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Talk:Animal rights/archive1

The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

Idleguy's paragraphs

I have re-added the para claiming donations go mainly to professional organizers, etc, as a direct quote from the source Idleguy provided.

As of now, only the following points from eis original paragraphs are not present: critics say that basic human rights and human welfare are more important than animal rights and are being ignored by animal rights activists, such critics use Africa as an example of an area lacking these basic rights and welfare, such critics ask animal rights activist to improve all human conditions to the level of animal conditions before trying to improve animal conditions.

While Idleguy may consider these points obvious, it is a basic tenent of Misplaced Pages that any fact can be questioned and a source required. IMO, the final goal for Misplaced Pages is to have each and every claim made in the 'pedia have multiple reliable sources. Also, these seem like claims for which sources should be available; if critics have said this, we ought to be able to quote them directly. Thanks again to everyone for working to improve the 'pedia! JesseW, the juggling janitor 21:32, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

animal welfare in intro

It seems a bit odd that the intro contains two large paragraphs about animal rights followed by one small paragraph on animal welfare, followed by a paragraph of animal rights criticism of animal welfare. I see two large "animal rights" paragraph and one small "animal welfare" paragraph to already be skewed in the favor of animal rights, and tacking on the "animal rights" criticism of "animal welfare" seems to be over the top favoritism. I think it is already clear that animal rights advocates think that anything less than animal rights is morally unacceptable, and I don't see a reason to include it as a pot-shot against animal welfare. The PETA quote of "something is better than nothing" seems grasping. Animal rights say they are against cruelty and exploitation. The animal welfare POV says their POV is not exploitive or cruel. That should be the end of it. FuelWagon 16:19, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

I have removed the National Beef association as a source and replaced it with the Foundation for Animal Use Education as a source. Their website has a lot more information, links, and quotes. FuelWagon 23:41, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Animal Rights and POV pushing

SlimVirgin: you did a blind revert of quite a bit of work I had done. Your edit summary said it was "minor", and you made no mention of why you did the revert on the talk page. I find it interesting since you were the one who was complaining about the National Cattleman quotation as being "inappropriate", so I went and found a more "appropriate" source. I replaced the criticism paragraph quoting the Cattlemen organization with sourced quotes from notable experts and a URL to back up each and every one of them. Yet you reverted it, completely, wholly, and without a single word of explanation, marking your revert as "minor". Given the emphasis by wikipedia on the importance of source quotes from notable experts with URL's to back them up, perhaps you could give some sort of a legitimate explanation for your massive revert of all these sourced quotes from notable experts with URL's to back them up. Without any such explanation, I'm left to assume this was simply the product of POV pushing on your part. FuelWagon 15:09, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

FuelWagon, the problem here is that you are loading up the intro with multiple paragraphs of disjointed quotes, evidence, and critiques of the animal rights perspective. This isn't appropriate in the intro, especially as the first two paragraphs of the introduction do not provide any support for the animal rights perspective, they simply characterize it. Two descriptive paragraphs followed by a lengthy polemic against animal rights is hardly an NPOV lead. The debate can be presented in the body of the article. Let's just leave the lead as it is, without presenting supporting information for either the pros or antis. Or perhaps add a brief third paragraph characterizing the animal welfare perspective, or acknowledging that the animal rights movement has critics who come from a range of perspectives. But the polemics really need to stay out. Babajobu 10:31, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps we are editing different articles. The one I'm editing opens with the following sentence:

Animal rights, or animal liberation, is the movement to protect non-human animals from being exploited by humans.

So, while I agree that were an intro to strictly talk about what something is in an undisputed, neutral, unbiased, non-favored way, I find it laughable that anyone can suggest that accusations of explotation in the first sentence in any way qualifies as simply defining what "animal rights" as a topic is. Far from it. This intro starts out immediately and in the first sentence as condemning the non-animal-rights view as exploitive of animals. Sorry, but this doesn't pass even the sloppiest application of "neutral" unless neutral is defined by PeTA advocates, whom, I would not be surprised, would include some of the editors involved here. This is not "simply characterizing" animal rights, this intro is clearly advocating for animal rights and advocating against anything less than full personhood as exploitation. This intro is anything but neutral and in condemning anything less than full-animal-rights, the intro needs to present the point of view of those it condemns in the opening sentence as exploiters. FuelWagon 04:27, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

felonious monk

re: this complete deletion: the introduction must at least mention the other major points of view around the topic or it fails NPOV. there is a major POV that opposes "animal rights" and it goes by the name "animal welfare". First SlimVirgin deleted the paragraph I added because she said it was "too long". Then she deleted it saying "don't just list quotes". So I did a complete rewrite, and now you delete it because it is "redundant"? Nice. The intro contains a short sample of the animal welfare POV. It is not redundant with the main text because the main text contains the full background of that POV. Quotes are given more context, etc. Any major point made in the intro should be covered again in the body of the article, or it wasn't worth introducing. It isn't "redundant", it's good editing: introduce the topic in the intro, then go into full detail in the body of the article. FuelWagon 16:45, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

trying to "understand" the "neutral" introduction

Since SlimVirgin is claiming I don't understand NPOV policy, I thought I'd review the introduction that she is claiming to be "neutral" and break it down word-by-word, phrase-by-phrase. Here are a few intersting little tidbits I found in the current introduction that someone who has more "understanding" of NPOV than I, can perhaps explain to me: (FuelWagon 04:50, 26 November 2005 (UTC))

protect non-human animals from being exploited by humans.

Funny, this would seem to imply that to not support animal rights is to allow exploitation of humans. Can someone tell me how exploitation is neutral? Because it would seem to me that there are "animal welfare" advocates who vehemently oppose "animal rights" who would deny that they actually support "exploitation". Now, my "understanding" of NPOV is that if one source makes a claim that is "disputed" by another main source, then you should present both sources. But apparently, people who better "understand" NPOV can somehow interpret it to mean that "animal rights" sources can make whatever accusations they wish, and even if those accusations are in dispute, other points of view are not needed because the article is just "characterizing" animal rights, and so other points of view, even about hotly disputed and emotional terms as "exploitation", aren't needed in the intro. So, someone will have to explain this to me, because to me it just looks like we are letting the pro-animal-rights sources "advocate" their "point of view", and are forbidding other points of view regarding disputed topics. But that's just little ol' me. FuelWagon 04:50, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

not merely to attain more humane treatment for animals

Again, I just have a funny interpretation of this piece. See, it seems to me that it implies that to not support animal rights is to not support humane treatment of animals. And I happen to have a notable source or two with verbatim quotes that dispute that claim directly. But for some reason, we only "characterize" the topic of "animal rights" from the "point of view" of animal rights "advocates", apparently. For some reason the ponit of view of "animal welfare" folks with regard to the idea of whether or not they treat animals "humanely" isn't important. See, that's just more of my not "understanding" NPOV. Because if one source says they want humane treatment by granting personhood and another source says they want humane treatment by guaranteeing "animal welfare", well, to me, that says both points of view must be reported. But apparently, again, we only report the POV of the "advocates" here, because we are just "characterizing" what animal rights "is". And apparently, "characterizing" what something is, is done by reporting the point of views of the advocates, and excluding any other countering point of view. I apparently missed that in the NPOV tutorial. FuelWagon 04:50, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

include many animals within the moral community

And of course, terms like "moral" are completely neutral, non-emotional, non-hot-button, not loaded, and most importantly, not disputed by any other notable source. Yeah, right. FuelWagon 04:50, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

not being made to suffer unnecessarily

Again, I believe the definitino of "animal welfare" directly countered the idea that only "animal rights" will make sure that animals won't suffer unnecessarily. It would seem to me, and I realize that it is probably because I don't "understand" NPOV, but it would seem to me that something directly contradicted by a notable source should be reported alongside the implication that only full animal rights will make sure that animals do not suffer unnecessarily. FuelWagon 04:50, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

non-human animals must no longer be regarded legally or morally as property, or treated merely as resources for human purposes, but should instead be regarded as persons

"must no longer be regarded legally or morally" Wow. Someone who has more "understanding" of NPOV, please tell me how a "moral imperitive" is neutral, even when that imperitive is disputed by a notable source such as the "animal welfare" groups? Because to poor, little, no-understanding me, it looks like a moral imperitive comes with a moral condemnation of anything less than full animal rights, and since I have a notable source that directly disputes that moral imperitive and moral condemnation, it would seem to me that the POV should be reported. FuelWagon 04:50, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

the movement advocates that many animals be given legal rights to protect their basic interests.

Again, I have an "animal welfare" source that disputes this claim. And someone who "understands" NPOV will have to explain why we only report the pro-animal-rights point of view here, rather than both points of view around the topic. FuelWagon 04:50, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

You write: Can someone tell me how exploitation is neutral?. My answer is:

Main Entry:	2ex·ploit  
Pronunciation:	ik-'sploit, 'ek-"
Function:	transitive verb
1 : to make productive use of : UTILIZE <exploiting your talents> <exploit your opponent's weakness>
2 : to make use of meanly or unjustly for one's own advantage <exploiting migrant farm workers>

The second meaning is POV. The first meaning is NPOV. It is not clear to me that your decision to read every word in the piece to have the most antagonistic meaning possible is reasonable.

That being said, I see no reason why one couldn't either (a) change that word to "use" or (b) rewrite it to be MORE point-of-view, but make clear that the point-of-view being described is that of animal liberationists. Nandesuka 13:56, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Article RfC

FuelWagon (talk • contribs) Wrote:I've tried to summarize what I see as biased, disputed, and emotionally loaded language in the introduction

There followed a lengthy discussion that (in large) addressed issues other than article content. The full text of this can now be found at:
Talk:Animal rights/Article RfC.
brenneman 00:02, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Here from RfC..I find the 1st graf hard to read; ideally, it should present the bare bones definition of the subject in question in a concise manner. I have no comment at this time re POV, but I would suggest that a graf later on in the article under "overview" would be a much better choice as the opening graf. "Animal rights is the concept that all or some animals are entitled to possess their own lives; that animals are deserving of, or already possess, certain moral rights; and that some basic rights for animals ought to be enshrined in law. The animal-rights view rejects the concept that animals are merely capital goods or property intended for the benefit of humans. The concept is often confused with animal welfare, which is the philosophy that takes cruelty towards animals and animal suffering into account, but that does not necessarily assign specific moral rights to them." I think that defines the subject pretty well, especially putting the confusion with animal welfare up front, as it is an easy distinction to elide. IronDuke 19:57, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Initial draft of revised intro

I have simply taken the intro as stands, and fixed what I regard as excessively POV language, such as "non-human animals" or "non-human great apes" -- these are not standard English usage, and if used should be placed in quotes, indicating that they belong to a special vocabulary preferred by animal rights activists. The same goes for "moral community," which I left in, but in quotes with qualifying language. I believe it is also possible for animal rights protection to be added to the German constitution without being "enshrined" in it. The one other change that I made was the elimination of a redundancy in the first paragraph, where there are two sentences that say basically the same thing, that animals shall not be regarded as property. I combined them into one sentence at the beginning. --HK 00:58, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

My understanding is that non-human primates (NHP) is a term used by the scientific community, not just animal-rights activists. I would ask that people who want to get involved in editing this do some research into animal rights, rather than just turning up to cause a problem. The article as it stands is an intelligent piece of work, thanks largely to the efforts of Scales. Although it's a good thing to have a discussion about NPOV, I hope it won't lead to a deterioration in quality. SlimVirgin 01:25, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

If it is your understanding that non-human primates (NHP) is a term used by the scientific community, not just animal-rights activists, then it would certainly be appropriate to mention this in the article, with appropriate documentation. However, the term "non-human primates" doesn't appear in the current version of the intro -- the terms used are "non-human animals" and "non-human great apes," both excessively POV. And, I might add, it is rude to characterize editors responding to a RfC as "people just turning up to cause a problem." They are "turning up" because the article already has a problem, which needs input from neutral editors in order to be resolved. --HK 14:09, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Actually, I have apparently taken the intro as it stands after being revised by FuelWagon. I have retained the first and last sentences of his addition, but removed the specific examples of criticism, since the standard format is to place them later in the article. To avoid further flare-ups of temper, I might suggest that future changes be discussed on the talk page before being applied to the article, at least until the article is stabilized. I think that that is the general idea behind a RfC.--HK 01:04, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree. SlimVirgin 01:27, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

draft

Animal rights, or animal liberation, is the movement to assert and establish a status for animals, such that they may no longer be regarded legally or morally as property, or treated merely as resources for human purposes, but should instead be regarded as persons. It is a radical movement, insofar as it aims not merely to attain more humane treatment for animals, but to include many animals within what animal rights activists call the "moral community" — that is, all those whose basic interests (for example, in not being made to suffer unnecessarily) ought to be given the same consideration as our own similar interests. To this end the movement advocates that many animals be given legal rights to protect their basic interests.

Some countries have taken the first step toward awarding personhood to animals. Switzerland passed legislation in 1992 recognizing animals as beings, not things, and in 2002, the protection of animals was added to in the German constitution. The Seattle-based Great Ape Project, founded by Australian philosopher Peter Singer, is campaigning for the United Nations to adopt its Declaration on Great Apes, which would see gorillas, orang-utans, and both species of chimpanzee included in a "community of equals" with human beings, and which would extend to the apes the protection of three basic interests: the right to life, the protection of individual liberty, and the prohibition of torture. For information about individual activists and groups, as well as their aims and methodologies, see Animal liberation movement.

Critics, such as the Foundation for Animal Use Education, state that animal rights leaders show a "fundamentally anti-human perspective". Critics generally support animal welfare instead. The American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA) has defined animal welfare as "a human responsibility that encompasses all aspects of animal well-being, including proper housing, management, nutrition, disease prevention and treatment, responsible care, human handling, and, when necessary, humane euthanasia."

Can you say why you would use the Foundation for Animal Use in Education? It seems to me that if you want to add criticism, a scholarly source would be better than a randomly chosen website. SlimVirgin 01:29, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

"randomly chosen website"? What manner of obfuscation is this? It's a legitimate site, a legitimate source, it well represents the point of view of animal welfare. It stays. You questioned the National Cattleman's URL too. And that was specifically addressing Animal Rights versus Animal Welfare. Basically you question every webstie that is critical of your personal point of view. FuelWagon 01:48, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Oh, and no, I don't support the proposed version. I already had a single paragraph version and that got deleted/reverted by SlimVirgin. I'll work on another one. I'm sure she'll find issue with that too, because it will be critical of her personal point of view. FuelWagon 01:49, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

"It stays"? The reason you used that website is that you know nothing about animal rights, and therefore don't know who the scholarly sources are. That's why you were unable to write an intelligent section of criticism. You are on this page as part of your stalking campaign.

Slim, please Misplaced Pages:avoid personal remarks such as the "know nothing" thing I struck out. Do not descend to the level of those who are pestering you, or I will have to block you too just to be "fair". Do as I do, and hold yourself to a higher standard. Uncle Ed 02:05, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

My point above was addressed to the others who are part of this discussion. I don't see any point in debating with you, and this is my last response to you on the subject.

To repeat: if there is anyone else who wants to use the Foundation for Animal Use in Education as a source in the intro, can you say why you want to use that source in particular? It seems to me that if you want to add criticism, a scholarly source would be better. SlimVirgin 01:57, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

There is a good case for mentioning some form of criticism in the intro. Some forms of animal rights activism have led to violence, stalking (ironically) and release of helpless mink into unhospitable terrain. There must be an authoratitive source to quote as an important critic. Alternatively, we can summarise criticisms elaborated on further down in the article. But the Foundation for Animal Use in Education is a rather poor source for POV balance. JFW | T@lk 02:03, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

This article is about the concept of animal rights, rather than specifically about the movement. There are other articles about animal rights activism e.g. Animal liberation movement. I have no problem with seeing criticism in the body of the article, but I was hoping the intro could be left as a description of what the concept is, and I see what's there at the moment as purely descriptive. However, if a third paragraph of criticism is to be added, I ask only that it be intelligent and use good sources. The problem also is that it's not a question of animal rights versus animal welfare: that's very simplistic. There are groups that support the concept of rights; others that support the idea of "liberation" but not rights; others that support rights or liberation but which campaign for improvements in animal welfare in the meantime; others who argue that campaigning for animal welfare is corrupt because it supports systems that abuse animals; others again who reject the concepts of rights and liberation completely, and only campaign for improvements in welfare. And lots of groups that straddle these various lines, which incidentally are changing all the time. It's too complex for the intro, in my view, unless we make it so simplistic as to be almost false. SlimVirgin 02:29, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't know much about it, but these sounds like the types of distinctions that a good encyclopedia article should make. We don't want Misplaced Pages to say that one side or another's point of view is RIGHT - rather we want to describe what each side SAYS about animal rights. Uncle Ed 02:40, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree, but the question here is how much of it should go in the intro. I say it's too complex for the intro, and belongs in the body of the article. However, if someone can come up with a succinct and accurate way of saying it, using good sources, I have no problem including it. SlimVirgin 02:55, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

This is a third paragraph I put up as a concession to FuelWagon, but he reverted. I'm not wedded to it, but I felt it was an improvement on his list of quotes from one website, and it could be improved further by adding a quote from a prominent animal-welfare group, or from a scholarly text. "The animal-rights position is often contrasted with a concern for animal welfare, and although the distinction is not clear-cut, the animal-welfare point of view is generally that animals under human care should not be made to suffer unnecessarily. Groups that have traditionally focused on welfare tend not to make any deeper philosophical claims about the status of animals or whether they should be regarded as property. Animal-rights advocates, such as Gary L. Francione, argue that the animal-welfare position is inconsistent and ethically unacceptable. However, some animal-rights groups, such as People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, pursue animal-welfare proposals, arguing that, until all animal use is ended, an improvement in welfare is better than nothing." SlimVirgin 02:59, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Personhood

The sentence "Some countries have taken the first step toward awarding personhood to non-human animals" is logically unsound. Persons are by definition human. Perhaps a better term could be found. The whole sentence, incidentally, is gazing in a crystal globe. Who says there will be "person"hood for animals, and who says this was the aim of the legislation discussed? JFW | T@lk 01:52, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

The word "personhood" is being used in the philosophical or legal sense here, Jfd. But your second point — that the aim of the legislation may not be the "first step toward awarding personhood" — is a good one, so that should be reworded. SlimVirgin 01:59, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

There must be a better word. The present version suggests there is no form between inanimate things and persons. JFW | T@lk 02:50, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, that is one of the suggestions of the movement — that some form of legal "personhood" be extended to all living things, to all subjects of a life. SlimVirgin 02:54, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

complete ignoramus passing through here - would "autonomy" work at all? Possibly "Sovereign individuality" a la Nietzsche? "individual legitimacy"? "autonomous individuality"? "manumission" is very possibly closest to desired meaning. KillerChihuahua 04:20, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Refactoring

This talk page is really long. Any objections to me summarising it a bit? - brenneman 03:34, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

I have no objections, Aaron. SlimVirgin 03:40, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Suggestion for further paras in the intro

If we are to have one or two criticism paragraphs (perhaps instead of the current second one to reduce length), here's a suggestion below. Or we could have the current second para, and the first one below as a third. SlimVirgin 06:00, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Critics of the concept of animal rights argue that, because animals do not have the capacity to make moral choices, cannot respect the rights of others, and do not even understand the idea of rights, they cannot be regarded as possessors of moral rights. The philosopher Roger Scruton argues that only human beings have duties and that "he corollary is inescapable: we alone have rights." Critics holding this position argue that there is therefore nothing inherently wrong with using animals for food, as entertainment, and in research, though human beings may nevertheless have an obligation to ensure they do not suffer unnecessarily (Frey 1980 and Scruton 1997). This position is generally called the animal-welfare position, and it is held by some of the oldest of the animal-protection agencies: for example, by the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals in the UK.

Other philosophers, like Peter Singer, argue for equal moral consideration for animals without adopting a rights-based position. Singer argues that a capacity to suffer is a necessary and sufficient condition for ascribing interests to an individual (at the very least, an interest in not suffering); and where it can be established that an individual has interests, there can be no justification for allowing that individual to be treated in a way that ignores those interests, unless we can show that some of the interests are inferior in morally significant ways (Singer 1975). The implication of what Scruton has called this "vacuous utilitarianism," which counts the pain and pleasure of all living beings as equally significant and removes any special moral status from humans, is that we may be forced not only to recognize that the interests of animals are equal to our own, but also that, in some circumstances, they may outweigh those of a human being. It could be argued, for example, that the interests of a fully-grown chimpanzee outweigh those of a human being in a persistent vegetative state. Many critics of animal rights or animal liberation find this conclusion morally repugnant.

• Frey, R.G. Interests and Rights: The Case Against Animals, 1980
• Scruton, Roger. Animal Rights and Wrongs, 1997
• Scruton, Roger. "Animal rights", City Journal, Summer 2000
• Singer, Peter. Animal Liberation, 1975.

I think both of those paragraphs are outstanding and should be included in the article regardless of whether or not we put them in the lead. In regard to the first half of the second paragraph, my feeling is that the distinction between Singer's utility-based approach and a rights-based approach is a bit subtle for the lead and would be better explored in the body. Also, people who want to see criticism of animal rights in the lead will probably not recognize utilitarian critiques of animal rights as really a criticism at all, but rather a bit of philosophical pilpul between groups who agree on basically the same political program. On the other hand, the second half of the second paragraph gets at the nut of what I assume FuelWagon et al want to see, the contention that under some circumstances some animal rights supporters would chose an animal life over a human life. My own feeling is that the first paragraph above would make a good third paragraph for the lead and that the second paragraph above should go in the body. The first paragraph above addresses the basic substantive issues well: for the given reasons opponents of the concept are unwilling to extend rights to animals. Criticism of the Singer position on the chimpanzee vs. vegetative human scenario, or allegations that particular activists or value the lives of animals more than those of humans, should be handled in the "criticisms" section. Babajobu 14:21, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, Baba. I'd be fine with your suggestion: the current intro plus the first paragraph above, and the rest to the criticism section. SlimVirgin 18:07, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

I second Babajobu's comments. SlimVirgin, you've done an excellent job. Scales 18:57, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Good work. We need to represent the topic without judging it, and represent the criticisms without judging them either. This text seems to qualify. -Willmcw 21:28, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Remaining disputes

Thank you, everyone, for the feedback. We seem to have consensus then on having the two current paragraphs in the intro, followed by the first one above, and tweaking the current second paragraph to delete that the German and Swiss legislation is a "first step" toward awarding personhood, per Jfdwolff. And then adding the second paragraph above to the criticism section. I'll request unprotection assuming there are no objections. SlimVirgin 19:09, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

That all depends on what you mean by "the two current paragraphs." If you are referring to the revised intro I posted above, with neutral terms in place of the POV formulations such as "non-human apes," then it's fine with me. --HK 22:10, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Are you saying you disagree with what everyone else has agreed to? If so, why? SlimVirgin 22:23, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

I had just requested unprotection by the way. I'll have to cancel that. SlimVirgin 22:23, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

I am certainly not saying that I disagree with what everyone else has agreed to -- it is by no means clear to me, who has agreed to what. You simply proclaimed that the dispute was over, and as I was responding a few hours later, your POV ally Jayig was unprotecting the page. Then, shortly after you reverted my edits, Jayig reprotected. With this many editors at work on the article, it may take more than two hours to establish whether we really have a consensus.

I made my objections to the POV language in the intro clear. You responded by suggesting that the term "non-human apes" was more or less equivalent to "non-human-primates," which is not the case. You have made no argument to support a contention that "non-human animals" and "non-human apes" are standard usage, and therefore should be included in the intro without quotation marks, or attribution to the pro-animal rights POV. Similarly, the term "moral community" should be in quotes, because the idea of "including animals within the moral community" is way out of the philosophical "mainstream," and saying the the protection of animals was "enshrined" in the German constitution is unnecessary and a bit ridiculous. On the whole, SlimVirgin, this article is an advocacy piece, down to the parody of the Sistine chapel that is "enshrined" in the "great apes" image. Nonetheless, with the minor corrections that I made, and you reverted, I think the intro will do. You should elucidate the grounds for your objections to these minor corrections. --HK 16:30, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

I have rewritten the intro as follows, basing it on the points raised and agreed to by everyone else. Please understand first of all that anti-animal rights is not the default position.

I have retained non-human animal, because the term is widely used by academics and scientists, who also use the term non-human primates (NHPs). The former gets 167,000 google hits, including from academic journals and organizations e.g. the headline of this transcript of a conference call between the world's leading experts on animal pain, including a professor of biology and another of anesthesiology. Putting moral community in scare quotes would be silly: this is a very widely used expression in philosophy, and including animals within it is not "way out of the philosophical mainstream," whatever that means. (What would a "philosophical mainstream" be, and in which area?) "Enshrined" has gone following Jfdwolff's point. The great apes image is the logo of the Great Ape project, which is actively campaigning to have a species other than human beings declared "persons," the only organization in the world to do so explicitly, I believe, and therefore the logo is entirely appropriate. The new intro I've written is below. There is also consensus to add my second paragraph above to the criticism section. SlimVirgin 17:03, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

The below version is improved, but still problematic -- and I question your haste in asserting that it was "agreed to by everyone else." For example, FuelWagon, who called the RfC, has not weighed in. Regarding "moral community," what exactly are "scare quotes"? Quotation marks are used to indicate a usage that is non-standard, or particular to one point of view. I googled "non-human animals" and discovered that it has some scholarly usages, but at least an equal number of hits were from sites that clearly used it as advocacy jargon, such as, for example, Vegan Porn. The website that you give as an example of "scientists and academics" is also an example of the animal rights POV (Psychiatrists for the Ethical Treatment of Animals.) My view is that for the purposes of an introduction to an encyclopedia article, "non-human animals" should be considered both POV and a Pleonasm. I would like to hear from other editors on this question. --HK 21:18, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

You're just being obstructive now, which I suppose I shouldn't be surprised by, as you and FuelWagon turned up on this page to cause trouble, nothing more. Quotation marks are used for quotes. Scare quotes are used to indicate something the writer feels is non-standard, and they are POV for that reason. Moral community isn't a non-standard expression. It's a completely ordinary term in moral philosophy. Regardless of which website the academics were on, they were academics, and perhaps if you spent any time in academia yourself, you would know that the term non-human animals is perfectly routine, just like moral community, and we are describing what animal rights is, so it's a completely appropriate use. However, I'm certainly not going to allow you to hold up unprotection for the sake of that term, so I'll happily delete it. I am not going see scare quotes being placed around any phrases, however, especially not such an ordinary one as moral community. You know, there are people who have put quite a lot of work into this intro, one way or another, trying to make sure it sounds educated. I am requesting again that you stop trying to cause it to deteriorate. SlimVirgin 23:27, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Please avoid personal remarks. And as I said, I would like to hear from other editors on this question. --HK 23:35, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm not making personal remarks. I'm talking about your editing. You're unable to add anything of substance, you want to put scare quotes around perfectly routine phrases just because you're not familar with them, and you're holding up an agreement that everyone else, apart from your fellow troublemaker, has responded positively to. It's poor behavior, and I'm entitled to comment on it. In fact, it's starting to look like WP:POINT, a policy violation. SlimVirgin 23:39, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Animal rights, or animal liberation, is the movement to protect non-human animals from being used or regarded as property by human beings. It is a radical movement, insofar as it aims not merely to attain more humane treatment for animals, but also to include species other than human beings within the moral community by giving their basic interests — for example, the interest in avoiding suffering — the same consideration as our own. The claim, in other words, is that non-human animals should no longer be regarded legally or morally as property, or treated merely as resources for human purposes, but should instead be regarded as persons.

Some countries have passed legislation awarding recognition to the interests of animals. Switzerland recognized animals as beings, not things, in 1992, and in 2002, the protection of animals was added to the German constitution. The Seattle-based Great Ape Project, founded by Australian philosopher Peter Singer, is campaigning for the United Nations to adopt its Declaration on Great Apes, which would see gorillas, orang-utans, and both species of chimpanzee included in a "community of equals" with human beings, and which would extend to them the protection of three basic interests: the right to life, the protection of individual liberty, and the prohibition of torture.

Critics of the concept of animal rights argue that, because animals do not have the capacity to make moral choices, cannot respect the rights of others, and do not even understand the idea of rights, they cannot be regarded as possessors of moral rights. The philosopher Roger Scruton argues that only human beings have duties and that "he corollary is inescapable: we alone have rights." Critics holding this position argue that there is nothing inherently wrong with using animals for food, as entertainment, and in research, though human beings may nevertheless have an obligation to ensure they do not suffer unnecessarily (Frey 1980 and Scruton 1997). This position is generally called the animal-welfare position, and it is held by some of the oldest of the animal-protection agencies: for example, by the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals in the UK.

visitor from rfc: the introduction reads like a (slightly polished) manifesto, not an encyclopedia article. it is too long, takes many assumptions for granted, & uses language like "first step" implying positive progress, to give one small example. Appleby 01:58, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, Appleby. The new intro is above (first step has gone). We're just waiting for one editor to agree to it. SlimVirgin 02:04, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

I think the article is coming along nicely. I would add (or subtract) a couple niggling things. I really don't like the phrase "in other words" in the first graf. I think it implies that the first words used were inadequate or too complex for mere mortals, and thus need further exposition. I think the phrasing could be tweaked, e.g., "The claim is..." and just go on from there. Or maybe a different transition. I also wonder whether there is a place at the beginning to say just exactly what sort of organization or organizations call themselves animal liberation, etc. It isn't until we get to the second graf and a brief mention of Singer and the GAP that we get the notion that there is a "movement" as opposed to some theory held by disparate individuals who have independently reached the same conclusion. I trust that criticism is going in its own section, maybe after the table of contents jump. The third graf is a little unclear: one could draw from it the idea that a) Scruton is an animal welfare person (I don't know: is he?) and that all people who hold the Scrutonian view (that animals don't have rights) are animal welfare people. (Also, is it wikistyle to put cites in such as " (Frey 1980 and Scruton 1997)"? IronDuke 02:49, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Good points, IronDuke, thank you. About the animal rights/liberation distinction, we have another suggested paragraph for the intro (see the three above, and then this would be the fourth). See below. It goes into liberation/rights, but other editors said they'd prefer to see it in the criticism section. It would be hard to say anything of note about the various movements in the intro without it getting very long, but maybe I'll try to think of something. Regarding animal welfare and who is/is not: I think everyone who isn't animal rights would say they're animal welfare, because the only other alternative is to say we owe animals no duty of care whatsoever and may cause as much suffering as we want, a position no one will admit to holding, as a rule anyway. So in that sense, Scruton counts as animal welfare, but in reality, his main thing is just to argue against animal rights. Finally, the cites in brackets are called Harvard referencing and it's one of the citation styles allowed by WP:CITE. Thanks for these comments. They're very helpful. SlimVirgin 03:24, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Other philosophers, like Peter Singer, argue for equal moral consideration for animals without adopting a rights-based position. Singer argues that a capacity to suffer is a necessary and sufficient condition for ascribing interests to an individual (at the very least, an interest in not suffering); and where it can be established that an individual has interests, there can be no justification for allowing that individual to be treated in a way that ignores those interests, unless we can show that some of the interests are inferior in morally significant ways (Singer 1975). The implication of what Scruton has called this "vacuous utilitarianism," which counts the pain and pleasure of all living beings as equally significant and removes any special moral status from humans, is that we may be forced not only to recognize that the interests of animals are equal to our own, but also that, in some circumstances, they may outweigh those of a human being. It could be argued, for example, that the interests of a fully-grown chimpanzee outweigh those of a human being in a persistent vegetative state. Many critics of animal rights or animal liberation find this conclusion morally repugnant.

sorry for not reading this discussion more carefully before commenting. the above version is much better. personally, i think as a matter of organization, the first paragraph is fine as the introduction; both the country examples & criticisms should be integrated into the organization of the whole article. & just as an aside, i did not realize that "animal rights" was by definition such a radical movement; a casual listener of the media or people just not very interested in the topic might often consider "animal rights" to include the mere right of the animals to be free from abuse. just my thoughts. Appleby 04:22, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

External links

We seem to have a lot of 'em. On another page (like Loudspeaker) I'd just clean up and get permission later. However, I'll go gently here. Any reason we need this many? Refering of course to Misplaced Pages:External links. - brenneman 00:34, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Animal rights movement

I was editing and someone was reverting my changes so I'll post them here in case my addition to the intro gets reverted. Here is what I want to add:

"The animal rights movement mostly consists of morally bankrupt violent extremists intent on spreading propaganda throughout the liberal media, while those opposed to their views are generally nihilist sociopaths, more generally, evangelical Christians waiting for the apocalypse."

Judging from the tone of the article, this seems to be correct. What do you guys think: put it in or leave it out? --Ben 00:47, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

missing section..?

What happened to the Animal Rights and the Media secion that spoke about the Animal Voices radio show? I was going to add links to other AR radio shows.....

I deleted it because it seemed to be a plug for a radio show. If you have other information about animal rights in the media, by all means restore and expand it. SlimVirgin 20:58, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Do you think if it is appropriate if I list it (and the other animal rights radio shows) under "resources"? I think it is important to note that there are radio programs as well as magazines, newspapers, etc., that are dedicated specifically to exploring these issues.. The one radio show in particular has online archieves with all the interviews they have every done... all the authors mentioned on this page are there. What do you think? Jan 11, 06

Francione riposte 'detailed'?

That "detailed" bothers me some, since the chunky two paragraph quote it produces as evidence has little detail to offer against the very specific charge concerning NAZI anti-vivisection legislation. The legislation was enacted almost ten years before the Holocaust really got underway. Critics do not make the comparison Francione avers. Instead, in my understanding, they are pointing out that in order to promote animals in status, it is necessary to demote humans from the existing, pre-eminent status we have afforded ourselves in our laws. That is, one must have a conception of humans which verges on losing the capacity to differentiate between humans and beasts. The bestial treatment of humans that ensued in the NAZI case adds oomf to the argument, but is not its fundament. The NAZI anti-vivisection philosophy is taken to be an early-warning sign of a general philosophical readiness to demote human beings. I just don't see how the Francione bluster here amounts to a riposte, let alone a detailed one. Adhib 23:53, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Point taken. I changed the formulation to "Gary Francione has produced a response to one such argument." IMO, Francione's response is pretty ineffectual, since it basically boils down to "Why pick on the Nazis? There were other brutal, dehumanized (one might say, bestial) societies that also made a fetish of animal rights." --HK 20:53, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

"Social contract"

I removed the part about how critics say that animals "do not have the capacity to enter into a social contract." First of all, I am not certain that it is true. Pets or domesticated animals that are not confined might be said to be willing participants in some sort of arrangement. More importantly, the concept of a social contract comes from John Locke, whose conception of human relations ought generally to be considered bestial. And finally, no source was offered for the inclusion of that item under "critics say," so I removed it until someone wants to document it. --HK 16:05, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi! I too believe it is untrue that animals cannot enter into social contract. However, this argument has been used by some critics of animal rights, e.g. Tibor Machan. Tom Regan has argued against contractarianism in many of his articles, for example, read The case for animal rights. Contractarianism is an important issue in the Animal rights debate. deeptrivia (talk) 20:00, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for finding that source, DT. I've put social contract back in with the source as an embedded link. SlimVirgin 20:08, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi DT, I see you deleted the link and created a footnote instead. This article has been using embedded links and Harvard referencing for sources, not footnotes. See WP:CITE about not changing from one style to the next. Also, someone keeps wikifying years. See the MoS. Only full dates are wikified. SlimVirgin 20:34, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Oh, I got what you are saying. I was planning to change all references to footnote style very soon. But I guess it's fine the way it is too. I had wikified some years, sorry about that. I didn't know the policy. Thanks. deeptrivia (talk) 20:46, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Schopenhauer's critique of Kantian ethics

Arthur Schopenhauer's critique of Kant's exclusion of animals from his moral system is based on Kant's Groundwork of the Metaphysic of Morals, where he argues that "humans have an inherent dignity that makes them ends in themselves, whereas animals are mere means to our ends." He argues that we do have a responsibility towards animals, but an indirect one. I looked on all relevant articles on wikipedia, and none of them explains this aspect of Kant's philosophy. Maybe it will be appropriate to explain it here since it is directly related to the animal rights debate. Also, ever since Darwin published The Origin of Species, this "inherent dignity" theory is widely debated, in our times for example, by Peter Singer. This is a good reference worth a read. deeptrivia (talk) 02:34, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Further suggestions

Typically, a discussion on animal rights also includes Descartes' automata theory ("animals are automata that act as if they are conscious"), Aquinas ("since animals cannot direct their actions, they are merely instruments that exist for the sake of humans"), and Carruthers who extends Rawls' concept of Justice as Fairness to argue against animal rights. Right now I pulled these out of my head, but can find out references. I think these inclusions will make the discussion more complete. deeptrivia (talk) 04:16, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Comment by 68.37.99.133

Ultimately, Dr. Peter Singer has the correct, utilitarian point of view. Words and phrases such as "exploitation" or "rights" are useful to a degree, but what matters is ultimately 1) the good outweighing the bad (utilitarianism) 2) the good outweighing the bad for those who deserve it (justice), i.e. to those who do not initiate force.

It is mathematically certain that utilitarianism and justice will be in conflict in any dispute over any moral or political issue.

Game theorists have formalized these concepts, making the drivel of armchair critics is worthless and obsolete, with notable exceptions of those who take groundbreaking, original ponits-of-view, such as Dr. Peter Singer.

So, all these debates about what some animal rights soldiers or organizations have said are trivial and irrelevant. What matters is what they do, the sacrifices they have made against insurmountable odds, and the suffering they have vastly reduced.

Fighting for animal rights should be viewed absolutely no differently than a judge or police officer fighting a burglarly, or soldiers fighting Nazis in World War II. Compromises will always need to be made, but that is always the fault of the non-animal rights side. Many take the view that war for animal rights is justified, and that those who oppose this war to outlaw factory farming and breeding animals for food in an age of technology where we can get our protein from non-animal sources are unpatriotic cowards.

Removed quote

This was removed:

• "Among all civilized nations, Germany is thus the first to put an end to the cultural shame of vivisection! The New Germany not only frees man from the curse of materialism, sadism, and cultural Bolshevism, but gives the cruelly persecuted, tortured, and until now, wholly defenseless animals their rights. Animal friends and anti-vivisectionists of all states will joyfully welcome this action of the National Socialist government of the New Germany! What Reichschancellor Adolph Hitler and Minister-president Goering have done and will do for the protection of animals should set the course for the leaders of all civilized nations! It is a deed which will bring the New Germany innumerable new elated friends in all nations. Millions of friends of animals and anti-vivisectionists of all civilized nations thank these two leaders from their hearts for this exemplary civil deed!" R.O. Schmidt, "Vivisection Forbidden In Prussia", Die Weisse Fahne {The White Flag} 14 (1933) : 710-711.

1) It is too long for the quotes section, where we normally go for bite-sized, and this article's quotes section is long to begin with. It also doesn't make a point about animal rights; its point is that the end of vivisection will bring glory to the New Germany. We are not concerned about the glory of the New Germany here. The quote would make more sense on a page about the Nazi party.

2) It is POV pushing. Discussing comparisons of the animal rights movement with Nazism is completely appropriate in the article body, where these comparisons can be faithfully considered. But the quotes section should contain quotes that directly address the issue of whether animal rights are a good or a bad idea. The quote itself doesn't make a succinct or poetic point about animal rights--it is the fact that it is obvious Nazi propaganda that makes a point. That context means that the quote cannot be taken seriously. It is POV pushing via a kind of straw man argument. If you disagree, please see (1) and please do not revert before you reply here. --The Famous Movie Director 08:16, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

I think your argument has merit. However, I now think that the "Analogies to the Nazis" section ought to be fleshed out a bit. When I wrote that section, I weighted it toward the rebuttal by Gary Francione, because the quote that you removed was already in the article. Now, that section needs more documentation from the critics. --HK 15:56, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

abolition of vivisection is not the same as ARXanax 00:51, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

"It is to elevate amoral animals to a moral level higher than ourselves, a flagrant contradiction. Of course, it is proper not to cause animals gratuitous suffering. But this is not the same as inventing a bill of rights for them, at our expense."

-Ayn Rand.

I think this quote and perhaps an economists view on animal rights would be a much better idea than the 'nazi' argument. After all arn't the majority of industries affected by Animal Rights Terrorism capatalist industries: drug industry, animal products, cosmetic industrys? I mean SHAC think they are waging a guerilla war within the stock market. Most animals are considered capital arn't they? The majority of animals I come into contact with are packaged, apart from when I see cows in the field... thats not NPV tho.. heres another quote to go with it..

"a tiny group of activists (SHAC) succeeding where Karl Marx, the Baader-Meinhof gang and the Red Brigades failed" -The Financial Times.

I just think the whole nazi discussion is just plain BAD TASTE from either side!Xanax 10:35, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Quote

This quote doesn't seem to have anything to do with animal rights (in that it makes no argument that, because animals "do not survive by rational thought," they should have no rights), so I'm thinking of removing it. Any objections? SlimVirgin 06:02, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

"Animals do not survive by rational thought (nor by sign languages allegedly taught to them by psychologists). They survive through inborn reflexes and sensory-perceptual association. They cannot reason. They cannot learn a code of ethics. A lion is not immoral for eating a zebra (or even for attacking a man). Predation is their natural and only means of survival; they do not have the capacity to learn any other." -Edwin A. Locke (author of "The Prime Movers")

General Criticism

1.) do you present "both sides" of racism? Is there a section on "critics of, eg, black equality?" Should there be? If no, why do the same here?

2.) Delete the passage on Nazis. Anything we can agree is good was used by someone we can agree was horrible. Remember, Mussolini made the trains run on time. Should all trains be late because a bad person made them on time?

3.) The final criticism from Stephen Hawking should be deleted, unless he has the ultimate authority to define what a "more worthwhile cause" is. If person A believes that stopping ending a form of oppression is worthy enough to persue, who is person B to say that his favorite cause is more worthwhile?

4.) The original criticisms list could use some improvement, since it's left off in the middle, as it seems. It ends with "since non-human animals aren't capable of moral decision making." You should add the following points: (1) Yes, some apes are capable of some form of morality. (2) Moral judgement doesn't lead to rights. Brain-damaged humans (and babies) are entitled to rights, despite this lack of moral thought. The claim that the moral judgement "test" should not be administered by the individual is mentioned, but glazed over. It seems strange that your rights should depend on a test given to me. Furthermore, if mentally disabled humans don't take the test, but are included because others have passed, why not non-human animals with similar mental status? If they aren't included, why? "They're not human" is morally meaningless. (3) The article states that non-humans kill each other without thinking that it is wrong. This justifies letting humans do it? The argument seems to say: "Non-human animals are incapable of moral thought. Because of this, they act immorally towards each other. Therefore, we should be able to act immorally to them." It seems strange to say someone is immoral, and then look to them for moral inspiration.

5.) The "criticism" that non-human animal rights can be anti-human never criticizes the concept. It only attacks several of the concept's promoters. Whether Chris DeRose thinks it's justified to experiment on one rat to save an incurable disease (a purely hypothetical and impossible situation nonetheless) is irrelevent to whether non-humans should be entitled to legal rights. It certainly wouldn't make humans second-class citizens to do so; when everyone is equal, there are no second-class citizens.

6.) The section on animal welfare needs to be redone. "Animal Welfare" asks that we must provide for non-human animals "all aspects of animal well-being, including proper housing, management, nutrition, disease prevention and treatment, responsible care, human handling, and, when necessary, humane euthanasia." Some terms are vague, such as "proper" housing and "responsible" care, but the position can be classified in two general ways.

• The terms above can be defined to allow what we do today, i.e., eating flesh, experimenting, and such. These are "humane," and can be done. This position is identical to an almost complete disregard for non-human animals. Perhaps killing a pet cat is wrong, but killing a chicken is fine. How is that different from the standard anti-rights position? Being in favor of this kind of "animal welfare" while opposing rights serves only to make one more respectable whilst continuing the practices one does not wish to give up.

• The terms can be defined to exclude what we do today, i.e., we have a moral responsibility not to eat flesh or perform painful experiments on non-human animals. Of course, a "universal moral responsibility" not to injure non-human animals would be enforced by law. Once a law, it becomes a right. This position is identical to non-human rights.

I can do most of the writing, but these problems must be addressed.

67.101.25.61, you should take the time to carefully read Misplaced Pages's policy on article neutrality. You appear to disagree with many of the criticisms mentioned in the article, but they are widely held beliefs and must be included, so that the reader may be aware of the controversies which surround the animal rights movement. I am also of the opinion that your understanding of some of these criticisms is faulty; for example, those who compare the animal rights movement to the Nazis are not doing so because the two movements, by sheer coincidence, held similar views on vivisection -- they are making the comparison because there is a deeper similarity, a philosophical outlook that blurs the distinction between human and beast, and in the view of these critics, that distinction is of absolutely vital importance to defending the modest advances that human civilization has made in the course of the last 500-600 years. --HK 21:33, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

HK, Yes, I understand how you need to be neutral. However, many people, even today, are of the belief that some humans, whether they be black, Jewish, low-caste, or in some way different, are inferior. If you look at the wider world, it is highly controversial to suggest that all humans are entitled to equal rights and considerations. Look at fundamentalist terrorists who hate Jews; at many Americans (I'm looking solely at my own country here) who hate blacks; at the Christians (and, perhaps members of other religions) who think people who don't practice their beliefs are inferior; and at the vast majority of Americans who believe homosexuals are not entitled to equal rights. Perhaps you should include criticisms of the idea that all humans are entitled to equal treatment in the human rights article? Why do the two receive unequal treatment? Either include "criticisms of human rights" or include refutations of criticisms of nonhuman rights. Oh, and I never asked you to delete them; just to add the responses to them.

As for analogies to the Nazis, there are none that can be honestly made. Nazis did not come up with the idea of partial liberation of nonhumans "by chance," no, and yes, it did result from "blurring the distinctions between human and beast," assuming "beast" means any nonhuman. This does not mean that there is any honest analogy to the idea of full nonhuman liberation; you're comparing apples and rotten apples, in a sense. Nazis take a position against equality— they start with the idea that "not everyone is entitled to equal rights." Who gets made "superior" and who "inferior" is somewhat arbitrary. If it's a valid criticism of rights for nonhumans, it's also a criticism of rights for white, blue-eyed, and blond-haired humans. Today's nonhuman equality stems from the idea that everyone IS equal, and should be treated as such. Saying that Nazis' granting of rights to nonhumans is an argument against such rights means that you're looking to the Nazis for moral inspiration.

There is another passage, though, which must be deleted.

"Some critics, such as Alan Herscovici, of the Fur Council of Canada, claim that 'Virtually none of the money they collect is used to fund humane shelters, develop better animal husbandry methods, or find cures for diseases. Instead, donations pay the salaries of professional organizers, subsidize more fund-raising, and fuel sensationalist campaigns against animal-use industries.'"

What is Mr. Herscovici advising nonhuman rights organizations to do with their money?

1. Fund humane shelters 2. Develop better animal husbandry methods 3. Find cures for diseases.

Well, let's see.

1. Fund humane shelters.

This is a worthy cause, but not the cause they persue. These organizations are about liberation, i.e., banning slavery, torture, etc. Humane shelters are to care for dogs and cats who rely on caring humans. It's a worthy cause, but not the same one. To use an analogy, an abolitionist in pre-Civil War South wants to end slavery. He may focus on providing support and health care for free blacks, and will almost certainly agree that this is a worthy cause. However, HIS cause is to abolish slavery. Both are important causes, but one shouldn't expect an organization devoted to one to persue the other.

2. Develop better animal husbandry methods.

OK, where to start here? Perhaps disbelief. Is he really stating that organizations opposed to slavery of nonhumans should be spending their money developing better ways to exploit slaves? The organizations OPPOSE the use of non-human animals! It would be a criticism of them if they DID try and develop better ways to use them! Nonhuman rights organizations hope to STOP the murder of chickens for their flesh; how would their money be better spent developing "better" ways to raise chickens to be murdered?

3. Find cures for diseases.

This is unrelated. Finding cures for diseases is a worthy cause, but a different one. These organizations work for nonhuman equality, not cures for disease. Even cures for nonhuman diseases are a different cause; they're worthwhile, but have nothing to do with liberation.

What is it that non-human rights organizations do, then? He lists three things, which he is opposed to.

1. Pay the salaries of professional organizers 2. Subsidize more fund-raising 3. Fuel "sensationalist" campaigns against animal-use industries.

Well, what about this?

1. Pay the salaries of professional organizers.

This is a standard cost. Organizations have staff. Employees are necessary. Employees have to be paid. This can't be avoided.

2. Subsidize more fund-raising.

Since the organizations rely on fundraising, a percentage of their funds must be alloted to bringing in more. Spend $2, and bring in $25, for example. It's a necessary and unavoidable cost.

3. Fuel "sensationalist" campaigns against animal-use industries.

Organizations working for non-human rights oppose those who vioate non-human rights. Animal-use industries violate non-human rights. Therefore, organizations working for non-human rights oppose these industries.

In short, Mr. Herscovici says that non-human rights organizations should:

1. Start funding two causes irrelevant to their own
2. Start funding one cause that contradicts their own
3. Stop funding their own cause
4. Stop paying basic operating expenses

Mr. Herscovici does NOT give any criticism of nonhuman equality. He only presents a jumbled and incoherent notion of what organizations working for nonhuman equality "should" or "should not" do. Therefore, even if a "criticisms" section is needed to provide balance, this passage has no relevance in it.

Again, please carefully read WP:NPOV. This article does not and should not draw any conclusion as to whether Mr. Herscovici is right, wrong, misguided, or a fuzzy thinker. It only reports on the fact that he makes this criticism, and he is not the only one making it. With respect to the Nazis, please take note of the fact that one half of that section is taken up by Gary Francione's rebuttal to the argument. If you know of someone who is notable and makes a more effective rebuttal than Francione, please suggest it on this page. --HK 15:30, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

eregweeet

HK, Yes, I see the part about the rebuttal of the Nazi comments. I must have missed it before. The thing is, is it really POV to eliminate jumbled and meaningless criticisms? Leaving Mr. Herscovici's remarks in place clouds the article with misinformation. Unless the reader thinks it over carefully, it seems to imply that non-human rights organizations spend all of their money on irrelevant or meaningless matters and are essentially hypocrites. Does Misplaced Pages check deeper and evaluate what people say, or merely aim for balanced "he said, she said" without carefully examining information to check for coherence, validity, or (depending on the issue and statement) factual truth? Most of the media in this country adopts a tepid NPOV in which two opposing sides are presented equally, with each side's argument presented verbatim, with no or little subsequent fact-checking, but this is far from ideal.

Regarding how charities spend donations, the newspaper Animal People (http://www.animalpeoplenews.org) produces an annual report that summarizes the assets, budget, overhead, and program costs of more than a hundred animal protection organizations and a handful of "opposition organizations", so readers can see what organizations are using donations most effectively. The newspaper also lists the salaries of the top staff in these organizations. The latest report (Dec 2005) can be found at http://www.animalpeoplenews.org/05/12/watchWhogetsthemoney12.05.htm (pdw) 08:17, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Herscovici isn't a well put criticism, and it should be placed somewhere other than AR because its not AR. Niether is the Nazi one and same should be done. I'll add find better criticisms on my list of things to do, because this is shoddy and not wiki standard.

The anti-human section needs the Gary Francione position as the utalitarian positions is not genrally used by ARA. Also Fruitarian belifs are not an adoption of parody AR groups, but have exsted seperatly for some time before the otherXanax 01:19, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Animal Lib vs. Animal Rghts

these are two distinctly diffrent philosphies and movements and I believe that this article could be broken down to these diffrent topics and more information added. Xanax 00:35, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

History of AR

I am at some point soon going to attempt to write a little history on AL/AR for this page, any suggestions for inclusions or snippets can be posted as drafts hereXanax 00:44, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

United Animal Nations

I wonder, there is no mention of United Animal Nations, and no Misplaced Pages article, yet they were coming into New Orleans when all others were evacuating. Does anyone have more information? Chris 20:47, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Comparisons to Nazis

This part is completely ridiculous. There's no need for it whatsoever. Just because the Nazis did something, and animal rights activists do it to, it doesn't make animal rights activists Nazis or make their actions in the least bit similar. This is a clear and obvious logical fallacy.

Are we to add to the page of vegetarianism that Hitler was a vegetarian as a 'criticism'? Are we to add to the page on dogs that because Hitler had one that's a valid criticism of them as a species?

An utterly idiotic and specious paragraph. Remove it in a week or I'll do it.

I completely agree with the sentiment. There have been very very many leaders who committed extreme acts of genocide and destruction who had or have no regard for the welfare of animals. Those who implemented the holocaust were overwhelmingly meat eaters.

If anyone wants to replace the section, they should have a convincing reason to do so. At the moment it stands as a fallacy. Mostlyharmless 06:24, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

While it is true that Hitler's doctors put him on a vegetarian diet to cure him of flatulence and a chronic stomach disorder, his biographers such as Albert Speer, Robert Payne, John Toland, and others, have attested to his liking for ham sausages and other --Joewithajay 00:39, 12 March 2006 (UTC)cured meats.. http://www.veg.ca/newsletr/mayjun96/hitler.htmlXanax 00:32, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Argreed. It's guilty-by-association logic, and was far too unfocused. I've never even heard this argued before seriously. --Joewithajay 23:21, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm putting it back (and moving this discussion to the end of the page, so that we don't disrupt the continuity.) Allow me to point out two things: first of all, it's not guilt by association; whether Hitler was a vegetarian is irrelevant. The quoted section makes clear that there is a very specific philosophical commonality between the animal rights movement and the Nazis. Secondly, whether you agree with the criticism is not important under Misplaced Pages policy. The question is whether the source is notable and verifiable, and it is both. Removal of information for other reasons is considered vandalism. --HK 07:20, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

I've reverted. It's a silly section and original research. What you can do is take the material about Hitler and have a section about "Animal rights in the Third Reich." But without reputable sources saying today's animal rights activists are like Nazis (or whatever the bizarre claim is), the section as it stands violates WP:NOR. SlimVirgin 07:26, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

It is not orginal research. It reports on what is in fact a rather wide-spread argument, sufficiently common that Gary Francione, who is listed in the article as a prominent animal rights theoretician, has responded to it in more than one location. I think that the cited commentary by Martin Hulsey is useful because of its meticulous historical documentation. However, in case it is your contention that he is not notable as a critic of animal rights, I have added a quote from Kathleen Marquardt, one of the principle bogeymen of the animal rights movement, where she makes the same argument. --HK 15:09, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

(About comment in 'history') Removal of cited material isn't "vandalism" if said material is an obscure theory that doesn't seem to have any fitting in an already long article. I've seen it mentioned several times on this discussion that the section simply is unneeded and, at best, uses weak logic - but it shouldn't be removed because I don't agree with it, it should be removed because this isn't an accurate reflection of the counter-argument on the subject (if anything it seems like it's written so animal-right supporters can almost laugh at the opposition’s case). And it does feel like original research to me - despite a few comments from Gary Francione. --Joewithajay 18:49, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

I've made the original source -- Martin Hulsey -- specific, and added another, Kathleen Marquandt. You may debate their value as sources, but it is clearly not original research, regardless of how it "feels." And if you are not fully satisfied with these sources, I am willing to add more; there is no shortage of critics who espouse this point of view. You can't wish it away, so please don't try to sanitize the article. --HK 23:36, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

My concern boils down to this - there's 4 key criticisms of animal rights in the article, and if we include the Nazi comparisons section, it communicates that this is used as an argument by roughly 25% of opponents (maybe moreso, since the section is so longer than the other arguements). I know that's not how it works in reality, but to include it within arguments which are used much more frequently gives it a false sense of importance. Maybe we could compromise and include it under ‘other arguments’, since, even if it was a topic of discussion, I doubt it’s still one used in modern debate (and if it is, could you cite recent examples?). --Joewithajay 00:39, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

I removed the Nazi section, but added it to the 'Animal rights can be anti-human' section. The Nazi section was referring to this argument anyway. Right now consensus is against having a whole section on the Nazi argument, so please leave it in its current form until we've discussed it more fully and not let this turn into an endless revert contest. (I see you reverted another removal of the section earlier today, without responding to discussion here) --Joewithajay 19:05, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

I didn't respond on the talk page to the other removal, because it was done by an anonymous editor who left no comment. I don't have a major problem with what you have done, but I think the Hulsey quote should be included, because it provides the documentation as to what the Nazis actually did. At one time, this was included in another section of the article, then got moved to the "Analogies" section; I think it should be preserved. I have added it to the "anti-human" section, and I hope that this is an acceptable compromise. --HK 21:33, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

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