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    Problematic user who does not listen or respond

    I have been dealing with the edits of ポケットモンスター エニシングゴーズ (talk · contribs) for a month now. He has persisted in modifying content on Gokaigers (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) despite several requests to not add the content (as he is the only individual who does so). Lately, he has been focusing on adding a list to the article that was removed in early April, and does so every two weeks. He initially created a separate article for the content (see Ranger Keys (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)), but he has instead insisted on adding this content to the article. I have told him total of three times to not add the content to the page (including after his most recent edit to the page).

    On top of this, he has operated other accounts, but they were not used inappropriately. Just obstructively. The individual can clearly write in English, but he does not respond to any queries. And I am getting tired of having to remove the section I have asked him not to replace every two weeks.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 02:07, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

    I think that repetitive 3RR-naive editing is a problem in most cases, and this is a particular example of that. This sort of thing happens a lot and it's rare someone knows where to bring the issue. Open communication is key and this is a good example of how that's simply not happening. Shadowjams (talk) 09:44, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
    So what the hell do we do about it?—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 18:52, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
    Did you have a consensus somewhere for redirecting Ranger Keys to the piece on Ranger Keys in the Gokaigers article? It means nothing to me (Oh Vienna) so I don't know whether there is a discussion somewhere that agreed there should not be an article. If such an article has previously been Afd'd, then we have a problem. If not, I'd just un-redirect his article and leave him to it. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:59, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
    The article got put up for speedy deletion and then someone realized that it would work better as a redirect. And the problem is that the content is entirely unencyclopedic and it would be destroyed at AFD anyway. The information does not require its own page and most certainly does not require its own coverage. The article, if it were be allowed to proliferate, would be a list of approximately all 200 fictional characters that have been part of a 37 year old franchise with the word "Key" appended to their name and a sentence that says "transforms X into Y" (or exactly what you see on User:ポケットモンスター エニシングゴーズ). I removed the list from the main article a while ago because it was becoming a vio of WP:IINFO and I cannot seem to explain it clearly enough to Pokemon Anything Goes that the content is not welcome because he returns every two weeks to put the list back onto Gokaigers.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 00:28, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    Seems like there should be a discussion on the talk page about how to resolve this as it appears to be a content issue... maybe time for an article RfC? - Burpelson AFB 14:40, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    Why should there be an RFC when only one individual keeps putting back content that he has been asked not to replace on the page?—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 00:09, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

    Two edit warriors - requesting a standard offer

    Eagles247 (talk · contribs) and I (Magog the Ogre (talk · contribs)) have been watching St. John's University (New York), where two particularly nasty edit warriors showed an inability to cooperate, and were routinely getting themselves blocked and unblocked. After months of blocks and block evasion, it has come out that both are editors which have been blocked/banned at one point:

    note that both users have used their IPs consistently in order to edit, so i don't see any privacy issues with listing them here).

    CAtruthwatcher was blocked for continual block evasion (on my part), although some of it later turned out to be likely fraudulent (quite possibly attempts by Mykungfu to make CAtruthwatcher look bad; however; it is very difficult to tell given the history; Eagles and I only know that both users have badly misbehaved). However, after CATruthwatcher took an approximate 5 month break, s/he came back behaving a bit better, so Eagles decided to look the other way and allow the editing to continue anonymously. Since this time, I've had to reblock the IP for 24 hours for violation of the three-revert rule.

    Mykungfu is formally requesting a standard offer, and I think that if he behaves himself well, could be worth a try. Eagles247 agrees with me. So what I'm proposing is this:

    • Both CAtruthwatcher/Mykungfu have their ban/blocks lifted.
    • Both accounts are limited to a 1RR/week restriction. Any violations which don't fall under the exceptions clause of WP:3RR, even accidental or partial reverts, will be met with a block. Exceptions can be made only if there is a clear and obvious consensus from all parties involved on the talk page of the said article.
    • Both editors are highly encouraged to use the talk page of the St. John's University article. Both editors are reminded that if the other breaks 1RR, that's not an excuse to break it themselves.

    So what do you all think?

    PS. The unblock request for Mykungfu is at the bottom of User talk:24.239.153.58. Magog the Ogre (talk) 06:36, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

    I'm nearly always supportive of former banned users who have seen the light come back, and this seems no different. Glad to see a reform. -- ۩ Mask 10:11, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
    Editor 1:
    Editor 2:
    Take a look at the block logs of both parties. The Mykungfu editor (Editor 1) has been socking very broadly since 2006 and I suggest he should remain blocked. In my opinion, CAtruthwatcher might be unblocked with the Standard Offer if he would agree to a ban from the topic of St. John's University (New York), broadly construed, and be limited to a single account and no IPs. EdJohnston (talk) 12:18, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

    I'm bumping this to keep it alive; I think I'd likek more than two non-involved opinions. Magog the Ogre (talk) 09:19, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

    As uninvolved non-admin, I see no indication that Mykungfu has seen any light. If CAtruthwatcher was blocked because MyKungFu tricked admins into thinking he was evading the block, then unblocking him with a 1RR restriction seems reasonable. --OpenFuture (talk) 09:55, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
    CAtruthwatcher was blocked for edit warring at first, then sockpuppetry (not because of Mykungfu), and finally edit warring again. Eagles 24/7 (C) 19:00, 17 May 2011 (UTC)


    Magog and Eagles, you guys need to read up on the policy in question. The correct procedure is not to sock - and most certainly not to ignore a blocked editor who is now socking as an IP, whether they are editing productively or not. CAtruthwatcher (talk · contribs) needs to go back to their original account and make the unblock request there - or confirm that they no longer have access to that account. I'm not going to block the IP, I'm going to AGF and ask this editor to not edit the project while this is under discussion, except for edits relating to an unblock request on the talkpage of the CAtruthwatcher (talk · contribs) account (or here if they no longer have access to that account).

    The other editor just appears to be a sockfarmer, and I can't see any reason to unblock them. Elen of the Roads (talk) 16:14, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

    If you don't have access to the CATruthwatcher account, there's no reason to unblock it. You can create an account with the IP you are using now. I do think you will have to accept some sort of restriction relating to St. John's University (New York), at least to start with, as you've been blocked so many times for edit warring. Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:50, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
    1) Can you clean this up? WP:TL;DR. 2) I asked you not to mention 97 or go on the attack against him and call him a sock, but that's exactly what you just did. Frankly none of us cares who socked when; you're both guilty of it. Magog the Ogre (talk) 08:27, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    That's getting better; thanks. Magog the Ogre (talk) 08:50, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

    Comments from 97.77.103.82 a.k.a. CAtruthwatcher (talk · contribs)

    User 24/Mykungfu has not "seen the light." In the past five years, he has used over 100 sockpuppets in order to deface and vandalize a plethora of Misplaced Pages pages while harassing countless users. He has took elaborate steps to get others blocked so he could continue his vandalism and harassment. He has used sockpuppets to convince administrators to ban good editors and has impersonated users in an effort to get them blocked. Thumbing through his edits under his many aliases, one observes that he has rarely made any positive edit that was not reversed at least once. 97.77.103.82 (talk) 10:28, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

    Magog, I take great offense to you grouping me with the menace that is 24, most especially after learning of his vicious vandalism of Misplaced Pages over the last many years since he was connected to Mykungfu. This banned user, who has used over 100 sockpuppets to harass many users and deface many Misplaced Pages pages, started early on a crusade to get me and anyone else who disagreed with him blocked. I pleaded with administrators to help; not one listened.

    Perusing the St. John's Talk Page archives from before I arrived, I see that others had similar experiences. Mykungfu was able to go on with his vandalism and those trying to stop him were frequently reprimanded by administrators because of Mykungfu's deceitful ways. The blocks imposed wrongly on me cannot be equated with the blocks and bans rightly imposed on Mykungfu. And because he was a banned user, I had every right to reverse his vandalism.

    Mykungfu, using his sockpuppets, was the individual who got me blocked in the first place; I should be apologized to, not grouped with this individual. I also did not evade any block, for I am free to use my IP address when I have the urge to do so, especially since it was known that there was a connection. How can that be seen as similar to the banned Mykungfu using over 100 aliases? I also requested an unblock on the registered account some time ago, but no action was taken. 97.77.103.82 (talk) 10:45, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

    I would like to confirm that I do not have access to the CAtruthwatcher (talk · contribs) account. I would also like to request an unblock on that account so I may create a new registered account.

    I unfortunately took the bait of vandal and banned user 24.239.153.58 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)/Mykungfu, who has now been connected to over 100 blocked sockpuppets. Some free time last week gave me the opportunity to thumb through the many archives and discussions relating to this individual, and it seems as though he has unfortunately vandalized a plethora of Misplaced Pages pages and has harassed numerous editors and administrators for the last five or more years. I also discovered that he has used similar tactics in the past in order to get other good editors blocked by administrators. He is an expert at this, and both Magog and Eagles, finally catching on to what had been truly occurring for all those months, caught him impersonating me and using numerous IP addresses to slander me.

    Those who pushed for a block of CATruthwatcher many months ago have now been exposed to be one person -- Mykungfu. Since I have come back, and since 24* has been linked to the banned vandal Mykungfu, administrators have realized that I am a decent editor who is willing to discuss and truly contribute to Misplaced Pages. 97.77.103.82 (talk) 17:46, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

    Thanks for the response. Is there a way, though, to unblock the account in order to avoid sockpuppet accusations in the future? I think that if an administrator could unblock the account, it would save a whole lot of headache later. I foresee instances in the future of having to try and explain this whole story to those who do not know the history.

    And I would have no problem with some type of temporary restriction relating to St. John's University (New York). With the banned sockmaster 24.239.153.58 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)/Mykungfu gone, I can't see any problems arising. 97.77.103.82 (talk) 23:47, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

    It is difficult for me to understand everything being said by the banned sockmaster Mykungfu (24*), for as usual, the writing is atrocious. We all makes mistakes -- I make many and there might be some in this post -- but his writing is almost always illogical. I am not being uncivil; I am stating to others only that it is a possibility that I could misinterpret some of his words because of the deplorable and illogical writing. From what I was able to comprehend, he is using so-called proof compiled by one of his 100 sockpuppets to slander others. He cannot connect anyone to any sock he mentioned; he knows this, but he drives on. He is on his last leg and fighting for anything he can get.

    And for those watching, he has shown how he does not abide by rules and will not abide by rules if he is let back on Misplaced Pages. The banned sockmaster's block had temporarily been lifted on his 24* IP sock by Magog just so he could post here. Magog told him explicitly not to mention socks and not to attack me or others users, but he did just that. The destructive vandal cannot be trusted.

    This vandal's ban must stay, for his over 100 sockpuppets have done great destruction to Misplaced Pages. 97.77.103.82 (talk) 15:41, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

    CAtruthwatcher was reverting the vandalism of a banned user who was using several sockpuppets simultaneously to make POV and destructive edits. CAtruth notified several administrators, including Eagles, and plead with them to assist in some fashion. No administrator took action because with the use of Mykungfu's several socks, it looked as though the community was against CAtruth. Misplaced Pages editors have a right to revert the edits of a banned user if he is vandalizing a page with numerous sockpuppets simultaneously. The block on CAtruth cannot be justified in light of the revelation that all against him were sockpuppets of a banned user. 97.77.103.82 (talk) 15:55, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

    Comments from CashRules, UnclePaco, etc.

    I would like the references to myself as a banned user to cease. There is a difference between banning and blocking. I was blocked not banned. If there is any proof that would show that I am a banned user and not blocked, I would like proof to show. This is giving a highly negative influence on this report. As is shown here Misplaced Pages:Banning policy (Banning should not be confused with blocking) I was never banned. So this block based on a ban isn't correct. I served the 3rr suspension. As is shown in Misplaced Pages:Standard offer I am willing to "It's simple: Wait six months without sockpuppeting. Promise to avoid the behavior that led to the block/ban. Don't create any extraordinary reasons to object to a return." I would also like to point out that I am not an Single-purpose account. My contributions range many different arenas. 24.239.153.58 (talk) 07:19, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    I would like to show the pages that I have created that were of benefit to wikipedia including Ron Duncan,Carlos Valdes, CCNY Point Shaving Scandal, Dominican Republic National Beach Volleyball Tour,The Levin Institute ,Elijah McCall, Thomas Carroll (martial_artist), Rhadi Ferguson, Floyd Layne, Antihaitianismo, Dodge Venom, Almost all my blocks were based off the first one when a checkuser was done. I've never really had an opportunity to have a short term stay to be a strong positive contributer.24.239.153.58 (talk) 04:44, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    I have been reading the ANI, and I would like to say that I didn't block 97 he was blocked because of his numerous actions and this was observed by both administrators and interactions by myself and another user DC (Whom he has claimed is me) I am willing to undergo a sockpuppet report to prove that I am not the User DC
    24.239.153.58 (talk) 07:53, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

    The other side of the sockpuppet story

    All you have to do is look at the names that I had listed. Contributions easily show this, even if he denies it was him. Past that you will see an edit to Armed Forces Popular Culture

    you will also see an edit to Armed Forces Popular Culture . Later CATruth appeared and was blocked same thing with Achieve student blocked . Later Wluckey. His other ip account and his Main IP Account and Recognition by Admin that 67 is CATruth . His edits from 67 - upstate NY Journalism degree was a big deal to 67 as it was to CAtruth as does sock of CATrut
    This back and forth between myself and 97 goes back years (2008) not months. (2010)

    There is always a removal of the same items and that is how I am aware that it is 97 with over 40 different alias. From 2008 72.229.244.82, to 2009 66.108.204.165 to march 2010 66.108.204.65 to Nov 2010 with CAtruthwatcher to Nov 2010 Achievestudent and removes it again under 97 . Under 67, he was a big journalism at st john's fan. as is 97 . Previous incarnations included user TiconderogaCCB (sp) (viewable on the sockpuppet report) with an admission of being a worker for the marketing department of St. John's University . Sadly the majority of the edits of said user have been in relation to one subject matter and as a result is a Single-purpose account Sockpuppet report was opened but was closed when CAtruthwatcher was blocked (several months ago). There you will see a list of his indef blocked sockpuppet. I was in the middle of making a new report when I was blocked. I was using the above as evidence There you will see a list of the socks used before. 24.239.153.58 (talk) 21:05, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

    In correction to editor EdJohnston
    Editor 2:

    I'm sorry, I was trying to give an understanding that it isn't simply one side. All of his edits attacked me and gave to people the idea that I was the only one doing it and was doing it for years, when it was the both of us. 2 opinions already came out against me and for him based on a biased pov given out. I'm cleaning it up now! 24.239.153.58 (talk) 08:33, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

    Community ban on SuperblySpiffingPerson?

    Community ban enacted. Salvio 08:54, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


    SuperblySpiffingPerson is a fairly prolific sockmaster - see latest SPIs. I came across him at List of surviving veterans of World War I where he has repeatedly tried to delete or blank it - one of his socks (which was subsequently blocked) raised an AfD very recently which resulted in a Snow Keep. Since then, he's twice blanked it from an IP and once from a near-certain new sock account. Looking at the SPIs, he seems to be obsessively making non-consensus changes to other articles too and causing quite a lot of work for others - mostly relating to the fighting in Libya, it seems. I'd like to propose a community ban so that his socks can be blocked on sight - no editing on Misplaced Pages at all. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 09:48, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

    I've notified the sockmaster, and his latest probable sock, TheOnlyRationalBeing -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 09:52, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
    • Support as nominator -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 09:48, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
    • Support, that SPI page has been appearing on my watchlist with some regularity. --Errant 09:59, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
    • Support ban With 36 accounts/IPs, + more suspected, the amount of sockpuppetry has gone way beyond enough to justify a ban. JamesBWatson (talk) 10:15, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
    • Support ban enough said and done, a ban is fully warranted by now. noclador (talk) 11:11, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
    • Support. A ban is clearly the best course of action at this point. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 11:16, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
    • Support. He earned it! Favonian (talk) 11:27, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
    • Support per errantX. Kittybrewster 11:35, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
    • Support every word written in this section. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:57, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
    • Support One sock is an ill-advised mistake. Two is troubling. Three or four might be somewhat overlookable if it was all one incident. By the time we get into double digits, it is time for a community ban. I have yet to see a single case where double digits could be justified as anything other than willful and flagrant disregard for bright line policy. It’s malicious and disruptive. Burn with fire. Sven Manguard Wha? 22:14, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
    • Support Having dealt with him since he first came around, I say bring the mighty banhammer down upon him. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | Say Shalom! 03:55, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
    • Comment Having reported Superbly twice for edit warring, I initially thought he might have an interesting viewpoint to bring to Misplaced Pages, but unfortunately he seems single minded in his uncollaborative edits. As with Flinders, I have seen Superbly start from his first edit and continue since then. I am in favor of a ban, but I am a little disappointed by the attitudes and seemingly vengeful attitudes of some of my fellow editors in this thread. Having been involved in a few AN/I discussions at this point, such overhyped comments are not tremendously help, in my opinion, and only serve to create a more divisive atmosphere at AN/I. By all means, institute a ban in this case, but let's try and keep the celebration down. We're here to work together and losing a member of the community (no matter how egregious) shouldn't be cause for celebration. --Avanu (talk) 00:27, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    Avanu, I don't know where you have been for the past month. He has done nothing but make socks and vandalize pages. He isn't even trying to be constructive anymore. We are WAY beyond being nice at this point sorry. TL565 (talk) 06:12, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    He was never constructive, that isn't what my point was about. -- Avanu (talk) 03:14, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Censorship of Islam related articles by Adamrce

    Summary of issue

    This incident is related to the controversial Jihad article regarding the user Adamrce (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), who seems to have reviewer rights, i feel he is abusing his reviewer rights. as he keeps removing my edits, and leaves warnings on my page, even though content i add is sourced (if thats what reviewer rights are???). The user has been on Misplaced Pages for about 1 month.

    I believe the user is censoring Misplaced Pages Islam related articles, every time i addressed his concerns with my edits, he adds a new reason why my edit should not be on wikipedia.

    What i want

    I want an admin to mediate or decide whether Adamrce was right to remove the content i added (the content was well sourced), and is about the opinion of the 4 school of Islamic thought on the rules of Jihad, to challenge the already existing rules of Jihad provided by the user Adamrce from bbc news. You can see the content i added here: Content i added in yellow

    Issue and evidence

    • User made a new section called “best Jihad”,Proof 1
    • There are many different interpretation on what the”best jihad” is. I notified the user that I will add alternative POV(points of view) to reflect the alternatie views, and asked whether he objects to this. He said “You're taking texture out of context”, so I doubt he would allow me to add it.Proof 2, the user called wiqi also said that if there are alternate views then i should add it here:Proof other users support altenrate view, where he said "You may wish to add any other interpretations of this concept in the same section"
    • Then he (Adamrce) also added BBC’s opinion on the rules of Jihad here:Proof 3
    • BBC is not an Islamic source, so I added views of 2 of the 4 Islamic schools of thought Hanafi and Shaffi, user removed these views which were properly sourced, his reason was

      “I don't think it's logical to add two schools out-of tens, which is pushing a minority POV that confuses users. If you'd like to add them, you need to be fair regarding the other schools too. “

      Proof 3
    • But then I added the opinion of all 4 major schools of Islamic thought (the 4 schools make up 80%+ of the worlds Muslim population) to satisfy the user (who as shown above did not like only giving views of 2 schools), another reason i added the 4 views, was to reflect Wikipedias major world view policy, user removed it on the grounds that

    “All of the primary sources you provided have a section that explains the reason of war, which you excluded”

    “You want to compete with BBC? Bring a secondary source! “

    Proof 4

    “Please stop your removal till the dispute clears. FollowWP:BRD, as you were warned yesterday!!!”

    , which he wrote while reverting my edit here: Proof 5

    • But 3/4 sources I used where secondary sources, which also contain excerpts of a primary source with analysis on it, like this

    Rudolph Peter, Translation of Averores rules of Jihad

    • After this, I removed BBC POV on the rules of Jihad, since there was a dispute going on over it, but user reverted my removal of the disputed content. So basically, I am frustrated because he removes my edits on the grounds that there is a dispute, but keeps his edit claiming they can only be removed after dispute is settled.
    • He also added a message on my wikipedia page, claiming I am censoring Misplaced Pages and could get banned here, and sent me warnigns that i will get banned for adding back to content : Proof 5
    • I added it back with compromise. Again I added the opinion of the 4 schools with more secondary sources and reasons for war (which he wanted), an against whom war can be made. User still removed them! Proof 6
    • I would like Misplaced Pages admins to decide whether the content I added is acceptable, and whether Adamrce is right to remove alternate POV.
    • I dont want to get involved in edit warring with this user, and based on the warnings he has left on my wiki page, it seems he has powers to ban me? He only created an account 1 month or so ago

    --Misconceptions2 (talk) 15:19, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

    Sources used

    User claimed he removed content because i need to use secondary sources, but the sources i used were secondary, the following sources were used:

    Secondary Source 1

    Book contains a primary source which is analysed by the author

    Excerpted from Edmond Fagnan, trans., Kitab al-Kharaj (Le livre de l'impot foncier) (Paris, 1921). English translation in Bat Ye'or, The Dhimmi: Jews and Christians under Islam (Madison, NJ: Fairleigh Dickinson University Press, 1985), pp. 165-72

    Excerpted from Edmond Fagnan, trans., Kitab al-Kharaj (Le livre de l'impot foncier) (Paris, 1921). English translation in Bat Ye'or, The Dhimmi: Jews and Christians under Islam (Madison, NJ: Fairleigh Dickinson University Press, 1985), pp. 166

    Primary source 1

    Reliance of the traveller: the classic manual of Islamic sacred law ʻUmdat al-salik

    Reliance of the Traveller, Northern Kentucky University

    Secondary source 2

    Used as primary source, as contains excerpts from a primary source Ǧihād aṣ-ṣaġīr:Legitimation und Kampfdoktrinen ,By Thomas Tartsch, Pg98

    Secondary source 3

    Excerpted from Bidayat al-Mudjtahid, in Rudolph Peters, Jihad in Medieval and Modern Islam: The Chapters on Jihad from Averroes' Legal Handbook "Bidayat al-mudjtahid," trans. and annotated by Rudolph Peters (Leiden: Brill, 1977), pp. 9-25

    Secondary source 4

    Contains primary sources also, is an analysis by a US government backed institution, regarding rules of war in Islam Non Combatants in Muslims Legal thought,Page 15

    Comments

    As a note, I have informed the user that this discussion has been opened. - SudoGhost (talk) 15:27, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

    Since it's fairly evident that both the reporter and the other user are engaged in an edit war, I've blocked both for 24 hours. PeterSymonds (talk) 15:51, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
    Non-admin observation Are blocked edtiors not supposed to remove block notices from their page except when expired/unblocked? Croben 16:23, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
    Looks like he reverted to having the warnings and notice. Well... My question still stands, if someone could answer it. Croben 16:29, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
    As per WP:REMOVE, "Sanctions that are currently still in effect, including declined unblock requests, ban, ArbCom-imposed edit restrictions, and confirmed sockpuppetry related notices ... may not be removed by the user" - SudoGhost (talk) 16:36, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
    Alright. I'll leave a note on his talkpage to make sure he knows. Croben 16:39, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

    Why? As long as they don't request an unblock, removing a block notice is the same as acknowledging it and waiting it out. It's only the denied unblock request that can't be removed, and that template even states as such (pretty sure it does). Leave 'em alone. 64.85.214.12 (talk) 16:44, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

    I think the IP is correct, actually. The removal of block notices isn't prohibited by WP:REMOVE, the text that SudoGhost quoted above omits that and nothing else in the guideline says otherwise. Any admin or other editor who wants to see if a person has an active block just has to look at their edit history, it will say so right at the top. -- Atama 19:42, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
    You're correct, it seems I misread 'ban' for 'block', my apologies. - SudoGhost (talk) 23:32, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

    I think there are good groundings for this complain. It seems that the user Adamrce (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is too uncompromising, with the objections is not entirely consistent, for there to be a development of the article where alternative well-sourced POV may contribute to the article and the debate. So in my opinion this has not been handled reasonably. And talking about doubtful sources, Proof 1 relies on references from www.khilafah.com, which seems to be from a sort of Hizb ut-Tahrir inclined webside, so maybe some double standard is also involved here? Davidelah (talk) 22:41, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

    I also find it highly dubious to create a section called "Best Jihad" based entirely on a quote on what the best jihad is. --OpenFuture (talk) 12:51, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
    Proof that user constantly changes reasons for removing properly sourced content
    • 1)First he claimed he removed content because i only added 2 major opinions and that its not fair that i did not add the views of the other schools of islam here (note that there are only 4 major schools of Sunni Islam, see Madh'hab article)
    • 2) After adding opinion of the 2 other schools, user removed data, now claiming "“You want to compete with BBC? Bring a secondary source!", and also said "All of the primary sources you provided have a section that explains the reason of war, which you excluded" here
    • 3) All the sources were secondary sources, but to satisfy the user, i added more secondary sources and reasons for war, then user claimed "You're taking texture out of context"original resource is not allowed, and the article is already tagged with too many quotes" here
    I came to conclusion that this user will never allow alternate views , he keeps changing reasons for removing content, now his reasons is that there is a dispute and cant add content until dispute settled, dispute is only between me and him, and no one else, and i think davidelah has disputed with him on the same topic also (before me)--Misconceptions2 (talk) 23:36, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

    Now i have added a properly referenced alternate opinion to the "best jihad" section, that user created recently. But user reverted my edit claiming "fixed misleading paraphrasing, according to the source; the whole section is about war, but I'm not sure if I got the sequence right" he said this, here, another user called "wiqi" stated , "You may wish to add any other interpretations of this concept in the same section"here, but Adamrce has problems adding alternate views, not only that. The info that he added(thats currently on that section) references www.khilafa.com, which is a website of Hizb ut-Tahrir, which is accused of supprting terrorism, He keeps complaining about using proper sources *sigh*. Yet source i added was a secondary source of a book by a famous muslim scholar called Ibn Nuhaas, who analyses a primary source called the hadiths,this is the book . --Misconceptions2 (talk) 00:06, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

    It's no secret that there's four major schools of Islamic thought, and it would be very useful to include summaries of their views on Jihad. It appears to me we have one editor who would like to do this and another editor who prefers the "western pop" version. Given the plaintiff's willingness to improve subject coverage, sources, and content and the defendant's obstinacy, I think we should warn Adamrce sternly to be more reasonable or be gone and award Misconceptions2 a Barnstar each for patience, scholarship, and perseverance. Rklawton (talk) 00:37, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
    I'm not sure if you got an understanding about the debate, sir. You, for yourself, said summaries.
    (1) The same discussion has been opened before. My main concern was not on the content nor the source. The two users were trying to prove that Jihad is to attack. The BBC source said that warfare Jihad is only allowed when under attack, which the four schools agree with that too; however, the editor was ignoring the content that explains the conditions in his source (i.e. in Shaffi: either attacked or surrounded by an enemy oppressing toward a war) and only inserted the parts that relate to a war. I insisted to discuss the topic before inserting, as it might be mislead to the readers. The user ignored most of my continues comments, and re-added the content after changing my least concerns. My main objective was to lead to a mutual agreed content on the talkpage, not the article. I wouldn't object on the schools if they were fairly inserted as a NPOV. I suggested to open a sandbox to fix the content together or get a third opinion, but I just don't think, in my opinion, that the editing should be done on the main article (especially as the inserted selection of content was picked based on a pov).
    (2) The editor inserted a source that said "highest Jihad" solely talking about war and phrased it to "best Jihad", so I changed the edited phrasing from "best Jihad" to make it identical to the source, "highest Jihad'. Is that pushing my POV?
    (3) The only dispute I got about my "Best Jihad" insertion is: "reverted Adamrce, there are many different quotes from muhammad about what the best jihad is". Another user put it back. I just put that source as a news article, but I would of inserted an alternative source if they ever objected (it already has another source referenced, btw).
    Hopefully someone can take a look at what was going on, instead of deciding based on the selected number of claims AdvertAdam 08:11, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
    • If you removed the alternate view i added to the "best jihad" section on the grounds that it uses the word "highest", not "best".Then i could just as easily change the title of that section to "Highest and Best Jihad", so then you would have no reason to remove it? Or would you then have another reason to remove it. In my opinion, your arguments for removing content is putting you in a bad light here.
    • I added the rules of warfare, but you did not like it, because you wanted the reasons for war. Which i added also. You clearly have in your head the idea that Jihad is only in defence, and that the 4 schools of Islam agree with you. Even the Islam article mentions that , there are scholars who believe that Jihad is also offensive and to conquer. This is indicated in the following hadith of Muhammad, which i can also add to wikipedia with a secondary source, but you would remove:

    On the day of Al-Ahzab (i.e. clans) the Prophet said, (After this battle) we will go to attack them (i.e. the infidels) and they will not come to attack us." Sahih Bukhari, 5,59,435

    • the secondary source to back this up would be:

    The Holy war as it is known in Islam is basically an offensive war, and it is the duty of all Muslims of every age, when the needed military power is available, because our prophet Muhammad said that he is ordered by Allah to fight all people until they say ‘No God but Allah,’ and he is his messenger (pg 134)...It is meaningless to talk about the holy war as only defensive, otherwise, what did the prophet mean when he said, "from now on even if they don’t invade you, you must invade them. (Pg242)

    • As for your claim that the 4 schools agree with your view that Jihad is only defensive, read the yellow part. Does it really seem that the 4 schools agree with you. I think you removed it because they dont agree with you. Here is a pic just so you know that i did add reasons for war and have highlighted the necessary part to show you they dont agree with you.
    • You gave a quote from the reliance of the traveller, to prove that the 4 schools agree with you. The reliance of the traveller is only 1 school, not 4. But the book does not agree with you either " section 9.8 "objectives of jihad", it says:

      The caliph (o25) makes war upon Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians... until they become Muslim or else pay the non-Muslim poll tax (O: in accordance with the word of Allah Most High, "Fight those who do not believe in Allah and the Last Day and who forbid not what Allah and His messenger have forbidden-who do not practice the religion of truth, being of those who have been given the Book-until they pay the poll tax out of hand and are humbled" (Koran 9.29) Reliance of the Traveller section 9.8

    • In section 9.9 it says:

    The caliph fights all other peoples until they become Muslim (O: because they are not a people with a Book, nor honored as such, and are not permitted to settle with paying the poll tax (jizya) Reliance of the Traveller section 9.9

    --Misconceptions2 (talk) 13:11, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

    On the 4 schools issue, I think there is a misunderstanding of what an Islamic school of jurisprudence is supposed to be. Roughly speaking, schools of jurisprudence are concerned with more general issues, like methods of interpreting texts or defining technical terms, such as Sunnah and Qiyas, etc. Anything beyond that, e.g., rules of jihad, is considered merely an opinion of one scholar which may or may not be common or acceptable to other scholars and followers of the same school. So instead of quoting individual scholars, I suggest that Misconceptions2 should find secondary sources that a) survey the opinions of multiple scholars of one school, and b) determine which points that most scholars agree upon. Wiqi 14:14, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

    What you are suggesting is impossible, where can i get such surveys from, the scholars of the past are not alive (do you know any organisation that takes such surveys, i believe you just dont want these rules on wikipedia). Also, you are trying to be technical, by claiming "interpreting texts or defining technical terms, such as Sunnah and Qiyas, etc. Anything beyond that, e.g., rules of jihad, is considered merely an opinion". Of course it is, so are the rules on Sunnah and Qiyas, those are opinions of scholars and schools, just like the rules of Jihad. I want to add these "opinions" of the scholars on the grounds ofNotability, as they do represent their schools.

    If you would like, i can also add the opinions of the founders of those schools on the rules of Jihad, but those opinions are FAR FAR more extreme. You can find some here. Non Combatants in Islam- By the Hudson think tank , if i added some of their opinions on jihad (like allowing the killing of non combatants indiscriminately), would you remove it?-Misconceptions2 (talk) 15:48, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

    It is simple really. "Reliance of the Traveler" is just one book of Shafi'i jurisprudence out of many, all of which are still actively being studied (some even considered more important than the Reliance). So what does the other Shafi'i books say about the rules of jihad? If you can't answer this simple question, then you should only cite secondary sources and not selectively quoting one primary source and ignoring all others (which violates WP:NOR). In any case, I suggest taking this discussion back to Talk:Jihad, as we are off topic here. Wiqi 16:40, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

    In Talk:Jihad, there was an endless discussion (even Adamrce acknowledged this). This can only be sorted by admin intervention. Furthermroe, i DID cite mainly secondary sources which were analysing those primary sources, see above. Ok you tell me in your opinion what are the most important books of those 4 schools of Islam, and i will cite them with secondary sources, i also hope you dont remove them. I am going to great lengths to satisfy you and Adamrce (i doubt i will ever satisfy Adamrce).I think it is best that i just cite the views of the founders of the 4 schools

    All i want is a resolution from admins about the actions of Adamrce. Since he does not allow alternate views--Misconceptions2 (talk) 17:14, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

    Requesting an opinion on the procedures:

    I'm User:Adamrce, so I hope you don't get confused with my signature. The only pov I'm pushing, which I think is legitimate, is to keep the discussion on the talk-page or soap box, not the main article as it could mislead readers during editing; where anyone can invite admins, mediators, third opinions...etc, because this topic is tagged with controversial. I hope any admin can comment on this point, as I've invited the disputer to build a soapbox together many times with no hope. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to reply to these claims here, but I'll answer some so no-one thinks I'm avoiding this discussion. Please correct me if I'm wrong, as I've stopped editing everything.

    • Misconceptions2, you have no right, at all, to change the wording to your own intentions. I did not remove your contribution as you claim, but corrected the wording to match the source. It said "Highest Jihad" not "Best Jihad". However, you reverted it back to the wrong interpretation and User:Wiqi55 corrected it, again. I hope you're satisfied.
    • Yes, your source says that the Muslims fight the non-Muslims until they pay tax or become Muslims in-order to live in peace, BECAUSE a section before it said that it is when their enemies surround them calling for war!!! We can't fix this wording on the article, which I suggested many times to open a soapbox to work on it together. Again, you can't just pick the statements you like and ignore the rest.

    I'm not sure if we're allowed to finish this discussion here, so I can answer all disputes. AdvertAdam 21:12, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

    Oh please (i have been as compromising as i can, and have done everything to satify you), i really dont have the stomach to argue with you any further. Clearly any scholarly opinions that goes against your idea that "Jihad is defensive and is done only to bring peace", will be removed by you, with whatever excuse you think of (even if it meets all the rules of wiki, yes this is an accusation which i have provided proof for right at top). I would like an admin to read what has already been said and help us end this arguement. All i want is an admin to decide wether Adamrce was right to remove alternate views (and only keep bbc opinions of the rules of warefare in islam), i dont have anything else to say--Misconceptions2 (talk) 00:34, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

    Also AdamRce, i will consider this issue resolved if you just tell me what is wrong with my edits. Is it that i dont add any secondary sources, is it that all my sources are unreliable... from your point of view? What is it that makes u remove the edits, and what do i have to do, such that, you wont remove the edits of the alternate views on the rules of warfare?--Misconceptions2 (talk) 00:52, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

    We're not here to satisfy ourselves, but should all work together to satisfy the readers. You and another editor had a couple claims on me, and a third user called my sources "western pop" (even though I had Arabic sources and lived in the Middle-East for a long time, too). I've stopped editing for three days waiting for this claim to close. I already explained my points here, so we should wait for an admin's decision. Keeping the discussion going will just slow things down, I guess. I have 300 pages on my watch-list, so each day is a disaster for me to follow-up. All points are clear here and I hope an admin jumps in soon :). I know that I'm already unblocked, but I just don't want to keep editing if I was doing anything wrong. I already learned my lesson about the edit war and double-checked how to avoid it. Peace everyone and good luck AdvertAdam 04:21, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

    request for page freeze , with sourced content i added

    I talked to an admin on live chat and they suggested that i should request a page freeze, including the content i added on the alternate view. on the rules of warefare

    Will any admins consider? I would close this AN/I, if Adamrce would just tell me what i have to do such that he wont remove the content i added. i already asked the question above, but user avoided question--Misconceptions2 (talk) 15:40, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

    Either, I'm not speaking English, or you're not reading English.
    I avoided your last question for one simple reason; I've answered it already: two times here, two times on your talkpage (where you deleted them), two times on the article's talkpage, and I think another time on another article's discussion page. You gave your side of the story and I gave mine, so I was asking for an admin to comment and thought that keeping the same repeated discussion going will slow things down.
    I'll repeat for the last time. I suggested that we can open a soapbox to work on that edit and link the soapbox to the discussion page, because it's a large content and any error is misleading to the readers. Those edits might take some time to get ordered. It really is as simple as that. You never commented nor listened to my suggestions. ~ AdvertAdam 17:30, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

    I have already discussed with you enough, no need for soap box. you will keep argueing with me. just tell everyone (or if you already have, please repeat), what i must do, such that you wont revert my edits. Just tell me what you find wrong with my edits ! (also i have been told that the AN/I will take 14 days at least to settle, so stick around for next 10 days please)--Misconceptions2 (talk) 21:14, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

    A soapbox is a place where we can both make edits without misleading readers, and it can be under your control (on your account) while inviting editors to join with us. If you don't like it, fine. I have a lot of contribution to do, which I will continue. This topic can be discussed here till it's done, if that's what you want; even though we won't be able to insert any content here.
    These are primary sources, based on what many editors told you before (not just me). Therefore, we need to summarize it fairly, not just pick what you like. What I had in mind, is to work on each source at a time. You can add the picky sentences you love, then I need to add a summary regarding the reasons for the war (as explanation in my first edit in the "Requesting an opinion on the procedures" section above. I also have to mention that each book doesn't represent the whole sector of Islam, like Hanaffi, as each book only represents a single scholars' opinion. So, there's many books for each sect, as told to you by another user, too. I'm just trying to make you aware of the things that you misunderstand, because you're not a Muslim nor have any experiences in Muslim sources (in my opinion). I know you're gonna say that you supplied secondary source, but your inserted quotations are from a primary source; so we need to be double careful! Take care ~ AdvertAdam 03:53, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

    Who said they are all primary sources , can you tell me. Also, why wont you tell me whats wrong with my edits, you just said i pick out sentences i like. the section was about rules of warfare. so i took the rules of warfare from the books (was i supposed to take out other non related quotes???). all sources except 1, where secondary (if you had checked above). anyway, i will be re adding the rules of warfare, you can add reasons. which you said you want to do. and i will see if you remove it--Misconceptions2 (talk) 10:58, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

    Question about Suggest a Bot

    Hi, I just received an email from this bot that makes no sense to me. Clicking on difs that are in the email is removing items from my watchlist. Are anyone else receiving this email? I have asked the person Nettrom about this email plus I informed them of this AN/i report here. Something just doesn't seem right about the email. Why didn't s/he just talk to me on my user page about the changes being requested? I will send the email to any administrator who request it. Thank you in advance, --CrohnieGal 12:24, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

    I'm a little confused... what was the email about? The Bot shouldn't be sending email (having checked it's request for approval), but I haven't seen anyone else mention it. --Errant 12:30, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
    Would you like me to send it to you? I thought the same thing. Something is weird about this since it says it's changing my page and some other things. I'll email it to you if you would like. --CrohnieGal 12:40, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
    Yes, mail it :) --Errant 12:51, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
    Ok it's sent to you. I'm kind of freaked out about this so I appreciate your help. Thank you, --CrohnieGal 13:04, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
    Aha! I know what this is. It is not the bot sending you email. The Mediawiki system has an inbuilt ability to send you an email notification whenever your talk page is edited :) This has not previously been enabled on Misplaced Pages but it was enabled the other day. The setting defaulted to "on" for everyone. If you want you can turn it off by going to preferences and de-selecting the relevant option at the bottom of the page. The links at the bottom, including the one which unwatched the page for you are just helper links left over from the fact that it is using a "watchlist notification" template. --Errant 13:05, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
    I don't remember checking this but I assume you mean this, E-mail me when my user talk page is changed . I unchecked it and appreciate your help a lot. I thought someone might be messing with me and I am so relieved that's not the case. I know I'm supposed to assume good faith but when I received this it was hard for me to do. I am sorry now that I didn't assume good faith about it. Thank you again for you help. I feel really stupid now for freaking out over it. Thanks again, --CrohnieGal 13:41, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
    If it's any consolation, I was puzzled when I got the same emails - "What's this stuff that I didn't ask for?" I eventually found the checkbox in the prefs and disabled it, and assumed I must have switched it on some time ;-) -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 13:52, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
    Chronie; no worries, it was enabled automatically for everyone (I'm not sure who decided that). But has not been widely announced - hence confusion. I have pinged the foundation-l list to find out if there are plans to make people aware of this change. --Errant 13:54, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
    (edit conflict)I was also thrown for a loop when I received one of these yesterday. Thus, Chronie and I are not going to be the only ones who are wondering what is going on. Might it be a good idea to add one of those message boxes like we do when donation time or voting for arbcom comes around letting editors know what has occurred. It might also be worth considering not defaulting new features to "on" when they are added - another message box could inform users about new functions added and let us decide whether we want to use it or not. Of course, these are just a suggestions and my thanks to ErrantX for clearing things up. After seeing the edit conflict I see that you have also already started some of the process that I am suggesting EX but I thought I would post this anyway for others to see - thanks againMarnetteD | Talk 13:59, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
    Can somebody please wp:TROUT the person who made the decision to turn this on by default? Yoenit (talk) 14:02, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
    MediaWiki_talk:Watchlist-details#Talk_emails --Errant 14:15, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
    Just checking in... FYI, I had a look at SuggestBot's source code, and it has no ability whatsoever to email anybody, at the moment. I'm happy to see this got sorted out, understand the confusion. Cheers, Nettrom (talk) 15:15, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
    That was uncharitable ...and unwise. Skomorokh 14:59, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
    Hmm. I think turning it on was really not a good idea. How many emails? How many electrons needlessly displaced? What strain on our servers? Drmies (talk) 17:22, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
    See my post above, under the topic "Possible bug in archives?". I think that the slow performance of the site might coincide with turning on this feature. In fact I'm almost certain of it. -- Atama 17:26, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
    Good call. It's really, really aggravating. Drmies (talk) 17:36, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
    Well I'm in favour FWIW, beats the hacky method I was using before to get notifications to my Gmail. But anyways; I added a watchlist notice because that seems to be the simplest way to tell people --Errant 17:53, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
    Nothing wrong with having the feature. Engaging it and defaulting to "on" was a poor choice, oing so without notifying anyone about it was troutable. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:19, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
    But am I the only one whose pedia is not wikying as fast as it ought to? I get stuck just about every other edit and have to reload. Drmies (talk) 18:06, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
    No, I have to stop and reload long pages (such as this one) before they come in all the way. Annoying. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:10, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    It's bad enough that I'm probably going to use Misplaced Pages very little, if at all, until they get around to fixing it. This is getting ridiculous. Technical problems, I can live with; long-term unacknowledged technical problems are really frustrating. -- Atama 00:11, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    That's why we are all happy that a long wanted feature like email notifications were enabled at last. Nemo 19:01, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

    <--I don't need email notifications, personally. BTW, a couple of weeks ago there were recurring technical problems, and I PayPalled $20 to the foundation--I thought that would have taken care of it. Anyway, I would like to know if these issues are related. Drmies (talk) 19:17, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

    Wait, you !work for Misplaced Pages, and you pay them?? Where can I get in on this racket? As Yakov would say, "What a country!!". --64.85.221.213 (talk) 00:18, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

    Procedural keeps of AfDs by blp-banned user (me)

    All the open AFDs were closed by Spartaz. They can be renominated. Our work here is done. Spartaz 15:15, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


    It turned out that I could not have started all those AfDs on non-notable playmates because my BLP ban forbids me. While I plead to have done that in ignorance of the extent of the ban (I though I should only avoid directly editing bios, and after some time I even forget about that), I am open to whatever is the proper penalization for my bad memory/process-knowledge.

    That said, this thread is to bring to wider attention that it's been argued on many nominations (that have ben open of almost 20 days now) that they should be closed as procedural keep (example here and here). Some good number of them were indeed closed after such arguments by admin User:Cirt (examples here and here) and some others by non-admin User:Baseball Watcher (examples here and here). There are other playmate AfDs closings by the same non-admin that deserve some scrutinizing, as they seem based on vote counting, but this is another issue.

    Unsurprisingly, some of those AfD that were closed after 20 days of discussion as a procedural keep are already being restarted with the proper bureaucracy, like with Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Amy Miller (model) (2nd_nomination).

    Well, I was reluctant to bring this to this board since such threads are always such an opportunity to attack me. But I believe the matter should not pass under the radar. Let's face the consequences.

    Are those procedural keeps good to the project? --Damiens.rf 14:40, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

    • Question: unless the AfDs meet the criteria for a WP:SPEEDYKEEP, is there any "procedural" reason to treat them any differently from any other AfD? I.e. is there any policy basis for the "procedural keep" argument? HrafnStalk(P) 14:53, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
      • Usually if there are other participants supporting deletion, then the nominator's status (e.g., topic bans, sockpuppets, etc.) is not sufficient by itself to close the nomination. But this case is complicated by the mass nomination approach that has already been debated; if there are nominations sitting open for extended periods without drawing much discussion beyond "procedural keep" complaints, then that is probably the best close in those particular cases. For any with robust discussion, then the nominator's mistake should be disregarded. --RL0919 (talk) 14:58, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
    • Was your mass nomination of BLP articles, while banned from editing BLPs, good to the project? - No. You reaped what you sowed, Damiens, to the detriment of all.--Milowent 15:03, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
    • Comment: I have no opinion on whether they should be kept, but I would like to state my opposition to any blocks on this editor as a result of his violation of his topic ban, as I believe any blocks would be punitive because he made a good faith effort to bring the incident to everybody's attention upon realizing his violation. Kansan (talk) 15:05, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
    • Non-admin comment: Damiens' honesty is refreshing, as is his willingness to accept responsibility for his actions. But I have to ask, given the time span between the AfD noms and this commentary, has the horse already left the barn? My own 2p is to WP:LETITGO based on the timeframe, and perhaps issue an official WP:MINNOW (since by the sound of it he already trouted himself). But that's just me. --Alan the Roving Ambassador (talk) 15:12, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
    • "While I plead to have done that in ignorance of the extent of the ban (I though I should only avoid directly editing bios, and after some time I even forget about that),". Oh come on, it definitely seems like you forgot about the ban itself, hence the continuing edits to BLPs in general before the reminder even if to enforce policies. This link seems to be an admission that you just forgot about the ban, not its extent. Morbidthoughts (talk) 15:16, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
      In regards to "hence the continuing edits to BLPs ", half the examples are not living people. --Damiens.rf 21:20, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
      I copied and pasted the wrong links since I had several tabs open to review your work. were the other two I meant. That's four too many BLP subject edits after your AfD barrage. Morbidthoughts (talk) 00:15, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
    • I think a block is in order. Damiens got a topic ban. He had a bot set up so that such notices automatically disappear from his talk page within days. He then evaded the topic ban until another user pointed it out (i.e. he only admitted it after he was caught). He then posts this notice here, which I think is against at least the spirit of the ban. Since he does not seem able to abide by topic bans, he should be given a ban he cannot ignore.
      • On 7 April Damiens was given a topic ban.
      • On 16 April a bot archives the topic ban notice from Damiens's talk page. This has the happy effect of allowing him to ignore the block, because most editors won't know that he ever had one.
      • On 28 April, he contravenes the topic ban by proposing huge numbers of pages for deletion.
      • In the deletion discussions he again contravenes the topic ban by posting rebuttal arguments. (See for example , , .)
      • On 12 May User:SlimVirgin pointed out on Damiens's talk page that he has broken the topic ban by editing the Jessica Valenti article. Further discussion makes it clear that Damiens broke the topic ban by initiating all those deletion discussions and participating in them.
      • Today he posts a notice here, asking for some of the deletion discussions he initiated that resulted in a keep to be 'scrutinised' (i.e. to have the 'keep decision' reversed). Notice that he only wants the ones that resulted in a keep 'scrutinised'; he does not want the ones did not go his way 'scrutinised'. Posting a notice here asking for this is at the very least against the spirit of the topic ban.--Toddy1 (talk) 15:38, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
        • I am baffled by the claim, in the last bulleted item, that for a user to inquire about the consequences of his admitted violation of a topic ban is in some way approaches being a violation of the topic ban. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 16:22, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
        • (edit conflict)No, he's only asking about the AfDs that were closed as "procedural keep", regardless of the merits of the discussion. I don't see him challenging anything that got a full discussion and was closed on the merits.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:25, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
          • Were any explicitly closed as procedural keep? Or would that extend to the ones that close keep after procedural keep rationales were presented in the discussions? Monty845 16:53, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
            They continue to be (see here). Even when the closer do not explicitly mentions the procedural close, many afds that were repeated relisted were then close after one or two procedural keep votes.
            I believe we either do a procedural keep to them all or disregard the procedural keep votes altogether. The current situation is not consistent. --Damiens.rf 21:20, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
    • Non-admin question: Is a topic-banned editor allowed to remove the ban notice from his or her talk page? If not, shouldn't bot-archiving of the talk page be forbidden for the duration of the ban? I don't ask this to throw sharp rocks at Damiens, but to ask whether this should be stipulated as part of future topic bans. --NellieBly (talk) 16:01, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
    WP:REMOVE speaks to that...if I'm reading the policy correctly,notices regarding active sanctions may NOT be removed. --Alan the Roving Ambassador (talk) 16:18, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
    The section states that removing a ban notice is not allowed, but it says nothing about archiving a ban notice. In fact, the first paragraph of that section states that editors may remove comments but archiving is preferable. This implies that archiving and removal aren't considered the same thing. My concern is that ban notices aren't just there for admins but for us regular editors, who might not even look for an archive let alone check it. I know this sounds like epic wikilawyering, but I wish WP:REMOVE was a bit clearer on the matter. --NellieBly (talk) 16:37, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
    I have proposed a change to WP:REMOVE at Wikipedia_talk:User_pages#Removal of comments, notices, and warnings.--Toddy1 (talk) 08:23, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
    • First, in response to the issue raised of a potential block for the violation, I think at this point doing so would be punitive rather aimed at preventing additional disruption. Further whether Damiens.rf misunderstood the scope of the ban or forgot about it is also immaterial, as both would result in good faith editing in violation of it. As to the substance of the deletion discussions, while the nominator is not given any special weight in the closing of a deletion discussion, in most cases the nominating statement will frame the debate, and will thus have a large influence on the subsequent discussion. The nominating statements in these cases where not blurb "no evidence of notability, so delete it" type statements, but instead were relatively strong arguments. Combined with the mass nomination format, I continue to think the articles were much more likely to be deleted as a result of the strategic decisions made in the nomination statement and process, and so that they were made in violation of the topic ban is specially relevant. While I haven't done so, as it would probably be as disruptive as the original nominating spree, I think any of the articles that were deleted could be rightly subject to deletion review in light of the topic ban revelation. In fairness if we are to review the discussions that resulted in keep, we should also review the ones that ended in delete before the ban was known. Monty845 16:53, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
    • Comment: I would agree that a block is in order here due to violation of the topic ban by mass-creating AFDs. -- Cirt (talk) 17:03, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
    • Strongly Oppose Block Blocks must prevent damage to the encyclopedia. If the ban on BLP contributions is circumvented again then a block would be in order. But as the user is not actively proposing additional BLPs for deletion and was nice enough to confess their mistake at ANI I'd say we're far better of here with a WP:TROUT and a directive to avoid BLPs in all sense of the word until such time as the topic ban is overturned. To block now would be a punitive punishment, not a prevention against damage. N419BH 18:44, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
    • Oppose block. While Damiens apparently violated the topic ban, none of the BLP edits he made since the ban was imposed involve either aspect of the conduct which led to the ban -- edit warring and adding inadequately sourced potentially derogatory content. If a further sanction is to be imposed (which I am not arguing is appropriate), it should be limited to resetting the ban to run for three months from May 12, when the problem was reported, rather than three months from its initial date. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 18:57, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
    • Block User was under a topic ban and has showed that, not only cannot he be trusted by the WP community to do what he's supposed to do, he will actively delete notices from his user talk page in violation of WP:REMOVE. While I commend him for coming forward now (and I do think that should carry some weight in his block), a block is in order to prevent future misbehavior. — BQZip01 —  23:07, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

    Proposed Topic Ban

    Proposed

    That the topic ban be formally extended to include deletion discussions. This could be recorded in a subpage of the user's userpage, and protected, so as to avoid forgetfulness in the future. -- Cirt (talk) 17:13, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

    • Comment. What damage to the encyclopedia is a block going to prevent? The editor has already acknowledged the breach, and brought it here for discussion - and, incidentally, no one else noticed it in the three weeks since this latest spree of AFDs came forward. I'd support the idea that nominating a BLP for deletion is a violation of the topic ban - if it wasn't clear before, it is now. The next AFD the editor creates on a BLP, block'em. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 17:50, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
    Nobody noticed his breaking the topic ban for three weeks because he had a bot archive the topic ban notice out the way. I don't think that is an ethical way to behave.
    One benefit of a block is that it will help Damiens' memory. There is also the fairness issue; why should he be allowed to to go on crusades against things he does not like in contravention of a block? If he is allowed to do this, then why should anybody abide by inconvenient topic bans. People deserve to be treated fairly. Remember Misplaced Pages is sometimes very harsh in treating well-meaning but annoying people.--Toddy1 (talk) 18:30, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
    I believe that the comment about "an ethical way to behave" is rather inappropriate. As Nelliebly points out, archiving talk page comments is different from removing them; more important, the automatic archiving code was not added to the page in any way that facilitated removing the comment involved from display, but had been in place for quite some time before the topic ban was imposed. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 19:12, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
    Blocking is only to be used to stop future disruptive behavior by the editor, it seems clear Damiens.rf understands the scope of the ban now, and so any block would not be consistent with policy. It is routine for someone not to get blocked due to staleness. Monty845 18:37, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
    I don't see other people who have topic bans or interaction bans or other restrictions list them either, so I think it's accepted to archive them. Maybe it shouldn't be, but it is. --OpenFuture (talk) 18:40, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
    I'm sure his memory will be effectively refreshed well enough by keeping a reminder on his user talk page and by going through this process. I simply don't think a block here can be sufficiently justified as preventative, especially given that the relevant incident happened long enough ago. Kansan (talk) 18:53, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

    Would this be happening if the editor were someone other than Damiens.rf?

    While I wish to make it clear that I am not condoning Damiens.rf's actions or edits, it seems that some people here may have lost perspective. From what I can tell, Damiens.rf received a temporary ban on BLP editing because they were persistently adding "porn star" to Kira Reed. Although I think the term itself has negative connotations, it is an easy matter to establish that Kira Reed did perform in hardcore porn and was quite open about that fact (see this interview for example). Then Damiens.rf is roundly chastised for a multiple deletion request of Playboy Playmates, despite the fact that there has been ample time since the change to WP:PORNBIO to bolster the articles of any former Playmates who are independently notable. Most recently, editors were voting to keep articles which clearly failed WP:GNG simply because they did not like the nomination or the nominator. While Damiens.rf may be pursuing some kind of agenda with these actions, it appears that others are the ones who are violating the intent of our guidelines and policies. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 17:59, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

    I don't see this as getting particularly personal insofar as that he is being singled out (the ANI community does, after all, normally hold community bans in high regard), so, yes, I think it would be happening if this were another editor. As I've stated above, I don't think a block is necessary, but I see no examples here of others violating our guidelines and policies as you state. Kansan (talk) 18:11, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
    Yes, that was a mistaken overstatement which I have now corrected. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 18:14, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
    As a point of clarification, it was a BLP discretionary sanction, not a consensus based community ban. Monty845 18:17, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

    Unfork the issue

    While my behavior and any punitive/preventive action may me discussed in the above thread-forks, I suggest we concentrate here on what do we do about the procedural keeps themselves. Options seems to be:

    1. To procedurally keep all playmate AfDs I started.
      This includes undeleting any article deleted due to these AfDs.
    2. To procedurally keep only the playmates AfDs that are not yet closed.
    3. To undo all procedural keeps and let the AfDs to run.
    4. Do not undo the procedural keeps but also prevent any further procedural keeps on this batch of AfDs.
    5. Some other option that I can't think of.

    I believe 2 and 4, although the easiest to implement, are inconsistent. I too involved to have a say on my preferred solution without being bashed beyond what I can take. --Damiens.rf 21:20, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

    Can you identify some AfDs that were explicitly closed as procedural keep? The two you provided as examples when you opened this discussion, Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Amy Miller (model) and Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Stephanie Glasson were both closed as keep without additional comment. I personally support option #6: let existing closes stand, and let the remaining ones be closed without intervention from AN/I. Monty845 21:25, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
    How is you #6 not the same as #4? I'll dig some of the AfDs and post them here. --Damiens.rf 21:29, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
    Number 4 intervenes and prevents procedural closes going further, while #6 leaves things to end without intervention. Monty845 21:48, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
    So #6 is "Do nothing about previous procedural closes and do nothing about future closes (procedural or not)". Right? Simply ignore this as a non-issue? We had more than 10 contentious AfDs closed by a non-admin and we just leave it as is? --Damiens.rf 16:53, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
    Stop pushing for the "more than 10 contentious AfDs closed by a non-admin" to be reviewed.--Toddy1 (talk) 17:10, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
    Why? (Not that I don't like to blindly fulfill your desires, but...) --Damiens.rf 17:15, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
    I don't see the big problem. If you believe any of them were improperly closed, why not just open a new AfDs (gradually) when your topic ban expires? Admins aren't supposed to be given special deference, (the deference they receive comes from the fact that most admins are respected members of the community, but the admin bit shouldn't really change that) if closing the AfD didn't require the admin tool-set, then the fact that non-admins closed a number is unremarkable. Technically, the non-admin closure guidance says all you need to do is find an admin willing to re-open, but I wouldn't support that here. Monty845 18:07, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
    Of course I plan to relist all problematic AfDs as soon as I can. That's exactly what I was trying to avoid here. But nevermind. Let's close this thread and wait for new drama in July.
    In a related note, you may be interested in Misplaced Pages:NAC, that says "Administrators close most deletion discussions; regular editors may close some non-controversial discussions". --Damiens.rf 18:14, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
    "Of course I plan to relist all problematic AfDs as soon as I can." Isn't that part of the problem? — BQZip01 —  06:15, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    How so? I do believe there were really bad closings among them. --Damiens.rf 14:46, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    Another option would be for an uninvolved admin close all of these as tainted and start new AfDs. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 21:40, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
    • I believe the best option would be for Damiens to say not a word further on this issue. The closers have been pretty fair in closing these, based on the individual discussions.--Milowent 21:01, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
      • In some AfDs, I have to disagree. But I can't do that before July. --Damiens.rf 22:28, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
        • Since many of these bios have been around for 6 years or more, and are causing no harm, I think we can handle that.--Milowent 00:14, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
          • No harm is not a good reason for keeping bios. My grandma bio's would surely cause no harm (note: she was not a playmate), but still it would be deleted.
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    User:Hari7478 racial slurs

    I have monited the above users aggressive editing style and stumbled by chance over his/her edits on another users talk page he repeatidly calls me a "paki" a racial slur and he is being supported by other editors of the same agenda (POV against Pakistan) I would be grateful if someone could tell them about the race policy of wikipedia (if it has one) Im not sure if this is the place to report racial abuse if it is not please provide a clear link to the place regards Ichi Ichigo0987765 (talk) 22:44, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

    I believe it comes under WP:NPA, specifically here. Certainly in the UK, "Paki" is a seriously offensive racist slur: see List of ethnic slurs#Paki. I think this is the right place to report it - probably should get at least a warning or probably more from an admin. DeCausa (talk) 23:17, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
    This is indeed the right place. Are there more diffs than this one? I'll place an NPA-2 warning on their user page, but if that's all there is, then a warning at this moment is about as far as we can go, I think. Anyone, feel free to jump in and rv me. Drmies (talk) 04:31, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
    How about you both quit goading each other and have an actual discussion... this thread had very little business here. This is a simple insult thread. Grow up. When this gets actually disruptive let the rest of the community know. Shadowjams (talk) 06:24, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
    No, that's quite wrong. Racist language is in an entirely different category to the diff you posted. DeCausa (talk) 13:16, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
    Eh, how is one supposed to read the comment in the diff cited by Shadowjams, "A paki? hmmm seems our little group of Indians are getting racial time for some advice from admins :-)" I really have no idea what "racial time for some advice from admins" means, but "little group of Indians" has no place here either. Ichigo, I'm giving you an NPA warning also, and I hope that both of you can knock it off and grow up. That I criticized Hari's comment doesn't mean you get a free pass. Now, if these two can cut it out, we can close this; thanks to Shadowjams for checking in. Drmies (talk) 18:12, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
    OK, both editors have been warned now, and on top of that Ichigo is blocked for edit warring on Reactions to the death of Osama bin Laden. What fun. Drmies (talk) 18:15, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
    "Little group of Indians" etc may not have any place here, but "Paki" is a straightforward racist epithet. It's on a different level. DeCausa (talk) 18:27, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
    Not quite. When used as a racial epithet in Britain "paki" means "South Asian". It is indeed a racial term, not a national one. Used as an abbreviation of Pakistani (as opposed to 'Indian') it is arguably no longer a racial term. If 'Aussie' and 'Brit' are not insulting as abbreviations of 'Australian' and 'Briton', then it's problematic to always label an analagous abbreviation of 'Pakistani' as an insult. We surely have to take context of use into account (and ironically 'Paki-stan' means 'pure-country', so 'Paki' literally means 'pure'). Paul B (talk) 12:42, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

    Ganas article and talk page

    Please see Ganas article and Ganas talk page. Marelstrom (talk) continues to substitute properly referenced material with unverified and trivial statements, and attempts to out Eroberer (talk). Please consider protecting the 429492686 revision of the article. Eroberer (talk) 02:41, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

    Ganas is communitarian group in Staten Island, New York that has an interesting history to say the least. My concern is that over the past 6-7 months we have been having a string of SPA accounts most vocal being (Eroberer (talk · contribs)) who has strong dislike of Ganas. Eroberer's dislike of Ganas has resulted in alot of POV-Pushing, behavior is relatively civil with established editors but down right aggressive with any one they disagree with. The most recent incident was an outing that was just oversighted this morning (Well my time at least) where a new editor said made an accusation about Eroberer which amplifies my concerns. The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 14:03, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

    I encourage action on Eroberer aggressive behavior torward new editors

    The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 22:37, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

    I am willing to look for references to any of my contributions as needed. --Marelstrom (talk) 23:09, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

    I would like ResidentAnthropologist to stop harassing and defaming me. I think I have good reason to be offended by Marelstrom's reckless accusations. I have several times asked Marelstrom to investigate WP policies but they have ignored me. I am only trying to prevent users who refuse to familiarize themselves and/or comply with long-standing policies from vandalizing and edit-warring. No one else seems willing to do that, though ResidentAnthropologist clearly has more power here than I, his actions are only to oppose me. Eroberer (talk) 11:42, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    I have attempted to address content concerns extensively with you. Your battle ground mentality and disrespect for the very policies unless they advance your agenda. Your over aggressive attitude with new editors is counter productive to collaborative editing. The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 18:27, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

    Philippine TV Vandal

    Welcome everyone, I created Misplaced Pages:Long-term abuse/Philippine TV Vandal for consensus. I just want to report that a cross-wiki vandal readacted - ErrantX that was blocked from enwiki, transferred other wikis after I seek assistance in rangeblocking his/her IP addresses there. The vandal is posting hoax information regarding Philippine television and has an editing pattern that is easy to trace. The said vandal currently uses the IP ranges 121.54.0.0/16 and 180.194.0.0/16 in this wiki (sample hoax contributions are the Us Girls (Philippine TV program) and the Banahaw Broadcasting Corporation articles).
    I would like to seek the same assistance from the admins here to finally stop his destructive edits, since bots are keep on posting wikilinks in en.wiki pointing here with an article that was created by that vandal. Please see User:WayKurat/Philippine TV vandal regarding this vandal and its editing patterns. Hoping for your swift action regarding this issue. Thanks. --Kungfu2187 (talk) 09:58, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

    Ouch, please do not out even vandals real names/identities on-Wiki. That is a big no-no --Errant 12:18, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
    FYI - Philippine TV Vandal == Gerald Gonzalez. I've redirected the page accordingly. -FASTILY 01:43, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    Please assist User:WayKurat against both Philippine TV Vandal and Gerald Gonzalez and <redacted, again...> ErrantX --Kungfu2187 (talk) 04:58, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    Again. Do not "Out" people. --Errant 10:07, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

    Editor calling me a liar

    I know enforcing non-free image policy won't make me popular in some quarters, but I am not inclined to tolerate being repeatedly called a "liar" and "stupid" by an editor just because I have been removing his bad images . This editor, Kintetsubuffalo (talk · contribs), has a history of aggressive conduct of this sort. I ask fellow administrators for intervention. Fut.Perf. 16:21, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

    If that editor has a history of aggressive conduct, then being called a liar by that editor is not a big deal. The editor is then disqualifying him/herself from being taken serious here. Count Iblis (talk) 16:52, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
    That is quite contrary to how it actually works in my experience. Anyhow, calling somebody a liar isn't nice. --OpenFuture (talk) 18:00, 17 May 2011 (UTC) (uninvolved non-admin)
    Given them a warning, I'll be keeping an eye on them too. 20:50, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
    Update . No further comment. Fut.Perf. 12:07, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    Are we really saying that people with a history of aggressive conduct get to continue their aggressive conduct because it's expected of them? 216.93.212.245 (talk) 17:59, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

    213.151.218.137's actions

    I'm at a loss over here. The IP user with IP 213.151.218.137 has begun reverting all of User:Hobartimus' edits on various pages (Béla IV of Hungary, Máté Csák, Francis II Rákóczi, Adam František Kollár and Matthias Bel). Now since this is quite reminiscent of User:Bizovne's actions, in normal circumstances I'd ask for an SPI and that'd be it. GeoIP however indicates that the IP belongs to the Banská Bystrica region (the city proper and possibly most of the villages around it as well). This and the fact that Hobartimus has previously changed User:Wladthemlat's edits on the articles above leads me to believe that it might be Wladthemlat's "bad hand" sock. It's also possible that it's a "new" user from BB with malicious intentions. The problem however with this IP (besides that BB is a city with a population of over 100k) is the fact that it's from an IP range that's dynamically assigned by Orange to their "fibernet" subscribers (I get assigned IPs beginning with 213 when using such connection as well). The IP's edit history also shows that it's been used by various other users with (fairly) diverse interests in the past. This time it's been assigned to a malicious user however, but blocking the IP won't prevent the user from proceeding (he'd just reset his ONT to get a brand new IP assigned to him). Therefore maybe a warning might be in place for it. -- CoolKoon (talk) 22:21, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
    EDIT: Just to make it clear: it isn't the fact that this IP user has reverted Hobartimus what I consider to be the problem. It's the nature of these reverts, such as making ill-faithed reverts look like "vandalism" reverts and the typical Slovak nationalist summary at some of the edits in the likes of "you're not in Hungary, and hence you can't do this and that (or possibly anything at all)". Extending this "way of thinking" to EN WP was Bizovne's specialty up until now (this was the main reason I suspected him in the first place), but the evidence detailed above goes contrary to this. -- CoolKoon (talk) 01:37, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

    NOTE: You might want to take a look at the related SPI regarding this user as well. CoolKoon (talk) 20:32, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

    User:Iqinn

    Disruptive editing. Iquinn has single-handedly decided that bin Laden was "assassinated" and that his death was an "Extrajudicial killing". He's clearly pushing his own POV in spite of consensus otherwise. While I applaud him for participating vociferously on the Osama bin Laden talk page, his participation has been plagued by partial quotes that distort sources and outright misquotes. Iquinn has been blocked repeatedly in the last few months for his edit warring, and I suspect we're up against that again now. as a result, I'd like to propose an extended block if not an out-right community ban. Since I'm the only admin involved at this point, I thought it best to bring this repeat problem editor to the group's attention. Rklawton (talk) 05:19, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

    Pardon me. I had a total of one revert on the article now way what's however that would be edit warring. I do not think that that is the right way for you to get you favorite version of the article. IQinn (talk) 05:26, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    I see Iqinn added the category and reverted only once. He has since been editing the talk page instead. I frankly don't see why this is worth bringing here. Kansan (talk) 05:32, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    Once again Iqinn has misquoted me. This is described as "Disruptive editing" and not edit warring. The disruptive part revolves around repeatedly and deliberately misquoting sources and other editors (namely me) during discussions. His edits to the article (two so far) can be described as vandalism given that he's aware of our policies regarding reliable sources and POV pushing - and given his tendentious edit history over the last couple of months. Rklawton (talk) 05:35, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

    Seems like Rklawton has a personal problem with the user, and that this is something better suited to RFC/U, rather than ANI. -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 05:37, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

    I only just "met" him in the last few hours when he tried adding the category "Extrajudicial killings" to the bin Laden article - and more recently changing a subheader to "Assassination". Look at his block history. This isn't a personal problem, this is vandal fighting. Rklawton (talk) 05:39, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    Please do not describe edits of other users as vandalism or POV pushing just you disagree with them. Looking on your numerous reverts some might think that you were POV pushing. IQinn (talk) 05:42, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    It's POV pushing when your claims aren't supported by the facts or sources and your views are in the minority - yet you take it upon yourself to change the article anyway and then repeatedly misquote sources and me in the talk page - and here. Rklawton (talk) 05:44, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    2 editors on one side and 2 on the other side is not really the minority and you were regularly quoting out of context. IQinn (talk) 05:46, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    That's not true at all. Many editors have been working for weeks on the "Death of" article to build sources and reach consensus. Your unilateral edits fly in the face of all this work. And the other editor who sides with you has a recent block record similar to yours. My reverts have been oriented around keeping the article in line with the working consensus, and that's the opposite of POV pushing. Rklawton (talk) 05:51, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    Both of you should take this elsewhere. I'd recommend asking for some sort of dispute resolution on the article talk page. -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 05:53, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    @Rklawton -- Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you had a longstanding relationship with Iqinn. I still feel, however, that this issue seems more suited to RFC/U since there are no immediate problems requiring administrator intervention. If you feel that Iqinn is a problematic editor in general, RFC/U is the forum for that sort of thing. Also, please provide diffs, and be careful not to inappropriately label edits vandalism. While his edits might be problematic (I'm not making a judgement on this one way or the other), they don't seem to be in violation of WP:Vandalism, which is more for things like adding "fdafkdaskfjdkjfdjkf" or "Osama haz big penis" to an article. -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 05:53, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    • Agree with Rklawton here. A review of prior talk page posts indicates extensive discussion previously of the very same issue, with clear consensus. Iquinn's editing is best described as tendentious, and we do block disruptive editing. I suggest that he simply knock it off.--Epeefleche (talk) 14:55, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

    User:TVFAN24

    TVFAN24 has been on ANI's radar a couple times, previously for violation of SOCK, among other things, one of which being POINTed editing and going against consensus. TVFAN24 was put on probation and mentorship by User:Wgfinley, who was serving as her mentor. The behavior that got her blocked in the first place began again, tendentious editing on television station, soap opera and other articles. User:Deconstructhis tried to curb this behavior on the television side, but TVFAN24 filed a MedCom request, with pure lies saying Deconstructhis was the only editor with a problem. Actually it is consensus, but TVFAN24 was asking to go around that. The MedCom request was declined per that. Her mentor though considered it a content dispute and supported TVFAN24's editing. Tonight was the final straw though. TVFAN24 asked on my talk page, if it was "ok and not against policy if I start making articles for every person to those few pages for ones that do not have one and then if they can be added back to the list." Of course, this was completely POINTed editing and creation of non-notable articles to circumvent consensus. TVFAN24 created two articles, both of which are sub-stubs, both of which don't meet the GNG and both of which are meant to circumvent consensus. I CSD'd both as A7. Since her mentor, Wgfinley, is unwilling or unable to help and reign his mentee in, I am requesting that TVFAN24's behavior be dealt with here at ANI. I would like the indef block (or even a 24 hour one) put back in place while the ANI thread is ongoing. This behavior needs to stop and stop now. - NeutralhomerTalk07:54, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

    I have notified all three user's named above. - NeutralhomerTalk08:01, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    TVFAN's probation was a year ago for socking, I haven't seen any socking issues arise in this time and I don't see what that has to do with the issue at hand. I mentored her on that issue, I'm not her father that you can come tattle on her. You accused TVFAN of tendentious editing, she filed a mediation request as a way to work out the dispute with you and others. You didn't feel it was in good faith and refused.
    TVFAN obviously has an interest in this area, that applies to a lot of people on WP. She created the Goode article, you had a a speedy delete request on it in 14 minutes and that request was processed two hours later. As I told you previously, the line on hounding is a precarious one, you are close to crossing it (14 minutes?). She has been compiling lists of some of these personnel, in some cases, like this one, she adds them to a list and they don't have an article so you object if she makes one. In others where they are added to the list without an article you revert it incorrectly calling it vandalism and then revert her again without any reason or discussion on the talk page . Which is it?
    You are content to bring up her block of a year ago that has nothing to do with this issue yet you've been previously blocked and on probation for reverting content disputes and calling them vandalism as you have here. You're choosing to take the conflict to other venues and escalate it instead of discussing it working out any differences. You've mocked her for any attempt to try to talk to you about it . You and Deconstructthis have a position about these TV station articles (which you are entitled to have) that is not held by TVFAN and others (which they are entitled to have) - it is the age old WP:CRUFT argument. You refused mediating the matter and are now coming to AN/I for more would appear to be forum shopping.
    Please take a closer look at WP:CON, in particular the section on using talk pages to work out disputes and issues. If you have an issue with notability of something that's posted then by all means put that on the talk page, give that person some time to address the issue (preferably more than 14 minutes) and if he/she doesn't then put it up for deletion as you have. If she created a massive amount of stubs on these issues I would consider that a problem. I don't see two, one of which she had all of two hours to improve on, as a problem. --WGFinley (talk) 13:08, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    Yawn. Anywho, this is what I mean by Wgfinley having no problem with TVFAN24's behavior. Obviously, another mentor needs to be in on this or admins taking over where Wgfinley is apprently unwilling and unable to deal with the matter. - NeutralhomerTalk14:00, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    I see that once again, it appears to me that the onus of responsibility in contending with TVFAN24's continuing editing practices is apparently being construed as some form of personal animus between two or three editors and TVFAN24 and an alleged lack of "prior discussion" on issues. I'd like to suggest that a broad assessment of the situation based on the evidence we have on hand indicates otherwise. In fact, I contend that this editor is wilfully rejecting the outcome of ample prior discussion on adding unreferenced BLP list material, which has occurred here, as well as on their own talk page and the talk page of other editors, the TV station project noticeboard and via the advice of their mentor Wgfinley, who appears to have specifically advised them *not* to engage in editing practices involving the adding of *specifically* this type of unreferenced material to articles. I'd like to address some issues raised by Wgfinley in their above post. Approximately a year ago, after Wgfinley lifted an indefinite block for socking and voluntarily agreed to mentor TVFAN24 on this matter, a number of "sandbox" pages were established so that TVFAN24 would be provided the opportunity to be tutored specifically on the need for providing references when adding BLP material to articles. The pages were created, and the unreferenced material that was being disputed in the TV station articles was transferred to them; with the expectation that references would be created fort he entries, at which point, the entries could be legitimately re-added to the articles. At that time, Wgfinley actively coached TVFAN24 on the need for that kind of support, if BLP list list was material being added and TVFAN24 appears to have freely accepted that condition , as a prerequisite for continuing to edit and openly agreed to only add BLP list material in cases where such referencing was simultaneously provided by them. If you visit those same sandbox lists today, and examine the differences, it appears that, apart from a few minor differences, in my opinion little effort has been made at all to utilize them for their stated original purpose ,,,,, in fact, for the most part they appear to have been mostly ignored by TVFAN24 for that purpose. In January of 2011, TVFAN24 began unilaterally bulk re-adding exactly the same unreferenced BLP material to Chicago area television station articles, without any prior discussion on the relevant article talk pages beforehand at all. Please take note this occurence appears to have transpired while both Wgfinley and myself were on short Wikibreaks at the beginning of the year.,,,. These re-additions were subsequently removed as unreferenced. Recently; in fact just this past weekend, TVFAN24 deemed it appropriate to launch a formal request for mediation in these matters, in an apparent attempt to once again precipitate the opportunity to re-add exactly the same unreferenced materials to these articles. That request was subsequently rejected by the clerk. For those interested, my personal reaction to this filing can be viewed on my talk page. I have clearly made up my own mind on this issue and make no pretense whatsoever to objectivity in the matter; I'm quite content to accept the decision of the community in this regard, as well as accepting any "lumps" I might have coming to me. In closing, I'd like to request that Wgfinley attempt to refrain from "personalizing" this dispute, apart from where the evidence leads and also that "harassment" can take on different forms, *none* of which are acceptable from experienced editors. I'd be happy to answer any questions in regard to these matters from other editors. cheers Deconstructhis (talk) 17:41, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    Apologies for the clumsily composed posting above, I'm really pressed for time today and simply wanted to attempt to contextualize and balance the situation while I had a chance. My opinion is that editing issues surrounding TVFAN24 are an ongoing matter and again in my opinion, that repeatedly having to deal with those issues is a serious waste of time and editing resources. It appears to me that "abetting" these problematic practices is a possible practical concern as well and should be dealt with. cheers Deconstructhis (talk) 18:11, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    I find it curious that both of you have an abundant number of things to say HERE but couldn't do mediation. She even apologized for making these two articles without any prompting from me. Maybe she would learn from mistakes if either of you gave her a chance instead of waiting to pounce within 14 minutes of anything she does. --WGFinley (talk) 19:37, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    Hmmmm...to be straightforward with you, in my opinion this response looks to me like additional diversionary rhetoric and another instance of the creation of what appears to be some sort of "firewall" around the editing practices of the person who you're mentoring. You can choose to compartmentalize the problems surrounding this editor's past practices and attribute the base difficulties to a small number of "other editors", but to do so, I think, ignores the longer view available in the situation; which appears to be continuing to present. In my opinion, TVFAN24's editing history speaks for itself and further, I think in many instances tends toward deliberate obfuscation. A quick scan of the totality of their talk page and the involvement (and rejection) of some of those practices by a number of other editors (including other administrators) appears to indicate that the problems are 'wider' than what you're attempting to convey here today and involve far more than a "14 minute" response time to the posting of a purportedly non-notable sub-stub article or an "apology" that occurred last evening. Just to be clear about that, although you've subsequently lumped me in with Neutralhomer in that regard; a fairer practice might be to try and restrain your criticism to to the relevant party; Neutralhomer is quite capable of speaking for himself. You've made comments in the past regarding your claimed inability to 'rein in' this situation; citing your involvement as TVFAN24's mentor as a rationale for non-action. I can understand aspects of that argument and to be sure, you can't literally stand over their shoulder while they're actually editing; however it seems to me that in your capacity as an administrator, as well as a mentor, it is reasonable for you to completely step aside and allow other administrators to objectively perform their duties as they see fit, without attempting to influence the situation. In my personal estimation, you failed in that respect both last summer and to a lesser extent in late autumn, when you directly and unilaterally overturned the decisions of other administrators in regard to blocks applied against TVFAN24. I can't help but wonder about the "enabling" potentials of those occurrences. I believe, that a further instance of what I'm alleging to be "non-objective intervention" regarding this editor occurred last weekend when; although recusing yourself from the specifics of the mediation request filed by TVFAN24; felt it necessary to recommend on the comment page that the request constituted a 'good issue' for the mediation process itself. Frankly, in my opinion, considering that you yourself are a formal mediation committee member in Misplaced Pages, I think you overstepped and left yourself open to a perception of potential undue influence in the matter. The real question in my mind, is where do we go from here? thank you Deconstructhis (talk) 22:16, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    So open an RfC/U, or go to mediation. Annoying Neutralhomer and creating some articles of questionable notability isn't grounds for a block. Fences&Windows 22:42, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    Creating articles of questionable notability shouldn't be allowed in the first place. I wouldn't create an article about myself, I'm not notable enough to have an article, even if you can find references that say I exist and I do this or that. Unreferenced material, especially that of BLP nature, really bothers me. It degrades what Misplaced Pages should be about... notability and references. Those policies aren't there just for a few editors to follow, they are there for all editors to stick to. That makes Misplaced Pages more trustworthy and accurate. I'm not going to fully dive into this discussion from this point on but I stand with Neutralhomer and Deconstructthis 100 percent. Why should one editor get away with causing so much hubbub, when others are banned indefinitely for one issue? --ḾỊḼʘɴίcảTalkI DX for fun! 00:30, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

    Vandalism by User:Δ

    User:Δ has a troubled history for his habit of content policing (see WP:Administrators'_noticeboard/Δ). He has been trying to get images deleted from Indonesian rupiah and Banknotes of the Indonesian rupiah on the basis of putative 'non-free content overuse', although in fact it appears that all images may in fact be free, and in any case the older ones most certainly are free.

    I tagged images such as this one: as public domain since it was published in 1952 in Indonesia, and according to Indonesian copyright law, the maximum copyright term is 50 years from publication. He has just reverted this with the intent that the files be deleted tomorrow: .

    I notified him on his talk page that he is vandalising the encylopedia by tagging clear public domain images for deletion, see contributions: , and he responded by immediately deleting/archiving my notice and taking no action. He has been reported several times in recent days for breaching 3RR over his content policing actions, and I have no intention in getting into a revert war with him over this, so I am reporting here. Indocopy (talk) 09:08, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

    When you refuse to listen, remove image sourcing and are disruptive you will be reverted. You replaced all of the information on the image description pages with a generic template. I could have gone through and tagged them all as no-source. I have not breached 3RR as you have been told multiple times before. Enforcing NFC is exempt from that. Calling me a vandal is a personal attack which Im brushing off. ΔT 09:16, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    I came very close to handing out some blocks here - Edit Warring is a bright line Δ, you should know that! However - both pages are protected (one from a few days ago), please resolve the dispute on talk pages as to whether any of these images are out of copyright yet, or come up with a compromise non-free usage. --Errant 09:22, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    Ive tried, but been ignored. ΔT 09:23, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    Please show where you have tried and have been ignored, I do not believe this is the case. Indocopy (talk) 09:50, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    @ErrantX, if non-free images are used without a proper rationale, then such a rationale should be provided before the images are (re-)included. Reverting edits without providing that proper rationale first is a form of disruption, and as such exempt from 3RR. The WP:BURDEN is on the editor wanting to include the images. I am sure that Δ is aware of the bright line, as is Indocopy about the regulations of NFC. You are right, the dispute has to be resolved on talkpages, or a proper selection has to be made - not by changing licensing information or reverting images back in without having proper rationales. --Dirk Beetstra 09:29, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    I refuse to listen??? I'm not the one who just deleted comments from his talk page without action/discussion.
    The template is not generic, it is one I personally created for these images. The content is more than 50 years old and is therefore public domain, and were correctly tagged as such 6 days ago, now you are reverting them in what appears to be an attempt to get free content deleted based on an 'unused non-free image' tag. This is vandalism, nothing more.
    Your behaviour is highly disruptive, if you had a problem with my image tagging you could have notified me and explained any issues you had, but nope you just revert (after six days!) and don't say anything, and edit war over and over and over again.Indocopy (talk) 09:34, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

    There has recently been some discussion over Commons about this subject. I feel it would be best to take it there. —BETTIA—  09:28, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

    I rather disagree. I have a simple complaint here. I tagged numerous images as public domain, which they are unquestionably are, being older than the 50-year term, and this was reverted by Delta who refused to discuss the matter. It is not a copyright matter, it is a complaint about Delta's obstructive behaviour in (a) edit warring and (b) not discussing. Indocopy (talk) 09:44, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    You'll need to cite where "older than the 50-year term" makes them public domain. In the USA, at least, that's no longer the case. — The Hand That Feeds You: 12:36, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    Well yeah I did that, that's why this is vandalism. I created Template:PD-Indonesia, in accordance with numerous (Category:Public_domain_copyright_templates_by_country) similar templates on Misplaced Pages, and then tagged the image accordingly, as I explained in my original post (above). The copyright law in Indonesia is clearly hyperlinked from the template and hence from the image that Delta disrupted reverted without cause and refusing to discuss it. Indocopy (talk) 14:49, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    No, it is not vandalism. You definitely need to stop using that word, which has a very specific meaning here, in this context. On a side note - the bank note in the photo was issued in the 90s... but the design is from 1960? Does that affect things? This whole bank notes issue is largely unresolved. --Errant 14:55, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    There are no photos, only scans, there is an important difference in copyright terms, scans of an object enjoy no secondary copyright whereas photos do.
    As for 'the banknote in the photo being issued in the 90s... but the design is from 1960?', nope I've no idea where you get that idea from, although equally I'm not sure what image you are referring to? The banknotes issue might be 'largely unresolved', but when you take 50+-year-old images that are clearly in the public domain and you edit them such that they will be auto-deleted within 24 hours, and then refuse to discuss the matter, well I think it's legitimate to regard that as 'vandalism'. Indocopy (talk) 15:21, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    "...scans of an object enjoy no secondary copyright whereas photos do..."
    Wait, what? Where do you get the assertion that a scan of a work enjoys different copyright status to a photograph of a work? Book publishers might want to have a word about that... — The Hand That Feeds You: 22:46, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    • @Indocopy; asserting a violation of 3RR because you believe you're right and Δ is wrong when there's been no consensus that you are right, in a situation regarding copyright is improper. As Dirk noted, the burden is on you. Fail that burden, and those policing your edits are not in violation of 3RR. Attempting to force your way by rampant reversions is not the way forward. If you can't convince a body towards consensus that a given set of images are free license/public domain, edit warring won't work either. Be patient, wait for consensus to develop, and stop edit warring. We've had enough blasts about this pattern of edits that are entirely avoidable if you simply choose to wait it out. We take copyright seriously here, and no amount of edit warring is going to change that. --Hammersoft (talk) 13:49, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
      • FWIW, no, I disagree. This is not a case that unquestionably violates the free-content policy. The only thing that can be enforced in this case is common consensus (which seems to be slowly emerging). So both parties here are in violation of WP:EW and 3RR still applies. --Errant 13:59, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
        • As Dirk noted, the burden is on the editor wishing to use the content. Failing that proof, we have to treat the images as non-free. NFCC applies. --Hammersoft (talk) 14:08, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    (Non-admin comment) NFCC states that it is the duty of users seeking to include or retain content to provide a valid rationale; those seeking to remove or delete it are not required to show that one cannot be created. A valid rationale was provided, fulfilling the burden of proof. Even if the user wishing to remove it has a valid counter-argument, it no longer unquestionably violates the free-content policy, thus 3RR applies, so far as I can tell. - SudoGhost 14:17, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    SudoGhost is correct. I agree with these images removals FWIW, but there is nothing there that is valid as an exclusion under 3RR. Edit warring is a bright line with few exceptions. --Errant 14:22, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    No ErrantX and SudoGhost, there is not a rationale for using so many of these images. That qualifies as overuse, which we, per our m:Mission should try to minimise, as we are trying to write a free encyclopedia here. Someone has questioned the use of so many of them, so the burden of proof is on the person who is re-inserting them. Be it 1, or be it all. --Dirk Beetstra 14:26, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    Expanding, if someone questions the rationale, then the rationale is not unquestioned anymore, and hence it can not be a valid rationale until those questions are answered - the burden of proof is on the one wishing to (re-)insert them. Its painful, but if there is a vandal making some silly removal of an image one would even have to answer that rationale - 'I think it does' is not good enough. --Dirk Beetstra 14:35, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    All true. However it still does not count as an exception. The proper response is not to edit war but to report the user rv-ing or to request protection of the article until matters are resolved. --Errant 14:40, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    • It's inappropriate to request protection for an article when one user is acting against policy and revert warring in a way that violates our NFCC policy. --Hammersoft (talk) 14:43, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    • If the other option is to edit war against them.... no, no it certainly is not. Where on earth did you get that from :) I'm not trying to be awkward - just pointing out that a less laid back admin might well have handed out blocks here. --Errant 14:48, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    Logical rationale has been given on the article's talk page that the images are PD (among other things), which means it no longer unquestionably violates the free-content policy. I'm not aware that a questioned rationale is not a valid one, nor of any policy that states that. Show me a rationale that is never questioned, because that seems unlikely. The talk page itself shows that it no longer unquestionably violates the free-content policy, and there is an ongoing discussion as to that very question, with valid rationales being given by those who wish for the images to be used.
    If you ask ten editors if it violates NFCC, and six say yes, but four say no, and give very good, logical reasons why it doesn't, that seems to be the very reason the policy says unquestionably violates the free-content policy instead of the other way around, images can be removed unless those images unquestionably do not violate the free-content policy. - SudoGhost 14:55, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

    Well, so much for WP:BURDEN. It's been officially vacated. Facepalm. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:01, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

    Huh? Totally unrelated. It is definitely not appropriate to use WP:BURDEN as a rationale to edit war, it is not an exclusion. That the edits failed WP:BURDEN is a matter for the talk page & other dispute resolution (i.e. here, RFPP, etc.) --Errant 15:04, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

    (ec) Well, that PD is not that unquestionable I am afraid. That some thing is not under a copyright anymore does not make them PD. But well. Yes, bingo, SudoGhost: images get removed unless they unquestionably do not violate the non-free-content policy. I am sorry, there is no negotiation there, if they violate the non-free-content policy, or in other words, if they they violate copyright, then they have to go until the opposite is proven. --Dirk Beetstra 15:06, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

    Uh, you might want to check out the Misplaced Pages page on public domain. 'Works are in the public domain if they are not covered by intellectual property rights at all, if the intellectual property rights have expired' Indocopy (talk) 15:13, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    • No, that's not accurate. We suspend all tenants of WP:NFCC policy as soon as anyone disagrees with them. WP:BURDEN is also suspended. Didn't you know that? --Hammersoft (talk) 15:10, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
      • Don't be glib. I am trying to helpfully explain a better process than edit warring, because all that will happen is eventually someone will be blocked for NFCC reasons (which in this case IMO are being reasonably questioned, though it looks like the removal will prove valid) and there will be a massive fucking fall out etc etc. Just use the right process. That is all :)

    --Errant 15:13, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

    I think you misunderstood, I was saying the opposite. The 3RR exemption is not Removal of content that might violate the non-free content policy., but says Removal of clear copyright violations or content that unquestionably violates the non-free content policy. I did not add the emphasis to unquestionably, it's presented that way in WP:3RR. Seems to me the policy-writer thought that part important, for reasons such as this, I can't think of a reason to bold that word unless it was important. As per the policy as written, and the spirit of the policy, Δ violated 3RR. If he didn't, then who possibly could? That unquestionably certainly isn't there for giggles. - SudoGhost 15:16, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

    Missing the point

    In response to Hammersoft et al above, I did not come here to assert a violation of 3RR, I came here to point out that Delta has vandalised public domain images (being older than 50 years, in accordance with Indonesian law), and then removed my attempt at discussion, and given his past history was liable to edit war to revert them, so I had no alternative but to flag it here having exhausted other angles to resolve this. There is no one 'set of images' here, there are many different scans of banknotes dating in publication date from 1945 up to 2010, and after earlier Delta-initiated dramas, he eventually conceded that those images published in the name of 'Republik Indonesia', 'Republik Indonesia Serikat' and 'Indonesia' are free content in accordance with Indonesian law, and these were tagged accordingly. Subsequently I also tagged scans of those banknotes published prior to 1 January 1961 as PD-Indonesia, since they are unquivocally public domain according to Indonesian law. The status of those more recent banknotes is not the subject of this AN/I report, and I would suggest that be discussed at a different venue - I posted here ONLY because Delta vandalised the >50 year-old, public domain images and refused to discuss the fact that he had done so or to revert the same; accordingly the comments about NFCC/WP:BURDEN while germane to Delta's wider pattern of putative misbehaviour overcomplicate what is in fact a simple problem of him reverting valid PD tags on old images.Indocopy (talk) 15:11, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

    And you've been told that vandalism is a very very specific thing here, and thats not what Delta did. When you stop using that term, maybe we can advance the discussion. Syrthiss (talk) 15:19, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    The only way to resolve this is to have someone with media copyright knowledge r.e. bank notes take a look. There are a number of issues which concern me that they may not be free images. But that is an issue for the talk pages - is there any admin action still needed? --Errant 15:23, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    Uh yes, the 50+ year-old images, which have been tagged for deletion by Delta tomorrow, which apparently I'm not allowed to call vandalism, should be reverted en-masse - I'm not sure how to do this, and would like it to be made clear that Delta should not revert these when his block expires Indocopy (talk) 15:41, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    Indocopy - to reply to your message further up the thread. The original image uploader noted that the scanned note (thanks for pointing out that) was issued between 1995 and 2008 (check the history). --Errant 15:24, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    Could you provide a permanent link to the relevant version, I'm not quite sure what we are looking at here. Indocopy (talk) 15:41, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    It's just a simple copy/paste issue caused by doing many uploads with the same text: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special:Contributions&offset=20080701000000&limit=500&contribs=user&target=Sumbuddi Indocopy (talk) 16:54, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    Uh. Look at the original revision for one of the images. Note the uploaders comment: Indonesian currency issued 1998-2005. --Errant 15:45, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    In reference to that specific image, the original uploader marked it wrong -- that note was not issued between 1998 and 2005 -- it was issued in 1953. See here : , looking for better examples. -- ArglebargleIV (talk) 16:22, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    Vandalism is any addition, removal, or change of content in a deliberate attempt to compromise the integrity of Misplaced Pages. I don't think for a moment that Δ is attempting to compromise the integrity of Misplaced Pages. I suggest you read WP:NOTVAND. Misplaced Pages is pretty strict on what is considered vandalism, and accusing someone of vandalism when they haven't vandalized anything isn't the nicest thing, and tends to only cause problems. - SudoGhost 15:26, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    No that's true, it's a shame therefore that Delta, whose behaviour wih me from the beginning has been aggressive and obnoxious started off by inappropriately calling my Good Faith edits, made prior to registering, vandalism. Incivility tends to breed the same, he uses abusive language threatens people with blocks, destroys people's hard work and refuses to discuss the matter, has made only minimal contribution to the copyright discussion except saying 'no', and then wonders why he gets blocked and people accuse him of 'vandalism'.Indocopy (talk) 15:41, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

    Not to worry everyone, Indocopy has remained very civil throughout all of this. This isn't spillage of multiple debates in multiple venues. Can we just trout slap the hell out of this and close this thread? Nothing productive is coming from it. --Hammersoft (talk) 16:08, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

    How does troutslapping resolve the copyright concerns? 216.93.212.245 (talk) 18:13, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    The fact that 50+-year-old images are public domain in Indonesia is something that Delta refused to discuss, having previously reverted the correctly applied PD-Indonesia template. So er, no, no discussion elsewhere. Again, 'missing the point'. Indocopy (talk) 21:29, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    • Discussion is happening elsewhere regarding the images and their tags, and further your assertion of the inviolability of the 50+ year old images being PD has been contested. I'm sorry you've found people disagreeing with you, but that's part of the reality of a community developed resource. Regardless, WP:AN/I isn't the place to be determining the copyright status of an image. --Hammersoft (talk) 02:23, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
    Again, I tagged the >50-year images as PD, and Delta reverted this without discussion, and then refused to revert and/or justify when asked to do so. That is not (or should not be at any rate) part of developing a community-developed resource. Hence AN/I was and remains the appropriate venue for signposting destructive behaviour.
    Further, the fact is these 50+-year old images ARE PD in Indonesia, that fact is inviolable, and if you believe otherwise, well I suggest you, or indeed anyone else that might agree with you, cites something to contradict the copyright law of Indonesia, which was prior to Delta's destruction, helpfully linked from the images. Because there has been zero, just sweet FA, posted to say otherwise, so what this amounts to is disruption, it's disruptive to say 'x is not public domain' or even 'there is an ongoing debate about whether x is public domain', without providing anything to contradict the evidence that it is, but instead, disingenuously, claim that this should be discussed elsewhere, when there is in fact nothing to discuss.
    Now, in view of the disruption caused, which has not been and cannot be justified, I have requested, and continue to request, that the reverts to these PD images be rolled back and we can move on. Of course you seem to be enjoying this pointless battle over a collection of half-century-old demonetised banknotes, far exceeding the attention paid to 99.99% of other images on Misplaced Pages, including many of much more obviously dubious status, so I daresay you will have a ready riposte???Indocopy (talk) 08:53, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
    Again, Indocopy .. I, for one, dispute that those images are PD, and that the copyright is actually gone (the copyright document you linked to is unclear whether currency falls under the group that looses copyright .. or under a group which never looses copyright. And then still .. loosing copyright (or IP, as you noted elsewhere) does not automatically make things public domain). If it is disputed, then the original one may be more accurate. Maybe time to find a specialist to really solve it? And tagging such images wrongly is certainly not the way to go. Things are non-free until proven otherwise. And WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS, indeed. Time to do something about it, Indocopy? --Dirk Beetstra 09:03, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

    WP:MYSPACEy users

    Three users (User:Fikri Miftahul Rahmat, User:Ferry Deniswara, User:Diantika Rahmat Galih Permana) turned their userpages into something similar to athlete articles. All their contributions are limited to their userspace with exception of Fikri who created an article of himself (Fikri Miftahul Rahmat). It was speedily deleted. The three users link to each other as "family members" at their user talk. The same person may be behind the three. Moray An Par (talk) 09:18, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

    As a note, I left the uw-userpage template on their talk pages, as well as a link to WP:FAKEARTICLE. I just noticed that they were not notified of this discussion, so I'll leave them a note about this too. :) - SudoGhost 11:50, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    Just as a side note, is it a good idea to have kids under 18 posting personal photos of themselves on Misplaced Pages, even if it's in the Userspace? Wildthing61476 (talk) 12:28, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    Not a good idea at all, although I'm not aware of any policy against it. However, there is a policy against non-free images in the userspace, and that image doesn't state if it is non-free or not. From Misplaced Pages:User pages#Images: Non-free images found on a user page (including user talk pages) will be removed (preferably by replacing it with a link to the image) without warning and, if not used in a Misplaced Pages article will be deleted entirely. - SudoGhost 12:33, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    I removed the image as per Misplaced Pages:User pages#Images, because it is lacking a free content license. - SudoGhost 12:41, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    Have concerns over usernames here. I'm pretty sure they may impersonate or promote non-notable materiel to Misplaced Pages. hmssolent\Let's convene 02:20, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

    I ran into Fikri Miftahul Rahmat and it was a mess trying to clean up after him as evidenced by his move log and all of the different locations where his user talk page ended up going. However, with these editors being young, I think they just don't know or understand what Misplaced Pages is all about. It seems fairly common for young editors to think Misplaced Pages is Facebook. Their user pages should probably be deleted through an MfD for being fake articles. -- Gogo Dodo (talk) 05:19, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

    User:Dbiela8293

    Dbiela8293 (talk · contribs) keeps adding an unsourced "real name" to the article for Crissy Moran which I keep removing on WP:BLP grounds. I was going to finally put something on their talk page when I checked their contributions. They've created an identical article under the name Christina McMillan which is the same name that they've been adding to the Moran article. Could some admin please delete the McMillan article ASAP per WP:BLP? I was going to put it up for CSD but I can't really find a CSD reasoning that fits this particular case. Thanks, Dismas| 09:57, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

    Duplicate article Christina McMillan Speedy Deleted as CSD:A10 -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:12, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    And I've added a request to stop the unsourced additions -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:18, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    Thanks! Dismas| 10:41, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

    Dbiela8293's talk page is littered with warnings related to Crissy Moran. One may assume they are an overzealous fan, but their motivation for adding Moran's alleged real name is irrelevant if it is not sourced. Given the recent publicity around "Porn Wikileaks", we should expect to see more of this kind of activity on BLPs of porn performers. Given that the user has not responded to any of the warnings left for them, I suggest that a block may get their attention and prevent further BLP violations. In a related observation, that particular BLP should not exist in the first place (and is here only due to some diligent vote-stacking at AfD and DRV). Delicious carbuncle (talk) 13:53, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

    I agree, but for the fact that they have not edited since this thread was started this morning. I want to see their response before deciding if/how long to block. One more such incident, though, and I'd be inclined to indef. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 18:41, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    They've just added the unsourced claim about her birth name again, so I have blocked for 24 hours (I only remembered about this report here after I'd done it) - anyone is free to adjust the block as they see fit -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 09:46, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

    India as a rising power - AGAIN

    The article India as a rising superpower was recently successfully deleted for consisting almost entirely of SYN, OR and NEO. This is not my issue, my issue is that recently banned user Neilpine (he was banned for various reasons regarding topics that involve articles such as this) has restored this page word for word (he was the original author/creator of the article) without contacting the deleting admin or even explaining his actions. I believe (as do other users and the deleting admin) that the page should be deleted, this occurred without any objections raised. What should be done on this issue? Thanks for your time. G.R. Allison (talk) 12:14, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

    (I've corrected the article title for you -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:17, 18 May 2011 (UTC))
    Actually, it looks like it was deleted by a prod. As such, his recreation of it is essentially contesting the prod. If it had been deleted by an AFD and recreated then it would be eligible for speedy deletion, but my advice would be to take it to afd as your next step. Syrthiss (talk) 12:19, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    I don't see any notification of any bans - what's the user banned from and where is it documented? -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:23, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    It appears that GR Allison is confused with terminology. Neilpine was previously blocked for 24h, but has not been banned. Syrthiss (talk) 12:24, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    If this version is exactly like the deletion version then it should still be speedied, regardless of being a prod or not. If the editor at least made some small effort to address why it was prodded, then yea, an AfD would be the route to go. As for the banning, the user was blocked for 24h for edit warring is what I assume the filer is referring to. Tarc (talk) 12:25, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    Incorrect. "This criterion also excludes content undeleted via deletion review, or which was deleted via proposed deletion or speedy deletion (although in that case the previous speedy criterion, or other speedy criteria, may apply)." (from the G4 criterion). If it had been speedied as say G11 and was still G11-y, it could be redeleted as G11. If it had been afd'd and was recreated as the version that was deleted, then it could be G4'ed. As it was prodded, it is not eligible for speedy G4. Syrthiss (talk) 12:31, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    Yeah, it's a roundabout issue. They should've gone to WP:DRV and contested the prod, but the end result is pretty much the same. This needs to go to WP:AfD for now, if you want it deleted. — The Hand That Feeds You: 12:38, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    Syrthiss, note the world "should" in my post. What you go on to cite is precisely the type of process wankery that I hoped to avoid here. This is why the prod process is pretty much a joke, when it allows one-off IPs to remove tags without rationale or allows others to simply recreate the article verbatim. Tarc (talk) 12:44, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    No, not a joke but IMHO it's sometimes misapplied. IMHO PROD is for articles that nobody gives a damn about and this article was never a good candidate for PROD because it had an active editing history. Major edits were made during the PROD period by an editor who likely didn't know he himself could have removed it. This article should have been AFDd from jumpstreet. --Ron Ritzman (talk) 13:32, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    Sorry, I do seem to have confused the terminology, he was blocked not banned (I now know the difference). Following the advice here I have moved it over to AFD, thanks for your help in trying to resolve this people. Have a good day. G.R. Allison (talk) 12:42, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

    There's some backstory here that it appears editors don't know about. India as a rising superpower looks like a recreation of an article that was deleted/redirected in 2007 (India as an emerging superpower) after extensive discussion, see e.g. Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/China_as_an_emerging_superpower_(fourth_nomination). So the creation of India as a rising superpower circumvented deletion review, it looks like.

    My memories of Wiki-doings in 2007 are rather hazy, but I believe that there was some sockpuppetry involved in the deletion debate then, so it might be worthwhile to check if there's any going on in relation to the current article. --Akhilleus (talk) 19:28, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

    St. Giles

    I'm not sure whether this is the right place, but there seems to be violation of Misplaced Pages's copyright on the Guardian article London parish's descent from glamour to grime charted in exhibition, by Maev Kennedy. Here's an example of where the author seems to have closely paraphrased Misplaced Pages's article St Giles, London: Misplaced Pages “from 17th century Georgian affluence, the area declined rapidly, as houses were divided up, many families sharing a single room. Irish Catholic immigrants seeking to escape desperate poverty took up residence and the slum was dubbed "Little Ireland" or "The Holy Land".” Guardian: “the startling decline from 17th-century affluence to Georgian squalor, as the old houses were subdivided and let out as common lodgings – with so many Irish Catholic residents, it was dubbed "Little Dublin" or "the Holy Land.” The article, although it follows a different structure to the Misplaced Pages article on St. Giles, is based on it, and there's no attribution of the content to Misplaced Pages. I quote WP:REUSE on our policy on this issue:

    • To re-distribute a text page in any form, provide credit to the authors either by including a) a hyperlink (where possible) or URL to the page or pages you are re-using, b) a hyperlink (where possible) or URL to an alternative, stable online copy which is freely accessible, which conforms with the license, and which provides credit to the authors in a manner equivalent to the credit given on this website, or c) a list of all authors. (Any list of authors may be filtered to exclude very small or irrelevant contributions.) This applies to text developed by the Misplaced Pages community. Text from external sources may attach additional attribution requirements to the work, which should be indicated on an article's face or on its talk page. For example, a page may have a banner or other notation indicating that some or all of its content was originally published somewhere else. Where such notations are visible in the page itself, they should generally be preserved by re-users.
    • If you make modifications or additions to the page you re-use, you must license them under the Creative Commons Attribution-Share-Alike License 3.0 or later.
    • If you make modifications or additions, you must indicate in a reasonable fashion that the original work has been modified. If you are re-using the page in a wiki, for example, indicating this in the page
    • Each copy or modified version that you distribute must include a licensing notice stating that the work is released under CC-BY-SA and either a) a hyperlink or URL to the text of the license or b) a copy of the license. Anthem of joy (talk) 16:55, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    (nao)I don't have time to look at the exact quotes but our article almost quadrupled in size the day after the guardian article was published. It may be the other way round. Regards, Bob House 884 (talk) 17:20, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    Gaaah, I swear I checked the history properly...my bad.--Anthem of joy (talk) 17:34, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

    Administrators/Editors help needed to resolve the War Crime Article on Sri Lanka

    Sorry to bring this issue here, but please help to resolve on the Talk Page of the Alleged war crimes during the Sri Lankan Civil War.Hillcountries (talk) 18:40, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    What action do you want admins to take? The talk page is TL;DR. If there is a specific problem, please use diffs. Looks like a (heated) content dispute. If you want more eyes on the article, try a Request for comment. Looks like User:Exxolon is trying to offer a Suggestion, see how that pans out. --64.85.221.213 (talk) 01:44, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

    Corner benchmark disrupting WT:Norway (2)

    So, this thread went into the archives without any action. The user continues to post irrelevant lists at WT:NORWAY, and restores them each time I've tried to delete them. Would an administrator please take an appropriate action here? Many thanks in advance, Eisfbnore  20:10, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

    If you think they are a sock (as stated in the archived thread), open an WP:SPI. If they continue to repost the lists after you and others have removed them, report them to WP:AN3 (BUT you might want to start putting {{uw-3rr}} warnings on their talk page before reporting). This user seems to have a misunderstand of the connection between the en- and no-wikis. One more observation, their talk page does not seem to be utilized too much; since your 1st thread was archived w/o input, that might be a hint to try to talk directly to the user first (which I know can be a waste of time, but will then at least justify further action by an admin). Best. --64.85.221.213 (talk) 00:46, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

    99.174.160.188 and 99.174.178.143

    This user has violated 3RR on the Revisionist Western page and refuses to explain why he is reverting the constructive edits of myself and another user. I feel a warning is necessary.--76.106.255.89 (talk) 20:35, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

    Also, I would like to point out that my IP address changed and, obviously, their IP address changed as well. I have been editing Misplaced Pages for years under multiple different IP addresses.--76.106.255.89 (talk) 22:56, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    Looks like a content dispute. The whole list is unsourced, so technically the removal is justified, although they should provide a reason of some sort. Note, warnings don't need to come from admins, anyone can and should warn, including IPs; but you might want to try to discuss this on their talk page first before warning. If it continues, the appropriate noticeboard for edit warring is WP:AN3. --64.85.221.213 (talk) 01:08, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

    Long time disruptive IP editor

    64.136.197.17 (talk · contribs) - This obviously static IP-editor has been blocked two times already for changing the nationality to "Jewish", and inserting "Jewish" in ethnicity in various BLPs were it is clearly not relevant.

    Now its at it again: 1, 2. The reason stated for these edits are because, and I quote: "We need to know how many jews on the Supreme Court, US Congress, etc. The head of the IMF being a Jew is directly relevant. He is a Jew international banker.". This is clearly a tendentious editor, with a leaning towards anti-semitism, who on account of the previous blocks, should know how to edit in a neutral fashion. --Saddhiyama (talk) 20:45, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

    Apparently it is a deliberate long term strategy of disruption spread over several IPs, if one is to believe this message. Topic ban? --Saddhiyama (talk) 21:05, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
    I am outraged, sir! (/fakeoutrage) Glad to see there is a leash on this sort of behaviour though. =) Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | Say Shalom! 01:46, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

    Incivility from User:Bryonmorrigan

    I am usually civil on here, but it's editors like User:Bryonmorrigan that bring out the worst in me. There is a relatively minor dispute at David Barton (author) as to whether he should be labeled a legitimate historian or not. I'll admit I may have egged him on, but Bryonmorrigan has repeatedly made uncivil and/or POV-motivated comments on the talk page here:

    • "I personally feel that he should be treated like a Holocaust Denier, but I've been able to reign in my personal feelings enough to just put, "writer, activist" instead of "flagrant propagandist liar" or something...and the Christian Nationalists making these edits should attempt to keep a similar amount of neutrality when editing."
    • Says I am a POV-pusher because of the userboxes on my page when he has just as many controversial userboxes on his page.
    • "his 'theories' are just as absurd and based on half-truths and deliberate distortions." May or may not be true, but he doesn't have anything to back it up.
    • Says I am a "Christian nationalist" and am thereby discredited - "Finally, your own profile "outs" you as a "Christian Nationalist," so the shoe fits."
    • Then, he linked to the subsection on Christian nationalism - I didn't know what it was - and said "tell me I'm wrong" that I, myself, am one. Since this was inappropriate for the article talk page, I responded on his page here saying I suppose I do agree with this Christian nationalism, but asking him not to use it to discredit me.
    • After I did so, he wrote on the article talk page, "And I see now that a Right-Wing Extremist editor is going to try and delete all criticism. Charming." This is not only uncivil and uncalled for ("right wing extremist"), but flat out wrong - I have only made a handful of edits to the article, and they were either fixing words to avoid as per Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style (words to watch), fixing references, adding a source calling him a historian, and reverting Bryonmorrigan's reversions.

    I'm not the innocent victim here, but I just felt the need to call attention to this before it goes any further. NYyankees51 (talk) 00:06, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

    I was not referring to you, but rather the other editor that made a huge deletion of all of the links criticizing Barton. Bryonmorrigan (talk) 00:50, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
    Doesn't matter who it is, you're not being civil. NYyankees51 (talk) 01:08, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
    As for the link issue itself, it is highly inappropriate to keep a list of random criticisms in the external links of a WP:BLP. External links are informational and encyclopedic; it would be chaos if we put all sorts of criticisms in any BLP. See Barack Obama#External links for a proper example. NYyankees51 (talk) 01:14, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

    What action do you want admins to take here? You stated the offenses but requested no specific actions, and I can only see a squabble between a lefty and a righty. This is why userboxen are unproductive. Are you just looking for a moderator? You already started an RfC on the talk page. WP:WQA seems more appropriate. --64.85.221.213 (talk) 01:29, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

    There doesn't have to be any action, I just want to make sure people are aware of what's going on and to give myself and Byronmorrigan a venue to calm down. That's what typically results from ANI notices, from my experience anyway. NYyankees51 (talk) 02:04, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
    This is a misuse of this board, then. This is a "look at me" post. WQA is for cooling down (well, it's better than here). Have you read Misplaced Pages:Staying cool when the editing gets hot? You seem to label people rather quickly and take a tone with them, you also seem to escalate things rather than disengaging. I'm not saying Bryonmorrigan is clean here, but you posted this. You're always posting like this. It's those damn userboxen. The best way to deal with this, seeing as you are in the ideological minority on Misplaced Pages (not mocking, only stating the regrettably obvious), is to man up and grow some skin. Look at this graphic, you need to stay in the top 3 sections, yet you continuously drift to the bottom 3 sections and try to make yourself the victim. You need to stop making your mission so obvious and follow the rules. Try dropping this and continue with the RfC. But check the drama at the door ignore any insults and mud slung at you or in your direction. Ignore, ignore, ignore and stay on topic. Please. No disrespect intended. Can we close this thread then? --64.85.221.213 (talk) 02:56, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
    That's the thing. I believe in "full disclosure," which is really what he's got a problem with. I stated that I find Barton to be a fraud, and listed why...on the TALK PAGE...then advocated NEUTRALITY. NYyankee51, and others, are making POV edits. They're just as "partisan" as I, but want to pretend otherwise...while making clearly POV edits. NYyankee51 made the claim that my edits were POV, based solely on my Talk Page comments, even though my TP comments were intended to show what I would have stated in the article if I were being POV. It appears to have gone over his head. Bryonmorrigan (talk) 02:43, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
    If there is a POV issue, we could easily resolve it. There's no need for personal attacks and frantic comments. NYyankees51 (talk) 02:52, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
    I'm here as the accused "right-wing extremist" editor. For the record, I am a registered Democrat, albeit an extremely disappointed one. In any event, Bryon's behaviour is extremely disturbing. It's patent personal attack. From WP:NPA: "Using someone's affiliations as an ad hominem means of dismissing or discrediting their views." I disagree with the IP. This is the proper venue for this issue. Bryon's unacceptable behavior is directed at multiple editors spread over multiple articles, the latest being Christian terrorism. He is attacking users he believes are conservatives, and users he believes are Christians. It has gone beyond WP:WQA, and it must stop now. Bryon is relatively new to Misplaced Pages, so I am not advocating a block at this point. But the community must impress upon him that in this forum we only talk about content, never editors.Lionel (talk) 06:50, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

    Revision deletion questions

    An IP made this edit to Nancy Cartwright, with an edit summary suggesting that Cartwright did not want information about the death of a former boyfriend included. That edit summary has now been hidden, although it does not appear to meet any of the criteria for revision deletion. It is unclear to me why the edit summary was hidden but I have checked the logs and no entry appears for this revision deletion. So, my questions are:

    1. Why was this edit summary hidden?
    2. Who hid the edit summary?
    3. Why does this not appear in the deletion log?

    Can some helpful admin look into this? Thanks. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 00:11, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

    It doesn't appear in the log because it has been Oversighted, not RevDel'd (not even admins can see it). There was probably an OTRS request (just a guess, but I see no other context). If you think it needs to be reviewed you need to contact the audit sub-comittee --Errant 00:17, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
    Technically, we call it suppression rather than oversight, because a true oversight (using the original tool) wouldn't show up in the page history. Only the edit summary was suppressed for that edit; it contained non-public personal information. The actual edit itself was not suppressed. Risker (talk) 02:39, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
    I suspect it may have been revision hidden before it was suppressed, but perhaps I am wrong. At any rate, the edit summary prior to oversighting was "Nancy Cartwright has requested SEVERAL times that this portion (that I have edited) be taken down IMMEDIATELY. Please call with any questions" and a phone number which I have redacted in case that is the reason for oversight. Googling that number reveals it to be the phone number for Cartwright's management. The issue seems to a passage inserted into the article by User:Cirt about the death of a former boyfriend. Given that the section on Cartwright's personal life is a total of five paragraphs (counting the disputed section), it seems that the IP may have a point about including this material. Whats more, the section uses a Scientology publication as a reference, which seems unusual given that there appears to be a long-standing general consensus that Scientology publications are not reliable sources. To remove the edit summary in this case makes it appear that the IP was simply vandalizing the article rather than attempting to explain their actions (in fact, Cirt gave them a warning for blanking). I can see no reason for suppressing this edit summary - can someone clarify the rationale and who requested the oversight? Thanks. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 02:51, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
    Phone numbers are routinely removed and suppressed because they are not verifiably associated with the editor inserting the information. When the only thing that needs to be suppressed is the edit summary, that is all that is suppressed; the edit itself did not qualify. I have already supplied the rationale above. We do not supply the names of individuals who request oversight or suppression, and I am rather disturbed that you would ask. As to the paragraph in question, I have removed it from the article as an editorial decision: if there's no information verifying that they even married, the person's religious beliefs and death are completely irrelevant to this article. Risker (talk) 04:06, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
    Thanks, although I am unsure why you would be disturbed by my question about who requested the suppression. I have asked for material to be oversighted in the past. If I had asked for something as seemingly banal as this suppression was, I would not be the least bit bothered that anyone knew I had done so. If it is policy not to divulge such information, that is fine, but the question itself seems harmless. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 04:37, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
    You might feel differently if it was a personal attack or attempted outing/disclosure of personal information directed at you, or if there was reason to indicate that the editor whose edit were suppressed may direct unwanted attention toward you as the requestor. Since these are both commonplace issues when it comes to suppression, as are requests from the targeted individual, it does concern me that the question would arise in a widely read public forum. The majority of requests for suppression arrive by email, and these are treated confidentially. Risker (talk) 05:26, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

    Help with a rangeblock

    I need help with a rangeblock for an IP hopping edit warrior (and suspected IPsock). 75.47.151.87 (talk · contribs) and 75.47.157.136 (talk · contribs) and 75.47.146.105 (talk · contribs). Unfortunately the netmask calculator I usually use is down. Could someone provide the netmask or take care of this please? Toddst1 (talk) 02:45, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

    I did the rangeblock. Cheers, -- Cirt (talk) 03:07, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

    Administrative review has been requested on a set of edits

    This is covering a number of general topics at the moment, so it's getting posted here rather than a specific sub-board.

    The current issue deals with recent edits to Flash (Barry Allen). The edits in question are: #428656737 - 428668034 (4 total), 428668034, 429318135, 429330125, 429330275.

    Ancillary to this are: User talk:CmdrClow#Edit summaries, User talk:J Greb#Re: Edit Summaries which are immediatly related to the edits; Talk:Flash (Barry Allen)#Final Crisis image, Talk:Flash (Barry Allen)#Flash: Rebirth #2 as image, Talk:Flash (Barry Allen)#Infobox image, Talk:Flash (Barry Allen)#Infobox image 2010 (which is a long one) which are a history of the talk page discussion of this issue; and WP:CMOS#BOXIMAGE, the relavent project level guide line.

    At this point the issues that have been raised amount to:

    CmdrClow indicated he wanted administrative advice/review so I figure it might as well get kicked over here and take what may come. I've indicated to the other editor that I've done this in my response to them on my talk page. I'll also see the notice template on their talk page.

    - J Greb (talk) 22:45, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

    Reposting here since this rolled of AN without comment... - J Greb (talk) 03:04, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

    Point of order: post-archival editing

    Resolved – All set, page restored to archived condition Sswonk (talk)

    Not sure what to do in the case of three editors commenting at a discussion of the block of Sarah777, when the discussion had already been archived. My feeling is that all three edits should be reverted and the discussion restored to its archived state, since per watchlists the late additions may not have been seen by a majority of participants. That would mean that the "conclusion" and "winding down" of the thread has a coda that was not part of the discussion, but simply post-archival edits and opinions which skew the final stable version of the thread. Here are the diffs: , , and . AGF for the editors; however, my view is that these edits should be removed from the archive. Please act to do so and comment here if that view is correct. I have not contacted the editors, this is somewhat minor but if that is thought necessary please let me know. Thank you. Sswonk (talk) 03:13, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

    Damiens.rf Conduct

    Request a block for Damiens.rf (talk · contribs) for tendentious editing, violation of consensus, violation of WP:3RR, and WP:CIVIL:

    Calling one user an "arrogant bastard" in the edit summary

    Calling another user a "psychologically afflicted individual" and suffering from dementia in the edit summary followed by "Guy, you're sick as hell. Find someone to help you."

    False accusations of vandalism

    Edit warring + violation of 3RR despite two lengthy discussions to keep the image IAW WP:NFCC:

    Frivolous image deletion nominations (unanimous decisions to keep; just recent ones):

    Snide/rude remarks:

    Cutting off any/all discussion and WP policies don't apply due to his greatness: " up and stop posting...on my talk . I'm essential to the project's image deletion process."

    Given that his last block for incivility was 1 week, I suggest increasing the block to longer (2-3 weeks? 1 month?). — BQZip01 —  05:03, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

    Its a dubious claim indeed that the arrogant bastard edit summary was directed at a specific person as an insult. OAKED Arrogant Bastard Ale - is the name of a delicious beer from the brewing company that article is about. Also Damian and Dreadstar have some kind of issue with each other and the dispute appears as a two way street. I also notice that User:BQZip01's image uploads have been given a good going over by Damian - perhaps they should all just keep out of each others talkpages/way and take each other off their watchlists. No one will make any friends here by nominating users favorite non free/not used uploads for deletion, but I don't see need for a block at least not just yet - more than a week? - next step is a month. If I was him I would get a new less contentious project to work on instead of file deletion nominations or my crystal ball sees more editng restrictions in the near future for Damian. If Damian is being disruptive in the file deletion nominations and nominating multiple files without basis then perhaps a editing restriction to stop him nominating files for deletion is in order? Off2riorob (talk) 06:34, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
    Not going to really even look at the civility thing, although I do find that he has an assumption of bad faith issue (he places preemptive harshly worded rebukes on FfDs). What I wanted to jump in and say though is that while Damiens isn't the most pleasant person to work with at FfD, his batting average is very, very high. The three "Frivolous image deletion nominations" were not frivolous, and even if they were, represented three in dozens and dozens of FfDs. Few people are willing to sort though the massive quantity of images we have and weed out the crap. If he really made the quote about being essential then someone needs to trout him a bit, but at the same time, he has a point; he does a lot more good than harm at FfD. The proposer here is going for pile on, and in this issue, he's missed the mark completely. Sven Manguard Wha? 08:11, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
    One more thing. Damiens' last block for civility was in 2009. Again, this is pile one, and it's not very convincing. I recommend that the admins take this thread with a heavy pinch of salt. Sven Manguard Wha? 08:13, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

    Attention wanted at Leonard Kaye (Leonard K. Collins)

    The article above has been nominated for speedy deletion as a copyright violation for several hours now. In that time, the author of the article has asked for help on some social networking site to "contest" the deletion. The talk page of the article is now flooded with anonymous IPs requesting the article be kept, because "she wrote it, so it's legal."

    Apart from WP:COI and WP:MEAT concerns, I'd like an admin to delete the article and attempt to explain to the editor about how copyright works on Misplaced Pages, which is frankly an area I'm not of much expertise in. It's a bit frustrating to see an new editor resort to these sort of tactics, especially when it's being tagged for legal reasons. elektrikSHOOS 05:26, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

    Request please

    Would an administrator please unprotect the talk page of Charles Whitman? I have an IP who informed me that they couldn't edit the talk page so instead of being able to discuss they are only able to revert which of course isn't good. Thanks in advance, --CrohnieGal 10:17, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

     Done Mjroots (talk) 10:32, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

    Thank you for your quick response. I appreciate it. I was surprised to learn that the talk page was protected when I read it at my talk page. Again thank you, --CrohnieGal 10:34, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
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