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Talk:Carpathian Mountains

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Comment

The city of Vác (Vacz in the text) is about 200km away from the Bakony mountain. So if Vác is OK., then the mountain's name is Börzsöny (or Pilis?), If the Bakony mountain is OK, then the name of the city is Veszprém. i will look after. Janos

Miles and meters looks awkward on the same page, especially abbreviation "m." looks confusing - meters or miles. Since Carpathian mountians are in Europe I would propose to use meters-kilometers, maybe also miles in brackets.

Should perhaps the lunar mountain range be given a separate article? Same with various other lunar geographical features which are named for terrestrial ones and/or philosophers, scientists... --Brion 08:25 Oct 4, 2002 (UTC)
Some of them should be fairly easy to disambiguate, eg. Copernicus crater. But I'm not sure what to do about the Carpathian Mountains, both features have the same name and are the same sort of thing. Fortunately, there probably won't be very extensive information about any of the mountain ranges on the Moon available at this time. Bryan
Lunar Carpathian Mountains? Carpathian Mountains (Moon)? --Brion 08:54 Oct 4, 2002 (UTC)
I'd go with the second (Moon) one, for consistancy. Bryan


False etymology for Carpathian deleted

The name is derived from the Slavonic word Chrb, which means mountain-range.


That's silly. The Dacian tribe of carps is closer phonetically and they lived in these mountains (the eastern slopes, in current Eastern Moldavia) long before the slavs arrived. Bogdan 20:34, 27 Sep 2003 (UTC)

"...the Indo-European word "korpata" which means mountain or rock." There is no such Indo-European word or root, is there? The google hits all refer to this statement here at Misplaced Pages (not aiding our credibility). "Korpata" appears through google only on Slavic-language sites. What's up? Can we correct this? Wetman 19:26, 1 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Of course Korpata is the Slavic version, but it is based on an Indo-european root (probably something like "krpa"). It also appears in some non-Slavic languages, more exactly some Indian languages. I saved this information somewhere but I can't find find it right now. I'll post it tomorrow. OK ? Bogdan | Talk 20:57, 1 Feb 2004 (UTC)
err... I lost that link about that Indian language. Anyway, I found that in Armenian (which is thought to be related to Thracian), "k'ar" means stone and in Albanian it's "gur". Bogdan | Talk 13:10, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Actually, in Albanian also, "karpë" means "rock". Bogdan | Talk 18:53, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)

There is attested a Cuman word 'kerpic' that meant 'baked brick'. Just thought I'd throw another one in the pot. No connection implied. James 007 04:48, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The name of the Carpathians was used long time before the Cumans came. Anyway, it is pretty silly to name some mountains "the Brick Mountains". On the other side, the Rocky Mountains is a pretty common name. Bogdan | Talk 11:50, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I agree. I just wanted to add another word, because I had on file some Turkic words that have seeming cognates among Indo-European. The term 'Karpates' (>carpathian) dates back at least to Ptolemy (ad 85-165) and there is no way there can be any connection with the Cumans who arrived in the 11th century. The term 'Carpathian' surely is directly linked to the name of the Carpi tribe. James 007 04:51, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The old Czech word 'chrb' (hill, small hill, not 'mountain range') was also found as 'chrib', and there is in fact a place name formed from this word, but the name is Chribska, which is a far-cry from Carpathian. The 'chrb' idea is so scientifically worthless and ethnocentric that it should not be mentioned in this or any other factual article. James 007 05:14, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

There is no such proto-Indo-European root/word as 'karpa' or 'krpa', and the closest thing I found is *Kar, meaning 'hard' (from which comes Greek 'karuon'=nut; and English 'hard'). Subsequently, the PIE root *sker/ker came to my attention, and this is the source of the Albanian word 'karpe'. James 007 05:37, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

BTW, what is there a PIE root for Latin "crepare" (>Rom. "crăpa") = to crack ? Bogdan | Talk 11:50, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

My reference says Latin crepare is from PIE *Ker (listed as *Ker number 2, there being other Ker roots of different meaning). The root is defined as "an echoing root, base of various derivatives indicating loud noises or birds". Latin corvus is also from this root. I'm going to apply the razor (not Occam's Razor, probably one of my razors) and fix up this article. Albanian 'karpe', is said to be from PIE *sker, also given as *ker. I don't know about the Armenian word 'kar' or the Czech word 'chrb', they may be from other roots.James 007 01:58, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

A possibility I thought of (just to add to the list, not the article): there is an Indo-European root *kwerp, which meant 'twisted, turned', from which comes such words as ancient Greek karpos (wrist). Maybe the Carpathians were the 'the twisted, or turning mountains', because as you can see from the map, the mountain chain makes a turn in Romania. Also, take a look at a map showing the bent shape of the island of Karpathos: the shape is reminiscent of the curve of the Carpathians. Who knows. Maybe the meaning behind 'Karpates' was 'bent, twisted' mountains, and the Carpi tribes were named after the mountains. Or maybe 'karpates' is derived from the PIE *sker/ker, as indicated in many references, and the name of the island may or may not be from *sker. James 007 22:04, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Chrawat and Karpa, hmm...

As Chrawat, it was first applied to the inhabitants of the region, whence it passed in the form Krapat or Karpa as the name of the mountain range.– i'd say this is garbage, should be in quarantine– Criztu 12:26, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

It appears to be from the 1911 Britannica and it this word does not seem to be mentioned anywhere else on the internet. Bogdan | Talk 12:59, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Chrawat people? They surely mean the Chrowats (many spellings occuring: hrvat, harvat), the ancestors of the Croats . I'm not a specialist, but it looks to me like the larger stone tablet says 'choroathos'. The popular idea (and probably correct) about the Chrowats is that they were originally Iranian, and became Slavicized, like the Bulgars. According to a map, in 1000 ad there was a Chrowat kingdom in the area of what is now roughly southern Poland. I seriously doubt they would have given their name, or would have named, the Carpathian mountains, for a number of reasons: namely, because the Chrowats first arrived in the Carpathian area in the 7th century ad, and the term 'Carpathian' occurs earlier than 165 ad. Also, I know of no movement from 'chrowat'>'carpath', and I know of no instance where the 'w/v' in 'chrowat' became a 'p', though the 'w/v' looks to have become a 'b' in some instances. There are many family names, such as 'krobath' and 'charvat' that are said to derive from 'chrowat'. 'Charvat' might yield 'charbat', but the family name 'charvat' (taken from contemporary phonebooks) is hardly evidence for the idea that 'Carpathian' derives from 'chrowat'. James 007 22:43, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Both the 'chrb' idea and the 'chrowat' idea date back to the anonymous contributor 12.255.158.77 who first started the article at 3:01 Mar 24 2002. The two different ideas are mutually exclusive: reading the original article, you can tell from the way the two ideas are presented that Anonymous did not realize that the two ideas are not compatible. Not only are they not compatible, one is impossible (chrb), and the other idea is also impossible, as the Chrowats first arrived in the Carpathian area in the 7th century ad. The internet being the way it is, this garbage posted by this Anonymous has been regurgitated and recycled across the internet, and you'll find a number of websites quoting the old Misplaced Pages article (from march 2002, until it was finally recently erased) as if it was accurate information. James 007 23:40, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The earliest mention that I've seen of the Chrowats in the Carpathian area is the mention of them in the 'Bavarian Geographon', allegedly written circa ad 666-890 (very vague), so the 7th century would be the earliest mention of the Croats in the area. The first documented use of 'Carpathian' is before 165 ad, and that predates the Iranian (?) Chrowat arrival in the 7th century ad, so obviously the quote is wrong. Even if, without a shred of evidence, you push back the date of their arrival in Europe by a vast number of centuries, there is still no evidence that 'Carpathian' would have anything to do with 'chrowat'. The similarity is not even that close, and it is a mere accident of history. James 007 23:27, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The etymology of 'chrowat/hrvat' is, according to this site, from Old Iranian 'hara', meaning 'defenders': . I don't vouch for the credibility of either website. They seem to have been written by Croatian 'nationalists', so it presents their views. Some historians maybe don't support the Iranian origin of 'croat', I'm not sure. James 007 02:52, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

For those who understand German, the scientific derivation of the name of the Carpathians is in the German wikipedia article...Juro 02:54, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

From what I can read, the German article supports the connection with the Albanian word, karpe, an idea already mentioned in this article, and I think it says that the connection to Slavic 'chrb' is false. If so, sounds okay by me, and so the 'chrb' and the 'chrowat' speculations are erased according to policy, because they are totally false. James 007 03:05, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I've verified the root that the Karpaten article mentions: *sker, also given as *ker, 'to cut, that which is cut, rough, broken off'. So words for 'rock' and 'rugged', 'rough', come from this root (note: I'm not saying those English words come from this root; I mean the ideas; some actual English words from this root are 'scarp', 'sharp', and 'scrap'). The Albanian word 'karpe' (though my book doesn't mention this) is, according to that article, from this root, so our English article should also mention the root. This is not the *ker (number 2; pertaining to loud sounds) that the Latin word crepare comes from. In most references, *sker is the prime entry, so you won't find *ker unless you look under *sker (in others words, you won't find it under 'k'). James 007 03:20, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The English word 'scarp' (from *sker) means, as a noun, 'a steep slope, cliff'; as a verb, 'to cut or make into a steep slope'. The English word is from Italian scarpa. The Italian word is of unknown origin (maybe from some Germanic tribes, because English 'sharp' was once 'scearp', also from *sker). I brought up this word 'scarp' because the meaning of 'steep cliff' is close to 'mountain'. James 007 03:50, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

In different languages

The name 'Carpathian' should be given in more languages (Romanian, Polish, Slovak, etc.). James 007 04:38, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I added in some language links. Do we want to include (German: Karpaten) and the Hungarian equivalent because of the past and present minorities in the mountains? Olessi 23:10, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
It's true that the Carpathians are "de Karpaten" in Dutch, but should that be mentioned? I mean... Dutch is no Central European language at all --Massy 11:15, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Divisions of the Carpathians

Since you seem to be interested in the division of the Carpathians, maybe the following links could help you: the modern geomorphological division of Slovakia at sk:Geomorfologické členenie Slovenska (and the old orographical one at sk:Orografické členenie Slovenska). Juro 2 July 2005 20:32 (UTC)

Hi Juro, thanks for the link to the subdivision of the Slovak Carpathians. I also found a subdivision of all Carpathians in Polish wikipedia, pl:Regionalizacja fizycznogeograficzna Karpat. I notice some differences, for instance the Polish system divides the Western Carpathians into three parallel chains (the Slovak Ore Mountains and everything south of that are called "Inner Western Carpathians"), compared to two in the Slovak system. Maybe it doesn't matter, to me the Polish system doesn't sound bad, it claims a scientific basis. Also, in the Slovak system the Low Beskids are part of the Eastern Carpathians, in the Polish system they're in the Outer West. And I'm not sure about where the Poloniny is, is Hora Hoverla part of that? According to the Polish system it is (at least of the Poloniny Beskids). I'm going to make a subdivision for the Carpathian Mountains article, I think I'll simplify the Polish system for that. Markussep 3 July 2005 18:16 (UTC)

There are several ways how to divide mountain ranges. I am not an expert, but since I have written e.g. the German Carpathians article I have become an expert on this. The only "scientific" division of mountains is - as the name suggests - the geomorphological one, therefore it is used in e.g. in the Slovak article (it is based the newest version of the 90s) and thought at universities as the only modern system. The same system is used in Czechia, Austria, and Germany (at least). Then there is the orographical, physiogeographical etc. division, which is - again as the name suggests - is more "practical" (descriptive) and "geographical". Now, I did not check it, but as far as I remember, what you say about the differences seems to be exactly the old (orographical) system, which was abandonned in Czechoslovakia in the 1970s, because - as I have found in an encyclopaedia - it was not "scientific" enough. (This does not mean that one cannot divide the Carpathians in more than two horizontal units, but if one goes into details, the system cannot be used systematically.) Also, the Slovaks know their own mountains (Western Carpathians) better than anyone else, I assume... If you insist, I think I can find the modern system for the whole Carpathians in a certain book (which I do not have here now). Juro 3 July 2005 22:09 (UTC)

P.S: (1)I have checked the Polish page quickly and it uses definitively the old system (even the names of Slovak and Czech mountains are not correct anymore), so I would not use the system, for territories outside Poland at least. (2) As for Poloniny, this is the Slovak equivalent of German de:Waldkarpaten. At the time Carpathian Ruthenia was part of Czechoslovakia the whole Eastern Carpathians were alternatively called Poloniny. The problem is that the eastern border of "anything" in Ukraine is disputed, so that I cannot tell you whether Hoverla is still "there". Another problem is that the Ukrainians call another (smaller) part of the Carpathians "Poloniny". Juro 3 July 2005 22:31 (UTC)

I will not use the Polish system then. If you can find the modern system, please do! About Poloniny, I suppose Wood Carpathians would be a better name then, but I'm not sure whether that's used in English. Ukrainian wikipedia (uk:Карпати) simply calls it Ukrainian Carpathians, with some divisions like Chornohora. Markussep 4 July 2005 07:48 (UTC). BTW this is what Enc. Britannica makes of it: map and geology of Carpathians. Is the whole Börzsöny-Cserhát-Mátra-Bükk chain really of volcanic origin?

(1)Yes, and not only that one, further mountains in SK and R are volcanic as well. (2) I am working on the list now.... Juro 5 July 2005 15:16 (UTC)


The subdivisions of the Carpathians in this article doesn't correspond with the romanian subdivisions The romanians subdivide the Romanian Carpathians (see more here: 1; 2; 3; 4)in:

  • 1) Eastern Carpathians (Carpaţii Orientali): from the ukrainian border to the Prahova Valley
  • 2) Southern Carpathians (Carpaţii Meridionali): from the Prahova valley to the Timiş-Cerna rift and the Haţeg Valley (lowland)
  • 3) Western Carpathians (Carpaţii Occidentali): it includes the Apuseni-Mountains, the Poiana-Ruscă-Mountains, the Banat-Mountains. The Serbian Carpathians are a continuation of the Banat-Mountains and they belong therefore to the Western Carpathians.
  • The Slovak and Polish Carpathians they call "Carpaţii Nord-vestici" (Northwestern Carpathians).

As you can see, they are 2 "Western Carpathians" and I recommend to subdivide the Carpathians on this way:

  • 1)Northwestern Carpathians
  • 2)Eastern Carpathians
  • 3)Southern Carpathians
  • 4)Southwestern Carpathians

--Olahus 21:13, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Useless Fact

The following fact is misplaced in this page and has no value to a discussion on "Carpathian Mountains" other than the author's own intellectual gratification:

In official Hungarian documents of the 13th and 14th centuries, the Carpathians are named Thorchal or Tarczal, or the latinate Montes Nivium.

I have removed it.

I see that someone added it back with no comment as to its (ir)relevancy. Comments anyone?
Seems just as relevant as the other names... Less likely to be used, perhaps, but not irrelevant.--Marhawkman (talk) 05:34, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Addition to Fictional Places

The SciFi/Horror movie 'the Cave' takes place in the Carpathian mountains, so that would be a good candidate to add to the fictional depictions sections. Just saying. -IkD —Preceding unsigned comment added by IkonicDeath (talk • contribs) 06:11, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

The Ukrainian movie made in 1964, entitled "Shadows of Forgotten Ancesters", is an eerie but ultimately enjoyable depiction of the logging and goat-herding people living in the Carpathian Mountains in western Ukraine in the middle of the 19th century. This is not a documentary but a fictional story based on oral legends.

Sarmatian Mountains: East or West?

The article now mentions the East Carpathian Mountains to have been called Sarmatian Mountains in later roman times. I 'm not sure about that, but I am definitly sure Ptolemy calls the West Carpathian Mountains Sarmation Mountains, see . Notum-sit (talk) 21:39, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Romanian

what's the tag for Transwiki? The Romanian wikipedia on this subject has a much better explanation of the subdivisions they use. It even has pictures for the subdivisions. :) what's the tag you need to use for this?--Marhawkman (talk) 06:04, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Copy editing

I'm going to tag this article for copy editing, since the bulk of it seems to be written by someone whose first language is not English. Not to detract from their contributions, but this is an English-language article, after all :) Unvanquished (talk) 18:56, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

I've done a major copyedit this evening. Really, the writing was already very good apart from a shortage of definite and indefinite articles (Slavic languages don't use them). However, there are a few things to mention:
  • I have moved some text in the Carpathian Mountains#Name section to the top, hoping that the earlier parts of this section are the best cited and any original research is lower down. I don't have access to the Adrian Room reference, else I might have chopped more. It would be great if an expert could weed out any folk etymology and speculation from this section.
  • Apologies to the person who did so much work getting population numbers for the Carpathian Mountains#Cities and towns section, but these numbers really had to go. Such numbers are never correct for two days running. Please see Misplaced Pages:MOS#Large_numbers.
  • The dead links were archived, so easily restored. I removed a couple of promotional links.
--Stfg (talk) 00:47, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
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