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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Timotheus Canens (talk | contribs) at 22:40, 8 December 2010 (→Result of the appeal by Cptnono: this applies to both parties). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

• WP:AE

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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Cptnono

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found in this 2010 ArbCom motion. According to that motion, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user

Cptnono (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Cptnono (talk) 22:31, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Sanction being appealed

Interaction ban with Nableezy. Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Shuki, logged at ]>

Administrator imposing the sanction

Timotheus Canens (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator

The appealing editor is asked to notify the administrator who made the enforcement action of this appeal, and then to replace this text with a diff of that notification. The appeal may not be processed otherwise. If a block is appealed, the editor moving the appeal to this board should make the notification.

Statement by Cptnono

The interaction ban is based on the comment "Then you need to explain why you disregarded the admins suggestion on how to implement this. Stop going out of your way to start trouble." That was an attack in the very broadest definition. I do understand that "going out of your way" could be considered mean. I was pleading with editors to use the centralized discussion and the other comments made show this: The centralized discussion was unraveling and it was a huge concern since we were so close to getting it figured out. In hindsight, I should have taken a step back since I was only feeding the fire in my attempt.

Nableezy and I do not have a good history and there is no question that I disagree with his behavior. That leads me to what I feel is a very important part of my appeal. I was so frustrated with different editor's (especially Nableezy's which is one reason I understand where the admins are coming from) behavior that I made the mistake of being grossly uncivil in the topic area. It was inappropriate and I received a short block and it was made clear that those comments were not appropriate. Just before and shortly after I received multiple comments from others expressing that this was a path they did not like seeing me go down. The block and those comments was a reminder to me of how to act. PhilKnight expressed on his talk page that he felt this interaction ban would be appropriate based on my history with Nableezy. I have already made the decision to show a renewed effort in any interaction. I understand that my single comment was off but it is not a serious violation according to the precedent set. I of course would be willing to go even farther with efforts to be civil if this appeal is successful based on the comments by the deciding admins. I feel that I learned from my past mistakes and that this interaction ban is an overreaction to that comment based on the poor history. If anyone else would have made that comment I do not think it would have raised eyebrows. However I do understand that we cannot forget my editing history.

@ LessHeard vanU: My intent if this is not successful would be to present evidence of better interaction in the topic area after sometime (3/6/12mos depending on how it goes). Kind of like WP:OFFER. However, I do not believe that is necessary. Although the vindicating myself is both needed and interesting, I would prefer not to do it with this over my head. Cptnono (talk) 23:12, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

@Timotheus Canens: I know it is annoying for you as well but I am the one receiving limitations on my interactions which I feel will cause more of a burden than a solution. Didn't mean to make my appeal too long.Cptnono (talk) 23:37, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

I see now. I'm actually surprised you aren't annoyed!Cptnono (talk) 23:51, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

@Sean: That hypothetical doesn't have any bearing on this and the comments made in the above discussion and the admin's talk pages show that it is not relevant. I would rather such conjecture on such possible scenarios not impact any decision. Even if it were to apply, my concern is not for any other editors in the topic area but my own. I'm not appealing this based on any worry of games being played or false feelings of me needing to police the topic area. My concern is that I am inhibited for reasoning that was already taken care of (assuming my one comment was not enough to warrant such action). I should be able to respond to comments at the centralized discussion. I shouldn't have to worry if an edit I am amending is that of someone I am banned from interacting with (or if going to talk as I would often prefer to do s a problem). Those are just two examples of what ifs and we know there will be more. Being better than I was is on me and no one else.Cptnono (talk) 06:43, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

@George: Thanks, dude. You really should be commenting on the FAN and not here. George summarized my thoughts. And since this is my appeal I do want to point out that if more editors were like him (including myself) this would be a better topic area. I also should mention that although we sometimes come down on different sides argument wise in this topic area, we have worked over at the Sounders project so there is definitely some good history. I hope this does not discredit his words but wanted to make sure that everything was extra open.Cptnono (talk) 06:49, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

@Philknight: The last AE was incivility but none of the quotes were on Nableezy's page or directed towards him. It was inappropriate (that is why I was sanctioned) but should not have any impact on this unless my comment is considered completely out of line. Cptnono (talk) 20:43, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

In regards to the quotes, that had nothing to do with this AE. Cptnono (talk) 20:53, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm done groveling over this. Close it out. Nableezy already expressed reservations with this interaction ban before it was put in place. Tiamut also has. Other editors expressed concerns with it. I'll let editors see the various talk pages on their own. In my opinion, I am being restricted based on previous transgressions. The two admins rejecting this appeal were involved in the AE and have been dealing with the topic area so I assume they are fed up with it. You can correct me if I am wrong but it seems obvious. There is reasoning to be skeptical and I admit that but I am sick of this. I doubt it will matter much anyways. See you in three months for the request to lifted since my interactions will realistically be improved. It isn't my job to police the topic area since admins fail to and if I have to be extra careful in my interactions then so be it. That centralized discussion that I am harping about? I started it. It rubbed editors on the Israeli side the wrong way and got an edit very similar to what was being reverted over into the mainspace. You're welcome.Cptnono (talk) 06:46, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

@Timotheus Canens: Interesting thought but I am fine without any changes. My comment was not bad enough for an interaction ban and I really am not happy with any action even if it is less. Also, my comments were pretty light in the last AE until Cla68 brought me up. If editors are going to be part of the community they need to be scrutinized by the community. So an interaction ban is fine by me. It isn't like I could comment on Nableezy's talk page since he made it clear he would disregard it. I couldn't bring it here since it was bad but not bad enough to start the drama. So what is the difference now? I can't talk to him for awhile? Fine. I'll have to be extra careful which gets under my skin but I would prefer to just drop it before it turns into more drama.Cptnono (talk) 02:46, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

@Cla68:You didn't say anything until I changed your edit and notified you of your mistake so I have a hard time believing you were that offended. If you were there is no judgement from me about it. It would just be a coincidence that was hard to ignore. I get your point about scaring of people new to the topic, though. It isn't the first time I have heard people mention it. Yes, a more civil tone is needed. But this might be a better discussion for my talk page or the collaboration page.Cptnono (talk) 05:36, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

@Timotheus Canens and Gatoclass: So in the future, "see the centralized discussion for this" is better than telling someone they are causing problems. I still believe the request was needed and that there was a valid concern but agree the tone needed improving, though. Feel free to close this out. We are on the same page it looks like and can figure it out in three months.Cptnono (talk) 07:03, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

@AGK and Gatoclass: You guys are still discussing this? (oops, this was removed right before this comment was made) It was close to being archived. I don't mind discussing my appeal more even though it is obvious that it isn't going anywhere. It really isn't even that much of a hindrance with Nableezy being blocked. I hope that my request for review will still receive the appropriate attention even though Nableezy's block is not set to expire until a month after I plan on making it. AGK doesn't look like he read it fully since he assumed he was involved and made the additional proposal. I do see where you are coming from anyways, AGK. But you have to understand that sometimes it seems (incorrectly most of he time) best to say something on the talk page. For example, asking Nableezy to see the centralized discussion was completely appropriate. I haven't seen anyone dispute that. I also have not seen anyone do anything but ignore that this interaction ban was a reaction to past transgressions. So I am fine with it knowing that overall I made the appropriate steps (getting the centralized discussion going and stuck to) but also realizing that telling someone they are being problematic can ruffle feathers. Tone makes a big difference so I can work on that. However, even though I can fix my interactions, I cannot takeaway what I did a year ago.Cptnono (talk) 08:27, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Timotheus Canens

I think it is pointless unnecessary for me to add to the voluminous discussion right above on this page. My rationale for the sanctions is explained in the above discussion and on Cptnono's talk page, and I incorporate it by reference here.

@LHvU: The intent is to make it indefinite for now, with review in a few months (three months sounds good), or sooner if the situation deteriorates, when it would likely be either lifted or changed into a topic ban. T. Canens (talk) 23:31, 29 November 2010 (UTC) Modified, T. Canens (talk) 23:48, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

@Gatoclass: It's not victimless. A hostile editing environment drives away new users, even if the old-timers got used to it. T. Canens (talk) 16:08, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

I have thought a bit more about this. The problem here is that discussions become unnecessarily personalized, in large part because people are throwing in conduct complaints in content discussions. This, in turn, creates a hostile editing environment and fosters further battleground behavior. I'm open to replacing this particular set of interaction bans with something similar to the restriction AGK imposed here, but I want to get some more comments first. T. Canens (talk) 23:34, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Statement by (involved editor 1)

Statement by (involved editor 2)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Cptnono

Statement by LessHeard vanU

At the very least could there be some clarification on the length of the topic ban, it apparently being indefinite presently? The strictures on being able to edit certain topic area's may be sufficient to promote among the parties a desire to interact more appropriately, and I would urge that some further consideration may be given to permitting an appeal to lift these sanctions after a defined period (6 months?) if Cptnono's appeal here is unsuccessful and the tariff is determined to be either indefinite or 1 year or more. (I realise this is not discussing the appeal directly, but I am too involved to be acting as an admin on this page but wanted to address some issues and make suggestions.) LessHeard vanU (talk) 23:06, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Statement by George

I think that this was a bit of a knee-jerk reaction. Cptnono was blocked for three hours for incivility only five days ago, largely due to interactions with Nableezy. I've seen them express frustration in interacting with Nableezy since then, but haven't seen much in the way of incivility, and I'm not in favor of someone being punished twice for the same offense. The comment Cptnono made to Nableezy in this discussion was borderline uncivil at best, and comparable to the tone of interactions between Wehwalt and SandyGeorgia in this discussion (I'm not commenting on either of those editors, nor suggesting an interaction ban between them, just noting the similarity in the tone in a conversation involving an administrator.) Given Cptnono's expressed understanding of the issue with the tone of their recent commentary, including the comment that led to this ban, and their professed willingness to try to improve on it, this sanction strikes me as more punitive then preventative. Having worked with both editors, I believe they have the ability to contribute and discuss constructively, even with each other, and this interaction ban will create annoying hurdles for both editors that I don't view as necessary at this point. I would suggest either removing it entirely, or reducing it to something like one week, with a warning that future, problematic interactions between them will result in a longer interaction ban. ← George 00:17, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Question from Sean.hoyland

What happens if one editor accepts (=takes no action to appeal) an interaction ban and the other one doesn't by the way ? I have no idea whether that applies in this case but I'm just asking. Sean.hoyland - talk 06:28, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

I didn't see the discussion on the admins page. Nevermind then. Sean.hoyland - talk 09:50, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Hi Sean, having just one half of an interaction ban in force would be a recipe for disaster so, I guess that either both sanctions are in force or neither. PhilKnight (talk) 20:00, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Staement by BorisG

I think this sanction interprets NPA and civility policy way too broadly. I believe it is profoundly wrong because if we continue on this path we will have no way to have an argument between editors. Sharp debates are a useful and necessary part of collaboration. - BorisG (talk) 08:35, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Statement by PhilKnight

Obviously, I still support this restriction. From my perspective there's little difference between making it 3 months in duration, or reviewing after 3 months. In terms of why it's necessary, in addition to the comments by Cla68 in the original discussion, which relate to the thread linked by Cptnono, there have been 2 reports has been a report at WP:ANI in the last few weeks concerning Nableezy placing less than favorable quotes by Cptnono on his user page. In these circumstances, I think an interaction ban is worth trying. PhilKnight (talk) 20:07, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Gatoclass

I opposed the interaction bans when they were first proposed. Since then I have found WP:IBAN and it appears to me that such bans are not quite as onerous as I assumed, since the editors concerned can still edit the same pages but are prohibited from reverting each other's edits or commenting directly to or about one another. Also, PhilKnight has proposed a review after three months, a ban subject to periodic review would certainly be a lot less objectionable to me. However, before commenting further I would like to hear what Nableezy thinks. With an appeal of this nature, I think we should hear from both involved parties before making a decision. Gatoclass (talk) 06:26, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure if Nableezy intends to comment here or not, but I think he made a good point on his talk page, which is, if two editors are not unduly offended by each other's comments, and are prepared to continue working together, why should admins step in to slap an interaction ban on them? It does seem like a victimless crime. So I think if Nableezy is prepared to continue working with Cptnono and vice versa, there's a good case for upholding this appeal. Gatoclass (talk) 14:18, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Well I'm sorry Cla, but I just don't buy the argument about hypothetical noobs being "intimidated" by a few sharp exchanges between others. In fact the opposite is typically the case - it's the noobs who need to learn to tone down their responses in accordance with policy. But if a user is so thin-skinned that they are going to allow themselves to be "intimidated" by a little friction between other editors, they are unlikely to last five minutes on Misplaced Pages in any case - let alone in a contentious topic area. Gatoclass (talk) 05:29, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

In regards to T. Canen's suggestion per AGK of instant blocks for comments on contributor rather than content, I am opposed to such blanket methods. While comments on contributor are usually unhelpful and should be avoided, sometimes it is necessary to call someone out for their behaviour, and sometimes that helps get discussion moving again. Personal attacks are more problematic, but not everyone agrees on what constitutes such an attack.

In any case, I don't think blocking is an effective counter for such conduct, and worse, it leaves a permanent blot on someone's record that can then be used as an excuse for an indef ban. The bottom line is that if one cracks down too hard on civility, one leaves the field to the civil POV pusher who is usually the one doing the most damage to content. Gatoclass (talk) 06:52, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

I don't think you understand how this particular variety of sanction works. The point of the blanket approach is that, whilst we should always call somebody on inappropriate content, we should never call them on the article talk page. AGK 12:30, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

You're right, I don't follow at all. Would you mind elaborating? Gatoclass (talk) 13:40, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

The idea is to separate discussions on content from discussions on conduct. Discussions on content, which we are primarily concerned with when we worry about the attractiveness of a topic area to new editors, belong on the article talk page. Discussions on conduct is good and all, but they belong at other venues - e.g., ANI, AE, RFC/U, whatever. You can comment on the contributor all you want - within reason, of course - but you can't do it on an article talk page. T. Canens (talk) 17:58, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Okay, well I can't endorse that notion either. We shouldn't be encouraging editors to run to dispute resolution every time someone makes a comment about their conduct. That's just an invitation to gaming the system. Gatoclass (talk) 06:54, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

User talk is fine too, if DR is unneeded; the point is that conduct matters should stay outside article talk as much as possible. T. Canens (talk) 08:12, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

When we have accusations of bad faith flying around, we've no problem but to make users take their grievances through the correct channels. Responsible editors do that anyway, in virtually all cases. Why should those who edit in troubled topic areas be any different? I genuinely don't see what your objection to this is. We're basically enforcing a utopian editing environment; frankly, I think that's better than letting things turn to chaos (as they have in many articles), because even if the end result does fall short of perfect, at least it's a start.

Making comments about user conduct in the middle of a content discussion is never appropriate. This sanction simply makes that enforcable. Win-win. And, it's almost ungamable, because people learn the rules on this one super fast—and the result is a more harmonious editing environment, and one in which the actual content can be discussed without lots of background noise and shouting. AGK 21:39, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Well said. Cla68 (talk) 03:42, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Comment by AGK

As the administrator who initially remedied the interaction ban in question, I oppose the appeal. I am not convinced that Cptnono can interact constructively with Nableezy. I would be inclined instead to put everybody on a level footing, and levy an interaction ban with Nableezy. They shouldn't be bringing user conduct into article content discussions in the first place. AGK 21:48, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

• I also wonder why I was not notified about the existence of this appeal. Have we forgotten process and courtesy, amongst all the drama that this board today faces? AGK 21:52, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

• I'm fairly sure I imposed this interaction ban...See Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive74#Result concerning Shuki. T. Canens (talk) 01:39, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Cla68

Gatoclass, it doesn't matter if Nableezy and Cptnono aren't offended by each others' comments. That article talk page is publicly viewable. The over-the-top hostile tone of their interaction with each other could very well intimidate other editors, especially new editors, from wanting to get involved in the content discussion. That kind of discourse on an article talk page is unacceptable, and both of them should know better. Cla68 (talk) 22:46, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Result of the appeal by Cptnono

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• Proposed, per T. Canens: that, in response to the primary concerns and to action this request, Nableezy be sanctioned like this. Secondary concerns remaining include: whether Cptnono and/or Nableezy should be topic banned in addition, or whether the proposed sanction, coupled with Cptnono's ban on interaction with Nableezy, will remedy the problems that exist with their conduct; and whether additional sanctions of other users are required. AGK 21:43, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

What? This is an appeal, not a new case. The options are to either uphold the appeal or reject it. It's not an opportunity for you to pile on yet more sanctions to a user who has already been topic banned. Gatoclass (talk) 10:20, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

• All right, given Nableezy's subsequent four-month topic ban for an unrelated matter, the interaction ban no longer appears to serve any purpose, and requiring another appeal in three months is rather pointless. Accordingly, I will lift this set of bans. Cptnono (talk · contribs) and Nableezy (talk · contribs) are reminded to comment on content, and not user conduct, when commenting on an article talk page, and to direct complaints concerning user conduct to the appropriate venue. They are warned that future infractions may lead to sanctions. T. Canens (talk) 22:36, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Littleolive oil and Edith Sirius Lee 2

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Littleolive oil and Edith Sirius Lee 2

User requesting enforcement

Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 08:06, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Littleolive oil (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Edith Sirius Lee 2 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated

"that editor repeatedly or seriously violates the behavioural standards or editorial processes of Misplaced Pages in connection with these articles."

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

In this dif from Olive she refers to directs quotes from JAMA as "your personal biases". This is against WP:CIVIL, WP:DUE and the current ArbCom remedies. She has current restrictions in place here .

In these difs from Edith and my views are referred to as "paranoid" A warning was given here for this previous edit where she states "Doc James destroyed years of work". This user has subsequently changed user names to User:Edith Sirius Lee 2

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)

Topic area ban for Edith, Warning for Olive

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

This users have an admitted WP:COI in that she admits to practicing TM. They edit this subject area primarily or exclusively.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Olive here

Edith

Discussion concerning Littleolive oil

Statement by Littleolive oil

Mainspace edits per "They edit this subject area primarily or exclusively."

Clarifications and context per the TM arbitration:

• All editors on the list created by EdJohnston, as well as Jmh649 (Doc James) and Will Beback were parties in the TM arbitration.
• All editors were included in the decisions and remedies
• After months of deliberation and multiple pages of evidence, no single editor, with one exception, and no so-called group was found to be any more or less at blame than any other.
• No COI was found/named in the arbitration
• The TM arbitration did not in any way identify editors as belonging to "groups", but treated editors as individuals.
• The TM arbitration discretionary sanction statement cited by Doc James, says a warning is required (bold). The full statement says:

Any uninvolved administrator may, in his or her own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor editing Transcendental meditation or other articles concerning Transcendental meditation and related biographies of living people, broadly defined, if, after a warning, that editor repeatedly or seriously violates the behavioural standards or editorial processes of Misplaced Pages in connection with these articles.

- Per the TM arbitration I was not warned, nor does one strongly worded statement constitute," repeatedly or seriously violates the behavioural standards or editorial processes."

Statement:

My comment in the TM talk page was not a response to the JAMA article. It was a response to Doc James' history of personalizing comments, lack of assuming good faith, and hisj insistence on editing on a body of research from a singular point of view. Its clear from this thread,that I wasn’t sure what James was referring to. My intent was not to offend another editor but to express serious concern to an editor who has a history of unilateral editing, (even in the face of an RfC, where he split content off the main article including the TM research, on the second day of an RfC, while another solution had been suggested by an uninvolved editor, in the face of editor disagreement, effectively preempting the RfC) . However, the comment was strongly worded, and since it offended I sincerely apologize and will strike the statement.

On three previous occasions I have asked James to assume good faith:

Cmt:Warning:

Cmt:Warning:

Cmt:Warning:

Concerns I have with Doc James' editing behaviour

Personalizing comments on the TM article talk page:

• "Well it seems that TM publishes a huge amount which they like to brag about little of the work has any real scientific substance to it."

• "We do know that peoples who lively-hood and identity depend on TM disagree with a major report that found it either ineffective… "

• "You will need to convince Misplaced Pages editors who are not practitioners of TM the validity of your argument…."

• "Yes the three of you agree but you also all practice TM. Now please get some outside input."

• "You and a number of editors who practice TM keep changing it. There have been no attempts by those who practice TM to get outside supporting opinions. It seems that only those who practice TM agree with the wording presented."

• "Some have a desire to present the topic in a non NPOV manner with TM meaning only the technique in line with statements of official TM material.."

• Many more diffs if wanted or needed

Not assuming good faith:

• "I have the impression of efforts to suppress information regarding the TM movement with a desire to give greater emphasis to the technique."

• "I personally see KB list as just a specific selection of sites to support his POV."

Misrepresentation/POV of research/Deletion sourced content on research:

(Violations of TM arbitration)

• Deletes material from a 2007 book published by McGrawHill Medical. The material was sourced to a chapter authored by three scientists from the National Institutes of Health and an assistant professor of clinical psychiatry at Columbia University Medical Center.

• Removes material sourced to a 2008 research review in BMC Psychiatry and a 2006 research review in the journal Ethnicity and Disease.

• At the same time, he discredits research on TM (and violates WP:MEDRS) by quoting a 1985 book on religion that claims "that the original findings had been false or exaggerated."

Comment:

This is the second time James has brought me to AE on charges that are misrepresentations. I was taken to AE, restricted by Future Perfect At Sunrise and the case was closed before I could make a comment. I was restricted based on making two reverts is two months. Neither of these requests is right or fair, nor serves the time of editors who come to these AE/N in any capacity.

I want to make a point very clear per the comment by Edith Sirius Lee. I find these attack situations ugly and distasteful. I commented on James because I had to, not because I wanted to, in efforts to explain why the statement he brought to this page was not an assumption of bad faith but a recognition of a position that is not enabling collaborative discussion, and that follows three previous requests to move on to discussion that focuses on the edits not the editors. My preference is to try to work contention out on a talk page.

Both Will and James know that the Arbitration stipulated an editor must be given a warning prior to asking for enforcement. Yet neither extended a warning for what they considered to be a problematic comment, and both suggested sanctions based on one comment. While I stand by my comment, I don't ever wish to offend anyone, and I would have quickly removed or struck the comment had I seen that It was offensive rather than what I intended it to be, a strongly worded request for an editor to look at his many-times, stated position and to try to delineate his personal opinions from his editing.

The past AE sanction was false and unfair, and is being used here too, as it has in other places to suggest,"this is a problematic editor so lets just cut to the chase and hang her."

Like all editors I'm sure I've made mistakes in my editing, but creating one false sanction on top of another is creating a lie about me and what I do. I assume this is not what James or Will meant to do, but this is, with out a doubt, what is happening. (I'll add diffs)

As an editor, I am doing everything I can to support a collegial, collaborative editing environment, and to move away from convoluted discussion, that includes actively helping to draft a recent RfC suggestion section, asking a neutral outside admin. to come in to gauge consensus when there was disagreement, applying for two mediations, and starting the preliminaries for a third.

To Killer Chihuahua: Thank you for your comment. I think what you say is an important statement for all of us on any contentious article. Don't run to a "parent" to admonish, but keep working at being collaborative which means on the most fundamental level, treating others with respect. My style is to avoid incivility, but I edited too late when I was tired and my frustration caught up with me. So you words are very well taken. And I'll try to keep my hands off the keyboard when I'm tired.(olive (talk) 18:16, 8 December 2010 (UTC))

Comment by Will Beback

One of the principles from the arbitration concerned assuming good faith:

• Decorum and assumptions of good faith
• Misplaced Pages users are expected to behave reasonably, calmly, and courteously in their interactions with other users. Unseemly conduct, such as personal attacks, incivility, assumptions of bad faith, harassment, disruptive point-making, and gaming the system, is prohibited. Making unsupported accusations of such misconduct by other editors, particularly where this is done in repeatedly or in a bad-faith attempt to gain an advantage in a content dispute, is also unacceptable.

The remedies instruct uninvolved admins to the enforce the listed principles:

• Guidance for uninvolved administrators
• Uninvolved administrators are invited to monitor the articles in the area of conflict to enforce compliance by editors with, in particular, the principles outlined in this case. Enforcing administrators are instructed to focus on fresh and clear-cut matters arising after the closure of this case rather than on revisiting historical allegations.

If uninvolved admins think this is a clear-cut case of assuming bad faith then it would be appropriate to enforce compliance using the discretionary sanctions.   Will Beback  talk  09:29, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

(Moved from admins section): I was caught by surprise by this filing, but I believe there is relevant evidence to present here. I think the best thing would be to put this case on hold for a few days to collect and present that material before making a determination. Or, to withdraw it and re-post it shortly.   Will Beback  talk  14:00, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Edith Sirius Lee

Is this officially an AE about Fladrif, TimidGuy and me as well? Since the issue is the lack of progression at the content level, should not admins consider the attitude of all involved editors toward consensus at the content level. @Tijfo098, the adjective "paranoid" was qualifying content (in sources), not editors. Also, the "independently done" is about content. TimidGuy also shared the same opinion about the "independently done". It is just a content dispute. Edith Sirius Lee (talk) 14:23, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning Littleolive oil

Gadzooks, someone please give that poor talkpage a break from the endless hair-splittingly circular arguments and misrepresentation of sources by the proponents (mostly). TM is a form of alternative medicine, so I consider myself WP:INVOLVED despite not having edited there. - 2/0 (cont.) 16:46, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

• I would like to see more than that one dif. One dif does not a pattern make. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 18:27, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Tijfo098

Selective quotation from Talk:Transcendental Meditation#An medical article looking at cost and adverse effects:

Olive: "You clearly are attempting to present the pejorative view." DocJames: "Some people who practice TM says it allows them to fly and have eternal health." Olive: "You are conflating your personal bias with use of sources."

While observing the proportions, this situation appears not dissimilar from that of User:Destinero, who while right about the core science issue related to LGBT parenting, nevertheless chooses the most strident language to proclaim it, and actually manages to support his choice of words with citations (usually page xx out of a long amicus brief of affidavit by a major researcher or science organization), and hardly ever agrees to a compromise on the language regardless of what language other major science orgs use. Ironically, Destinero is the one usually dragged to admin boards for this; ANI, because there was no arbitration case on that topic.

To conclude, there may be POV pushing at work here, but it doesn't seem to me from that discussion that it's only from one side. Tijfo098 (talk) 19:44, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

P.S.: I read some of the context for that thread above where Doc cites Rodney Stark (whose views on the world are highly correlated with his current employer) to say that "Yes I have found a few sources that share my main stream scientific point of view regarding TM and could find many more... " That was funny not in the least because the words "fiercely polemical" are in the first sentence of a NYT book review of one of Stark's books: . Tijfo098 (talk) 19:57, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Regading EdJohnston's 4-way ban proposal

After reading the unarchived talk page there, I think User:Edith Sirius Lee can be justifiably topic banned for repeatedly breaching decorum esp. calling skeptic views of TM "paranoid", and for general absurd lawyering e.g. regarding the word "independently", but I don't see evidence for banning the others listed by EdJohnson. I'm particularly bewildered by the suggestion to ban User:Fladrif as TM proponent; see Talk:Transcendental Meditation#Changes lead. Perhaps the algorithm invoked is red link user name => ban? Tijfo098 (talk) 06:56, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

I know its way off topic, but just to put in a good word for User:Fladrif,he stepped in first to rescue the Michael Welner BLP; he spent a lot of time with the sources too. Mr.Grantevans2 (talk) 02:26, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Fladrif

I am, like Will, rather taken by surprise by this filing, at least as to LittleOliveOil. I don't really see anything in the diffs cited by DocJames that would have justified a topic ban of olive as originally proposed. I see that he has amended his request for her to be for a formal warning only. I'm not convinced that even that is warranted at this time, at least not based on what has been presented so far. Fladrif (talk) 15:42, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Result concerning Littleolive oil

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

Littleolive oil was one of the parties in the June, 2010 Arbcom decision known as WP:ARBTM and I understand that she has a TM affiliation. Over 90% of her edits since 2006 appear to be on the subject of TM. Opinions may differ as to the exact reason for the discussion at Talk:Transcendental Meditation going in circles for so long, but people with a TM affiliation have been working on these articles for years. (The talk page has 37 archives of up to 200Kb each). If the TM people were ever going to create a modus vivendi with the regular editors, it ought to be visible by now. I think that a set of bans from talk pages may be necessary if we ever want these articles to converge. Though COI-affected people can work well with others on some articles, it doesn't seem to be working out here. The least arbitrary way of selecting people for a talk page ban would be to pick those admonished in the Arbcom case or those sanctioned at AE since then. That list would be:

I recommend that we impose a ban of these editors from the topic of Transcendental Meditation for six months, on all pages of Misplaced Pages including article and user talk, except for legitimate and necessary dispute resolution concerning their own edits. The ban would be evaluated after six months to see if their absence improved the editing climate or the quality of the articles. EdJohnston (talk) 05:48, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

Bit draconian, that. Your logic, if I understand it correctly, is "lets just ban everyone who has gotten in trouble before" - hardly justice for those who are trying to mend their ways and have done nothing wrong since their last transgression was sanctioned. Am I missing something? KillerChihuahuaAdvice 12:33, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

I fully agree with that and, I might add, the same flawed logic appears to be at work in a number of other recent cases.

If people want somebody to be topic banned, I want to see a pattern of recent misconduct, not just one diff. I can't see why this case would merit any more than a warning. Gatoclass (talk) 13:20, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

I think we should give Littleolive oil some more time to respond. Otherwise, I agree with KillerChihuahua about the bans proposed by EdJohnston. PhilKnight (talk) 15:47, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

Will Beback has also asked for some more time to prepare his case. I have moved his comment to his own section above. Gatoclass (talk) 16:52, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

As currently presented, I agree that EdJohnston's proposed bans sweep way too broadly. T. Canens (talk) 11:26, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

I would prefer that the much broader concerns be dealt with in a separate AE.--Mkativerata (talk) 19:26, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

After a discussion with two editors on my talk page, and noting the above dissents, I am withdrawing my proposal (above) for the topic bans of four editors. I agree with Mkativerata that the broader concerns could be addressed in a separate AE. The amount of data that was submitted for the present AE would not justify a wide-ranging response. This enforcement request is still asking for sanctions on Littleolive and Edith, and the admins should try to reach a decision there. EdJohnston (talk) 16:39, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

• I am not seeing evidence that Littleolive oil has committed any acts which meet the criteria of "seriously violates the behavioural standards or editorial processes" which need to be dealt with by this board. I am, however, seeing a good bit of minor incivility by all parties, especially ABF by Doc James as well as ABF and borderline NPA violations by Edith Sirius Lee (whose case is being dealt with separately, below) Suggest all parties go back to the talk page; work on civility issues and don't bring concerns here unless the evidence is more compelling. AE is not DR; nor is it for minor or borderline violations of standards of behavior. Good luck, and do try to treat one another with respect. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 17:40, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Discussion concerning Edith Sirius Lee

Statement by Edith Sirius Lee

In all the diffs presented, I am only referring to content (in sources) or to edits that editors have done, including edits that undid a structure that took a long time to establish. There is no direct attack on an editor. I do not usually directly attack the POV of editors. I did it in some other diffs, but I apologized after. I do not know Doc James, but I am pretty sure he is a nice person. We just disagree on content. If I do my own self critic, I would say that I can be too direct when I contradict other editors in a content dispute using logics, which could even be wrong some times. It is often not well taken. I believe though that I am improving. Edith Sirius Lee (talk) 18:36, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

I should add that I am told that my English grammar is not always easy to read. This cannot help. I will try to improve that also. Edith Sirius Lee (talk) 16:07, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Here is my reply to Fladrif's diffs. I agree that my communication skill in the diffs of Aug 10, Aug 13 and Nov 10 was inappropriate. In all cases, I was too argumentative, too direct and perhaps my grammar did not help. I could find more diffs of this kind against me. I think that I am improving. I already plaid guilty for that above, but they were not personal attacks. I certainly did not say I prefer "throwing careless insults around" over civility. It is JamesBWatson that is quoted here, not me - this is taken out of context.

As far as the Aug 17 diffs are concerned, the issue is that a discussion was misplaced: all editors, not only me, were warned to continue in the talk page of the RFA, not in the RFA itself, because it was disruptive. I already discussed the Oct 26 diff above. It was a comment that I made about James's edits, which "destroyed" a structure that took a long time to establish. It was not about James directly. Edith Sirius Lee (talk) 22:52, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

An important clarification. I plaid guilty of being too argumentative, etc., but it is not true that I did not improve recently. The six months ban is not necessary. As it is now, I feel I am helping the discussion among editors, making it more productive, not the opposite. Edith Sirius Lee (talk) 20:19, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Statements by others concerning EdithSiriusLee

Statement by Fladrif

In stark contrast to my surprise at a new AE being filed at this time as to LOO, I am not surprised at all that a new AE is necessary and appropriate as to ESL in all of his/her incarnations. ESL is a consistently disruptive SPA whose only role has been to inundate the talk pages with a relentless deluge of tendacity, obstinance and personal attacks, posing an insurmountable obstacle to the reaching of consensus and cooperation. Repeated warnings from involved and uninvolved editors and administrators, and even the imposition of sanctions at an earlier AE have done nothing to convince ESL to conform his/her editing to the requirements of Misplaced Pages policy and guidelines and the requirements of the TM ArbCom. I can think of nothing, short of a complete topic ban, that can address this persistent and apparently deliberate behavior. I was sorely tempted to start an AE with respect to ESL the most recent time I warned him/her (Nov 22), but I frankly didn't feel like undertaking the work of starting one. Rather than present an endless list of diffs, I'll just link to a representative sampling of comments by uninvolved editors commenting in various discussions since ESL was sanctioned the first time at AE. I'm not even going to get into the times that I or other involved editors have warned ESL, or to diffs that preceded the last AE, because that list would be nearly endless.

• Aug 10 - one day after AE sanctions are imposed on ESL, User:Yobol warns ESL that ESL's editing is "disruptive" and ESL's "behavior is toxic" and a reason that user has not contributed more to the page.
• Aug 13 - User:JamesBWatson warns ESL of an "adversarial approach" that is not helpful to Misplaced Pages, and notes that ESL prefers "throwing careless insults around" over civility.
• Aug 17 - User:SandyGeorgia and User:Literaturegeek each warn ESL for disrupting DocJames' RFA
• Oct 26 - User:Cirt warns ESL regarding personal attacks on other editors.
• Nov 10 - User:Rumiton warns ESL of "repeated tendentious verbosity" and "triumphal incomprehensibility", observing that it is impossible to know if the problem is a lack of command of English or deliberate disruption, but that "the editing process cannot survive it, and editors who care about this subject need to take a stand. I'm outta here".

When uninvolved editors look at these pages, they inevitably soon conclude that participation is fruitless, principally because of Edith. There is no way around that conclusion, and there is pretty much only one solution to the problem. This has gone on long enough. Too long. Fladrif (talk) 19:45, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Result concerning Edith Sirius Lee

• I suggest a topic ban for six months of ESL. Her participation has been combative and non-productive. I see no signs she is making any serious effort to modify her troublesome behavior. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 17:45, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
• Comment: I agree with this suggestion and assessment by admin KillerChihuahua. -- Cirt (talk) 18:44, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Marokwitz

Piotrus

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Piotrus

User requesting enforcement

Offliner (talk) 07:47, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Piotrus (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated

Misplaced Pages:EEML#Modified_by_motion_3

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

1. Warning by Coren (talk · contribs) "I also agree in principle with a narrowing of the topic ban, but that would be accompanied with a stern warning that trying to toe the line and argue about where it lies is the swiftest way to have it return"
2. Warning by SirFozzie (talk · contribs) "as for the narrowing, I agree with Brad, and will at least be willing to narrow the topic ban, with the caveat that it's going to be very quickly reapplied if there are future issues"

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)

Block and reinstatement of full EE topic ban

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Offliner (talk) 07:47, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning Piotrus

Statement by Piotrus

I do not believe that my edit violates the topic ban "from articles about national, cultural, or ethnic disputes within Eastern Europe". The Peace of Riga article is about a peace treaty, not about some "national, cultural, or ethnic dispute". It is my understanding that wars (and subsequently, peace treaties) do not fall under the revised topic ban, based on 1) the fact that an editor has already complained that I edited another war article (Great Northern War) during my request for amendment and that complain was ignored by the Committee (as presumably not even violating the generic EE area topic ban) and 2) I raised the question whether I can edit war-related articles, and I asked Coren in particular if I can edit list of Nazi-era ghettos (an article related to both the Holocaust and WWII - two major disputes) and he said yes (both cases are discussed by me and Coren here).

Further, I will add that in the diff cited, I reverted an IP editor, who in turn reverted me less than an hour afterwords. Please note that I made only a single edit to that article and after I was reverted by the IP editor again I have chosen not to continue to be engaged in this incident anymore (I am voluntarily sticking to my self-imposed 1RR in the EE area). Nobody raised complains w/ regards to my short-lived edit (the article is stable and has been throughout its history, not being a subject to any serious dispute among editors); nobody raised complains (barring this one) with regards to any of my edits that I've carried out in the past few weeks since the amendment. I think that my edit in question has been done in good faith, with a civil edit summary, and my further exchange with the (presumably now-registered) IP editor was civil and constructive (here, here). The IP editor also started a discussion on talk, per my suggestion. As such, I believe that my edit had a positive influence on Misplaced Pages (please note the important difference between the spirit of the law and the letter...).

All that said, I will appreciate advice from uninvolved editors on how close do they think this edit was to the topic ban (and why). To quote Coren: "how likely is it that someone not involved in the past disputes would see this as a violation"? Please let me know. To further show my good faith (and to follow Coren's advice to "withdraw at the first sign of trouble"), while this discussion is ongoing here, I am going to avoid doing any edits similar to the one under discussion. As I told Coren in the linked discussion, I am actively trying to avoid approaching the ban line, but the wording of the ban makes it difficult (it is quite easy to argue that almost any article is related to some dispute, hence it is quite easy for an editor who wants to see the editor under such a topic ban punished or at least criticized to find a diff that he can put up for a review...). While I still do not believe (per arguments cited above) that my edit violated the ban, if there is consensus among neutral editors that I did, I hope that a warning will be enough, in light of the facts that I was under the impression that war-related articles are ok for me to edit, that the edit was done in good faith, that I chose not to engage in further editing of the article after having been reverted and that I chose to pay extra attention to my subsequent edits after this one has been brought to my attention. To editors favoring blocks as punishment, I'd suggest this short reading (or just look at the second line in the Misplaced Pages:Blocking policy).

Lastly, I find Offliner wikistalking of my edits (he has not been involved in editing the Peace of Riga article) and his decision to take a single edit (an edit that as I outlined above was good faithed, civil and constructive) in an unclear topic ban here instead of discussing it with me worrisome and not conductive to creating good editing atmosphere. Considering his attitude towards me and other EEML editors, and his insistence of bringing the smallest potential infractions here and asking for the largest possible punishments, I'd like to note that his attitude is actively damaging to the attempts by others to deradicalize and rebuild normal editing relations and friendly atmosphere (this was already noted by arbitrators during my request for amendment, see for example). There is also the matter of his 1-year block and his unblocking: while I would never ask for his unblock to be reviewed, I do believe that unblocked editors should focus on building the encyclopedia - not on hounding their former wiki-enemies. I'd be happy to collaborate with Offliner on creating encyclopedic content; instead I find that I have to waste my time defending myself and discussing wikipolitics here. What if anything can be done with regards to his battleground attitude towards other editors and use of AE for this purpose, I'll leave to the neutral editors reviewing this case (I also understand that this request may not be the best place to review his attitude, but if this is the case, I'd appreciate advice on where such a review can be made; I'll also note that in the past editors making bad-faithed, frivolous AE requests have been discussed and remedies on them - such as interactions ban and bans from making AE rwequests - issued after they've made such requests in the very AE threads they started). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:22, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Reply to Novickas: the instances you cite concern cases where, after making an edit, I decided that the edit was not justified and I self reverted. It could be because I thought the edit was perhaps too close to the blurry topic ban line, or because I thought that the item should be discussed at talk first, or simply because I realized that the original poster was right and I was wrong (or a combination of those factors). I am not sure what you mean by "troublesome articles", as they are not subject to any troubles, nor have been in the past (one of them is a brand new article, edited only by few editors, for example, with no sign of any "trouble"). With regards to the other editor being an IP, I was just stating a fact. With regard to my usage of the term wikistalking, I prefer it over hounding, and as long as the redirect remains in place I see no reason not to use the term (although this is perhaps not the best place to discuss the terminology; in any case I have refactored my statement to make clear I refer to wikistalking). In either case, the link does point to a correct policy: "following other user around accompanied by tendentiousness, personal attacks, or other disruptive behavior disruption to another user's own enjoyment of editing, or to the project generally." (And if it is not clear: being dragged back into the atmosphere of "EE battleground" here and a reminder that some users seem incapable of forgiving & forgetting is not contributing to my "enjoyment of editing"). Yes, N., you are right that tracking policy violations is fine - but don't forget the context: "in good faith and attempt to resolve a dispute instead of escalating one" - qualities that this AE request is lacking (to say the least, IMHO). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 03:21, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Reply to all: thanks to your comments (by Mkativerata and Novickas in particular) I know see how the edit in question can be seen as too close to the topic ban area. Thank you for the clarification, and I will make sure to be more careful in the future. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:30, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Novickas

I don't know why Piotr has been doing this, but he has made several ventures into troublesome articles over the past week or so -making edits and then taking them back. Could you, P, explain why you've been doing this? The one that Offliner cites above might need some context.- P's edit summary was: "Beraza was not a concentration camp. How is this relevant to the article? Please explain on talk. Thanks." It refers to the 1930s Bereza Kartuska prison, often called a concentration camp, for political/other prisoners in Poland. Piotr was well aware that it was an area of EE dispute, having made a number of contributions to the article and to its talk . You could reasonably say it remains under dispute, since it still has POV tags. The following P. edits probably don't need context, but if they do, please ask. Dec. 6 at Poland Anti-Religious Campaign (1945–1990) - , edit summary "(self-rv, will report for discussion at WT:POLAND instead)". Invasion of Poland from Nov. 29 (ES:"(self-rv, the previous editor is correct (per photo description)" Nov. 27 at Poland–Russia relations (ES: "self-rv, will raise the issue on talk first)".

WRT to the justification above that an edit he reverted was made by an IP - he apparently doesn't subscribe to this philosophy. I do and I think I'm not alone. The IP editor added a ref.

I also ask Piotr to stop using the term stalking. WP:Wikistalking now redirects to Misplaced Pages:Harassment. Per Misplaced Pages:HA#What_harassment_is_not, it's acceptable to follow a user's contributions for policy violations, since the contribution logs exist for editorial and behavioral oversight. Tracking P.'s contributions to see whether any violate his arbcom sanction would fall into that category. Novickas (talk) 03:10, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Dojarca

I am shocked to see the administrators to prose a ban on reporting the topic ban violations by the EEML members, effectively creating an indulgency for them to do whatever they want. The only reason why Offliner makes such many reports is that there are so many violations and also the fact that the EEML gruop succeeded to drive so many their opponents out from Misplaced Pages so there is very little users remaining who can report their violations. Anyway there is no harm in such reports because we can see that the topic bans are not perfectly followed.

If Offliner wants he can notify me of any violations he spotted so I could report the violations here as a proxy if the admind do not welcome his reports any more. Dojarca (talk) 07:18, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning Piotrus

• Just a note that while I think that Piotrus's interpretation of the topic area might well have been a bit too wide in this case and that withdrawing is the correct thing to do, Offliner's insistence on trying to find fault with previous adversaries is more than a little worrisome. — Coren  18:18, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
  • I think it might be a good idea to apply WP:BOOMERANG to discourage this sort of WP:BATTLE behavior. Jehochman 18:24, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
    • It's more than a little worrisome that Coren has decided to declare Piotrus as "my adversary." I have never had any problems with Piotrus. Just because I happen to be the one who reports the edit -- which was admitted to have been a violation -- doesn't mean I have an adversarial relationship with Piotrus. Unless WP:EEML topic bans were just an ArbCom scam to make people think the problem has been solved, they need to be enforced. No one has been tasked with reporting the violations - and it seems that anyone who does gets immediately attacked. If Coren and Jehochman have something against me, I'm sure they can do the job instead and take full responsibility. Are you willing to do this? Offliner (talk) 18:16, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
      • It is apparent that you have an axe to grind and grasp at straws to find some reason to punish a certain group of editors. A denial of your adversarial relationship with that group of editors is absurdly jaw dropping and completely at odds with even a brief review of only your contributions to enforcement noticeboards. If you really do not understand the problem with this complaint, I suggest you accept that your judgment is clouded by a long, contentious history and take a self-imposed break from commenting in any way on those editors before an administrator imposes a break for you. Consider this a warning. Vassyana (talk) 18:45, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
• I don't think it's wise to sanction over an isolated incident. Similarly, I don't think it's wise to sanction an editor if they've reported something that obviously had some validity and it's been of some benefit - it has served as a warning that the edit went too far. At the same time, we can't pretend nothing happened here. In regards to Piotrus, I think Mkativerata's suggestion is sufficent at this time. In regards to Offliner, I think Vassyana's warning is sufficient at this time (and Mkativerata's proposal makes it clear as to what may happen next). Strictly speaking, neither editor had clean hands when this came here, and both should have given a bit more thought as to what they were doing. Accordingly, I don't think anything beyond warnings are required to close this. Ncmvocalist (talk) 00:54, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

In addition to EdJohnston's list, Offliner has also brought another AE case against me . I don't think two months is sufficient given the prior history and the seven month site ban. Another editor associated with Offliner had also continually brought complaints against myself and other former members of the EEML earlier this year. The ArbCom subsequently saw fit to indefinitely restrict that person from interacting with former EEML members and this remedy has proved to be remarkably successful, allowing that person to continue to contribute good content while freeing him from the temptation of stalking his adversaries. Therefore I ask that a discretionary measure similar to the one enacted by the ArbCom be made along the following lines:

• "Offliner (talk · contribs) is prohibited from commenting on or unnecessarily interacting with editors from the EEML case, except in the case of necessary dispute resolution."

--Martin (talk) 03:22, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

I am sorry for this analogy, but rephrasing the advice by Dr. Lecter to Clarice, when you look at the edit history of a user (Piotrus, Offliner, Dojarca, Martintg, and so on), you must ask the question: "What is his real nature? What is that he does ?" Biophys (talk) 17:12, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

How about this. Piotr runs his ideas for possibly problematic edits past User:Mkativerata, or User:EdJohnston, or User:Ncmvocalist first. Since he's said above that he sees the topic ban line as blurry, has quickly self-reverted his edits or let them be after disagreement, and those three seem willing to explain and help. And those who feel he may have violated it are free to do the same. No repercussions for either action. This might be burdensome to Mk, Ed, or Ncm, of course. It has been so to other editors. But not completely thankless. Thanks. Novickas (talk) 16:55, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

If the topic bans are to work, they need to be enforced. I think it's every editor's responsibility to report any violations they see -- that's what I have been doing here. But reading Mkativerata's comment, I think what he said makes sense. Often reports can lead to a battleground with offensive comments being thrown around. Not seldom are these targeted against the reporter himself, which makes reporting a highly unpleasant activity. I think it's better if someone else files the reports, if necessary. Perhaps some of the admins who commented here could take responsibility for that, or it could be left to the editors involved in the content disputes, like EdJohnston suggested. In short, I think Mkativerata is right, and I can agree to voluntarily stay away from AE for three months. Offliner (talk) 18:28, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Result concerning Piotrus

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

My views are:

@Piotrus: this edit was too close to the line. Yes, the article on its title might not strictly be about a "dispute" of a relevant kind, but the last two prose sections of the article - one of which contained the relevant edit - clearly are. Accordingly, the article should be seen as being related to a relevant dispute. I do not see how Coren's very guarded advice to Piotrus on Coren's talk page could have given Piotrus any confidence to touch articles like this. However, I'm not inclined to take any action. The difficulty here is, to a large extent, with the drafting of the amended motion. The evidence above shows that Piotrus is making good faith attempts to comply with that motion and is not trying to game or wikilawyer it. As Coren said "If you trip over something in good faith, nobody's going to hold it against you as long as you are diligent in accepting that you may have erred and step away." Piotrus was also advised to "withdraw at the first sign of trouble". I would suggest Piotrus treat this AE as a sign of trouble.

@Offliner: Clearly Offliner is using AE to remove editors from the area of dispute. That is shown by his or her complete uninvolvement in the relevant article, the call for the strongest possible sanctions, and repeat AE filings. Just to be clear: this AE is not frivolous or baseless - I've said above that I think Piotrus was stepping too far. Also, the sad fact is that discretionary sanctions require enforcement, enforcement requires reporting, and reporting will inevitably come from involved editors. However the continued filing of AEs of this kind does nothing to help the avoidance of battleground behaviour. Clearly Offliner is following his or her opponents and looking for reasons to have them sanctioned. Continued behaviour of that kind needs to be prevented - it is far more damaging to the editing environment than the isolated line-ball allegations of topic bans that are being reported. For the purpose of preventing further escalation, I propose, under the authority of WP:DIGWUREN, a two-month ban on Offliner from participating in any dispute resolution or enforcement processes relating to user conduct in the area of conflict, except where the processes concern allegations of Offliner's own conduct. Ultimately, the project has more to lose by continued battleground behaviour than by missing isolated violations of the kind that Offliner might have otherwise discovered.

I'll leave this open for comment. --Mkativerata (talk) 23:34, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

• Agree with Mkativerata that Piotrus's work at Peace of Riga is over the line, since it is talking about disputes. I would not recommend any sanctions on Piotrus, but expect him to move to safer articles. I am sympathetic to restricting Offliner from posts at AE about Eastern Europe when his own conduct is not in question, for a reasonable period. Offliner was not himself involved in editing Peace of Riga, so Piotrus was not interfering with any plans that Offliner might have had for improving that article.
• Since Offliner returned from a seven-month ban in August, he has spent surprisingly much time at AE complaining about the activities of EEML editors. Here are some of his edits:

-- EdJohnston (talk) 02:41, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

• It seems to me that the edit in question was pushing the boundaries of the topic ban, whether deliberately or not. Perhaps we need to apply/reapply broader topic bans for the filer and/or the respondent. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 17:15, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

  I wouldn't be inclined to unless we see repeat problems. Both editors have responded constructively so far so I don't think there's a case for going further than the very limited restriction proposed for Offliner. --Mkativerata (talk) 20:53, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

• Agree with Mkativerata in all respects. T. Canens (talk) 21:32, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Ok, to round this off (thanks to all for the comments):

• Piotrus is urged to exercise a more conservative approach to ensuring his edits do not trespass into areas covered by his topic ban.
• Offliner is prohibited from commencing or participating in dispute resolution or enforcement processes (including arbitration enforcement) relating to user conduct within the area of conflict (as defined by WP:DIGWUREN#Discretionary sanctions) for a period of two months, save for processes concerning Offliner's own conduct. To avoid doubt, "commencing or participating in" includes doing so by proxy.

Cheers --Mkativerata (talk) 22:38, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Martintg

Ronda2001

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Martintg

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found in this 2010 ArbCom motion. According to that motion, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user

Martintg (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – ~~~

Sanction being appealed

3 week block

Administrator imposing the sanction

User:HJ Mitchell

Notification of that administrator

I've sent an email to HJ Mitchell (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Confirmed, for the record. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 18:22, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Martintg

I don't think this block is entirely reasonable or fair, given that only two weeks remain before the expiration of my topic ban, these were two isolated minor edits made in good faith. I did undertake to refrain from any further edits in the remaining period if it was an issue as I stated here.

Statement by Piotrus

I will start with a disclaimer that I am a colleague of Marting and also under the same topic ban as him (it is also my understanding that I am allowed to post here; if not please let me know and I'll remove my argument). So you will not be surprised when I say that his 3-week block seems to harsh to me. I'd nonetheless ask you to consider the following arguments:

• the wording of the topic ban does not make it crystal clear which articles are subject to it (sure, some are obvious, but some are in the "gray")
• Marting makes in his statement a valid argument that the article he edited is not about an EE-related dispute, and that the second one is purely technical. One can disagree with his argument, but the logic is valid - hence we can see how he made his error (and that it was in good faith).
• as I noted, I (and like he) were under an impression that WWII/Holocaust articles are ok for us to edit (we both now understand our interpretation was incorrect, but it was an error made in good faith)
• Marting has violated his topic ban once before, but overall he has made less than one violating edit per month of the topic ban - it seems clear that he is not trying to test the boundaries or abuse it, he just made an honest mistake in judgment
• his two edits were not part of a pattern, nor of any dispute, there were no reverts or other editing conflict
• he did say that if his edits are problem "I will voluntarily refrain from editing any articles regarding the Jewish people of Estonia for the remaining two weeks of my topic ban.", demonstrating good faith, will to disengage and learn from past mistakes
• from our blocking policy: "Blocks are used to prevent damage or disruption to Misplaced Pages, not to punish users". What damage or disruption will this three weeks block prevent? Marting has already said he is willing to rethink the boundaries of his ban if others think he violated it with his edits. The three week block seems to me to be a punishment-only block, protecting the project from no real danger, and preventing Marting from editing constructively in other areas.
• is a three-week block really the reasonable punishment for his error (and was the one-week block the reasonable punishment for the first one)? Why is it one week/three week instead of one day/two day, for example?

As such, I'd ask you to reconsider whether three weeks is indeed the right punishment. Could I suggest an alternative: 3 days of a block, and extension of the topic ban by two weeks, for example? This will serve the purpose of leaving a note in a block log, giving the editor some time to think it over, and the community, more time to see if he has learned not to touch the line of the ban. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 22:16, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

PS. As noted below, the severity of this punishment has seemingly driven the editor into leaving the project (). Is this the intended outcome? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 22:20, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Statement by (involved editor 2)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Martintg

Result of the appeal by Martintg

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

Copied from User talk:Martintg. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 18:22, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

The appellant appears to have retired. I think it would be pointless to hear this appeal unless Martintg changes his or her mind. So unless anyone has any objections I'll hat this in a little while and it can be re-opened if necessary. --Mkativerata (talk) 20:52, 8 December 2010 (UTC)