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albanian etymology of the name macedonia
The most reasonable and logical explanation regarding the etymology of the name of the Ancient Macedonia is found in the language of Illyrians and Epirotes, who were the ethnic inhabitants of Ancient Macedonia. The very name of Macedonia, formerly known as ‘Emathia,’ derives in all probability from the Albanian word “E Madhia”, meaning “The Greatest”.(Larned et al 1922) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.107.223.56 (talk) 14:34, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
- In what way is that the most reasonable and logical explanation? Sounds like a fringe theory to me. Simanos (talk) 18:34, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
- Indeed. These kinds of folk etymologies shouldn't be taken seriously. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:36, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
- Are you imposing your personal “opinion” here …! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.107.222.133 (talk) 20:31, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
- She then went to her house, the daughter of Zeus, Aphrodite, but Hera darted down and left the peak of Olympus; on Pieria she stepped and lovely "EMATHIA", and sped over the snowy mountains of the Thracian horsemen, even over their topmost peaks, nor grazed she the ground with her feet; and from Athos she stepped upon the billowy sea, and so came to Lemnos, the city of godlike Thoas.Homer Iliad Book 14 line 193 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.107.222.133 (talk) 20:40, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
- And? Yes, there was a region called Emathia (just like the Greeks have been called, Danaans, Achaean, Argives, Greeks, Romoioi, Yunan, Yavana, etc). That bit of Homer you quote does not support your "E Madhia" theory. Simanos (talk) 21:04, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
I think I prefer the theory of 'Ma Sedonia' which is a combination of ancient anglo-saxon and hellenised Latin meaning 'My sheets'. Though both I and User:95.107.223.56, could be completely off-side on this one... Politis (talk) 21:49, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
- Hehe nice one :p Simanos (talk) 20:37, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
Thanks but other variant also the greek one does not suit that is why ..becuase Emathia (greatness in Albanian ) was example of bravery of its people..
The Macedonian kingdom was created as a result of uniffication of illyrian & thracian tribes into an central kingdom, wich began hardly to conquest other tribes and their lands. If we looked at Ptolemey description about Macedonian territorial situation, we will see that Macedonia covering into illyrian tribes. According to him, into Macedonia covering these tribe: Taulants, Elimiots, Orestidians, Albanians, Eordians, Paionians, Dasaretians, Lyncestian. For more detail see 'PTOLEMAEI, GEOGRAPHIA, BOOK III, The Place when situated Macedonia'.
'Once a time Macedonia was called Emathia, according to name of Emathi, wich was first example of bravery in these place" (M.JUNIANI JUSTINI< EPITOMA HISTORIACUM PHILIPPICARUM POMPEI TROGI, Book VII, —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.107.219.188 (talk) 06:34, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
- I'm sorry my IP hopping friend but your English is too poor and your sentences are somewhat unintelligible. Your interpretation of ancient texts is also quite poor. Simanos (talk) 20:37, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
- I understand...! Even your name Simanos has less identity then my IP , my friend..
- What? That doesn't make sense either. Anyway I'm not about to be dragged into a long talk with you and your fringe theories. Simanos (talk) 13:29, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
- I understand...! Even your name Simanos has less identity then my IP , my friend..
What is exactly that you do not understand ...?! The relation of word Emathia ( meaning great in Albania) with territory expansion and bravery of its people ..It is so simple ...! What is the meaning of word Emathia in other version ..ancient “Greek” for instance, I wonder? Thanks for your comments anyway..! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.107.222.252 (talk) 21:27, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
- What I said was that your English was too poor. Do you doubt that? As for the etymology of Emathia read that article for it (Sandy terrain or something). This is the Macedonia article anyway Simanos (talk) 13:29, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
- No i doubt you and the name "sandy" for ancient macedonia..Cheers ..! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.107.214.87 (talk) 18:18, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
Concensus among historians that Ancient Macedonians were a Greek tribe
^ Victor Ehrenberg, The Greek State, Methuen, (July 2000); Malcolm Errington, A History of Macedonia, University of California Press, February 1993; John V.A. Fine, The Ancient Greeks: A Critical History, Harvard University Press, 1983; Jonathan M. Hall, Ethnic Identity in Greek Antiquity, Cambridge University Press, 1998; N G L Hammond, A History of Greece to 323 BC, Cambridge University, 1986; Archer Jones, The Art of War in Western World (University of Illinois Press, 2000); Robin Osborne, Greek History, Routledge, 2004; Jacques Pirenne, The Tides of History Vol. 1, E. P. Dutton, 1962; Michael M. Sage, Warfare in Ancient Greece, Routledge; Chester G. Starr, A History of the Ancient World, Oxford University Press, 1991; Hilding Thylander, Den Grekiska världen, (Svenska humanistiska förbundet, 1985); Arnold J. Toynbee, The Greeks and Their Heritages, Oxford University Press, 1981.
Before some editor says the protecting lines 'this has been done to death..' If there is a Concensus ie most historians call Ancient Macedon a Greek state with Greek origins as even the Ancient Macedonians article states clearly, why do we follow any other agenda on Wiki? The new country macedonia is allowed to be called such on wiki according to certain editors..because most people call the country Macedonia. So if most historians agree Ancient Macedon was greek in origin and culture, why does this article call it an ancient kingdom strongly omitting the word 'Greek'? Is it because a few historians are not sure and there are more pro Republic of Macedonia editors than neurtal or Greek? Reaper7 (talk) 00:05, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
it should be called ancient Greek kingdom. Just as the article on Alexander the Great calls him an Ancient 'Greek' King.... The sickness of modern day slavs living in their so called 'republic of macedonia' that is trying to erase history and trying to convince people that 2500 years of history is wrong is spreading onto wikipedia and completely perverting history. I hope reason and logic will prevail. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.209.149.42 (talk) 08:28, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
- We do too. However wikipedia is an encyclopaedia and as such it tries to maintain a neutral point of view. A Macedonian (talk) 08:38, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
It is not a point of view that Ancient macedonians are greek, it is a Fact. Reaper7 posted many sources above. Not to mention, that without stating that this article is about the ancient greek macedonians, people will be confused and think that this article has something to do with ancestors of the modern 'republic of macedonia'. Should we instead create a page to disambiguate between 'Ancient Macedonians (Greek), and Ancient Macedonians (Republic of Macedonia)?' This has been going on way too long on wikipedia and is still unresolved. I have come to this page to learn about Ancient Macedonians, and I THOUGHT I was reading about people from the Republic of Macedonia, but it appears that this article is about ancient greeks (such as alexander the great, whos wikipedia page calls him a 'Greek' king on the first line. What can the editors of this page do to fix this problem?
I am Slavic Macedonian from Republic of Macedonia. I came to this page to read about Ancient Macedonia so I can learn about my ancestors, but it is just about ancient Greeks. Why does it not state this on the fist line or paragraph? I have to spend quite some time to read this article, and then I realize that it has nothing to do with the Modern day Republic of Macedonia, but it's called 'Ancient Macedonia', and describes Greek people, greek kings, and greek rulers. This is an Insult to modern day Slavic Macedonians like me. Either call the ancient Macedonians Greek, or call them Slavic, but don't call them just 'Macedonian' because then it needs to be disambiguated, and if you are not going to disambiguate it in the article, then it is written poorly. Does anyone disagree that by not stating the ancient macedonians are greek we are ignoring thousands of years of history and sources?--173.209.149.42 (talk) 10:27, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
- You must be kidding, right? Anyways, there are no other ancient Macedonians so what you are proposing is anyways not reasonable...GK (talk) 21:38, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
- GK1973, There is a country called 'Republic of Macedonia'. There is also a Greek land known as 'Macedonia'. Like it or not (I don't), there are two cultural and political Macedonia's. Ergo, the question of ancient Macedonians from the Republic of Macedonia is valid. The question of Ancient Macedonians from the province in Greece is also valid. There are therefore two Ancient Macedonias. Almost everyone would think of the people living in Greece in the vinicity of Pella when thinking about the term 'Ancient Macedonia'.
- BUT, since a country called Macedonia exists that is not from this geographical location or shares its history, and is not made of people of the same culture or identity, it too must have an Ancient history, as there were ancient people living in the land near the Vardar river... you agree, right?
- Do you see what I'm getting at here? There needs to be a page for Ancient Macedonia (Greece), and Ancient Macedonia (Republic of Macedonia), with 'Ancient Macedonia' pointing to a disambiguation page linking to either.
- The other alternative of course is that Ancient Macedonia is described as a Greek kingdom in the lead of this page, so there is no confusion. The 'Greek' identifier obviously would not be needed if the Country Macedonia did not exist, but unfortunately that is not the case, and as much as I would like it not to be there, it must be added to maintain the editorial integrity of this page.... Sadly it seems like a group of anti-greek POV editors has unfairly editorialized this page. If anyone disagrees please feel free to discuss. I am in the process of Registering an account and making 10 posts elsewhere so that I can edit this page as it appears to be protected.--174.117.97.72 (talk) 02:09, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- Since the current text is the result of much previous discussion and consensus, you should not attempt to edit the text without discussing it here and getting a consensus first. Based on past discussions, however, don't get your hopes up on pushing "Greek" into that first sentence. --Taivo (talk) 04:02, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- Is this Draganparis or his "son"? Can't recall the IP. Simanos (talk) 01:29, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- It is an IP from Toronto, so I don't think that it could be DP... anyways, dear IP, this issue has been discussed extensively and we have reached a widely accepted consensus. I would advise you to be very careful regarding any changes you might want to do in historical articles regarding the ancient Macedonians as they are monitored by many users of many opinions who have participated in countless discussions. Try to avoid argument such as the ones you used above regarding how people might get perplexed from the many Macedonians and refrain from characterization of the editors. Try to stick to Misplaced Pages rules in any change you will try to make and be ready to see many reverts if you get too bold and challenge acceptable consensus or make it political. Like Taivo said, it would be advisable to first discuss here any changes you would like to see but base your proposals on current English language usage and sources. Furthermore, the fact that you started this discussion by claiming to be an ethnic Slav Macedonian, a fact that might be true but seems awful strange if you are, does look like you want to talk politics instead of history... 00:44, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- I might be mistaken, but I think our friend was looking for information on ancient Paeonia. Furthermore, he might be looking for stuff in the fragments of ancient history of territories included in what was once referred to as upper Macedonia, but not referred to as just "ancient Macedonia", namely Elimeia, Eordea, Orestis, Lynkestis, Pelagonia and Deuriopus - So there, I linked to them all for any passer-by's convinience. Shadowmorph 07:37, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
Should Early History and Legend be further expanded, and corrected?
I have only two remarks to pose:
1. For instance, instead of the short and unclear passage:
"The lands around Aegae, the first Macedonian capital, were home to various peoples. Macedonia was called Emathia (from king Emathion) and the city of Aiges was called Edessa, the capital of fabled king Midas. According to legend, Caranus, accompanied by a multitude of Greeks came to the area in search for a new homeland took Edessa and renamed it to Aegae. Subsequently, he expelled Midas and other kings off the lands and he formed his new kingdom."
You could put the following extract from "The Hellenism of the Ancient Macedonians" by Apostolos Dascalakis, University of Athens(Institute for Balkan Studies, Thessalonike, 1965):
"The founding of the Macedonian kingdom and the ancestor of its royal house are both veiled in the mists of prehistoric Greek antiquity. Greeks belonging to the 5th century B.C. city-states first came into direct contact with their brethren who were isolated among the barbarians north of Olympus and Pindus, mainly after the Persian Wars (499-479 B.C.) and more so during their subsequent quarrels during the Peloponnesian War (431-404 B.C.), many events of which took place on Macedonian soil among the Chalcidice colonies.
But this was some centuries distant from the foundation of the state of Macedonia. During the centuries, poetic legends and traditions had arisen and given the classical Greeks a basis on which to account for and interpret Macedonia's historical past. Herodotus and Thucydides, the foremost historians of the 5th century, limit themselves to these traditions whenever they happen to speak of the Macedonians' past and the foundations of their realm, while Euripides makes of the Macedonian legend, as he does of others belonging to Greek prehistory, a subject for dramatic poetry. Historians, chroniclers and biographers from the middle of the 4th century on, caught up in the dazzle of events almost beyond human ken, which occurred during the reigns of Philip II and Alexander the Great, destined to change the fate of Greece and the whole course of her history, had but to collect, or on occasion to link in a more fascinating way, the legends and traditions concerning the founder of the glorious, and by then renowned Argaed dynasty, to the beginning of the state, for which so splendid a destiny has been reserved.
As was natural, modern historical research has been devoted since the last century to studying this question of the founding of the Macedonian kingdom and the origin of its royal house with the keenest interest, the more so for its close affinity with the whole ethnological subject of ancient Macedonia and its people.
Greek popular legends of antiquity, which reflect beliefs and in many cases facts whose historical root is lost in centuries past, attributed divine origins to the most prominent royal houses of the prehistoric and early historical period. Traditions developed from these myths placed the kingly house of Aegae (Vergina) in Macedonia among the Heracleid Temenids, thus linking it "warp and woof" with the full cycle of archaic Hellenism's sagas.
It can be considered certain that the kings of Macedonia did not shape these traditions of their descent from the Heracleids of Argos, drawing them from Greek literature of classical times, nor made them up to imitate the myths current in Greek cities about the divine descent of their most illustrious regal families, but had cherished them, handed down from one generation to another since time immemorial, as the Lares and Penates of their hearths and folk. In fact, when shortly before the Persian Wars the kings of Macedonia appeared on the Greek historical scene, they themselves announced their origin, proudly proclaiming the Argaead legends as their very own, unquestionably so on the ground of a family tradition centuries old."
2. And instead of the vague reference to Herodotus' Histories such as the following:
"According to Herodot, it was Dorus, the son of Hellen who led his people to Histaeotis, whence they were driven off by the Cadmeians into Pindus, where they settled as Macedonians. Later, a branch would migrate further south to be called Dorians."
You could provide the full text with a clear reference such as the following:
Excerpt from Herodotus' Histories (1.56.1-3)- A. D. Godley, Ed. Cambridge. Harvard University Press. 1920.:
"When he heard these verses, Croesus was pleased with them above all, for he thought that a mule would never be king of the Medes instead of a man, and therefore that he and his posterity would never lose his empire. Then he sought very carefully to discover who the mightiest of the Greeks were, whom he should make his friends.
He found by inquiry that the chief peoples were the Lacedaemonians among those of Doric, and the Athenians among those of Ionic stock. These races, Ionian and Dorian, were the foremost in ancient time, the first a Pelasgian and the second a Hellenic people. The Pelasgian race has never yet left its home; the Hellenic has wandered often and far.
For in the days of king Deucalion1 it inhabited the land of Phthia, then the country called Histiaean, under Ossa and Olympus, in the time of Dorus son of Hellen; driven from this Histiaean country by the Cadmeans, it settled about Pindus in the territory called Macedonian; from there again it migrated to Dryopia, and at last came from Dryopia into the Peloponnese, where it took the name of Dorian.2
1 Deucalion and Pyrrha were the survivors of the Deluge as known to Greek legend.
2 The localities mentioned in the story of the migration into the Peloponnese are all in northern Greece."
This text should give a clear picture that it is not the ancient Macedonians that are discussed within this passage by Herodotus, but the Dorians, who were a wandering tribe, unlike the Ionians. Herodotus here discusses the origin of the two Greek races. The roots of the ancient Macedonians should be discussed within a wider context, most probably related to the native people of the region prior to the Greek tribes, known as Pelasgians to the ancient Greeks. After the first migration of Semitic tribes in Greece, the Danaos from Egypt (ref.Martin Bernal, Black Athena)around 1720 BC, which coincides with the Hyksos period in Egypt, some of the native tribes got assimilated, which created the Ionian race, while those who would not accept the new rulers from Egypt, moved to the north. This is where the legend about Caranus comes in focus, since this legendary king took his people from Argos in Peloponnese, which is where the Danaos established their rule, across the Olympus, which was a sacred mountain to the natives before it was used by the newcomers. According to the plays of Aischylos and Euripides, written around the time of Herodotos' Histories, the Pelasgians were the indigenes, encountered and somehow overcome by Danaos in the Argolid:"Danaos, the father of fifty daughters, on coming to Argos took up his abode in the city of Inachos and throughout Greece (Hellas) he laid down the law that all people hitherto named Pelasgians were to be named Danaans."
Therefore, the origin of the ancient Macedonians can be traced back in the pre-Greek cultures of the Balkans, such as the Great Mother Goddess cult, the Dionysian Mysteries, and the 'barbaric' - as often referred to by the most prominent Greeks such as Demosthenes - peoples to the north. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Petro Invictus (talk • contribs) 02:37, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
- I'm afraid what you are saying here it's just WP:OR. Furthermore, Black Athena is a highly controversial work and it's not considered a reliable source. Can you provide a reliable source for your claims? A Macedonian, a Greek. (talk) 06:15, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
Alternative views: Meaning of the name Macedonia
The Great Mother Goddess was a central cult to the ancient Macedonians,know as Dione at Dodona, the famous Oracle of the ancient world. This cult, now confirmed by a significant amount of archeological findings particularly in the northern regions of Republic of Macedonia, had spread all across the Balkans and is considered to have been the first cult of the indigenous population.
If we are to explain the etymology of the name 'Macedonia', which has its roots in Roman or Greek historiography, we can assume that it derives from "the ancient Greek word μακεδνός (Makednos). It is commonly explained as having originally meant 'a tall one' or 'highlander', possibly descriptive of the people." Unfortunately, the ancient Macedonians were never depicted as tall people, neither have there been bones of tall people excavated anywhere in Macedonia. They were of medium height, as noted by many historians.
Instead, we could assume that the name Macedonia (Makedonia) could be related to its indigenous cult, and since Dione represented the Goddess, if we break 'Make-Donia' and compare it with 'Make-Dione', the result is Mother Goddess, 'Make'corresponding with 'Majka' or 'Makea'(foster/mother) in Slavic languages. Interestingly in Hindi the translation for "Mother's World" sounds something like: "Makedonia"! Check it out! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.29.25.212 (talk) 05:13, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
- Yet more WP:OR! A Macedonian, a Greek. (talk) 06:16, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
- Ok, not meaning to WP:BITE but dear anonymous, interesting personal views you have here. However those have no backing to be included in any article. If I am not mistaken, the standard accepted etymology is provided in the article. Consider also that is because Makednos etymology appears in Homer. Shadowmorph 07:18, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
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