Misplaced Pages

The topic ban proposal seems to have quite a lot of support based on the consensus that is emerging here. If the restriction is to be imposed, I would recommend that notice read to the effect of:

Wikid77 (talk · contribs) is hereby banned (for six months/indefinitely - duration still to be decided) from making edits that describe, discuss, or otherwise relate to the Murder of Meredith Kercher case — broadly construed — across all namespaces on Misplaced Pages, including on his own and on other users' talk pages.

Wording is as drafted during the last WP:ANI topic ban proposal discussion related to Wikid77 in September 2010. SuperMarioMan 20:21, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Given present disruption, previous sockpuppetry etc and 'coaching' at (among others) the talk pages of Zlykinskyja, CodyJoeBibby and particularly the the topic-ban flouting with PhanuelB I think that this wording covers most bases pablo 20:50, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes - the parts "broadly construed" and "on his own and on other users' talk pages" should be emphasised. However, obviously, there should be a caveat stating that MoMK-related edits would not constitute a violation in the project namespace if made in response to discussions at WP:ANI etc. that directly concern Wikid77. SuperMarioMan 21:10, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

• Comment I proposed an indefinite topic ban rather than a definite one because a definite one has already been tried and failed to arrest the problems in this user's editing. Indefinite does not have to mean infinite of course, but I feel like the indef ban (maybe with a review after a year) is the logical next step in escalation. I would urge those suggesting a six month ban to consider this point. Having said that, I think there is probably sufficient consensus for a ban of some kind already. --John (talk) 02:48, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

For me, six months would have to be the minimum, given that the earlier three-month topic ban seems to have had little positive effect. I too would favour an indefinite topic ban this time around, although I would argue the case for an opportunity to appeal after six months (or perhaps longer, e.g. 12 months). At any rate, I see little hope of Wikid's attitude changing in the foreseeable future, if his latest contributions to his talk page are anything to go by. I agree that there already seems to be a fairly solid consensus here for some sort of topic ban to be imposed. SuperMarioMan 02:59, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

What about a one year ban (splitting some of the difference)? By that time, I would hope the appeals process would be finished and this dire need that the SPAs have to right what they perceive to be a great wrong will be over. The situation should be very different by then (I hope). If not, and he resorts to the same behavior, then I would support an indef ban or indef block.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 03:19, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Six months, 12 months, indefinite (perhaps with the chance to appeal after a certain period) - I would support any one of these. Of course, as John states, an "indefinite" topic ban need not be "infinite". However, the problems with Wikid's editing are entrenched and persistent, and his conduct has experienced a significant deterioration in the last couple of weeks in particular. That is why I favour an indefinite topic ban - there is little or no sign, even now, that he actually understands how disruptive his recent actions have been. With luck, an uninvolved administrator will soon wrap up this discussion so that we can all move on. SuperMarioMan 10:15, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

• Support Indefinite & broadly construed topic ban, with option to appeal in no less than a year's time. Nothing has changed since Wikid77's last topic ban less than a year ago, which he had violated early. And his thinly veiled attempts to egg other users on must be covered as well. MLauba 09:58, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
• Comment - If a user is advocating a point of view, that's clearly against the wikipedia way. If the user's primary focus is the Knox case, then maybe a topic ban until the case has run its course would be appropriate? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 10:29, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

• I agree in principle but will note that there are still two possible appeals (one ongoing) for the defendants, which can take a couple more years. Plus, what happens if the defendants remain unsuccessful when the issue is that this user is already convinced that the previous rulings were injust? MLauba 10:55, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
• I think a specified period would be better; given the previous weaselling and wikilawyering about the meaning of 'three months' the duration should not be open to interpretation. pablo 11:02, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

• If the appeal process is likely to take 2 years, then make the ban be 2 years also. After 24 months, then see what the situation is. Oh, and I do recall wikilawyering about how long a month is (maybe in a different situation), so specify the date and time on which the ban ends, and then there will be no dispute. For example, noon UTC on June 3, 2013. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 11:06, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

• Your memory of the wikilawyering about the length of a month is actually spot on. Same editor, same context, last year's topic ban. MLauba 11:17, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

• Since 2012 is a leap year there is a good chance he repeats his wikilawering and comes in a day early again :) TMCk (talk) 12:06, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Something's fishy here

...or perhaps WP:DUCKy. Take a look at CodyJoeBibby (talk · contribs). Considering he registered his account on April 1, 2011, he certainly seems to know his way around. Same thing with BruceFisher (talk · contribs). Both of these are Amanda Knox SPAs. I am finding it difficult to believe that these two are new editors to the project. N419BH 20:32, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

I made a similar suggestion regarding CJB a while back in an earlier ANI thread about him. Considering how many SPAs have come and gone to the Knox-related articles I wouldn't be surprised. -- Atama頭 21:03, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

BruceFisher (editing under his real name) is not CodyJoeBibby if that is what is being implied. I doubt that Mr. Fisher is socking.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 00:19, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

I for one didn't mean to imply that, and I assumed that N419BH didn't either. I'm actually not familiar with BruceFisher. But CodyJoeBibby blipped my sockradar, see here. What got me was the repeated use of the "but I'm a new editor" excuse, something I've seen sockpuppets do, as they try to use their brand-new-and-different-editor masquerade to its fullest advantage. But I didn't feel like pursuing at the time and still don't. -- Atama頭 00:44, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm not implying anything, as without specific evidence tying two accounts together would be a major assumption of bad faith. I do not believe the two are related, though I find it hard to believe both are new users. Perhaps Fisher edited under an IP previously. In any event, it's CodyJoeBibby that seems to be quacking, and quacking quite loudly I might add. As for who the sockmaster might be, I have a hunch, but I don't have enough evidence to back up said hunch and it would therefore be an assumption of bad faith to publicly state who. There seem to be a very large number of SPAs here. N419BH 01:38, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Well this article does attract a disproportionate number of SPAs, most of whom appear to have some knowledge of the editing history of the article and its talk page. I suspect that some wander over here from some advocacy forum or other seeking to right great wrongs. pablo 08:31, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

• Just be bold and lanuch an SPI if you want - certainly worth a punt in my view. GiantSnowman 20:34, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
• I would argue that the grounds for an SPI are insufficient - at least, at the moment. If puppets of some description have indeed been editing at the article or the talk page recently, they would more likely be meatpuppets as opposed to sockpuppets. Pablo does have a point about external, off-wiki pressure. I strongly doubt that CodyJoeBibby, in particular, is a doppelganger of BruceFisher (or vice versa), because there are quite clear differences in their writing styles. SuperMarioMan 09:39, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
• I'm not a sock puppet. I also don't plan to do much if any editing of the MoMK article in the near future, as it has in fact improved quite a bit in my view. We'll see what happens with further developments in the case. May i say that I feel that Wikid's treatment has been excessively harsh. He seems to be a pretty constructive editor on the whole. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 12:19, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

I would agree in part. Wikid77 seems to be a very productive editor in general, outside this subject. But I do not think that contributing to this subject area is a good thing, either for Wikid77 or for Misplaced Pages. Hence a topic ban is the way to go. I don't think it's harsh, but I do think it's sensible. pablo 19:42, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Is there some way Wikid can appeal this decision since he has not been able to represent himself given that he was silenced by an administrator early in this discussion. This is a breach of basic principles of justice which hold in all democratic countries. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 21:58, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

He could start a new thread when his block expires, but I highly doubt consensus would change. Furthermore, Misplaced Pages is not a democracy. OhNoitsJamie 22:00, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

This is the typical response from someone who knows nothing about the law. Principles of justice still hold in Misplaced Pages. In my opinion, they have been violated. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 23:08, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Blocked users retain the ability to edit their own talk pages, so Wikid would be able to refute the arguments in favour of a topic ban from there if he so wishes. However, given some of his most recent comments at that talk page, a convincing refutation would not appear to be forthcoming. SuperMarioMan 22:35, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Balls. Silenced how? Where? Blocked certainly, also on a tactical wikibreak. But any number of people would happily repost any comment that Wikid wishes to make on his talkpage. It's happened before. pablo 22:37, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Move to close

There is near-unanimous support for the topic ban in principle. Would it now be possible for an uninvolved administrator to determine the duration (six months, indefinite, or something else), based on the consensus from the arguments and comments above, and then enact the topic ban? SuperMarioMan 14:52, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

I don't think there's anything else needs saying. Admin ho! pablo 23:59, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Indeed. All it needs is an uninvolved admin to step in and do the final ruling but it's weekend and admins are usually rare at this time of the week as they need their break too, just like everybody else :)TMCk (talk) 00:31, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Still, is there any chance of this being wrapped up soon-ish? The discussion has been going on for three days. SuperMarioMan 02:01, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

User HighKing back at compaign to remove British Isles from Misplaced Pages

Irish nationalist editor HighKing is back at his campaign to remove all use of the British Isles from Misplaced Pages. Expanded now to remove all references to Republic of Ireland contrary to British Isles and Ireland sanction defended by the corrupt Irish admin Cailil. Usual suspects involved.

• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Gasteruption_jaculator&action=history
• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Carex_hirta&diff=prev&oldid=431968470
• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Pigeon_Valley&action=history
• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=The_Story_of_Your_Home&action=history
• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Hammer_of_the_Gods_(video_game)&action=history
• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Republic_of_Ireland&action=history
• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=John_Lingo&diff=prev&oldid=431550569
• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Francesco_Spinacino&diff=prev&oldid=431178625
• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Martin_W_I_Weston&diff=prev&oldid=431178289

Can we address this one at the source of the problem for once and for all, or are you going to allow it to blight the Misplaced Pages for ever and waste everyone's time and energy? Sven the Big Viking (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 13:32, 1 June 2011 (UTC).

You need to be sure you notify the other user involved in the discussion on their talk page. I've gone ahead and done this for you. Wildthing61476 (talk) 13:45, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

This one must surely be regarded as part of a systematic removal? Lancashire Druid (talk) 17:17, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 14:06, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

What Fetchcomms said. Can some admin please get to grips with this sockology. RashersTierney (talk) 14:12, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

• Note that user has identified as User:Toug ma Tojer who I recently blocked as a sock of Irvine22, perhaps mistakenly. I really hope an SPI isn't necessary? This is certainly a sock of someone or other. --John (talk) 14:29, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Toug ma Tojer has the usual remedies open to them. Editing with a new account while blocked is a no-no. RashersTierney (talk) 14:38, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Please be aware, there's a Twitter feed on this topic here; Lancashire Druid (talk) 16:03, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Nationalists make my head hurt. Can't all these Irish and English people just hug and make up? -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 16:09, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Just topic ban all of them, they make the Misplaced Pages environment toxic and new users see them and walk away. Highking's contributions here have solely been an attempt to remove some geographical term all of which has been totally disruptive and of zero value to the development of the project. Hair splitting disruption from start to finish describes his edits. Off2riorob (talk) 17:11, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

This is vandalism . A whole section removed because it contains British Isles. Lancashire Druid (talk) 17:29, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Based on the removed content and the edit summary, I'd say it's pretty clear it was removed for OR reasons. lifebaka++ 18:38, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

• Blocked as a SPA - in the dozen or so edits over the two years of existence they spent over half arguing over the term British Isles. LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:02, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
  • Sven seems just as much an SPA as the account you just blocked. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if both accounts are the same person. I can't think of any other reasonable explanation why Druid would come out of a 9 month period of inactivity just to post here.--Atlan (talk) 00:00, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
    • Sven is also a self-professed sock of a banned user judging from the comment left at User talk:John. Is filing an WP:SPI necessary if the sockiness of Sven seems obvious to everyone here? --HighKing (talk) 15:32, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

      They seem to have stopped, but if it restarts it will probably be short-lived. RashersTierney (talk) 00:05, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

No Sven is not a "self-professed sock of a banned user" you deliberate little twister of facts. Some child who does not speak Swedish took offense at my name and disallowed it for want of any reason better to trip me up.

Let's put aside all the desperate attempts at poisoning the soup or creating drama and address the main issue, this man's campaign to remove the term British Isles from the Misplaced Pages. He is doing it again and again and again! Not one word has been said to address this. His trawling attempt to accuse me of being anyone else failed, so let's not waste any more time and address the issue.

Your silences are a confession of knowledge and guilt. You all know. You all know. Sven the Big Viking (talk) 15:55, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm sure Highking won't deny he takes exception at the use of the term British Isles. I myself have no idea what all the fuss is about so I can't comment on that. I DO know however, that all you have done since your account was created, is revert Highking's edits and reporting him here. That is behavior very unlike the usual new account, so I don't doubt for a second you are a returned blocked user, and a distruptive single-purpose one at that.--Atlan (talk) 17:14, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

User:Commodore Sloat

If this user really is the owner of the blog linked to from his user page, then he and User:Jinxmchue are one and the same. Wasn't Jinxmchue banned, IIRC, for a death threat? 96.26.213.146 (talk) 01:28, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

• Not that I can tell. Also what is this complaint regarding, specifically? Protonk (talk) 01:37, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
  • Sockpuppetry. For some reason I remember Jinxmchue being banned for making a death threat, and the revision had been deleted, though that may have been someone else. I never actually got into a dispute or even had contact with this user, just saw his name on talk pages frequently and looked at his userpage. Then, I just followed the trail from the domain of the broken link on his page. 96.26.213.146 (talk) 01:46, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
    • Jinx hasn't edited in 3 1/2 years, and your first edit was just a few months ago. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 01:50, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
      • So? What I was trying to say was that the person behind the Jinxmchue account, (NAME DELETED), may have created a new account, a long-undiscovered sockpuppet. 96.26.213.146 (talk) 01:54, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
        • So, which ID did you used to edit under? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 01:58, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
          • Hi IP96, please do not post editors' real names even on ANI when they are not publicly disclosed on the editors' pages. I have removed the name above and replaced with (NAME DELETED) and requested a RevDel (which has also been completed). Thanks, ROBERTMFROMLI | /_CN 03:11, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
• (edit conflict) I deleted an edit which contained personal information about an editor. Do not post information like that. It will not help your case (whatever that is) and will result in your being blocked from wikipedia. Protonk (talk) 03:12, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Don't shoot the messenger. Are they the same person? If they are the same person, shouldn't some action be taken? 96.26.213.146 (talk) 03:25, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

• It isn't shooting the messenger. Posting personal information about editors is strictly forbidden and normally would result in a block without warning. Protonk (talk) 03:29, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
• As for the original complaint, do you have any record of the ban discussion? Like I said above I don't see a block log that reflects a ban. Protonk (talk) 03:30, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

An editor who is not blocked, banned or sanctioned is allowed to retire and come back using another name. I do not know if this is the case here, but it would not matter. TFD (talk) 05:40, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

10 May 2004 - Commodore Sloat first edit (still active as of last week)

Has had several blocks - none since 2008

24 Sep 2005 - Jinxmchue first edit

02 Dec 2007 - Jinxmchue last edit

Had a couple of short blocks - no bans that I can see

20 Dec 2010 - 96.26.213.146 first edit

02 Jun 2011 - 96.26.213.146 talks like he's been around a lot longer("IIRC")

←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 10:35, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

• FWIW, it's just an odd coincidence that two Misplaced Pages users (with wildly divergent views) used the same URL for their blogs. Commodore Sloat added the blog link to his userpage in *2005*; The Internet Archive has a snapshot from February 2006, showing the blog as it looked then. You'll immediately recognize that that is not the same blog that is there now. Further, a post on the new blog indicates that Jinx McHue moved his blog to that domain in December 2010. There is no connection. Horologium (talk) 12:42, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Hmmm, his real name was listed, his logs are listed, he is accused of sockpuppetry, and it is insinuated he should be banned. With all of this trash talking of Commodore Sloat, methinks I will drop a note on his talk page, maybe giving him a chance to actually defend himself. Wait, this was done by 96.26.213.146, right? NOT. --(Missouri)64.85.220.196 (talk) 13:45, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Drive-bys seldom issue warnings. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 14:00, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Once Commodore Sloat has a chance to see this thread, assuming Horologium's correct, I am going to make sure I cut it from the archives. This defamation of character by 96.26.213.146 has no place on WP. Irresponsible posting, dude. --(Missouri)64.85.220.196 (talk) 14:16, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Your threat to "cut it from the archives" is out of line, and your "defamation of character" comment is pretty close to being a legal threat. "Knock it off" yourself, drive-by. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 14:29, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

And what user ID have you been using since your last previous edit, 5 years ago? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 14:19, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

<redacted> or something. --(Missouri)64.85.220.196 (talk) 14:22, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Not bloody likely. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 14:24, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

(od) I know, sorry, this just ticks me off how this can be tossed around without any consideration for some user not even bothering people. --(Missouri)64.85.220.196 (talk) 14:28, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

What connection do you have to the wronged party in this case? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 14:30, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

None. OK, so I thought you were doing the right thing by looking into this, but obviously you just like stirring up things (as everyone knows). So, Bugs, what relation do you have to 96.26.213.146? And why are you trying to lay this socking on Commodore Sloat? --(Missouri)64.85.220.196 (talk) 14:35, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

None. I'm just trying to figure out what's going on with two drive-by IP's making various accusations at each other, meanwhile refusing to edit under their normal user ID's. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 14:42, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Alright then. I'm not a drive-by obviously (it's a dynamic). I haven't had an account for about 2+ years. I minded my own business and eventually grew tired of users who violated WP:CIVIL as a method of power and then claimed ignorance. Here we have an unjustified claim of socking on a very public board, and it's getting swept under the carpet. In the meantime, this named user is left in the dark. Not good. (And of course I lose my internet in the middle of typing this thereby giving me a new IP, great) --(Missouri)64.85.215.187 (talk) 14:54, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Things often sit here for awhile, as admins study the matter, behind the scenes. Nothing has been "swept under". And there's no apparent harm to Sloat or whatever. So, meanwhile, why did you give up your registered ID? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 15:04, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Did you not read what I just wrote? That's why. This long-winded tangent is of no use to the main thread and should be boxed and collapsed. If you say it's not getting swept under the carpet, then there is no longer a need for me to continue. If someone or an admin wants to courtesy blank this thread before (or after) it gets archived, then that would seem utterly appropriate (barring any contrary evidence). --(Missouri)64.85.215.187 (talk) 15:22, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I read it. It doesn't explain why you're hiding behind a dynamic set of IP's... unless you've got something to hide. Go ahead and box it up, as long as you don't "cut it from the archive". ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 15:31, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

(od) You just had to go and refactor your last comment to get in that snippy little jab didn't you? You just couldn't let it be and move on. You seem to enjoy violating civility and claiming "wit" don't you? Isn't an IP more open than hiding behind a fake user persona? ...In some ways, yes. Stop rattling the cage and drop it. Unless you think throwing out accusations is going to stop people from accusing you of whatever you are trying to hide. What is it you are so afraid people are going to find out about you Bugs? Just how exactly are you connected to 96.26.213.146? And just how long have you been beating your wife? Are we done here? --(Missouri)64.85.215.187 (talk) 15:49, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Are we? That's up to you. You began this segment of dialogue. Feel free to box it up. Nobody's stopping you. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 16:13, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm just curious if you'll let me make the last comment, or if your fingers will get tingly until you get the last word in. I'll just let this hang out here for a while. Bis Später. --(Missouri)64.85.215.187 (talk) 16:24, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Side note: That was German for Hasta luego. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:18, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

To 96.26, I bet you aren't a Republican. 67.233.243.145 (talk) 20:03, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

What is the point of that? Now you are baiting just as badly as Bugs. Drop it, for goodness sake. PrincessofLlyr 20:15, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Here is the point. This complaint seemed pretty oddly random, but I recalled that another user, SuaveArt, had a conflict with Jinxmchue. SuaveArt was not only banned, but actually was caught sockpuppeting and using said sockpuppets to attack Jinx. You might want to check if 96.26 matches any information about SuaveArt. I'd be very surprised if it didn't. 67.233.243.145 (talk) 20:52, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

And here is the issue I have with the both of you, and with other arrogant IP users as well. My editing history is out in the open, and you feel free to make snide remarks about my imperfections. You, in contrast, have no editing history. It starts over every time you reboot. That's why some users with dynamic IP's feel free to take drive-by shootings at registered users: because they have no history that can be scrutinized. They are hiding behind their dynamic IP's. Claims about alleged "good reasons" for dropping your registered ID are almost certainly bogus. The real reason is simply so that you can take shots at whoever you like, and never be held accountable for it. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 21:26, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

I will fully admit that I don't have any "good reason" to not have a user account, but I'm certainly not avoiding accountability. 67.233.243.145 (talk) 22:03, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

You avoid accountability every time you reboot - and also by refusing to tell us what your user ID was. And all of that raises suspicions. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 22:29, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

I think you've confused me with the other person. Of course, the whole "accountability" thing applies as much to me as it does him/her. I just don't see how the issue applies to those without user accounts. If you examine it deeper, not having a user account is little different to having one. You claim that people "avoid accountability every time reboot," but IP changes happen to many people with accounts. If one of them steps out of line and gets banned, can't they just reboot and make a new account using the new IP? Of course they can and they won't necessarily get caught, either. I'm sure there are plenty of users around who've done just that, some maybe even more than once. Also, there's nothing that says IPs can't be banned. So ultimately, the issue of "accountability" is really a non-issue. People editing with IPs are held to the same standards as people with accounts. Personally, I just don't want to be tempted to be obsessed with the wikidrama that I often see here. This ANI is a good example of that. 67.233.243.145 (talk) 05:25, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

• 67.233.243.145 is not the same person. My IPs geolocate to Missouri. 67.233.243.145 geolocates to Minnesota. Do not confuse 67.233.243.145 with my IPs in the 64.85 range. I'm done here, but I did not want to be impersonated by 67.233.243.145. I added "Missouri" to my signatures above to differentiate. --(Missouri)64.85.220.245 (talk) 00:52, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Alright, allow me to clarify a few things. I have no relation with the above dynamic-IP user or Baseball Bugs. What occurred was that I happened to encounter a strange case of a domain belonging to an established Misplaced Pages user (Commodore Sloat), that served as that user's blog, being bought by another Misplaced Pages editor("Jinx McHue"), who happened to have been blocked in the past. It seems that I was wrong with the alleged death threat by Jinxmchue; I probably had him confused with another user. The link to the former blog was still preserved, unchanged, on Commodore Sloat's page, and was actually broken; but when I went to the domain that Commodore Sloat's blog was formerly on, I saw another blog, and recognized the name "Jinx McHue". There's a possibility that this is not at all a coincidence, and that "Jinx McHue" registered the domain after expiration in an attempt to "get back" at Commodore Sloat for some Misplaced Pages dispute. Nonetheless, I apologize for the confusion.

67.233.243.145, being in Minnesota, is almost surely "Jinx McHue" himself (not the dynamic IP), and if so, I apologize for confusing you with Commodore Sloat, "Jinx". You are right that I'm not a Republican, and wouldn't want to be one. I hope this clears some of this stuff up. 96.26.213.146 (talk) 01:04, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

I have to honestly say that absolutely none of that so-called reasoning about either one of those two makes a lick of sense to me. 67.233.243.145 (talk) 05:30, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Well, for starters 67.233.243.145, there's this ("Jinx McHue's" blog, which has several references to being located in Minnesota), and if you look at the User:Jinxmchue user page, there are several IPs listed as being used by Jinx (put there by "Jinx" himself), all of which geolocate to Minnesota. Yes, it's suspicious that you come from the same state. Additionally, your IP has edits unrelated to this, which are on the pages Talk:Intelligent_design (a crank theory which Jinx loves to defend) and You Can Run But You Cannot Hide, a Jesusfreak fundamentalist ministry; "Jinx McHue" is a fundamentalist Christian.

I agree that the other, dynamic IP user is not Jinxmchue, or 67.233.243.145, but Jinx and 67.233.243.145 seem like the exact same person to me. 96.26.213.146 (talk) 08:17, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Guilt by association? (After a fashion.) I can see why you were banned. Getting around a ban by using an IP identity is still against the rules here AFAIK. It's the same as sockpuppeting, but you know all about that, don't you? 67.233.244.224 (talk) 21:14, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

As do you, apparently. Tell us again, how dynamic IP's are every bit as accountable as registered users? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:42, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Are you trying to insinuate that I'm SuaveArt? Well, I'm not. 96.26.213.146 (talk) 03:49, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

What to do?

I don't want to edit-war with the guy, but seriously, what more can I do? I've posted a reliable scholarly source, a university publication, with URL and page numbers, for the text I've entered into the article (I invite anyone to check the veracity of the source). And yet - I simply am "not allowed" to enter this information into the Yugoslav Front article because of one user. I've asked the user to post his sources, he did not do so. Incidentally, he is also now trying to remove, by way of edit-warring, a long-standing, obviously relevant image from the article without consensus and essentially on a whim. This can't be right. What can I do? --DIREKTOR 07:01, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

I've placed FpkCascais on an Arbmac revert limitation. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:27, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

This will hopefully grant more significance to references, as opposed to rhetoric and edit-warring, and encourage a more sources-based debate. --DIREKTOR 12:13, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Two issues - why was FkpCascais not informed about this thread (I will do so now), and why hasn't he been allowed to defend himself? GiantSnowman 21:02, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

I posted this thread on WP:AN as a general inquiry about the best possible course of action in the situation described, not specifically as a report on User:FkpCascais's behavior. I made a point of not mentioning his name. That is not to say that the course of action taken by Fut.Perf. will not be highly beneficial towards raising the quality of the discourse in this particular case. Edit-warring has now been eliminated as a means of removing content without discussion. The user did not post any sources, apparently relying on persistance in edit-warring, now perhaps we can have a more focused discussion. --DIREKTOR 21:14, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

I was just informed now about this thread by User:GiantSnowman. I am already punished without a chance to defend myself, including a note saying that I´ve done "tendentious" editing (?!). Seems clear to me that there was a precipitated wrong decition, lead by a clear agressive manipulation (including total missinformation) of the situation by a involved editor DIREKTOR. I am complaining about this situation and asking explanations and an oportunity to demonstrate what is really happening there. PS: Many thanks Giant Smowman, if it wasn´t your notice about this, I wouldn´t even know about it, cause I never even imagined this was here. Now, these are some facts:

• This issue is currently under mediation. User Direktors edits are highly controversial and disputed. Weather sourced, they fail under WP:UNDUE. Also, it was agreed on the mediation that the parts of the article that are being mediated should NOT be edited, thus every revert of major changes in those sections are rightfully reverted.
• I have an entire page of sources about this issue which I presented at the discussion: User:FkpCascais/Sandbox23. Seems that direktor purpously missinformed you all about being him the one backed by sources.
• I am being ganged-up on that article by a group of editors that share a same POV, and none of them is a participant of the mediation, but all willing to include their disputed edits.
• User:Direktor has been highly provocative and disruptive towards me for a long time now: as last exemples, please see the resposes towards me at ] or ] where in both cases I am attacked and trolled without any reason... This must end. Even after this I was completely stalked by direktor to every single user page. There is a big mistake done here and needs to be rectified. FkpCascais (talk) 22:20, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Again, it is clear from the formulation of my original post that the subject was a general inquiry. I am aware of the requirement to notify the defending party and I always do so immediately. The way things have turned out is that now I stand accused of precipitating "unfair treatment" against you. Please, as far as I'm concerned, do not hesistate to post your defence.

That said, I must say I do not quite understand how exactly one defends what is obviously persistent edit-warring (against several users) to remove a long-standing, related image from the article, in spite of clear opposition, and without any semblance of a talkpage consensus? The only justification you posted is that this image is somehow the "same" as this image and that "clearly" therefore one of those two should be removed, to me that simply makes no sense at all. --DIREKTOR 22:19, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

This is only my opinion: FkpCascais is a fine editor and disputed articles are controversial very much! Photo, with German soldiers and Chetniks, is tendentious and slanted in that section and top position because in March 2004, the National Assembly of Serbia passed a new law that equalized the Chetniks and Partisans as equivalent anti-fascists; moreover photo is of obscure origin: when and where it was made?--Tiblocco (talk) 16:27, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

That is an issue for the talkpage. Neither the original purpose of this thread nor the sanction placed upon FkpCascais have anything to do with the image itself. I for one am certainly open to moving the image about, but not removing it simply because it offends someone's patriotic sensibilities. The only reasoning posted by User:FkpCascais in the summaries of his edit war was that, since there are two images depicting Chetnik collaboration, one "clearly" has to go. "Proclaiming" a limit of ONE image related to a particular subject one finds personally disagreeable, and trying to enforce it with edit-warring, is imho indeed tendentious editing. --DIREKTOR 16:40, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

The edits of User:Hobartimus and User:Nmate at Hősök tere

These two users are trying to remove the link to the japanese wikipedia correspondent of the article and refuse to respect Misplaced Pages:USEENGLISH (by imposing the Hungarian name Janos Hunyadi instead of English name John Hunyadi). Can you please warn them in order to make them stop the edit war? (Daccono (talk) 18:33, 2 June 2011 (UTC))

I don't see where either of them have edited today. I do, however, see where an admin has changed the name to its English variant and cited the WP:MOS as the reason for the change. Perhaps that will settle things down. --Alan the Roving Ambassador (talk) 20:03, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm no admin, but I know MoS fairly well due to some recent dealings with longevity lists; this is pretty straightforward. Same reason why we use John Cabot instead of Giovanni Caboto, even though the latter is his real name. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 21:08, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

My bad, I thought you had a mop. Still, the MoS is quite clear, so yours was the good call. I'll keep an eye on the page for a bit. --Alan the Roving Ambassador (talk) 21:40, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

• First of all, everyone who wants to report anybody at WP ANI, meets a yellow stripe saying that "You must notify any user who is the subject of a discussion."

Well actually, nobody of those whose name is mentioned here in the report has been notified about being discussed.

• Second, this discussion is in entirely the wrong place:

At the top of this page it says "What this page is not This page is not part of our dispute resolution process for content issues." and also says "To report edit warring, see the administrators' edit warring noticeboard." Well actually, It looks like a content dispute.

• Third, I have to say that the way in which Daccono behaves himself when contributing to Misplaced Pages is quite surly:

"remove vandalism from the English wiki; EN wiki should use the scientific EN terms", (WP:NPA)

• Fourth, So it looks like a discourtesy:

For what this page should not be used is that that the reporter tries to recruit somebody to support his POV so that the 3RR supplement of the reporter emulates that of his antipodes ,whereof ensues that that this board might also be used for having the POV of someone rammed thorough an issue by those formerly uninvolved ones that consider the standpoint of the reporter to be sympathetic.

--Nmate (talk) 11:31, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

It's not a POV issue, it's a simple MoS issue; we go by the English name of people. See my example above, or consider Christopher Columbus; accusing people of conspiracy theories is neither productive nor factually correct. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 18:43, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Badger Drink, civility block and unblock by Beeblebrox

I blocked User:Badger Drink for his continued disruptive interactions with Treasury Tag - specifically , , and similar (see for more). Particularly this block was for personal attacks and for repeatedly ignoring the "comment on content, not on the contributor" mantra. Beeblebrox has then unblocked without discussion with me, and without a wide consensus to overturn the block - which I would hope would be established here. If such a consensus does exist, I have no problem with an unblock, and have started this thread to get wider input. If this thread doesn't show consensus to unblock, I intend to reblock, otherwise all is well. Thanks for your input. Prodego 00:00, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

• Just confirming that I have been made aware of this thread, but I have agreed to refrain from commenting. Badger Drink (talk) 00:12, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

I agree with the unblock; I'd show a certain amount of tolerance for people who've been baited by Treasury Tag. Also, to pick a nit, if there isn't consensus either way, the default should be to leave unblocked (since it isn't an AE block); I think that should have been "if this thread shows consensus to reblock, I will."--Floquenbeam (talk) 00:07, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

If Treasury Tag is such a problem, why not block him then as well? Other stuff exists, or in this case, other editors. Prodego 00:09, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Well, because I wasn't here at the time, for one thing. But yes, if BD was going to be blocked for that little spat, TT should have been too. Better they're both unblocked, however, and just go to their respective corners. --Floquenbeam (talk) 00:17, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Admins should always work together...undoing another's block without at least consulting the blocking admin should be taboo.--MONGO 00:11, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

If Treasury Tag is such a problem, why not block him then as well?

Now there's an idea. Just follow some of the links posted (no, not the one where TT defends a pro-nazi userbox because "he didn't understand it"), the complaints about his behaviour at recent AfDs: User:TehGrauniad/Sandbox1 and WP:Requests_for_comment/User_conduct/Assistance#Help_with_RfC, WP:Articles for deletion/Terry (Fawlty Towers), WP:Articles for deletion/Silence (Doctor Who) and no doubt others. Andy Dingley (talk) 00:18, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Let's see, we've got:

"I find it quite surprising that such an evidently sensitive, easily upset snowflake would be capable of such provocative statements and actions." - Reply to TT's WQA request

"Your condescending swarm has not gone without notice." - In reference to the WQA community

"res to the illiterate" - Edit summary

Ect. And that's just a small amount. Not to mention the inappropriate tagging of TT's page. I completely support this block. Silverseren 00:12, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

This was a poor block. TT brought a complaint against Badger Drink to WQ. It was being discussed, but looked like being at very much the initial phase. Badger Drink responded with a complaint against TT. I've no idea who is in the right or wrong, but that was for discussion. Jumping in unilaterally and blocking one party is unhelpful. There was no outrage in what BD said, and no need to act before a few people had looked at the interaction. It would have been better had you given some opinion of what you thought was going on, suggested a remedy (which might be a block) and awaited a consensus. To block, and then demand a consensus to unblock is putting the cart before the horse. Unblock was justified.--Scott Mac 00:13, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Sheesh - I expect administrators to reduce disruption not open dramah threads like this when they have been challenged quite reasonably - and with a threat to re block - hold your hands up and stop digging. Off2riorob (talk) 00:14, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

• Support unblock. An editor who is in conflict with another should be able to speak more freely at WQA than in other venues, without being blocked for relatively minor incivility - especially when the dispute and incivility is not one-sided -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 01:18, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
• Support unblock. TT is a frequent flyer in these drama threads, and to be frank, baits with such sarcasm that at times it's going to come back around at him. Not bothering to read in depth this time, as it seldom does any good as far as getting an end result. — Ched :  ?  03:34, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

• Let me preface these remarks by stating that in my pre-admin days I was very active at WQA and have have always thought it was something we need as an alternative to the pitchfork-and-torches drama of this forum. Treasury Tag knows the difference between WQA and this board, having posted here many times. He chose to file at WQA. The entire point of that forum is to hash out issues without the threat of a block looming over the conversation. That's not me talking, it says quite clearly t the top of the page not to report if "You want blocks, bans, or binding disciplinary measures to be imposed/enforced." I don't condone BadgerDrink's coarse tone or smarmy responses, but issuing a block as a result of a WQA defeats the purpose of having a place like WQA. I would also note that two other admins, including a sitting arbitrator who has had his own problems with TT in the past, both stated they thought this was probably a bad block. I noted in my unblock statement that I took their opinions into consideration as well, but somehow that has not yet been noted in this dialogue. While consulting with the blocking admin is something we normally would do before unblocking, in some cases it is not appropriate to leave a user unjustly blocked while we wait for a reply. I deemed this to be such a case. Civility blocks are for the very worst kinds of incivility only, or for repeated disruptive comments after being explicitly warned that a block was imminent. I don't see either of those conditions in this case and therefore I summarily overturned the block. Beeblebrox (talk) 04:11, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
• Support unblock per those above, but then, no one would be surprised at that. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 04:44, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

I was only going to make that one statement here, but I've just noticed the following: When informing me of his objections to the unblock and his intent to open this thread Prodego claimed it was not in response to the WQA report itself but solely for his reply there. Putting aside the fact that that is a fairly nonsensical statement, it also directly contradicts his statement to BD when blocking him "Based on this WQA report, and particularly your response there, I've blocked your account for 48 hours. (emphasis added). Further his entry in the block log says the block if for "tenacious editing, personal attacks" . So, we've got three explanations for this block that don't quite match up with one another. I can only assume he meant to say "tendentious" editing, but that reason is noted only in the block log and was not mentioned in his remarks to BD, to me, or here at this thread. Put that all together and it seems like Prodego isn't even sure himself why he made this block. I think it is time to to admit this was a mistake and move on. Beeblebrox (talk) 05:02, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Why not just do away with civility blocks altogether? When even remotely questionable they are always reversed and nit-picked with "Aw, that wasn't so bad!" Then, we can all act like jerks and just carry on. Doc talk 05:27, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Oppose any unblock for any reason whatsoever that was not previously discussed with the blocking admin. 216.93.212.245 (talk) 06:13, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

• I don't really want to get involved in all this wittering, but would just like to say two things. Firstly—I did not intend to get Badger Drink (talk · contribs) blocked. My WQA report was merely to gather third-party views on whether or not the material I presented was considered acceptable (though perhaps unsurprisingly, that hasn't happened). I support the block because he was behaving very unpleasantly, but I genuinely didn't have blocking in mind at the time I posted the thread, merely reprimand. Secondly—the usual folks have turned out to say that I baited this person by arguing that a particular userbox should be kept, by posting someone a personal attack warning for calling me "illiterate" and by asking them to explain their warning to me about "using improper humour." If anyone can provide feedback on how any of those actions were provocative, I would be interested indeed. ╟─TreasuryTag►senator─╢ 07:53, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
  • "Baiting" is a red herring anyway. Being civil or uncivil is chosen behavior. The "look what he made me do" game is just that - a game. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 08:17, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
• Badger Drink's comment were not significantly more inflammatory or out of line with what I frequently see at WQA. Given the lack of clear community consensus on blocking for incivility (see Misplaced Pages:Incivility blocks), the block seems inappropriate to me. Gerardw (talk) 10:09, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose any unblock A rogue admin who should have his admin tools stripped for following procedures incorrectly and when approached cannot admit to his errors. He needs to learn to respect other editors like Prodego, and communicate with other people. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 15:55, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

• Note that Blofeld made this remark right after calling me a "dickhead" on my talk page. I trust he will remember that he held this position when his own block for gross incivility comes... Beeblebrox (talk) 16:02, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

I told you to refrain from making snide dickhead judgements about other editors in your AFD closures. It is completely inappropriate for you to do so when articles can obviously create tension in the heat of the moment. In closing at article at AFD you should NOT act like some kind of wiki God and pass judgements on the editors involved in it but rather on the article itself. You seem to show a complete disregard for your peers on here. In this instance here you abused your position to make a fellow admin Prodego look foolish for his blocking decision.♦ Dr. Blofeld 16:10, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Hmmmm...do you think your comment about "snide dickhead judgements" will create tension in the heat of the moment? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 16:48, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

User:MajorHawke

I need some help here. I have tried over the past year to coach User:MajorHawke towards editing within the policies and guidelines of the site, but he's just not hearing it. He inserts original research constantly, and today has flat-out said, in an edit summary, "who cares no sources say it, it's true".

I've been trying and trying to help him understand our policies, but I have to admit that I haven't succeeded. A few weeks ago I asked LessHeard vanU to help me try to get through to him; LessHeard vanU left him a warning and explained to him in no uncertain terms that if he kept this up, he'd be blocked, and suggested that I take him to AIV if he kept it up.

If anyone can think of another way to get through to him, short of blocking, I would greatly appreciate it. If blocking him is the only way to get him to stop acting against the policies and guidelines of the site, well, I guess I'm reluctantly requesting that. 28bytes (talk) 00:35, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

My 2p worth is that this is reminiscent of the Gobbleswoggler episode. Enthusiasm is one thing, but enthusiasm without WP:COMPETENCE doesn't help the Misplaced Pages project as a whole. If MajorHawke isn't willing to accept the assistance of an editor of long standing AND the advice of an admin, perhaps it's time for an enforced wikibreak. --Alan the Roving Ambassador (talk) 00:44, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

The latest. 28bytes (talk) 01:09, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

24 hour block. Sadly, he's clearly not listening, and is instead lashing out with abuse. People have clearly tried hard to help him with constructive advice and encouragement, but if the carrot won't work then we unfortunately have to resort to the stick -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 01:24, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

I think the user wants to be blocked for more than 24 hours per this. Eagles 24/7 (C) 03:03, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

People get angry when we block them. This is expected. Often, they vent a little. Also expected. I doubt that extending Hawke's block simply because of a little venting is going to help the situation. If he comes back and keeps this up after he's had a night's rest (or a day at work or whatever), then we can consider a longer mandatory break from Misplaced Pages. Cheers. lifebaka++ 03:43, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Yep, I think this needs defusing rather than escalating. It's just an angry juvenile reaction and I don't mind taking a bit of abuse, so I've given him a (friendly, I hope) warning, and we can see how he behaves when the block expires - I'm keeping my eye on what he does, and I'm sure others will be too -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 07:46, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Boing! said Zebedee, thanks for stepping in here and for your message to MajorHawke on his talk page. Hopefully he'll come around and listen to the advice; as I told him earlier, if he can pair his enthusiasm with a good understanding of the do's and don'ts of editing, he can do lots of good stuff here. 28bytes (talk) 14:34, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

NP, I've seen a few similar cases while I've been here, and there's usually a good chance they can be brought round -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:09, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

User:Csteffen13

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Csteffen13 (talk · contribs) appears to edit solely for the purpose of supporting Winchester2313 (talk · contribs).

• His very first edit was to support Winchester2313.
• The only AfD he ever participated in was in support of Winchester2313.
• The only AN discussion he's ever participated in was to defend Winchester2313.
• His first, and until recently only user talk page contribution was a gushing praise of Winchester2313.
• His second, and most recent user talk page contribution was to admonish another editor for talking to Winchester2313 in a way Csteffen13 did not like.
• He returned to Misplaced Pages on May 20, after a 5 month editing break, to edit-war in support of Winchester2313. Winchester2313's edits:. Csteffen13's edit: His Talk: page comments were also all in support of Winchester2313's positions.
• He has edited a total of 16 unique pages, 11 of them in common with Winchester2313.

Many of Cteffen13's other edits are in support of Winchester2313, though he has also made a small number of other "decoy" edits. Because his writing style differs from Winchester2313's, I doubt Csteffen13 is an actual sockpuppet, but it appears that this little-used (85 total edits) account's purpose for editing Misplaced Pages is to act as Winchester2313's meatpuppet. brewcrewer (yada, yada) 02:13, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Just a suggestion, this seems like it would be more appropriate at WP:SPI as opposed to here. - SudoGhost™

At the SPI talk page they said it wasn't required if one wasn't asking for a CU. Jayjg 00:52, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

I'm not (as yet) overly informed about the methods and workings of these things, but reading the charge above, I feel a few obvious points would serve everybody well:

1.I am quite active on some fairly controversial articles, particularly Elazar Shach, Chabad Lubavitch and other, similar articles. These seem to attract a number of sporadic, narrowly focused editors, e.g Csteffen13, Yonoson3 and others on both sides of the debate. Brewcrewer has focused here on Csteffen13, but much of what he says might be equally applicable to an editor like Yonoson3 editing sporadically in support of an editor such as Jayjg ?

2. The positions I take in controversial articles are well-sourced, and I hardly rely on others 'support' (or lack thereof) to establsh validity. That others may see things as I do regarding Elazar Shach is not surprising, as the man made a career of attacking other Rabbis and groups, so I'm sure he's viewed with an equal measure of disdain across many lines and by many different groups.

3. I'm not sure what significance an editing crossover of 11/16 topics might have, considering the confluence of so many popular debates within the Jewish religion and various groups of its adherents, especially, again on highly controversial subjects...? Winchester2313 (talk) 16:10, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

It's fairly obvious that Csteffen13's only purpose for editing is to support Winchester2313, and this is done in many different venues, which one would not normally find an editor with so little Misplaced Pages experience or with a specific topical area of interest. The question here is, does one actually need to make an SPI report if one is fairly sure a meatpuppet (not sockpuppet) is editing? Or can this board simply ban a little-used obvious meatpuppet account? Jayjg 18:40, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

It's obvious enough an SPI is a formality. —Jeremy v^_^v 22:24, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

So Csteffen13 should be blocked then? Jayjg 00:52, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

I'd actually prefer to see an SPI and checkuser results in this case. I realize the writing styles are different, but I imagine that's easy enough to accomplish if one sets one's mind to it.  – OhioStandard (talk) 01:11, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

To what end? Jayjg 02:25, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

(I've been asked to respond here by Jayjg) Technically a case like this would go to SPI, but I really don't see a reason to split the discussion. If they're not suspected of being the same person (leaving aside any meatpuppetry concerns), there's no technical information a checkuser could provide that would help. At that point, it would be up to a patrolling admin/clerk to close the SPI and decide what, if any, action to take. Leaving it here just skips straight to the admin action part. TNXMan 11:21, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

@Jayjg: The topic area is so contentious, and so rife with socks, that I'd prefer to see a formal SPI, with checkuser. I loathe socking, and I'm not convinced by the different writing styles that these are two different people; I'd hate to miss catching a possible sockmaster, and only block his sock. By copying the diffs already provided above, it would just take a couple of minutes to file the SPI and request checkuser. Also, and with all possible respect, Jayjg, I'd suggest it's probably not the best practice that ideal perfection would require for you to yourself block accounts on the opposing side of the I/P wars, except in cases of blatant vandalism. I mean no offence; I'd say precisely the same to any admin who's expressed any similarly strong support for the opposite side to your preferred politics in the topic area.  – OhioStandard (talk) 12:05, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Ohiostandard, perhaps you are under the impression that this is an I-P related article. It's not. This is an Haredi Judaism related dispute, and more specifically a dispute that supporters of Chabad have with Elazar Shach, because Shach was very critical of Chabad's leader. I can't ask for a CheckUser here, because CheckUser is not for fishing, and no-one thinks Csteffen13 is an actual sockpuppet, even though he's an obvious meatpuppet. If you want to satisfy your own curiosity, feel free to, but I think most people that an SPI is not required, this is at the right place - in fact, they'll no doubt just kick it back here if you try. Jayjg 01:56, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Response: I am not any kind of puppet that I know of, and nice try by Jayjg and Brewcrewer to ban an occasional editor who they obviously disagree with. The simple reason for me being a heavy wiwkiuser and a very light wikieditor is that I really have very little free time. I happen to have strong opinions about Elazar Shach as I bet do most editors. I did in-fact study in Ponevich for almost 2 years, so feel like I have more knowledge about what happened there in the late 80's than most. Still, I limit my edits to things that meet the wp:v standards and try to keep a wp:npov. Interesting how Jayjg warns ME about edit warring on the Elazar Shach page, but not Brewcrewer who keeps warring to support Jayjg's own arbitrary and disruptive editing, which clearly violated wp:npov. Or am I the only one noticing? C Steffen 00:39, 1 June 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Csteffen13 (talk • contribs) Oh, and the simple reason I support Winchester2313 on most of his edits on these controversial topics is simply because I usually agree with him. I didn't know there was anything wrong with that?!C Steffen 00:43, 1 June 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Csteffen13 (talk • contribs)

NOTE: I see Csteffen13 has been recalled from his most recent absence to yet again defend Winchester2313 (immediately above), and revert on his behalf. Is it finally time for administrative action? Jayjg 02:48, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

• Response: As I pointed out above and in my edit summary, I'm not here to 'defend' anybody or anything. My edits all conform to the rules as I read them. Its a really sorry situation if all Jayjg can do after harassing and edit-warring with editors whose work he doesn't like is to now try and ban them. Perhaps its time for Jayjg to post another warning on my talk page now, as seems to be his habit whenever he disagrees but can't legitimately deny others contributions. Yes, I think his actions on Winchester2313 s talk page make this clear to anybody bothering to look. As I read it "Misplaced Pages is not censored", even by long-term editors like Jayjg. Am I missing something here? --C Steffen 13:21, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

I'd appreciate an administrative closure here. Jayjg 03:54, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

The accounts are  Unrelated technically. Brandon (talk) 09:12, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Grumptooth

 by User:Fastily S.G. _ping! 10:40, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

• Grumptooth (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Meant to make this block VOA. When I tried to change it, it did not go through. Can another admin block indef?

Thank you for your time, -- Cirt (talk) 10:21, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

My thanks to Fastily (talk · contribs). -- Cirt (talk) 15:59, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Spurious Greek etymologies

Over the past few months a user or group of users, editing under various IPs, have been engaged in adding spurious Greek etymologies and Greek origins to a variety of articles, beginning from Greek folk dances (Zeibekiko (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), Zeibeks (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), Hasapiko (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)) and spreading to yoghurt (Cacık (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), Tzatziki (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), Yoghurt (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)) and lately mathematics (Algorithm (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)). This circus has been going on for several months despite temporary semi-protections, and the latest incarnation is 79.130.92.92 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Despite warnings and temporary blocks of the previous IPs, he persists in reverting what he calls "vandalism", and is already deep in WP:3RR territory. Clearly a single-purpose account out to spread the obvious truth that the world owes everything to the Greeks and that there is no Turkish or Asian influence in Greek culture. I request blocking the IP and long-period semi-protection of the articles in question (Zeibekiko and Zeibeks at least, since they attract the most attention), so that we don't have to deal with this every month. Constantine ✍ 12:09, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Ouch. The anon uses as his source a site called "www.argyrou.eclipse.co.uk". Somebody please blacklist this. The owner of that site is notorious. Same guy who used to plague Ancient Greek phonology under the username of Thrax (talk · contribs) back in 2005. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:21, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Double ouch, I know 'Agamemnon' very well from Usenet, he was a well known kook. The site should definitely never be used, blacklisting's a good idea. Dougweller (talk) 12:46, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Could you do that please? I still have this mindblowingly silly Arbcom restriction hampering my work. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:11, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

I think I can only request it, and I doubt it would be blacklisted. But maybe someone knows more about the criteria than I do - well, I'm sure many people know more about blacklisting than I do. Dougweller (talk) 14:55, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Any admin can add the string "\bargyrou\.eclipse\.co\.uk\b" to the MediaWiki:Spam-blacklist page. Just watch out you don't write \b(argyrou\.eclipse\.co\.uk)|.+\..+" instead, because by doing so you would unintentionally burn the servers, delete the main page, desysop Jimbo Wales and freeze all articles forever. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:23, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Blacklisted- hopefully everything is fine, and nothing is ruined. TNXMan 16:27, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I wasn't aware I could, but I certainly wouldn't want to, that stuff makes me nervous. I'd assumed my sysop permissions didn't apply there. Dougweller (talk) 06:55, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

(unindent) Someone should also take care of the WP:RPP requests, they've been overseen, apparently... Otherwise we'll be back to the same business in a few days. Constantine ✍ 17:13, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Still at it, apparently, coming in from 94.64.43.151, adding undue weight to the Greek origins of the Zeibeks. __ Just plain Bill (talk) 20:24, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

sources of wikipedia verification reverted  :

This user(s) are known about anti-nation gestures and tactiks the articles of wikipedia Zeibekiko and Zeybeks are vandalising by them many times ago because just They do not like the Greek origin. I leave in your chance... Noone tryed to do any vandalism WITH ADDING some informations that are certified by world ,Its just a simply source but they dont like seeing it thats all... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.130.92.92 (talk) 12:28, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

I made this new section a subsection of the previous one as they obviously belong together. Hans Adler 12:36, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Fast block needed on article creator

Footyarticlecreator (talk · contribs) is creating about 1 article a minute. Each article says "is a *** player" sometimes with "in the X league". In some cases, the team names appear to be nicknames; there's not nearly enough information here for these even to count as sub-stubs. Articles are being tagged as A7 or A1 immediately upon creation, but there's no reason to let this continue any longer than it has to. Qwyrxian (talk) 13:36, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Block needed asap

See Special:Contributions/Footyarticlecreator - creating loads of sub-stubs, which are being CSDd as A1, A7. Ignoring numerous requests to desist on his talk page. - Sitush (talk) 13:37, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

See above section - great minds, etc. - Sitush (talk) 13:38, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Already reported on WP:AIV. Regards.--♫Greatorangepumpkin♫T 13:39, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Footarticlecreator is  Confirmed as Drodedsweard (talk · contribs), who was blocked 2 days ago for the exact same thing. –MuZemike 15:22, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Not sure but what I may be too involved here to think straight

An IP and some s.p.a. accounts keep re-inserting identical language into Steven Downes, recounting the subject's own version of a political dispute with a member of Parliament. The language they use is cited solely to the subject's own blog, so I've been reverting its insertion, pointing out the need for reliable sources. Instead, the various identities simply revert to Downes' preferred version (or at least the version sourced solely to Downes' blog). Can somebody else take a look? My union convention starts in 5 minutes, and I've got to be on the floor. --Orange Mike | Talk 13:55, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

I semied it for two weeks. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:07, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

User:Thonos's offensive userbox

User:Thonos Who self-identifies as a racist, has a userbox with a Swastika on his user page: a clear violation of WP:UP#NOT.

I suspect Thonos may well be a sockpuppet of a blocked user. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:20, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Whatever else they were/are doing, I've blocked the proxies they were hiding behind. Please let me know if they edit again, so I can either a) block more proxies or b) see who they really are. TNXMan 16:24, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Ok, thanks. Do we leave the userbox on the page then? AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:31, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I left my thoughts on your usertalk. There was also a nice personal attack by User:BoxOfRazors in one of the reversions back to the userbox . Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | Say Shalom! 16:32, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I've gone ahead and removed it. Anyone is welcome to undo my action if it's unwarranted. TNXMan 16:34, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

It doesn't make much sense to me as I said. More people associate it with anti-Semitism. This whole thing actually segues into something I have been wondering about, and I know it's more for the Help Desk, but is it ok to put on your userpage that you might have some biases against certain groups (for reasons of declaring your biases)? Like just stating you have a bias, not any offensive names for said groups or colourful descriptors. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | Say Shalom! 16:39, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Actually, I could take BoxOfRazors's comment as a compliment:  ;-) AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:42, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Well he got the banhammer anyway. =p Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | Say Shalom! 16:47, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Dunno how he could nazi that coming... HalfShadow 16:55, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Facepalm . /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 17:24, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

The editor (whose name is apparently a demon on some video game) claims to be against racial hatred. Maybe he needs flowers sprouting from the 4 tips of his swastika. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 17:37, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

As a counter to the use of the ugly symbol of Nazism, I've created this: File:Peace Nazi.png. If the guy had that in his infobox, maybe he would have more credibility? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 20:43, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

I don't know if Thonos is substituting a generic racist userbox to get his "Disclaimer", but that disclaimer is exactly the same as that of User:Me ne frego, who is a sockpuppet of Giornorosso. Some of the non-race-related interests, such as weather, are shared between Thonos and Giornorosso. Quigley (talk) 20:54, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Me ne frego means "I don't care" in Italian, for what it's worth. It's not a generic userbox, it's a hand-constructed one. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 20:58, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

The exact same "disclaimer"? Why is he not blocked indefinitely as a quack-tacularly obvious sock of Giornorosso? Seriously. Doc talk 21:13, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

I laughed too hard at your peace nazi image to not make a little crack. -- ۩ Mask

Im still working on that. At infobox size, the dove is too small. Or to put it another way, I need to give the swastika a bigger bird. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 21:33, 3 June 2011 (UTC) Looks a little better now. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 22:07, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

False sockpuppetry accusation

Hi, I have been accused of being the "sockpuppet" of a registered user when I am not. These IP adresses are all mine: 78.176.91.37, 85.103.166.64, 85.103.129.110. I have requested an official review of the block yesterday in the talk page of the IP ] but nobody gave an answer until now. Then, I also notified the blocking administrator for this issue

You can also read my defense in here:

Despite all these, the administrator HelloAnnyong recently blocked that IP as well and also extended the punishment of the registered user.

I wonder what should I be doing at that point, clearly blocking administrator HelloAnnyong is not interested in reading the defense of the accused party.

Thus, briefly re-state my defense in here: -Firstly, The registered user participates in wikipedia from Cyprus, I am from Istanbul.

-Secondly, the only reason why we ended up being editing the same articles because I was following the editor Nipsonanomhmata as he was deleting cited content from several articles, for instance here: and here: These two editors have a history of edit-warring with each other and this is the only reason why I am being accused of being a sockpuppet.

-Thirdly, I and the said user are in fact have one time a little disagreement over the content; he thought that a particular quotation can be used by rewording and shortening when I strongly believed that this has to be a full quotation, thus changed his version, in here:

Not being a registered user, I honestly can not understant how come two persons who do not know each other can be accused and punished without the slightests of an evidence.

--78.176.80.214 (talk) 16:30, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Wait, what? You admit to using multiple IPs to edit, but you're not the master? All of your IPs geolocate to Istanbul, which the last time I checked, is in Turkey. And Seksen iki yüz kırk beş (talk · contribs) admits that they're fluent in Turkish and are active on the Turkish Misplaced Pages. If you're not the master, then why are you coming to his/her defense? — HelloAnnyong 16:53, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Like I said, someone's got a shiny new boomerang. They threw it in exactly the wrong way though. =( Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | Say Shalom! 16:56, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Just to point out, I initially blocked Seksen and one of the other IPs on behavioral evidence based on the similarities between these two edits. There was a little more evidence, but per WP:BEANS, I'd rather not divulge it entirely. — HelloAnnyong 16:57, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Those similarities, between one only edit each from each user, seem pretty thin block evidence to me considering the apparent evidence of the users living a very long distance apart - see my further comments below. And if there is more "beans" evidence, could you share it with someone else? I'd promise to keep it confidential if you'd email me with it -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:05, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Above comments actually prove me right, you do not read the defending party before making a decision.

To answer your comments, of course all the IP's are going to "geolocate" Turkey because all are mine. The registered user is from Cyprus not from Turkey, two different countries. And here is my defense for having multiple IP's: ] which says I have a dynamic IP adress, which can change over the course of time when I am using the same computer. Is there any wikipedia rule that prohibits IP adresses to make edits?

And about your supposed proof; A registered user deletes a properly cited quotation and I revert his changes explaining my reasons to do so:

The same user again deletes the same quotaion and this time the registered user Seksen shorthens and transforms this direct quotation to a single sentence

Then, disagreeing with that decision of Seksen I actually restore the quotation back:

It needs to be added this quotation is included in the wikipedia by neither me nor by the registered user, it seems it has been there for years. Both of us simply tried to protect that quotation from deletion which made us the same person.

You also asked me that: "If you're not the master, then why are you coming to his/her defense?"

Seriously what kind of a question is that? You are making a clear mistake, accuse and punish two different people for a thing they have not done and then ask me why am I coming to his defense. I do come only to my own defense first of all, while pointing out the mistake you are doing as an administrator.

--78.176.80.214 (talk) 17:16, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

• Just speaking Turkish and being active on the Turkish Misplaced Pages doesn't mean someone has to be in Istanbul and doesn't make them a sockmaster - loose criteria like that would make everyone on the English Misplaced Pages socks, for one thing. Also, people on dynamic IPs do get them changed, and with some ISPs in some countries it can be very frequent (and some people switch their modems off after every session, so will always get a new IP). If User:Seksen iki yüz kırk beş really is in Cyprus (where there are a lot of Turks), and the IPs geolocate to Istanbul, then there is no sock case. Can anyone do a checkuser to find out (but only tell us "not connected" results etc, obviously don't state where the register user actually is)? -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:30, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes, half of Cyprus is occupied by Turkey, so it's really not uncommon for a Cypriot to be fluent in Turkish.--Atlan (talk) 17:34, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

At User talk:Seksen iki yüz kırk beş, he points out that Northern Cyprus ISPs are handled from Mersin in Turkey, which really is a very long way from Istanbul, and invites a checkuser - and he does stress a number of times in that page that he's a Turkish Cypriot, but nobody seems to be prepared to listen -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:39, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Some comments:

• The restoration of that passage by the IP looks a priori legitimate. I have never heard of that particular peninsula, but Greek atrocities to the Turks did happen and are (according to an informant who is a great fan of both Greek and Turkish culture and speaks modern Greek) the reason for the later atrocities by Turks to Greeks. Greeks are generally only aware of the retaliation, though.
• Editing from dial-up IPs without creating an account is totally legitimate, so there was nothing wrong with the first change of IPs.
• When the second IP was blocked, the user apparently acquired a new IP to defend themselves. While this is maybe not the approved way of doing things, it's not deceptive at all and should not be held against the user. Hans Adler 17:37, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Considering the IP first edited right at the time Seksen iki yüz kırk beş (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) was blocked , and that it shows knowledge of Misplaced Pages policies and terminology, we are either dealing with a) sockpuppetry via a proxy or some other way to disguise one's IP, or b) meatpuppetry. But there's definitely something fishy here. Athenean (talk) 18:07, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

It's a dynamic IP, so you have no idea when the *person* first started editing or how much Misplaced Pages experience they have -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:24, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

I personally use several ISPs. A couple are located in the United States. Others are located in Europe and others in the Far East and Australasia. The IP addresses that these ISPs use are allocated by their location. I can access these ISPs directly from one PC or remotely from a laptop or any other PC that is connected to the Internet (from anywhere in the world). If I use a Remote Access Server I can use an IP address that says I'm American (from a number of different states), European (from a number of different countries) and Taiwanese or Australian. I could be located in Sri Lanka and you will be convinced by my IP address that I am located in Taiwan. I personally choose to access Misplaced Pages using the same dynamically allocated range of IP addresses from one ISP. The effort required to wreak havoc on Misplaced Pages is minimal when you have the technology at your disposal. There is no technical difficulty in editing from an IP address in Mersin and an IP address in Istanbul. But that is not to say that this is what is happening here. I am just informing you of what is possible. But now I'm just giving you all ideas as per WP:BEANS.  Nipsonanomhmata  18:39, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Sure, it's possible for people to use different ISPs - I have ISPs in the UK and Thailand, and I can route via either from either country. But it's actually pretty uncommon for people to use two or more widely separated ISPs, and we need a lot more than knowing such a thing is possible when blocking people - we need evidence that they actually did it, and we need to actually listen to and consider the defenses offered by the accused rather than just ignoring them -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk)

What concerns me, and which is why I raised the concern, is the timing and the seamlessness between the edits of one IP address and the next IP address. It is more than coincidence and easily passes the WP:DUCK test. If the IP addresses are not sockpuppets, then the IP addresses are meatpuppets, and if the owners of the IP addresses did not communicate with eachother then the meatpuppet-like IP addresses were just plain unlucky to have got involved when they did. Let's face it an IP address with a short history does not have a very long watchlist. There is no way of definitely proving that they did or did not communicate with eachother to co-ordinate their efforts. Either way the blocking penalties are currently no greater than one calendar month. That is not a long time penalty for all the effort that we have all been put through to reduce the disruption.  Nipsonanomhmata  19:14, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Sure, I'm not suggesting there was no disruption, I'm just primarily disturbed that the accused users' defenses were being totally ignored - it read to me like "You're condemned and you have no right to be listened to". But I do actually think the escalation to 1 month is too long for such a weak SPI result, for a user who may well be innocent (though we await further investigation) -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 19:27, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Boing, if you actually take a look at the previous case for Seksen, the admin who reset his block the first time actually called for an indef this time around. I figured that a month would be a better choice. — HelloAnnyong 23:23, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

In this case, if two editors having the ability to use a common language edit the same article during the same day, this means that they are sockpuppets.

Then I wonder what happens if three editors having the ability to use the same language do the same. Editors Nipsonanomhmata (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), Athenean (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and Alexikoua (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) similary involved in the same edit warring of the same article, where I and Seksen are accused of commiting sockpupettry, making quite similar comments with each other. In a line of continuum during the same day, first the user Athenean deleted the sourced content: then the editor Alexikoua deleted it providing almost the exact same excuses andfinally the user Nipsonanomhmata deleted that passage as well By merely restoring their deletions, we have ended up being the guilty, disruptive, sockpuppet.

In view of the comments by the editor Nipsonanomhmata, how come we can be sure of these three editors are not suckpuppets or meatpuppets, especially since Nipsonanomhmata admits that he "personally use several IP's"?

I do not want to develop a counter accusation, my point is simple; different people can have similar reactions and without you having any proof you can not accuse them of being the same person. As I have repateadly said, I have no relation whatsoever with the registered user Seksen.--78.176.80.214 (talk) 20:04, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

This is turning into just a content dispute. Three Greek editors edit one way, 2/3 Turkish or Turkish-Cypriot editors edit another way. yawn and big surprise. Meatpuppets? It's like accusing all Greek or all turkish editors of beiing meatpuppets. DeCausa (talk) 20:58, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Doesn't anybody else think that it is weird to be having meaningful discussions with IP addresses, who are communicating without registered userids, but clearly have lots of experience on Misplaced Pages? I think it's pretty weird. I also think that we are wasting our time.  Nipsonanomhmata  23:44, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

There is nothing too special about that. With IP addresses from California (especially 75.*.*.*) we can see this all the time. One of them is a member of WikiProject Mathematics. Hans Adler 09:03, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Resumed threats from Tokerdesigner

• Tokerdesigner (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Cannabis smoking (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Several editors have been maintaining quality of some cannabis articles subject to fluff edits and vandalism. I have had to revert Tokerdesigner's edits several times. He once made a run on many articles I wrote in retaliation, and today left a message threatening the same on my talk page, literally threatening the notability of the 44 film articles I've contributed. Please read the message carefully as it is typical of his threats. Standard methods of mediation don't work with this user. I don't feel like defending my 44 articles. Can someone help? Mainly see history of article Cannabis smoking. In addition I have archived a multitude of threats, retaliatory and insults from Tokerdesigner. I need this to stop.Mjpresson (talk) 21:17, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

This is the message on my talk page to which I responded on User talk:Mjpresson:

== June 2011 ==

Please do not add unsourced content, as you did to Cannabis smoking. This contravenes Misplaced Pages's policy on verifiability. If you continue to do so, you may be blocked from editing Misplaced Pages.

That above addition was not left by me. It's Tokerdesigner, who didn't sign his entry above. Yes and I will continue to warn him for disruption but that does not warrant threatening me and the articles I've written.Mjpresson (talk) 22:22, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Why isn't this inquiry getting any response?Mjpresson (talk) 22:23, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

What would you like an administrator to do about this? Where are these threats you're talking about? How can someone "threaten notability"? You're not making a good case here, I think that's why you're getting no response. I'm not saying there's nothing for an admin to do about it, but you have to give us something to work with. -- Atama頭 23:25, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Wow. Super good help. Did you even read the bizarre comments and threats which include asking to meet me in person? It's all quite obvious if you read what I asked you to read. Perhaps I neglected to mention I had to archive them all. When I revert or warn user he threatens to tag 44 articles I've contributed for notability. He's already done retaliatory hits on my articles. I can deal with this myself, apparently. At least my complaint is documented here, although blown off. I've been here a while and know what to do, or maybe someone else is able to help me. Please at least read the comment he left on my talk page as it's typical response to simple and civil reversions and warnings. I knew I would regret trying to improve the cannabis articles. --Mjpresson (talk) 00:33, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Mjpresson seems to be referring to . Chester Markel (talk) 07:59, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Quack

I've just indeffed Bradford Guitar Boy 2011 (talk · contribs) as a sock of Bradford Guitar Boy (talk · contribs), who I indeffed a while back for edit warring. the 2011 account has inserted the same material against consensus. Is there really any need for a SPI, or is the duck test enough here? Mjroots (talk) 19:28, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Looks like this may pass the duh test nevermind the duck test. Wildthing61476 (talk) 19:37, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Yeah. A clerk would reject any SPI as unnecessary unless we're dealing with a prolific socker or there's a possibility of sleepers based on behavior. —Jeremy v^_^v 19:45, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Stubborn refusal to accept consensus by User:Jfitch

User:Jfitch is a semi-regular editor who is consistently inserting a specific image into two articles, despite accepted consensus to use another. See the lead image of Alexz Johnson and Jude Harrison, which is currently the version that was promoted as a 'featured picture' at FPC (a promotion which Jfitch opposed). The original nomination discussion is here: Misplaced Pages:Featured picture candidates/Alexz Johnson. After being on the verge of three reverts on at least two occasions, his reversal of the image was left in place for months until another discussion took place here: Misplaced Pages:Featured picture candidates/delist/File:2099725 FreightElevator 135wb.jpg. It's also been discussed here: Talk:Alexz Johnson#Lead image. Jfitch stubbornly insists that only his opinion of the image to use is right, despite the discussions linked which clearly overrule him. This dispute has been going on since September of last year. There isn't much that I can do as I'm involved, and he refuses to back off. I would like to think that uninvolved users can tell him to drop it already and leave the image alone. Please? This is getting superbly tiresome. Maedin\ 19:49, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Good lord. Is this really an edit war over an obnoxiously small change in the complexion of a photograph? Resolute 20:09, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

The issue was never discussed as people are claiming. The featured picture discussion was. I have left that discussion alone entirely as you are correct, people decided to feature the edited image. I am not opposing a feature any more, that discussion has happened and moved on. The issue here is replacing images in articles with inaccurate ones. The article images are professional images and are accurate of the circumstances they were taken in. The arguement of 'guessing' what the picture should look like in order to make it more 'accurate' is simply ridicolous as the photo is of a fictional character. The character only exists in the mind of the creators. The creators provided the pictures stating that this is what the character looks like. It's not for anyone here to tell them that they are wrong and decide what it 'should' look like and then try to place this in an article as 'accurate'. This is the issue that hasn't been discussed ad resolved as people are trying to say. The place this can happen is on the article's talk page. Which is where the issue was started to be discussed but clearly nothing determined. Talk:Jude_Harrison. Please refrain from reverting edits based on things that simply didn't happen. JFitch (talk) 20:38, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Both editors are edit-warring at Alexz Johnson and Jude Harrison over the white balance (!) of the lead image. To get them to stop, I am blocking both for 24 hours. After the block expires, they should resolve their disagreement per WP:DR without resorting to further reverts. Some advice: (a) consensus about which version of a picture should be marked as featured is not the same thing as consensus about which version to use in an article; and (b) any consensus or lack thereof is not a justification for edit-warring.  Sandstein  20:48, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

I don't think a block was necessary at this point. Neither of them broke WP:3RR and there is no indication that they would have done so. An official warning probably would have been equally effective and much less drastic. Maedin should have known better of course but I think Jfitch (talk · contribs) is probably not experienced enough to know that. Regards SoWhy 21:01, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

After reconsideration and discussion with Maedin on their talk page, I agree and have unblocked Maedin. JFitch, on the other hand, has been more clearly edit-warring (including a revert just after their post above), and has previously been warned against edit-warring, which is why I'm not unblocking them.  Sandstein  21:24, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

I've unblocked the admin as a matter of urgency. I don't think we should be standing on each other's feet, and the fact that they drew attention to the issue exonerates them imo. Samsara (FA • FP) 21:24, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

As I said above, I was just about to unblock Maedin; you seem to have been slightly faster. Nonetheless, I do not believe that administrators should get special treatment when applying standard conduct policy; on the contrary they should be held to a higher standard of conduct.  Sandstein  21:29, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

You should know to carefully review cases if a long-standing previously fault-free admin is a party and is actively seeking comment. Regards. Samsara (FA • FP) 21:40, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

X-Men First Class

Can an admin please review the following pages in light of certain moves and fix them (and probably revert the moves)? It does not appear that they were correctly moved, and there is an ongoing discussion at WT:COMICS about their placement anyway. The original setup was the comic series at X-Men: First Class and the film article at X-Men: First Class (film). Erik (talk | contribs) 20:29, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

• X-Men: First Class (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• X-Men: First Class (film) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• X-Men: First Class (comic series) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

The discussion (which I didn't participate in) stopped about two days ago. I don't think there is much disagreement, from looking at it, that the film is considerably more notable than the comic book series, by a significant margin. The main issue with the moves I made seems to me to be the page histories, which are mixed up a little. Everything else looks fine (at least to me). All Hallow's Wraith (talk) 20:33, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

80000 edits, and you don't know not to do cut-and-paste moves? In any case, I _think_ it's fixed now -- wouldn't swear to it, though. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:41, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

It wouldn't let me move the film page into simply X-Men: First Class, because that page already existed. Hence I cut and pasted. All Hallow's Wraith (talk) 20:46, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Cutting and pasting causes licensing violations. If you cannot move a page, you can list it at WP:RM either as uncontroversial or as part of a request to move that involves discussion. Erik (talk | contribs) 21:01, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Walter Görlitz and Twinkle

• Walter_Görlitz (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Relevant policy: Second paragraph

I am getting no where with this user, I think partly because of past. So I'll just quickly outline the last incident with them and Twinkle abuse. The ANI thread from that incident is here. Basically Walter violated 3RR by restoring content that violated the non-free content criteria and incorrectly called another edit vandalism. I temporarily removed access to Twinkle, and restored it later after it seemed apparent that the problem would not continue. It may also be worth noting this ANI thread, although I am not so familiar with it. But these kinds of edits, linked to from there, display the same problems.

Now, Walter is yet again misusing Twinkle and incorrectly calling other edits vandalism, with this edit. I brought this up on his talk page, but he does not appear to be willing to discuss this issue with me, as shown by this sarcastic response, and frankly, after his edit summary here I am no longer particularly keen to discuss this directly with him myself. He seems to think that the Football WikiProject has the authority to make their own policy and put them into practice without input from the wider community. It seems apparent to me that he is not willing to consider that the edit he reverted was not, in fact, vandalism. The latest argument seems to be that his other work excuses him. He skirts around the actual issue (of misusing rollback), basely accuses me of hounding, or talks about if the edit was "correct" or not (which as I explained to him, is a different issue, and "incorrect" is distinct from "vandalism"). This is becoming disruptive, especially his accusations of hounding. Please read the discussion on his talkpage for the full context. I would appreciate some input and advice from others regarding this. Thanks, - Kingpin (talk) 22:10, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

• Please see my talk page. He is essentially hounding me and abusing his power and attempting to intimidate me, which is what happened the last time he accused me of abusing Twinkle.

The issue is simple and I have answered his question, but on my terms. I acted in good faith and marked an edit that I perceived as vandalism as vandalism. The editor who made it refuses to discuss the issue despite being warned. At the time I accepted that it was a policy. It seems not everyone agrees it is and so I am discussing a change and I have determined not to assume it is until consensus has been reached on the matter. However, at the time, I was acting in good faith, and as such did not abuse Twinkle. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:27, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Again, if the edit was correct or not is a non-issue, if you were reverting it because of this policy you keep talking about (and still haven't linked to) you should have said as much in your summary, instead of hitting rollback (VANDAL). Just because you are acting in good faith does not mean you're not abusing (i.e. improperly using) Twinkle. You still appear to be unable to accept that the user was not vandalising. Do you still "perceive" the edit as vandalism? - Kingpin (talk) 22:35, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Again, that the edit was or wasn't correct is the only issue. If someone does something not in good faith, that is vandalism. If someone writes obscenities on a page, that is vandalism. If someone refuses to discuss why they think they're not following a policy and continue to edit in such a way as to go against that policy, that is vandalism. Based on my understanding, the editor was vandalizing. There's nothing to accept to the contrary.

I can't link to the policy because there isn't a policy. That was pointed-out later. However I linked to the place where someone said it was a policy. Sorry you didn't see that. I took the other editor's word. That is good faith. I attempted to discuss with the other editor. That is good faith. I only made edits that were in keeping with the policy. That is good faith. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:45, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

I see nothing to suggest it wasn't in good faith (hence, it wasn't vandalism). It wasn't adding obscenities. There was no such policy. Please try to keep it relevant to the issue at hand.

Oh right, so now you decide to say there is no such policy. When exactly did you become aware of this? - Kingpin (talk) 22:57, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

I know now that there wasn't a policy, but at the time, and based on the discussion I referenced, I assumed that there was a policy. Hence in my mind there was a policy. Hence my actions were based on the policy. Hence my use of Twinkle was in good faith and the other editor's actions were vandalism. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:12, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

"If someone refuses to discuss why they think they're not following a policy and continue to edit in such a way as to go against that policy, that is vandalism." No it isn't. We have a very clear definition of vandalism at WP:VAND. In the section giving examples of what isn't vandalism, I see numerous examples of policy violations that aren't vandalism. You are following your own invented definition, and have replied sarcastically when it is pointed out to you. Since you insist on misusing Twinkle, I don't see why it shouldn't be revoked. -- Atama頭 23:17, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

I already said that your good faith doesn't really matter, although I'm not saying you were not acting in good faith. Again, when exactly did you become aware that there was no such policy? - Kingpin (talk) 23:22, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

That wasn't sarcasm. That was irony. Good to know that my good faith doesn't matter. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:27, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Vandalism is any addition, removal, or change of content in a deliberate attempt to compromise the integrity of Misplaced Pages.

That editor's action were deliberately compromising the integrity of Misplaced Pages by going against what I perceived as a policy.

Your actions are also deliberately compromising the integrity of Misplaced Pages by attacking an editor who is acting in good faith. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:29, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Wait. The other editor was deliberately going against a nonexistent policy? In any case, as pointed out by Atama, policy violations are not vandalism. —DoRD (talk) 23:34, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Good faith is appreciated, however, on the subject of if you were abusing Twinkle or not, it is less relevant than you seem to think. Just because a user is violating a policy does not mean they are vandalising, as Atama pointed out. Now please, when exactly did you learn that that policy didn't even exist? Also, this is probably a bad time and place to be accusing Atama of vandalism (or me for that matter, it's not quite clear who that was directed at). - Kingpin (talk) 23:36, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Whether or not your actions were in good faith, they were wrong. Twinkle is a tool that can cause havoc if it's in the hands of someone who doesn't understand Misplaced Pages well enough to use it safely. "Vandal" is one of the nastiest words we have on Misplaced Pages, and reverting edits as vandalism that aren't can cause a lot of harm, our policy on vandalism says as much. If this was a simple mistake that you would try not to repeat in the future, that's one thing. But you're being willful in your misuse, you're even accusing anyone who criticizes your actions as being disruptive. Frankly, the only reason why your Twinkle use hasn't been revoked is because I can't find where the blacklist for it is. -- Atama頭 23:56, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Yet again, it does not matter if it is, or was, policy. It does not mean that the edit is or is not vandalism. As I've said already several times on your talk page, and others have said here: The issue of if the edit is "correct" or not is distinct from the issue of if it was vandalism, and if you were right to revert it as such.

Walter clearly is not capable of correctly identifying what is not vandalism, and is clearly unwilling to learn, I would support removing his access to Twinkle at this time. I'm interested in what others think about this? - Kingpin (talk) 00:03, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Well, as I already said, I would have just done it myself, but don't know where the blacklist is with the new Twinkle version. So of course I support this. -- Atama頭 00:08, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Here's a general question: What are the criteria for giving a user the authority to do mass-updates like this Twinkle thing does? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:13, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I think the only requirement is that an editor is registered. It might also require that they are autoconfirmed, I'm not sure. But it's basically open to anyone as long as they don't misuse it. Getting Twinkle access involves putting a checkbox on your preferences page. -- Atama頭 00:17, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I see it on the "gadgets" page. Seems like there should be some kind of training or minimum-knowledge test before someone launches that kind of tool. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:37, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Actually I am capable of both understanding what identifying what vandalism as, and am quite willing to learn. My actions were done in good faith and will not happen again if I am permitted to use Twinkle. Without it, I doubt that I will continue editing on Misplaced Pages. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:16, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm in agreement, clearly not able to identify what's long understood to be vandalism. If you are willing to act in such a drastic manner on the basis of a hazy understanding of policy, you should lose twinkle until you can demonstrate a better understanding of what vandalism is and what it is not. RxS (talk) 00:18, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

So, you're threatening to leave Misplaced Pages if Twinkle is taken away? I don't have the words. -- Atama頭 00:20, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

The guy's been here since October of 2004 and doesn't know what vandalism is? If he wants to leave, don't stand in his way. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:31, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Not really threatening, I'm just saying I'll have to re-evaluate whether I can do the things I do now without it. If it's more difficult to edit, I don't know if there's a reason to stay. However, I do see the value in educating people rather than punishing them. Often, an explanation is all that is needed to educate, and that's what has happened here. That's what happened the last time Kingpin explained something. I learned, I adapted, and I'm a better editor as a result. Iterative learning is learning too. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:32, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

As for not "knowing" what vandalism is, that's not quite correct. I don't read all of the policy pages. I learn as I go along. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:32, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

You've been here longer than I have, and years ago I learned what vandalism is. It's hard to imagine how you could have been here 7 years and still not known what vandalism is. Do you also have the rollback feature? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:36, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Walter only has Reviewer status. -- Atama頭 00:53, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

I haven't taken the time to seek out the wikipedia definition of vandalism and I have learned a lot through discussion. If nothing has changed since earlier today, I should still have rollback status. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:57, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

If by "I have learned a lot from discussion", you mean that you now understand why that sort of edit is not vandalism, and that you have learned what we mean by vandalism, and that you understand how carefully twinkle must be used, I'm not sure it's necessary to prevent you from using it, though I would advise a careful review of our policies in general. Otherwise, I think we do not have the option of removing it by protecting the javascript page, as we could have done previously, but we certainly can still say we would block someone if they continued to use it after we found they were using it improperly. DGG ( talk ) 01:11, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Since the middle of May my understanding has changed. Going against policy is not vandalism. Furthermore, going against what I perceive as a policy but actually isn't one is not only ignorant, it's probably closer to vandalism than the original actions. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:58, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Something's out of whack here. You don't even have to have "read the policy" to know what vandalism is, because it is very frequently discussed. I ask again: How can an editor be here for 7 years and have no earthly clue about what vandalism is??? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 01:42, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

It's not discussed where I edit.

To suggest that I have no earthly clue is hyperbole as well. I do understand what vandalism is. We learned about it in Western Civilization. They're the people who sacked Rome around the fifth century. They wrote graffito on walls and made life miserable for the civilized world. Etymologically, it now means people who deliberately damage things. So since that and Misplaced Pages's definition don't quite line up, that's what's a bit out of whack.

The editor in question was deliberately damaging what I understood to be consensus, and refused to discuss changes. That to me is vandalism. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:54, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

The definition you link above is irrelevant. The one you need to read and understand, which has been pointed out to you a number of times recently, is WP:VAND. —DoRD (talk) 01:58, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

I actually like the second definition at Cambridge more any activity that is considered to be damaging or destroying something that was good. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 02:00, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

WP:VAND doesn't contradict those, but elaborates for Misplaced Pages-specific purposes. In this case, any good-faith edit is not vandalism. The dictionary covers the general purpose definition. You're not helping yourself in the slightest by bringing in different dictionaries. If you don't want to take the good-faith aspect into account, then allow me to remove your dictionary citing edits as "vandalism." Ian.thomson (talk) 02:04, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Walter Görlitz has not only demonstrated a misunderstanding of WP:VAND, xe has also demonstrated misunderstanding of what is, and is not, policy - and the fundamental way that Misplaced Pages operates. Xe seems to think that a brief discussion amongst a project group defines policy, and that such can be considered policy until consensus determines otherwise. Xe has adamantly refused to abide by actual, existing policies and guidelines, citing such things as an essay (WP:RECENT), and "WP Footbal group policy" . In the discussion, xe wrote, Misplaced Pages is still not a scoreboard. Period. Nothing you say can convince me that this should change. If people continue to misuse Misplaced Pages, Chzz too, they should be warned and then banned if it continues. .  Chzz  ►  03:02, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

If you notice in that discussion there is a comment it states that there is a policy: "this policy is hard to apply". My mistake was taking the editor's word for it and acting on it without asking to point to the actual policy.

Chzz has not actually pointed to any existing policies or guidelines that contradict WP:RECENT and to the best of my recollection has only pointed to an edit by Misplaced Pages founder Jimmy Wales immediately after someone in a wedding said "I do" as if to imply Mr. Wales runs wikipedia. He is just one voice of many.

There are other editors who think as I do on the subject. My stand in the comment as quoted was one diametrically opposed to another editor's stance so as to generate further discussion. If anyone continues to do this - particularly if they misuse rollback, Walter - I think they could be classed as being disruptive. Despite me not commenting for several days on the thread. I simply turned the phrase back. I further understand what vandalism is now as a result of today's discussions, however that doesn't change my position on that Misplaced Pages is not a scoreboard. I don't believe that this discussion belongs here. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:30, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

It's merely a perception, which has been getting increasingly more popular, of what construes vandalism – which is any edit in which another user disagrees with. –MuZemike 03:55, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) I don't see why this shouldn't be treated like any other newbie user to twinkle who misuses the "vandal" button on it. Given this is apparently not WG's first visit to ANI over such an issue, why should anyone believe they actually do, honestly, swear-to-god, understand what constitutes vandalism? Take away Twinkle and let him edit normally. Stuff can be reverted without Twinkle, and I think taking away TW would force WG to be more open to discussion over edits he disagrees with. Strange Passerby (talk • cont) 03:59, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Second that. If you don't know what vandalism is then you shouldn't educate others by labeling edits as it incorrectly, like the diff provided in the beginning of the thread. Taking away Twinkle (or Rollback) shouldn't make an editor quit if they're here to do it right. Doc talk 04:14, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Because I have shown that I can learn and I have demonstrated good use of the tool. The previous time was not for the same reason, but for a similar one. In the previous discussion, I didn't assume that the editor was acting in good faith. In this one, I attempted to discuss with the editor and the editor refused. I had to use a blunt instrument to get the editor's attention. However, had I understood at the time that I was not actually enforcing a policy but a strongly held conviction of many in the Football group I wouldn't even have done that. Again, I do know what vandalism is. Again, I didn't say I would quit, but that I would have to reconsider how I edit. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:18, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Furthermore, since WP:VANDALISM apparently doesn't contradict "any activity that is considered to be damaging or destroying something that was good" and I felt the editor was destroying something that was good, vis: an agreement, I do understand what vandalism is.—Walter Görlitz (talk • contribs) 04:20, 4 June 2011

(edit conflict) If you label an edit as vandalism when it's not, it's either being lazy or not understanding the concept. "Undo" allows you to use an edit summary, and is far more likely to educate an editor when it is clearly not vandalism. But this has been pointed out. Don't quit, and learn from this. Doc talk 04:27, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Walter Görlitz, you ask for some specific policy. Are you familiar with the WP:3RR policy? You breached it, in removing the score four times; .  Chzz  ►  04:21, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Is adding an HTML comment removing information or is the removing of the comment?

As for a policy, that's not the one I was asking about. I was asking for one that opposed WP:RECENT and you knew that. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:44, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) TW should not be used as a "blunt instrument". If you cannot get your message across then either you are saying it wrong or you should seek assistance from another person. - Sitush (talk) 04:24, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. Most of the rest of the football project were watching the match that day. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:44, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Walter stills seems to be trying to nuance his definition of vandalism into Wikipedias. He seems to be saying that since his dictionary understanding of the word doesn't contradict how policy defines it, he understands it. I don't think the message is totally getting through, and I think his access to twinkle should be removed for now. He can still edit, I just don't feel comfortable with his attitude. RxS (talk) 04:49, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Sorry that's not what I was going for. What I was trying to say was that a week ago, that was closer to my definition. As of today's discussion I understand more fully what Misplaced Pages's definition is and I will adjust my understanding to match that of Misplaced Pages's while editing. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:02, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Walter Görlitz - A "revert" means any edit (or administrative action) that reverses the actions of other editors, in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material. It can involve as little as one word. WP:3RR. I would think it utterly obvious that <!-- commenting out --> text in an article is 'reversing actions' - it removes the content from display in the article - and is absolutely no different to removing it, for these purposes.  Chzz  ►  04:54, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Why have you hijacked the discussion about his use of Twinkle into one about a content dispute? This really isn't the place to settle the content issue. Strange Passerby (talk • cont) 05:24, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Sincere apologies; sorry, you're quite right. I've collapsed it. I guess this isn't the right place for that discussion. It got side-tracked; my fault. Feel free to remove it, if that's preferred.  Chzz  ►  05:30, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Allow me take a different approach

If an editor consistently makes edits against consensus, without discussing the reasons for doing so, would that constitute vandalism? At the time, that was my perception of what was happening. It was my understanding that this editor's actions were detrimental to the image of Misplaced Pages. It seems that what editors are focusing on are my actions without understanding or accepting my perception of the situation. They are focusing on the way I marked the actions as vandalism when they would not have. They are focusing on how many edits I made. They are not focusing on whether I believed that I was actually preventing vandalism or not. At the time, I honestly believed I was preventing vandalism. If the match were tomorrow and I had gone through this discussion, I would not believed that it is vandalism thanks to discussions with several editors. However, my use of Twinkle has correctly identified vandalism on many occasions and so what is at question is the one edit a week ago, which as I said above. I sincerely believed the other editor was not acting in good faith by not discussing his changes, which were also against WP:3RR. I sincerely believed the other editor was not acting in good faith by going against what I perceived as consensus. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:24, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

"If an editor consistently makes edits against consensus, without discussing the reasons for doing so, would that constitute vandalism?" No. That's not vandalism. Vandalism is when a person is intentionally trying to damage an article in some way. A person going against consensus is still trying to improve the article, they are just going about it the wrong way. And again, we get it, you thought you were using Twinkle properly. We're not accusing you of misusing Twinkle on purpose. But you still misused it, and even worse, you either ignored others who told you that you were misusing it, or accused them of being disruptive for trying to hinder your efforts.

Here's some advice in the future, when you're trying to determine if something is vandalism or not (whether or not you do so using Twinkle)... Go to WP:VANDTYPES. See if the edit falls under any of those specific categories. If it doesn't clearly fit any of those descriptions, it isn't vandalism. For example, look on the list, and see if "editing against consensus" is on that list. -- Atama頭 06:50, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Question

I've recently run across an extremely experienced and valuable user who seems to be very upset and despondent. I really hate to start any "dramaz" threads, and I would be very surprised if it could be found that I have ever started more than 3 or 4 AN, ANI, etc. threads in my tenure here. To the point. When I click on a link to talk to User talk:Dr. Blofeld, it seems to redirect me to his user page. I'm somewhat reluctant to edit another editors "user page", but I'm not sure how to "talk" to this person. I do understand that there are many issues which have upset this editor. My question is: "How do we talk to someone who has his user talk page established as a redirect"? — Ched :  ?  06:11, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

At this point, I'm not even sure how to notify him of this posting. — Ched :  ?  06:13, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

He did it himself. Send him an e-mail or post on his page and see how that goes. Not really an ANI issue, though. Doc talk 06:18, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

He seems to no longer be active on English Misplaced Pages. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:27, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, but then he made a bunch of edits after that notification. You haven't seen "inactive" declarations before either? Oy, vey! Doc talk 06:37, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

"User talk pages should not redirect to anything other than the talk page of an account controlled by the same user.". Dougweller (talk) 10:12, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Branko Lustig wiki page and User:Biblbroks

Biblbroks is making constant changes on Branko Lustig Wiki page that make no sense. This, in my opinion, borders with vandalism. Please advise what to do. Thank you.--Eversman (talk) 09:15, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

User PMDrive1061

I want to bring you to the attention of this admin; User:PMDrive1061 , who made snarky comments against another user (User:Joker264) whom he banned for simply stating his mind. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.180.10.107 (talk) 09:23, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Considering these edits, , & I would say good block--Jac16888 09:37, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

And in light of this IP edit, I'd suggest semi-protecting User talk:Joker264. Voceditenore (talk) 09:47, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Can someone remind me what we do about minors?

I'm concerned about the user and talk pages of a young teenager as they have a lot of personal information - family, school, general location. I should know the answer I'm sure, but can't find guidelines about this. Thanks. Dougweller (talk) 10:08, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Typically what I've seen done is that we contact the user, asking them to remove the info, and then get everything oversighted. --Rschen7754 10:13, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

a) email functionaries-enlists.wikimedia.org and let them (quietly) sort out any significant issues, before drawing attention to anything.

b) after that has been sorted out, refer them to Misplaced Pages:Guidance for younger editors  Chzz  ►  10:16, 4 June 2011 (UTC)