Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by WLU (talk | contribs) at 12:01, 25 February 2011 (→Fresh starts: or I can just delete this without reading it). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Hi stranger! :)

Hi, popping in to say hello and to let you know about something that might be of interest to you and your talk page stalkers. There is a new policy, guideline etc, not sure exactly which it's going to be, at Misplaced Pages:Town sheriff. I personally think that editors need to be aware of this since it is going to go to the village pump to see if it can be tested or acted on. I just want to bring this to other's attentions since I think this could be a big change. I'm not sure how or even if this is going to be advertised so that editors are aware of it so I think word of mouth is needed to make sure that editors keep an eye out. Anyways, I thought this would be of interest to you and I hope you will watch list it and keep an eye on the discussion and where it moves to and so on. We have to be involved in new policies and guidelines that are being suggested, even if it's just so that we are aware of them if they are in fact enacted.

On a personal note, I'll send you an email soon with the latest from here. I got out of the hospital yet again about a week and a half ago (not sure anymore, time and days are blending together these days). I've got a bad case of bronchitis which of course is what put me into the hospital. I was there again for four days but of course I had to share it with my beloved husband who is now battling with it too and so the sharing is going on again. I see the doc Monday and this time I will have him treat both of us so we can get rid of it. I can't afford nor stand going to the hospital again. Anyways, I'll fill you in on this garbage and some fun things in an email. (Disclaimer: My emails to WLU do not talk about the project, it's personal, ty). Talk to you soon, going to go lay down for awhile. Be well my friend, CrohnieGal 13:27, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Huh, sounds like a response to WP:CPUSH. Good on 'em. Send me an e-mail when you have time, between all the aggravating crap happening at acupuncture and real life stuff, I'm more likely to respond in depth via e-mail than wiki. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 14:48, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Pharmanoia

I have a possible home for parts of User:WLU/Pharmanoia at the newly created Misplaced Pages:Conflicts of interest (medicine), which I would love to have on your watchlist. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:55, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Feel free to migrate it. I'll add it to my watchlist, but these days I don't really check it that often. I'll have a read though, the title intrigues me... WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 14:25, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

My Talk Page

Hey WLU. I just wanted to respond to a short comment you made on my talk page about moving the discussion elsewhere. I have no problem with it at all, so by all means continue (What's my talk page for but discussion, anyway?). Sol seems to know a fair amount about the topic, and I think he could be a very useful contributer once acquainted with policy. In addition to welcoming him because he's new, I've been trying to put him on the right path to hopefully yield some quality sources and content for the page (which I agree could use work). Anyway, I appreciate you jumping in and helping with that too. A few editors on the page can be harsh, but I hope he's having a good experience despite them. All the best,   — Jess· Δ♥ 00:57, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

The same could be argued of PPdd, who is about 3 months ahead of Sol, but 6 months behind a mature contributor. Just to let you know, Sol has probably been frustrated with my responses more than once, because despite my insistence on sources, I do have a strong personal viewpoint (which I can substantiate, with reference to high-quality sources so yay for me). I would say Sol is still of the perspective that there is a "right" acupuncture page that mostly consists of what s/he was taught in school, and is far less critical than what I would see as the "right" page - and often acupuncture schools lack a rigorous skeptical or scientific education, with virtually no awareness of proper research methods, why a placebo is important, and why blinding is necessary (source; it's in there somewhere, I think Bausell writes in the introduction that CAM therapists are rarely trained on how to conduct proper research, which is why so much of it is bad and self-confirming). I'm definitely one of the "harsh" editors in general, but normally with people who push a POV and don't back down. Hot mess that the page is, aggravating that the participants are, at least everyone is being civil and not blindly reverting or edit warring. But they're still very raw, particularly if they think acupuncture.com is an adequate source when they haven't cited anythin by a sinologist. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 02:22, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

MEDRS and medical conclusions for primary studies published in alt med peer reviewed journals

Since I learned MEDRS from you, I thought you might be able to help. Two editors reverted my deletions for nonMEDRS of medical conclusions in primary source studies published in alt med peer reviewed journals. I undid their reversions, citing WP:BURDEN. They keep putting it back up, saying vaguely only that I do not understand MEDRS. Having done phil of sci and data analysis at UCLA, then at Stanford for 11 years, then at Caltech for four, then most recently at MIT, I at least have the potential for understanding MEDRS. The dispute keeps recurring and is discussed here. Maybe I am somehow wrong, but if I say this

"For example, the medical claims from the primary source study in 'Evidence-Based Complementary and Alternative Medicine (eCAM) is an international, peer-reviewed journal that seeks to understand the sources and to encourage rigorous research in this new, yet ancient world of complementary and alternative medicine.' does not need a tag to be deleted."

, then cite WP:BURDEN, and all I have is a response like this

"PPdd, you apparently have seriously misunderstood the MEDRS guideline. I suggest that you stop deleting material, from this or any other article. At the very most, you might consider tagging specific material with . Note that you should use this tag only when you think it unlikely that the material can be supported by a reliable source, not merely to indicate that no one has yet bothered to supply an WP:Inline citation after each and every sentence. I think you would do well to do a diligent search for such sources before tagging anything"

, it does not leave me with much to either understand or respond to. PPdd (talk) 07:11, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Swept under the welcome mat - link

Hello, WLU! Welcome to Misplaced Pages! LOL and welcome to the club. PPdd (talk) 20:14, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Meh, though I think the reaction to re-insert unsourced text and primary sources is a poor one, it is customary to not gut a page during an AFD. Of course, the current page is in no danger of being deleted or redirected, making it a rather futile reaction. It would have been nice to include the improvements, but there's a history feature, it's an easy fix. No point in getting worked up, I'll just wait for the AFD to be over and improve the page. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 12:05, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Needham

I have to apologize for some of my more combative posts on the acu talk page. This has been a frustrating process for me, as you well can tell. I also wanted to thank you for taking some time to get into the Needham. Much of my frustration is with the historical/theoretical scholarship guiding the main page. The sources of History and Theory which drive the main page must be based on rigorous and expert scholarship, i.e. must come from the sinological field. Needham brings that rigor, as well as Unschuld. Also, TJ Hinnrichs' book (a historical revue of chinese medicine) will be out soon, and should help immensely. As I have said, I am all for the criticism from Biomed, have at it! I just want the criticism to be leveled at the theory that is enumerated by experts in Sinology and that defined within the field (more from the former), not Biomedical experts and historians who waded into the sinological waters, some (like Houvassi) with the expressed aim of discrediting the practice. There is simply no dabbling in Sinology, it is just too difficult!Luke643 (talk) 05:26, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

If you mean Kavoussi, his article is a perfectly acceptable source to give minority voice to the idea that acupuncture has strong astrological roots. His argument is also supported by Needham & Lu as far as I have read, who do explore the astrological, cosmological, numerological and mystical roots of acupuncture. Kavoussi is a useful reference for a minor point, but shouldn't be portrayed as the whole history of acupuncture - that's where PPdd has been overreaching in my opinion. But he still should be included in the page, as should the many investigations and claims that acupuncture points, qi and meridians have no known biological or scientific equivalent. I will write the best page I can, that fairly describes TCM concepts, but right now I can't see it making acupuncture seem justified as a medical intervention beyond pain and nausea or something supported by modern science. It is perfectly valid to write an article discrediting a practice, if that practice can't be supported empirically. And Kavoussi isn't writing to discredit, he's writing to illustrate that acupuncture isn't a science-based practice with origins in Chinese scholars doing double-blind tests. Like all pre-modern people, they were mystics working on a body whose functions and functioning they didn't understand, using magic, divination and prayer. All valid for inclusion. Please don't think that just because I'm reading Needham the entire page will be written from an uncritical perspective, but I will do my best to be fair and attribute minority opinions as necessary. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 12:05, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

totally in agreement on Kavoussi (correctly spelled) being a valid minority opinion. I also agree that acupuncture isn't a science based practice. That is all totally fine with me. You may have misinterpreted my goals here, I am pushing for a more critical perspective, however one area of disagreement we seem to have is what precisely that means! However, I imagine we would tend to agree on much more then we disagree. I urge you however to temper your definition of 'pre-modern people' in regards to China and Chinese culture. In terms of History, Philology, Phonology, Heuristics, Hermeneutics, and Epistemology, the Chinese were equal to (with Hellenism) or far ahead (post Hellenism) of their counterparts worldwide. In the Qing the push toward rationalism and evidence based study in these fields dramatically increased the quality of scholarship. The question as to why a scientific revolution never happened in China is complicated, and best left to Nathan Sivin, who has devoted nearly his whole career to the study of Chinese 'science', some of his work is available through his own page at UPenn. But the important point is not to fall into the classic orientalist pitfall of assuming that everyone who picked up a needle or wrote a treatise on medicine was incanting spells, divining and praying. It would be faulty to suggest that even a majority were massively superstitious, though the liminality of Chinese culture never had the tension of Christian culture, making the division of sacred and profane much wider and significantly more vague, and so determining the level of mystical-magical practice is very difficult, even for experts, such as Sivin.

Surely there was a significant population (particularly elites) who leaned toward rationalism, humanism, and anti-superstition, from at least the time of xun zi, and that should not be ignored in favor of antiquated western essentialism. It is ahistorical and uncritical. Particularly because the writing of medical texts, that have formed the foundation of TCM in America, was performed by elites, who were far less likely to be magico-mystics than their fangshi-ish counterparts in the lower levels of society. Still not science, but that may not be the point. Chinese medical theory is a meta-physical theory based on observation of putatively universal correlations and correspondances, that formed into a cohesive system some 2000 years ago. (see Unschuld, Nan-Ching for more) It has been driven far more in its history by practical concerns (epidemic, regional health concerns) than by mysticism and religion, which I am sure you will discover in reading more.

Lastly I caution your use of the phrase "whose functions and functioning they didn't understand," as we in the biomedical sphere also do not understand much of human biology and physiology. An MD in many cases can still not tell you why you have a cold, or a migraine; will still prescribe ridiculous and un-tested medications, not to mention our almost imperceptible knowledge of the brain and brain function. So we clearly have a long way to go. The methodology of Science is not designed to destroy and eliminate everything it cannot prove, it is only to make strong claims of the evidentially backed concepts, and to make no claims of those not backed. Holding up minority opinions as root facts is a classic straw man technique designed to dismantle, and is therefore a-scientific. So the acu page, an encyclopedia entry after all, must be approached carefully from a variety of postions, not just the strong MEDRS position, which should at times be subordinated to the non med RS (a point we mostly agree on).Luke643 (talk) 14:11, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

No culture came close to the knowledge available to the modern culture, post-scientific revolution. It doesn't matter what the Chinese were doing, did, or knew - they were prescientific and even if using effective interventions, their explanations were mystical nonsense. This is universally true - the scientific method is a method. Anyone can use it, no-one did before it was developed. The scholarship systematized the nonsense, but it was still nonsense and Needham & Lu make this very point. Not everyone may have been using magic, but none came anywhere near close to what was actually happening. A coherent system of nonsense is still nonsense, ask any schizophrenic. I'm extremely unlikely to support the idea that China magically knew more about the world than anyone else without a really good set of sources. The Romans were great engineers, probably better than anyone else in their day - but that doesn't make them right. Rationalism isn't the same as empricism, the Greeks, Chinese, Popes and Arabs were all "rational" in their own way - but still wrong. Evidence? They still haven't found any reason to believe in acupuncture points or meridians, and there's not much reason to think they ever will. They still haven't found any good evidence acupuncture is good for much beyond pain relief and nausea. It's not a disease-modifying intervention.

Your claims that we don't know much about biology is rather staggering considering what we do know, particularly in comparison to any culture before the scientific revolution. Not knowing anything right now only means there is more work to do - but what we will learn will stand up to scrutiny or be replaced with a more accurate picture as methods and testing converge on the truth.

And as I've said many times - the failings of modern medicine, if you can consider a lack of perfect knowledge a failing rather than merely part of the journey, do not in any way justify a nonscientific endeavor. It's a false dilemma, it's not "either science is right or acupuncture is right". Science is usually right because of it's method. Acupuncture, if it is "right", is "right" by happenstance. Science will strip away the non-essential parts of it, discover any grains of truth to be found, and integrate them into a true understanding of the world. The methodology of science very much is designed to destroy claims it cannot prove, because it is up to the claim maker to demonstrate their claim has merit. You want acupuncture points to exist? Prove it, in a fashion that can be replicated by anybody. If they're there, then they can be demonstrated by anyone with the right knowledge. The fact that you don't need to pierce the skin, you don't need to needle specific points, you don't need to believe in qi or meridians, you don't need to use needles at all, is certainly evidence against the hypothesis that acupuncture was anything but a dramatic placebo, or nonspecific effect. If it survives, I'm pretty sure it'll be as a low-cost, low-training intervention where all the rigmarole about qi, meridians, points are discarded in favour of needling the least dangerous part of the body.

But whatever, I'll base my edits on the policies, guidelines and sources. This debate is kinda like playing "CAM bingo", but accomplishes very little. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 00:03, 25 February 2011 (UTC)