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Rank insignia articles and images

Recently, an effort was undertaken to reduce the amount of non-free images appearing on rank insignia articles. These sorts of articles constituted the second largest type of article populating the top echelons of this report. Not surprisingly, there's been resistance to this effort. A debate regarding the usage is occurring here. Your input is welcome.

Personally, I'm seeing problematic stances being raised. One editor is advocating that we are a guide (despite WP:NOTGUIDE). Several editors are maintaining that we can't have an insignia article without all the insignias displayed. Some editors are suggesting we should replace the copyrighted images with images made by editors. This, in fact, is being done; this version is marked non-free while this version is marked free . Obviously the free version isn't free, as it is a derivative of the original copyrighted version. Some editors in favor of retention of the images are also accusing others of disruption and WP:POINT violations.

Regardless of your own opinion, outside help is much needed. Thank you, --Hammersoft (talk) 15:40, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Television episode screenshots

There's currently an ANI thread about images for Doctor Who episodes, where it has been suggested that there is a de facto allowance for a screenshot to be used on a television episode page without further consideration, eg "for identification". Granted, most editors when they include a shot include a compelling or difficult-to-explain scene from the show that clearly identifies it, but the scene in question may never be specifically referenced in the article.

In Acceptable Uses, we allow for "Film and television screen shots: For critical commentary and discussion of the cinema and television." I would suggest that based on how NFC and FAC go, that we need to specifically exclude "for identification" in the absence of such about the scene in question. That is, if you are including a screenshot from an episode, that scene needs to be, at minimum, discussed in the article in a critical / commentary manner; the more about that scene, the better. If this cannot be done for any scene in the episode, then there's no need for an image, regardless of how much the article begs for one. --MASEM (t) 23:48, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

• I think the situation with respect to NFCC is clear. A screenshot in the infobox is not a given in this case. If a particular screenshot illustrates a key component of the prose of the article, as supported by secondary sources attesting to that portion of the episode being a key element visually, then there's a case for including a non-free image. However, including a non-free screenshot just to illustrate the article's infobox is very clearly outside the bounds of NFCC. --Hammersoft (talk) 00:04, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
  • What the Hammer says. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 02:29, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
• Indeed, this has been long-standing policy consensus and has been upheld at dozens or hundreds of FFDs, and confirmed time after time whenever the issue has been discussed under a policy perspective. The offending practice never had even as much as coherent policy-aware argument in its defense; the only reason people have come to think they could do this is because the infobox template had that "image=" parameter. Ideally, that parameter should simply be removed, because in the relatively few cases where images really are useful, they should typically be used not at the top of the article but wherever further down on the page the supported analytical text is. Fut.Perf. ☼ 05:40, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
  • I wouldn't go that far - or at least, that's not the discussion to have here at NFC. As noted, it is off that when the screenshot is appropriate for the article per NFC, it's also very unique for the episode and thus a good capture in the infobox. I would love to discouage editors from adding screenshots willy-nilly, but removing the means to include them in the infobox is not the way; instead, as suggested above, clearly showing the line that already generally exists will help. --MASEM (t) 05:48, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
• Can't the same be said for movie posters, album and book covers, etc.? These basically get a blanket approval, and are pretty much never discussed in the article, but are accepted for identification purposes. Yet for some reason television episodes are singled out, sure some images are badly chosen, but they can be discussed case by case. But to usher a blanket ban for television screenshots with the rare exception when other media basically gets blanket approval with the same rational doesn't really make sense to me. _Xeworlebi  07:14, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

  We certainly shouldn't believe those uses are unchallengeable, and in many cases they probably are overused, but like WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS we can't address everything in one go. I can see at least one key difference - an album cover is a single image, it is the visual identification of the album, a TV show however consists of 1000's of frames why pick any one of those 1000's of frames as a particular visual identification? In reality a particular episode isn't "universally" identified by just one frame of it, ask twenty different WP editors which one and you'd likely get 20 different frames, which is why you'd want some consistent reliable third party support (several sources) for the notion it is "critical", do the same with an album and they'll all pick the same album cover, all the third parties will point to the same cover etc. --82.7.44.178 (talk) 09:50, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

  Plus, I have really never understood what that whole "identification" business is supposed to be all about. Works are "identified" by their title. If you've seen the episode and want to read about it but don't remember an episode's title, you will recognize it by its plot summary, its number and/or its broadcasting date. To claim that there is a need for "identificatory" usage of images is to claim that without the image readers wouldn't be able to understand which episode is being talked about. That's pretty absurd. (Although, I have to say, I find it just as absurd in the case of many other classes of articles, but then that's just me, I guess.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:22, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

  Then clearly a wider discussion is needed, and this shouldn't just be about television episodes, I for one haven't seen a single deletion discussion for a movie poster, etc. For some reason unknown to me television episodes are being singled out, perhaps just because less people watch those articles than movies and getting them deleted is an actual achievable option, unlike movie posters, were it would most likely receive major backlash. For example the movie poster for American Beauty doesn't particularly show something that can't be explained in words, nonetheless it got through FAR without a hitch. _Xeworlebi  10:58, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

  But they rarely are, I've yet to run across a (non-just-created) film article without a poster (given, I don't watch that may movie articles). Albums and books have often a (albeit slightly) different cover in different regions, editions, movies have often dozens of posters, clearly one can be chosen, it's not unreasonable to find a representative image of most television episode, being the main villain, a major plot point, and these are usually discussed in the reception section and other sections as well, but because for some reason there is the notion that for television episodes, unlike other media, the image must show something that can't be explained in words alone. _Xeworlebi  10:58, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

  The producer of the movie/album whatever put together the poster or cover to "depict" the movie/album. If I flip through my CD collection and usually associate the album cover very rapidly. TV shows that generally isn't a similar situation, I certainly don't flip through my DVD collection and see a single frame arbitarily picked by a WP editor from each and every episode on that DVD.So yes I think it's unreasonable for Misplaced Pages editors to decide that a particular frame is so important (OR) and contrive additional text to justify the image. What you will however find is similar to the movie/album issue that the production has an image or logo which depicts it, the doctor who title image is for instance well known and what identifies a doctor who episode, it may change from season to season and there might be an argument you identify the season using that seasons logo, but that would be on the top level article covering the season, not each episode. Similarly if the series is released to DVD there maybe an image used in a similar manner to an album cover. Whatever way you cut it though we have to meet the foundation resolution on non-free content, so the only argument I can really see is are we too permissive elsewhere, not that we should be more permissive here. --82.7.44.178 (talk) 12:03, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

  There was a very recent discussion/RFC that I think I started (within the last 6 months, I thought, but my search-fu is failing me at the moment), where I tried to propose getting rid of the "for identification" line for cover art when there is no critical discussion of the art itself (as opposed to the work it represents). This aspect was not accepted by the wider community, so we recognize cover art is allowable. But the .178 IP user above hits one of the nails on the head about why cover art is less a problem that TV screenshots, in that there is usually only one of a handful images officially published by the creator or distributor of the work that include official marketing and branding, and thus there's no personal editorial opinion of what is a good image to use. In contrast, since most TV shows lack unique title cards or promotional material (there are some Simpsons episodes that have these, for example), any "cover" image for a TV episode is going to be based on editor opinion supported, when they exist, commentary sources. Because of this, the "for identification" qualification for TV screenshots is basically bogus within the context of WP. And thus why NFCC technically disallows this already but that we need strongly language towards that end. --MASEM (t) 12:16, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

  I believe you're referring to NFUR for album/single covers and posters. Isn't every image supposed to be supported by the commentary in the article? If a particular scene is discussed in every single section of the article, and every reviewer discusses it, then it would seem logical that that scene represents the whole of the article and thus the episode in general. And from what you said and the little I read from that earlier discussion, it seems that such an image is allowable. I believe this just boiled down to whether a single image can represent an episode/the article, and thus be permissible under the previous consensus on cover art/representative image. _Xeworlebi  12:59, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

  Not to reopen the cover debates again, but the idea of using specific works like covers and logos "for identification" does not require the image itself to be discussed in any manner in the article, as the conclusion there is that there is implicit product branding and marketing that goes along with that. (If you can talk about the cover, hey great, you're 100x ahead of most cover uses). A random screenshot - even if deemed by editors to be very significant but not backed by sources - does not carry this implicit marketing identification, and thus there's no free pass for using the screenshot for identification of the work it represents - but that doesn't exclude them from being used when the scene in question is itself under discussion in the article as you suggest (see The Stolen Earth). But for every episode article where such a critical scene exists, there's like 3-5 articles where, while the episode is notable, no specific scene is called out more than any other, and that's the cases where an infobox screenshot cannot just be tossed up there "for identification". --MASEM (t) 13:17, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

  I'm not saying every article needs an image, I'm also not saying a random image can be chosen, but if the article revolves a specific scene, and every source in the article discusses that scene than that indicates to me that that image satisfies NFCC. This came up because of the infobox-image at The Impossible Astronaut. Which is backed by sources and most of the article revolves around that scene, and the rational for its deletion is NFCC1 and NFCC8 (and I disagree with both in this specific case). But on top of that it appears that those points are just plain ignored when talking cover art, which seems to fly in the face of this policy, and either I missed it or this page doesn't say that those can just be ignored in the case of cover art/posters etc. _Xeworlebi  14:06, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

  Well, again, I think the different between cover art and screenshots is that, as argued at that discussion above, carries implicit official branding and marketing that screenshots do not. Though I would be one of the first in line to limit cover art when its not discussed, I understand this rationale behind this concept, and agree that we can safely make that distinction between cover art and screenshots for identification. --MASEM (t) 14:14, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

  To be clear some images are still going to be usable, it's just not necessarily every episode article will have an image and certainly not one just plucked out of the air by a wikipedia editor. I'm not sure I can envisage an image which would be described in every section of an episode article without that being quite contrived and we certainly shouldn't be trying to work around the criteria in such a way. If there is such a case where it isn't contrived, I won't be on every episode of every tv series. On you point of reviewers discussing the point, If those reviewers feel they can discuss the plot point without requiring an image, it can hardly be claimed to be an important identification or to be required for understanding. --82.7.44.178 (talk) 13:25, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

  See my comment above, also, most reviewers don't put images in there reviews, or at least those that get great reaction because they catch the eye of the reader and they don't want to spoil there readers, something we don't do. _Xeworlebi  14:08, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

  I think that then pretty clearly defines the images aren't required to aid understanding, if the reviewers can discuss the episode without requiring an image, then so can we. --82.7.44.178 (talk) 14:37, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

  By that logic we can go ahead and delete every and all images as most reviews go without an image to avoid spoiling there readers. There's clearly something going wrong here, cover art doesn't have to adhere to NFCC and television screenshots are being deleted just because a group doesn't believe they should be. There's nothing here that states that cover art is exempted from it (there was a discussion but nothing on the page reflecting that). In some cases these images do aid understanding, otherwise very and all images would be deleted on sight. _Xeworlebi  14:56, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

  There is language on WP:NFC: "Cover art: Cover art from various items, for identification only in the context of critical commentary of that item (not for identification without critical commentary)." And as I've tried to explain, the consensus agrees that official cover art carry implicit marketing and branding just like a logo does for a company or product, thus implicitly meeting NFCC#8 (I disagree with that broad statement but again, that's what consensus says). I think the spoiler route is a red herring, so I wouldn't worry about it. Mind you, I also think there is limited exception for using a screenshot to describe a complex scene that may not be specifically discussed in sources but necessary to appreciate the plot. I don't know of any immediate examples but in such caess, the lack of sourcing simply means the rationale needs to provide strong justification for NFCC#8. (This is where FAC comes into play as they have helped to either remove weaker images or strengthen those used for episode articles). --MASEM (t) 15:04, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

  You are misunderstanding or misrepresenting the discussion so far. This is nothing to do with spoilers. The reviewers can describe it and in your scenario describe it well enough that we'll know exactly which image they are talking about, yet somehow we can't? That makes no sense, if the reviewers can describe it well without an image, then so can we. (Whatever the reviewers motivation, which so far you've just presented as argument by assertion).
  We are talking generalities here, so no that doesn't lead to a conclusion that we should delete all TV show images, when it's been stated here multiple times that it is not the case e.g. my statement above "To be clear some images are still going to be usable, it's just not necessarily every episode article will have an image". So please consider the debate as whole not picking out individual points to construct strawmen.
  Also as above I don't think movie posters/album art etc. should be unchallengeable, I also stated "the only argument I can really see is are we too permissive elsewhere, not that we should be more permissive here". The real point here is that the justification for them is a sufficiently different argument that trying to conflate the two into one discussion is just muddying the water, realistically we can't have one big discussion fixing all ills without it becoming so confusing that no consensus can be determined. --82.7.44.178 (talk) 15:15, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

• Support Masem's proposal, and I suggest that the following wording is added: "There is no automatic requirement or entitlement for articles about films and TV episodes to have a screenshot. Any screenshot must actually depict some of the text's critical commentary in a necessary way, rather than simply identifying the film or episode in general." ╟─TreasuryTag►pikuach nefesh─╢ 13:20, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

  The wording you propose will need a bit of tweaking. An image can't "depict commentary", and it can't do it "in a necessary way". But in principle this goes in the right direction. At WP:MOSTV, I added the following, in a similar vein: "a screenshot may only be used if it meets the Non-free content criteria, i.e. typically if it is required to illustrate a crucial element of the episode that is the object of explicit, sourced analytical commentary and where that commentary is in need of visual support to be understood. There is no blanket allowance for an image per episode." . (BTW, I suppose the addition you suggest would be to the "acceptable uses" example list, right?) Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:10, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

  That was my intent - to add to the line already there. Wording improvements are more than welcome, I just want to make sure we're clearly laid it out. --MASEM (t) 19:55, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

As some have pointed out, much of this was discussed in Misplaced Pages talk:Non-free content/Archive 49#NFUR for album.2Fsingle covers and posters and then a community-wide discussion in the Misplaced Pages:Non-free content/Cover art RfC. It's possible that a screenshot of a title screen for a TV show may fall under that RfC, but that images from a specific episode may not. But I'm no expert on the matter.

I'd like to mention that in the closing proposal of that RfC, some work was started to update our policies, but I'm not certain it was finished. It might save a lot of time to review that section. - Hydroxonium (T•C•V) 19:05, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Again, from the discussion with Xeworlebi above, cover art carries implicit marketing and branding by the publisher - in lieu of any other artwork deemed so, it is the de facto "official" image from the publisher. The closest thing to this would be title cards from television programs which have gone the way of the dodo in modern times, and screenshots picked by editors can not be considered official. Thus, they would not fall under that RFC. --MASEM (t) 19:55, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Currency notes

An editor has recently been going around removing images of currency notes from currency pages with the laconic justification of WP:OVERUSE. This seems a severe stretch of the policy as stated here: eg. in the specific case of Indonesian rupiah, there are no individual pages for the various notes, which means that the images cannot be used anywhere else either. As the policy says, "Multiple items are not used if one will suffice", but obviously an image of one note is not at all sufficient for illustrating a series of notes. Opinions? Jpatokal (talk) 12:05, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

• Not a stretch of policy at all. It is unnecessary to show every unit of a currency system in order for a reader of an encyclopedia article to gain an understanding of a currency system. We not a guide, and inclusion of every non-free graphic element of a set is against policy, guideline, and mission of the project. Not having individual pages for each unit of currency isn't a reason to overload an article with non-free images. Further, please don't think that creating individual articles for each unit of the currency is a panacea either. If there's sufficient secondary sourcing to support the independent notability of a particular unit of a currency system, then yes. But, blanket creation of individual articles will almost certainly result in their being turned into redirects to the main article, and the pictures still not being extant. --Hammersoft (talk) 13:18, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
  • Breathtaking.

Hammersoft, you and Beta know full well the accepted conventions regarding currency pages, silently higlighted here often enough in connection with the list of pages showing the highest NFC use -- namely that showing what the present bills look like (and very often also the most significant historical sets of bills) is considered plainly to pass NFCC #8 for a "Banknotes of country X" article, by showing what the very subjects of the article themselves look like. Are you seriously attempting to maintain that knowing what the bills actually look like isn't a pretty damn significant piece of information in the context of an article specifically devoted to the bills themselves? That has been the accepted view as long as I have been on Misplaced Pages, and is enshrined across pretty much every single country's banknotes article I can think of. Even if you've suddenly decided you do not agree with that status quo any more, the way forward would be to hold a formal RFC and notify WikiProject Numismatics. You do NOT go around trying to force your way by edit-warring. I hope you can see just how poor your and Beta's behaviour have been in this instance.

As to the policies you quote: WP:NOTGUIDE is, as I understand it, primarily guidance against adding restaurant reviews, and/or personal subjective guidance on things to do and places to see. It is not an injunction against trying to make our articles into comprehensive and encyclopedic treatments of their subjects. Hammersoft's reference to it here makes as little sense as, say, questioning whether Misplaced Pages needs any articles on the 13th century (but perhaps H would also think it unnecessary to cover every century to gain an understanding of history?). Next, NFCC #3a. Perhaps Hammersoft would also consider it unnecessary to show what a US$20 looks like -- after all, one can always spend tens? The point is that showing what the bills look like is a central thing for an article on the bills of that country to present -- and that must be true for Indonesia just as much as for the U.S.A. The understanding added, furthermore, is not whether there is sigificant commentary on what they look like, the understanding added is what they look like. This is also where the appeal to WP:NFTABLE falls down. That guideline notes iteself that it admits of exceptions, and (cf WP:IUP) its primary purpose is to protect examples where the commentary is what needs to be supported. But in this kind of case, where to show the bill is valuable in itself, such a reasoning does not apply -- which is why nobody has ever made a fuss about such usages before. Finally, m:mission: Hammersoft is overcooking it again, as usual. Nothing on that page is going to make the free content there any less distributable; nobody, anywhere in the world, is going to find it any harder to use the images on that page just as we have. Instead, remember what m:mission is for -- because we want to help everyone to share in the knowledge of the world. Preventing us from sharing some of that knowledge for no good reason is not a step in the right direction. Jheald (talk) 17:43, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Same arguments that came up with the character images in List of... style pages. Didn't work then, doesn't work now. Showing a few examples is all that is needed, you do not need to show every version. ΔT 17:50, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Tbf, he has in the past requested input from places like WP:Numismatics, with little or no input. But then again, who in their right mind sticks around after they read his opening positions? Take a look at the poor guy who was after 3 attempts at divining some non-transplanted non-shortcutted non-cookie cutter justifications from Delta over a similar case where the same thing's happening over military ranks (exact same 3c + NOTGUIDE arguments etc), was then finally directed to read 50 talk page archive links, and Hammersoft followed up behind with a suggestion that if the guy couldn't be bothered to 'educate himself', he had no business sticking his oar in. This from a guy who very recently claimed he always followed CIVIL completely. You may expect he only got such rough treatment because he was an IP and thus not worthy of being treated as an equal, but I doubt you're going to fare any better here on the whole 'links to prior consensus' angle either. He's got an essay though. About discographies and episode lists. That's enough surely? I see Delta's already weighed in to confirm the fact that no, this is not an issue where they feel the need to seek any consensus via something that would gain wide community input like an Rfc, to examine claims like 'banknotes and character lists, they're all the same' for their grounding in encyclopoedic reality, rather than NFCC 'you don't need it' POV. MickMacNee (talk) 18:14, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

And to follow from Delta's comment, just like with character lists, if there is a pre-made single image of the currency (not user-montage created), this would be a single NFC image and could be used to head up the list instead of images for every single denomination of bill and coin. --MASEM (t) 18:32, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

And if there isn't?

I'm sorry but we're supposed to be an encyclopedic resource for the world here. We're not talking about some pop-culture trivia here. Knowing what a country's current banknotes look like -- all of them -- is pretty damn significant if we're trying to provide comprehensive and encyclopedic coverage of that country.

To delete core information like this -- without consensus, without process, without an RfC, without any useful purpose whatsoever being served by such a deletion, just for the sake of it -- makes no sense. It would be a sign of having utterly lost the plot. Jheald (talk) 19:07, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

So show 1-5 examples and the reader gets a good understanding. You could show me 2 US bills and with a little explaining I could get a good understanding of the topic, I don't need to see every one ever made in order to understand them. Yes it makes the article pretty, it doesn't really help too much with the understanding. ΔT 19:11, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

With respect, I don't agree. The thing for the NFCC #8 & #3a analysis of these images is what they add in terms of knowledge/understanding/capability for the reader. It seems to me that the key thing added by actually showing the images is the ability for the reader to much more readily and instinctively recognise the bills -- and that is not negligible. Yes, we can say that they are a particular shade of blue; but it will imprint much more securely on the reader's memory if we show the shade of blue; similarly, we can say that a bill has an image of Jefferson on it, but the reader will much more instictively recognise the bill if we show them how Jefferson is drawn on it, and that image is taken into their visual memory. I see that as something quite valuable and significant to people that our article can convey, that would make it more comprehensive and encyclopedically complete.

Against that, I don't really see the value in not including these images. For example, New Zealand explicitly permits images of its bills to be used for educational purposes, so that would clearly put us, our downstream commercial reusers, and indeed anyone in the world reusing that page in the clear. Other countries may not licence their banknotes so explicitly, but it seems to me unimaginable, per the Berne Convention, that a reuser of all or part of our wiki page as a guide to the currency would come to grief. So there really isn't any threat regarding reusability of our content.

There is a strong case, of course, for rejecting education-only or nonmodifiable-only content when free alternatives are or might be available. But when free alternatives definitely are not available, this starts to look like "destroying the village in order to save it". Jheald (talk) 21:30, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

I don't think Delta or Hammer is proposing that "no" images be used to illustrate monetary articles. There is clear agreement that showing one image of a bill as a representative of the others that will likely appear similar (shape, size, color, and layout) is certainly within NFCC, assuming that there is nothing else to say about the specific piece of currency otherwise. Or if a single image of multiple bills existed from an official source, that's even better and within NFCC. What it comes down to is that NFCC strongly discourages from the use of a non-free image to illustrate every element of a list or table. If the elements of the lists are notable themselves, the element can "host" the image where it can be discussed more. If the elements of the list or table aren't or barely qualify to be notable, then an image-per-element is purely decorative, no matter how educational or useful it may be. This doesn't prelude limited images as to lead off the list or table, or, if there is an image that readily meets NFCC#8 for one of the bills in that the bill's illustration is discussed in secondary sources. --MASEM (t) 21:41, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

If an image is "educational" and "useful", then it's hardly "purely decorative", is it? If it is "educational" and "useful" then that suggests it is indeed adding something significant to reader knowledge and understanding -- exactly as it needs to pass NFCC #8 (which I believe the currency images do).

A fundamental principle of WP, reflected in WP:POLICY, and indeed in WP:IAR is that policy must exist for a purpose. It is not enough to say that "the WP:NFC guideline discourages... ". It must also be clear why such a thing must be discouraged, and whether that reasoning does in fact apply in this case. I don't think you have addressed that. In this case there is a very real practical usefulness served to readers by our including such images; and the standard reasons to be cautious of such images -- that they might lead to legal problems for someone, or limit redistibutivity of our page, or crowd out a free image -- simply do not apply. Those two issues cannot be swept under the carpet. Jheald (talk) 22:06, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

NFC is more than policy. Like BLP, it is one of a limited set of rules required to us by the Foundation. Resolution:Licensing_policy states "Such EDPs must be minimal." This is non-negotiable. That means when there is a way to convey the same information by reducing the number of non-free images and used appropriate text alongside free and non-free content, we are required to use that. Now, there's still a line for discussion and consensus here and that is how much of an educational equivalent there is between having a non-free image of every denomination compared to having one image and using text to describe out the rest. It is just that in conjunction with essays like WP:OVERUSE and the previous determination on images in discographies and episodes lists, an image-per-entry rarely is needed to still convey the same information that the list already given, and thus we have an appropriate free-content (or freer-content) replacement.

Let's put it this hypothetically way for currency of a country where no denomination is notable in-of-itself. You never have been to this country, never likely will, but you are doing research on its currency which you have never seen and likely will never see in your lifetime - eg this is the case for the average reader of Misplaced Pages. How important is it that you see every piece of currency they have in circulation, compared against having one example to work from and understanding that the currency is otherwise similar expect for the illustration and the amount given?

Remember: we can always link to the country's mint or similar institution where the images can easily be found for those that really need it. But from a standpoint of the average reader and the education they are seeking on denominations, a single picture can be easily extrapolated to see the rest. --MASEM (t) 22:20, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

I think your test of "what does the average user need" is wrong. My view is that articles should do as much as they can to satisfy the needs of every user -- including those with specialist needs, though in general presenting the most accessible and/or likely to be most widely useful information first. I think it is inappropriate to dismiss the value of visual recognition so readily. And even for the person at the extreme of being the most casually interested, it seems to me that it is still conveying something qualitatively much more to them if one shows how the colours vary across the notes (or not in the case of US notes), and how the designs are similar but different; much more than would be communicated just by bald text.

Against that we should weigh what the value is in not showing the image. I don't think we can just hide behind a line in the EDP -- particularly one so open to interpretation. We've had this discussion before. Certainly it's right that our image policy should err to the cautious and the conservative. But the other point about the word "minimal" is that it seems, at least to me, clearly chosen to resonate with U.S. fair use law, where "minimal" use (i.e. no more than needed to achieve the purpose being claimed) is a standard paraphrase for one of the 4 fair use tests. WP:OVERUSE also seems to me rather a poor basis on which to proceed. That essay represents Durin's personal opinion of policy, not policy itself; and it should perhaps be remembered that Durin became so disillusioned by the Foundation's refusal to lift even a finger to support what he'd written that ultimately he left the project.

The abiding instruction we have when interpreting policy -- even the EDP -- is to turn our brains on, and think about what it is supposed to be for, and what it has been instituted to achieve, not to turn our brains off and simply follow it blindly. The NFC policy is hugely important, because what it protects is hugely important: namely, legal security; redistributability; creation and securing of truly free images. But when the currency images threaten none of those three things one has to ask, what is to be served by excluding them? The reason that we value those three priorities so highly is so that we can provide and go on providing as good a resource for the world as we possibly can. So let's not walk away from providing as good a resource as we could when none of those three considerations are in any way threatened. Jheald (talk) 23:44, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

To infer the Foundation's intent on that statement in the Resolution, the statement after the previous to describe what they consider to be "minimal use" is clearly stricter than what US Fair Use law would allow (which is rather lenient). And to me, it is pretty clear how that's written that we should be treating every non-free media use as exceptions to the free content mission, and not necessarily the status quo for certain types of articles or images (hence why I'd love to see our allowance on cover art to be reduced). Now, I don't think anything is asking for an impossible line where no images of currency can be used. One could be completely asshole-ish and say "unless the art on the currency is specifically discussed in secondary sources, there is zero need to show any currency on a page about currency". Clearly this is very far from consensus, because as you say a visual image does help, so a selected shot or two or more of the currency is completely in line. But the point is that we need to respect the Foundation's wishes of minimal use and here's a case where it can be done: for most countries, if we put all of the current issue bank notes images next to each other, the only primary change is going to be text, the picture, and possibly the primary color used. But the format and layout the bill remains the same - the numbers and pictures will all be in the same place with the same fundamental markings. Once you show one, the rest are interpolated from that. And remember, as I've hinted before, I would not be surprised that if one spent time looking that one would be able to find a single collective image showing each of the major currencies for a country from an official source. --MASEM (t) 00:03, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

I don't think the Foundation's position is nearly so apparent. There are ways certainly in which we are stricter than U.S. fair use law -- our concern for our verbatim bulk reusers for one, our concern not to crowd out truly free images for another -- and it's certainly clear that this last was particularly prevalent in the Foundation's collective minds at the time. But as to the overall level of use of NFC, I'm not convinced. The clear statement we had from the Foundation's representative Kat Walsh was that it was adopting the resolution because en-wiki's position was considered best-of-breed, and it wished to spread that to other wikis; and that there was no intention behind the resolution to reduce existing levels of use on en-wiki (this indeed at a time when we included full per-item images in discographies, episode lists, character lists, etc). Given that clear statement at the time, I have to say I find later attempts to rewrite history and claim that the Foundation was telling us to bear down on our fair-use content use less than convincing. Jheald (talk) 12:17, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

@Jheald: I recommend you make a report regarding my "poor" behavior to WP:AN/I, or even WP:AIV since I fully intend to continue acting as I have been. As to your understanding of WP:NOTGUIDE, I am specifically referring to "Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedic reference, not an instruction manual, guidebook, or textbook", "there is an important distinction between what can be done, and what should be done", and "information cannot be included solely for being true or useful". It simply isn't necessary to display every unit of currency in a currency system article. You don't have to have a non-free image of every element to understand the system. If you show me a picture of a US$10 bill, and had a list of the other denominations in circulation, you would have plenty enough graphical elements to understand what the bills in the system look like. By your argument, it would be acceptable to include sound clips of every track on an album. Afterall, there's no possible way a person can understand what each song sounds like without them, right? We also need to include per character images on list of characters in fictional works because we can't possibly visually identify the characters without that visual reference. We also need to include book covers from every book in a series for the same reason. If a given bill has notoriety for its appearance as reported by secondary sources, fine. But, including it just to include it is beyond the scope of this project. As to nobody having made a fuss before, so what? Frankly, I don't care. I haven't paid attention to it before now. Simply because i haven't spoken much on the issue before doesn't mean I am now wikilegally bereft of the privilege of raising the issue now. --Hammersoft (talk) 19:10, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

@MickMacNee: I understand your opinion with regards to me. Welcome to another platform to voice it. Please by all means feel free to continue. --Hammersoft (talk) 19:10, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

So it appears that there is nothing like a consensus in favor of User:Δ's Draconian approach, and quite possibly a consensus against it. Jheald, could I ask you for some pointers to the previous discussions you mentioned? Jpatokal (talk) 21:41, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

To start with, one might begin with WP:NFCI Acceptable uses: #3: Stamps and currency - for identification of the stamp or currency (not its subject).

The acceptability of "identification" as a rationale means that it is considered to be a good enough reason to show the images simply to show what the notes look like (so long as the notes are the subject of the article). It is just about the weakest condition we put on a category of images for use -- a sign that copyright concerns in that context are unlikely to be a problem (essentially because it is going to have no effect on the primary real-world use of the image).

As for past discussions, there may or may not have been consideration in detail. You could try putting "currency" or "banknote" in the archive search box above.

I haven't looked through the lot, but I did find a couple of hits quite interesting, in an oblique kind of way:

• In February 2009, Masem suggested that there was no need to include a banknote image on famous person X's page, because one could just link to the page on the currency itself, which should have an image. He was surprised that the UK banknotes page did not have an image of the old Isaac Newton £1 note. .
• In September 2009, Masem noted that there seemed to be a prevailing "general consensus" to depict every coin and note ever, though he wasn't sure this was justifiable. Black Kite had concerns about an article that had 85 images; but accepted articles should have some images, the alarm bells only really going off when more than a dozen. (Of course these were just personal views from two editors).
• In August 2009, I drew attention that many of the articles using most images were currency articles. No particular need was felt to do anything at the time, though Hammersoft didn't care whether the articles were useful or not.
• In January 2011, I noted currency articles as an example of articles that regularly contained a lot of non-free images without anybody seeing it as a problem - and nobody jumped on me for saying such a thing

So, bearing in mind that policy and guidelines are supposed to track practice, not change it unless there is clear consensus, I think we can say that the longstanding stance of the NFC watching community up until now has been to be both aware of and also pretty relaxed about the pattern of use of currency images. Until last week I don't think there would have been much objection to the proposal on the WT:Numismatics page to allow "ONE obverse image and ONE reverse image PER currently circulating denomination". Jheald (talk) 22:59, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Consensus can change. At one point, discographies did have cover art per item; episode lists has screenshots per item. That has changed as we identify ways to improve the free content mission of the encyclopedia. See even the above section to clarify the use of episode screenshots in infoboxes, a practice that was once common but has fallen in the wayside. The only reason that I would suspect this has attracted attention now is that IIRC Delta and/or Hammer are running through lists of pages sorted by the number of NFC they use to try to determine if those are justified, and such Numismatics lists would clearly be on the top side of that list. --MASEM (t) 23:07, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Those lists have existed since August 2009. Consensus can change, for sure; but the burden lies on those claiming a change to produce evidence. In this case I rather doubt it. +

As for the episode screenshots, I'm not aware most wikipedians were ever offered the choice. Just a relentless campaign of bullying and bludgeoning by self-appointed single-issue extremists waged against people who in contrast hadn't been through the circuit enough times to effectively make their case and stand their ground. Jheald (talk) 23:58, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure I quite understand the reason for removal. Currency images are widely depicted in catalogues and books, with the exception of a small number of countries where you might be required to show such images with 'SPECIMEN' or similar, there has never been any objection to this. The images themselves have considerable value in showing artwork style/themes/national heroes/points of political pride, and while it's nice to have 100% ideologically pure pages with 100% 'free' images, Misplaced Pages does not actually aim to do this given the impossibility of replacing so many important images, so the distinction between an article with 'some' non-free currency images and 'many' non-free currency images is purely arbitrary and serves no legal or encylopedic purpose given that the resulting page will remain 'non-free' after being stripped of many images. The argument that you can just depict 'some' and let people imagine the rest is all very well, but it applies to every other 'non-free' usage too, why stop there? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.162.117.177 (talk • contribs) 23:52, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Apparently what we're supposed to be operating under is

• If we didn't raise objection X unspecified time period ago, that therefore we can't raise objection now.
• The longer a problem exists unsolved, the more acceptable it is. I guess that's true. Old crap smells better than new crap :)

Still, none of the reasons for retaining the mass overuse of numismatics images have addressed the core concerns regarding WP:NFCC. I find that telling. --Hammersoft (talk) 00:30, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

• This has very little to do with the number of NFC per article and has everything to do with WP:NFCI which rule #3 under "Acceptable uses" states that we allow currency "for identification of the stamp or currency (not its subject)." Short version: it's allowed. If others wish to change consensus, it is incumbent upon them to demonstrate that consensus has changed. Of the two arguments above mentioned by HS, the first is a red herring as you can bring up a point of contention at any time. The second erroneously makes the conclusion that an error has been made in the first place and then draws a conclusion based on that faulty analysis. They should both be discounted. — BQZip01 —  04:56, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
  • "For identification" implies there is commentary about the currency from a secondary source - that is, the item in question is notable itself. If the currency is only being displayed in a list form because the individual denominations are not notable, then NFCI #3 does not apply (as NFCI#1 does not apply to discographies or similar lists). -MASEM (t) 05:12, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
    • Huh? With all due respect, you are pulling that out of your ass: not only does NFCI not imply anything of the sort, but it doesn't even mention the words "secondary source" or "notable"! Jpatokal (talk) 10:25, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
      • This is based on the discussions that have happened over time for cover art images and logos. The language follows from the criteria put forth in NFCI#1, though if you follow a few back threads here, we have talked about adding more explicit language of what is expected for "for identification". --MASEM (t) 12:33, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
        • And yet, it hasn't been added. Treating opinion as if it is policy isn't helpful to discussion. If you want to demonstrate consensus and change it, you have my support, but, until such time as it is changed, we need to go by what has been agreed upon, not "what we talked about in a few discussions". — BQZip01 —  22:45, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Jpatokal, the problem is a) fair use of an image is still the use of a non free image, and the use of a copyrighted image (i.e., a copyvio, albeit allowed by law in this case), b) The Foundation has stated that even though fair use is allowed by law, that the use should be minimal, since these images are NOT free, and the Foundation tries to be a 💕. That is why there is something like overuse, and that should be minimized. Thé solution to overuse when detected is to remove all images, and make a selection of what to re-include. Not leaving them there standing while they violate Wikimedia rules and discuss which to remove. --Dirk Beetstra 11:40, 10 May 2011 (UTC)(some typos and clarifications --Dirk Beetstra 11:42, 10 May 2011 (UTC))

RfC: Did recent currency image deletions go beyond the proper aims and objectives of the NFC image policy?

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This is an RfC to discuss whether recent image removals were appropriate at New Zealand dollar (diff) and Banknotes of the Indonesian rupiah (diff), as discussed immediately above, and in principle many further currency articles. Similar comprehensive treatments of current banknotes have been in place since before the first days of NFC policy without any apparent particular concern; it is only within about the last ten days that they have become a target for image removal. This RfC is convened in the belief that the proper way for the community to reconsider whether such content is appropriate or not is through discussion, rather than by a sustained editing push by a small number of committed editors to establish a fait accompli.

I have included "proper aims and objectives of the NFC image policy" because it seems to me that there are different views of what NFC policy is for, and that these should also be reviewed. On the one hand there seems to be a view amongst some that NFC is a charter to let them bulldoze away as much content as they can get away with at any particular moment. Proponents of this view emphasise the word "minimal" and appear to see all and any NFC content as fundamentally conflicting with our m:mission; they would like to see much less NFC of any kind on the project. On the other hand, a contending view holds that appropriate use of NFC actually supports our m:mission by making Misplaced Pages a more comprehensive, more useful resource, to which readers will be more likely to contribute the new content that our mission places us here to develop. On this second view, NFC policy is a carefully constructed balance to allow content we can legally use that adds value to our readers, while drawing a carefully conservative line to exclude content that really might materially damage the provision or reusability of our content, i.e. excluding anything for which it is not absolutely clear we're on the right side of fair use law; anything which might materially damage the redistributivity of our content (in practice the ability of big automated sites in the U.S. to harvest and re-use our content verbatim); and finally, anything which might "crowd out" somebody coming forward with a more free image. On this second view, NFC policy was carefully crafted to reflect these key concerns, so there is no benefit in a crusade against non-free content beyond that. Both sides claim that the Foundation licensing resolution reflects their point of view.

Viewpoint 1: No purpose is served by removing content we can legally use under educational-material-only or nonmodified-use-only licensing, unless free alternatives are or might be available

Support (Viewpoint 1)

1. (This was the situation with the New Zealand images, made available under this license). Our use on Misplaced Pages was legally compliant with that license; so would be reuse of our page by any downstream re-distributor. So there is no legal threat to us here, and no threat to the spread of our content. It is reasonable to object to, say, an image of a celebrity issued under such terms (and we do), because use here would tend to "crowd out" the likelihood of a random Wikipedian taking an alternative image that was completely strings-free. But when, as here, there is no likelihood of a completely free image, and we and others can use the image we're offered perfectly legally, what are we supposed to be achieving by not using the image? This is simply throwing the baby out with the bathwater, destroying the village in order to save it. Jheald (talk) 12:04, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Oppose (Viewpoint 1)

1. Note that the foundation has stated that while fair use allows the use of (copyrighted) non-free images, the use of that should still be minimized, as the use of non-free image is, obviously, not helping in building a free encyclopedia. That goes for all non-free images. Removing that content, and maybe making a (small) selection for re-inclusion, therefore helps in the purpose of building an encyclopedia where the use of non-free images is minimised. --Dirk Beetstra 12:08, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

   See also Misplaced Pages:Non-free content criteria, a 'Misplaced Pages policy with legal considerations'. --Dirk Beetstra 13:01, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

2. Our mission as a free-content encyclopedia makes it necessary to sometimes (imnsho always) emphasize "free" over "encyclopedia". See WP:VEGAN. —Кузьма 12:55, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
3. Oppose What we can "legally" use is and never has been the point. If the criteria was what is allowed under fair use law, there would be zero objection to the use of as many currency images as anyone would wish to have. An educational resource such as this has very easily defendable grounds with respect to fair use law. --Hammersoft (talk) 13:07, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

   Note that Viewpoint 1 isn't about fair use law. We wouldn't be using the images under fair use law, we would be using them under licence from the New Zealand government. The question is whether there is any point in not using them on the grounds that the licence isn't as free as it could be, if there is no prospect of a free alternative. What would that denial be serving? Jheald (talk) 13:25, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

   the Foundation only recognizes two classes of licenses: one that is equivalent to the CC-BY (free content), and if not, it's nonfree, regardless of how much of "can be allowed for educational purposes" the license evokes. If it can't be redistributed without strings attached, it's non-free and treated within US Fair Use law. --MASEM (t) 13:33, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

4. Oppose. The NFCC are deliberately stricter than law. The policy is not here to push the limit of what we can legally use, it is here to minimise the non-free content we use. Effectively, we have a situation whereby content is either free, or non-free; attempts to create some kind of third "in the middle" have been shot down in the past, and will serve only to muddy the waters. J Milburn (talk) 13:14, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
5. Oppose. There's great benefit in not restricting ourselves to be a free as in beer encyclopedia.--Damiens.rf 14:43, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
6. Oppose. This is not a comment on the specific deletion case that triggered this RfC, but as a general statement of policy, this wording would essentially mean getting rid of NFCC#8 (contextualy significance) and #3 (minimality) completely. This runs directly counter to foundation policy. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:52, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
7. I understand your point, but the phrasing is all wrong. — BQZip01 —  23:21, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Comment (Viewpoint 1)

• A key point is: do we make ourselves any less free by including non-free content? According to the Foundation, the answer is not. Misplaced Pages is to be considered an "aggregated work" under the GFDL -- that is, the presence of additional non-free content in no way takes away from the freedom to separate and re-use the free content. And in this case, by the nature of the NZ license, there is explicitly no problem with using the whole page, images and all. Jheald (talk) 12:26, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

  That is a good question, though I believe that m:Mission shows that the Foundation does want minimal use of non-free content. Whether we disagree that the fair-use of non-free content does make the whole of the encyclopedia less free is not really the point. If the Foundation would not care about the use of non-free media (as long as it has a fair-use rationale), then we could use it as much and wherever we want. Fact is, we already try to minimize the use of such images, question is whether showing all images on a list-like article, or just a few representative ones, does make the article less valuable. I don't believe so. --Dirk Beetstra 12:34, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

  As long as we allow one non-free use , we've "broken" the mission (WP:VEGAN). But, as DB mentions, the goal is still to minimize non-free use to limited exceptions. Given the groupthink nature of WP, when we make exceptions for certain classes of articles to have a large number of NFC media pieces, other people will complain or take it as explicit allowance for their favorite class of articles to also have a large number of images, and this propagates into an expansion of NFC use. (this had to happen with those that wanted all historical logos of a TV station without additional comment, and art articles that summarize modern periods or movements, and of course discograhpies and episode lists from before). It is a balance between how much nonfree use we do allow and achieving an educational goal, and there have been solutions offered that should how 1-2 images can be used to replace numerous ones while still doing the intended job of showing what the currency for a country looks like, so clearly showing every possible currency does not consider that balance. --MASEM (t) 12:41, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

• Not worth debating - they're either free or non-free - anything else is an unecessary distraction from the real issue of how the justifiable use of non-free imagery is being prevented. MickMacNee (talk) 13:57, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

  So your goal is not to build a 💕, contrary to the rules of the Foundation? --Dirk Beetstra 15:03, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

  My goal is ensure the Foundation's allowance of justifiable fair use within the EDP is respected. And in that regime, an image is free or non-free, and thus it can either be uploaded, or has to be justified. That's a basic fact. And you're talking to someone who has taken and uploaded over 2,000 images on Commons for over 3 years now, and uploaded countless more from Flickr etc. I don't even assert my attribution rights on my own work, all of my creations are {PD-User}. So please, you can have this one baseless attack on me and what you think my goals are, but no more. MickMacNee (talk) 19:57, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Viewpoint 2: That showing actual images of the banknotes contributes sufficiently to reader education in an article specifically on the banknotes of that country, that at least the use of "one obverse image and one reverse image per currently circulating denomination" should be considered to meet the requirements acceptably of NFCC#8 and NFCC#3a

Support (Viewpoint 2)

1. Even if (unlike New Zealand) there is not an explicit license regulating use of the images, it is virtually unimaginable that action would be taken against an honest article discussing the banknotes of a country, and it would certainly get nowhere under U.S. fair use law. That's why our existing WP:NFCI guideline takes a comparatively lenient stance on banknote images, allowing their use simply for the purpose of identification of the banknote, without requiring any commentary on the note or the image. Ultimately, the question of whether under NFCC#8 and NFCC#3a it is appropriate for us to show a complete set of the current banknotes is properly one for the community to decide, hence my putting it up for RfC here. For myself, I believe that it is appropriate. In my view, as expressed above, knowing what a country's current banknotes look like -- all of them -- is pretty fundamental if we're trying to provide comprehensive and encyclopedic coverage of that country. As to those who say we can just show one and describe the rest, I don't agree. Actually showing the bills gives the ability for the reader to much more readily and instinctively recognise the bills, using their visual memory, something I think is not negligible. It allows a reader, for instance, to readily determine whether a bill they may have is still current. It lets the reader see what the images are on the bills, and how they vary. The currency is a very significant part of the material culture of any country, and I really think we're falling down if -- just to please ourselves -- we don't show it. Given how limited the copyright taking is, given that so many bills are in circulation and we are not impinging at all on the primary purpose for which the image was created, I really don't see any good purpose served by our not showing what each country's particular currency looks like. Jheald (talk) 12:04, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
2. Obviously. And if we are being serious about being an educational resource, it should include historical issues too (in the exact same way it's completely laughable that people argue that cleansing articles of all outdated logos is doing anything other than destroying a reader's ability to understand the topic). The people arguing that just using some is OK are displaying that awesome quality of knowing that all currencies of the world are as bland as the US currency, and as such, you don't need any mental abilities to imagine the '10' replaced by the '20', or Jackson replaced by whoever. And the encyclopoedic purpose of each image is after all, identification, not accompaniament of flowery text about stylistic influences etc. It's a better man than me that can tell someone else how good their imagination is, and whether or not their ability to an identify an image is impaired by not having the exact image present. As ever, the ideas that certain people have about how readers probably use these articles, are completely upside down, and more often than not argued from the pristine tower of foreknowledge of already knowing the images likenesses, or worse, from basic ideological opposition and unwillingess to accept the basic tenets of the Mission and the reason it does allow non-free images. This whole issue has frankly suffered for far too long from the untenable argument that 'minimal use' is measured in absolute numbers of images - it's completely wrong. An article with 1 image is already unfree. It isn't any less free with 3, 10 or even 100 more. What matters is what they are being used for. I welcome the day when people taking this line on minimal use clue themselves in, and realise just why nobody who can credibly claim to be an expert in fair use (i.e., not someone who proudly claims to have conducted thousands of removals on Misplaced Pages without being blocked), and not least the Foundation in whose name this is often argued, has ever backed their illogical assertions that, at least in the field of identification, '1 or 2 is OK', '3 to 5 is debatable', 'over 5 absolutely not'. Currencies is a perfect example of the wrongness of this approach to NFCC and minimal use. I've never heard something so ridiculous as the claim that the arguments and positions taken in the discography ruling can be transplanted unchanged into the field of currency, as if it's not even in doubt. On the behavioural issue too, people need to completely stop citing things like BURDEN, it's completely irrelevant. NFCC is often compared to BLP to justify this utter disruption. Well, I cannot imagine a single instance where, if just one editor gave an arguable case that a certain piece of text might just be constured as a violation and needs removing until a case can be made, he would not be supported in sufficient numbers & clue to not have to revert the number of times people are doing in this area, when they arrive with their personal POV as to what is and is not acceptable. Some of the 'prior discussion' links provided to support the idea there's consensus for these reverts have been nothing short of completely tendentious. There is a reason why the number of editors who will ensure that removal in BLP areas far outstrips the manpower available when it's an NFCC issue, and it's most certainly not because there are more people here who are clueless about image policy than about BLP policy - it's that prevailing atmosphere of utter condescension of other experienced editors by a tiny tiny group that pervades this area and its consensus building venues like an all encompassing smog. In that environment it's pretty damn easy to make gradual unconsensual tweaks to guidelines and to employ the model of BRRRRRRD on a massive scale. MickMacNee (talk) 13:42, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
3. I can support this. "Minimality" is not an absolute threshold. What it means is: we use as much as it takes (but not more). Illustrating the designs in a set of banknotes is a significant part of an article about a currency. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:54, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
4. For the reader to understand an article about the currency, and for them to be able to visually identify the currency when they encounter it (an important purpose of articles about currencies), images of all denominations of the currency are required. That seems rather self-evident to me, actually.  Sandstein  18:13, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

   Usefulness is not a factor we consider on WP. We are also not a travel guide. We do not - nor can be - the one-shop stop for all information, and we should wisely be using external resources that are much better suited to this purpose. --MASEM (t) 20:24, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

   Let me get this straight. You are saying we should provide links to external sources that are violating copyright/fair use laws? — BQZip01 —  23:20, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

   Absolutely not, but I never said anything about copyvio sites. There are sites out there - whether in official capacity as the government body printing the money, or as an educational site bound only by fair use - that likely publish all these images and aren't bound by a free content mission. As long as these are official or otherwise reliable sites that follow WP:EL, we have every ability to shuffle off full details on a subject to these places, including all the images we could not include. --MASEM (t) 23:52, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

5. Comprehensively illustrating the appearance of a currency is an encyclopedic purpose in its own right, and needs no apology or excuse. "Minimal use" is not intended to erode comprehensive coverage. Thparkth (talk) 18:31, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

   It's the minimal use requirement that can't be eroded (see point #3 here). Do you have a link to a supporting document indicating we should erode minimal use in favor of comprehensive coverage? --Hammersoft (talk) 18:39, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

   I suppose that we could also ask you if you have a link defining "minimal use"? "maximum use"? The foundation intentionally left that vague so we could define it ourselves. — BQZip01 —  23:18, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

6. Makes the most sense. — BQZip01 —  23:18, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

   They left it vague, yes, but they also left a requirement: when there is opportunity to replace non-free with free equivalents, we must do so. Hence why we don't allow non-free images of living persons for their sole representation because its nearly always possible to get a free image of that person. Here, we have offered a solution where some non-free is kept to provide an example, the rest replaced by free text that extrapolates from that example. That's a free replacement for many non-free uses, and we're bound by the Foundation to take it, on the presumption that consensus agrees this is serving the same equivalent purpose. --MASEM (t) 23:55, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Oppose (Viewpoint 2)

1. That is also achieved when only displaying 1-3 images - one does not need to show all. The use of non-free images should be minimised (and note, that no-one has said that we should remove all of them, that only is done to aid the process of selecting the ones that need to stay!). --Dirk Beetstra 12:11, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

   See also Misplaced Pages:Non-free content criteria, a 'Misplaced Pages policy with legal considerations'. --Dirk Beetstra 13:01, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

2. The statement goes against the spirit of the "minimal use" clause of NFCC. We need to be more selective. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 12:48, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

   A single image is too much? — BQZip01 —  22:49, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

3. Oppose as this would permit the mass overuse of non-free images on any numismatics articles. Case point; Euro coins which recently had more than a hundred non-free images, and in actuality had far more due to copyright violations being used from Commons (which are now being deleted). This is several times more non-free images than the second highest article History of painting which has 42. It's wholly unnecessary to display every single image of every single currency denomination in a currency system in order for a person to have an understanding of that currency system. --Hammersoft (talk) 13:10, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

   You use the phrase "mass overuse" way too much as if your view is somehow a proven fact. It isn't. 42 images may indeed be an ideal number for a certain article. Maybe it is 100. That is what this RFC is trying to decide. — BQZip01 —  23:13, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

4. Oppose Making the case for one allowance for illustrating every element of a list with mostly non-free images will lead to the slippery slope of other types of lists wanting the same allowance for the same purpose. It is possible to still illustrate such currency lists with a few non-frees and appropriate text, alongside appropriate references and external linkage, without losing any educational value. --MASEM (t) 16:17, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

   I just don't see the slippery slope here and you are drawing conclusions based upon fact not in evidence. Your logic is that "if we set up something like this, everyone will also want it." In fact, we are simply specifying a max. We are saying there is a value added to having the images. The "maximum number" allowed should be clearly defined. — BQZip01 —  23:16, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

   It's been long established why it is impossible to identify what the maximum number of non-free images per page may be, because it varied by article type, sourcing, and a number of other factors. Some articles can support 20 non-frees easily, some cannot support a single free image. The desire of a one-size-fits-all NFC maximum number is understood, but it just cannot happen. If you set it for one type to a "high" number, even 1 or 2, then everyone will want 1 or 2 NFC images on articles that didn't need any. --MASEM (t) 23:48, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Comment (Viewpoint 2)

Viewpoint 3: Use only enough non-free images to provide a representative sample

Support (Viewpoint 3)

1. Support: To be encyclopedic, a representative sample is all that is required. We don't use sounds samples from every song on an album, for example, to give readers an understanding of the album. Currency systems generally have similar styling across its denominations. A discussion of that style can occur, along with discussion of security features, and history of the currency system without having to display every single image in the set. We are not a catalog. Foundation:Resolution:Licensing policy implores us that non-free content must be kept to a minimum. As the Foundation says, "This policy may not be circumvented, eroded, or ignored on local Wikimedia projects". Beyond the representative sample, if there is a particular denomination that has received attention via secondary sources, for example a defect in a given issue, than an inclusion of an image might be appropriate. --Hammersoft (talk) 13:15, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
2. Support A completely fair line to balance visualization on a list-like article and the free content mission. --MASEM (t) 13:21, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
3. Support, completely in line with the mission of the Foundation and in line with building a as-free-as-possible encyclopedia. --Dirk Beetstra 13:57, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
4. Support. The bills in a set are usually variations of the same style. Once we've illustrated the style, what's relevant about the others in the set are who and what is stamped there and why (ex: "Mr. President X is show in the Monumental Building because this is where he was killed..."). --Damiens.rf 14:41, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Oppose (Viewpoint 3)

1. Completely subjective. Makes massive assumptions on the part of the reader frankly, aswell as the nature of world currencies. It's laughable to pretend all Euro coins are pretty much the same, that 'seen one, seen them all' would remotely make sense in the context of someone actually using the articles for actual educational endeavour. The Foundation's imploring of 'minimal use' can just as easily be interpreted as 'restricted to fields such as currencies'. How many articles out of millions is that? I would bet it's minimal. There's not one person who comes up with these personal interpretations of what they think the Foundation means that has ever had any concrete backing for their assumptions. Thus, their often freely admitted philosophical positions on the matter - that Misplaced Pages shoud contain no non-free imagery at all, comes into play, to inform as to the rationality of their views. And as a policy with legal implications - there's also not a single legal precedent that comes close to their interpretations either. Infact, quite the opposite as has already been alluded to. That's in contrast to something like the BLP policy, where there is actual legal precedent for a hell of a lot of it, and legal principle as well as common sense precautionary principles backing the rest, not least common decency. The same cannot really be argued here tbh. MickMacNee (talk) 13:54, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

   Groups have been sued - and lost - for overuse of fair use media . There is legal precedent here. Furthermore, there are Wikis, liked the German one, that allow no non-free images, and they seem to be thriving just as well. I don't expect we'll ever convince enough editors that en.wiki should go that way, but we still need to recognize its possible to be using zero non-free media and still serve an educational purpose. Misplaced Pages cannot be the end-all, be-all of the web , and we should rely on official external sources to provide complete imagery for a topic, something WP simply cannot nor should not be able to do. --MASEM (t) 14:11, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

   The JK Rowling lexicon? Not even comparable. I said precedent, not 'a case'. MickMacNee (talk) 15:02, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

   It was tried and won in a court of law. Therefore: precedent. Of course, WP itself has never been tried and sued yet (to the best that I know) for fair use overuse, and the "educational" aspect as opposed the commercial aspect of the lexicon is a strong differentiator, but the precedent is still there. --MASEM (t) 15:54, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

   This slippery slope argument doesn't hold water. The FBI tried to sue and Misplaced Pages said "bring it on". Illustrating what each banknote/coin looks should be a bare minimum for every coinage article in a quality encyclopedia. — BQZip01 —  22:57, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

   Several mistakes in that statement, making it incomparable to the issue at hand: 1) the FBI only requested its removal, which the Foundation say "no" and 2) that's a PD image (for en.wiki) and thus there's nothing regarding "fair use" on the claim. If the FBI followed up on the Foundation's response, the newsfeeds are awfully quiet about it. . --MASEM (t) 23:07, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

   I believe it's incorrect to state that the German Misplaced Pages uses no non-free images. If that's the case, what are images like this doing in articles? Firsfron of Ronchester 14:23, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

   Trademarks != copyrighted/NFC images. A trademarked image may be considered too simple to be copyrigtable (see Threshold of Originality), which appears to be the case here. --MASEM (t) 14:31, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

   No, this is a non-free image. See the same logo on our project. Are you telling me that images like these are "too simple" to be copyrightable, but are listed as non-free on our encyclopedia project, and have an equivalent tag on the German project ("the file may only be used for encyclopedic purposes"), but are somehow "free" images? Firsfron of Ronchester 14:44, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

   German copyright law is a little unique, under German law they are not copyrightable, just trademarkable. ΔT 14:52, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

   That is not what Masem is stating. He is stating that the image is "too simple" to be copyrightable, citing Threshold of originality, not that the German copyright law is unique. And if German copyright law is unique enough that non-free images may be used in encyclopedia articles, what is the point of stating that the "German Misplaced Pages uses no non-free images" when we cannot fall back on the same laws on the English language Misplaced Pages? Masem stated that it is "possible to be using zero non-free media and still serve an educational purpose," citing the German Misplaced Pages as example, but that is not the case. If their copyright laws are different, that does not help us on this project. Firsfron of Ronchester 15:03, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

   Also to add that the ToO does vary by country to country, where it exists (much as the Freedom of Panorama does as well). --MASEM (t) 15:10, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

   Under German law, those images are free, hence, the German Misplaced Pages does not use any non-free images, and hence, it is possible to build a Wiki without any non-free images. --Dirk Beetstra 15:12, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

   Under another encyclopedia project, the images are not trademarked (but rights are reserved). These are not free images; they may not be used freely (the tag clearly states they "may only be used for encyclopedic purposes"). And so it is not possible to build a Wiki without any free images, and certainly not on the English language edition of Misplaced Pages, where German law does not apply. Firsfron of Ronchester 15:27, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

   I would like to see proof that it is not possible to build an encyclopedia without non-free images. That none exists doesn't mean it isn't possible... —Кузьма 18:09, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

2. Oppose based solely upon the wording. This RfC is designed to answer that question, not codify that phrasing and inviting more discussions like this. Let's solve the problem people. I'd prefer to have a "let's have no images" than "let's decide every individual article differently." — BQZip01 —  23:10, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Comment (Viewpoint 3)

Viewpoint 4: It is impossible to cover numismatics, a visual subject, without images of the subject

Support (Viewpoint 4)

1. Misplaced Pages can NEVER be a 100% 'pure' 💕. Too many images are irreplaceable so the policy is 'oh well never mind, let's use it anyway'. When it comes to numismatics, articles such as 'Banknotes of XYZ', the article is about the banknotes - about a visual object whose image is essential to understanding and study of that topic. This is not like 'Cameron Diaz', where a single image is sufficient for identification and in any case the article is more about what she has done than what she looks like, this is a topic for which the images are essential for appreciating the subject. Looking at one of the articles cited: the images convey far more information than the text about society, revolutionary heroes, culture, and so on, than the text ever could. As an aside, of that article, it appears from discussions that all images prior to 1999 are public domain while the status of those post-1999 images is less clear. It seems rather pointless in that context to have 100 public domain banknotes and then omit the 9, assuming they are copyrighted, that are actually currently circulating, for ideological free culture reasons. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.162.117.177 (talk) 14:14, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

   the images convey far more information than the text about society, revolutionary heroes, culture, and so on, than the text ever could. Text that states exactly what is represented on the various denominations is an equivalent replacement for the images of the same to this end. If US currency were not PD, a list of each president on the front and the monument/location on the rear would be serving the same purpose as showing each bill. --MASEM (t) 14:18, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

2. Per the argument expressed in support of viewpoint 2.  Sandstein  18:14, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Oppose (Viewpoint 4)

1. Oppose "ideological free culture reasons" are precisely our reason for existence. As inconvenient as that is, that is our purpose here. Further, I don't think anybody is saying NO non-free images on numismatics articles. Judicious and selective use, yes. But, using every image from the set just because they exist is outside our scope. --Hammersoft (talk) 14:25, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
2. Oppose - Indeed, it's more important for an encyclopedia to explain the iconography used on the bills than to simply show them all. Who is this serious looking bearded guy? What's this building? Why were they selected to be stamped on the bill? I approve the selective use of images in such articles. --Damiens.rf 14:37, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
3. Oppose, funny, other Mediawiki wikis under the same Foundation rules do just that, they cope perfectly well without any non-free images. We are trying to build a free encyclopedia here. --Dirk Beetstra 15:00, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Uh, but 'other Mediawiki wikis' are not en.wikipedia. En.wikipedia DEPENDS on non-free images, you could just as well remove the images from Phan Thị Kim Phúc and say 'sorry, it's inconvenient but that's the way it is' - it would be stupid to do so so it hasn't happened; the same principle applies here, these articles are about visual objects of art/culture/commerce, and they are DEPENDENT on those images. It's just not true to say that a text description could replace these. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.162.117.177 (talk) 21:40, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Comment (Viewpoint 4)

Viewpoint 5: It is possible to build an encyclopedia without any non-free images

Support (Viewpoint 5)

1. An encyclopedia can be made based on free images only. This is done e.g. on the German Misplaced Pages (although they have a bit more leeway because they can use images which are free under their copyright law, but which would not be free under our copyright law). Furthermore, if a subject can not be shown via an image, it can be described - that goes for subjects for which we do not have images at all, that goes for subjects for which we do not have a suitable free image, and for subjects for which we do have a non-free image (but which we can not display under fair use). So, that should also be true for images which are fair-use (but still non-free) - we can do without them. --Dirk Beetstra 15:22, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
2. It is possible to build an excellent encyclopedia with only free images. Having one might even increase awareness for free content and generate even more free images. —Кузьма 18:20, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
3. With emphasis on "possible" and "an". It is not necessarily advisable or preferable, and the encyclopedia produced may be less useful/preferable. --Cybercobra (talk) 21:30, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Oppose (Viewpoint 5)

1. It is not possible to build a comprehensive encyclopedia without the use of images that are non-free under US law. Advocates of strict free-use-only are in fact advocating for a less-useful encyclopedia, and that is not why I am here. Thparkth (talk) 18:41, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
2. There are some claims above that "there are Wikis, liked the German one, that allow no non-free images, and they seem to be thriving just as well". These claims are patently false, as can be demonstrated by links to hundreds, if not thousands, of non-free images on the German language Misplaced Pages. If the idea is to provide a quality, thorough body of work that readers will understand, some amount of non-free media is necessary, just as fair-use text is often required to discuss someone's viewpoint. Firsfron of Ronchester 01:09, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

   The German wiki does not allow any non-free images (with respect to German copyright law - there may be non-free images that are on en.wiki that are free images on de.wiki). This is an invalid claim. --MASEM (t) 01:20, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Comment (Viewpoint 5)

• Really irrelevant to the discussion. Just plain overreaching. --Damiens.rf 15:25, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

  Overreaching in the aim of building a really 💕? --Dirk Beetstra 15:32, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

• So what? If you want en.wiki to contain no non-free content at all, then be upfront about your intent and put it to the community as a proposal, rather than keep pushing it as an all pervasive underlying agenda in Rfcs like this. It's sweeping statements like this that put some of the views above about 'how much is enough' into stark relief, when they aren't accompanied by any actual logical or intellectual point. And infact, the pointing out that even that decision of yes/no was left to local consensus at the German site, shows just how completely tendentious and unrepresentative these tedious invocations of the Foundation and the Mission are on this site in debates like this about the micro-interpretation of our NFCC criteria, as to wether we can use 2 or 20 or 200 images on currency articles. In the logic of some of the above comments, if 0 is the German interpretation of 'minimal', then we are destined for moral annihilation when it comes to Judgement Day. It's absurd. MickMacNee (talk) 15:46, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
  • Guess what? That's exactly what the German WP uses. "Zero non-free images" is the absolute threshold of the Foundations' request to keep things minimal. Mind you, I don't see consensus anywhere close to requiring the same on en.wiki, (even I don't think it wise to absolish all non-free media) , but we have to recognize that zero non-free media is a workable solution in other wikis. --MASEM (t) 15:52, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Consensus can not override this issue

I want to take the opportunity now, when at this point in time support for liberal inclusion of the non-free images is low, to point out a couple of points contrary to those wishing for liberal inclusion. Let me be clear; I have no objection to the RfC, else I would not have contributed to it above. But, the following needs to be stated, regardless of the outcome of the RfC.

Consensus is a powerful tool. Indeed, it is "Misplaced Pages's fundamental model" to our processes here. From that we see "Past decisions are open to challenge and are not binding". The problem is, that is not the case here. The Foundation has taken a stance on this issue. It is not a consensus decision. See Foundation:Resolution:Licensing policy, specifically point #3 where it says that non-free content use must be minimal. Also see the first line of that resolution where it says "The content of this page is an official policy approved by the Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees. This policy may not be circumvented, eroded, or ignored on local Wikimedia projects. " (emphasis mine) It is important to understand that even if 1000 Misplaced Pages editors all agreed that it was permissible to use 200 non-free images on an article, such a "consensus" would not be acceptable under the Foundation's dictum on the matter. We must keep non-free usage minimal and observe the "narrow limits" in which non-free content is allowed.

I understand and readily acknowledge that certain people wishing to allow liberal inclusion will rail against this, cast aspersions about people against liberal inclusion making themselves final arbiters, and claims that in order to be encyclopedic we have to be comprehensive, even when it comes to non-free content issues. I recognize that a large number of people have complained about non-free image removal across a variety of article types (discographies, episode lists, media station logos, bibliographies, sports series, and others). I would venture to guess that the number of people who have complained is easily ten times the number of people who have supported removal. But, in every case the removals have stood.

There is a reason for that. It is because the free content mission is more fundamental to the project than any other policy, guideline, essay, or opinion. We can and should permit non-free usage where it is imperative, as per the resolution linked above. But liberal inclusion of non-free images has never been and never will be within the scope of the project. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:24, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Nobody has to rail against it. They just have to ask you where the Foundation has authorised you to act as their official spokesperson and final judge of what is and is not "minimal usage" to be able to credibly make the sort of declarations as you have just done above? Explain by what mechanism this concept is actualy defined on local projects, if not by consensus? It bears repeating every single time, that for someone who likes to invoke the name of the Foundation so much on this issue as you do, to the nth degree & in complete and utter contempt of WP:TE, that the Foundation has never once declared any support whatsoever for your interpretation of what is and is not minimal use. Not once. Never. Which is odd, if it's not a matter for consensus. The Foundation have spoken out many times on other issues of legal implication policy which might in their eyes be being circumvented on local projects - child protection, BLP, explicit images, etc, etc, etc. Yet not this. Not once has anyone ever invoked OFFICE to remove instances of gross non-free image over use (and you're surely not going to now deny that you've been working on the assumption that all of these latest cases have been instances of gross violations?). Not once. Not ever. The unpalatable truth where you're concerned is that defining "minimal use" very much is a matter for local projects, and local projects work on consensus. Deal with it already. Or run for a seat on the board. Do anything except continue banging this drum everywhere and anywhere as if it were remotely true. As ever, I expect absolutely no reply from you on the substanive points made herein - WP:TE. MickMacNee (talk) 16:31, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

• I got as far as "authorised you to act..." and stopped. I've already responded to that preemptively, and see no reason to continue reading yet another assault upon me by you. You are of course welcome to another platform on which to voice your negative opinion of me. Please by all means feel free to continue. --Hammersoft (talk) 16:43, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

• As I predicted. A classic sign of a WP:TE - 'I need not respond to criticims of my views or interpretations of policy if I deem them to be an attack on my person.' It's just a shame that policy disagrees with this all to frequent tactic of yours. MickMacNee (talk) 17:11, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

• I see no compelling reason to respond to personal assaults upon me. Feel free to predict that I will continue as I have. You're absolutely correct. If this counts as tendentious editing by you, so be it. It's not a concern to me. Thank you, --Hammersoft (talk) 17:37, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

• Sigh. Another classic TE sign - respond with what you want the person to have said rather than what they actually said. Oh noes! Is this yet another attack on your person? Somebody stop me! I'm clearly out of control. Just grow up Hammersoft (oops, another one!). You can choose to ignore whoever you want on whatever grounds you like, whether it looks justified or just childish and deliberate evasion is down to others to call, and whether it justifies you continuing to make posts like the one above about the Foundation and consenus in a clear attempt to deceive other editors, and particulalry when you know full well it's been objected to, well that's eventually going to have to be a decision for administrators, because it's TE whether you like it or not. MickMacNee (talk) 17:45, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
• I also stopped exactly at "authorised you to act" and went on to read the reply, just to find out I was not alone on that. That is a very weak line of argumentation, MickMacNee. Please, attack the real arguments instead of fictitious one you created yourself (assuming you're really interested in the issue being discussed more that in the discussion itself). --Damiens.rf 17:56, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

• As above, you, and he, are free to ignore whatever you want, for whatever reasons you like, just don't then claim others didn't challenge your logic, or that you weren't warned when you are inevitably sanctioned for tendentious repetition of an argument you are unwilling to defend, but unable to stop repeating, in an attempt to disrupt & distort the consensus building process. He made his point at length, he even set aside an entire section for it complete with a header asserting Consensus can not override this issue. I've attacked the case he made directly. He's not replied, and in all honesty, I can't blame him either, if I was in his shoes I wouldn't know how to counter my rebuttal either, faced as he is with some pretty awkward basic facts. But he is as we speak, having absolved himself of the need to defend this position here, making the same case repeatedly, making editors think they are going against the Foundation resolution for simply expressing their own views on what is and isn't minimal use. This is tendentious editting, pure and simple. MickMacNee (talk) 19:41, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

• Please feel free to report me to whatever noticeboard you feel appropriate for whatever behaviors you think I have engaged in that are negative to the project. Thank you, --Hammersoft (talk) 19:46, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

• Feel free not to keep reminding me what I'm free to do, and have told you repeated that I am well aware of. Or, if you want to show even more how you're a TE, then carry on telling established editors this sort of thing. MickMacNee (talk) 20:05, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

• Thanks for the invite. I will when you decide to post more about your negative opinion of me. Just wondering when you expect to provide diffs? --Hammersoft (talk) 20:15, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

• I posted a diff at 19.41. Did you miss it perchance? I'm losing track here of what you are intentionally ignoring as a tactic, and what you just generally ignore anyway. MickMacNee (talk) 01:22, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Consensus cannot override core policies and missions, but it is needed to determine how they are applied in practice. The answer to the question presented here, whether certain uses of certain images are compatible with NFCC8 because they are required for the reader's understanding, is not evident from the text of the policies, but needs to be determined through editorial judgment. And in the absence of a special authority empowered to decide this question, and in the absence of a decision by Foundation authorities, consensus is the only model by which we can arrive at a meaningful decision about how to apply NFCC8 to this case.  Sandstein  18:20, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

• Of course. But equally obvious is that we can not erode the Foundation's stance on the minimal use of non-free content requirement. --Hammersoft (talk) 18:27, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
  • Who's eroding it? Sandstein has just laid it out perfectly. What constitutes minimal use is a matter for consensus, ergo, the judgement of whether it's being eroded is too. Unless of course, the Foundation disagrees and steps in, as it has done elsewhere in real cases of erosion/subversion. MickMacNee (talk) 19:41, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
    • Such as? --Hammersoft (talk) 19:46, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
      • See the post you elected to ignore. This is what happens when you don't pay attention to others, you miss out crucial details. MickMacNee (talk) 20:05, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
        • And still ignored. This is what happens when you decide to use the methods you continue to choose. Could you please answer the question without couching it within a personal assault? --Hammersoft (talk) 20:15, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
          • • See the post above that you elected to ignore. That's what I said the last time. That's what I'll say the next time. That's what I'll say forever more, until you grow the fuck up. Oops. Another personal assault. Dammit. MickMacNee (talk) 01:22, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
          • MickMacNee, please be advised that, since you have said something negative about HS in the past, your opinions are apparently irrelevant to him (Please note that HE created this page, not me). HS, by ignoring him, you are ignoring debate. You are effectively yelling and screaming over your opponent and ignoring any insight; that's fillibustering, not a discussion. — BQZip01 —  23:06, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
• MickMacNee hid the head of the nail with this one, HS. Consensus indeed cannot override policy, but it can decide on application of policy. In this case, consensus can decide what "minimal" means. — BQZip01 —  23:02, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

That's swell. Now somebody tell me WHY currency illustrations are regarded as "non-free images" when every numismatic catalog and every numismatic periodical in the world uses them regularly... Carrite (talk) 00:04, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

We are talking "free" as in speech, not as in beer. Certainly the images are "free" as in beer and zero-cost to obtain, but that's not the concern. In several countries the artwork on the images has a copyright held by the artist, the government, or some other entity. As long as they hold copyright, these images cannot be easily redistributed with free content used by Misplaced Pages under the CC-BY family of open licenses. Thus we have to treat them as "non-free", and apply strict requirements to their use per the Foundation. --MASEM (t) 00:13, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Songs

I know there wasn't much in the consensus area when I left two years ago and there probably isn't much in that area now, looking at the conversations above this one, but I raise the issue of song samples on the artist article. If this has been discussed to death recently where we got some consensus, point me at an archive where I can look. It's articles like George Harrison#Guitar work where it has a mini-gallery of songs like "A Hard Day's Night" and "Till There Was You" off to the right. Personally, I don't see how what the George Harrison article says that is significally enhanced by those songs being there. Specifically:

• 8. Contextual significance. Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding. Purely decorative images are not appropriate.

All the George Harrison article mentions about those two songs is:

1. Harrison explored several guitar instruments, the twelve-string, the sitar and the slide guitar, and developed his playing from tight eight- and twelve-bar solos in such songs as "A Hard Day's Night" and "Can't Buy Me Love", to lyrical slide guitar playing, first recorded during an early session of "If Not for You" for Dylan's New Morning in 1970.
2. The earliest example of notable guitar work from Harrison was the extended acoustic guitar solo of "Till There Was You", for which Harrison purchased a José Ramírez nylon-stringed classical guitar to produce the sensitivity needed.

I could be just be getting picky here, but it doesn't seem one sentence each about a song or his guitar playing is really all that significant in terms of requiring a fair use audio recording. Do the recordings really illustrate to the reader the "tight eight- and twelve-bar solos" or "nylon-stringed sensitivity"? I fully understand the fair-use claim of the song recordings in the articles about the songs themselves, but the one sentence mention really bothers me. I think the article accurately describes something the reader doesn't even get by listening to the fair use recording. Personally, I think this contradicts fair use criteria number eight in that we get more from the article than we do the fair use recording. I don't have a personal preference if these should be left in or not, but it seems to me that it is excessive. — Moe ε 22:26, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

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