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Littleolive oil and Edith Sirius Lee 2

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Littleolive oil and Edith Sirius Lee 2

User requesting enforcement

Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 08:06, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Littleolive oil (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Edith Sirius Lee 2 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated

"that editor repeatedly or seriously violates the behavioural standards or editorial processes of Misplaced Pages in connection with these articles."

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

In this dif from Olive she refers to directs quotes from JAMA as "your personal biases". This is against WP:CIVIL, WP:DUE and the current ArbCom remedies. She has current restrictions in place here .

In these difs from Edith and my views are referred to as "paranoid" A warning was given here for this previous edit where she states "Doc James destroyed years of work". This user has subsequently changed user names to User:Edith Sirius Lee 2

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)

Topic area ban for Edith, Warning for Olive

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

This users have an admitted WP:COI in that she admits to practicing TM. They edit this subject area primarily or exclusively.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Olive here

Edith

Discussion concerning Littleolive oil

Statement by Littleolive oil

Mainspace edits per "They edit this subject area primarily or exclusively."

Clarifications and context per the TM arbitration:

• All editors on the list created by EdJohnston, as well as Jmh649 (Doc James) and Will Beback were parties in the TM arbitration.
• All editors were included in the decisions and remedies
• After months of deliberation and multiple pages of evidence, no single editor, with one exception, and no so-called group was found to be any more or less at blame than any other.
• No COI was found/named in the arbitration
• The TM arbitration did not in any way identify editors as belonging to "groups", but treated editors as individuals.
• The TM arbitration discretionary sanction statement cited by Doc James, says a warning is required (bold). The full statement says:

Any uninvolved administrator may, in his or her own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor editing Transcendental meditation or other articles concerning Transcendental meditation and related biographies of living people, broadly defined, if, after a warning, that editor repeatedly or seriously violates the behavioural standards or editorial processes of Misplaced Pages in connection with these articles.

- Per the TM arbitration I was not warned, nor does one strongly worded statement constitute," repeatedly or seriously violates the behavioural standards or editorial processes."

Statement:

My comment in the TM talk page was not a response to the JAMA article. It was a response to Doc James' history of personalizing comments, lack of assuming good faith, and hisj insistence on editing on a body of research from a singular point of view. Its clear from this thread,that I wasn’t sure what James was referring to. My intent was not to offend another editor but to express serious concern to an editor who has a history of unilateral editing, (even in the face of an RfC, where he split content off the main article including the TM research, on the second day of an RfC, while another solution had been suggested by an uninvolved editor, in the face of editor disagreement, effectively preempting the RfC) . However, the comment was strongly worded, and since it offended I sincerely apologize and will strike the statement.

On three previous occasions I have asked James to assume good faith:

Cmt:Warning:

Cmt:Warning:

Cmt:Warning:

Concerns I have with Doc James' editing behaviour

Personalizing comments on the TM article talk page:

• "Well it seems that TM publishes a huge amount which they like to brag about little of the work has any real scientific substance to it."

• "We do know that peoples who lively-hood and identity depend on TM disagree with a major report that found it either ineffective… "

• "You will need to convince Misplaced Pages editors who are not practitioners of TM the validity of your argument…."

• "Yes the three of you agree but you also all practice TM. Now please get some outside input."

• "You and a number of editors who practice TM keep changing it. There have been no attempts by those who practice TM to get outside supporting opinions. It seems that only those who practice TM agree with the wording presented."

• "Some have a desire to present the topic in a non NPOV manner with TM meaning only the technique in line with statements of official TM material.."

• Many more diffs if wanted or needed

Not assuming good faith:

• "I have the impression of efforts to suppress information regarding the TM movement with a desire to give greater emphasis to the technique."

• "I personally see KB list as just a specific selection of sites to support his POV."

Misrepresentation/POV of research/Deletion sourced content on research:

(Violations of TM arbitration)

• Deletes material from a 2007 book published by McGrawHill Medical. The material was sourced to a chapter authored by three scientists from the National Institutes of Health and an assistant professor of clinical psychiatry at Columbia University Medical Center.

• Removes material sourced to a 2008 research review in BMC Psychiatry and a 2006 research review in the journal Ethnicity and Disease.

• At the same time, he discredits research on TM (and violates WP:MEDRS) by quoting a 1985 book on religion that claims "that the original findings had been false or exaggerated."

Comment:

This is the second time James has brought me to AE on charges that are misrepresentations. I was taken to AE, restricted by Future Perfect At Sunrise and the case was closed before I could make a comment. I was restricted based on making two reverts is two months. Neither of these requests is right or fair, nor serves the time of editors who come to these AE/N in any capacity.

I want to make a point very clear per the comment by Edith Sirius Lee. I find these attack situations ugly and distasteful. I commented on James because I had to, not because I wanted to, in efforts to explain why the statement he brought to this page was not an assumption of bad faith but a recognition of a position that is not enabling collaborative discussion, and that follows three previous requests to move on to discussion that focuses on the edits not the editors. My preference is to try to work contention out on a talk page.

Both Will and James know that the Arbitration stipulated an editor must be given a warning prior to asking for enforcement. Yet neither extended a warning for what they considered to be a problematic comment, and both suggested sanctions based on one comment. While I stand by my comment, I don't ever wish to offend anyone, and I would have quickly removed or struck the comment had I seen that It was offensive rather than what I intended it to be, a strongly worded request for an editor to look at his many-times, stated position and to try to delineate his personal opinions from his editing.

The past AE sanction was false and unfair, and is being used here too, as it has in other places to suggest,"this is a problematic editor so lets just cut to the chase and hang her."

Like all editors I'm sure I've made mistakes in my editing, but creating one false sanction on top of another is creating a lie about me and what I do. I assume this is not what James or Will meant to do, but this is, with out a doubt, what is happening. (I'll add diffs)

As an editor, I am doing everything I can to support a collegial, collaborative editing environment, and to move away from convoluted discussion, that includes actively helping to draft a recent RfC suggestion section, asking a neutral outside admin. to come in to gauge consensus when there was disagreement, applying for two mediations, and starting the preliminaries for a third.

To Killer Chihuahua: Thank you for your comment. I think what you say is an important statement for all of us on any contentious article. Don't run to a "parent" to admonish, but keep working at being collaborative which means on the most fundamental level, treating others with respect. My style is to avoid incivility, but I edited too late when I was tired and my frustration caught up with me. So you words are very well taken. And I'll try to keep my hands off the keyboard when I'm tired.(olive (talk) 18:16, 8 December 2010 (UTC))

Comment by Will Beback

One of the principles from the arbitration concerned assuming good faith:

• Decorum and assumptions of good faith
• Misplaced Pages users are expected to behave reasonably, calmly, and courteously in their interactions with other users. Unseemly conduct, such as personal attacks, incivility, assumptions of bad faith, harassment, disruptive point-making, and gaming the system, is prohibited. Making unsupported accusations of such misconduct by other editors, particularly where this is done in repeatedly or in a bad-faith attempt to gain an advantage in a content dispute, is also unacceptable.

The remedies instruct uninvolved admins to the enforce the listed principles:

• Guidance for uninvolved administrators
• Uninvolved administrators are invited to monitor the articles in the area of conflict to enforce compliance by editors with, in particular, the principles outlined in this case. Enforcing administrators are instructed to focus on fresh and clear-cut matters arising after the closure of this case rather than on revisiting historical allegations.

If uninvolved admins think this is a clear-cut case of assuming bad faith then it would be appropriate to enforce compliance using the discretionary sanctions.   Will Beback  talk  09:29, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

(Moved from admins section): I was caught by surprise by this filing, but I believe there is relevant evidence to present here. I think the best thing would be to put this case on hold for a few days to collect and present that material before making a determination. Or, to withdraw it and re-post it shortly.   Will Beback  talk  14:00, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Edith Sirius Lee

Is this officially an AE about Fladrif, TimidGuy and me as well? Since the issue is the lack of progression at the content level, should not admins consider the attitude of all involved editors toward consensus at the content level. @Tijfo098, the adjective "paranoid" was qualifying content (in sources), not editors. Also, the "independently done" is about content. TimidGuy also shared the same opinion about the "independently done". It is just a content dispute. Edith Sirius Lee (talk) 14:23, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning Littleolive oil

Gadzooks, someone please give that poor talkpage a break from the endless hair-splittingly circular arguments and misrepresentation of sources by the proponents (mostly). TM is a form of alternative medicine, so I consider myself WP:INVOLVED despite not having edited there. - 2/0 (cont.) 16:46, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

• I would like to see more than that one dif. One dif does not a pattern make. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 18:27, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Tijfo098

Selective quotation from Talk:Transcendental Meditation#An medical article looking at cost and adverse effects:

Olive: "You clearly are attempting to present the pejorative view." DocJames: "Some people who practice TM says it allows them to fly and have eternal health." Olive: "You are conflating your personal bias with use of sources."

While observing the proportions, this situation appears not dissimilar from that of User:Destinero, who while right about the core science issue related to LGBT parenting, nevertheless chooses the most strident language to proclaim it, and actually manages to support his choice of words with citations (usually page xx out of a long amicus brief of affidavit by a major researcher or science organization), and hardly ever agrees to a compromise on the language regardless of what language other major science orgs use. Ironically, Destinero is the one usually dragged to admin boards for this; ANI, because there was no arbitration case on that topic.

To conclude, there may be POV pushing at work here, but it doesn't seem to me from that discussion that it's only from one side. Tijfo098 (talk) 19:44, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

P.S.: I read some of the context for that thread above where Doc cites Rodney Stark (whose views on the world are highly correlated with his current employer) to say that "Yes I have found a few sources that share my main stream scientific point of view regarding TM and could find many more... " That was funny not in the least because the words "fiercely polemical" are in the first sentence of a NYT book review of one of Stark's books: . Tijfo098 (talk) 19:57, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Regading EdJohnston's 4-way ban proposal

After reading the unarchived talk page there, I think User:Edith Sirius Lee can be justifiably topic banned for repeatedly breaching decorum esp. calling skeptic views of TM "paranoid", and for general absurd lawyering e.g. regarding the word "independently", but I don't see evidence for banning the others listed by EdJohnson. I'm particularly bewildered by the suggestion to ban User:Fladrif as TM proponent; see Talk:Transcendental Meditation#Changes lead. Perhaps the algorithm invoked is red link user name => ban? Tijfo098 (talk) 06:56, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

I know its way off topic, but just to put in a good word for User:Fladrif,he stepped in first to rescue the Michael Welner BLP; he spent a lot of time with the sources too. Mr.Grantevans2 (talk) 02:26, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Fladrif

I am, like Will, rather taken by surprise by this filing, at least as to LittleOliveOil. I don't really see anything in the diffs cited by DocJames that would have justified a topic ban of olive as originally proposed. I see that he has amended his request for her to be for a formal warning only. I'm not convinced that even that is warranted at this time, at least not based on what has been presented so far. Fladrif (talk) 15:42, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Result concerning Littleolive oil

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

Littleolive oil was one of the parties in the June, 2010 Arbcom decision known as WP:ARBTM and I understand that she has a TM affiliation. Over 90% of her edits since 2006 appear to be on the subject of TM. Opinions may differ as to the exact reason for the discussion at Talk:Transcendental Meditation going in circles for so long, but people with a TM affiliation have been working on these articles for years. (The talk page has 37 archives of up to 200Kb each). If the TM people were ever going to create a modus vivendi with the regular editors, it ought to be visible by now. I think that a set of bans from talk pages may be necessary if we ever want these articles to converge. Though COI-affected people can work well with others on some articles, it doesn't seem to be working out here. The least arbitrary way of selecting people for a talk page ban would be to pick those admonished in the Arbcom case or those sanctioned at AE since then. That list would be:

I recommend that we impose a ban of these editors from the topic of Transcendental Meditation for six months, on all pages of Misplaced Pages including article and user talk, except for legitimate and necessary dispute resolution concerning their own edits. The ban would be evaluated after six months to see if their absence improved the editing climate or the quality of the articles. EdJohnston (talk) 05:48, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

Bit draconian, that. Your logic, if I understand it correctly, is "lets just ban everyone who has gotten in trouble before" - hardly justice for those who are trying to mend their ways and have done nothing wrong since their last transgression was sanctioned. Am I missing something? KillerChihuahuaAdvice 12:33, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

I fully agree with that and, I might add, the same flawed logic appears to be at work in a number of other recent cases.

If people want somebody to be topic banned, I want to see a pattern of recent misconduct, not just one diff. I can't see why this case would merit any more than a warning. Gatoclass (talk) 13:20, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

I think we should give Littleolive oil some more time to respond. Otherwise, I agree with KillerChihuahua about the bans proposed by EdJohnston. PhilKnight (talk) 15:47, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

Will Beback has also asked for some more time to prepare his case. I have moved his comment to his own section above. Gatoclass (talk) 16:52, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

As currently presented, I agree that EdJohnston's proposed bans sweep way too broadly. T. Canens (talk) 11:26, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

I would prefer that the much broader concerns be dealt with in a separate AE.--Mkativerata (talk) 19:26, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

After a discussion with two editors on my talk page, and noting the above dissents, I am withdrawing my proposal (above) for the topic bans of four editors. I agree with Mkativerata that the broader concerns could be addressed in a separate AE. The amount of data that was submitted for the present AE would not justify a wide-ranging response. This enforcement request is still asking for sanctions on Littleolive and Edith, and the admins should try to reach a decision there. EdJohnston (talk) 16:39, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

• I am not seeing evidence that Littleolive oil has committed any acts which meet the criteria of "seriously violates the behavioural standards or editorial processes" which need to be dealt with by this board. I am, however, seeing a good bit of minor incivility by all parties, especially ABF by Doc James as well as ABF and borderline NPA violations by Edith Sirius Lee (whose case is being dealt with separately, below) Suggest all parties go back to the talk page; work on civility issues and don't bring concerns here unless the evidence is more compelling. AE is not DR; nor is it for minor or borderline violations of standards of behavior. Good luck, and do try to treat one another with respect. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 17:40, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Discussion concerning Edith Sirius Lee

Statement by Edith Sirius Lee

In all the diffs presented, I am only referring to content (in sources) or to edits that editors have done, including edits that undid a structure that took a long time to establish. There is no direct attack on an editor. I do not usually directly attack the POV of editors. I did it in some other diffs, but I apologized after. I do not know Doc James, but I am pretty sure he is a nice person. We just disagree on content. If I do my own self critic, I would say that I can be too direct when I contradict other editors in a content dispute using logics, which could even be wrong some times. It is often not well taken. I believe though that I am improving. Edith Sirius Lee (talk) 18:36, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

I should add that I am told that my English grammar is not always easy to read. This cannot help. I will try to improve that also. Edith Sirius Lee (talk) 16:07, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Here is my reply to Fladrif's diffs. I agree that my communication skill in the diffs of Aug 10, Aug 13 and Nov 10 was inappropriate. In all cases, I was too argumentative, too direct and perhaps my grammar did not help. I could find more diffs of this kind against me. I think that I am improving. I already plaid guilty for that above, but they were not personal attacks. I certainly did not say I prefer "throwing careless insults around" over civility. It is JamesBWatson that is quoted here, not me - this is taken out of context.

As far as the Aug 17 diffs are concerned, the issue is that a discussion was misplaced: all editors, not only me, were warned to continue in the talk page of the RFA, not in the RFA itself, because it was disruptive. I already discussed the Oct 26 diff above. It was a comment that I made about James's edits, which "destroyed" a structure that took a long time to establish. It was not about James directly. Edith Sirius Lee (talk) 22:52, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

An important clarification. I plaid guilty of being too argumentative, etc., but it is not true that I did not improve recently. The six months ban is not necessary. As it is now, I feel I am helping the discussion among editors, making it more productive, not the opposite. Edith Sirius Lee (talk) 20:19, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Statements by others concerning EdithSiriusLee

Statement by Fladrif

In stark contrast to my surprise at a new AE being filed at this time as to LOO, I am not surprised at all that a new AE is necessary and appropriate as to ESL in all of his/her incarnations. ESL is a consistently disruptive SPA whose only role has been to inundate the talk pages with a relentless deluge of tendacity, obstinance and personal attacks, posing an insurmountable obstacle to the reaching of consensus and cooperation. Repeated warnings from involved and uninvolved editors and administrators, and even the imposition of sanctions at an earlier AE have done nothing to convince ESL to conform his/her editing to the requirements of Misplaced Pages policy and guidelines and the requirements of the TM ArbCom. I can think of nothing, short of a complete topic ban, that can address this persistent and apparently deliberate behavior. I was sorely tempted to start an AE with respect to ESL the most recent time I warned him/her (Nov 22), but I frankly didn't feel like undertaking the work of starting one. Rather than present an endless list of diffs, I'll just link to a representative sampling of comments by uninvolved editors commenting in various discussions since ESL was sanctioned the first time at AE. I'm not even going to get into the times that I or other involved editors have warned ESL, or to diffs that preceded the last AE, because that list would be nearly endless.

• Aug 10 - one day after AE sanctions are imposed on ESL, User:Yobol warns ESL that ESL's editing is "disruptive" and ESL's "behavior is toxic" and a reason that user has not contributed more to the page.
• Aug 13 - User:JamesBWatson warns ESL of an "adversarial approach" that is not helpful to Misplaced Pages, and notes that ESL prefers "throwing careless insults around" over civility.
• Aug 17 - User:SandyGeorgia and User:Literaturegeek each warn ESL for disrupting DocJames' RFA
• Oct 26 - User:Cirt warns ESL regarding personal attacks on other editors.
• Nov 10 - User:Rumiton warns ESL of "repeated tendentious verbosity" and "triumphal incomprehensibility", observing that it is impossible to know if the problem is a lack of command of English or deliberate disruption, but that "the editing process cannot survive it, and editors who care about this subject need to take a stand. I'm outta here".

When uninvolved editors look at these pages, they inevitably soon conclude that participation is fruitless, principally because of Edith. There is no way around that conclusion, and there is pretty much only one solution to the problem. This has gone on long enough. Too long. Fladrif (talk) 19:45, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Result concerning Edith Sirius Lee

• I suggest a topic ban for six months of ESL. Her participation has been combative and non-productive. I see no signs she is making any serious effort to modify her troublesome behavior. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 17:45, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
• Comment: I agree with this suggestion and assessment by admin KillerChihuahua. -- Cirt (talk) 18:44, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
  • I have unarchived this request, as it needs closing before it could be archived. T. Canens (talk) 11:02, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
• I agree with this assessment, and would be willing to impose the six-month topic ban. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:20, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Martintg

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found in this 2010 ArbCom motion. According to that motion, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user

Martintg (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – ~~~

Sanction being appealed

3 week block

Administrator imposing the sanction

User:HJ Mitchell

Notification of that administrator

I've sent an email to HJ Mitchell (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Confirmed, for the record. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 18:22, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Martintg

I don't think this block is entirely reasonable or fair, given that only two weeks remain before the expiration of my topic ban, these were two isolated minor edits made in good faith. I did undertake to refrain from any further edits in the remaining period if it was an issue as I stated here.

As I said, those two edits were minor technical edits, it wasn't my intention to purposely breach my ban, I had a good faith belief I hadn't. Why would I knowingly breach my topic ban with only two weeks to go? That said, I gave my undertaking not to edit that topic further. I don't know what kind of signal this block is suppose to send, if I was just beginning my topic ban that would make sense. But given the circumstances, unless the intent is to make me quit the project, this block seems to be sending a totally the wrong message.

As I was blocked per the provisions of WP:EEML (the block being logged there) rather than as a discretionary sanction per WP:DIGWUREN, is the duration fair? Given that blocks are a technical measure used to enforce bans, per Misplaced Pages:BLOCK#Enforcing_bans, and that my topic ban is coming to an end on December 22nd anyway, is it right that this block should exceed the length of the remaining duration of the topic ban? What would be the point of that? --Martin (talk) 01:15, 9 December 2010 (UTC) Posted here for the appellant. --Mkativerata (talk) 01:36, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

FPS dismisses my sincere belief at the time that I hadn't breached by topic ban as "specious". I am not continuing to claim that I didn't breach my ban, I implicitly accepted I had when I offered to not continue to make those. I was merely explaining my mind set at the time. Surely there must be a distinction made between wilful deliberate "testing the limits" and an honest mistake, why would I knowingly jeopardise myself just two weeks out from the expiry of my topic ban. and I fail to see why FPS does not see that. People make mistakes, I made another elsewhere and reverted as soon as realised I had as that edit was related to communism.

HJ Mitchell may be a marvellous fighter of vandalism and I'm sure he is proud of his ban hammer as his userbox suggests, but I don't think he has the right temperament for patrolling AE. While other admins first discuss proposed sanctions before acting, he acts first before discussing. Admins wield extraordinary power at AE, they need to discuss first. Just in the previous 24 hours he had made four bad blocks:

1. 10:31, 7 December 2010 (diff | hist) User talk:HJ Mitchell ‎ (→Your block of Nableezy: reply)
2. 09:33, 6 December 2010 (diff | hist) User talk:HJ Mitchell ‎ (→Everybody makes mistakes: r)
3. 08:16, 6 December 2010 (diff | hist) User talk:Shshshsh ‎ (→December 2010: oh shit! My bad)
4. 01:33, 6 December 2010 (diff | hist) User talk:HJ Mitchell ‎ (→Block: reply)

This is a bad block. I want to move on, my topic ban expires in less than two weeks in any case, and this block serves no purpose other than demonstrate that some admins are inflexible and unforgiving. I accept the reality of my block by it's duration is exceedingly unfair given that my topic ban which led to this block will expire soon and I made an honest mistake.--Martin (talk) 19:17, 9 December 2010 (UTC) Posted here for the appellant. --Mkativerata (talk) 19:19, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

OK, that's enough. This is about you and how you violated your topic ban, not about my history as an admin. Nice cherry-picking off diffs, btw, how long did that take you? An hour? Two? The first was a bad block, the second and third are about the same block and the final diff was a perfectly good block. I've made nearly 3,000 blocks. That a handful of them don't stand up is unsurprising. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:42, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

FPS's assertion that "and the perception of modern Estonian attitudes towards those past events, are at the very heart of the present-day ethnic disputes concerning the country and its neighbours" demonstrates the difficulty with this area. I think FPS may confusing Estonia with Lithuania. Both happen to be Baltic states and people often confuse them, attributing attitudes of one country to another. As I said in my original statement, as far as I know there is no general dispute regarding the Holocaust within Estonia. This whole issue of perception demonstrates why this area of interpreting my topic ban is fraught with difficulty. It is not a black and white issue like vandalism or 3RR. Some leeway must be given to genuine differences of opinion. We can agree to disagree, but I accept that some admins believe I breached my topic ban as they interpret it and I have undertaken not to edit that area further, but don't sanction me harshly over it.--Martin (talk) 19:41, 9 December 2010 (UTC) Posted here for the appellant. --Mkativerata (talk) 19:56, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

It is true that the amended topic ban has proved to be problematic. In fact I had originally warned User:Newyorkbrad (the original proposer of the amendment) of the potential problems with the amended remedy here. There were no problems in the eight months prior to that amendment, demonstrating that I do take such things seriously. I can voluntarily agree to abide by the original wider EE topic ban for the remainder of the term until December 22nd, if that helps. I have given similar voluntary undertakings in the past and have followed through . --Martin (talk) 22:09, 9 December 2010 (UTC)Posted here for the appellant. --Mkativerata (talk) 23:36, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Piotrus

I will start with a disclaimer that I am a colleague of Marting and also under the same topic ban as him (it is also my understanding that I am allowed to post here; if not please let me know and I'll remove my argument). So you will not be surprised when I say that his 3-week block seems to harsh to me. I'd nonetheless ask you to consider the following arguments:

• the wording of the topic ban does not make it crystal clear which articles are subject to it (sure, some are obvious, but some are in the "gray")
• Marting makes in his statement a valid argument that the article he edited is not about an EE-related dispute, and that the second one is purely technical. One can disagree with his argument, but the logic is valid - hence we can see how he made his error (and that it was in good faith).
• as I noted, I (and like he) were under an impression that WWII/Holocaust articles are ok for us to edit (we both now understand our interpretation was incorrect, but it was an error made in good faith)
• Marting has violated his topic ban once before, but overall he has made less than one violating edit per month of the topic ban - it seems clear that he is not trying to test the boundaries or abuse it, he just made an honest mistake in judgment
• his two edits were not part of a pattern, nor of any dispute, there were no reverts or other editing conflict
• he did say that if his edits are problem "I will voluntarily refrain from editing any articles regarding the Jewish people of Estonia for the remaining two weeks of my topic ban.", demonstrating good faith, will to disengage and learn from past mistakes
• from our blocking policy: "Blocks are used to prevent damage or disruption to Misplaced Pages, not to punish users". What damage or disruption will this three weeks block prevent? Marting has already said he is willing to rethink the boundaries of his ban if others think he violated it with his edits. The three week block seems to me to be a punishment-only block, protecting the project from no real danger, and preventing Marting from editing constructively in other areas.
• is a three-week block really the reasonable punishment for his error (and was the one-week block the reasonable punishment for the first one)? Why is it one week/three week instead of one day/two day, for example?

As such, I'd ask you to reconsider whether three weeks is indeed the right punishment. Could I suggest an alternative: 3 days of a block, and extension of the topic ban by two weeks, for example? This will serve the purpose of leaving a note in a block log, giving the editor some time to think it over, and the community, more time to see if he has learned not to touch the line of the ban. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 22:16, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

PS. As noted below, the severity of this punishment has seemingly driven the editor into leaving the project (). Is this the intended outcome? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 22:20, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Sander Säde

I would like to point out that the three week block is unduly harsh. The previous one week block was enforced by a deeply involved administrator, who blocked Martin in record time after Arbitration Enforcement request was filed - despite the only non-involved administrator commenting at the time expressed doubts about the evidence and recommended Martin to stop editing such topics, or he might get a warning.

If you look at the EEML log, then you can see that the standard has been to give an official warning or 12h for the first violation, 24 to 48 hours on the second violation. Martin has never been officially warned for topic ban breach (as can be seen in the EEML log) and this is his second possible violation of the topic ban.

His two edits are entirely noncontroversial (they are both, in fact, Wikignome-type edits). The article itself is noncontroversial and stable - no edit-warring, no dubious edits, no heated discussions on the talk page. I don't see how it is possible to claim that the edits violate his topic ban "about national, cultural, or ethnic disputes within Eastern Europe". I thought it was required for an editor filing the Arbitration Enforcement request to explain how the edits violated the Arbitration remedies - not just give couple of naked diffs and basically claim "it is all there, mmmkay"?

--Sander Säde 16:46, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Future Perfect, would you kindly explain the dispute in question? --Sander Säde 18:53, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

The Holocaust itself was, of course, an ethnic conflict (in the most horrible sense possible), but what's even more directly relevant here, Estonia's WWII past, and especially the issue of (real or perceived) Estonian participation in Nazi crimes, and the perception of modern Estonian attitudes towards those past events, are at the very heart of the present-day ethnic disputes concerning the country and its neighbours. Therefore, an article on The Holocaust in Estonia is about as centrally part of the topic-ban area as it gets. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:08, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, but this seems to be just a generic statement. Estonia is one of the few countries that has studied the involvement of Estonians in Nazi and Soviet crimes in depth - indeed, the research concluded by Estonian History Commission (no Estonians were members) is of such quality that it has become a "standard" base research for the topic, being used not only by historians, but even by European Court of Human Rights. As far as I know, there are no "present-day ethnic disputes" related to the Holocaust in Estonia. There is no sign in the article about such dispute - nor are there any such issues raised on the talk page - in fact, there are no user edits for months on the talk page and the entire history of the talk page is less than 50 edits. Quite the opposite, this seems to be an article where even people of various POV's collegially come together to edit the page in a friendly atmosphere - just read the discussions on the talk.

Also, I do not understand how two noncontroversial wikignome edits by Martin warrant three week block for a second offense in a year (usual block would be 24 or 48 hours). Could you please explain what was the harm done by these and how does Martin's block help Misplaced Pages?

--Sander Säde 19:50, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Precisely which article was edited is no more relevant than what the edit was. The article was within the scope of the topic ban and any reasonable person would agree that the Holocaust in Estonia falls well within "ethnic conflicts in Eastern Europe". HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:10, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

So, basically there is "ethnic conflicts in Eastern Europe" in Estonia related to the Holocaust, except no one has been able to demonstrate it, quite the opposite. Uhm, yes, now it all makes suddenly sense... --Sander Säde 20:18, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Sander, please remember that the wording of this topic ban is very stretchable. Even Martin has agreed, above, to an interpretation that he violated it. It is my understanding that what is being appealed is not the fact that the topic ban was violated, but that the punishment issued is way to severe. I don't believe that arguing about the blurry boundaries of the topic ban is going to help Martin, rather, it is going to result in reframing of this amendment, and a speedy close with a near consensus that the ban was violated. So how about we declare the topic ban violation a dead horse, and move on to the the question of whether a good faithed mistake on a blurry topic ban line is enough to warrant a 3 weeks ban, given that Martin has removed himself from the area as soon as a complain was filled and that his topic ban would expire in two weeks anyway? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 20:26, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Statement by sanctioning administrator

As the admin who imposed the block in question. I feel I have no choice but to oppose this appeal. I believe the block and its duration are entirely justified. This is the second block for a violation of the topic ban (and nobody is seriously attempting to deny the ban was violated). Blocks are generally escalated, so three weeks is perfectly proportional since the first block, just three months ago, was for a week. Evidently Martintg hasn't learned from the first block or isn't taking the topic ban seriously enough, which is disconcerting given that considerable disruption must have occurred for a topic ban to be impose in the first place. However, the above statement shows that they simply do not understand the reason for the block, which makes it impossible to contemplate unblocking, especially when they resort to wikilawyering and questioning my record in order to detract attention from what is clearly and unambiguously a violation of a topic ban. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:33, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Martintg

Question for Mkativerata (and others): given that the problem is related to Martin's understanding of the blurry topic ban, that his edits were good faithed, and that his contributions to other topic areas has been uncontroversial, wouldn't a more beneficial (to the project) solution be to reimpose the pre-blurry motion topic ban (from all EE-related articles)? This would allow Martin to keep contribution to the project for the next two/three weeks, in areas he has proven to be a good and uncontroversial contribute, and would prevent him from making any further problematic judgments in the blurry topic ban area (as far as I know, he was following his previous, wider topic ban without any problems, it is the post-motion blurry boundaries that have proven problematic). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 20:31, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

I have a question to admins, JH Mitchell in particular: in the last few days Offliner filed two very similar AE requests with respect to Piotrus and Marting. Piotrus was given a warning while Marting got blocked for 3 weeks. Why such a big difference? I hope there is no double standard here, however unintentional. Note that in the case of Piotrus, Offliner was prohibited from filing new AE requests for a while, based on excessive number of AE requests. Aren't you now sanctioning and vindicating Offliner's action at the same time? I think this sends mixed messages. - BorisG (talk) 07:59, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Piotrus is a former administrator. That may be played role in that some admins are reluctant to take action against him.--Dojarca (talk) 09:30, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Result of the appeal by Martintg

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

Copied from User talk:Martintg. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 18:22, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

The appellant appears to have retired. I think it would be pointless to hear this appeal unless Martintg changes his or her mind. So unless anyone has any objections I'll hat this in a little while and it can be re-opened if necessary. --Mkativerata (talk) 20:52, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Note: it's now quite clear from recent edits, including , that the appellant has not retired and wishes to continue with this appeal. --Mkativerata (talk) 01:39, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Uphold sanction. The edits were clearly inside the topic area of the ban, and any claims to the contrary appear specious. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:55, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

• I see the first edit cited in the prior report as being obviously against Martintg's topic ban. How can the Holocaust in Estonia not fall under the heading of a conflict? The duration of the block might be discussed, but the need for a block is evident. In a previous request, Martintg was forgiven for editing the Constitution of Estonia, where you might not think the article was about a conflict (though some commenters perceived one). EdJohnston (talk) 19:48, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
• I would have gone for two weeks instead of three, but I agree that there is an obvious violation here. T. Canens (talk) 20:19, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
• I agree with the block. I'm not at all convinced by the argument that this article fell outside the topic ban or was even ambiguous. However I do think the duration of the block should be scaled back to expire on 22 December. The block was properly logged as an EEML, not a DIGWUREN, block (there being no allegation that the edit itself was disruptive). The purpose of the block is therefore to enforce the topic ban, that purpose expiring on 22 December. That would pretty much match T. Canens' two weeks. --Mkativerata (talk) 20:23, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
  • @Piotrus - not an unreasonable suggestion (at least at first glance: I still agree with this block but I'm not averse to exploring alternatives). The problem is jurisdictional - perhaps I'm being overly lawyerly but the topic ban amendment was enacted by Arbcom and we don't have clear jurisdiction (at least within EEML) to restore the original ban. If Martintg voluntarily agreed to the ban scope expansion, it might help. It would also need the agreement of a clear consensus of uninvolved admins here. --Mkativerata (talk) 20:37, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
    • We can do it under the DIGWUREN discretionary sanctions, if we consider topic ban violations to be disruptive per se (and I think they are). T. Canens (talk) 20:54, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
      • Yes, I was reluctant to take that view but I'm willing to go along with it. --Mkativerata (talk) 20:59, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

• I support letting the block expire on 22 December, and don't bother with extending the topic ban. Martintg has been at this board quite a bit, and though I don't take the violation quite as seriously as Future Perfect I think action is needed. EdJohnston (talk) 22:52, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

• Why shouldn't the topic ban be extended? That sends out a very clear message that violations of AE sanctions will result in a short block and then you can carry on regardless. I'm not saying Martintg is gaming the system in such a way, but I feel we should be talking about an extension of topic bans for somebody who has twice been blocked for violating it and not a short block and then a removal of all restrictions, which effectively rewards the violation of the ban. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 00:40, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Piotrus

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Piotrus

User requesting enforcement

Dojarca (talk) 04:09, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Piotrus (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated

Misplaced Pages:EEML#Modified by motion 3 Piotrus is topic banned from articles about national, cultural, or ethnic disputes within Eastern Europe, their associated talk pages, and any process discussion about these topics until March 22, 2011

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. Edit to an article Poland-Russia relations restoring sections previously removed by Artem Karimov
2. Post in WP:POLAND discussion attempting to attract other users in support of his position

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

1. Warning by Coren (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
2. Warning by SirFozzie (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)

block, topic ban extention

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Piotrus restored the material which was previously removed by user Artem Karimov. The sections mention the Polish support for the Orange revolution in Ukraine, the Russian ban on Polish goods and the alleged Russian covert operations in Poland. I believe this clearly falls under the topic of national or ethnic disputes in Eastern Europe. Possibly fearing a topic-ban enforcement action, he then self-reverted but posted a message to the forum of Poland project inviting other users to support the restoration of the material. This is also a clear violation of his topic ban since it includes any discussion about the topic. Then Volunteer Marek arrived and restored the first edit by Piotrus.

It should be noted that Piotrus adopted an interesting tactic: making bold edits, then self-reverting and then asking other users to restore his previous edits. He employed this tactic also in Poland Anti-Religious Campaign (1945–1990) . After making an edit and self-reverting he then made a post in WP:POLAND asking other users to restore his previous edits:

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning Piotrus

Statement by Piotrus

Were to begin... by no means those diffs are "new"; all but one diffs Dojarca brings were discussed in the recently closed (~2 days ago) request by Offliner (closed with a warning to me, and Offliner was sanctioned for abuse of AE). The diffs can be found in this section, and my comment about them, in my statement there. To quickly summarize my reply, the diffs concern the cases were I possibly got too close to the topic ban, and self-reverted immediately. The remaining diff (to WikiProject Poland) is very much not breeching any policy or restriction, as I am allowed to bring any and all issues to WT:POLAND per this motion. As such, Dojarca's report is nothing but beating a dead horse (in the best case), and more of a rather crude attempt at block shopping.

Further, a review of Dojarca's contributions to Misplaced Pages namescape suggest a case of similar radicalization and wikistalking/wikihounding of selected opponents (Dojarca presented evidence during the EEML case) as with Offliner, but exaggerated due to Dojarca's major focus on discussions and dispute resolution (instead of contributing to encyclopedic content). More than half - more like three quarters - of his wiki namespace edits this year are related to filing complains and/or criticizing his adversaries from the EEML case. Since resuming active editing in mid-November (he was inactive since February), he made 7 edits to article namespace - and 28 edits to dispute resolution pages; his 2nd through 4th edits when he came back where at the arbitration amendment page...

• Dec 8: Critical comment at the previous AE request about me
• Dec 8: Critical comment at the recent AE request against Marting
• Nov 15: Filed an AE request against Marting (closed as no action)
• Nov 15: Critical comment at an amendment request by Biophys
• please note Dojarca has been inactive from February to November (exception being a single June edit)
• Feb 16: ANI post about an editor community banned, according to Dojarca, "as a result of wikistalking campaign by the so-called EEML cabal group"
• feel free to look further to see that this is an old, old pattern for that editor

I am really tired of getting dragged into this EE-related, bad faith/wikilawyering battlefield, and I hope that reviewing admins will consider some form of an interaction/AE ban similar to the one applied two days ago to Offliner (although considering the less constructive nature of Dojarca's contribution to this project, I'd suggest an appropriately increased length - perhaps it will make him shift his attention from combating others to actually building the encyclopedia). If some editors cannot understand the principle of WP:FORGIVE, it seems that they must be taught it the hard way. Thank you, --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 05:13, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

PS. Let me quote Jehochman's comment regarding Offliner's request, it seems to me even more applicable in this case: "I think it might be a good idea to apply WP:BOOMERANG to discourage this sort of WP:BATTLE behavior." --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 05:15, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

PPS. I'd also suggest placing Dojarca on this editing restriction. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 05:26, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Response to Mkativerata by Dojarca

Piotrus already has been warned multiple times and multiple times promised not to break his own topic ban. What's the purpose of getting another promise from him? The cited above edits are not on the edge of the topic area. They blatantly break the most uncontroversial variant of topic ban interpretation, so this could not be justified by assumption that he understood his topic ban narrower than it was intended. His tactic shows that he recognized well that he breaked the topic ban but attempted to game the system.

When you suggested to pardon Piotrus previous time, you argued that the violation is not repeated, but we can see that this statement was already then erroneous. That's why the 13-day old diff is relevant.

Even his response to this request with an unrelated personal attack on me shows that he is not getting the point.

Attempts to prohibit any arbitration enforcement against the EEML at best shows disrespect to the Arbcom and its adopted decisions.

I did not break any Misplaced Pages's rules thus I see no logical reason why should I be restricted. Yes, I encountered with Piotrus and the coordinated actions by the EEML previously, that's why I am so concerned. Or do you expect the enforcement requests only from uninvolved editors?

Re Piotrus. Why WP:FORGIVE should be only applied to EEML members? Where were the WP:FORGIVE invocations when you advocated long-term bans on other editors? Besides this WP:FORGIVE requires the user to apologize but you response here with attacks against me shows that you are far from apologizing.

Dojarca (talk) 06:42, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning Piotrus

This appears to be the second attempt to sanction Piotrus for the same edits. The first attempt has already been dealt with and resulted in a warning. Regardless of whether that was a correct result, I see no point in considering it again. Moreover I think such behaviour by the filing party is inapppropriate. I think they need to be warned not to do this again. - BorisG (talk) 07:51, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Previous request by Offliner was about his edits in Peace of Riga , completely unrelated article. Yes, this is another violation, not the same as the subject of the previous discussion.--Dojarca (talk) 08:28, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Result concerning Piotrus

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

Bringing a 13-day-old diff to AE - after the filer would have known that Piotrus was warned to be more conservative in his approach to his topic ban only a couple of days ago - is not helpful. In light of Dojarca's battle-cry here, I am inclined to apply a similar restriction to Dojarca as the restriction applied to Offliner above, in order to prevent the continued use of AE as a weapon. Given that I don't think any action should be taken against Piotrus on such an obviously stale diff, I'll hold this AE open for views on the less urgent matter of sanctions in respect of Dojarca. --Mkativerata (talk) 05:19, 11 December 2010 (UTC)