter for such conduct, and worse, it leaves a permanent blot on someone's record that can then be used as an excuse for an indef ban. The bottom line is that if one cracks down too hard on civility, one leaves the field to the civil POV pusher who is usually the one doing the most damage to content. Gatoclass (talk) 06:52, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
- I don't think you understand how this particular variety of sanction works. The point of the blanket approach is that, whilst we should always call somebody on inappropriate content, we should never call them on the article talk page. AGK 12:30, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
- You're right, I don't follow at all. Would you mind elaborating? Gatoclass (talk) 13:40, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
- The idea is to separate discussions on content from discussions on conduct. Discussions on content, which we are primarily concerned with when we worry about the attractiveness of a topic area to new editors, belong on the article talk page. Discussions on conduct is good and all, but they belong at other venues - e.g., ANI, AE, RFC/U, whatever. You can comment on the contributor all you want - within reason, of course - but you can't do it on an article talk page. T. Canens (talk) 17:58, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
- You're right, I don't follow at all. Would you mind elaborating? Gatoclass (talk) 13:40, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
- Okay, well I can't endorse that notion either. We shouldn't be encouraging editors to run to dispute resolution every time someone makes a comment about their conduct. That's just an invitation to gaming the system. Gatoclass (talk) 06:54, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
- User talk is fine too, if DR is unneeded; the point is that conduct matters should stay outside article talk as much as possible. T. Canens (talk) 08:12, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
- Okay, well I can't endorse that notion either. We shouldn't be encouraging editors to run to dispute resolution every time someone makes a comment about their conduct. That's just an invitation to gaming the system. Gatoclass (talk) 06:54, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
- When we have accusations of bad faith flying around, we've no problem but to make users take their grievances through the correct channels. Responsible editors do that anyway, in virtually all cases. Why should those who edit in troubled topic areas be any different? I genuinely don't see what your objection to this is. We're basically enforcing a utopian editing environment; frankly, I think that's better than letting things turn to chaos (as they have in many articles), because even if the end result does fall short of perfect, at least it's a start.
Making comments about user conduct in the middle of a content discussion is never appropriate. This sanction simply makes that enforcable. Win-win. And, it's almost ungamable, because people learn the rules on this one super fast—and the result is a more harmonious editing environment, and one in which the actual content can be discussed without lots of background noise and shouting. AGK 21:39, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
- Well said. Cla68 (talk) 03:42, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
- When we have accusations of bad faith flying around, we've no problem but to make users take their grievances through the correct channels. Responsible editors do that anyway, in virtually all cases. Why should those who edit in troubled topic areas be any different? I genuinely don't see what your objection to this is. We're basically enforcing a utopian editing environment; frankly, I think that's better than letting things turn to chaos (as they have in many articles), because even if the end result does fall short of perfect, at least it's a start.
Comment by AGK
As the administrator who initially remedied the interaction ban in question, I oppose the appeal. I am not convinced that Cptnono can interact constructively with Nableezy. I would be inclined instead to put everybody on a level footing, and levy an interaction ban with Nableezy. They shouldn't be bringing user conduct into article content discussions in the first place. AGK 21:48, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
- I also wonder why I was not notified about the existence of this appeal. Have we forgotten process and courtesy, amongst all the drama that this board today faces? AGK 21:52, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
- I'm fairly sure I imposed this interaction ban...See Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive74#Result concerning Shuki. T. Canens (talk) 01:39, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
Comment by Cla68
Gatoclass, it doesn't matter if Nableezy and Cptnono aren't offended by each others' comments. That article talk page is publicly viewable. The over-the-top hostile tone of their interaction with each other could very well intimidate other editors, especially new editors, from wanting to get involved in the content discussion. That kind of discourse on an article talk page is unacceptable, and both of them should know better. Cla68 (talk) 22:46, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
Result of the appeal by Cptnono
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- Proposed, per T. Canens: that, in response to the primary concerns and to action this request, Nableezy be sanctioned like this. Secondary concerns remaining include: whether Cptnono and/or Nableezy should be topic banned in addition, or whether the proposed sanction, coupled with Cptnono's ban on interaction with Nableezy, will remedy the problems that exist with their conduct; and whether additional sanctions of other users are required. AGK 21:43, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
- What? This is an appeal, not a new case. The options are to either uphold the appeal or reject it. It's not an opportunity for you to pile on yet more sanctions to a user who has already been topic banned. Gatoclass (talk) 10:20, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
Nableezy
Jiujitsuguy topic banned for 3 months and Nableezy topic banned 4 months |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Nableezy
The 1948 Palestinian exodus is currently under a 1r restriction per recent enforcement action and warning of same is amply noted on the article. Nableezy, an experienced editor whose rap sheet on Misplaced Pages evidences recidivist tendencies has now violated the 1r restriction by making two reverts in rapid succession, reverting myself as well as another editor.
Though the reverts relate to two different edits they are both within the same article and are still deemed reverts per Philknight and an experienced editor like Nableezy should know better. He will undoubtedly claim ignorance and engage in extensive wikilawyering as he always does but I’m sure that those entrusted with upholding and dispensing equal justice will see through his shenanigans once and for all. It appears that Nableezy has withstood many AE’s brought against him while others in the topic area who do not share his view have been subjected to overly harsh topic bans. I hope that in light of Nableezy’s prior record, a sanction, consistent with those recently issued against Shuki and Wikifan (whose records are far better) is issued.
@T. Canens, Philknight,HMitchel. I didn't violate 1r, I didn't game, I discussed my single revert on Talk, I was never accused of being uncivil and I think my record is a bit better than Nableezy's. May I ask why I would be given a sanction equal to Nableezy?--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 01:36, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
Statement by NableezyI self-reverted one revert, so I have made exactly one revert on this article, part of which was rewording the line to appease those editors who had a problem with saying something has been widely called ethnic cleansing when the source says Abu Sitta is a leading expert on the nakbah and what is nowadays widely described as the "ethnic cleansing" it involved. I also added sources for the statement among which was a leading historian saying that what took place was ethnic cleansing. So in sum, I made exactly 1 revert, rewording the sentence to comply with the objections posted by others on the talk page, expanding on the material in the body to comply with other objections posted on the talk page, and Jiujitsuguy defines that as "gaming". Lets take a look at this charge, because it is an interesting one. Jiujitsuguy has since Nov 29th made all of three edits to the article along with 2 edits to the article talk page. Those three edits, one on the 29th, one yesterday, and one today, were all removing this line. Those edits are all the edits he has ever made to this article. The two edits he has made to the talk page are as follows: yesterday he says he doesnt understand why the term "ethnic cleansing" is placed in quotes in the sources, and uses that absurd reason to remove the line. Today, he again asks this question and again removes the line from the article. Prior to him repeating the question, an answer was given and additional sources were provided for the statement. Yet Jiujitsuguy plays WP:IDHT and repeats the same silly question as though it absolves him of providing a real reason for removing the content. There are users here that are simply playing a game, using whatever thread they can pull from a policy, guideline, or essay they think supports their immediate goal of removing content that makes a certain place look less than perfect. They do this while knowingly and purposely ignoring NPOV, and they do it spectacularly well. The arguments so far advanced for completely removing this sentence was that contained a "word to avoid" or that it was not expanded upon in the body. Instead of changing a single word or adding material to the body, multiple editors remove the sentence under the guise of following this style guideline or that essay. Yes, I self-reverted a different edit so that I could use the revert here. That is not gaming, that is the opposite of gaming. I dont intend on waiting for 24 hours so that I am allowed to revert an <redacted> edit made without even a wave at Misplaced Pages policy, I dont intend to play that game. Ask Jiujitsuguy to explain how either of the two edits he made to the talk page justifies the 3 reverts he has made, 2 of them within 28 hours. As of this point, I have made a single revert on that page. I dont intend to make any more, and each of the editors here who oppose the edit has yet to see fit to respond to my replies on the talk page, which as of right now nobody has responded to in the past 3 hours. Yet they somehow are able to spend time here making several comments. I wonder why that is. nableezy - 21:37, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
To accommodate Jiujitsuguy's newly found sensitivities, I've redacted a single word in my initial response. nableezy - 22:17, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
I dont understand how self-reverting to perform a different revert can be characterized as gaming. It is entirely transparent, and Jiujitsuguy certainly seems to take advantage of what a 1RR "entitles" him to on a regular basis, see for example the 28 hour revert cycle on this article , , or the recent edit history of 1982 Lebanon War, or Preemptive war, or really any article Jiujitsuguy edits. nableezy - 03:18, 3 December 2010 (UTC) I think the most telling thing about this process is that two users who have removed the contested sentence from the article, Jiujitsuguy and No More Mr Nice Guy, have each made several edits to this page since my revert. They have not however made any comments in what is now going on 27 hours to the talk page of the article. Yes, I made a revert. But the revert that I made was not simply a straight revert. NMMNG raised 3 issues on the talk page. 1. there are "words to avoid" in the sentence, 2. the material is not expanded on in the body, and 3. BRD was not followed. The first 2 of these are valid objections, the last is a transparent attempt at filibustering. In my edit, I addressed both 1 and 2. I then asked on the talk page if there were any further concerns. NMMNG has yet to respond there, but has the time to make several comments here. Jiujitsuguy's reasons for reverting on the talk page are laughable at best, but even those reasons have been addressed. Neither party seems interested in the actual content here, as evidenced by their apparent willingness to completely avoid the discussion. You can say what you will about my use of AE, but almost all of the AE requests I make are based on editors acting in an unacceptable manner in article space. That is, my concern is the content of the articles. Here, the user is concerned with eliminating an "enemy", not in making sure that the content of the article be compliant with the policies of this website.A number of admins have been calling my use of a self-revert to be an example of "gaming". I've already said why I dont feel this to be the case, but if yall see it that way then so be it. But a bit of advice, if I might be so bold to assume you might listen. If you dont want this to be looked at as a game, try to make this more than an exercise in counting. Jiujitsuguy makes a revert on the 1st and makes a comment, note not an actual reason, at the talk page. He waits 28 hours so that he may perform another revert, making the same comment at the talk page without so much as acknowledging the response to his initial comment. If this isnt a game, the rules shouldnt allow for these nominal gestures of making a comment and then waiting for 24 hours to do the exact same thing. For some reason that I have yet to comprehend, you all seem to think that the number of reverts a person makes determines whether or not that person is a "disruption". Its as if you believe that because you must remain "uninvolved" that you cannot actually look at the content of the reverts. You follow a simple formula, if the revert was not removing the word "fuck" inserted by a vandal or an obvious BLP issue it counts as 1 strike. The strike count is reset after 24 hours. If you have 2 strikes at any point you are a "disruption" and will be sanctioned. Honestly, do the rules I describe resemble anything more than a game? I dont want to play this game, which is why I simply self-reverted a different revert so that I could perform this revert. I think the idea that waiting 24 hours makes a "bad" revert into a "good" one incredibly stupid. I knew there was more than a decent chance that we would end up here when I made the edit. I object to the idea that I purposely gamed the 1RR. This will sound arrogant, in fact it is arrogant, but I really am much smarter than that. If I wanted to game around the restriction I would be much more clever in doing so, I wouldnt simply make a self-revert then label a different revert as a 1 revert. One more request, can yall please try to resolve these issues more quickly? nableezy - 21:58, 3 December 2010 (UTC) Discussion concerning Nableezy
Didn't nableezy very quickly self-revert one of the reverts? This self-revert reverted this revert --Mkativerata (talk) 20:00, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
I want to make it clear because the request as filed focuses on a 1RR violation, which I don't think is the issue:
The issue seems to be whether Nableezy was gaming 1RR. But of course there could be a good explanation - it seems to me that Jiujitsuguy's edit removed the basis for Nableezy's revert (removing the material in the article that supported the category). --Mkativerata (talk) 20:28, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
Mkativerata, Nableezy just took me to AE on a very similar revert issue so he should stop belittling others. He should know that my punishment was supposed to calm things down, but he is apparently still on the warpath. You trying to justify his very poor judgement is unbecoming of an admin like yourself. Why get yourself burnt? Nableezy is claiming that Jiujitsuguy is using whatever thread they can pull from a policy, guideline, or essay they think supports their immediate goal of removing content. I laugh. What did he do to me? On two reverts the book was thrown at me. Nableezy knows the rules better than most of his and should have merely relaxed. Shuki 6 month ban, Wikifan 8 month ban. Who's next? --Shuki (talk) 22:46, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
@Amatulic: I agree that a number of editors are out to "get" Nableezy and have him removed from the area of conflict. However, that doesn't change the fact that these AEs may on occasion throw up real, actionable, violations of policies and norms. I think we need a clear view one way or the other on whether Nableezy's actions are acceptable - a warning to avoid actions that other involved editors may perceive to be violations leaves us hanging a bit. Nableezy's statement and my own comments above also raise questions about the filer's own actions which I think warrant interrogation. --Mkativerata (talk) 23:33, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
@Jiujitsuguy and Mbz1: In my view, the sanctionable conduct is the ongoing reversion of material from the article during an active discussion about its retention. Expected standards of behaviour go beyond formal compliance with reversion rules and extend to seeking consensus instead of engaging in tendentious editing to pre-empt and disrupt consensus-building processes. If there is a discussion on whether to include certain content, discuss and don't revert. Although I agree it would be useful to whoever closes this out to make it quite clear why sanctions will be imposed on Jiujitsuguy. --Mkativerata (talk) 01:45, 3 December 2010 (UTC) There seems to be some confusion about what it is said that J did wrong. It is more than an issue with one edit:
@Amatulic - with respect I think that is a whitewash of what is going on this article. Nableezy states "We are allowed 1 revert per day". Wrong. That is part of the mentality causing so many problems. On the other hand, the evidence I've pointed to above shows a clear pattern of tendentious editing and edit warring by Jiujitsuguy. This is trench warfare and it needs firm sanctions in response. --Mkativerata (talk) 01:33, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
It appears that Nableezy self-reverted their first revert 6 minutes prior to making the second revert? ← George 20:06, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
I came to the article through a pending change notification of an edit by NoMoreMrNiceGuy in my watchlist. As the change was clearly not vandalism I permitted it. I thought that the edit was an illegitimate removal of a sourced statement, however, so I re-added text similar to that removed, but slightly lower down in the Lead. My re-wording was an attempt to more closely reflect what the source had said. I think that the article history and the talk page contents will both show that NoMoreMrNiceGuy and Jiujitsuguy both removed a validly sourced statement for illegitimate reasons while baselessly claiming to have consensus. ← ZScarpia 20:29, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
Jujitsuguy's summary of Nableezy's edits is seriously misleading by omitting the intervening self-revert at 18.43. By submitting such a seriously distorted case and omitting evidence apparently fatal to his claim, Jjg is underhandedly gaming the system. This submission should be speedily rejected. RolandR (talk) 20:31, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
Amatulić, please be fair and do a similar investigation for the number of AEs Nableezy has pulled against his opponents. I welcome you to AE, but be careful before having mercy on this editor. I'm sure you can see for yourself Nableezy's bans and blacks, including 1RR before the general 1RR was in place. I've lost count of his multiple 24+20 minute reverts. You are right, enough is enough of this battleground and remorseless mentality. --Shuki (talk) 22:50, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
Phil, what are you going to ban Jiujitsuguy for? And how about agreeing with Timotheus Canens? And why only one month for Nableezy? Aren't topic bans supposed to be escalated as you've done with Wikifan?--Mbz1 (talk) 00:25, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
Jiujitsuguy is constantly violating npov with his edits within the Arab-Israeli conflict, here are just some examples: Claims the Mount Hermon ski resort in the Golan Heights is "in Israel": . Refers to Syrian soldiers in Golan Heights as "during the years that Gamla was under Syrian military occupation". he uses this as an argument to use a map of Israel for a place that is internationally recognized as in Syria. Ads a map of Israel for a Cave in East Jerusalem:"Undid revision 398232226 by activist editor". Claims Gamla in the Golan Heights is "owned" by Israel:. Removes that Rachels Tomb is in the West Bank and ads that its "owned" by Israel:. Claims Mount Hermon which is 100% in Syria and Lebanon and no part of it is in Israel, is "in Israel" and says: "Part of the Hermon lies in Israel and in fact, it is a magnet for tourists w/ ski resorts & lodges, while the Syrian Hermon lies in waste". Claims that territories that Israel occupied in the Six day war is "Israels territories": This is clearly someone who has severely failed to adhere to a neutral pov, and is inserting his personal pov into articles, instead of a neutral pov. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 02:22, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
Furthermore I have now found an article written by Jiujitsuguy where he says some pretty disturbing things, including "Islamofacist influence on Misplaced Pages" and refers to Misplaced Pages editors as "hordes of Jihadists and like-minded anti-Semites." This is clearly not someone who should be editing within the topic area. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 13:46, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
Setting aside the technicalities of 1RR policy/gaming, I don't think it is the case that 'Nableezy and Jiujitsuguy have been at each other's throats for quite a while now'. Jujitsuguy was given the opportunity of a fresh start after his unblocking following the investigation into his off-wiki activities and publications (with my help). I think peace has largely prevailed between Nableezy and Jiujitsuguy since then and Jujitsuguy has refocused his efforts on trying to get Supreme blocked/topic banned (apparently requiring some use of double standards on his part User_talk:PhilKnight#Shuki given statements he has made off wiki). It's disappointing that Jujitsuguy has decided to revert to his previous belligerent approach towards Nableezy. What seems pretty pointless about this incident is that the content will almost certainly eventually say what Jujitsuguy and others are working hard to prevent it from saying simply because that will be the inevitable result of applying the rules that govern content decisions to the information present in reliable sources. Contrary to popular belief in some circles, blocking editors does not erase information in reliable sources. One set of editors are adding sourced content, the other set are removing the content together with the sources. They seem like quite different types of behavior to me. The discussion on the talk page should be allowed to take it's course without being disrupted so perhaps protecting the article and forcing everyone to resolve the issues through discussion might work better. I'd also encourage admins to take a look at the discussions and compare the natures of the arguments being used. It's a pity that everyone didn't just stop editing and talk about it rather than start another report-fest. This case is different from Shuki's. That was an example of someone simply refusing to abide by the result of a centralized consensus decision that will result in changes to a large number of articles. Sean.hoyland - talk 05:19, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
Amatulic is correct in pointing out that there have been many reports filed against Nableezy with the hopes of making some stick. This should not be one of them. Nableezy has said above he did not intend to game the system. He has also stated that if undoing a revert to make another revert is unacceptable, he will not do it again (even offering to restore the page to where it was before his interventions). He has taken great pains to follow the numerous restrictions under which he is permitted to edit. A sanction now would be punitive and serve no purpose. Tiamut 09:17, 3 December 2010 (UTC) Comment by GatoclassWhile I am tempted to add some commentary on the behaviour of the respective parties in this dispute, I think I will refrain on this occasion. However, I must take issue with tariqabjotu's comment about users "who seem to always be in the vicinity of battleground disputes". That strikes me as guilt by association. Just because two (or more) users find themselves commonly engaged in disputation, doesn't necessarily mean that both are equally to blame for it. Gatoclass (talk) 11:27, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
While I initially declined to comment on the merits of this case, talk of escalating sanctions prompts me to reconsider. Firstly, I agree that Nableezy's self-revert constitutes gaming the system, and in a way that I think indicates a WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality (in that he couldn't even wait 24 hours to make his next revert). His recent flurry of initiated cases against other users also indicates that his levels of frustration have currently reached breaking point. So I accept that he might benefit from a brief break from the fray. On the other hand, I am concerned that some administrators have apparently chosen to completely ignore the evidence of tendentious editing on Jiujitsu's part presented by Supreme Deliciousness. It does appear to me that on this board the actual goals of the project are frequently lost sight of. The goal of this project is not to teach people to be nice to one another, or to enforce rules about 1RR, it's to build an encyclopedia. Tendentious editing is far more harmful to this project than petty breaches of such restrictions. When users insert demonstrable falsehoods into articles such as that the Sinai or the Golan Heights are "in Israel" or "Israel's territory" that should ring very loud alarm bells. So I must repudiate any notion that Nableezy deserves a longer sanction than Jiujitsu; if anything, the opposite is the case. Moreover, one must consider not only the offence, but the provocation. Gatoclass (talk) 01:41, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
If reverting/restoring while discussion is ongoing is an ARBPIA enforceable violation, could you guys state that clearly somewhere so editors could be pointed to the ruling? It would also be helpful if you let us know what state the article should be left in once discussion is open. Should contested material be left out of the article pending the conclusion of the discussion, or is the version that is in place when discussion is open kept, or what? These things need to be made clear, since this situation happens very often indeed. It would also be helpful if admins let us know to what extent prior behavior and prior sanctions come into effect when determining enforcement here. I noticed the two admins who commented in the previous request saying prior behavior (in that case over a year old) should be taken into account have yet to make a statement. I await their opinions on this case. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 14:09, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
@Nableezy: Nice of you to acknowledge I had valid objections. On the talk page you called my concerns a charade. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 23:19, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
I think (in fact it is obvious) that both editors are making numerous valuable contributions in this area and therefore the proposed lentghy topic ban is detrimental to wikipedia. Esteemed admins below surely don't need to be reminded that our common goal is to build a solid encyclopedia, not to create a gentlemens club. We need to find a solution that does not damage wikipedia. I think that this small violation should result in no action (ok maybe a very short ban, of, say, 24 hours), however both users should be banned from using AE for a set time. Cheers. - BorisG (talk) 14:30, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
Why everybody here believes that Jiujitsuguy has been on nableezy throat? No he has been not, just the opposite. Please see what he wrote to nableezy: "Third, I do not wish to gain any advantage over you during your 1R restriction and I will attempt to voluntarily restrain myself to 1R in articles that you and I have disagreement, for the duration of your restriction"--Mbz1 (talk) 17:01, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
I find Nableezy's actions reasonalble and Jiujitsuguy's actions unreasonalble. In fact, an argument can be made that Jiujitsuguy's removal of the sourced content constitutes vandalism – thus restoring it does not count as an revert per WP:3RR. At the very least I suspect it was done in bad faith in an effort to undermine Nableezy's actions. I am also worried by the current trend to see 1RR restrictions more restricting than they are or should be – as exemplified by the resent WP:AE request against User:SlimVirgin. The current atmosphere makes any reasonable editing or use of the WP:BRD cycle almost impossible. The aim of the game is for editors to negotiate on the content. This is exactly what Nableezy was doing. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 23:09, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
Result concerning NableezyI observe that Nableezy cases have appeared here rather frequently, almost as if someone has an objective to create a case for every archive of this page:
Perhaps I missed some. In any case, of all those Nableezy cases above, only a couple resulted in any significant action. The rest are not actionable or no action was required. This observation leads me to believe that a group of editors have been trying to use this Enforcement page as a tool against Nableezy at any opportunity, where any good-faith action on Nableezy's part that can be interpreted as a violation is reported here as a violation. The impression given by the list above is as if there's some coordinated effort to use this enforcement page as a weapon. Enough, I say. At the most, given the statements made by involved editors above, Nableezy should be warned about using self-reverts to make a more desired revert. Whether or not Nableezy believes that is gaming the 1RR restriction, the fact remains that it appears as gaming by others. I would also warn other editors to refrain from making frivolous accusations on this page. ~Amatulić (talk) 22:41, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
Per recent comments above this section by Sol and BorisG, I stand by my original view that a warning is sufficient for both. The encyclopedia is not improved by topic-banning constructive editors who happen to have disagreements, and also not by banning one on a technicality in which he was trying to make improvements. AGF applies to both parties here. Maybe Nableezy wasn't consciously gaming 1RR in spite of how it looks. Maybe Jiujitsuguy isn't gaming the AE forum in spite of how it looks. AGF, guys. I propose that the 1RR restriction apply not to individuals, but to the topics that Nableezy and Jiujitsuguy work together in, which seems to be mostly P-I stuff (hasn't this been done already? I thought PhilKnight went through these articles). Then there would be no issue with one editor who isn't under 1RR to gain the upper hand over another who is. ~Amatulić (talk) 01:22, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
This can now be closed, I think. Based on the discussion above, and under the authority of WP:ARBPIA#Discretionary sanctions:
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Littleolive oil and Edith Sirius Lee 2
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Request concerning Littleolive oil and Edith Sirius Lee 2
- User requesting enforcement
- Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 08:06, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Littleolive oil (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Edith Sirius Lee 2 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Sanction or remedy that this user violated
- "that editor repeatedly or seriously violates the behavioural standards or editorial processes of Misplaced Pages in connection with these articles."
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- In this dif from Olive she refers to directs quotes from JAMA as "your personal biases". This is against WP:CIVIL, WP:DUE and the current ArbCom remedies. She has current restrictions in place here .
- In these difs from Edith and my views are referred to as "paranoid" A warning was given here for this previous edit where she states "Doc James destroyed years of work". This user has subsequently changed user names to User:Edith Sirius Lee 2
- Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)
- Topic area ban for Edith, Warning for Olive
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
- This users have an admitted WP:COI in that she admits to practicing TM. They edit this subject area primarily or exclusively.
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
- Olive here
- Edith
Discussion concerning Littleolive oil
Statement by Littleolive oil
Mainspace edits per "They edit this subject area primarily or exclusively."
Clarifications and context per the TM arbitration:
- All editors on the list created by EdJohnston, as well as Jmh649 (Doc James) and Will Beback were parties in the TM arbitration.
- All editors were included in the decisions and remedies
- After months of deliberation and multiple pages of evidence, no single editor, with one exception, and no so-called group was found to be any more or less at blame than any other.
- No COI was found/named in the arbitration
- The TM arbitration did not in any way identify editors as belonging to "groups", but treated editors as individuals.
- The TM arbitration discretionary sanction statement cited by Doc James, says a warning is required (bold). The full statement says:
Any uninvolved administrator may, in his or her own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor editing Transcendental meditation or other articles concerning Transcendental meditation and related biographies of living people, broadly defined, if, after a warning, that editor repeatedly or seriously violates the behavioural standards or editorial processes of Misplaced Pages in connection with these articles.
- Per the TM arbitration I was not warned, nor does one strongly worded statement constitute," repeatedly or seriously violates the behavioural standards or editorial processes."
Statement:
My comment in the TM talk page was not a response to the JAMA article. It was a response to Doc James' history of personalizing comments, lack of assuming good faith, and hisj insistence on editing on a body of research from a singular point of view. Its clear from this thread,that I wasn’t sure what James was referring to. My intent was not to offend another editor but to express serious concern to an editor who has a history of unilateral editing, (even in the face of an RfC, where he split content off the main article including the TM research, on the second day of an RfC, while another solution had been suggested by an uninvolved editor, in the face of editor disagreement, effectively preempting the RfC) . However, the comment was strongly worded, and since it offended I sincerely apologize and will strike the statement.
On three previous occasions I have asked James to assume good faith:
Concerns I have with Doc James' editing behaviour
Personalizing comments on the TM article talk page:
- "Well it seems that TM publishes a huge amount which they like to brag about little of the work has any real scientific substance to it."
- "We do know that peoples who lively-hood and identity depend on TM disagree with a major report that found it either ineffective… "
- "You will need to convince Misplaced Pages editors who are not practitioners of TM the validity of your argument…."
- "Yes the three of you agree but you also all practice TM. Now please get some outside input."
- "You and a number of editors who practice TM keep changing it. There have been no attempts by those who practice TM to get outside supporting opinions. It seems that only those who practice TM agree with the wording presented."
- "Some have a desire to present the topic in a non NPOV manner with TM meaning only the technique in line with statements of official TM material.."
- Many more diffs if wanted or needed
Not assuming good faith:
- "I have the impression of efforts to suppress information regarding the TM movement with a desire to give greater emphasis to the technique."
- "I personally see KB list as just a specific selection of sites to support his POV."
Misrepresentation/POV of research/Deletion sourced content on research:
(Violations of TM arbitration)
- Deletes material from a 2007 book published by McGrawHill Medical. The material was sourced to a chapter authored by three scientists from the National Institutes of Health and an assistant professor of clinical psychiatry at Columbia University Medical Center.
- Removes material sourced to a 2008 research review in BMC Psychiatry and a 2006 research review in the journal Ethnicity and Disease.
- At the same time, he discredits research on TM (and violates WP:MEDRS) by quoting a 1985 book on religion that claims "that the original findings had been false or exaggerated."
This is the second time James has brought me to AE on charges that are misrepresentations. I was taken to AE, restricted by Future Perfect At Sunrise and the case was closed before I could make a comment. I was restricted based on making two reverts is two months. Neither of these requests is right or fair, nor serves the time of editors who come to these AE/N in any capacity.
As an editor, I am doing everything I can to support a collegial, collaborative editing environment, and to move away from convoluted discussion, that includes actively helping to draft a recent RfC suggestion section, asking a neutral outside admin. to come in to gauge consensus when there was disagreement, applying for two mediations, and starting the preliminaries for a third.
Comment by Will Beback
One of the principles from the arbitration concerned assuming good faith:
- Decorum and assumptions of good faith
- Misplaced Pages users are expected to behave reasonably, calmly, and courteously in their interactions with other users. Unseemly conduct, such as personal attacks, incivility, assumptions of bad faith, harassment, disruptive point-making, and gaming the system, is prohibited. Making unsupported accusations of such misconduct by other editors, particularly where this is done in repeatedly or in a bad-faith attempt to gain an advantage in a content dispute, is also unacceptable.
The remedies instruct uninvolved admins to the enforce the listed principles:
- Guidance for uninvolved administrators
- Uninvolved administrators are invited to monitor the articles in the area of conflict to enforce compliance by editors with, in particular, the principles outlined in this case. Enforcing administrators are instructed to focus on fresh and clear-cut matters arising after the closure of this case rather than on revisiting historical allegations.
If uninvolved admins think this is a clear-cut case of assuming bad faith then it would be appropriate to enforce compliance using the discretionary sanctions. Will Beback talk 09:29, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
- (Moved from admins section): I was caught by surprise by this filing, but I believe there is relevant evidence to present here. I think the best thing would be to put this case on hold for a few days to collect and present that material before making a determination. Or, to withdraw it and re-post it shortly. Will Beback talk 14:00, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
Comment by Edith Sirius Lee
Is this officially an AE about Fladrif, TimidGuy and me as well? Since the issue is the lack of progression at the content level, should not admins consider the attitude of all involved editors toward consensus at the content level. @Tijfo098, the adjective "paranoid" was qualifying content (in sources), not editors. Also, the "independently done" is about content. TimidGuy also shared the same opinion about the "independently done". It is just a content dispute. Edith Sirius Lee (talk) 14:23, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
Technical request to move a misplaced comment |
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I respectfully request that Will Beback respects the following guideline in the section below: "This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above." I will remove this comment after that. Edith Sirius Lee (talk) 14:26, 4 December 2010 (UTC) |
Comments by others about the request concerning Littleolive oil
Gadzooks, someone please give that poor talkpage a break from the endless hair-splittingly circular arguments and misrepresentation of sources by the proponents (mostly). TM is a form of alternative medicine, so I consider myself WP:INVOLVED despite not having edited there. - 2/0 (cont.) 16:46, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
- I would like to see more than that one dif. One dif does not a pattern make. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 18:27, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
- Comment by Tijfo098
Selective quotation from Talk:Transcendental Meditation#An medical article looking at cost and adverse effects:
Olive: "You clearly are attempting to present the pejorative view." DocJames: "Some people who practice TM says it allows them to fly and have eternal health." Olive: "You are conflating your personal bias with use of sources."
While observing the proportions, this situation appears not dissimilar from that of User:Destinero, who while right about the core science issue related to LGBT parenting, nevertheless chooses the most strident language to proclaim it, and actually manages to support his choice of words with citations (usually page xx out of a long amicus brief of affidavit by a major researcher or science organization), and hardly ever agrees to a compromise on the language regardless of what language other major science orgs use. Ironically, Destinero is the one usually dragged to admin boards for this; ANI, because there was no arbitration case on that topic.
To conclude, there may be POV pushing at work here, but it doesn't seem to me from that discussion that it's only from one side. Tijfo098 (talk) 19:44, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
P.S.: I read some of the context for that thread above where Doc cites Rodney Stark (whose views on the world are highly correlated with his current employer) to say that "Yes I have found a few sources that share my main stream scientific point of view regarding TM and could find many more... " That was funny not in the least because the words "fiercely polemical" are in the first sentence of a NYT book review of one of Stark's books: . Tijfo098 (talk) 19:57, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
- Regading EdJohnston's 4-way ban proposal
After reading the unarchived talk page there, I think User:Edith Sirius Lee can be justifiably topic banned for repeatedly breaching decorum esp. calling skeptic views of TM "paranoid", and for general absurd lawyering e.g. regarding the word "independently", but I don't see evidence for banning the others listed by EdJohnson. I'm particularly bewildered by the suggestion to ban User:Fladrif as TM proponent; see Talk:Transcendental Meditation#Changes lead. Perhaps the algorithm invoked is red link user name => ban? Tijfo098 (talk) 06:56, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
- I know its way off topic, but just to put in a good word for User:Fladrif,he stepped in first to rescue the Michael Welner BLP; he spent a lot of time with the sources too. Mr.Grantevans2 (talk) 02:26, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
Result concerning Littleolive oil
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
Littleolive oil was one of the parties in the June, 2010 Arbcom decision known as WP:ARBTM and I understand that she has a TM affiliation. Over 90% of her edits since 2006 appear to be on the subject of TM. Opinions may differ as to the exact reason for the discussion at Talk:Transcendental Meditation going in circles for so long, but people with a TM affiliation have been working on these articles for years. (The talk page has 37 archives of up to 200Kb each). If the TM people were ever going to create a modus vivendi with the regular editors, it ought to be visible by now. I think that a set of bans from talk pages may be necessary if we ever want these articles to converge. Though COI-affected people can work well with others on some articles, it doesn't seem to be working out here. The least arbitrary way of selecting people for a talk page ban would be to pick those admonished in the Arbcom case or those sanctioned at AE since then. That list would be:
I recommend that we impose a ban of these editors from the topic of Transcendental Meditation for six months, on all pages of Misplaced Pages including article and user talk, except for legitimate and necessary dispute resolution concerning their own edits. The ban would be evaluated after six months to see if their absence improved the editing climate or the quality of the articles. EdJohnston (talk) 05:48, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
- Bit draconian, that. Your logic, if I understand it correctly, is "lets just ban everyone who has gotten in trouble before" - hardly justice for those who are trying to mend their ways and have done nothing wrong since their last transgression was sanctioned. Am I missing something? KillerChihuahuaAdvice 12:33, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
- I fully agree with that and, I might add, the same flawed logic appears to be at work in a number of other recent cases.
- If people want somebody to be topic banned, I want to see a pattern of recent misconduct, not just one diff. I can't see why this case would merit any more than a warning. Gatoclass (talk) 13:20, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
- I think we should give Littleolive oil some more time to respond. Otherwise, I agree with KillerChihuahua about the bans proposed by EdJohnston. PhilKnight (talk) 15:47, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
- Will Beback has also asked for some more time to prepare his case. I have moved his comment to his own section above. Gatoclass (talk) 16:52, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
- As currently presented, I agree that EdJohnston's proposed bans sweep way too broadly. T. Canens (talk) 11:26, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
- I would prefer that the much broader concerns be dealt with in a separate AE.--Mkativerata (talk) 19:26, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Edith Sirius Lee
Statement by Edith Sirius Lee
In all the diffs presented, I am only referring to content (in sources) or to edits that editors have done, including edits that undid a structure that took a long time to establish. There is no direct attack on an editor. I do not usually directly attack the POV of editors. I did it in some other diffs, but I apologized after. I do not know Doc James, but I am pretty sure he is a nice person. We just disagree on content. If I do my own self critic, I would say that I can be too direct when I contradict other editors in a content dispute using logics, which could even be wrong some times. It is often not well taken. I believe though that I am improving. Edith Sirius Lee (talk) 18:36, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
- I should add that I am told that my English grammar is not always easy to read. This cannot help. I will try to improve that also. Edith Sirius Lee (talk) 16:07, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
Result concerning Edith Sirius Lee
Gilabrand
Blocked for one week. |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Request concerning Gilabrand
I added that Migdal Oz is a "settlement" in the "West bank", and removed "Israel" since it is located in the West Bank and not in Israel: , Gilabrand reverts my edits, she removes that its a "settlement" and located in the "West bank":. She also says in the edit summary "remove original research by POV editor" And as can be seen at the talkpage she did not discuss her revert as she is obligated to do. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 23:19, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
Discussion concerning GilabrandStatement by GilabrandComments by others about the request concerning Gilabrand
The example cited by SD appears to be a clear breach of the sanction. It is over a week old, but a glance at Gilabrand's contributions history reveals several other such breaches. For instance, on Dead Sea, at 21.40, 2 December (edit summary "Undid revision 400189530 by 213.21.80.61"; on Kibbutz at 14.42, 2 December (edit summary "(editorializing & unsourced trivia deleted"); on Sderot at 16.19, 1 December (edit summary "do not delete sourced information and replace it with an advocacy site like palestineremembered"); on Iran-Israel relations at 15.44, 1 December (edit summary "Undid revision 399926899 by Jim Fitzgerald"); on Yarkon Park at 13.34, 1 December (edit summary "restore to last good version before Deanb edit-warring"). In none of these did Gilabrand discuss this, as required, at the talk page. This is serial breach of a clear sanction. RolandR (talk)
Result concerning Gilabrand
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Marokwitz
Request concerning Marokwitz
- User requesting enforcement
SlimVirgin 17:19, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
Marokwitz (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Sanction violated
Violation of 1RR (two reverts within 10 hours; different material involved); Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles
- Diffs that violate it
- Version reverted to: 11:27 Nov 25, added to the lead "known by it's Hebrew name, Lod"
- 1st revert: 05:14 Dec 5, added to the lead "known by they Hebrew names Lod and Ramla".
- Version reverted to: 05:37 Nov 27, added "In 2005, Israeli Historians Alon Kadish and Avraham Sela criticized the 'Arab and Israeli revisionist historiography' of the Lydda events, and argued that the expulsion was not premeditated, and that the decision for expulsion was made during heavy fighting and unexpected military circumstances. The further wrote that there is no first-hand evidence that a massacre took place, and said there is 'severe doubt' over whether a massacre actually took place in the al-'Umari Mosque."
- 2nd revert: 15:04 Dec 5, added "Kadish and Sela criticized the 'Arab and Israeli revisionist historiography' of the Lydda events, and argued that there is no first-hand evidence that a massacre took place, and said there is 'severe doubt' over whether a massacre actually took place in the mosque.
- Diffs of prior warnings
That 1RR applies to the page is posted on talk. I also offered him the chance to self-revert.
- Enforcement action requested
Request a block for violation of 1RR
- Additional comments
Marowitz's edits were not back to back. He made the first revert, restoring the Hebrew name issue. . I removed it. Then he made the second revert, restoring the "severe doubt" that a massacre took place (the massace issue is already referred to elsewhere in the article; Marowitz may be editing the page without reading it).
The article is currently being prepared for FAC. There's an open peer review request, and editors are giving feedback at User talk:SlimVirgin/Lydda3—editors are commenting there because it's difficult to trust the mainspace version—and Marokwitz's manner of editing is not helping this process. Because his edits didn't stand, he has now added a POV tag, also not helpful.
Discussion concerning Marokwitz
- Statement by Marokwitz
First of all, I would like to thank SlimVirgin for making fun of my slight dyslexia, by choosing to present edits containing typing errors instead of the later versions in which I corrected them. Nice of you, SlimVirgin. You should be proud of yourself. I plead guilty to the typos. As for the rest, I am innocent, as I intend to demonstrate soon. Marokwitz (talk) 18:49, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
- I don't know whether you went back and fixed "they." You didn't fix "it's." I had to do it. This is the absurdity. You know I'm trying to get the page to FAC. But you add poor writing (and you say you know it might be problematic), and POV, and poor sources, and repetition, giving the impression that you're editing the article without having read it. I'm having to fix the writing of edits I disagree with, edits based on poor sources, because I can't revert, but I can't leave the writing as it is. That's why I'm having to keep an acceptable version of the page in my userspace, and uninvolved editors are having to review it on a user talk page. Not a good situation. SlimVirgin 19:36, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
- Please calm down a bit, SV. The world does not have to come to a stand because you want to take an article to FAC. Indeed, to that end, the best approach would be to edit in a collaberative manner with all editors, instead of running to some noticeboard on some technicality, especially when your version is not consistent with the consensus at the talk page. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 19:49, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
- What ought to happen when an article is going to FAC is that people allow it to be written, and reviewed by uninvolved editors. It can't get FA status with partisan editors adding POV and poor writing, and bible.org as a source. So if that kind of editing must be accepted at I/P articles, which is what you're arguing, you're effectively saying that those articles should never be allowed to get FA status. SlimVirgin 22:05, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
- I would advise you not to accuse editors of being "partisans", writing such things could get even the slim goddess of Misplaced Pages banned. You have no idea who I am or what my opinions are. Watch it.
- There is nothing intrinsically wrong with "adding POV", the whole idea of Misplaced Pages is to faithfully represent all commonly held POVs according to their prominence in reliable sources, and that includes some POVs not necessarily held by SlimVirgin. What you are doing ("removing POV") is actually much worse.
- "bible.org" is a perfectly reliable source when we are using it for citing the texts of one of the well known books and dictionaries contained on that site (for example, Hitchcock, Nave's, EBD, Smith's, ISBE, Strong's Greek & Hebrew Lexicon).
- If you think you are the only editor on Misplaced Pages capable of unbiased research, then god help us. Marokwitz (talk) 22:19, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
- Motion to dismiss by Marokwitz
Did I actually revert? Let's see. A few days ago I added reliably sourced material to the section "Lydda's defenses": :
In 2005, Israeli Historians Alon Kadish and Avraham Sela criticized the "Arab and Israeli revisionist historiography" of the Lydda events, and argued that the expulsion was not premeditated, and that the decision for expulsion was made during heavy fighting and unexpected military circumstances. The further wrote that there is no first-hand evidence that a massacre took place, and said there is "severe doubt" over whether a massacre actually took place in the al-'Umari Mosque.Less than 10 minutes later, SlimVirgin rephrased my words and placed them in a footnote, without discussion and with the following very cryptic edit summary : "((ec) + details)"
They argue that the deaths in Lydda occurred because a military battle for the town took place, not because of a massacre.Several days later, surprised to see that SlimVirgin decided the views of Kadish and Sela are only worth mentioning in a footnote, let alone without any explanation or discussion, I decided to add another, much shorter version of my text, this time to a different section where I felt balance was still needed, (The section "Israeli response to the shooting"), while keeping SlimVirgin's edit intact. I added the following:
Kadish and Sela criticized the "Arab and Israeli revisionist historiography" of the Lydda events, and argued that there is no first-hand evidence that a massacre took place, and said there is "severe doubt" over whether a massacre actually took place in the mosque.From Misplaced Pages:Edit warring:
"A "revert" means any edit (or administrative action) that reverses the actions of other editors, in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material."In other words, a "revert" would be me taking SlimVirgin's work and reversing it fully or partially.
However, I did not reverse any of SlimVirgin's edits, in whole or in part. I did not blatantly go and redo my edit. What I did is, added a new and different version of my text, to a wholly different area of the article, several days after the original edit, hoping that my new version would be good enough to reach consensus, and at the same time I did not modify or remove any of the work of SlimVirgin.
To summarize:
- In the above-mentioned edit, I did not reverse actions of other editors in whole or in part.
- I may have made a similar edit twice in two sections of the article, yet I don't recall any discretionary sanctions against being repetitive. I have every right to do so, as long as I'm not reversing other editors work.
My work is simply a standard case of collaborative editing, in which one editor gradually edits the words of another editor, in a non destructive fashion. SV's "extremist" interpretation of the policy, if accepted, would completely destroy the collaborative spirit of Misplaced Pages and simply scare editors away.
If some editor copyedits some text that I wrote and moves it to a footnote, according to the sanctions I'm not allowed to undo their edit (more than once per day). However, no policy states that I am forbidden from adding any remotely similar material sourced to Kadish and Sela somewhere else in the article.
Similarly, in the second case I am accused of "reverting", regarding the Hebrew name of Lydda - this was not a revert either, rather I modified the article based on new reliable sources that I found and added in that edit ( A cyclopædia of Biblical literature: Volume 2, by John Kitto, William Lindsay Alexander. p. 842, and Lod (Lydda), Israel: from its origins through the Byzantine period, 5600 B.C.E.-640 C.E., by Joshua J. Schwartz, 1991, p. 15), and following discussion on the talk page in which several editors participated and agreed with my edit, while SlimVirgin, the only editor to oppose my edit, eventually failed to respond. It's not a revert, it's something which SlimVirgin doesn't seem to care much about called "consensus".
I rest my case.
It should be noted that the present situation is that both my edits are now OUT of the article, despite quite a clear consensus in favor for their inclusion. I'm really quite a terrible "edit warrior", ain't I?
On a personal note, many editors are feeling that SlimVirgin is acting as if she owns the article, doing hundreds of edits and immediately reverting or changing every contribution by other editors. She is driving other editors away by her behavior. Just look at her edit history, and read the talk page of "her" personal essay, 1948 Palestinian exodus from Lydda and Ramle. Just a short quote from SlimVirgin, addressing me :
"I'm likely to remove the material you added today... We can't keep adding more details from particular perspectives, especially not in any of the background sections. ... You're welcome to oppose, but I need to shorten this, not lengthen it."She has recently harassed me on my talk page on another completely false allegation, just for daring to confront her tyrannical editing style.
- This is not the collaborative spirit of Misplaced Pages.
- This is not the conduct expected from an experienced administrator.
While it is not my style to engage in Wikilawyering and enforcement requests, I do believe that the result of this case should be a warning to SlimVirgin. She cannot try to scare and intimidate other editors way from "her" article; that is unacceptable.
I am completely certain of my innocence. It was not my intention to edit war, and my actions can hardly be considered edit warring by any definition. I value my integrity and reputation above all. As an active editor in often highly controversial areas, with over 10,000 edits in over four years, not once was I involved in any such arbitration case. It is extremely important for me to keep this clean record. I motion for this arbitration case to be dismissed. In case I am found guilty for edit warring and warned or banned - I hereby declare my intent to self-ban myself for an additional period of 7 days. 20:25, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
- You self-reverted, so it's over. If you'd done it when first requested, the report would have been unnecessary. What you did was revert to a previous version of yours that you knew had been removed recently (one revert), then when I removed it, you reverted to another previous version of yours, which you also knew had been removed recently. That was the second revert. With both those edits, you knowingly reversed the recent removal of that material. You're only allowed to do that once in 24 hours on I/P articles. SlimVirgin 22:11, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
- No, it's not over. I want a ruling to show that I'm being falsely accused. I will not accept my reputation being ruined for engaging in completely good faith and positive editing. Marokwitz (talk) 22:33, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
- Comment by Brewcrewer
This appears to be much ado about nothing except drama mongering. I don't know the intricities of 1rr so I will avoid commenting on the specific, but I told both Slim Virgin and Marokwitz that I along with other editors on the article talk page agreed with Marokwitz's edit and had he self reverted I would have reverted his self-revert. I guess that takes on new absurdity levels, but its just another day in the I-A conflict.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 17:36, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
- Comment by BorisG
This looks like a minor technical infringement made in good faith. SV is trying to own the article. I can understand this, given their massive contribution to this article and the FAC nomination, but refusing to engage in consensus building and accusing all other editors (who are trying to make the article more balanced) of being partisans etc is not helpful. I urge all editors here to work towards consensus. - BorisG (talk) 01:24, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
Result concerning Marokwitz
- I've left him a note giving him the opportunity to self-revert his most recent edit. It seems to be a 1RR violation, but it could easily have been made in good faith, so I'm willing to make any action proportional to his response. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 17:47, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
Piotrus
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Request concerning Piotrus
- User requesting enforcement
- Offliner (talk) 07:47, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Piotrus (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Sanction or remedy that this user violated
- Misplaced Pages:EEML#Modified_by_motion_3
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
- Warning by Coren (talk · contribs) "I also agree in principle with a narrowing of the topic ban, but that would be accompanied with a stern warning that trying to toe the line and argue about where it lies is the swiftest way to have it return"
- Warning by SirFozzie (talk · contribs) "as for the narrowing, I agree with Brad, and will at least be willing to narrow the topic ban, with the caveat that it's going to be very quickly reapplied if there are future issues"
- Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)
- Block and reinstatement of full EE topic ban
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
- Offliner (talk) 07:47, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Piotrus
Statement by Piotrus
Comments by others about the request concerning Piotrus
Result concerning Piotrus
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
Martintg
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Request concerning Martintg
- User requesting enforcement
- Offliner (talk) 08:41, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Martintg (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Sanction or remedy that this user violated
- Misplaced Pages:EEML#Modified_by_open_motion_6
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- Removes the term extermination camp from the article The Holocaust in Estonia
- Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
- Martintg was recently blocked for a week for a similar violation, see here
- Warning by Future Perfect at Sunrise (talk · contribs)
- Warning by SirFozzie (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)
- Block and reinstatement of full EE topic ban
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
- As I said here, I believe Martintg has been violating his topic ban continuously from the very beginning. He still shows no signs of stopping despite his recent 1 week block. Offliner (talk) 08:41, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Martintg
Statement by Martintg
Offliner states "I believe Martintg has been violating his topic ban continuously from the very beginning", surely that is a gross exaggeration as my recent edit history shows. I guess what this AE complaint demonstrates is that Offliner is closely stalking my edits, with little over two weeks until the expiry of my topic ban and over two months since his previous complaint on AE, the sum total of Offliner's complaint is two relatively minor edits (actually since they are consecutive they would constitute a single edit). Surely if I was violating my "topic ban continuously from the very beginning" there would be more diffs.
The first edit I removed the text "(Nazi terminology about 'extermination camp')'" as it seemed out of context compared to the other sections and after checking both Nazi terminology and extermination camp and not finding anything about the term "Arbeits- und Erziehungslager" that seemed relevant, and it wasn't sourced. There is a "cleanup" template at the top of the page after all. The second consecutive edit was simply to correct a link to the actual article .
The Holocaust in Estonia is an article about a terribly heinous crime perpetrated by Nazis and their collaborators against Jewish people in Estonia during World War 2, there is simply no dispute about this in Estonia. So I am not sure how this would constitute an instance of a "national, cultural, or ethnic disputes within Eastern Europe". Estonia is probably the least anti-semitic of all the Eastern/Central European countries. In the pre-war period when virulent anti-Semitism was growing in certain Eastern/Central European countries, Estonia had instituted some of the most progressive policies in regard to her Jewish citizens, enacting laws that protected Jewish cultural heritage in that country, to the extent that the Jewish National Endowment Keren Kajamet presented the Estonian government with a certificate of gratitude for this achievement, see Jews_in_Estonia#Jewish_autonomy_in_independent_Estonia. Just recently Estonia (along with Britain, Finland, France, Netherlands, Norway and Sweden) protested against antisemitism in Lithuania . As I said, there is no dispute about this in Estonia.
However, that being said, if the admins here think this is an issue here I will voluntarily refrain from editing any articles regarding the Jewish people of Estonia for the remaining two weeks of my topic ban. --Martin (talk) 13:00, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning Martintg
Result concerning Martintg
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.