Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 212.183.140.57 (talk) at 07:45, 12 February 2011 (→Threats from Ludwigs2: (mis)conduct). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Archives

Index of archives

This page has archives. Sections older than 7 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III.

Longevity Arbcom: Just an Anti-Scientific Witch-Hunt?

Newyorkbrad,

Every time I come back to Misplaced Pages after being gone for a few days, thinking things will have simmered down and moved on to sensibility, I see that JJBulten and DavidinDC, in particular, have continued their "whack-a-mole" witch hunt.

It's incredulous how much JJBulten gets away with. As the most-involved party in the ArbCom, he is certainly NOT neutral...yet he is proposing a list of those who have conflicts of interest, naming himself (an editor for a far-right Christian website) as "not conflicted"?

There was an old word, called "recusal," that judges once used. Too bad Misplaced Pages editors don't know what that means. And I say this with a bit of irony, but if Misplaced Pages operated fairly and objectively, I wouldn't even have to be here.

Ryoung122 01:34, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Um, I'm familiar with the word recusal, As it happens, I wrote most of our article on the subject.

I believe that the drafting arbitrator will be posting a proposed decision within the next few days. He is the longest-serving arbitrator on the committee, and I am quite certain that neither he nor I nor any of the other arbitrators will fail to realize that an "index to parties" prepared by one of the parties himself need not be taken at face value. Newyorkbrad (talk) 01:37, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

On a separate, but related, note; User:Cam46136 seems awfully ducky to me. His participation here has entirely consisted of posting indiscriminate keep votes at AfDs and now posting inflammatory comments at the workshop page; I'm not sure if there's anything you can or should do about it (not being too familiar with ArbCom), but his presence at the Longevity ArbCom workshop page has been rather unhelpful. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 05:36, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Apparently I have upset you regarding the above ArbCom. I don’t quite know what you mean by being a bit “ducky” and you feel that my comments have been “inflammatory” and unhelpful. I certainly have strong opinions on the above, as I see it as censoring the works of science in the same tradition as the reaction to Charles Darwin and the Scopes Monkey Trial. There are important issues at stake, and I have expressed my opinion. What else am I supposed to do? Cam46136 (talk) 06:32, 10 February 2011 (UTC)Cam46136

Request for consensus

Newyorkbrad, the proposals by Kirill Lokshin have dramatically focused my Misplaced Pages interest to one point only: clearing my good name and the goodwill of my account privileges as far as WP's purposes, policies, and norms allow. You have a motivated editor here. I respectfully request that you and I discuss our difference of opinion over your belief that my behavior constitutes more than isolated instances.

I was never told that any of the listed incidents were bannable offenses. Having discovered the view of Kirill Lokshin less than 24 hours ago, referring essentially to good-faith behaviors that have never been presented as evidence, nor for sanctions in this way in any prior forum (albeit one arose in AN/3RR), I think it appropriate to seek consensus rather than to permit a suddenly revealed set of charges to sway opinions without discussion with the editor charged. Accordingly, please indicate your willingness to have a consensus-seeking, clarifying conversation with me, or to propose another arbitrator who can do so.

I can offer that voluntary topic ban (perhaps already begun?) and mentorship are viable. I can offer my good-faith failure to understand that these five charges (two revert events, one poor edit summary, allegedly "battleground" presentations of relevant information, a relatively modest set of consensus-based deletions, and a reliance on scientific sources in one article) constitute warned, sustained behavior, and my request for your helping my understanding, and my willingness to change. I have a few words about COI that might fit in good time, and many other words that will fit only as we two detail types see fit. But I am wrestling with a controversial combination: my implicit trust in the justice of ArbCom, and my extreme emotions relating to the past 24 hours' activity. I request your help. JJB 19:02, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

I have voluntarily banned myself from most editing, broadly but with some exceptions and with one contingency. I am open to discussion on strengthening this ban. I continue to request your assistance with reaching consensus with me on your and/or ArbCom's views, such as with reference to WP:RFAR/G#Workshop point 3. Elaboration as necessary. JJB 06:08, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Sorry to keep orange-flagging you, but I clarify my request, and my interpretation of silence, here. JJB 15:15, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm following the discussion; I'm holding off briefly to see if Kirill wants to comment first. More tonight or tomorrow. Newyorkbrad (talk) 19:31, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Saw you burning the midnight oil with SAQ, understandably. Looking forward to your response to the above. JJB 18:36, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

I can't speak for Kirill, but I think that the diffs listed in Kirill's workshop proposal are meant to be examples, rather than an exhaustive list of issues. My impression is that you and Misplaced Pages could definitely use a break from your continuing to edit in this area. If you want to edit in other areas (i.e., substitute a topic-ban for a siteban), you should clearly say so and perhaps identify what some of your other topic interests might be. It would be in your best interest to be brief in doing so. Regards, Newyorkbrad (talk) 02:11, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

YellowMonkey's RFC and some possible concrete suggestions

Hey

As you made the original statement for closing YellowMonkey's RFC I thought this was best to post here. There was further discussion which is linked from here which didn't wasn't particularly productive. Unfortunately YellowMonkey's friends gave the impression that they wanted no action taken against him and the other side (including myself) gave the impression that we essentially wanted to essentially continue a witch-hunt on him. This is less than ideal, especially as I now suspect that both "sides" positions are far closer in what we would consider sensible than we have admitted.

Furthermore there is the issue that when YellowMonkey returns given the severity of the points raised there is nothing he can say that will entirely excuse his previous actions and no clear guidance about what might be reasonable step for him to take, beyond avoiding all admin actions altogether. Additionally there is a large potential for lots of face to be lost, which as YellowMonkey is of an Asian background he probably wants to avoid, especially as it isn't totally clear what restrictions the community would consider sensible - and there is lots of potential for drama as well all round.

I thought that having something more concrete might be beneficial and I discussed it on my talk page with an IP editor who largely supported YellowMonkey and quite quickly we came to a reasonable set of suggestions which seem to be reasonable and which should avoid further issues with YM's admin actions. Do you have any comments about whether something like this is worth posting to the RFC now, or just ignoring until if/when he returns? -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 22:15, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Eraserhead1 has summarized the recent events sorrounding YM's case well. However, I have some other addtions. First, the witch hunt against YM has turned into a ugly and aggressive form. For example, some witch hunters have used sockpuppets to attack YM in RFC and, in the most recent, a witch hunter even asked YM to leave forever. Secondly, I think that YM has suffered a great loss of face and reputation in Misplaced Pages because of all ANI, RFC, and ARBCOM events which all went against him. YM now is like a footballer who got a yellow card, he will never can relaxatively contribute to Misplaced Pages as many eyes will closely monitor his contribution logs. So if we enforce YM more sanctions, they can be called harsh reactions or overreactions. After all, I personally ask ARBCOM that if you, by any chance, reopen the YM case, please treat him gently because two reason: his mistakes are not unfixable and his contributions are invaluable for Misplaced Pages.--115.75.158.147 (talk) 11:49, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

For clarity I'm haven't made this in an ARBCOM context. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 12:27, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Thank you both for your comments. I don't think it would be useful to post anything further to the RfC, or to discuss this further on-wiki, at this time. I hope that YellowMonkey chooses to return to Misplaced Pages, and am sure that if he does, all concerns can be resolved. Regards, Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:36, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Need access

NYBRAD, in building my evidence, I find I need access to this edit: . If its the one I think it is, it's the second of two outing threats made by Tom. But I need to be sure in order to finish supplying evidence on the outing issue. It was visible at the beginning of the case when I noted it. But upon returning to reread it, it is invisible. How can this be accomplished? Thanks. Smatprt (talk) 06:23, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

It is not an outing threat by Tom Reedy; it is a post that contains a significant amount of unverified but highly personal information *about* Tom Reedy. You may not have access to the contents of that edit. Risker (talk) 12:44, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Im sorry, I was referring to the edit summary here that was removed and is "by" Tom. Please let me know if this edit summary of Tom's is the same "embarrassment" wording as the one we are discussing at ArbCom.

Revision as of 22:58, 10 January 2011 (edit) Tom Reedy (talk | contribs) (edit summary removed)

Smatprt (talk) 14:43, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Smatprt, as Risker explains, we cannot provide you with the contents of the edit. However, we are aware of it, and will take it into account in reviewing the case. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:03, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Appeal posted

Hi, I wanted to alert you that I have posted my appeal to the evidence page. Please express my sincere thanks to the committee for allowing me to do so. Smatprt (talk) 19:58, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Remedy 3.1

I am a bit mystified by what is meant here - particularly in the header. The Community has deliberately avoided putting arbitrary time limits on when a restricted user can appeal, except in cases where an indefinite restriction is concerned. I'm not sure why it's being called a "qualification"; it seems to be a question of whether ArbCom wants an appeal after 90 days on particular grounds or whether they don't. Consequently, I would have thought that an appropriate header is "Appeal of Smatpart's sanction to BASC/ArbCom/whatever" rather than "Community sanction endorsed with qualification". Ncmvocalist (talk) 05:14, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

The header on remedy 3, if that is adopted, says that the community sanction is endorsed. The header on 3.1, if that's the one adopted, says that it's endorsed, but with one qualification (that we will entertain a request for review to the stated extent in 90 days). The header you propose, I think, would give undue weight to the limited right of appeal, while neglecting the fact that fundamentally, we would still be endorsing the sanction. As for your more substantive point, Smatprt chose to appeal his sanction to us, and we would be advising him when we would be prepared to entertain a renewed appeal and on what grounds. I don't know whether he would theoretically be allowed to appeal to the community back on ANI sooner than 90 days, but I certainly wouldn't recommend it if we adopt 3.1. (Of course, other arbitrators may propose still other alternatives if they wish). Regards, Newyorkbrad (talk) 05:27, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Editors in similar situations have, nevertheless, managed to be "advised" less formally, have they not? I think that generally, when a 1 year topic ban is imposed and nothing else has been specified, sooner than 6 months is not recommended...but how well the restricted user follows the recommendation is dependent on the user and/or that user's circumstances + reasons for appealing. Accordingly, this remedy does seem to be amending the terms of the sanction that were decided by the Community, both in theory and practice. Ncmvocalist (talk) 08:46, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

If it does, it's a very limited change; but arbitrators who think we should endorse the existing sanction with no comments or change at all should vote instead for remedy 3, which is one reason I offer them as alternatives. Regards, Newyorkbrad (talk) 11:32, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Why David in DC is part of the problem, not part of the Solution

When we see edits from David in DC like this:

"If the web-hosting for self-published data is still around in a year, you can draw one conclusion."

David in DC comment to John J Bulten

This is part of the problem, not part of the solution.

The Gerontology Research Group has been around longer than Misplaced Pages has. Misplaced Pages pages have copied the GRG, it has not been the GRG pushing to have Misplaced Pages "mirror" it.

David in DC's mis-use of the term "self-published" is, ironically, self-delusional.

I see no reason why the GRG should qualify as a "self-published" source. I, for one, do not "publish" the material. It's not me online "publishing" this material. Dr. Coles publishes it.

Also, the Misplaced Pages policy on "self-published sources" is in regards to non-notable entities that have failed to establish or attain mainstream community consensus, but are instead materials put up by "fringe" persons.

Checking the GRG material on supercentenarians, the GRG material on supercentenarians is used by Guinness World Records and quoted by the AP, APF, UPI, and major news publications such as the New York Times. We have seen the GRG be featured on the front page of the Wall Street Journal. The problem here is NOT the GRG. The problem here are editors such as David in DC who, in violation of Misplaced Pages rules and policies, replace reliable sources with their self-appointed, anti-GRG bias to decide for themselves what is or what is not notable. That is the problem. David in DC has literally "voted" for deletion for articles by claiming they are not sourced, even if they were. As usual, most of the time the information in the articles was correct, and the sources are often NOT the GRG. For example, Louisa Thiers:

http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi/f/findaid/findaid-idx?c=wiarchives;view=reslist;subview=standard;didno=uw-whs-mil00154

Newsclippings about and tributes to Louisa K. Thiers (1814-1926), credited as the oldest person to have lived in Wisconsin and the last true daughter of an American Revolutionary War soldier, also are included.

http://www.ebooksread.com/authors-eng/william-george-bruce/history-of-milwaukee-city-and-county-volume-2-cur/page-39-history-of-milwaukee-city-and-county-volume-2-cur.shtml

Not only did sources exist that predated the GRG and Misplaced Pages, but Ms. Thiers has been well-covered in the scientific literature as well as the popular press (indeed, mentioned in the very first edition of Guinness World Records 1955). Yet editors such as David in DC saw fit to delete the article on Louisa Thiers by claiming it was some kind of GRG conspiracy to inform the world about how long verified supercentenarians really live. Oh wait, it's that the purpose of encyclopedia articles on supercentenarians?

Ryoung122 19:35, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Here's yet more of the same from David in DC:

1) wider distribution of self-published, raw data (my oft-repeated "web-hosting" trope),

Excuse him, the GRG data is NOT "self-published," it is NOT "raw data."

If someone sends in an application ("my grandma is 110!") and the GRG reviews the data, saves the records, and publishes the photo, how can that be self-published? The GRG is a non-profit entity that is, in fact, governed by laws such as privacy laws, which means we keep actual documents sent to us by family members private.

I've been concerned, from the beginning, with David in DC's editing, in part because he had a personal third-party dispute with me that had nothing to do with supercentenarians and then he comes on here and starts deleting material, falsely claiming sources don't exist when they do, and using terms such as "raw data," "data dump," "self-published" and worse. In short, David in DC is allowing his personal opinions to get in the way of the facts.

Checking out, for example, this AFD:

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Tase_Matsunaga

   * Delete There are absolutely no sources in the article's text. Under the "External links" header there's a single link, to a Gerontology Research Group web page. There's some controversy about whether GRG pages are simply not reliable, whether they are biased against non-western centenarians or whether they are primary sources, prohibited for citation by WP:NOR. Whichever way one goes, this GRG web page cannot be the sole source for an article on Misplaced Pages. David in DC (talk) 22:10, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
   * Delete Actually a ton of sources are available, in that her death was widely and internationally reported . But that seems to me like an instance of WP:ONEEVENT. At any given time there is an oldest person in every country in the world, and as soon as they die they are replaced by another oldest person; does that really make every single one of them notable? I'm dubious. (Besides, as recent news events demonstrated   , Japan has no idea who its oldest citizens are, or whether they are still alive.) --MelanieN (talk) 21:32, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

As usual, David in DC made false aspersions ("no sources"), then suggested the GRG was not reliable, then suggested that the GRG was biased against non-Western sources. Yet checking the evidence, who helped to delete the articles on African supercentenarians and South American supercentenarians? David in DC and JJBulten. JJBulten even stated that once articles on African and South American supercentenarians were deleted, it would be far easier to accuse the GRG of being biased against minorities. All of this is easy to find on Misplaced Pages, if one had all the time in the world available to hunt it down.

Ryoung122 19:58, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Principle 5

No, I wanted to think about the implications of it. I was a little uneasy about a principle with now wikilinks, and perhaps suggest one. Cool Hand Luke 20:08, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Relatedly, on P11, what would you think of something like "... (1) the process of the sanction fell short of usual standards, ..." See RexxS' remarks. Cool Hand Luke 20:27, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Just a quick observation...

re your recent comment on the case page about taking the "Henri Coanda defamation" case, this could provide ArbCom with a chance to establish a new procedure – the equivalent of what would be the revoking of Special Leave in the Australian High Court, or the Improvidently Granted provisions in the US Supreme Court. :P EdChem (talk) 02:30, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

The committee has dismissed cases in the past after they were accepted and had actually been opened for a couple of weeks ... either because the dispute got resolved through another means, or because no one presented evidence. (I could cite some examples if anyone wanted.) So I'm afraid it wouldn't really be a precedent after all. Regards, Newyorkbrad (talk) 02:33, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

What a shame... a beautiful theory blown out of the water by an inconvenient fact.  :( EdChem (talk) 02:42, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

"An Inconvenient Fact"? Are we back to Climate change again? :) Newyorkbrad (talk) 02:44, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

LOL. :D Purely unintentional, I promise. EdChem (talk) 02:49, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Threats from Ludwigs2

Hello. Ludwigs2 left this threatening diff on my talk page . This conduct does not seem normal. Mathsci (talk) 03:04, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Very strange things are happening at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Amendment. It would be interesting to know why Mathsci has been allowed to

• bring a case initially without providing any evidence
• accuse quite unconnected users of abuse without notification
• make several statements which are, frankly, plainly untrue and contradicted by the record
• divert the case into discussion of completely unrelated matters

and all this with the tacit approval of arbitrators.

As far as Ludwigs2 is concerned, it might be noted that Mathsci has separately accused him of "tittle-tattle" and of being in collusion with two other editors, Zarboublian and Mikemikev. Again he has not troubled himself to provide any evidence of these assertions. It is not surprising that Ludwigs2 has taken the perfectly reasonable step of asking Mathsci to refactor.

This case continues some very disturbing behaviour on the part of Mathsci. He is plainly obsessed with the participants in the R&I case. This is the second ArbCom followup on Captain Occam that Mathsci has taken part in. Mathsci is obsessivelt following IP addresses he believes to be Mikemikev, and, most disturbing of all Mathsci has even posted what he claims to be some of Mikemikev's most inflammatory comments on Mathsci's own website and he linked them off his Misplaced Pages user page. Fortunately Charles Matthews showed him the error of his ways.

In summary then - all the disruptive behaviour of which Mathsci has accused Catpain Occam has a parallel in Mathsci's own conduct, and more. Why does ArbCom allow this disruption to continue? 212.183.140.57 (talk) 07:45, 12 February 2011 (UTC)