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User talk:Δ/20110601

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by MiszaBot III (talk | contribs) at 19:20, 4 June 2011 (Archiving 1 thread(s) from User talk:Δ.). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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This is an archive of past discussions with User:Δ. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.


Thoughts on the AN discussion

I find the fact that many people are seeking more restrictions on me asinine. Other than the one outburst I have remained very civil. If you don't like policy get it changed, don't shoot the messenger. Here is a counter proposal, people want me to communicate more, when I do communicate people don't listen, take for example the issue with currency recently, there where countless notification across multiple talk pages and wikiprojects. The users dont give a fuck until me and Hammersoft actually start removing the overuse (after a month of attempted discussions). Also take a look at Template:Politics of South Africa I left a explicitly clear reason for the edit twice and was reverted both times because of WP:ILIKEIT completely ignoring the core policy which is non-negotiable about NFC in userspace/templates. Here is my proposal create standard set of templates (the uw style works well) about incorrect usage of NFC, add it to twinkle and stress that files must be left out until the issues are resolved with them. If the issues are not resolved and the users insist on ignoring policy, admins must be willing to step in, and either protect the image free article, delete said files, or block the user until they get the point. I often try to explain NFC but too many users refuse to listen. Adding more restrictions on me will not solve the problem, we need a wider community push to get files in line with policy. This worked fairly well back in 2007-2008 with both the TV episode image removal and the push to ensure that all files have at least one rationale. Another request that should be made, (and Ive asked for this for years and have been ignored) is that admins who monitor both my talk page and the discussions I'm in would actually do something about the personal attacks directed towards me, instead of ignoring them, we could avoid situations like what recently happened when I was insulted and attacked one too many times by the same user. ΔT 14:42, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

NFC warning templates would be useful - perhaps you could draft something for that. I would also be willing to conditionally unblock you in order to participate in (i) the AN discussion about your possible sanction and (ii) the NFCC enforcement RFC. (This would be under a very generous interpretation of Misplaced Pages:BLOCK#Temporary_circumstances_unblocks, because of the role of NFCC in your editing and in your edit restrictions.) Editing any other pages, however virtuously or trivially (until your 1-week block expires, i.e. 14.41 6 June, UTC), would result in a reinstatement and doubling of the original block. If you'd like that conditional unblock, let me know; if you're afraid you might not stick to it, then don't go for it. Rd232 14:55, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
  • With regards to the RfC, I haven't contributed because I think it's a dead end. Many people, myself included, have tried to get the community to a better place with regards to NFC and NFCC. It never works. It's a permanently broken system, but it's all we have. Consensus will never move it towards a better place, even if the former or latter existed. Wear I tend to exert my energies is in defending the (horribly stupid, ultimately unenforceable, badly corrupted) line in the sand we have. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:51, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
  1. @Δ: I heartily agree, as you know, with the core issues you raise. If it had been me who gutted the numismatics articles rather than you, this debate would not have spun out of control. Why? Because when you're involved, people start invoking the past in an attempt to win the future. It's wrong, absolutely wrong, and an extremely strong reason to suspend the sanctions and have ArbCom explicitly state that use of past sanctions in disputes is irresponsible.
  2. That said, you have repeatedly violated the edit throttle. That was wrong, and there's no disputing that. I do think it's highly improper for people to scream about the edit throttle being violated without pointing to any actual damage caused when the throttle was violated. It's like a "we got you because we wanted to get you, not because you're hurting the project" situation. It again goes back to invoking the past to win the future. Still, you know the throttle is in place and violated it anyways. I'd hate to be under a throttle like that. It would be damned difficult to adhere to.
  3. You don't communicate well. You know it, I know it, so do lots of other people. That's not an attack but objective assessment. Everybody has their limitations. Some situations that you get involved in could be cooled down with more communication. Since that communication isn't your strong suit, passing such situations off to others to handle would be a good idea I think. I'll raise my hand and volunteer for this. Whether there's a new restriction or not, if you come across a situation where you've removed something and later reverted it's reinstatement only to have it removed again, let me know. I'll take care of it. At that point, just step back from it and move on to something else.
  4. Personal insults are rampant on the project. If you look at the body of attacks and the actual responses, the policy is effectively unenforced to the point that the policy has no standing anymore. I am routinely insulted. Portions of my userpage are an homage to that. I can't tell you how many times I've reported being insulted. Result? Nothing. I was even told I was the most ignorant and disrespectful editor on Misplaced Pages, and the people reviewing it declared it wasn't a personal attack. This is far from isolated. It happens all the time. Administrators simply don't want to step into the middle of such drama, and ignore it. We can't change that. The project has, as a whole, gotten to a point where fringe opinion adherents are treated almost with reverence in terms of how much bullshit they can get away with. An editor with considerable experience has almost no leeway. That's reality. I don't know what the solution is.
  5. I want to state again that the work you do here is invaluable. Nobody else does or can do what you've done. It's easy to get down in the dumps about all this crap. Frankly, I've been highly impressed you've stuck it out despite all of it. There are people here who will go to any length to make you look as bad as possible, and they are relentless. Please don't place value in their opinions. I have my own set of editors doing the same with me. I've taken to ignoring their posts. Their posts are frequently as nonsensical as they are illogical, and are extremely disconnected from the reality of what this project is. I choose not to waste my time reading them. If anything of import is raised by them, I figure someone else will write about it enough to bring it to my attention. Since that has never happened, it's so far been safe to conclude their comments remain non-pertinent, and I can continue to ignore them. This might do well for you too. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:08, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
  1. Unfortunately, I know ArbCom doesn't have the testicular fortitude to actually get anything done worth while anymore, its a purely political group so they will never in a million years even ever consider such an action, let alone do it.
  2. yeah, I fucked up there and I am quietly taking my lumps for going over the throttle, and not requesting unblock or anything else. I am complaining about the other issues
  3. That is why you have seen me stay out of a lot of discussions here on my talk page because you and several other users have taken care of it for me.
  4. What I would like to see is a zero tolerance policy, on NPA and serious CIVIL issues (for all sides of the table)
  5. Thank you.
You might want to take a look at my monobook.js I added another tool that you might find useful. Also tools:~betacommand/nfcc might be interesting, Im running a NCC#10c scanner over every NFC use. <page title><tab><file name><tab><internal usage hash> ΔT 15:30, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
  • Yep, I already added that tool. VERY useful! It's serious drudgery going through articles with >10 non-free images on them looking for such violations. Re (3); I kinda figured you were letting others step in for you on discussions here on this talk page, and I've been happy to do it. (4) You'll never see a zero tolerance policy on WP:NPA. Just won't happen. Barring Jimbo coming in and issuing a thousand blocks to forcefully change society here, WP:NPA will remain written on used toilet paper. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:47, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
  • Case example on the zero tolerance idea. Quoting someone who recently responded to me, "You really just don't want this image on Misplaced Pages, do you?". Under current community standards, that's as far removed from a personal attack as the geocenter of the Sahara is from the Marianas Trench. Yet, it's a comment on me, not any points raised and DOES violate the "nutshell" shown on WP:NPA. WTF can post comments like this because he knows that nothing will ever be said about his comment. He feels at liberty to freely comment on me, knowing nothing will happen. Frankly, I find it silly for him to do this; it doesn't add to his argument. In fact, it detracts from it. But, there it is. Our culture doesn't support enforcement of WP:NPA. In fact, it's even the opposite. Several times now I've been attacked for showing intolerance of insults by way of WP:HAMMERSOFTSLAW. The irony is exquisitely delicious. The reality here is that if I were to say "Thou art a foul faced loon with intellect of a puffin" to someone I was in a disagreement with, nothing would happen to me. If instead I were to say "You are a fucking asshole, dumb as fuck all", I'd be taken to WP:WQA in heartbeat, probably WP:AN/I too, but probably not blocked for it. That's Misplaced Pages. Ain't it cool? <cough> The point here is that many editors just love to generate drama, and few admins are willing to walk face first into an unshielded fan to 'resolve' the issue (nothing gets resolved really). So, the culture is extreme tolerance of personal attacks because nobody will enforce the policy. --Hammersoft (talk) 16:01, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

take a second look there are two tools there, see example of the newest one :) ΔT 16:15, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

  • Just to comment: I'm trying to find some reasonable means to validate your excellent NFC work against those that would just rather see you gone from the project regardless of your attempts to abide by the restrictions. Most of the complaints you get are people dissatisfied with NFC policy, but they don't seem to want to take up the changes there and use you as the punching bag instead. Which is why I'm thinking a solution that simply brings any disagreements on NFC enforcement to a venue where your NFC enforcement can be validated is going to help prevent discussions strictly on your talk page from breaking down into incivility (and which, yes, you are right, if someone calls you out for being incivil in a discussion, there's likely someone else being incivil right back to you), and re-enforce the purpose and need of NFC enforcement. So don't please don't take what I'm trying to do at AN in the wrong way, I'm trying to negotiate a difficult set of priorities here. --MASEM (t) 17:26, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
    • Then here is a solution: topic ban repeated offenders who try to use me as a punching bag; set up a discussion board with those who actively work with NFC, and point users to that board if they have issues. WP:NFCR not really suited for this in its current format, but a similar board focused on individual page/file uses (kinda like what WT:NFC is being used for now); Make it clear that Shooting the messenger is not acceptable and that the issues need to be focused on. With all of the proposals that Im seeing on AN right now I see nothing productive except making it easier for them to use me as a punching bag; We need to start focusing on the elephant in the room instead of the mouse. ΔT 17:40, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Template:Politics of South Africa

Regarding your edits to Template:Politics of South Africa yes indeed, the image is not free, however it is a governmental work which is granted for non-commercial use by the South African government. The United States coat of arms (or Great Seal) falls under the same header of copyright law. Also, this image is used on South Africa which has been reviewed many times. If you consider it non-free then it would have to be removed from there as well.

Let me know what you think.

Kind Regards, User:DiscipleOfKnowledge (talk) 10:30, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

First File:US-GreatSeal-Obverse.svg is public domain and is not copyrighted. File:Coat of arms of South Africa.svg is copyrighted and is thus subject to our non-free content policy. Usage of it on Coat of arms of South Africa, South Africa, South African heraldry has been justified with a non-free rationale. Similar rationales cannot be made for its usage in a template. (see WP:NFCC#8 and WP:NFCC#9). Using non-free content in decorative situations like this template is not allowed. ΔT 10:39, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
After going over SA copyright law it seems that the South African Coat of Arms does indeed belong in the public domain as ::according to the Copyright Act § 12 (8) (a):
"No copyright shall ::subsist in official texts of a legislative, administrative or legal nature, or in official translations of such texts."
The file ] is from such a source which you can find ::here.
I therefore recommend that all images that are derived from South ::African governmental works have their copyright status amended to the public domain so that they may be used on templates and ::anywhere else where they may have formerly been restricted.
Kind Regards User:DiscipleOfKnowledge (talk) 13:12, 30 May 2011 (UTC)