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    Jacurek

    Jacurek, Volunteer Marek, Dr. Dan and Lokyz are sanctioned as described in this thread; M.K is warned.  Sandstein  06:47, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

    Request concerning Jacurek

    User requesting enforcement
    Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:22, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Jacurek (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
    Sanction or remedy that this user violated
    Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Digwuren#Discretionary sanctions
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

    Jacurek, who has a long history of disruption and sanctions relating to eastern European topics, after coming back from a ban, has focussed his editing almost entirely on lame edit-warring over the inclusion of Polish, German or Lithuanian geographical terms in the leads of various articles.

    He also made the obvious WP:POINT move of removing the German name from Gdansk , explicitly in retaliation, and in blatant breach of the long-standing Gdansk rules.

    More edit-warring just under 3RR elsewhere: on Ukrainische_Hilfspolizei,

    One thing that's troubling is that the same old cliques and tag-teams known from the WP:EEML days are still showing up together on the same articles regularly in many of these cases.

    Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

    not applicable, has long history of Digwuren and EEML sanctions

    Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)
    renewed revert restriction at the least, preferably full topic ban from geographical naming issues, or full ban
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint
    I would take action myself here, as I have done before, if not for the fact that in one of the contentious naming issues cited above I gave my own editorial opinion earlier. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:22, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
    Re. to Piotrus' comment below: asking "who gave me the diffs" is a pretty serious assumption of bad faith all by itself. I'm perfectly able to collect diffs myself. I saw something light up on Jacurek's talkpage (which happened to be still on my watchlist from time immemorial), and out of curiousity took a look at what he had been up to. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:29, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

    Discussion concerning Jacurek

    Statement by Jacurek

    Recently, I focused my work on adding missing alternative names to the articles related to shared Lithuanian, Polish, Jewish, Belorussian or Ukrainian history and heritage following general naming policy . I have beed editing without violating any standards of behaviour and in line with normal editorial process. All my edits/reverts presented here are spread out over time, discussed by me , , , , or in line with discussion I followed and ALL are supported by the WP:NCGN. I stated in my edit summaries why I'm doing such edits and the polices I followed

    I was adding alternative names in various languages:

    • German names to Polish places:

    • Polish names to Belorussian places:

    • Yiddish, Belorussian, Ethnic Kashubian and Ukrainian names to Polish places:

    • Polish, Yiddish and Russian names to Ukrainian places:

    • Lithuanian names to Polish places:

    • Latvian, Belorussian, Russian to Lithianian palces:

    • ...and finally Polish names to the Lithuanian places:

    Here however, all my edits were immediately reverted by Dr. Dan (talk · contribs), M.K (talk · contribs) and Lokyz (talk · contribs)) I was called Dyslexic , amusing, a troll , a nationalistic troll chauvinist playing games etc. Disrespect, taunting and incivility was also directed at other people by mentioned editors: ex-admin RPG player is trying to make a project of Misplaced Pages a playground of his own Please note that one was warned by administrator because of these incivil remarks and another complained about .

    Here are just few diff's as an examples of the name removals by mentioned editors:


    • As far as removing a German name from the lead of the Gdansk article I reverted my own edits ] ] from December in line with this discussion and linked this talk page in my edit summary . This edit was NOT to make any point.
    • As far as IP sock: - this is not me and I wonder why FP can so easily and without any proof accuse people of using socks?


    Why was I singled out and accused of violating the polices by Future Perfect at Sunrise? EXACTLY the same report could have been filed by him on user Dr. Dan (talk · contribs), M.K (talk · contribs) or Lokyz (talk · contribs):


    The bottom line is that I was following normal editorial process, watching revert count limitations and all my edits were supported by the WP:NCGN. We really have an opportunity now to resolve ongoing problem of removal by some Lithuanian editors all Polish names from the articles related to the Polish-Lithuanian heritage and reach the agreement thanks to discussion here . I echo this comment %100. Please Sandstain, look outside the AE box this only time and the problem will gone.--Jacurek (talk) 02:32, 13 March 2011 (UTC)


    MISSED FROM MY GDANSK SECTION-PLEASE ADD - please do not classify me together with editors who remove one language names for nationalistic reasons. I was editing names in various languages (German, Polish, Russian, Lithuanian, Yiddish, Latvian, Latvian and Byelorussian) - Refer to my edit history. - (adding German) then correcting to follow standards --Jacurek (talk) 21:39, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

    Thanks for correcting--Jacurek (talk) 21:51, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

    Third opinion of an uninvolved administrator

    As per permission of the reviewing administrators third opinion has been requested Thank you all for patience.--Jacurek (talk) 02:32, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

    Comments by others about the request concerning Jacurek

    Comment by Volunteer Marek

    There's an ongoing discussion about the proper way of handling alternative names here . The underlying problem is complete disregard for naming policy on the part of Dr. Dan/Lokyz/MK. This is compounded by the fact that there is some confusion over what the actual policy is. Hence the discussion.

    Jacurek's edits at Gdansk where a response - and in line with - to the discussion as it was occurring at Naming conventions (the diff above), with comments provided by a third opinion (which I requested) at Vilnius university , and are in agreement with views expressed by such individuals like User:Novickas and User:Deacon of Pndapetzim who are about as far as humanely and even super-humanely possible from being "same old cliques and tag-teams known from the WP:EEML days." As such Jacurek's edits are part of the standard BRD cycle, are not edit warring, and none of them are in any way a breach of policy.

    Throughout Jacurek has remained calm and civil despite several provocations. In particular, Dr. Dan has made several personal attacks against various users:

    • Dr. Dan calling editors "nationalist trolls"
    • Dr. Dan calling editors "nationalist trolls"
    • Dr. Dan taunting Piotrus, shortly after coming off an interaction ban with him: ("It's nice to have you back editing after your sabbatical. It must have been an unpleasant experience. ")
    • Dr. Dan implies that editors are "nationalistic, chauvinistic"

    At the naming conventions discussion Deacon of Pndapetzim, who I think can fairly be characterized as an "opponent" of people who used to be on the Eastern European mailing list has stated: Without wishing to offend anyone, my experience of other language names in leads is that they function in practice as nationalist scent markings. Jacurek's edits were completely in line with this sentiment.

    Additionally Deacon stated, in reference to inclusion of German names in ledes of articles on Polish places: Can't say I approve of most of those edits. - again, in line with Jacurek's above edits.

    Likewise, Deacon said: in those cases this should be in the main text with citations not just in brackets at the lead, where it looks like simple nationalist scent-marking and is thus provocative.

    At Vilnius University, user Novickas, who can also be seen as usually on the other side of the issue stated: Yes, I think all articles ought to follow WP:Lead, which emphasizes concision and readability, but leaves room for an entity's multiple names by way of a dedicated name section. - again in reference to the inclusion of German names in Polish places.

    As such Jacurek's edits are not in any way a way of making a POINT but rather a response to what people are saying the policy is.

    Did I mention that none of Jacurek's edits in any way violated any kind of policy what so ever?

    Finally, let me point out that a discussion on the subject is actually ongoing and amazingly, for like the first time in a long while it is actually civil, calm and is even starting to look productive, people who previously have very strongly disagreed with each other in the past might actually be able to work something out and about the last freakin thing that is going to help here is a completely pointless and baseless AE report such as this one which good money says will do nothing but attract the usual infighting, bickering and sniping.

    What is the point of this AE report? How is it not counter productive? Why do you find it necessary to sabotage a potentially productive discussion?Volunteer Marek (talk) 10:02, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

    Response to Sandstein's suggestion and Ed Johnston

    You can't judge/sanction editors based on whether they're "engaged in a campaign of mass removal or mass addition" if the editor involved is following established naming guidelines. For comparison look at User:HerkusMonte's edits (and I wish to be 100% clear that this is no way a criticism of Herkus), particularly all the edits with the edit summary "lang-de" which in the recent past have comprised the majority of Herkus' editing on Misplaced Pages. Jacurek's edits are no different than Herkus' and neither editor did anything wrong. The only difference is that when Herkus "engages in his campaign of mass addition" he IS NOT immediately reverted by tag teams of Polish editors who also refuse to discuss the issue meaningfully and some of whom engage in personal attacks - but this does happen with addition of Polish names to places with shared Polish and Lithuanian history. Unlike Jacurek, Herkus is left alone, because he is more or less following current naming policy (again, if that is the appropriate policy is another question) - just like Jacurek was.Volunteer Marek (talk) 16:05, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

    We're not examining mass additions or removals per se, but edit wars. Whether the reverts conform with any naming policy or guideline is irrelevant for the purpose of this request, because the edit-warring policy does not exempt such reverts.  Sandstein  18:53, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
    I understand perfectly well that AE is not about judging compliance of edits with the naming policy. However it is also the case that in one instance you get edit wars because a group of editors does not wish to comply with naming policy, whereas in the other case - which involves exactly the same kinds of edits - you don't get edit wars because, well, because the editors on both sides are more reasonable and have no problem with following policy. As such, punishing Jacurek in this case, even if he reverted others is tantamount to rewarding the battleground behavior of those who purposefully ignore this naming policy. If the purpose of this board is to prevent conflicts from continuing in this area then encouraging this kind of behavior is obviously not the way to further that goal. A bit of common sense is needed here.Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:09, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

    Response to this "list" business Uhh, not sure what this list is supposed to be or what it is supposed to accomplish (in fact, it's a bad idea to begin with) but for what it's worth:

    1. I've never edited St. Anne's Church, Vilnius or Cathedral Square, Vilnius.
    2. I made one edit to Suvalkija back in August (so 5+ months ago) after Lokyz removed the name with an edit summary that made no sense, but I didn't make any further edits even after he blind reverted me literally within minutes (, , ) (btw, please note that "Suvalkų kraštas", the Lithuanian term, has been in the article on the Suwałki Region for something like 3 years straight and no Polish editor ever tried to remove it - which is quite telling when you compare it to the situation at Suvalkija).
    3. On Vilnius University, after observing the blind reverts by Lokyz , , I started a discussion on talk on March 5th without making any edits myself. Please note that Lokyz's edit summary justification for his revert was: PLease use talk page before starting edit war. (on an edit war he started) - however, once I started a discussion on talk he didn't even bother to reply or actually discuss. Hence, four days later on March 9th, I made the change to the article - this was my single edit to the article. Of course it got reverted within minutes (again - well, actually this time it took him two hours) . At that point I requested a third opinion , still not making any edits to the article myself. Novickas at this time edited the article by expanding the names section which is fine with me. Note the pattern here: Lokyz, Dr. Dan and MK blind revert, while at the same time admonishing users to "discuss on talk" or claiming that there is "no consensus" yet, they then don't even bother discussing things when a discussion is initiated. If they do discuss the discussion is very quickly derailed by irrelevant strawmen (like discussion of whether the article on cat should have the Polish "kot" in it , even though no one has ever proposed that - you can also ask Kotniski about how productive these "discussions" tend to be and why that is).
    4. On Bernardine Cemetery I was also the one who initiated the discussion on talk in the first place, way back in October (though note previous personal attacks by Lokyz, who calls Jacurek dyslexic and says "Dyslexic people are amusing" which is extremely offensive in its own right, no matter who it is directed at). Jacurek likewise tried to engage in good faithed discussion (note also Dr. Dan's mocking of Kotniski in response to with the "Er,..." parody of Kotniski's statement - seriously how is meaningful discussion possible in such circumstances?). Since the talk page consensus appeared to be for the inclusion of the name, and since Lokyz and Dr.Dan ceased participating in the discussion, I made one edit to the article restoring the name (my edits in November where just a standard expansion of the article) on March 7th, or three months after I initiated discussion). The edit was again reverted within minutes by Lokyz with an edit summary in which he purposefully used my previous name (in what I took to be a form of harassment), despite the fact that I had previously asked him specifically not to do that and to which he agreed. I made no further edits to the article after that but instead brought the matter to talk again. Here's the sad/ironic thing - recently through a joint Polish-Lithuanian effort the cemetery was restored as a symbol of Polish-Lithuanian friendship and joint history, and the Lithuanian government funded a sign with the Polish name at the entrance to the cemetery - since generally public signs written in Polish are banned in Lithuania this was a "big deal". But apparantly, some editors are more nationalistic than the Lithuanian government.
    5. On Gdansk I made a single edit because the article already has a section which discusses the name in much detail and I was just being told by Novickas and Deacon that policy says that in such cases there's no need for a separate inclusion of the name in the lede. I did not edit war here and don't even try to freakin' pretend that I did. This is total nonsense.

    Bottom line: I made one edit at Suvalkija long time ago which was reverted within minutes and I made no subsequent edits. I made one edit at Vilnius University and when it was reverted, within less than three hours, asked for third opinion. At Bernardine Cemetery I initiated discussion on talk and only after it seemed like an agreement was reached for inclusion, and having given it enough time (3 months) did I make one edit and add the name. This too was reverted within minutes and I didn't edit the article any further. I think the picture that emerges here is crystal clear.

    I also got to ask why you are limiting this to just these articles? MK regularly edit wars with Belorussians editors over similar matters . Herkus adds German names to Polish places all the time - but never gets reverted because Polish editors, unlike Lithuanian ones, actually follow policy. Why isn't that relevant?Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:39, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

    The list is currently limited to the articles named in the request and the editors who have been making language-related reverts on them. If there are similar problems with other articles or other editors, I recommend that you make a separate AE request about them. If the same editors have also made similar reverts in other articles, or other editors have made similar reverts in the same articles, you can mention them here so that we may consider including them in the list. I should note that I think that your comment above, "Polish editors, unlike Lithuanian ones, actually follow policy", is extremely problematic, as it indicates nationalist prejudice on your part, and I will take it into account in the decision.  Sandstein  21:17, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
    Oh for Christ sake! My comment that "Polish editors, unlike Lithuanian ones, actually follow policy" obviously is in reference to the editors involved in this request - Lokyz, MK and Dr.Dan and then Jacurek and myself. There's no prejudice in it and it is factually verifiable as noted above. The whole request is about the fact that Lokyz, MK and DD have been purposefully ignoring naming policy. Why am I getting the sense that you are purposefully looking for any kind of excuse to railroad me into a sanction? First you put me in that little list of yours for no reason, and now you come up with this nonsense.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:30, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
    I can see that the choice of words wasn't the best one and what I should have said was that "because I follow naming policy, unlike Dr. Dan, MK and Lokyz". Apologies. However, my temper at the moment is running extremely high because of the ridiculous insinuations that you (Sandstein) are making against me and the waste of my time that you are forcing me into - I just wasted an hour and a half of my life writing a response, instead of doing real life work, spending time with my kid, or even working on some Misplaced Pages article. As a result I wrote quickly and unclearly. I'm striking it above.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:40, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
    Thank you for this clarification, which I accept on a good faith basis. You must be extremely careful what you write, because statements that vilipend whole groups of editors on the basis of their nationality are completely unacceptable, especially in a WP:DIGWUREN context, and if you repeat such statements you may be sanctioned for them without further warning. I normally assume that people mean exactly what they write.  Sandstein  23:16, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
    And if you want to see a previous discussion which is relevant here which says the same thing look here and here . Why not go after Kotniski here too? Why not include him in the "list"?Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:19, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
    These diffs do not show that Kotniski added or removed languages to the articles at issue here. They cannot therefore be included in the list.  Sandstein  22:21, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
    The diffs are not presented to show that Kotniski added or removed languages, but rather as a response to your threat to "take it (my hastily written statement) into account in the decision." Please address the relevant point, not a completely different point.Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:28, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

    This is completly wrong: Edit-warring to add or remove a language from any one article does not necessarily reflect bias, as there may be policy-based grounds for such reverts (even if these do not excuse edit-warring). But a pattern of consistently adding or removing the same language from multiple articles cannot be reasonably explained on guideline grounds, since the guideline makes reference to the use of names in English-language literature, which differs from topic to topic. Such a pattern of editing, therefore, can only be explained by a desire to put nationalist bias ahead of Misplaced Pages policy and guidelines. This makes such a pattern incompatible with WP:NPOV and, consequently, grounds for sanctions.

    Specifically: But a pattern of consistently adding or removing the same language from multiple articles cannot be reasonably explained on guideline grounds - no, but it can be explained by the fact that editors will add the language which they are familiar with to a topic which they are familiar with. I'd happily add relevant names to articles on Fiji but I have no idea what these may be. Such a pattern of editing, therefore, can only be explained by a desire to put nationalist bias - no, it can be explained by the fact that editors edit topics they are familiar with. This makes such a pattern incompatible with WP:NPOV - since when is AE in the business of adjudicating content disputes, which is what WP:NPOV involves? To quote Sandstein himself: compliance with this guideline is a content issue, because it requires editorial judgment, and cannot therefore be reviewed in an arbitration context.

    The above statement appears to be nothing but an attempt to find a flimsy excuse to sanction people who did nothing wrong. It is railroading plain and simple.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:46, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

    Add in light of Sandstein's insinuation of "nationalist editing I should also add that in the past I have

    1. defended User:HerkusMonte's addition of German names to Polish articles (within reason) (placeholder for diff here - gimme time to find it, wasting more of my time), and have done so recently at the naming conventions discussion and elsewhere. I've generally have had an amicable relationship with Herkus (at least I think so) so why not ask HIM if he regards my revert of him as good faithed or as sanction-worthy? He's certainly not the person who brought this whole mess to AE. If he's not complaining why are YOU including it here?
    2. Added Yiddish names to Poland and Lithuania related articles
    3. Added Lithuanian names to Polish related articles.

    Thus, Sandstein's charge/insinuation of "nationalist bias" is highly inflammatory, insulting, and essentially a personal attack. None of the provided diffs substantiate it and it is exactly the kind of statement that he himself regularly tries to sanction other editors for. Since the same rules apply to Sandstein in this respect as they do to other editors, I ask him to strike that portion of his statement.Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:05, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

    Declined. Whether your edits (like those of the other editors) reflect nationalist bias is a matter under investigation in this request. My concern in this respect, above, was accompanied by a relevant diff. If you disagree with the eventual outcome of the request you can appeal against it. Assumptions of bad faith are unlikely to help your case.  Sandstein  22:18, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
    There has been no evidence provided of "nationalist bias" so far and you should not make such charges against editors without substantiating them FIRST. Not a "they might or might not be substantiated later". You do sanction others exactly for such behavior hence you should not engage in it yourself. I am not assuming bad faith. I do question your judgment however.Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:28, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

    Response to Deacon

    Your comments at the naming conventions discussion did indeed imply that. But the point here is that after they were made Jacurek STOPPED adding names to the articles since it became clear that the policy itself was under dispute. His subsequent edits which are being dredged up here as "evidence" are completely in line with your view of the matter.Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:47, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

    Response to Ed Johnston's comments (copied from his talk) This ban would be applied to all editors listed below who have previously been sanctioned under any Eastern European cases - Ed, can you please explain to me why you are including me in this group? It appears you are doing so only because Sandstein included me there. But if you actually look at the list and read the comments, then you will notice that out of the six articles listed by Sandstein, two I've never edited in my life, and on the other four I made a single edit, sometimes long time ago (I have over 20k edits, I've even forgotten some of these) and when I was reverted, I ceased making any further edits.

    There's no way that making a single edit on an article can be in any way construed as "edit warring" or anything else. I have also supported the inclusion of German names in Polish articles (within reason), and have added Lithuanian names to Polish articles as well as Yiddish and Hebrew names to Polish articles (like I said, I got over 20k edits and I'm not going to waste my time going back and looking for the odd diff or so, but they're there). I've consistently applied WP:NCGN policy, regardless of the places involved. Of course I've mostly edited Poland related articles - I don't speak Portuguese, Yoruba or Nahuatl! At no point have I edit warred and in fact I asked for third opinion and discussed things on talk, and am currently in process of working on naming conventions guideline in order to sort out this mess. Can you explain at all what would justify your proposal to sanction me?Volunteer Marek (talk) 16:19, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

    Comment on Sandstein and Deacon's discussion of BRD

    • Deacon: Why should anyone be punished for following it (BRD)? - yes, exactly.
    • Sandstein: WP:BRD involves stopping after a single revert. - yes, exactly. And that is precisely what I did. In each of these cases I ceased editing the relevant article as soon as I got reverted.
    • Deacon: BRD means that if you are bold, and you get reverted ... you discuss it. - did that too. Asked for third opinion, discussed things on talk, without making any further edits to the articles themselves
    • Deacon: It doesn't mean that if you revert a controversial edit you have to simply accept the edit if the other editor or a friend just doesn't feel like respecting BRD himself. - this is true and in fact allows for more reverts then I actually made, provided discussion is under way. I, in fact, did "accept the edit" and made no further changes to the articles.

    The parts I disagree with:

    • Deacon: The editors placing the alternate names ..., know their edits will be opposed but apparently think it worth the fight. - No. The editors placing in the names are simply following policy at WP:NCGN. Now, you might disagree with the policy as she is written, but that's why we're having a discussion about it at present. It is the editors who are removing the names that are acting against policy and being disruptive.

    Likewise

    • Deacon: we should be predisposed to be sceptical towards the addition of these names, which in practice is usually nothing more than nationalist scent-marking; inserting them in knowledge of their controversy is the behaviour that is disruptive and violates our conduct policies; removing such inclusions follows our conduct policies. - Maybe we should be skeptical, but then that should be in the policy itself. As I said at the discussion repeatedly my main concern is that the situation is not treated consistently. There's no edit wars on insertion of German names into Polish places (sometimes extremely small villages) and that's supposed to be fine. Same for insertion of Lithuanian names into Polish places. But if a Polish name (or for that matter Belorussian) gets put into a Lithuanian place the three editors mentioned above (Dr. Dan, Lokyz and MK) converge on the article and edit war to keep it removed and all hell breaks loose. If we're going to be skeptical in one case, we need to be skeptical in other cases as well. Otherwise you're singling out a particular group/country for special treatment (whether good or bad) and that can't be justified, either on policy or ethical grounds.
    Additionally, saying that inserting names is nothing "more than nationalist scent-marking" is an unverifiable assertion (since you can't observe people's motives) and is potentially offensive to boot. Are these edits (population 404), , (population 282), (population 27!!!), , , (population 273), (population 13!!!!!!!), , , (population 16!!!), , , (huge metropolis, population 280), , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , "nationalist scent-marking"? And that's just since March 1st!
    Jacurek didn't do anything more than what Herkus is doing. He just had the misfortune of running into Dr. Dan, Lokyz and MK. He shouldn't be punished for that. And let's have Sandstein apply his own words, quote: " But a pattern of consistently adding or removing the same language from multiple articles cannot be reasonably explained on guideline grounds". Whose more consistently adding the same language to multiple articles? Herkus? Or Jacurek, who also added German names to Polish places, Lithuanian names to Polish places, etc.. Again, I don't think Herkus is doing anything wrong here, but neither is Jacurek.Volunteer Marek (talk) 17:55, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
    These diffs are by another user, HerkusMonte (talk · contribs). That user is not involved in the edit wars that are at issue in this request, and so their edits are not reviewed here. They can be made the subject of a separate AE request if they are believed to be sanctionable.

    For the benefit of anybody reading this, I believe the discussion alluded to above is this one (permalink). It explains why, in my view, an editor is also engaged in (and therefore sanctionable for) edit-warring if they contribute a single revert to an edit war that is otherwise carried on mainly by others.  Sandstein  18:07, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

    Yes, they are by another user who is not subject of this report but they are illustrative of the situation. For one thing they clearly show that your own condition that a pattern of consistently adding or removing the same language from multiple articles cannot be reasonably explained on guideline grounds - does not apply to Jacurek, neither in relative or absolute terms.
    And the reason why the above edits are not subject to an AE report are that
    1. the point is that Herkus wasn't doing anything wrong and neither was Jacurek. Since I don't think Herkus is doing anything wrong, why in the world would I want to file an AE report on him? I'm basically saying "editor A is not at fault - for comparison see editor B who does the same thing and is also not at fault". And Sandstein replies with "you can take editor B to court if you want to" - what's the logic here?
    2. the reason Herkus didn't get into any edit wars is simply because he didn't have to contend with a "Dr. Dan" or a "Lokyz" or a "MK" (he does revert when reverted). But that's neither Herkus' nor Jacurek's fault. If somebody DID actually go and remove those massive name additions, what do you think would have happened? People shouldn't be punished for being reasonable.
    3. Future Perfect at Sunrise for some reason decided to single out and pick on Jacurek.Volunteer Marek (talk) 18:16, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

    Comment by Piotrus

    I am rather disappointed by FPS here.

    First, I'd like to ask: who gave you those diffs and requested that you post to AE on their behalf? It's not like you have edited any of the articles in question, nor have you been a participant to any talk page discussions, as far as I am aware.

    Second, I really hoped that the established editors with no axes to grind, in particular, respected admins (and I do respect FPS), would not use the "specter of EEML" poisoning the well argument. Instead of concentrating on editors who are creating the battleground through baiting and incivility (see VM post above), let's just go for the good, old EEML members, because, well, they are EEML, hence evil, hence the source of all problems, right? Somebody is being incivil to them? They surely deserved it. There is an edit war? Surely, they are the only guilty party.

    Third, Jacurek has not violated any policy. Has 3RR been violated, even once? No. Has CIV been violated, even once? No. Regarding , this edit is in line with WP:NCGN, and the implication of this for Gdansk rule need to be discussed; I recently raised this on talk there. As things stand, however, NCGN explicitly suggests moving of alt. names from lead to a dedicated section and states they should not be restored, and Jacurek was acting within NCGN to the letter (now, I started a discussion on talk to discuss whether this letter is correct and benefits Misplaced Pages, but this is hardly an AE issue). Lastly, yes, there has been a slow edit war at some articles, but in most if not all cases, Jacurek is enforcing NCGN, where other editors, propagating battleground and disruption, are attempting to go against policies on those articles. NCGN supports foreign name in articles as long as they are significant (and NCGN has nice, simple check for significance - 10% of English google sources). On Cathedral Square, Vilnius (talk) I've shown NCGN applies, yet Jacurek's opponents have not bothered to discuss it - they just revert him. Ditto for Bernardine Cemetery. Nobody has done an analysis for St. Anne's Church, Vilnius, but I expect NCGN applies as well. On two other articles, in Vilnius University the nameing section was just expanded enough to warrant an end to inclusion of the name in lead. I'd have to look at Suvalkija more closely. Ukrainische Hilfspolizei seems totally unrelated to that and I'll have to review it more closely again.

    Bottom line, Jacurek seems not to have violated any policies, most of his reverts are policy-supported (whereas most of those by his opponents are not), so how about the admins here focus on incivil, baiting editors and give the rest of us some breathing ground?

    All that said, 1RR for everyone would be a good voluntary rule to declare. I hereby do so for my self, for the next month on all naming-affected articles, and I would strongly suggest everyone else follows suit. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 15:08, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

    Responce to FSP: Thank you for clarifying my question, and I apologize if the tone was too aggressive. I would still appreciate an explanation why you singled Jacurek for the report.
    Comments for Sandstein and EdJohnston: I appreciate that you are willing to look further than just one side of the conflict. I would appreciate if you could tell me why did you decide to include Volunteer Marek in your analysis, with his 4 reverts total, each on a separate article, compared to Jacurek (19 reverts), MK (12 reverts), Dr Dan (14 reverts) and Lokyz (16 reverts). The last time I check, adhering to 1RR and BRD was the right thing to do... Misplaced Pages:Edit warring explicitly notes the need for repetetive reverts, so I am having trouble seeing why a user adhering to 1RR (or, even more clearly, making a single revert to an article in the space of many weeks or months) can be included in a discussion of edit warring. I also note that two of his reverts you cite specifically mention no responses for days or longer to discussion on talk. I would also appreciate clarification whether an editor reverting following a policy like NCGN and another reverting against it are to be treated as "equal"? Lastly, I would like to ask if you will be looking at incivility (which I think is at least as problematic as reverts), or just reverts. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 04:03, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
    Policy interpretation question at WP:EW: I raised a question related to interpretation of EW/BRD here. I would suggest that admins hold of on applying sanctions to VM till consensus is reached on that particular interpretation (this does not concern sanctions against other editors, IMHO). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 18:22, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

    Comment by Kotniski

    Echoing most of what Piotrus says, I note that this issue will never be sorted out by applying unilateral sanctions against a randomly chosen editor or two on one side of the debate. It's been going on for years; somehow those who consistently remove non-Lithuanian names from Lithuania-related articles seem to be exempted from any kind of rebuke or sanction (which of course in no way justifies the pointy removal of non-Polish names from Poland-related articles) - but in any case, it's necessary to resolve the underlying issues, through some kind of mediation or preferably involvement from the community at large, to work out the best ways to present this kind of important information to readers without being dictated to by those on various sides who are clearly driven mainly by irrational nationalist sentiment. --Kotniski (talk) 16:17, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

    AE is not really equipped procedurally for broad reviews covering many editors and their whole editing history. That would need a request for an arbitration case. But I suspect that after WP:DIGWUREN and WP:EEML the Committee is so fed up with this whole ensemble of editors and their obscure historical grievances that it would just indef topic-ban them all and throw away the key. And I suspect that we are coming to a point at AE where we'll come to the same conclusion eventually, one editor at a time.  Sandstein  16:24, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
    My point is that we need to stop focusing on editors and their "editing history" (whether one, two or many) and address the substantial issues of disagreement. You're right that AE (and indeed ArbCom generally) is not equipped procedurally for anything except the same old types of editor-focused action which are already known not to work; which is why we need to start thinking outside the AE box here.--Kotniski (talk) 16:33, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
    Well, if people are trying to reach some new agreement at the geographical names guideline, that's great and I'm all for it. But Jacurek's editing was not directed towards creating such an agreement. He was just edit-warring. His talk page contributions are few, and all seem to be focussed merely on asserting his own position, which is rather overtly of the type "treat geographical names as symbolic badges of recognition of historical national claims of possesion". And it is precisely this mentality that is the problem here. Whatever eventual solution there may be for these questions, Jacurek's editing has been persistently part not of the solution but of the problem. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:40, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
    Absolutely not true. I was just discussing the issue trying to reach agreement here ] for example and on countess other talk pages. I was adding alternative names in various languages, your accusation of me trying to claim a "national possession" is ABSOLUTELY not true. FP - Can you please wait for my statement before posting more accusations? I should find some time this weekend to respond.--Jacurek (talk) 16:55, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
    FP, as I said earlier, I do respect you, and I think you are partially right here. Jacurek was doing quite a few reverts. However, as I, VM and he himself pointed out, 1) he was not alone and 2) most if not all of his edits were in line with the policies (unlike those of his opponents). I wish he had used the talk more and reverted less, but he is less guilty than many others, and unlike some, he has been civil, and he has been following the NCGN policy more often then not. I don't understand why you have singled him out in this report? Saying this, I'd also strongly urge Jacurek to follow my advice and declare that he will voluntarily restrict himself to 1RR on articles with disputed naming (and I urge others to follow mine and hopefully, his suit in this). I'd also suggest that the admins here try to be more creative than blocks and topic bans (lot of good have they done in the past, as we can see) and instead impose a bunch of 1RR restriction on a number of editors who focus on reverting (1RR restriction is the correct scalpel-level solution for revert warring, although I know that some people prefer to nuke anything nail shaped instead...I hope this mentality will not be seen in this discussion). For those who promise to voluntarily restrain themselves but are later shown they didn't keep the word, I'd of course suggest harsher penalties in the future (community patience is not unlimited). I will end by saying that if the outcome of this AE will be punishing only one of the edit warring editors, and at that one who was mostly in line with NCGN and who was, unlike some of the others, civil, it will send a pretty bad message out. It would also be nice if people would stop dredging the "EEML specter", poisoning the well with "if an involved editor was a party to the EEML case, 100% of the problem lies with him" argument (intentionally or not, this is the effect I am seeing). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 05:59, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
    I have no problem with voluntarily restricting myself to 1RR on articles with disputed naming, please consider this comment as my commitment. However my commitment alone will not eliminate the problem of removal by few Lithuanian editors all Polish names from the articles that share common Polish-Lithuanian heritage. There is hope that this amazingly constructive discussion that is going on here will result in new rules being drafted and the issue will be resolved. --Jacurek (talk) 10:00, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
    Actually most of bigger Lithuanian cities have Polish names in the name section be it Vilnius, Kaunas or Biržai, as does Vilnius University, and it is according to the WP:NCGN section that suggests the names not to be returend to lead after such section is created. It was an agreement that was reached, and that was and still is violated by an editor who has opinion of his own. So there is no conspiracy to remove one nation names from other nations cities articles, as one is trying to persuade others.--Lokyz (talk) 12:59, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
    Lokyz, you kept removing Polish names from the articles given by you as examples and all others summarizing your reverts with "what's the Polish etymology of the name?"which shows that the problem for you was not the place where alternative names should be included but existence of the Polish name itself. The name section has been created later because of the pressure applied by several editors. --Jacurek (talk) 10:00, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
    and it is according to the WP:NCGN section that suggests the names not to be returend to lead after such section is createdObviously this is not a view shared by all editors as seen here where a German editor returns the Germanized name of a Polish city to the lead, this needs to be clarified. Personally I support the view, to remove names from lead, but if this is not accepted than there should be no double standards.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 14:59, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
    I just want to remind Jacurek, taht on Talk:Biržai there was a discusssion, which finaly led to solution and compromise suitable for many users and many towns. I do also see a difference between a "Name" and translation of the object's description like it was noted on Talk:Bernardine Cemetery, and after this discussion the article remained stable for a long time, so I was thinking the compromise was reached.--Lokyz (talk) 17:23, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

    Comment by uninvolved Hodja Nasreddin

    I followed several AE cases to understand what must be done by someone who wants to edit conflict-free, especially in the area of discretionary sanctions. Surprisingly, this boils down to a very simple rule: do not edit war under any circumstances. Even if you revert once a week, someone will bring you to AE. It goes like that: no reverts -> no conflicts -> no sanctions. This apply to all sides and almost all AE cases.Hodja Nasreddin (talk) 15:42, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

    Comment by Deacon of Pndapetzim

    Don't understand why my comments at Misplaced Pages talk:Naming conventions (geographic names) were mentioned. In the comments Volunteer Marek/Radek was referring to, I expressed my opinion that we ought to be weighted against having alternate culture names in leads (in order to avoid nationalist wars). As it appears this AE request was brought against Jakurek for going around inserting such names into leads, I'm very confused as to why my comments are claimed to support his case? Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 22:23, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

    Punishing users for following BRD ... good idea?
    Add: As I and others have argued at Misplaced Pages talk:Naming conventions (geographic names) , we should be predisposed to be sceptical towards the addition of these names, which in practice is usually nothing more than nationalist scent-marking; inserting them in knowledge of their controversy is the behaviour that is disruptive and violates our conduct policies; removing such inclusions follows our conduct policies. I'm concerned about the level of actions being taken against certain users merely because, over a few years, they've reverted inclusion of alternate language versions of place-names. As placing these names (and indeed removing stable ones) is inherently controversial in these area, why does WP:BRD not apply? Why should anyone be punished for following it? I also find the idea that you can get sanction for some reverts of various warring IPs over a couple of years quite ghastly. This is simply punishing users for having an account: not a good idea. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 16:18, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
    WP:BRD involves stopping after a single revert. The names at issue have been added and removed more than once. Also, edit-warring is forbidden no matter whether one reverts IPs or users with an account.  Sandstein  16:27, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
    BRD means that if you are bold, and you get reverted ... you discuss it. It doesn't mean that if you revert a controversial edit you have to simply accept the edit if the other editor or a friend just doesn't feel like respecting BRD himself. The editors placing the alternate names, esp. in the last few years (the Piotrus 1 extends amnesty to edits preceding the case), know their edits will be opposed but apparently think it worth the fight. This is the disruptive behavior. Whether or not the disruptive behaviour causes an edit war depends on whether or the inserting users fight to keep their controversial edit; reverting any reverts of a controversial edit is the only way other users can practically adhere to the spirit of BRD. The way to solve this is not by punishing the users who are reacting to the controversial edits via BRD, but by adjusting our tolerance of such controversial edits in the first place. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 16:51, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

    Surprisingly, I am in (rough) agreement with Deacon here. At least one proposed sanction (on VM, who made no more than 1 revert to each article in question, and participated extensively in talk discussions) seems to say that "following BRD can still get you in trouble". Is this really a message we want to send to the community? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 17:40, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

    Comment by Mymolobaccount

    Proposing topic bans to all editors who are actively working on solving the naming dispute so they won't be able to achieve solution to the issue? That's wikipedia at its finest. Sandstein's behaviour here and proposals are one of the most counterproductive to Misplaced Pages and cooperation between editors from opposed POV's that I have seen. Two opposite sites are sitting down to talk and solve the issue, Sandstein comes in and proposes to ban active participants instead of letting them work out a solution on which they are working in good faith and in civil manner. --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 00:53, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

    Comment by Vecrumba

    For the most part I have pretty good relations with editor on both sides of the fence, generally being "pro-" both sides. I would be happy to assist in mediating, anything is better than more draconian measures which breed nothing but bad blood. Unless someone proposing any solution is intimately aware of the historical conflicts underlying naming disputes, any action they take (hello admins!) will make things worse, not better. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 01:00, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

    Yes, I believe these are excessive sanctions. If they edit warred over naming conventions, they should be either placed on 1RR per week restriction or banned from editing names. Hodja Nasreddin (talk) 03:14, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

    Comment by M.K.

    • Diffs which supposedly should show my “nationalistic” revert warring with IP from 2008-2009 time frame lacks background. That IP is full time abusive revert warrior, I complained about abusive nature of that IP and his various IPs farm one, two, three times. Community offered little interest in those cases during that time, but surprise surprise Radeksz aka Volunteer Marek was the first who attacked me back then . The same IP range reappearing in those articles again now of course supporting EEML group as usual. Of cause none of current admins looking into these IP again.
    • From relevant time frame I made two reverts with 10 hour time gap on the listed article. I'm surprised that it could cause offense and I am sorry for that and whatever damage you think this might caused. I was frustrated that community is not willing to help nor do they care about, as I saw the case with disruptive IP case or the EEML case itself, when one of the most notorious groups are enabled to operate in old habits again as if EEML revelation never happened. For instance:

    user: Volunteer Marek constantly stalking editors again:

    Comment by BorisG

    I would recomment to admins to err on the side of caution. If there are clear and persistent patterns of disruption (e.g. edit warring), sanctions may be called for. However without a persistent pattern, a warning is enough. Also if disruption is caused in a very niche area like this naming saga, sanctions should only apply to this activity. Topic banning editors for niche violations is throwing productive editors with the bathwater.

    I would also suggest that admins give a strong warning to all involved editors NOT to use the AE page as a battleground. - BorisG (talk) 17:19, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

    Thank you for that uninvolved perspective. The sooner AE is closed down as a forum for content control—specifically, not entertaining charges of disruption unless there are clear and repeated violations of 3RR, sockpuppetry, et al.—the sooner editors will be forced to deal with each other. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 18:56, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
    One area where I would sanction draconian measures is perma-banning anyone who sockpuppets in an area of conflict. There's no excuse for that. Unfortunately, in the Wikiworld, that would only result in immediate charges of sockpuppetry, for example, where multiple editors might attend the same university. The moral is, the more draconian the enforcement, the larger the carrot being held out to those seeking to control content. For now, those editors control content the most effectively who have mastered the art of the unintended consequences of enforcement. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 19:04, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

    Comment by Novickas

    I'm really sorry to see that we haven't been working towards compromise and consensus on the alternate names issue. Not surprised; there's a lot of long-standing bad blood. But I think the problem would be better addressed by more discussion at the guideline pages and more participation by outsiders at the individual articles. (I don't think they need to be experts in the area.) I'd rather see a 1RR per week/per editor for renaming (in Sandstein's intepretation of renaming) at all Eastern European articles. Because the admins here will be wanting to keep clear of voicing their opinions at these articles, could we agree on a separate venue to discuss them? Pick some previously-uninvolved editor out of the pool of mediators, say? Novickas (talk) 00:27, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

    Result concerning Jacurek

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

    I encourage editors to make only comments directly pertinent to the request, because "the usual infighting, bickering and sniping", as Volunteer Marek puts it, is likely to WP:BOOMERANG in the form of sanctions. Fut. Perf., I agree that the request looks actionable at first glance, but without a WP:DIGWUREN notification diff, we are forbidden to act on it.  Sandstein  14:53, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

    Jacurek has been sanctioned (and, through each sanction, obviously, also warned) under DIGWUREN half a dozen times. Just look at the log. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:12, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
    But we still need a diff of a valid warning for the record. This should do, and I recommend that you complete the request with it.  Sandstein  16:18, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
    Indeed, this will do, and, with all due respect, demanding that I also paste it somewhere up there now that you've already seen it is taking bureaucratic process-wonkery to an unprecedented extreme. No, I won't. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:23, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

    OK, as a preliminary opinion, I think that there is actionable evidence that several editors have engaged in edit-warring to remove or add names from the leads of the articles named by Fut.Perf. and Jacurek, as can be seen in the history of e.g. Bernardine Cemetery (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). I suggest that we compile a consolidated list of reverts by editor and decide on that basis whether to sanction anybody, after requesting the involved editors to comment. If not other admin disagrees, I'm going to start compiling such a list.  Sandstein  06:45, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

    I believe that any campaigns of mass removal or mass addition of alternate-language names should be looked into. Sandstein's idea of making a consolidated list of reverts sounds good. EdJohnston (talk) 13:22, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

    I've started the list below; all admins are welcome to help complement it. We should try to cover all previously EE-warned editors and recent edit wars.  Sandstein  19:18, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
    Before we start discussing sanctions against individuals, I submit the following principles for administrator discussion:
    • Whether the reverts complied with the applicable naming guidelines is irrelevant, as such edits are not exempt from WP:EW. Also, compliance with this guideline is a content issue, because it requires editorial judgment, and cannot therefore be reviewed in an arbitration context.
    • Reverts from earlier years are relevant insofar as they are part of a continued edit war involving the same editors, or as part of a pattern of adding or removing the same language (see below).
    • Edit-warring to add or remove a language from any one article does not necessarily reflect bias, as there may be policy-based grounds for such reverts (even if these do not excuse edit-warring). But a pattern of consistently adding or removing the same language from multiple articles cannot be reasonably explained on guideline grounds, since the guideline makes reference to the use of names in English-language literature, which differs from topic to topic. Such a pattern of editing, therefore, can only be explained by a desire to put nationalist bias ahead of Misplaced Pages policy and guidelines. This makes such a pattern incompatible with WP:NPOV and, consequently, grounds for sanctions.  Sandstein  21:10, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

    Further admin comments about the Result concerning Jacurek

    • I've made a new sub-heading to clarify that this is where admin comments can continue. Move this section below if you prefer. I'm glad Sandstein has collected the evidence on these articles because it helps narrow the issue. I see that other participants have also been notified, and we await their responses. Among the possible actions we might take, we could consider a ban on adding or removing any alternate names for articles. This ban would be applied to all editors listed below who have previously been sanctioned under any Eastern European cases. This would mean renaming bans for all the editors below except M.K., who could be notified of the discretionary sanctions and warned. Banned editors could still argue on the talk pages for changing the alternate names.
    • This assumes that the discussion here reaches a conclusion on which of these changes in alternate names exceed the limits of good-faith editing. Sandstein's argument is that consistent changes to promote the same ethnicity are usually in bad faith. I see the logic of that, especially for people who were previously sanctioned. (These aren't newcomers who are unfamiliar with our customs). EdJohnston (talk) 05:32, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
    • A renaming ban is a good idea for (at least some of) the editors discussed here. But I'm not convinced it that it is sensible to extend it to all editors under EE sanctions. We have no evidence that this is a widespread problem in this topic area (although I wouldn't be surprised if it were) or with most previously sanctioned editors.  Sandstein  21:53, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
    • My proposal is to consider a renaming ban only for the editors named in your table below who are also under EE sanctions. Perusal of the dates of these reverts of the alternate names shows that a good number of the reverts have occurred since 1 March. If there is a recent upsurge, and if the editors below are the main ones doing the reverting, that is a reason why they should come to our attention. It distinguishes them from the other sanctioned EE editors. EdJohnston (talk) 22:09, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
    Right, I agree; I misread you. I'm proposing an editor-by-editor analysis and sanctions below, based on the principles submitted above and the evidence collected below.
    • Jacurek has engaged in nationalist edit-warring about names, violating WP:EW and WP:NPOV. He has a very long history of EE sanctions, up to a 6 months topic ban, so his "last chance" moment has already passed. Proposed sanction: indefinite EE topic ban.
    • Volunteer Marek has made individual reverts in support of and in conjunction with Jacurek's nationalist edit-warring about names. He has a moderate history of EE sanctions, and notably a past sanction for covert coordination of edits with Jacurek (WP:EEML#Radeksz). Proposed sanction: six months renaming ban as described below; warning for expressing what sounds like nationalist prejudice on this page ("Polish editors, unlike Lithuanian ones, actually follow policy").
    • M.K has participated in nationalist edit-warring about names. They have not previously been warned about arbitration sanctions, so none can be imposed here. Proposed consequence: warning.
    • Dr. Dan has participated in nationalist edit-warring about names. He has also made mild personal attacks ("trolling", "trolling"). He has a moderate history of EE sanctions. Proposed sanctions: indefinite renaming ban, three months topic ban.
    • Lokyz has participated in nationalist edit-warring about names. He has also made slightly more serious personal attacks ("ex-admin RPG player", "Dyslexic"). He has a limited history of EE sanctions. Proposed sanctions: indefinite renaming ban, three months topic ban.
    A renaming ban mans that the editor is banned from changing, removing or adding names (including translations) in a Eastern European language with respect to a subject that the same article already designates with a name in another Eastern European language. This notably also covers anything that appears as part of the article (such as categories, images or templates), and moving pages. For the purpose of this ban, "Eastern European language" includes German.  Sandstein  23:11, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
    @Sandstein: I support all the bans you've recommended above. I suggest keeping this open for at least another 24 hours to see if more admins will comment. EdJohnston (talk) 00:31, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
    Considering that the principles and sanctions proposed above have not been opposed by an administrator after two and a half days; that no other administrator (or uninvolved user) has commented here a day after a request for more input at WP:AN, that I have discussed the application of WP:EW to this case in more detail at my talk page, that the arguments advanced by the users at issue (to the extent that they have made a statement at all) are unpersuasive; based on the considerations above and the evidence below, in application and enforcement of Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Digwuren#Discretionary sanctions, the sanctions proposed above are enacted. They are notified to the users and logged at WP:DIGWUREN#2011.  Sandstein  06:45, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

    Name-changing reverts in the EE topic area

    Jacurek

    Jacurek (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (warning), partially copied from the request

    Previous sanctions: many blocks up to 3 months for topic-related misconduct; WP:DIGWUREN 1RR restriction (2009) and interaction ban (2010); WP:EEML#Jacurek and WP:EEML#Jacurek topic banned (6 months in Dec 2009)

    Volunteer Marek

    Volunteer Marek (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), previously editing as Radeksz (warning)

    Previous sanctions: Three non-overturned topic-related blocks; WP:EEML#Radeksz and WP:EEML#Radeksz topic banned (rescinded in June 2010)

    M.K

    M.K (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (notified) (no warning found)

    Previous sanctions: none

    Dr. Dan

    Dr. Dan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (notified) (warning)

    Previous sanctions: 2 incivility blocks, WP:DIGWUREN interaction ban for 3 months in 2010

    Lokyz

    Lokyz (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (notified) (warning)

    Previous sanctions: One non-overturned AE block; Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Eastern European disputes#Lokyz admonished and restricted for edit-warring (2008)

    Tentontunic

    Closing as no action. Insufficient evidence provided for violation of 1RR and most recent revert cited is 54 hours old. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 05:43, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

    Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

    Request concerning Tentontunic

    User requesting enforcement
    TFD (talk) 02:14, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Tentontunic (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
    Sanction or remedy that this user violated
    Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/#Digwuren
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

    Violation of 1RR:

    1. 8:30, 16 March. 2011
    2. 23:11, 16 March, 2011
    3. 0:47, 17 March, 2011
    4. 23:51, 17 March, 2011

    (2 & 3 are adding new material - 1 & 4 are deleting material.)

    • Reply to T. Canens (1) 1. is re-writing the section " Western perspectives on terrorism committed by groups claiming adherence to Communist ideology/Usage of the term" and removal of a synthesis tag. 2. is new material - Tentontunic had added similar material to Mass killings under Communist regimes, and I confused the articles. 3. is insertion of text at the beginning of a section that changes the emphasis - the section originally began by saying that "Communist terrorism" was "a term used by the Nazi Party as part of a propaganda effort". It now begins "one of the features of was the use of terrorism". 4. is deletion of the section "Usage of the term. Tentontunic set up an RfC which is still on-going to consider changes because "no clear consensus has been reached". (2) A request for clarification determined that this article comes under Eastern European articles and 1RR was imposed under Digwuren sanctions. TFD (talk) 12:58, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
    • Reply to Sandstein The article comes under "the EE topic area anyway" because EdJohnston put discretionary Digwuren sanctions on the article. This was based on a request for clarification that was agreed to by Steve Smith, Coren, Fritpoll, Vassyana, SirFozzie, KnightLago, Hersfold, Mailer diablo/A, and Rlevse. I suggest that if Sandstein wants to apply sanctions against me for believing that this article should be included under Digwuren sanctions that he apply for sanctions against those arbitrators and administrators as well, just as he has complained about Dreadstar. I would also ask Sandstein whether he believes that the personal attacks by Tentontunic represent a standard of which he approves. TFD (talk) 05:28, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

    Personal attacks on other editors:

    And Jonathan is wrong, it really ought to surprise me that you would restore a BIAS tag on this article, yet on left wing terrorism you remove one within a few hours. You argue on communist terrorism to no end, you appear to be tendentious in your approach to articles which may be critical of communism in fact. Did you not just get warned for just this behavior? We have here an article, about mass killings which happened under communist regimes, it does not matter how many died under capitalism, or democracy, or the rule of the evil overlords of the mole people. What matters on this article is how many died under Communist Regimes. Tentontunic (talk) 23:14, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

    Then why do I require yours? Should you try and add your proposal to the article you will require consensus, just as I do. What you have written above is little more than propaganda, and an entire waste of time. You say you wish to see a NPOV article, then please try and write in a NPOV manner. Tentontunic (talk) 00:13, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

    I added my proposed content above today, the proposal had two editors who agreed with the inclusion, P Siebert reverted this with the edit summary, no consensus. But then proceeded to add content only he himself has agreed to. I fully intend to remove this as it is nothing more than a propaganda piece. And I should like Paul Siebert to explain why he feels justified adding content with no consensus, but removing content which at least had two people agree to and only him objecting. Tentontunic (talk) 19:05, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

    So what your saying is, I need consensus, and you do not? As stated, what you have written is pure propaganda, there is no other way to describe it. You have basically written "these are not communists" You have given undue weight to a fringe uncited paper, you have made an entire hash of it. It`s junk and needs to be excised, at least what I had written was mainstream and neutral. Tentontunic (talk) 23:03, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

    Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
    1. Warning by The Four Deuces (talk · contribs)
    2. Warning by Paul Siebert (talk · contribs) 20:03, 17 March, 2011
    Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)
    Block or warning
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint
    <Your text>
    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

    Discussion concerning Tentontunic

    Statement by Tentontunic

    Comments by others about the request concerning Tentontunic

    Upon reading the TFD's request I realised that some comments are needed, because the way TFD represented the issue is somewhat confusing, and for an uninvolved person it is almost impossible to understand the underlying conflict. I personally believe that this request is somewhat premature, however, as far as it has been filed, we have to continue with that.
    This story starts with this Tentontunic proposal made on Feb 26, which was an absolutely correct step from the procedural point of view.
    This proposal lead to long debates, and eventually I asked Tentontunic's permission to take this text as a base and to modify it, a proposal he totally agreed with .
    I have made some changes (considerable changes), which, in my opinion, fixed accuracy and POV issues of the proposed text , and from this moment the things started to develop in a wrong way.
    Firstly, Tentontunic initially declared that the text is awful and requested for references .
    My request to explain what concretely is wrong with the text was rejected , and I had to do some time consuming job to collect needed references to address Tentontunic's request .
    When the needed references have been provided, Tentontunic stopped to respond.
    However, immediately after the article became unprotected, he added his own (initial) version of his text into the article , totally ignoring my modifications, sources and arguments.
    I added the modified version (which, in my opinion, was quite a natural step, because by abstaining from discussion Tentontunic implicitly recognised that he had no counter-arguments), and this my edit was reverted back under a pretext that there is no consensus for either proposal.
    In connection to that, I have to say that Tentontunic's understanding of the consensus policy is deeply flawed, because he believes that unsupported claims like: "" It`s junk and needs to be excised, at least what I had written was mainstream and neutral" are sufficient to remove a properly referenced text from the article. I recommend to read the discussion in the Talk:Communist terrorism#Recent changes section to get a more complete impression about this story.
    My conclusion is that, since Tentontunic is a relatively unexperienced user, it would be possibly premature to speak about serious sanctions, however he has to be seriously warned about the need to observe WP policy.--Paul Siebert (talk) 04:09, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

    AE is to be used for complaints related in some way to the arbitration result for Digwren. In the case at hand, this is a case of TFD using WP as a personal battleground. His actions about Tentontunic are not based on seeking NPOV on WP, but on silencing a voice he sees as opposing his. Including but limited to a remarkable series of AfDs and an egregious example (really - read this one as a sparkling example of WP:BATTLEGROUND!) where the only way he would have ever found the articles is by looking at Tentontunic's edit history and not by actually randomly seeking out articles in any specific group or for any specific rationale otherwise. AE requests by TFD against Tentontunic at , edit war complaints made at , SPI report made at showing an ongoing battleground which, properly examined, should not be held against Tentontunic. In point of fact, while Digwuren has little to do with any of this, I suggest that whoever examines this (noting Paul's rather unique view of this, and his similar views on many pages including one where he asserted that I must hold a specifc view on pseudoscience becasue I disagree with him on whether Communist terrorism is a proper topic for WP) examine the use of noticeboards repeatedly for WP:BATTLEGROUND acts. Examples of Paul's acts in this include: wherein he asserts that I was not "uninvolved" with regard to pseudoscience issues because " L2 and Collect have been extensively involved in disputes on several Communism related WP pages, such as Communist terrorism and Mass killings under Communist regimes. It is not a secret that the users working in this area frequently display more or less pronounced partisan behaviour, and, taking into account that Collect and L2 definitely belong to the opposing camps, Collect can hardly be considered as a neutral uninvolved party in a discussion about the L2 block. ... For sake of objectivity, I believe I have to explain that, since I myself also frequently participate in Communism related disputes, and since L2 and I belong to the same camp, I cannot be considered as an uninvolved party." Paul is clearly acting here as a battleground ally, and admits it as such when he improperly accused me of taking sides on a what he considered a pseudoscience issue, and where my position may be read by any arbitrator or admin. Collect (talk) 07:27, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

    @ T. Canaens: They are not, and are not. And have absolutely nothing to do with the topic of Digwuren sanctions. Note the WP:BATTLEGROUND at play. Collect (talk) 11:36, 18 March 2011 (UTC)


    @ T. Canaens: Re your #2. This article is under 1RR applied per the discretionary sanctions authorized in the Digwuren case. Frankly speaking, I have no idea why the broad Communism topic has been connected to the Eastern Europe, however, that is a decision of administrators, who seem to bee seek and tired of the constant edit war over this article. One way or the another, since all editors working in this area appeared to be restricted with 1RR per the Digwuren case, the reports of the case when this system is gamed should be filed here.
    Re your #1. As I already wrote, I see no formal violation of the 1RR in this case, so this report seems somewhat premature. However, the spirit of the policy is definitely violated, because the user removed the text that was written in full accordance with WP:V, WP:NPOV and WP:NOR policies under a laughable pretext that it is a piece of propaganda (without providing any support for that claim), and introduced another text where the same events were represented in a quite different way to push quite opposite POV. Concretely, this text , which was removed by Tentontunic, states that " this term ("Communist terrorism" PS) has been applied by the US administration to the actions of Communist partisans during Vietnam war to affect both the domestic and South Vietnamese public opinion and to justify the actions of the US army as "counterterrorist" measures.", and this text, which was added by him, presents Vietnamese "Communist terrorism" as a broadly accepted term without any reference to its origin from the US war propaganda. This is definitely a revert, and this revert is not supported by the users, and importantly by what the sources say (see, for instance, a discussion there ). However, the most important thing here is that Tentontunic believes that he can revert any edit without providing serious evidences for that. That is not what the policy states, because the neutral text, which is supported by reliable sources and contains no synthesis cannot be removed simply because some users believe it is a propaganda.--Paul Siebert (talk) 14:41, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

    @ Sandstein. The 1RR restriction has been applied per the discretionary sanctions authorized in the Digwuren case. Therefore, if these sanction are in effect, then the article does have a connection with the EE topic (where the term "Eastern Europe" is defined broadly). However, if the topic has just a tangential relation to the EE issue (the point I fully agree with, unless the definition of "Eastern Europe" includes the whole Earth), then 1RR restrictions should be removed, because the Digwuren case is applicable to the EE issues only.--Paul Siebert (talk) 22:14, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

    Comment by Volunteer Marek

    This report is just another piece of evidence for the fact that WP:AE is just another weapon in the battleground toolbox, nothing more. It is the battleground, it creates battlegrounds, it makes existing battlegrounds worse, not better. You make blocks and sanctions cheap, demand for blocks and sanctions goes up. And so you get endless frivolous reports which just waste everyone's time, and embitter editors against each other.Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:42, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

    Marek, unfortunately, although the report is premature, it hardly is "frivolous". The editor refused to discuss the proposed text, removed it under a pretext that it is "propaganda" (without providing any evidences that the text written based on western scholarly articles and containing no synthesis can be a piece propaganda), and introduced his own text without any attempt to discuss it on the talk page. All these steps could be simply reverted per normal rules, however, since the article is under 1RR, this step may lead to sanctions against a user who will do that. Therefore, we simply have no choice other than to go to this page.--Paul Siebert (talk) 14:53, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
    Sandstein: Recommending closure with a warning to Tentontunic not to make invalid AE requests. - ummm, Tentontunic is not the one who made this invalid AE request. TFD did. And he might have already been warned before about making invalid AE requests (I can't remember whether this was "official warning" or just people telling him to chill out with these - I'd have to go back and look through the archives).Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:53, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
    Thanks for pointing out that I miscopied the username; that has been corrected.  Sandstein  22:01, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

    Comment by Martintg

    We all seem to agree this report is premature. Looking at the diffs presented by TFD there are no reverts. The only revert I see in the edit history is the one by TFD. I have to agree with the others that this report appears to be an attempt by TFD to wikilawyer a sanction via AE to get the upper hand in a content discussion, this kind of WP:BATTLEGROUND antics is just as disruptive as any real edit warring. Therefore I think WP:BOOMERANG should apply. --Martin (talk) 00:16, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

    Result concerning Tentontunic

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
    • The request is not very helpful because it does not show what the diffs are supposed to be reverts of. I can't see a 1RR violation at first glance. Nothing of what Tentontunic The Four Deuces writes makes this issue more clear. And like Timotheus Canens I am not sure how the article is in the EE topic area anyway. Recommending closure with a warning to Tentontunic The Four Deuces not to make invalid AE requests.  Sandstein  20:50, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

    ZjarriRrethues

    Athenean and ZjarriRrethues subject to an interaction ban and cautioned. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:12, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

    Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

    Request concerning ZjarriRrethues

    User requesting enforcement
    Athenean (talk) 02:30, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    ZjarriRrethues (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
    Sanction or remedy that this user violated
    Misplaced Pages:ARBMAC#Final_decision#Decorum

    Misplaced Pages:ARBMAC#Final_decision#Purpose_of_Wikipedia

    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

    ZjarriRrethues is an editor that frequently edits Greece-related topics in a persistently tendentious, incivil manner, misusing sources and engaging in other forms of intellectual dishonesty, lately exhibiting strong signs of WP:POINT and WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior and engaging in personal vendettas. Specifically:

    Collapsed for readability
    Deliberate, extensive, systematic manipulation of sources

    ZjarriRrethues has become an expert at gaming Misplaced Pages's sourcing requirement to push his POV. He does so by using a variety of means, such as quoting snippets from Google Books out of context ("snippet abuse"), distorting the wording so as to completely change the meaning, selectively quoting from his own sources, and so forth.

    • A crystal-clear, recent example can be seen here , when it turns out that in fact the exact opposite is true . Incidentally, ZjarriRrethues frequently rails that M. Sakellariou is an unreliable Greek nationalist source , however, when it suits his purpose, as here, he has no problem using him.
    • Though this is the most recent instance of source fraud, it is part of a persistent, long-established pattern. Another excellent example is here , when again the exact opposite is true .
    • Also here , as pointed out here .
    • Quite brazen is also this instance here , as illustrated here . The claim that the prefecture was predominantly Albanian and Bulgarian is nowhere to be found in the source.
    • Falsely adding "According to Greek media", when in fact one of the main sources used in the article is The Balkan Chronicle , which is not Greek . Piqued that he can't have his way, he then starts tagging the article in revenge (where he sees "peacockery" is beyond me).
    • Another crystal-clear example is here , when he adds that only the town of Himara is predominantly ethnic Greek, even though the source used clearly says that the entire district of Himara is such. When I point this out in the talkpage , he changes tack, attacking the source though it meets WP:V.
    • Another manifestation of egregious intellectual dishonesty is removal of sources he doesn't like on the flimsiest of grounds, for example here , even though if the Greek tribes lived south of the Zeta valley in Montenegro, that would automatically imply they lived in Albania as well. On the other hand, he doesn't mind mentioning Montenegro in the same article when it suits him .
    • Again, this isn't an isolated incident, but part of a long established pattern, e.g. here (removing the source on the grounds that it is "offline", and again here , where he removes a perfectly reliable, peer reviewed academic publication on the spurious grounds that it is "fringe, POV, and biased" (after having first removed that the region of Himara is predominantly Greek , which is what the source supports - under the bogus edit-summary of "precise").
    • Yet more tendentious editing and spurious source removal can be seen here (removing "bilingual" without explanation, even though many sources in the article attest to that). I think the point is clear by now. Months later he comes back again , apparently unable to let it rest (and again note the misleading edit summary, as he removed "bilingual" but makes no mention of that in the edit summary).
    • Quoting from sources in a highly selective manner is another favorite tactic, clearly shown in this new article he recently created , where for instance he makes sure to omit that source #1 includes the organization among organizations that are "ethno-nationalist" in nature, and also makes sure to omit information such as "However, the combination of the recent change in approach towards minority issues, together with High Court's reversing of a previous restriction on the operation of the the Turkish Union of Xanthi has served to alleviate the tension in this area" , which is critical in influencing the reader's perception. The article in general is highly POV, something which I will return to in this report.
    • Again, such behavior is nothing new, as can be seen here , where he makes sure to "omit" the rest of the relevant info from the source .
    • Other examples of tendentious editing can be seen here (highly POV re-write of the lede), here (without so much as an edit-summary), (removing the word "Greek" from an ancient Greek city in Albania that was the political center of one the local ancient Greek tribes, the Chaonians, even though the sources clearly describe it as such), (describing an extremist nationalist organization (even by the standards of the region) as "liberal nationalist" under the misleading edit summary of "precise" - by now, whenever I see an edit by Zjarri-Rrethues with the summary of "precise", I assume something's up), and it goes on (speaks for itself), and on (the source says exactly that ).
    Incivility, threats, assumptions of bad faith, contempt for others
    • Incivility and assumptions of bad faith ("...as always...", "...like always..." note that "or deductions" and "oring" is Zjarri's self-made jargon for WP:OR). Here he is taking it upon himself to remove another user's comments on the spurious grounds of WP:RANT , when in fact this is not the case. Here he is calling another editor a meatpuppet without any evidence or basis whatsoever .
    • In discussions involving content disputes, ZjarriRrethues routinely threatens other users with "I will seek admin intervention", "I will go to ANI", etc.. , in a clear attempt to intimidate other users. This has a chilling effect on discussions, and goes against the very heart of the principle of decorum.
    • When backed into an intellectual corner, he immediately starts accusations of personal attacks ("npa comments" in his own self-made jargon for WP:NPA), again in an attempt to intimidate.
    • Condescension, contempt for others: . Even simple, politely put questions are met with contemptuous sarcasm .

    The above diffs are bad enough. But what made me file this report was a recent incident, where after being unable to have his way on Ioannina Vilayet, ZjarriRrethues explicitly expressed an intention to retaliate by pushing a pro-Turkish POV on various articles (that's what the gist of the "too few Turkish editors" part). This shows a clearly vindictive and spiteful intent, and above all WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality. True to his word, he creates the following highly unbalanced, POV article (for the reasons mentioned above, i.e. quoting from his sources in a highly selective manner). That the article is highly POV and unbalanced is plainly obvious (a litany of negativity), and is clearly solely intended to portray Greece in as negative a light as possible as a way of spiting Greek users. In 6k+ edits, he has hitherto never shown the slightest interest in the Turks of Western Thrace, and now this, after his stated declaration to push a pro-Turkish POV. He has also concurrently engaged in other highly POINTy behavior, where, after I objected fact that practically every single sentence in Ioannina Vilayet begins with "According to..." , he threatens to "retaliate" on Greco-Turkish War (1919-1922) , just to make a point. True to form, he does just that . This is pure WP:POINT: He has never shown the slightest interest in that article up until now, he is merely using the article to make the point that since Justin McCarthy is used as a source in Ioannina Vilayet without the qualifier "According to", then I shouldn't object to him being used with the qualifier in the Greco-Turkish War article. Inane, petty, and POINTy.

    Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

    User has been warned of ARBMAC sanctions in the past, and sanctioned as well .

    Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)
    Topic ban from anything to do with Greece, Greeks, Greek editors, etc...
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint
    ZjarriRrethues is the classic example of a national POV advocate who has found ways of gaming the wikipedia environment so as to largely avoid sanction. Yet, while in perhaps isolation most of the above diffs may not be deserving of a topic ban, the overall picture is one of a user who has engaged in persistent, systematic disruption and abuse of the system. His incivility and contempt for other makes it impossible to collaborate with him. There are many users I have had disagreements with, but none so implacably hostile and impossible to work with as ZjarriRrethues. His persistent gaming of the sourcing requirement is particularly insidious, as it is difficult to detect and even more difficult to point out. But the recent POINTy, vindictive behavior goes beyond any past disruption and raises the disruption to the next level. I have lived with ZjarriRrethues' POV-pushing for over a year now, and I have never before taken him to AE, partly because I understand that we are all human and have our national backgrounds and POVs. To push one's national POV is bad enough. But to want to retaliate against users of a certain nationality by explicitly stating an intention to push a particular POV that he knows would annoy them is the epitome of a spiteful, vindictive, disposition and is a sanctionable instance of WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior and breach of decorum. This user has shown some capability of being productive in topics that have no relation to Greece or Greeks, but I am convinced that, for whatever reason, he has an axe to grind with that particular country.
    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
    Reply to ZjarriRrethues
    • The allegation that I have been "making constant reports" regarding ZjarriRrethues is both severe and false. Constant reports? Hardly.
    • With the exception of Lamiskos, Sagudates and Belegezites all the other Greece related articles are about Arvanites, Albanian villages, Albanian commissioned churches, so on. This user is very keen on "proving" that this or that place in Greece, or some individual was in fact Albanian. As for the Sagudates and Belegezites, I suspect the interest there stems from the Fallmerayer-ian POV he has expressed .
    • The only formal action I have taken regarding ZjarriRrethues are two SPIs long ago, the claims that I reported him "some other times to admins" and that all the reports contain the phrase "spiting Greek users" are again false. I should note that it was for making false statements at WP:AE that ZjarriRrethues was sanctioned with an interaction ban against me . This is the first time I report him to AE, while he already filed 3 non-actionable AE reports on me since September (filed the same report twice after it was ignored the first time).
    • Regarding Hellenic Nomarchy, there remains the question that since according to you Sakellariou is such an unreliable nationalist source, why use him at all? Is it because in this particular instance he appeared to portray Ali Pasha in a positive light?
    • Regarding Kastoria Prefecture, this claim is nowhere to be found in the source, which in fact says this , which was corroborated by another user (and I think it's about the city rather than the prefecture anyway). This is the problem with using snippets.
    • Regarding the antiquity of the Albanian ethnic identity, why did you essentially negate my change here to this , which implies that the references to "Arbon" and "Albanoi" in Polybius (2nd century BC) and Ptolemy (2nd century AD) refer to Albanians rather than peoples of uncertain ethnic identity, which is the case?
    • As far as Phoenice goes, the explanation for this is completely inadequate. You didn't add "Roman", you just removed "Greek", when in fact the town was founded by Greeks (the Chaonians), who are moreover the earliest recorded inhabitants of the place. Not only that, but Phoenice never ceased to be inhabited by them, nor is there any evidence of substantial Roman or Illyrian settlement in the town. Even to this day, the nearby settlement of Finiq is ethnic Greek. If we follow your logic that "Greek" should be removed because it was conquered by Rome, then we should apply the same to every single ancient Greek city out there. Furthermore, this is also completely false. The Illyrians never stayed there for even a year.
    • The Byzantine Empire was predominantly Greek-speaking, and that is blindingly obvious. In fact the entire Eastern Mediterranean basin was part of the Koine-speaking world since even before the Roman conquest, while Greek became official sometime in the 7 century, i.e. for most of the Empire's history. The Empire was even referred to by its contemporaries as the "Empire of the Greeks".
    • Regarding Kanun, the addition which you removed on the grounds that it was OR clearly says that it entered Albanian via Ottoman Turkish, not that entered Albanian via Arabic. I don't see how much clearer that could be.
    • What do you mean Byllis is only "once attested as a polis"? If it's attested once, it's attested, period. Doesn't matter if it's attested once, twice, or thrice. Moreover, it is listed in the Inventory of archaic and classical poleis here .
    • From Byzantine Empire, the article never said that it was "Greek", but "Greek-speaking", which even the source you have provided here supports .
    Reply to Sandstein

    You are correct that the tone I have used in this report may be overly confrontational. I regret that but I cannot undo it, however I will adopt a less confrontational tone henceforth.

    • Hellenic Nomarchy: I don't think this meets WP:CONCEDE. He's not really admitting fault. There is also the question of why use Sakellariou in the first place, since the user has gone on the record that he considers him a Greek nationalist and hence unreliable.
    • Battle of Bizani: The point here is in Cplakidas' edit summary , not so much the edit itself. It is my impression that ZjarriRrethues was less interested in actually improving the article, than in finding an opportunity to make the point that Ioannina was predominantly Albanian. Yet, as Cplakidas makes clear, if he had actually read the entire source, he would have realized that the opposite is true. Also note that an interest in Albanian demographics is a recurring thread throughout the evidence of this report.
    • National Republican Greek League: The problem here is that while perhaps individual sources aren't grossly misrepresented (though they are stretched as you say), they do not support the rather serious claim of "Collaboration" with the Nazis, which was the title of the section. Going by the sources, the claim of collaboration simply does not add up. If the material from the sources had been added in the main text without being part of a "Collaboration" section it might have been acceptable, but to create a "Collaboration" section on the basis of these sources is not.
    • Himara: When I alleged falsification because of this (his removal of region), the very first source of the article clearly says that the district of Himara is predominantly Greek. True, at the location where he removed "region", both sources only mention the town, but since he went over the sources so meticulously, I find it hard to believe that he would have missed the fact that the very first source used in the article says "the district".
    • Regarding the what I allege to examples of tendentious editing, I mean just that, not that they are misrepresentation of sources. In Apollonia (Illyria), he removed one of the alternate names because it was Greek, removed that it was a Greek city , stated that it was a settlement of the Taulantii without a source, changed it "was a city in modern Albania" which just sounds odd and so forth. He is basically trying to portray the city as "Illyrian" as possible and minimize it's "Greekness" as much as possible. He does so without any sourcing. Regarding Byllis, again, I do not allege source falsification here, but this edit is tendentious : He removes sourced information without so much as an edit summary, while here he removes that Phoenice was a Greek city without adequate justification: The town was founded by Greeks (the Chaonians), who are moreover the earliest recorded inhabitants of the place. Not only that, but Phoenice never ceased to be inhabited by them, nor is there any evidence of substantial Roman or Illyrian settlement in the town. Even to this day, the nearby settlement of Finiq is ethnic Greek. If we follow his logic that "Greek" should be removed because it was conquered by Rome, then we should apply the same to every single ancient Greek city out there. There is clearly a pattern whereby he tries to remove the word "Greek" from the description of ancient cities in Albania. This description of a nationalist organization as "liberal nationalist couldn't be further from the truth , and he also used a misleading edit summary ("precise") while tagging it as minor. Removing something as well-known that the Byzantine Empire was Greek-speaking is tedious, as that is one of the salient, and well-known features of said Empire.
    • Regarding the Kanun, I am not so much alleging source falsification, as a dishonest removal using a misleading edit summary. There is absolutely no WP:OR in this instance. ZjarriRrethues is moreover quite fluent in English, I do not buy that he misunderstood the source. The source says in turn via Arabic, i.e. it entered Turkish via Arabic, not that it also entered via Arabic (which makes no sense - how can a word enter via two different languages?)
    • As far as the statements of intending to go to AN/I and seeking admin intervention, he in fact not once went through with it. This leads me to believe that he never actually intendended to do so, but was merely using it as a rhetorical device because he knew it would intimidate other users (how could it not?).
    • Regarding Kastoria prefecture, I had included the wrong diff, which I have now fixed. I think the misuse of the source is quite clear.
    Clarification

    I am getting the impression that Sandstein thinks that everything I allege falls under "misrepresntation of sources". However, that is not true. Some does, but some falls under simple tendentious editing, e.g. his removal from Kanun under a false edit summary of WP:OR.

    Reply to Future Perfect at Sunrise

    You are correct when you say that there is a complete breakdown of trust between the various parties. I'm not sure I agree with your 60/40 assessment or for the need for bans all around. Then there is also the question of this , which as far as I'm concerned marks an unprecedented low by ZjarriRrethues, and is the core of this report.

    Discussion concerning ZjarriRrethues

    Statement by ZjarriRrethues

    • I don't see any violation of any policy by any of my edits. I have written many good articles, some of which are related to WikiProject Greece and they were featured on DYK. I've written DYK content that is related to WikiProject Greece, while the user who reported me has been following my edits since the time I signed up to wikipedia and making constant reports regarding me.
    • My contributions to Greece-related articles include:
    1. Lamiskos
    2. Song of Marko Boçari
    3. Battle of_Achelous (1359)
    4. Church of St_Athanasius of Mouzaki
    5. Leontari, Thebes
    6. Kastri, Thesprotia
    7. Belegezites
    8. Sagudates
    9. Tasos Neroutsos
    10. Vangelis Liapis
    11. Gregory IV of Athens
    12. Turkish Union of Xanthi


    • I received an interaction ban in the past because I reported Athenean i.e my ban wasn't edit-related. Athenean has reported me twice to SPI, some other times to admins and now to AE. All the reports contain phrases like the spiting Greek users one and many attributions of nationalist motives to me. If I was a nationalist I wouldn't refute sources that say that Albanians became emperors of the Byzantine Empire in the 4-5th century AD(i.e prove the existence of a concrete Albanian ethnic identity), while they were first attested in the 11th century AD in historical records. What kind of nationalist wouldn't want to prove that his nation is half a millenium older?


    • Athenean says that my article Turkish Union of Xanthi is highly POV(although it did pass the DYK review by a much more experienced user with 31k edits), so the verdict on the article's pov is on that and if someone wants to add that it's a nationalist or any other kind of organization he should add it. Btw Athenean saying that the article is solely intended to portray Greece in as negative a light as possible as a way of spiting Greek users is excessively inappropriate. I wrote the Turkish Union of Xanthi and I also wrote Lamiskos. Does the Lamiskos article also show that grossly negative intention that is being attributed to me constantly by Athenean?


    • Regarding the Hellenic Nomarchy issue I made a mistake that I couldn't predict because the google search result doesn't show the whole quote . Of course after it was proven that I was mistaken I accepted it. I only quoted Sakellariou in order to not quote a WP:PRIMARY and yes I have many times said that he is a nationalist source because that is how other scholars label his works
    • Regarding the Battle of Bizani, which Athenean labels as an excellent example of source fraud: This is the quote from the source and this is my edit , which is a precise quote from the work, so the verdict is on the comparison. Regarding the National Republican League a Greek user claimed that one of the sources shouldn't be used because it was connected with the Communist resistance groups and I accepted it, however the part that isn't related to that(collaboration of Athens branch) is undisputed and other Greek users accepted it .
    • Regarding Kastoria: This is entirely WP:IDONTLIKEIT because the edits I made use as sources also Greek authors and there's no misuse . Athenean says that the source says nothing about the prefecture, but my edit also doesn't say anything about the prefecture i.e I didn't make deductions about it.
    • Regarding the Death of Aristotelis Goumas isn't WP:PEACOCK when Athenean the creator of the articles wrote sentences like The death sent shockwaves through the ethnic Greek community of Albania of course I added such tags. In Himarë one of the sources that I removed as offline then was indeed offline since you had to buy the book to verify it and it didn't even have snippet view option, while the source that among others says that there were Albanian emperors of the Byzantine Empire in the 4-5th century AD is unreliable and fringe since Albanians were attested for the first time many centuries later. If I was an Albanian nationalism pov-pushing user, why would I support its unreliability instead of using it to prove the existence of an Albanian identity many centuries before the current wikipedia version?
    • Regarding the Zeta valley issue deductions like that implies automatically... are WP:OR i.e Athenean should find a source that says ancient Greek tribes lived in northern Albania along the Shkoder lake opposite to the Zeta valley, instead of assuming that it is automatically implied...
    • Phoenice was for some centuries an important city of the Chaonians, but in the 3rd century AD it was conquered by Rome and it became a Roman city and remained such until the end of its existence in the 6th century AD. Would you label as an ancient Greek city a settlement that belonged to such tribes from the 5th to 3rd century and for the next 700-800 years it belonged to the Roman and after the 4th century AD to the Eastern Roman Empire?
    • Regarding the Byzantine Empire: Was the Byzantine Empire a predominantly Greek-speaking empire(similar to saying Was the Roman Empire a predominantly Latin-speaking Empire?)? It wasn't a predominantly Greek-speaking Empire, because although coine Greek became official at some point the native language of the majority of its citizens wasn't coine Greek. Btw that didn't even have a source, so of course it was WP:OR.
    • Regarding Kanun it's a word that entered Albanian dictionary via Ottoman Turkish, which acquired from Arabic i.e not via Arabic but via Turkish.
    • Regarding my comments about Turkey-related articles Athenean says that I expressed an intention for Turkish pov-pushing, which I didn't express.
    • When some users WP:IDHT any kind of argument, it's obvious that you have to start RfCs, ask admin intervention, go to relevant boards i.e that's not attempt to intimidate other users as Athenean says.
    Replies
    • Regarding Death of Aristotelis Goumas: the NEA newspaper is a Greek one as well as in.gr and that's why I changed eyewitnesses to Greek media.
    • Regarding Kastoria Prefecture: This is the quote I was using and I also added on the talkpage , but when I added it I didn't add the full link quote and because many users were editing/reverting each other at the same time eventually Dianna reverted a revert that wasn't even mine..
    • Kanun: The text I reverted says 'and in turn via Arabic, which isn't even correct. In Albanian it entered via Turkish not also via Arabic.
    • Regarding Apollonia: My edit(about the Illyrian settlement) is sourced by Wilkes, while some of the rest are parts of other sections of the articles and I just added a brief summary of them on the lead. I also removed the Greek city because it became a city of the Ardiean Kingdom and then the Romans captured it from them, while the two names kat'Epidamno and pros Epidamno aren't an actual name but just a description(pros Epidamno means near Epidamnos). Athenean claims that I stated that it was a settlement of the Taulantii without a source, but I added Wilkes as a source .
    • Regarding Byllis: I removed the polis attribution, because as I added below it is only once attested as polis(only once it was described as a polis by Stephen of Byzantium in the 6th century AD, which by that time had the meaning of an early medieval township or commune/an actual ancient polis, but it's not labeled by none of the contemporary or later scholars as a polis, whatever Stephanus meant i.e the lead shouldn't say was an ancient polis located in Illyria) since it's only once labeled as such by someone who lived many centuries after the era, in which a settlement could be a polis) and I also removed the Pyrrhus as a founder theory, because it was actually conquered by him and I added the source. The city being the settlement of the Bylliones was already a part of the article.


    • Regarding the Byzantine Empire: Greek language at some point became its official language and lingua france but the empire was a multiethnic empire and in no way the majority of its people were Greek-speaking(i.e people whose mother tongue was Greek)

    Regarding Yanya Vilayet: I explained that because there were no official statistics about ethnicity in the Ottoman empire, all views should be attributed to the scholars, which was also accepted in a ECCN discussion I started . However, Greek users were trying to not attribute to each scholar his own view, but add it as a fact. I also started a RfC, in which the only person who replied agreed with the Ottoman censi issues and the Greek views. Athenean had also agreed about the Ottoman censi, but later changed his comment and supported the non-inclusion of the fact that Sakellariou's work is a Greek view(he has been labeled as a standard nationalist on various subjects)

    • I agree with many parts of FutureP's comment and I appreciate his honesty. I may have a solution regardinghow to stop this circus. Sandstein's assessment has shown that although there were a few ambiguous cases and even less, in which I did misrepresent sources, many of the ones so far assessed don't represent intellectual dishonesty or misuse of sources. Many times during these disputes I have to repeat myself and always find my arguments get WP:IDHT as a response. For example in the Zeta plain dispute I explained many times to the user, who added it that it's not backed up by the source and yet the misrepresantion of sources continued with reverts and more source misuse, while Athenean included my edit in this report and labeled it as an example of a manifestation of egregious intellectual dishonesty, which was retracted only after Sandstein's and FutureP's assessments. Usually during these disputes I have to start a RfC, in which most people don't reply because the same users that were part of the dispute, continue the discussion on the RfC section and it soon becomes too long. Other times I go directly to FutureP's talkpage and ask for his opinion, which isn't given in many disputes, however, in the very few disputes that he actually decides to intervene all cases are almost immediately resolved. Which brings me to my proposal. If in any of these disputes there was a quick assessment of the situation by someone like FutureP or Sandstein, there wouldn't be any long-drawn and trivial discussions or misrepresentation of sources and eventually no edits like the one regarding the Zeta valley would be reported to AE.--— ZjarriRrethues —  08:58, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

    Comments by others about the request concerning ZjarriRrethues

    Evaluation of the evidence by Sandstein

    This request makes very severe allegations in a very confrontative tone, so looking at the conduct of both users appears necessary. If the evidence holds up, sanctions against ZjarriRrethues appear unavoidable, but if much of it does not, the same applies to Athenean for making this kind of request. I'll use the space below to examine some of the claims made in the request.

    Athenean claims:
    "ZjarriRrethues has become an expert at gaming Misplaced Pages's sourcing requirement to push his POV. He does so by using a variety of means, such as quoting snippets from Google Books out of context ("snippet abuse"), distorting the wording so as to completely change the meaning, selectively quoting from his own sources, and so forth. A crystal-clear, recent example can be seen here , when it turns out that in fact the exact opposite is true ."
    ZjarriRrethues later admitted (, ) that his citation was incorrect.
    My assessment: ☒N/checkY This item of evidence proves an improper use of sources by ZjarriRrethues, but not necessarily out of bad faith rather than mere carelessness. After all, ZjarriRrethues was quick to admit his mistake, which Athenean does not mention.  Sandstein  10:42, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
    Athenean claims:
    "Though this is the most recent instance of source fraud, it is part of a persistent, long-established pattern. Another excellent example is here , when again the exact opposite is true ."
    ZjarriRrethues wrote:
    "The surrender of Ioannina, a predominantly Albanian town by the Ottoman empire to the Kingdom of Greece is regarded as more of a loss for Albanians because it would have secured the southern end of the Albanian state in the same that Shkodër secured its northern border."
    The edit that Athenean claims is true was made by Cplakidas, and reads:
    "The surrender of Ioannina secured Greek control of southern Epirus and the Ionian coast, whilst denying it to the newly-formed Albanian state."
    The cited source, Hall p. 95, reads: (Link can be found via Google, but probably not copyright-kosher, so not linked here)
    "The Greeks took Janina at relatively little cost to themselves. They demonstrated that they did possess a competent military, capable of functioning in difficult conditions. They also acquired a location that guaranteed them control of an Ionian hinterland stretching from the Gulf of Arta to Corfu. The real losers here were not the Ottomans, but the Albanians. Janina, a predominantly Albanian town, could have secured the southern end of the new state in the same way that Scutari would anchor the north."
    My assessment: ☒N No misrepresentation of sources by ZjarriRrethues. What ZjarriRrethues wrote matches the cited source. In contrast, what Cplakidas wrote (and Athenean claims is true) does not, as "southern Epirus and the Ionian coast" are not mentioned on p. 95 by Hall.  Sandstein  10:30, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
    I wouldn't say that Cplakidas/Athenean's version would have been wrong. "outhern Epirus and the Ionian coast" is a reasonable paraphrase of "an Ionian hinterland stretching from the Gulf of Arta to Corfu". But I also can't see much wrong with Zjarri's version. Both versions simply emphasise different aspects of the sourced passage. I agree with you about your analysis of the "Hellenic Nomarchy" incident. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:00, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
    Athenean alleges that ZjarriRrethues misused sources "Also here , as pointed out here ."
    ZjarriRrethues wrote:
    In various towns and villages EDES members were aiding members collaborationist organizations. During the operations of the German army in the area of Mount Helicon EDES members acted as guides on mountain paths. Along with the British government the German authorities in Greece provided covert assistance to EDES, which increased the quality of the armament of the group. Since autumn 1943 EDES and the 12th Army of Nazi Germany had important connections, which led to an armistice and a collaboration pact against the other major resistance group of Greece, the Greek People's Liberation Army in February 1944. In 1948 The Century Foundation reported that accusations regarding collaboration of EDES with German and quisling authorities had damaged its reputation. After World War II, Zervas the leader of EDES participated in Dimitrios Maximos' cabinet as Minister without Portfolio from 24 January to 23 February 1947, and afterwards as Minister for Public Order until 29 August 1947. The United States of America and the United Kingdom opposed his appointment suspecting him of collaboration with Nazi Germany during WWII and dictatorial ambitions.
    1. ^ Saraphes, Stephanos G. (1980). ELAS: Greek resistance army. Merlin. p. 194. Retrieved 16 October 2010.
    2. Thomas, Nigel; Abbott, Peter (1983). Partisan warfare 1941-45. Osprey Publishing. p. 26. ISBN 9780850455137. Retrieved 16 October 2010.
    3. Kretsi, Georgia (2002). Ethnologia Balkanica. Ethnologia Balkanica. Vol. 6. Berlin: LIT Verlag Münster. p. 182.
    4. Smothers, Frank Albert (1948). Report on the Greeks: findings of a Twentieth Century Fund team which surveyed conditions in Greece in 1947. Twentieth Century Funds. p. 31. Retrieved 16 October 2010.
    5. "ΚΥΒΕΡΝΗΣΙΣ ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΥ ΜΑΞΙΜΟΥ - Από 24.1.1947 έως 29.8.1947" (in Greek). General Secretariat of the Government. Retrieved 2010-07-13.
    6. Iatrides, John; Wrigley, Linda (1995). Greece at the crossroads: the Civil War and its legacy. Penn State Press. p. 137. ISBN 0271014113.
    My assessment: Looking at the sources claimed to be misused, I find:
    • NGL 1: ☒N/checkY ZjarriRrethues cites this snippet, but this seems to be a Google-related error, because this snippet reads "... organizations, and in the mopping-up operations on Helicon, EDES men even acted as guides to the Germans on the mountain paths", and so supports at least the second part of what ZjarriRrethues wrote. On this basis I cannot find that there has been misrepresentation of sources. What is problematic, though, is that ZjarriRrethues does not make clear that the author, Stefanos Sarafis, was a leading officer in ELAS, the enemies of EDES at the time, which draws his reliability into doubt. On the other hand, ZjarriRrethues later admitted as much.
    • NGL 2: ☒N ZjarriRrethues writes:
    "Along with the British government the German authorities in Greece provided covert assistance to EDES, which increased the quality of the armament of the group."
    The cited source reads:
    "... but because it received rather more British aid (and also some covert German assistance) it was better armed and more conventional in structure."
    This basically supports ZjarriRrethues's text, even though the paraphrasing omits the "some" qualifier. I do not find misrepresentation of sources here.
    • NGL 3: ☒N ZjarriRrethues writes:
    "Since autumn 1943 EDES and the 12th Army of Nazi Germany had important connections, which led to an armistice and a collaboration pact against the other major resistance group of Greece, the Greek People's Liberation Army in February 1944."
    The cited source, Kretsi at p. 182, footnote 42, reads:
    "Since autumn 1943, there was an important connection between EDES units in north-west Greece and the 12th mountain army corps and in early February 1944 led to an armistice and a pact of mutual assistance against ELAS".
    ZjarriRrethues's text fairly represents the cited source. It is a bit a stretch to render "a pact of mutual assistance" as "collaboration pact", but the basic meaning seems to be the same. I find no misrepresentation of sources here.
    • NGL 4: ☒N ZjarriRrethues cites this snippet, but it appears that he meant to cite this one, which shows the relevant text. He writes:
    "In 1948 The Century Foundation reported that accusations regarding collaboration of EDES with German and quisling authorities had damaged its reputation."
    The snippet reads:
    "Accusations of collaboration with the enemy and with the quisling Security Battallions (in action against the major resistance movement and in collusion with the collaborationists of Athens) had damaged the reputation of EDES."
    ZjarriRrethues's text matches that of the source; there is no misrepresentation. "In 1948 The Century Foundation reported ..." simply means that the Foundation reported that such accusations were made; it does not mean, as per the allegation in which Athenean joins, that the Foundation made these accusations themselves.
    • ☒N The allegation in which Athenean joins also addresses something concerning one "Gonatas" in a book by one McNeill, but a reference to either is not found in the text by ZjarriRrethues, reproduced above, cited as evidence by Athenean. This means I can't find a problem here either.  Sandstein  11:47, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
    Athenean claims:
    "Falsely adding "According to Greek media", when in fact one of the main sources used in the article is The Balkan Chronicle , which is not Greek .
    At , ZjarriRrethues removed a reference to "eyewitnesses" and replaced that word by "Greek media", writing:
    "According to eyewitnesses Greek media the death occurred after an altercation in Goumas' store," and "... demanded that he not speak to them in Greek according to eyewitnesses Greek media."
    My assessment: checkY The source cited here, (translation) does not say anything about "Greek media", but it does say "eyewitnesses". I find that by making this edit ZjarriRrethues did misrepresent the cited source.
    Athenean claims further:
    "Piqued that he can't have his way, he then starts tagging the article in revenge (where he sees "peacockery" is beyond me)."
    The explanation given by ZjarriRrethues for this is unpersuasive. He writes:
    "isn't WP:PEACOCK when Athenean the creator of the articles wrote sentences like The death sent shockwaves through the ethnic Greek community of Albania of course I added such tags."
    But WP:PEACOCK refers to "peacock terms" as promotional terms such as "legendary, great, eminent, visionary, outstanding...". Nothing like that can be found in the article. It is therefore incomprehensible, and I find it disruptive, that ZjarriRrethues tagged the article as "peacock", "overcoverage" and "inappropriate tone" without any explanation.
    I find it likewise disruptive, though, that Athenean uses emotional terms such as "piqued" and "revenge" to characterize these mistaggings, without providing any evidence for these characterizations.  Sandstein  12:31, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
    Not sure I agree about the "eyewitness"/"Greek media" thing. Of course, the "Ta Nea" source says "eyewitnesses", but that source and the next one are in fact "Greek media" (the only non-Greek one, to which Athenean refers, is "Balkan Chronicle", whose status as a RS may be in doubt; I can see no indication that they have the potential for much independent journalistic research.) Whether and in what cases it is legitimate to hedge the validity of a source by a qualifier such as noting its nationality is a difficult editorial issue, but doing so is not "falsifying" the source. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:50, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
    Athenean claims:
    "Another crystal-clear example is here , when he adds that only the town of Himara is predominantly ethnic Greek, even though the source used clearly says that the entire district of Himara is such. When I point this out in the talkpage , he changes tack, attacking the source though it meets WP:V."
    In the following text, ZjarriRrethues added the underlined words "The town of":
    "The town of Himara is predominantly populated by an ethnic Greek community.
    My assessment: checkY This change is not supported by the source given in the same sentence, as the citation provided in the reference shows. ZjarriRrethues has therefore misrepresentated this source.  Sandstein  14:49, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
    Yes, apparently a mistake in not changing/updating the source. It seems the jury is still out on whether the edit was actually factually correct. I notice that in its present state the relevant section of the article claims that "the ethnic composition of both the town and region predominantly Greek", with two references that don't support the second part of the assertion either, so, somebody else must also have been falsifying sources in a similar way. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:03, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
    Athenean claims:
    "Another manifestation of egregious intellectual dishonesty is removal of sources he doesn't like on the flimsiest of grounds, for example here , even though if the Greek tribes lived south of the Zeta valley in Montenegro, that would automatically imply they lived in Albania as well. On the other hand, he doesn't mind mentioning Montenegro in the same article when it suits him ."
    My assessment: ☒N This is a content dispute about who lived in which valley and does not establish source misrepresentation. As ZjarriRrethues notes in reply, the statement that "the Greek tribes lived south of the Zeta valley in Montenegro, that would automatically imply they lived in Albania as well" is original research unless backed by sources. It's also not clear why it would be dishonest to mention at that certain finds in Albania are similar to certain other finds in Montenegro.  Sandstein  15:16, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
    I'd go even further and say the source misrepresentation was in the other version, which Zjarri removed. The source quite clearly does not state Greek presence reached up to a place where they bordered on the tribes of the Zeta valley, but only that they may at some point during the Bronze age have bordered on those tribes which in classical times were near the Drin valley, but which may have been "southernmost outliers" of those near the Zeta. The Drin is a lot further south than the Zeta. The removal was clearly justified. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:37, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
    Athenean claims:
    "Again, this isn't an isolated incident, but part of a long established pattern, e.g. here (removing the source on the grounds that it is "offline", and again here , where he removes a perfectly reliable, peer reviewed academic publication on the spurious grounds that it is "fringe, POV, and biased" (after having first removed that the region of Himara is predominantly Greek , which is what the source supports - under the bogus edit-summary of "precise")."
    My assessment:
    • checkY It is indeed not clear why at ZjarriRrethues removed the source with the edit summary "the source is offline". The source is, in fact, a book, which is offline by nature, as represented at Google Books, which has been very much online for years. It is true that the cited page 187 is not shown in Google's preview, but that does not invalidate the reference to the book: at the most, the URL could have been removed, not the whole citation. Moreover, ZjarriRrethues tagged the edit as minor, which it is clearly not. This edit was disruptive.
    • ☒NWhether ZjarriRrethues was justified to dismiss a source as "fringe, pov, biased" is a content dispute that can't be adjudicated here. At any rate, the source looks like it is self-published, so there may well be policy-based grounds for its removal.
    • ☒N At ZjarriRrethues removed the words "and region" from the text "The ethnic composition of both the town and region is predominantly Greek", which is sourced to p. 39 of the same source. The relevant text on p. 39 reads: "In the mountain town of Himara, where the population predominantly consists of members of the ethnic Greek minority ...". This means that ZjarriRrethues's edit correctly changed the article to reflect what the source says: the town has a Greek majority, but nothing is said about the region. Athenean's statement to the contrary is false. ZjarriRrethues again mistagged the edit as minor, but Athenean's previous revert was also so mislabeled.  Sandstein  15:43, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
    ☒N The content removals at and may or may not have been correct or a good idea, but that is a content dispute that has nothing to do with "deliberate, extensive, systematic manipulation of sources", under which header this evidence is submitted.
    ☒N Athenean objects that the articles as created or edited by ZjarriRrethues omits certain information, allegedly present in the sources, that would present the organization in a less positive manner. But that, too, has nothing to do with "manipulation of sources". Choosing what to include, and what to exclude, in an article is a necessary exercise of editorial judgment, and disagreements about it are content disputes. Selective use of sources is not a misrepresentation of sources, as long as all content that is referenced to sources correctly represents what these sources say.
    • ☒N The many edits given as "other examples of tendentious editing" seem to reflect content disputes as well. It is not clear from the evidence, nor from looking at the edits, how ZjarriRrethues might have misrepresented sources by making these edits. There is one case that warrants a closer look:
    At Kanun on 1 July 2010, ZjarriRrethues removed the following text:
    "It entered Albanian via Ottoman Turkish (and in turn via Arabic) and was used by the Ottomans to describe local self-governance customs throughout the empire."
    He did so with the edit summary "wp:or not supported by the source(no reference to the word entering Albanian via Arabic))". The source says on p. 111:
    "The term Kanun, etymologically related to Greek canon, 'pole', 'rule' and transported through Arab into early Turkish, derives from Ottoman administrative concepts of indirect rule and self-governing ..."
    In his statement, ZjarriRrethues explains that "it's a word that entered Albanian dictionary via Ottoman Turkish, which acquired from Arabic i.e not via Arabic but via Turkish". That is indeed what the source says, and that is probably what whoever wrote the article text meant to say as well, but did not clearly express. I am assuming in good faith that ZjarriRrethues misunderstood the text "(and in turn via Arabic)" to mean that the Albanian word was directly derived from Arabic. Even so, he should not have deleted the text outright, but should have tried to make more clear what the source says. Still, this deletion, even if arguably detrimental to the article, is not a misrepresentation of sources, because what's left still correctly represents what the source says (even if not all of it).  Sandstein  18:45, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
    • Under the header "Incivility, threats, assumptions of bad faith, contempt for others", Athenean claims:
    "Incivility and assumptions of bad faith ("...as always...", "...like always..." note that "or deductions" and "oring" is Zjarri's self-made jargon for WP:OR). Here he is taking it upon himself to remove another user's comments on the spurious grounds of WP:RANT , when in fact this is not the case. Here he is calling another editor a meatpuppet without any evidence or basis whatsoever ."
    My assessment: checkY/☒N I agree that some of these edits are problematic with respect to the "you're always..." attitude, but not severely so. Only one edit is really problematic: "only RfC or RSN will make you not revert everything that doesn't support Greek nationalist theories" (, January 2011).
    • Moreover, Athenean claims:
    "In discussions involving content disputes, ZjarriRrethues routinely threatens other users with "I will seek admin intervention", "I will go to ANI", etc.. , in a clear attempt to intimidate other users. This has a chilling effect on discussions, and goes against the very heart of the principle of decorum."
    My assessment: ☒N I don't feel intimidated by another editor announcing that they will seek admin intervention. If the request for admin intervention is well-founded, it is unobjectionable. If it is not well-founded, then the admin will say so. Such announcements, therefore, are not disruptive, even if they are not very helpful either. They may be a breach of decorum, but not one requiring sanctions.
    • Athenean goes on to state:
    "When backed into an intellectual corner, he immediately starts accusations of personal attacks ("npa comments" in his own self-made jargon for WP:NPA), again in an attempt to intimidate."
    My assessment: checkY/☒N Making accusations of personal attacks that appear to be unfounded (as here or here) is clearly not good talk page protocol. But in one case cited in the evidence, here, the reference to WP:NPA was appropriate, as the other editor did make such personal attacks as "the albo that trolls most greek articles..skanderbeg is 'albanian' but bouboulina isnt 'greek'? why dont you clean your national myth infested house of an article zjarri before coming over here...?" ().  Sandstein  19:16, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
    • Furthermore, Athenean says:
    "Condescension, contempt for others: . Even simple, politely put questions are met with contemptuous sarcasm ."
    My assessment: checkY These comments are incivil:
    • "Alexikoua it seems that you can't even understand basic geography of the Balkans" (January 2011)
    • "you can't even understand basic English phrases" (February 2011)
    • "Antid. I was going to write that article, so please move that draft piece you started on your sandbox or csd it. Btw please read WP:COMPETENCE." (January 2011, apparently relating to this, which is not prima facie incompetently written)
    • "Antid. please csd your article as it is of a very low quality like the Albanian revolt of 1912, Republic of Korçë etc. FutureP has told you not to deal with subjects, about which you don't possess the necessary knowledge." (January 2011)
    • Athenean says that what motivated him to make this request:
    "was a recent incident, where after being unable to have his way on Ioannina Vilayet, ZjarriRrethues explicitly expressed an intention to retaliate by pushing a pro-Turkish POV on various articles (that's what the gist of the "too few Turkish editors" part). This shows a clearly vindictive and spiteful intent, and above all WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality."
    Athenean refers to this comment by ZjarriRrethues:
    "Btw I should edit some of those Turkish-related articles, because it seems that although it's such a large country too few Turkish users edit topics related to their own state."
    My assessment: ☒N That statement can only be interpreted as an announcement of POV-pushing if one assumes the maximum bad faith possible, which we don't. Also, the article complained about is not "plainly obviously" unbalanced. For a reader unfamiliar with the topic, such as I, there is nothing obviously negative or biased in the article.
    • Finally, Athenean says:
    "He has also concurrently engaged in other highly POINTy behavior, where, after I objected fact that practically every single sentence in Ioannina Vilayet begins with "According to..." , he threatens to "retaliate" on Greco-Turkish War (1919-1922) , just to make a point. True to form, he does just that . This is pure WP:POINT: He has never shown the slightest interest in that article up until now, he is merely using the article to make the point that since Justin McCarthy is used as a source in Ioannina Vilayet without the qualifier "According to", then I shouldn't object to him being used with the qualifier in the Greco-Turkish War article. Inane, petty, and POINTy."
    My assessment: ☒N/checkY That interaction looks pretty poor on both sides.  Sandstein  19:55, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
    General comment by Fut.Perf.

    What we have here is a long-standing situation of a "travelling circus", with three users (Athenean (talk · contribs) and Alexikoua (talk · contribs) on the one side versus ZjarriRrethues (talk · contribs) on the other) following each other into countless disputes, often leaving yesterday's dispute half-resolved while getting embroiled in the next. None of the three is acting in bad faith, and all three could have something constructive to offer, but there are two factors that have made the situation unbearable.

    The first is the mutual, deeply entrenched, tendency of evaluating each and every edit under the single perspective of emphasizing the historical role of one's own ethnic group and de-emphasizing that of the other, making the one side look historically good and the other bad. Each and every topic, be it ever so trivial, is (mis-)used to serve this agenda – from ancient etymologies through the genealogies of medieval personalities through the roles of this or that political group during the wars of the 20th century, to the demographics of minorities today. It's an obsession, there's no other word for it. It's extremely tedious, and often extremely silly.

    The second factor is the equally mutual, equally deeply entrenched feeling of distrust that has evidently taken possession of both parties, and which regularly leads to talk page discussions breaking down. People on both sides regularly lack the patience of spelling out their arguments in concrete terms, dealing out accusations instead. They're so engrossed in their permanent disputes that they've in fact developed their own private dispute jargon that only they can understand. All of them act opportunistically when it comes to asserting or dismissing the reliability of sources, depending on whether they can offer an opportunity for scoring points in their ethnic tug-of-war; all of them are quick to point out the failures of correct sourcing in the other side while being prepared to resort to the same kinds of sloppiness themselves the next day.

    In terms of talk page behaviour and quality of source work, it is my personal, quite subjective impression that Athenean is slightly better than Zjarri, and Zjarri is a good deal better than Alexikoua; while in terms of content merits Zjarri is more right than wrong in about 60% of the time, and more wrong than right in the remaining 40%. Needless to say, these subjective impressions are impossible to prove with diffs.

    All three of them know I've gone on record repeatedly with exasperated calls for having the lot of them banned. But somehow that would be a pity too. I really don't know what else to do about them. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:48, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

    Very broadly speaking, I get the same kind of feeling from what I have reviewed of the evidence so far. I'll continue reviewing it, but should I come to agree with your assessment, we will have to consider how to stop this circus.  Sandstein  21:32, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

    Result concerning ZjarriRrethues

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

    After reviewing the evidence, I conclude:

    • The evidence establishes multiple incidents of misconduct by ZjarriRrethues, including source misrepresentation, incivility and personal attacks, as well as substandard compliance with referencing and other editorial standards.
    • But most of the evidence does not hold up under review. This makes most of the request not actionable. In particular, Athenean has failed to support many of his very severe and wide-ranging accusations against ZjarriRrethues, including "an expert at gaming Misplaced Pages's sourcing requirement to push his POV", "distorting the wording so as to completely change the meaning", "a user who has engaged in persistent, systematic disruption and abuse of the system" or "the epitome of a spiteful, vindictive, disposition". This, in and of itself, is problematic conduct on the part of Athenean.
    • The incidents cited in the evidence and the tone of the AE request give credence, prima facie, to Future Perfect at Sunrise's theory that both editors "have a mutual, deeply entrenched, tendency of evaluating each and every edit under the single perspective of emphasizing the historical role of one's own ethnic group" and an "equally mutual, equally deeply entrenched feeling of distrust ... which regularly leads to talk page discussions breaking down".

    I see two options how we could proceed here:

    • We could determine which sanctions are appropriate for both editors on the basis of the present evidence.
    • Or, and I tend to prefer this option, we could engage in a broader review of the editing of at least Athenean and ZjarriRrethues, and possibly other members of the "traveling circus", and if we find that it confirms Future Perfect at Sunrise's view, indefinitely topic-ban all of them (as it seems evident that little useful editing can occur under such circumstances).
    • ZjarriRrethues's proposal that administrators mediate individual disputes does not appear workable, as this is not the job of admins, and I do not think that one would find many volunteers for such duties.

    What do other admins think about how to proceed?  Sandstein  20:20, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

    I haven't read through all the evidence yet bust based on your comments, Sandstein, I wonder if a simple interaction ban might be worth trying—banning each party from talking to or about the other and from reverting the others' edits. We could see how that went and then consider broadening the sanction if it becomes clear that that won't put an end to the dispute. Just throwing it up, others' mileage may vary. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 05:50, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
    Yes, a mutual interaction ban per WP:IBAN might work. In addition, rather than taking any action here I propose warning both editors (but in particular ZjarriRrethues, given that most evidence here relates to him) that they may be indefinitely topic-banned without further warning if, in their topic-related editing, they do the following:
    • ethno-nationalist tendentious editing (that is, a pattern of edits whose main purpose seems to be to make a particular nation or ethnic group look good or bad, even if the individual edits themselves are not objectionable);
    • misrepresenting sources (that is, making edits as a result of which article content that is attributed to a source does not correctly represent what that source says);
    • engaging in incivility or personal attacks.
    I will at some point in the future review their edits and check whether this warning has been heeded.
    Any admin objections to proceeding in this manner?  Sandstein  07:18, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
    That would seem sensible to me. If the interaction ban doesn't put an end to the disruption, it's not difficult to expand it to become a more draconian sanction. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:37, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
    OK, I'm implementing this as an interaction ban and a caution for both. If disruption continues, then we can consider tougher sanctions. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:12, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

    The Sham

    The Sham (talk · contribs) is banned from List of violent incidents in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, 2011 for a period of one year.
    HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 23:10, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

    Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

    Request concerning The Sham

    User requesting enforcement
    Passionless -Talk 18:12, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    The Sham (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
    Sanction or remedy that this user violated
    Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles#Remedies - Breaking 1RR and also NPOV/OR
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. Revert of Cptnono's work
    2. Reverted my work - the first two are consecutive so they are one revert
    3. Reverted Golgofrinchian's revert of The Sham's revert.
    4. ...
    Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
    1. Warning by HJ Mitchell (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)-not a warning but proof he was blocked for breaking 1RR on the same article.
    2. Warning by HJ Mitchell (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) - made aware of ARBPIA.
    3. ...
    Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)
    Article ban, but if his behaviour continues elsewhere, quickly expand ban
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint
    The Sham pretty well only edits this one article, I always though he was a sock, but his actions are poor enough to be blocked regardless of socking. The reverts were not only bad for being reverts, but also because they reintroduced POV problems, UNDUE, and made accusations as fact in wikipedias voice.
    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

    Discussion concerning The Sham

    Statement by The Sham

    Comments by others about the request concerning The Sham

    The sham continues to make edits to the concerned page without making any reply here, maybe action should be taken wihout waiting for a reply from the sham. Passionless -Talk 20:33, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

    Comment from Cptnono
    • I came to this page after Passionless brought up labels and how to address "riots" v "protests" at AN. He was right. There was POV from both angles. And 1/rr is 1/rr.Cptnono (talk) 20:39, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

    Result concerning The Sham

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
    I'd like to hear from others before implementing anything, but I think Passionless' suggestion of an article ban might be a good idea. It would seem more effective than another short-term block. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 18:35, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
    Agreed. Talk page blanking and no reaction to this request (indeed little communication of any kind) is not a good sign.  Sandstein  20:41, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

    Lapsed Pacifist

    Blocked for a month.
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

    Request concerning Lapsed Pacifist

    User requesting enforcement
    GainLine ♠ ♥ 17:57, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Lapsed Pacifist (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
    Sanction or remedy that this user violated
    Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Lapsed Pacifist#Lapsed Pacifist banned from affected articles
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. <Lapsed Pacifist is topic banned from articles that relate to the conflict in Northern Ireland. The article is on a topic that is a forerunner to this conflict and directly related as is evidenced by the presence of the picture in this section. There are other problems with this edit as evidenced by the note on the Lapsed Pacifists talk page. There as been misuse of the the minor edit tag and the subtle changing of language to change meaning.>
    2. <Edit to a topic directly related to Irish Republicanism>
    3. <Reintroducing back into article info relating to Irish sovereignty and Partitionism. Also LP has a long history of edit warring with this editor and the edit summary I would construe to be antagonistic. This is a pattern of behaviour that concerns were raised about at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Lapsed Pacifist 2 >
    4. ...
    Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

    {{{Diffs of prior warnings}}}

    Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)
    Admin discretion
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint
    For a background to topic, it may be necessary to consult with an Irish admin or one familiar with Irish history
    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
    ]

    Discussion concerning Lapsed Pacifist

    Statement by Lapsed Pacifist

    I have no problem defending those edits, but it kind of sticks in my craw, Gainline, that a sockpuppet-master like yourself with a brutal history of edit-warring and POV-pushing is the one to pull me on it. Your hypocrisy stinks. In the meantime, can anyone else advise me how to go about appealing those bans? One is ancient and the other is approaching old age quickly. Lapsed Pacifist (talk) 19:04, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

    Comments by others about the request concerning Lapsed Pacifist

    Result concerning Lapsed Pacifist

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

    Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Volunteer Marek

    Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found in this 2010 ArbCom motion. According to that motion, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

    To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

    Appealing user
    Volunteer Marek (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Volunteer Marek (talk) 03:45, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
    Sanction being appealed
    banned for six months from editing articles to change, remove or add names (including translations) in a Eastern European language with respect to a subject that the same article already designates with a name in another Eastern European language. This includes names in other pages that are displayed as part of the article, such as categories, images or templates, and it also forbids moving articles that have a name in a Eastern European language to a name in another language. For the purpose of this ban, "Eastern European language" includes German
    Administrator imposing the sanction
    Sandstein (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
    Notification of that administrator

    Statement by Volunteer Marek

    This is an appeal of a sanction resulting from this enforcement request: . The sanction regarding myself was enacted based on Sandstein's assessment that: Volunteer Marek has made individual reverts in support of and in conjunction with Jacurek's nationalist edit-warring about names.. The original AE request involved five articles on Polish-Lithuanian topics. These were:

    1. St. Anne's Church, Vilnius
    2. Cathedral Square, Vilnius
    3. Suvalkija
    4. Vilnius University
    5. Bernardine Cemetery
    • I made one edit to Suvalkija six months ago (August 16, 2010), so obviously I did not "edit war" on that article, nor can I be held responsible for the edit war among different users that took place six months later.
    On Vilnius University, after observing edits by User:Lokyz and User:Jacurek I posted to the talk page on March 5th, hoping to initiate discussion. My post went unanswered for four days, hence, on March 9th, I made an edit in accordance with my talk page comment. I was almost immediately reverted by User:Lokyz , even though he had not bothered to respond to my talk page comment in the preceding four days. At that point I did not make any further edits to the article and requested a third opinon , as is recommended by WP:DR (Misplaced Pages:Dispute Resolution). Subsequently, the issue was resolved. There is no way that making a single edit, and requesting other editors' assistance through WP:3O can be considered "edit warring".
    Bernardine Cemetery is an article I expanded significantly in November of 2010 (and subsequent). On March 4th, 2011, User:Jacurek added the Polish name of the place to the article and he was reverted by User:Lokyz on March 7th, 2011 with the edit summary per talk. Since in my understanding the talk page discussion that took place in December did not support Lokyz's removal, I brought the matter up on the talk page , per WP:DR, and made a single revert of Lokyz here . Note that Lokyz had not participated in any talk page discussion for the previous three months when he made his revert. Still, he immediately reverted me, literally within minutes . At that point, again, I ceased editing the article and, per WP:DR focused on discussing the issue on talk.
    Neither of these two edits - one on Vilnius University and one on Bernardine Cemetery - can be construed to constitute edit warring. They were made in good faith, along with discussion on talk page, and well in full accordance - in fact they were inspired by - WP:BRD, WP:DR, and WP:EW. Specifically:
    • WP:BRDsays: BRD is not an excuse for reverting any change more than once. - I did not revert anyone more than once.
    • WP:DR says: Most situations are not urgent. Please give both yourself and the other party some time. - I gave plenty of time for other users to respond on talk and only made my single edit when a response did not formalize. WP:DR says: If you need neutral outside opinions in a dispute involving only two editors, turn to Misplaced Pages:Third opinion. - this is exactly what I did.
    • WP:EW says: Misplaced Pages encourages editors to be bold. A potentially controversial change may be made to find out whether it is opposed. - this is what I did at Vilnius University (note that the name I added was not the name that was the subject of the edit war)). WP:EW says: Additional restrictions on reverting are sometimes imposed on particular editors and/or particular pages - but if there was a 0RR restriction on either of these two articles I was not aware of its existence.

    As far as I know, making single edits on two different articles has never been considered "edit warring" on Misplaced Pages, especially when these edits were accompanied by discussion on talk, and followed by requests for third opinion. As an editor with whom I frequently disagree with put it on my talk page afterward "this (sanction) puts arbitrary in arbitration". If single edits can really be considered "edit warring" this needs to be made explicit over at WP:EW and other relevant policy pages (see also discussion here: ) since otherwise people are going to violate these newly invented rules unknowingly (like I did). This kind of sanction also represent a tremendous extension of power held by admins who apply "discretionary sanctions" - under this interpretation pretty much any kind of single edit anywhere at anytime, no matter how policy-based-and-backed, is subject to sanctions on a whim of some administrator.

    Therefore I request that this sanction be stricken or at the very least, foregoing my insistence on the principle (and the principalities involved) here, shortened and transformed into something more reasonable and directly applicable (say a ban on removing or adding names from the lede of the articles, since it is extremely difficult to make edits to article text without sometimes removing or adding place names, especially in historical contexts).Volunteer Marek (talk) 03:45, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

    Sandstein, the EW policy does indeed state that edit warring takes place "when editors who disagree about the content of a page repeatedly override each other's contributions, rather than trying to resolve the disagreement by discussion. " - but in my case there was no "repeatedly" and I did try to resolve disagreement by discussion. Furthermore, I can't be held responsible for the fact that other editors started to edit war after my two separate edits.Volunteer Marek (talk) 14:30, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

    I should also add that while another admin agreed with Sandstein at the AE request (which isn't surprising), pretty much every other editor who commented, something like seven or eight of them, generally disagreed with the sanction.Volunteer Marek (talk) 14:31, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

    Statement by Sandstein

    Volunteer Marek correctly states that he was sanctioned for four reverts on four articles, as detailed here. However, these reverts were part of nationalist edit wars about names of places in Eastern Europe, in which names were repeatedly added and removed, often over a period of years. Such conduct is a chronic evil in Eastern Europe-related articles, where much more editing energy is often expended to edit-war about which nation gets to claim a particular place or person than for improving the article (see, for instance, the history of Władysław Syrokomla, most of which is reverts about whether he was Polish or Lithuanian)

    In this case, as an example, Volunteer Marek's edit to Vilnius University, , was part and parcel of an edit war conducted at the same time by another editor, Jacurek, who made the same or similar edits multiple times (, , , ). As a further aggravating circumstance, Volunteer Marek, then editing as Radeksz, has previously been sanctioned by the Committee for covertly coordinating edits with Jacurek for the purpose of team-based nationalist edit-warring (WP:EEML#Radeksz). He should therefore have known that anything that gives even the impression of continuing such conduct would be viewed dimly.

    I consider WP:EW to be aimed at seeking to prevent the phenomenon of edit-wars (chains of repeated reverts) as such, rather than repeated reverts by any individual editor. This is supported by the text of the policy: "An edit war occurs when editors who disagree about the content of a page repeatedly override each other's contributions, rather than trying to resolve the disagreement by discussion. ... Users who engage in edit wars risk being blocked or even banned." This is why I believe that in this case, even four single reverts can be grounds for an edit-warring sanction, because these four single reverts continued four edit wars begun by others, often years ago. The proposed sanctions in this case were open for discussion in the admin section of the WP:AE page for two and a half days, in which no administrator opposed them and one supported them.

    For these reasons, I recommend that the appeal be declined, but I am open to lifting the sanctions on request after a month or two if Volunteer Marek commits not to engage in nationalist edit wars any more, and if his conduct in the interim is unobjectionable (in particular, if he does not engage in nationalist tendentious editing).  Sandstein  07:07, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

    Statement by BorisG

    I strongly support this appeal. The wording of the policy can be interpreted in a number of ways, but no reasonable person should consider a single edit to be edit warring. - BorisG (talk) 15:20, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

    Statement by Vecrumba

    Support per BorisG and editors commenting on the original case--including ones I don't always editorially agree with. If we've determined that EE is a bed of "chronic evil" per Sandstein, where exactly is the WP:AGF in that? (Although in fairness I have to also say that WP:AGF has been gamed in the past in EE.) In this particular case, with regard to editors most likely to be engaged in the Polish/Lithuanian etc. naming wars, Volunteer Marek is far from the first to come to mind. Again, I have good relations with a number of the editors involved (across party lines) and am glad to assist.

    Also, to Sandstein regarding EEML and citing thereof, in my case (and I suspect others), timings of "canvassing" are circumstantial as I explained (and was ignored without even the decency of an acknowledgement) regarding my personally checking Email at times only once a week or less--long after participating wherever I was accused and declared guilty of collusion. Please keep EEML closed and done. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 17:25, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

    Statement by Piotrus

    Long story short, making a single edit should not be punishable (unless it is a part of coordinated edit warring or other gaming the system, which this obviously wasn't). In fact, following 1RR and WP:BRD seems to be recommended by our policies and thus is commendable, not warnable. Further, as Sandstein notes, EW referrs to editors who make repetetive edits (the "repeatedly override" part) - which VM, making 1 edit to those article, obviously wasn't. There also seems to be a consensus at talk EW that making one edit should not be treated as an edit war, thus confirming that Sandstein's interpretation of EW was quite a way off. I will note that this appeal should be seen not so much about allowing VM to go back to reverting (which he has not done much in the first place), but about correcting the error in judgment which resulted in punishing an innocent user. I strongly support lifting the restriction from VM, and I suggest everyone thinks about the implications of the remedy in the first place - least they want to find themselves warned, restricted or topic banned for making some random, single revert in the future... PS. Per Peters, I'd appreciate if references to EEML would be kept away. They do nothing but batter AGF and poison the well. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 17:40, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

    Statement by (another editor)

    Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Volunteer Marek

    Result of the appeal by Volunteer Marek

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.