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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by O Fenian (talk | contribs) at 10:29, 3 March 2011 (→Recent changes). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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This article was nominated for deletion on 25 January 2007. The result of the discussion was Keep.

References

Some more references, not yet used.

Tyrenius 06:42, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Volunteer and informer or agent

Which came first. Was he in the IRA and then agreed to inform, or did he agree to inform and then join the IRA (which some texts indicate, by saying he "infiltrated" the IRA)? Tyrenius 07:10, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Whatever his initial motives, it is plain that McGartland became committed to thwarting the IRA which takes him out of the simple, pejorative informer category. If he had been a German passing information about the Nazis to the Allies, calling him an informer would be inconceivable.

He is called an informer by secondary sources. O Fenian (talk) 11:29, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

And an agent by others. You know very well, O Fenian, that 'informer' is a pejorative POV term. Anyway the article says he infiltrated the IRA. That is not what informers do but it is what agents do. The article is at least more balanced and the tone less slanted so just leave it be. The lives saved aspect is derived from within the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.143.63.192 (talk) 16:05, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

You have been warned enough times about adding unsourced commentary. Also agent implies some sort of legitimacy, rather than a traitor who sold out for money. With 55 results for "IRA agent" versus 556 results for "IRA informer", it is obvious which is the term generally used. O Fenian (talk) 18:05, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

How could he be a traitor, O Fenian, if he was not in the IRA when he made the decision to infiltrate it? Your word count tells us nothing about Misplaced Pages's need for neutrality. Agent it must be. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.158.161.39 (talk) 12:56, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

It tells us what he is described as by a factor of ten. Please stop edit warring against consensus on multiple articles, you are being disruptive and gaming the system. O Fenian (talk) 13:20, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Here are the first 2 lines of the article: "Martin McGartland, born in 1970, is a former Provisional Irish Republican Army informer who joined the organisation in order to pass information to British security forces. When he was exposed as an informer in 1991..." The word informer or information appears three times. Once would do especially as 'informer' is a pejorative term and McGartland is notoriously litigious. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fynire (talk • contribs) 21:53, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

The word informer appears twice, not three times. The second time is necessary as "was exposed in 1991" makes little sense. Informer is a neutral term for someone who informs, which is what he did. It does not take a trained legal expert to tell you any litigation being brought over being called an informer (which is what reliable sources call him) would be laughed out of court. Or do you think he would complain to newspapers about Misplaced Pages? O Fenian (talk) 23:43, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

You know as well as I do O Fenian that the term informer is not neutral in Ireland but my first objection is to the overuse of the word in just two lines, be it informer (twice) or passing information (same effect). Once will do. Being 'exposed' is entirely understandable in the context. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fynire (talk • contribs) 14:31, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

So you object to this tout being called an informer despite him being called that by hundreds of reliable sourcess, yet you insist on calling Eamon Broy an informer with zero reliable sources? I can see what is going on here.. O Fenian (talk) 15:26, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

You don't need any more sources to tell you that both Broy and McGartland were in the business of passing information to their supposed enemies so both were informers or double agents. It is just a fact. Live with it.--Fynire (talk) 20:26, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages does not work that way. O Fenian (talk) 09:43, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

You do not need to source that Broy was an informer, it follows from the description of his actions. And Misplaced Pages does not work through pejorative over statement. One 'inform'Fynire (talk) 10:58, 18 September 2009 (UTC) mention is enough if you have to have your way.

Yes you do need to source that, it is how Misplaced Pages works. O Fenian (talk) 11:03, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

• There are multiple reliable secondary sources that call him an informer.BigDunc 17:28, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Pejorative in Ireland you say? And McGartland's self-aggrandising novel defines informer as "A person who passes information to the police", which he did! No evidence of it being pejorative, except the word of someone who believes the BBC are not neutral and can therefore be ignored as lacking any semblance of neutrality. O Fenian (talk) 17:37, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Agree, that an editor believes that the BBC are not a neutral is without doubt pushing some kind of agenda. BigDunc 17:52, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I know it is a pejorative term. The tag team you belong to know it is a pejorative term. Think of Liam O'Flaherty's novel. O Fenian calls him a tout so he is parti pris with a giant agenda. By the way the BBC is not by definition neutral and often isn't. My concern is your ramming your bias home with three uses in a few lines.

The deal is one use in the opening paragraph.--Fynire (talk) 21:35, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I for one am also of the opinion that not everything printed/reported by the BBC is neutral but here on wikipedia it is a verifiable, reliable source and thats all that counts here. BigDunc 21:39, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

So you "know", despite Sean O'Callaghan using it to describe himself and McGartland giving a simple definition for it? I simply choose words that I would use in everyday language, and the word "tout" is not exclusive to republicans either. Your own dislike of factual non-pejorative terms is no reason to insist on poor English. As said before, simply "exposed" is unclear wording, and I see no reason why it should be changed to suit your bias. Obviously you need to actually introduce him as an informer prior to that, so the first one is also needed. Feel free to suggest a rewording of the part about passing information if the third use offends you so much, I am all ears. However your deal demand is not acceptable. O Fenian (talk) 21:45, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Recent changes

I have once again removed highly point-of-view and unsourced changes. To document one of the most egregious examples, "Martin McGartland was a special Agent and was not and never was a member of the IRA". Really? Exactly what contract was he under? He makes no such claim in his book, he was a standard paid informer. As for him never being a member of the IRA, completely contradicted by his book. The word "agent" is also misleading, since its meaning in English varies substantially according to location. He was an informer, say RTÉ, the Guardian, the Independent, the Belfast Telegraph, the BBC, the Irish Independent, 4NI and countless more, including senior Special Branch officer Ian Phoenix who describes McGartland as an informer in McGartland's own book! This article is not being written in the way McGartland would like himself to be described, not when all those use the wholly accurate label of informer. The lead notes his motiviation for joining the IRA, so the wholly incorrect "was not and never was a member of the IRA" is not necessary. If the rest needs to be discussed, so be it, but I have already demonstrated how deep the problems with the edit run. O Fenian (talk) 10:26, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

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