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Russavia

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Russavia

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Martin (talk) 22:17, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Russavia (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Russavia-Biophys/Proposed_decision#Russavia_restricted

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. 11 June 2011 Direct interaction by reverting my edit with an offensive edit comment about me casting my edit in bad faith: "reverting sneaking in of controversial changes to the article under the guise of a see-also link" , thus is a violation of Russavia's prohibition from commenting on or unnecessarily interacting with editors from the EEML case, except in the case of necessary dispute resolution.
2. 11 June 2011 , edit warring with Sander Säde (talk · contribs), another breach of the interaction ban, one in which he can't possibly use the excuse that he wasn't aware that he was breaking his interaction ban.
3. 17 May 2011 , violated the interaction ban by commenting on a AE request made by Piotrus (talk · contribs) - one in which he had no business commenting.

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

Not applicable. Aware of the result of the ArbCom case.

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)

Block or ban

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

As legitimate and necessary dispute resolution I was permitted to participate in the original WP:ARBRB case where my evidence and workshop suggestions where taken on board and subsequently led to Russavia's current interaction ban. In this case Russavia initiated the unwanted interaction by reverting my edit here therefore I have a legitimate and necessary reason to resolve this dispute and asking an administrator to end that unwanted interaction and ensure that the Arbitration decision continues to be enforced by bringing it here. I note that Russavia continues to breach the ban by commenting about me on his talk page.

@AGK, seven days after opening this request and four days after sanctioning Russavia, I'm not sure why this report has remained opened, no other admin has deemed it necessary to take any further action, let alone comment on your block. I am wondering why you are still considering blocking me despite the passage of time making the issue stale. If Russavia wants to pursue further action, he ought to go to Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests, rather than present a wall-o-words here. Now if he wants to interact with other former members of the EEML, fine, but he ought to ask ArbCom to amend his ban, rather than apparently thumb his nose at you with further prohibited interaction immediately after coming off his block. --Martin (talk) 10:59, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

It is a bit rich of Nanobear (talk · contribs) (who was indef site banned for taking the WP:BATTLEGROUND to the depths of WP:OUTING) to accuse me of "battleground behaviour" because of my habit of lazy edit comments, which as far as I know have never been subject of any ArbCom remedy to enforce. As for his claim "Tammsalu is now taking advantage of Russavia's block and the latter's now-sanctioned inability to contribute to an article", that is nonsense, Russavia block has had no effect on him editing Russophobia or the talk page. --Martin (talk) 12:22, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

• This must be the first time a case has remained open beyond the term of the reported party's sanction. After all the froth and bubble here, Russavia has finally lodged an amendment request as I suggested above. I think after 8 days the case is well and truly stale. At this late stage any further action would be seen as punitive rather than preventative. This is rapidly descending into a circus, with further renewed accusations , after coming off his block (which I don't want to be forced into interaction by having to respond) in an apparent attempt at retaliation for me originally seeking admin assistance to prevent continued violation beyond this. --Martin (talk) 19:49, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

In regard to AGK's conclusion that I violated the interaction ban in filing this report, WP:IBAN explicitly exempts seeking admin intervention in violations of interaction bans by the other party:

The following exceptions to article, topic and interaction bans are usually recognized:

• Legitimate and necessary dispute resolution, that is, addressing a legitimate concern about the ban itself in an appropriate forum. Examples include asking an administrator to take action against a violation of an interaction ban by the other party (but normally not more than once), asking for necessary clarifications about the scope of the ban, or appealing the ban for a good reason.

Such edits are allowed even if the ban would otherwise prohibit them.

Reporting a violation to WP:AE, which is the appropriate forum in this case, is in effect seeking admin action which is explicilty permitted by WP:IBAN.

Secondly, his claim that I am not an established contributor to Russophobia while Russavia is, is incorrect. I started editing that page on 2007-03-13 with 54 edits while Russavia started in 2008-06-22 with 36 edits . My previous edit to that article was on June 3rd. My sum total of two edits to Russophobia since was to ask for a quote and raise the issue of possible OR issues hardly disruptive acts compared to Russavia's direct reverts ,,

Therefore, while the block itself cannot now be undone, I ask that AGK in fairness to re-evaluate the appropriateness of his block, and in light of the explicit exemption of reporting violations contained WP:IBAN to amend the result here recording no violation on my part before final closure. --Martin (talk) 00:43, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Notified

Discussion concerning Russavia

Statement by Russavia

Who is Tammsalu? A couple of hours ago I skimmed thru their contribs and noticed that the editor had edited since several years ago, I just assumed that it was a long-standing editor I hadn't crossed paths with. Only just now, by way of Martintg posting to my user talk page, and starting this request and claiming a link to EEML, have I realised that User:Martintg has changed his username.

But even in that case, the edit by Tammsalu was not just the inclusion of a see-also link, but also rewording of information in an article which changes the complete meaning of what was written. I have reverted, and re-included the see-also link in my edit. There is no dispute here, nor should there be. As per Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive66#Russavia, editing the same article is not part of the restriction, neither is reverting, and as per Misplaced Pages:EDITSUMMARY#Always_provide_an_edit_summary I have provided an accurate edit summary, and the summary itself is not commenting on anyone's character - the edit summary offered by Tammsalu does not adequately describe their edit. I have taken note of Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Russavia-Biophys/Proposed_decision#Potential_problem_with_restrictions and act accordingly.

Also, might I add that Martintg, aka Tammsalu, is also bound by Misplaced Pages:EEML#Editors_restricted -- his bringing this to WP:AE is the manufacturing of a dispute by him, and this report is NOT a part of any reasonable dispute resolution process, and given history of harrassment of myself by those editors who are restricted from interacting with or commenting on myself, this is a furtherment of a battleground mentality that they swore to give up as they went back to the Arbitration Committee to have their return to this area of editing allowed by way of having their topic bans lifted. I believe it is quite telling that Martin has raced to AE to ask for a ban on myself, when there is no valid reason for any belief of his report being part of any reasonable dispute resolution process.

I would suggest that Tammsalu withdraw this frivolous battleground complaint (Misplaced Pages:EEML#Disruption_4) which is lacking in any good faith, and get back to editing, or I will ask that WP:BOOMERANG apply. --What's the difference between a straight and bisexual man? 00:07, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Unfortunately, instead of dropping his vexatious complaint, Martintg has decided to attempt to turn this into a battleground; something which I will not allow to occur and which I will not participate in. At no stage were interaction bans giving editors carte blanche to claim ownership of articles. Again I point admins to Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Russavia-Biophys/Proposed_decision#Potential_problem_with_restrictions; I have taken Carcharoth's comments on board; others should be doing the same. What Martintg fails to disclose is that WP:BRD has basically taken place at Talk:Russophobia#Aivars_Slutsis - and not a single complaint; discussion is able to occur. We are adults and we should act as such. Why is Martintg bringing this to WP:AE? Is that not just continuing with Misplaced Pages:EEML#Disruption_4? And breaching Misplaced Pages:EEML#Editors_restricted? It is in my opinion vexatious reporting, and should be seen as block/ban shopping on his part. I will offer to Martintg one last time to drop this frivolous complaint, and get back to editing, or I will ask that WP:BOOMERANG apply. And with that I am happily leaving Martintg alone on his battleground, but I will be happy to respond to any questions from admins. --What's the difference between a straight and bisexual man? 12:38, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

For AGK

AGK, as the blocking admin, can I ask why you simply acted on the report by Tammsalu as it was written, without taking into account the following:

• User:Martintg (now known as User:Tammsalu) was found in EEML, amongst other things, to have abused dispute resolution processes (Misplaced Pages:EEML#Disruption_4)
• User:Martintg was covered under Misplaced Pages:EEML#Editors_restricted, under which he is "prohibited from commenting on or unnecessarily interacting with Russavia (talk · contribs) on any page of Misplaced Pages, except for purposes of legitimate and necessary dispute resolution."
• As a result of Misplaced Pages:ARBRB#Russavia_restricted I am unable to interact with any editors from the EEML case.
• It should be noted that only editors sanctioned in EEML are restricted from interacting with me, whilst I am restricted from interacting with ALL EEML members. Given that I do not have a history of vexatious reporting (this was explicitly stated by Arbs in the WP:ARBRB case), etc I saw some problems with this, as noted at Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Russavia-Biophys/Proposed_decision#Potential_problem_with_restrictions. User:Carcharoth, although not agreeing to extend the restriction, commented that one should be concentrating on content, rather than the editor. And this I do agree with, and this is what I have done in my editing.
• It also should be noted that myself and User:Miacek have ignored these restrictions and we have (and will continue) to interact with one another.
• On 11 June, I made this edit to Occupation of the Baltic states.
• Not long after User:Tammsalu files this AE report. As stated in there, I did not know that Tammsalu is the editor formerly known as Martintg. I have not kept tabs on the EEML editors for a year (plus) now. I don't keep tabs on these editors and their name changes, nor do I have a need or desire to.
• At Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive66#Russavia User:Newyorkbrad stated that editing the same article is not interacting.
• At his request, Tammsalu states that because he was allowed to participate in the Arbitration case, so this gives him cause to breach his own interaction ban by reporting me to AE. This belief has not been clarified by the Committee. After making my first statement, in which I stated that I did not know Tammsalu was Martintg, and that this was not legitimate and necessary dispute resolution, Tammsalu instead of dropping the request as WP:AGF, decided to push further into battle by bringing up edits of mine on an article in which he was not involved.
• Russophobia is an article which I have an interest in, and for which I am developing materials (such as the Russophobes bible). Tammsalu was not involved in this at all, so I fail to see how he would be able to be given carte blanche to ignore his interaction ban on me by reporting my actions on that article.
• My actions on that article comprised of one revert of an editor who was in EEML and upon whom I am banned from interacting (but yet there is not a reciprocal ban on them interacting on me). They reverted me, and I reverted and then added additional information. At the same time, inline with WP:BRD, discussion takes place at Talk:Russophobia#Aivars_Slutsis_Sl.C5.ABcis. I am not complaining about the other editor, for I do not believe there is a good faith reason to do so, as any discussion that was taking place was about the content.
• Surely, if any editor had a problem with my editing on that article, they could have reported me. But why would that be needed, when discussion has been cordial on the talk page, and information provided for each other as requested.
• There was no need for Tammsalu to report editing and discussion on Russophobia as he was not involved, and there is no conceivable way it could be construed as legitimate and necessary dispute resolution on his part. In addition to his reporting this article, there certainly was no need for Tammsalu to be combative with words such as "Both Nanobear (talk · contribs) (a.k.a Offliner and Russavia (talk · contribs) have a history of teaming together to tendentiously edit Baltic related topics in order to perpetuate the battleground against certain editors." Unfortunately, this goes against what User:Carcharoth wrote by not concentrating on content, but instead attacking myself and another editor with unfounded accusations.
• Unfortunately, User:AGK blocked me for 4 days, not for my innocent interaction with Tammsalu, but for Tammsalu's report of my edits on Russophobia.
• No sooner had I been blocked, and Tammsalu immediately then goes to Russophobia and begins to edit the article and other resultant diffs. Obviously this is a WP:POINT violation. What would a user doing this appear to be to the uninvolved?
• Given that the AE report by Tammsalu was somewhat battlish (said by way of his words and unfounded accusations), it could appear that the entire point of the AE report was to have me sanctioned by way of what I believe is vexatious reporting on issues in which they were not involved, ostensibly to have me all-but-ejected from an article. This sentiment is somewhat backed up by User:Igny's comments on the talk page here. Tammsalu's interjection on an article that I had been editing, and discussing with other editors in a civil manner, immediately after I was blocked as a result of his report is obviously a WP:POINTY thing to do.
• I don't have any opponents here on WP, and am happy to collaborate with all editors who are here for the betterment of the project. However, it could appear that Tammsalu continues to treat WP as a battleground by way of 1) manufacturing disputes where there are none, 2) making accusations against myself and other editors, 3) using harsh language against myself (e.g. saying that only I was edit warring, but ignoring other user ), 4) even accusing me of edit-warring, when what occurred was a normal part of WP:BRD.
• No other editor, apart from Tammsalu, saw my edits on Russophobia as disruptive. As there is a history of vexatious reporting, and also harrassment on myself, one should be asking if the very report by Tammsalu wasn't in itself disruptive, and an obvious breach of his interaction ban on myself.
• During my 4 day block, I continued to work on content on my talk page. I also began writing this information up to bring here to AE to you AGK. This resulted in Tammsalu making further comments on myself with this edit; with this edit he is implying that I am continuing to breach the interaction ban, by preparing material which questions his behaviour with this report and his interaction ban breach.

AGK, given the information that you now have, can you please explain why:

1. you have all but given Tammsalu/Martintg immunity from Misplaced Pages:EEML#Editors_restricted, given his history
2. you have only acted on his report, which is somewhat vexatious, but are leaving it up to other admins to determine whether Tammsalu has been disruptive, and perhaps creating a battleground where there was no need for one in the first place.
3. you shouldn't apply sanctions on Tammsalu to demonstrate that there is some appearance of impartiality here. I am not assuming that you have not acted in good faith here, but I am suggesting that all information available should be taken into account.

Your response to this is appreciated AGK. --Russavia 07:07, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

AGK, I thank you for your response. Can I say, that I WP:AGF interpreted "Nanobear: I have intentionally not closed this request for enforcement, in order to allow another administrator to determine whether Martintg/Tammsalu has violated his topic ban. If an administrator does not do so soon, I will." to state that you will leave this thread open for another admin to look at, and that if another admin does not do this, you will close the thread. I am sure you can see how this could have been interpreted this way. This also lead me to perhaps assume that impartiality perhaps wasn't being applied. So I apologise if I have misinterpreted your words and actions here. And I do appreciate that you will look at other's edits, for there was absolutely no need for "necessary dispute resolution" on the part of Tammsalu in this case, and it could be inferred by their subsequent actions that this report was artificial creation of a battleground in order to have me sanctioned with the aim of having me all but removed from an article (Russophobia). --Russavia 10:15, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Other issues

To bring up consentual interactions between myself and Miacek is very petty indeed. So that any admin is aware, as a result of two cases, there is an interaction ban on Miacek from interacting with me, and an interaction ban on me interacting with Miacek. A history of interactions between the two of us, since interactions have been all but been banned include the following: this, this, this, this, this, this, this, and it can go on. I even commented at his request to have his topic ban lifted, because as Miacek mentions in that very request, relations between the two of us are normal. We have also been in occasional email contact, the last time just the other day, when I emailed him for fixing an issue with another article after he saw my note on my talk page. It is clear that this is consentual interaction, and no-one in their right mind would sanction two editors who have inconveniently been banned from interacting from doing so, when interaction is and always has been cordial, respectful, constructive, and clearly welcomed by both parties. Tammsalu is, of course, aware that interactions between myself and Miacek are consentual, and they have been discussed in the past and found to exactly what should be happening in EE topics. So I find it extremely disappointing that Tammsalu is intent on turning an example of exactly what the EE area needs into part of his unwarranted and unneeded self-manufactured battleground. Instead of seemingly being intent on battling, Tammsalu should be looking at why Miacek and myself are able to have a collaborative editing relationship, and how he could have done the same thing. My initial suggestion to him of dropping his initial report based on WP:AGF would have been a big step, but his clear intent to escalate non-disputes into a major war and subsequent pointy actions show that this is not part of his agenda, so yes, I totally agree, such behaviour needs to be stopped. --Russavia 13:46, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive65#Russavia has comments from FPaS and Sandstein on this interaction ban. --Russavia 14:40, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

On lazy editing

It is difficult to regard this as lazy editing. After the edit summary on the article that brought us here, and Tammsalu's comment that was laziness, it is suspicious that this is mere lazy editing as it is not a copy edit but rather it is essentially a substantial revert of edits which I made in August 2010. Compare Tammsalu's copy edit with the article as it stood before I edited it in August 2010.. Tammsalu has reverted every change which I made to the article, which included removal of information which failed verification (synthesis), placement of opinion from the lead to relevant section. And especially telling is this edit, where I moved it from the lead to a relevant section, and at the same time expanded it by providing context. If one looks at the copy edit one can see that last edit has been undone in its entireity by moving opinion back to the lead, and all context and additional information being removed. Of course, Tammsalu knows that I am unable to do anything about it because to do so would constitute an interaction with him. The timing of my contributions being wholesale removed from that article (i.e. after my unblock and my edits on Russophobia which added information) also is suspicious. And then to claim that his edit summary is lazy editing, after using that excuse only a short time ago. I think it is pretty clear what is happening there. And it needs to stop; editors who are intent on WP:POINT disruptive POV editing and battleground creation and advancement should be removed from the area. It is about time that an admin look at this and draw their own conclusions and act appropriately. --Russavia 14:40, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning Russavia

In my view, the edit summary reverting sneaking in of controversial changes to the article under the guise of a see-also link is a personal attack. The editor needs to be reminded about the requirement to observe Misplaced Pages's civility policy. Clarified and expanded in response to a comment by user Igny below. - BorisG (talk) 00:56, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

If you refer to Russavia's edit summary then no, it is not. (Igny (talk) 03:50, 11 June 2011 (UTC))

@Nanobear: I think both edit summaries are problematic, and both are at fault here. The former doesn't justify the latter. But I agree, given his own highly misleading edit summary, bringing this to AE can backfire. - BorisG (talk) 05:33, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

If my edit summary was seen as not properly reflecting the edit, then my bad, it wasn't intentional, more a function of laziness. Claiming it was "sneaky" is an assumption of bad faith gone too far and a personal attack. But that is not the point. The point is that Russavia is under an active Arbcom interaction ban. Now it is conceivable that he was unaware of my username change, but certainly edit warring with Sander Säde (talk · contribs) is a clear breach of that interaction ban. Both Nanobear (talk · contribs) (a.k.a Offliner and Russavia (talk · contribs) have a history of teaming together to tendentiously edit Baltic related topics in order to perpetuate the battleground against certain editors. I had hoped that Nanobear (talk · contribs) has moved on from that when he changed his name, but when Russavia turns up to revert my edit with an offensive comment and to begin edit warring while breaching his interaction ban in support of Nanobear, this is a return to the bad old days. The interaction ban was designed to stop precisely this kind of behaviour, and has been successful until now. --Martin (talk) 06:25, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Re AGK The diffs to the edits involving Sander Säde show that Russavia has violated his interaction restriction. But they don't show that. Reverting an editor or even edit-warring with him does not constitute interaction in a strict sense, otherwise, the interaction ban is too open to an abuse, when one of the parties (A) make controversial edits to an article where the opposing party (B) is an active contributor thereby banning him (B) from editing the article to avoid interaction with A. (Igny (talk) 23:44, 12 June 2011 (UTC))

Comment by Nanobear

• User Tammsalu edits: (edit summary: see also link) (Question: does this edit summary accurately describe his edit? Does the edit concern controversial material about ethnic and national disputes?)
• Russavia reverts: (reverting sneaking in of controversial changes to the article under the guise of a see-also link; which I will now be happy to go and add to the article)

That Tammsalu has chosen to report Russavia's edit summary as "offensive" just shows how frivolous this request is. Since when is accurately describing an edit a policy violation? Should we reward Tammsalu for the misleading edit summary?

This appears to be pure block shopping by Tammsalu. We should apply WP:BOOMERANG to stop this kind of battleground behaviour. ArbCom has previously found that Tammsalu was engaged in battleground behaviour and banned him. It seems that Tammsalu has learned nothing during his ban. Nanobear (talk) 12:46, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

I'd like to note that User:Tammsalu has now continued to make controversial edits with misleading edit summaries. He is doing this after his frivolous request against Russavia was successful. Tammsalu is now taking advantage of Russavia's block and the latter's now-sanctioned inability to contribute to an article. I checked all edits by Russavia in this article, and found them to be well-sourced and constructive, where as Tammsalu's unfortunately are not.

• This "copy edit" is basically a revert to a 1-year old version. Tammsalu has just undone all edits by Russavia in 2010: vs. .

If this isn't punishable battleground behaviour by Tammsalu, then I don't know what is. Nanobear (talk) 11:20, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Result concerning Russavia

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

• The diffs to the edits involving Sander Säde show that Russavia has violated his interaction restriction. I note that this is Russavia's second such violation, and so he is blocked for 4 days per the enforcement provision of Russavia-Biophys. I have not closed this enforcement request yet, because I want to leave it open to other administrators to block other editors involved in these incidents. I find it doubtful that Russavia is the only one who has behaved disruptively here. AGK 18:25, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

• Igny: That is incorrect; the interaction ban does include reverts. AGK 10:17, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
• Nanobear: I have intentionally not closed this request for enforcement, in order to allow another administrator to determine whether Martintg/Tammsalu has violated his topic ban. If an administrator does not do so soon, I will. AGK 10:17, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

• Response: Did you read my comment above? I said that "if an administrator does not do so soon, I will." (Emphasis added.) Precisely why did you not come to my talk page to say "I think you've forgotten about that AE thread you were coming back to", rather than seizing upon my own forgetfulness (there are more demands on my wikitime than there probably should be) as evidence of my own impartiality? I am completely sick of wild allegations of bias from involved or partisan users, and I have learned to ignore them. I will perhaps sanction Martintg soon. AGK 09:22, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

• Russavia: Thank you for the explanation. That is understandable. AGK 10:57, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

With this post, I am following up on the complaints about User:Martintg (aka User:Tammsalu), who filed this request. I am presuming that the only enforceable remedy here is WP:EEML#Editors restricted, which would prohibit Martin from interacting with Russavia. There are multiple elements of the argument by Russavia, so I will in turn answer the substantial ones, but ignore informal remarks or references to violations of arbitration principles (because we can only enforce remedies).

1. At Occupation of the Baltic states (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), Martin was editing for some time before Russavia reverted him. In my view, the sudden arrival of Russavia would be a violation of the interaction ban (although I am not dealing with that point because I have already blocked Russavia, above), but Martin's actions would not because he had already been contributing to the page for some time.
2. I disagree with Newyorkbrad's interpretation that the remedy does not cover interaction by editing the same article, at least in the sense of one restricted editor appearing suddenly on an article that the other is contributing to. I would be more lenient if the two editors were already established contributors to the page, or were undertaking genuine debate about the subject matter.
3. It is difficult to say whether the remedy would prevent one editor from filing an enforcement request on the other. On one hand, if it were to cover enforcement requests, that would prevent genuine misconduct from being properly reported. On the other, if it were not to, it would on the face of it allow the parties to interact (in violation of the spirit of the remedy). I am inclined to say that it does cover such behaviour, especially as Russavia was an established contributor to the Russophobia and Martin seems to not be.

Filing this report was therefore a violation by Martin of the interaction ban. On that basis, I am enforcing the remedy by blocking Martin for 48 hours for violating WP:EEML#Editors restricted and per WP:EEML#Enforcement by block. I am also reminding Martin that it is imperative that he avoid all non-content-related interaction with Russavia. AGK 20:56, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

AgadaUrbanit

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning AgadaUrbanit

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Nableezy 06:14, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

AgadaUrbanit (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:ARBPIA#Discretionary sanctions

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. 15 June 2011 See below for explanation

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

1. Informed of the ARBPIA case by PhilKnight (talk · contribs)
2. Blocked multiple times for conduct on this article, see block log

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)

Topic ban

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

About two months ago AgadaUrbanit reverted an edit at Gaza War dealing with the inclusion of two names, one in each Hebrew and Arabic, in the lead of the article. At this time I opened a content RFC over this topic. This RFC was recently closed by an uninvolved admin with the conclusion that the two names are to be included in the lead (see close here). Following this close I reinserted the contested material here. Agada then proceeds to remove the material and claim on the talk page there is still no consensus. This type of I did not hear that game playing following a clear close of an RFC is disruptive, similar to past cases with Israeli settlements and international law. The user is well aware of the RFC, having participated in it and commenting directly below it claiming there is no consensus. The RFC asked "Should the name used by each of the combatants be included in the lead of the article?" The close said "the result is include". And yet AU claims there is no consensus to include the material in the lead, disregarding the clear close of a discussion that lasted two months. This is simply bad faith editing and should be dealt with accordingly.

The user now claims, in the comment linked below, that he did not see the close. However, now that he understands that the RFC was indeed closed, the user has still not self-reverted his edit. Additionally, a reply was made to him that said that the RFC was closed by an uninvolved admin and this AE request was opened and the user informed since the revert. The user only responded to the notification by saying you are welcome and ignored both the comment on the talk page and this AE request until Tim commented below. I cant believe that the user did not know, at least since the comment on his talk page directing him here, that the RFC was closed by an uninvolved admin. And even if he did not know that then, he certainly knows it now and has yet to rectify the issue of the disruptive revert. nableezy - 21:25, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

The user is continuing with the I did not hear that type disruption, as evidenced by this comment in which he claims that he is looking into ways to implement the RFC closure, despite the way to implement it being to self-revert his edit. nableezy - 21:38, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

If yall feel that I need to respond to Agada's comments about me, please let me know. Id rather not waste the time if it doesnt matter though. nableezy - 14:02, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Notified

Discussion concerning AgadaUrbanit

Statement by AgadaUrbanit

Tim, apologize for creating needless drama. Please see my thoughts here. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 20:18, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

I already noted that I have missed the closing and was under impression that the RfC was closed by the bot. It might appear as unreasonable to some, but the last RfC that I was involved in was never reviewed by any administrator and was closed by the bot. Additionally this enforcement request was initially published with wrong link to closing, probably by mistake, I have fixed the link later, Revision as of 20:21, 15 June 2011. Once I have read the closing I have self reverted, Revision as of 22:00, 15 June 2011. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 09:49, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

I have also asked Nableezy if he would be willing to consider withdrawing this request following my self revert. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 11:45, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

However he denied the request. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 12:47, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

In any case of outcome, I'd like to apologize again for unneeded drama, which was caused by my misunderstanding. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 11:12, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

@BioSketch Thank you ;)

• I've been topic banned from Gaza War article, but it was a blessing I've learned how to use watchlist feature and currently I have 1,586 pages on my watchlist (excluding talk pages). I am not following Gaza War closely, that is why I have missed the close. Bio is right, I would not be surprised if more than 80% of my edits are outside I-P area.I think reviewing administrators are fair and this expansion is, well, to make the editing environment more clean.

• I'd like to clarify couple of points. A question of naming was/is a constant source of disruption and edit warring at Gaza War. To ease the pain, after two different 3d party uninvolved editors opinions from User:Bjmullan and User:Macrakis. See User_talk:AgadaUrbanit/Archives/2010/August#Gaza_Massacre. So an RfC was initiated, see Talk:Gaza_War/Archive_65#RfC:_Is_Bjmullan-Macrakis_change_acceptable, let's call it B-M RfC. It was agreed to follow World War II naming format excluding ALL alternative side names from the lede. However, it was sloppy, the RfC was not reviewed by any administrator.

• Despite the existing B-M RfC, Nableezy denied the existing consensus and performed unilateral edit two months ago. Here is discussion Talk:Gaza_War/Archive_67#Name about my two months old revert. Much more than one editor were *actively* objecting. So following revert, Nableezy immediately initiated RfC on the same topic as B-M RfC - a current RfC: Talk:Gaza_War#RFC: Should the name used by each of the combatants be included in the lead of the article? Nableezy 17:52, 26 April 2011 (UTC). Is Nableezy refusing to accept the verdict of the other editors? Some might see this episode as WP:IDHT.

• This is not a forum to discuss content, but just to clarify. New RfC consensus according to many interpretations is for including ALL names in the lede, provided WP:V by WP:RS. My involvement in discussion is to ensure WP:NPOV, since currently Nableezy insists that only two official names should be included, but others, which also have WP:RS support should not, which appear as Misplaced Pages policy of neutrality violation to me, that is why I have add POV tag. This is Nableezy traditional opinion which was not changed a bit by years of discussion.

• @EdJohnston, Agree I have messed up with my last edit on Gaza War, I definitely should have waited a week or so for more editors to express their opinion. However that was a discussed on talk page edit and it is WP:V by WP:RS. I didn't want to raise another RfC, my intention was to discuss an implementation of current one, fully accepting consensus on all previously discussed names, for clarity including Gaza Massacare. Names added in the discussed edit are used as the title names of Arabic language article Gaza War (original Google translate) , quote: "Attack on Gaza and the Gaza massacre or Operation Oil Stain or Battle of Criterion (Al-Furqan) as it is called by the Palestinian resistance ..." Operation Oil Stain & Battle of Criterion (Al-Furqan) are attributed to combatant, according to sources, so might appear as valid names for inclusion per current RfC. During discussion on talk page long list of sources were presented. Among them refs 2-4 from original article. I guess only those sources should be enough, but more primary (combatant using the name) and secondary sources saying (combatant name is ...) were provided. I realize though this BOLD but discussed edit caused a disruption and I apologize. Though revert rational appears as questionable to me: Your understanding is incorrect, and your use of a source in a language that you do not know is curious at best. nableezy - 12:39, 17 June 2011 (UTC). Appears as comment on editor and not content at least partially.

• Nabeezy expressed many times opinion that I should not edit the topic area, and I might agree. It is enough to glance at my talk page archive to see Nableezy constant WP:NPA and civility lapses. It is clear that Nableezy does not asume my good faith. Definitely me and Nableezy come from opposing partisan camps, as far as Gaza War is concerned.

1. Submission of this enforcement is timestamped 06:13, 15 June 2011 while my revert is timestamped 06:01, 15 June 2011, no attempt to discussion in the middle
2. Nableezy refusal to withdraw the request after my self revert

I find those two points as WP:BATTLEFIELD behavior. See for instance my week long block for not following WP:SPI and Nableezy is just asking User_talk:AgadaUrbanit/Archives/2010/August#what_are_you_doing.3F? Is this a famous sock slayer, failing to see clear sock pattern? It is enough to glance at User:Nableezy user page to see that we're talking about WP:ACTIVIST, he just can not help it, according to his own words. While in his constant topic bans, which for some reason are not as prolonged as topic bans of others, Nableezy does not contribute to areas outiside I-P. He is here to dispute:

1. names
2. locations
3. origins

• BTW I would not count Nableezy blocks or topic bans, but should not Nableezy be I-P topic banned currently, banned following hmmmm enforcement by my request? I am a bit surprised he is editing in the topic area at all.

• In anyway, I'd like to clarify reviewing administrators opinion appear fair to me and maybe I should be topic banned. My comment is only to ensure less disruptive I-P editing environment and in current situation I realize it does not mean much. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 05:23, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

I think that we're making much fuss about nothing. This is not about WP:WIN, I need a break from I-P topic area, especially from interaction with certain editors, who probably will continue to be stars of AE. I'd like to thank admins who reviewed this case and their patience. Agree with User:EdJohnston, three strikes law is a way to go, this principle should be applied more. I'm unilaterally banning myself from the I-P topic area. Half a year sounds reasonable to me. Let me quote Macrakis: Misplaced Pages has tremendous potential, but it is discouraging to see how much effort we have to spend to deal with mindless vandalism, puerile boosterism and nationalism, and crank POV-pushing. I don't really mind if admins would want to make the ban official and log it. This discussion is a waste of community time and resources, so closing it would be the best way to move forward. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 11:03, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning AgadaUrbanit

What, Tim? I thought discussion was a good thing. Considering that we have had multiple discussions (some that even led to the name not being included) then this does look good. The editor believes there is a way to address the neutrality problem and is actively discussing a perennial request without being a jerk. What is the problem with ongoing discussion?Cptnono (talk) 01:55, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

<comment redacted> I strongly disagree. AgadaUrbanit doesn't want to abide by consensus, so she/he is restarting a closed RfC. Classic IDHT behavior. But thank you for your opinion. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 04:34, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm not seeing it as restarting an RfC but instead expanding on options available after more than one editor said that other names would need to be discussed separately. Am I reading the discussion incorrectly or differently than you? And if you are going to refer to the comment as "manure": consider how many RfCs we have had on this. At what point does it become manure? Cptnono (talk) 04:41, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for your opinion, Cptnono. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 04:54, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

PS: Do you honestly believe AgadaUrbanit isn't being a jerk in that discussion? No need to answer. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 04:56, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Honestly? If his repeated" thank you for your opinion" is meant to be snarkey then it is annoying. But maybe he is bending over backwards to be polite to an editor who it is hard to be polite to. If it is the former, I doubt it is bad enough to require a 6 month ban. Is it against our standards to continue a discussion after being requested to do so? I do not believe anyone will say it is so the only question left to answer is if the closing admins believe he is lying when he says that he did not realize the details of the close before finally self-reverting.Cptnono (talk) 05:12, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Can an admin explain what is wrong with continued discussion on adding other names. I feel like I am missing something and I would like to get it so I don't also get a topic ban.

There was an RfC that took place after other discussions.->Adding on to that RfC after being requested to was done.

Is the problem that he intentionally "did not hear it"? If so, what id he not hear? Editors invited more conversation.

Is the problem that he intentionally gamed the system?

Is the problem that he intentionally edit warred?

Is the problem that he intentionally broke decorum?

How is reverting against consensus found in an RfC on accident (assuming we assume it was an accident) and then participating in discussion requested in the RfC a problem? TK, and Ed have not provided any actual reasoning for banning. He applied a tag? Is that the reason? Man up and give us some reasoning. What actually was wrong with opening more discussion after being asked? Was it how he did it? Are you just assuming he did something wrong? Why aren't you making it clear before making statements? Cptnono (talk) 10:06, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

@AGK: Who is Mike? - BorisG (talk) 11:22, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

I really like Agada. But sometimes I don't understand Agada. Sometimes he seems so oblivious and unconcerned about his own well-being. I almost want to say that his edits were so blatant that he must have felt it was acceptable. --JGGardiner (talk) 06:36, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Comment by Biosketch

@Timotheus Canens (talk · contribs), @AGK (talk · contribs), @EdJohnston (talk · contribs), I'm not going to defend AgadaUrbanit (talk · contribs)'s conduct at Gaza War; once the RfC was an established reality, he should have discussed rather than made a bold edit that went against the spirit of the RfC's conclusion. However, in determining the length of the topic ban, there are a couple of points in User:AgadaUrbanit's favor that I think ought to be considered. The first of these goes back to Nableezy (talk · contribs)'s recent topic ban. If one looks through Agada's edit history after Nableezy was topic-banned, they'll see that Agada basically removed himself from the I/P topic area, editing exclusively outside it. No one asked him to self-ban or anything like that, and I don't know his reasons for doing it. But it struck me then, and it still strikes me now, as a noble thing to have done. Perhaps he felt it best that, during Nableezy's absence from the topic area, it would only be fair that he take a break himself, seeing as he was the one who filed the AE against Nableezy that led to Nableezy being topic-banned. I doubt it's a coincidence that Agada only returned to Gaza War after Nableezy was paroled, which suggests to me that he deliberately waited for his chief rival, as it were, to return and be able to challenge him. He could have edited the article a few weeks ago and gotten away with it; instead, he waited for Nableezy to return to the topic area and only then made his bold edit.

Another fact I would like to see the Admins address is Agada's penitence, which to me sounds genuine. It's one thing when an editor tries to defend his actions when he's clearly in the wrong: in cases like that, enforcement is understandable as a necessary preventative measure. But when the editor is willing to acknowledge his mistake and pledge not to repeat it, it could be more constructive to give him the benefit of the doubt. Agada, according to what people are saying here, has something of a problematic record in the topic area, so some kind of topic ban would make sense. But in light of the circumstances just described, I believe a six-month ban is being overly harsh.—Biosketch (talk) 03:34, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Comment by Ohiostandard

This illustrates very poor judgment; it's not the action of a person who's interested in diminishing needless drama. Yes, I'm aware from AU's talk of the origin of this particular anti-barnstar, but coming from a very pro-Israel editor and posted to the talk page of a very pro-Palestine editor, it's just offensive and inappropriate. Caucasian people realize that they're not free to call a person of African ancestry "nigger" on the basis that people who share that ancestry ironically refer to each other so; likewise, there's nothing remotely funny or ironic about AU's post in this instance, either. I do think a topic ban is called for; it's my impression that the user is missing the internal filters necessary to edit productively in so contentious an area as this.  – OhioStandard (talk) 06:56, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Comment by uninvolved Biophys

@Ohiostandard . I believe that dividing editors to "pro-Palestine" and "pro-Israel" is completely inappropriate, just as as dividing them to "white" and "niggers" and telling that they are not equal. The problems in the Palestine-Israel area are so intractable precisely because of such division and attitude.Biophys (talk) 15:16, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Result concerning AgadaUrbanit

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

• I'm interested in hearing what AgadaUrbanit has to say, but at first glance this appears to be similar to Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive74#Shuki and a similar sanction should be in order. T. Canens (talk) 17:15, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

This does not look good. At all. I propose a six-month topic ban. T. Canens (talk) 19:54, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

• I have held off on involving myself much in this request, because I've taken the lead on most of the recent I/P enforcement requests, but I concur with Mike that the behaviour of the respondent in this case is passively disruptive and with T. Canens that a six-month topic ban would be fair. AGK 11:02, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

• The original problem causing this AE to be opened was a clear failure by AgadaUrbanit to accept consensus based on a closed RfC, as noted by T. Canens, and a parallel to Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive74#Shuki. After the AE was filed AgadaUrbanit undid his own edit and allowed Operation Cast Lead and Gaza Massacre to be restored. Still, his new placement of a POV tag on Gaza War, the immediate opening of a new RfC and the unilateral addition of his proposed alternate names before the new RfC had finished, suggests he is refusing to accept the verdict of the other editors. On this basis I support a 6-month ban from I/P topics as recommended above. AgadaUrbanit has been blocked three times in the past for warring on this very article, and has been banned from editing it for three months. The next reasonable escalation is an I/P topic ban. EdJohnston (talk) 02:57, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Communicat

Dicklyon