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Audio for Mamata Banerjee

Someone has asked me for an audio file for the Hindi pronunciation of Mamata Banerjee's name. I'm not able to make such a file - would anyone here be willing to make one? (A file for the Bengali pronunciation would be useful too, but it's specifically the Hindi pronunciation that I've been asked for.) --Zundark (talk) 11:50, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Titodutta (talk · contribs) might be able to help, if I remember correctly he's uploaded a couple of ogg files for Bengali names. I'm not sure what you mean by Hindi pronunciation, it's a Bengali name -- both first and last names are uniquely Bengali, while the first has a Hindi variant, the latter doesn't. —SpacemanSpiff 12:59, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

• Actually Banerjee isn't very Bangla, it is an English corruption, bangla prefers Bandopadhya and is written বন্দ্যোপাধ্যায়. Mamta can be pronounced मोमता / ममता, audio file will depend on whether the speaker is speaking Bangla or Hindi or English. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 08:57, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure what I mean either, but I've pointed the user to this page, and he can ask Titodutta if he wants to. Thanks for your help. --Zundark (talk) 15:12, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

I think you can upload the Hindi pronunciation of Mamata Banerjee, however the pronunciation of Hindi in that article is incorrect, i guess someone has to correct it. "(Hindi) ", "(Bengali) " or "(English) /mɑːmtæ ˈbɒnɛə/.--Kkm010* 04:37, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Please respond.--Kkm010* 05:01, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Sorry I cannot provide the pronounciations in IPA, but I believe the phonetic pronounciations are:

English: Mum-taa Banner-jee

Hindi:Mum-a-taa Bun-err-jee

Avenue X at Cicero (talk) 12:59, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Right, I think we can upload the Hindi pron, what you think which one should be uploaded the Hindi or Bengali pron. I know that you can't upload, but other editors can therefore we can request them to upload the original and correct pron.--Kkm010* 13:08, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Please someone respond and try to upload the pronunciation.--Kkm010* 13:52, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Need some opinions on Talk:Kurmi#Undue_weight_on_.27Shudra.27_varna

Disambiguation of place names

Please see Misplaced Pages talk:Naming conventions (geographic names)#Places in India.

I think India is big enough to use the same convention of disambiguation with levels below country and not with country as do Australia, Brazil, Canada, China, Ireland, Italy, Mexico, South Africa, the United Kingdom and the United States. The all use "X, statename", "X, territoryname" or similar if disambiguation is needed. If no disambiguation is needed, the articles on localities in India can use the plain place name of course. So no mandatory disambiguation as is done with the US. Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 16:01, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Comment left; very interesting and important proposal. MatthewVanitas (talk) 17:25, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (India):

I suggest that places in India use the state or district for disambiguation and not "India". India is such a large country, 2nd most populous, that it will be much more clear to use a lower level. Otherwise, it would be like using "Europe" for places in Europe.

A list of places that would need renaming is at Talk:List_of_cities_and_towns_in_India#Analysis_of_disambiguation_tags.

If these are renamed, all articles left as "X, India" should be set index articles, as in Category:Set indices on populated places in India. This is good for automatic checking with bots. Bots could even create these set index pages.

Maybe you can reply at Misplaced Pages talk:Naming conventions (India). Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 14:58, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Cleanup needed at Varna (Hinduism)

Hari S. Kartha

Hari S. Kartha could use some help. The article needs sources, but I don't know where to look. I found a reference for his being the editor of Janmabhumi newspaper, but couldn't find more. I'm guessing the needed sources would be offline or not in the English language. Cloveapple (talk) 01:09, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

I've merged Hari S. Kartha into Janmabhumi. I'm not sure it satisfies WP:CREATIVE as the only reliable sources I could find about him were trivial and just mentioned his position as chief editor.  Office of Disinformation  11:31, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

How to spell bulbul tarang in Hindi and Urdu?

The article bulbul tarang has no local-language spellings in its lede; does anyone know how to spell this in Hindi and Urdu? MatthewVanitas (talk) 16:51, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Phonetically: "बुलबुल तरंग"  Office of Disinformation  17:13, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Appreciated, but I have the same problem with your version as I had with my phonetic guess at Urdu (I'm a Persian speaker): neither one brings up a resassuringly large number of ghits for the instrument in question on GoogleImages. Yours does get the instrument as its first hit, but no other pics of that same item. I would expect that if we had the spelling right we'd get pages and pages of people selling, discussing, etc. the instrument, and GI would be full of various pictures of them. I don't know if my methodology just isn't a workable way to verify the spellings, or if we're both off somehow. Ideally, I'd like to find someone who is familiar with reading about the instrument and knows exactly how it's spelled. If nobody here is 100% sure, I can go to a specifically South Asian music forum and ask the musicians there. Thanks for the stab though, I tried the same for Urdu. MatthewVanitas (talk) 16:05, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:Bonfire Night (disambiguation)#Requested move

You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Bonfire Night (disambiguation)#Requested move. Trevj (talk) 23:35, 17 July 2011 (UTC)Template:Z48

Discussion at Talk:Bonfire Night#Requested move

You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Bonfire Night#Requested move. Trevj (talk) 23:35, 17 July 2011 (UTC)Template:Z48

Deletion of a SIA page

The set index page Begar, India has been deleted. Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 16:00, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

What can be done to prevent such deletions? Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 16:05, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

As I mentioned on your talk page, please ease up on the moves and creation of new dabs with redlinks. Most of the pages (e.g. Rameswaram) are WP:PRIMARYTOPICs and should reside in their current titles. Likewise, there's no point in creating dabs with redlinks. cheers. —SpacemanSpiff 16:07, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

These are WP:NOTDAB but WP:SIA pages. And there is a lot of use in these SIA pages, e.g. see Hosur, India - several India templates linked to Hosur, but meant Hosur's in more than a dozen different districts. I collected this information, so people can take more care with their links in the future. Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 16:16, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

But please do not move pages until you send them through WP:RM; you are moving primary topics to disambiguated titles. —SpacemanSpiff 16:26, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Note also that WP:SIA is not a standalone guideline. You need to figure out whether or not a title is a primary topic or not. Thus, Rameshwaram doesn't need disambiguation because the city in Tamil Nadu is clearly the primary topic. Set Index articles are not disambiguation pages and you shouldn't disambiguate just to create an SIA. You might also want to consider whether a SIA is necessary for places with the same name because all you'll end up creating is a disambiguation page anyway and an SIA is not meant to be a disambiguation page in the first place. --rgpk (comment) 16:33, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Ok, you disagree with Rameshwaram, but why got Begar, India deleted? I repeat SIA are not DAB pages. And one does not need to disambiguate to create SIA pages, these are separate matters. SIA pages, if they are at "X, India" are completely separate from the article names. Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 16:44, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

You are better off asking that question to the deleting admin than on this page. —SpacemanSpiff 16:47, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Why do you only attack me, and not him? You could also go to his page and say he made an error. Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 16:53, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

There is no attack anywhere in my posts, I have been patient despite the fact that you have created unwanted effort for everyone else by breaking links etc and you accuse others of being "anti-Indian". Quite some nerve really. —SpacemanSpiff 16:56, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

I create content, I fix links going to "X, Y" but meaning "X, Z". You attack me again, by calling this work "unwanted". I fixed a lot of links in templates. Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 17:17, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

States of the Indian Union inferior to U.S. states?

See Misplaced Pages talk:Naming conventions (India). Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 16:46, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Bogdan, can you refrain from phrasing this as accusations of racism/nationalism, and instead focus on the technical reasons why specific state names are used in various country articles, and how those also apply to India? Yes, there is a chance that endemic bias plays a role here, but unless you have some hard evidence of that and can address it dispassionately, it's unlikely to be a productive argument. Further, as you yourself note at the page, many other non-Anglo countries use the same naming conventions as the US; it's unlikely that Brazil somehow has more English-speaking supportive contributors than India. Lastly, you have already posted a request for input (and in more neutral terms) earlier in the page. This kind of POV phrasing gets close to WP:Canvassing, so suggest you remove this (feel free to remove my comment here too) and stick to your original posting, and keep it to technical arguments as to how state-based naming would make India articles more clearly titled. MatthewVanitas (talk) 13:54, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

No MV this is all pervasive, on Ganga too, it was told that it cannot be called national river, when it was pointed out that the Bald Eagle is called National Bird of the US, the argument put forward was that it was a bird. So we have these stupid circular arguments. Which makes one wonder whether the only reason is that this wikipedia has one set of rules for India and another for US/UK?Yogesh Khandke (talk) 14:01, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Not to go any deeper into the Ganga/Ganges thing, but the article does indeed say the following: In November 2008, the Ganges, alone among India's rivers, was declared a "National River", facilitating the formation of a Ganga River Basin Authority that would have greater powers to plan, implement and monitor measures aimed at protecting the river.. Secondly, yes, endemic bias is an issue of concern, but vague accusations are just going to raise ire, when instead what would be more productive is an actual analysis of how alleged endemic bias is negatively affecting Misplaced Pages. The naming convention issue seems like it should be easily resolved on technical merits, and if somehow that can't be sorted out without some sort of bias blocking it, then that leads to a larger discussion. Thirdly, the section title is still inappropriate; even if it were a discussion on endemic bias, it would need a neutral title like "Discussion of alleged endemic bias in India articles", not a clear leading question "is India inferior?!?!?!?" MatthewVanitas (talk) 14:12, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

They finally got it, it seems, I am not editing the article, was having trouble with a know all. Of-course my point can be checked from the archives of talk and article pages. If anyone wishes I will dig and provide them.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 14:21, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm not doubting there was a dispute, though I would suspect that part of the issue was the difference between "The Ganga is India's national river" and "The Ganga was declared India's national river on X date by Y legislation (footnote)". Nationalism is a very concerning issue, and it's too easy to accuse others of racism/orientalism/bias rather than take a hard look at whether one's personal national feelings are getting in the way of objectivity. Endemic bias is certainly a concern, but such accusations would be far more credible if, say, someone not emotionally involved in India issues were bringing them up. If someone strongly interested in Indian politics alleges bias, motivation is complicated, whereas if a Korean or South African or Chilean editor popped in to say "I think there is too much British/American bias on this topic" that would be far more interesting. Kind of tangential, but I'd like to see more non-Indian editors covering India topics, and more Indian editors taking a neutral and unemotional academic look at, say Bolivia-Chile disputes, the decolonisation of Nigeria, and other such topics where their perspective and detachment would be a valuable addition. MatthewVanitas (talk) 16:23, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

I think it should be apt to explain the assumption of non-bias of non-Indian editors more clearly, and standards by which assumptions are made; as also for assuming the bias behavior of Indian editors. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 16:39, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Article on Phensedyl (cough syrup) abuse?

There appears to be a goodly amount of media coverage of abuse of Phensedyl (cough syrup) in South Asia. Rather than just a passing mention in India/Nepal/Bangladesh legal/drug/health articles, might it be best to centralise it to Phensedyl (currenly a redirect to the chemical article Promethazine), or DAB it as Phensedyl abuse or similar? This appears to be one of those topics where it might be easily overlooked academically, but yet still has enough media/NGO coverage to cover its social impact. MatthewVanitas (talk) 17:21, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Is this "addiction" unique to South Asia or a just a delayed entrant to South Asia? I would think it's the latter, in which case a general article would be better and perhaps a section on South Asia should suffice. —SpacemanSpiff 17:25, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Ah, I should specify: I think that Phensedyl overall (as a commercial product) may rate an article separate from its purely chemical article, and that this new article could have a section on abuse, which would include its South Asia abuse. We could just put all the South Asia content into Promethazine and then add S. Asia categories to that chemistry article, but that might be distracting. Form a new article for the commercial product based on the chemical Promethazine? MatthewVanitas (talk) 18:00, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Looking more into it, a huge portion of gBooks hits for "Phensedyl" cover its abuse, so I think it should be a valid topic itself. Vaguely curious as to whether we're going to get any guff from corporate interests of the maker, but from what I'm seeing on Google it would not be UNDUE in the slightest to go quite into detail on abuse of this cough syrup, particularly noted in the UK and in South Asia. Should probably be able to get a cool pic of the bottle too. MatthewVanitas (talk) 21:18, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Sanjay Gandhi Jaivik Udyan

Not speaking Hindi, and having been confused by many of the zoo names that I have been dealing with, I went to the dictionary. Shouldn't this be rendered (in the English WikiPedia) as Sanjay Ghandi Biological Park to be more understandable to English speakers? Donlammers (talk) 17:46, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Akrura Copyedit

I noticed the above page in the GOCE backlogs and went to work on copy editing. However, the prose is so confusing that I don't know where to begin with it. If a member of this group could give me a hand in understanding what was written, then I would be most grateful. If not, then I will have to try my hardest to go through the article and clean it up. Please drop me a line on my talk page if there is anyone willing to help. --Skamecrazy123 (talk) 21:12, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Hi! I too tried it. But i dont have enough knowledge of this character. Hence instead of meddling with it i left it alone. Maybe you should try some notable contributors of that article. -Animeshkulkarni (talk) 07:17, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Algar, Uttara Kannada

I have been informed that I should seek permission before bannering an article to your WikiProject. So, should Algar, Uttara Kannada have a WPINDIA banner? 65.93.15.213 (talk) 04:40, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

List of Lata & Asha's songs

Please refer to the discussions at Talk:Lata Mangeshkar. Please give your views there or here. -Animeshkulkarni (talk) 11:01, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

For start, we have begun with Lata's songs. So now you can help here.... User:Animeshkulkarni/List of songs by Lata Mangeshkar. -Animeshkulkarni (talk) 12:15, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Lavanya - help please

Aurel Stein's work on Kalhana refers to a "tribe" that he called the Lavanyas. Although that is a common enough name for a person, I can't find an article about the tribe. Has the name evolved into something else during the last century? They would have been in the Kashmir/Lohar area. - Sitush (talk) 17:39, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

If I'm not mistaken, that was just a translation of Rajatarangini. You could try a search for sources discussing the original book. —SpacemanSpiff 18:17, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes, it was a translation but with copious discussion/critique etc. I've been using it at Lohara dynasty, Didda, Kalhana and others. All of which will need further sourcing when I get round to it. - Sitush (talk) 18:23, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Two more dodgy publishers of India-related content

I think it is fairly well known that the output of Gyan Publishers/ISHA Books is very dodgy from a Misplaced Pages POV (and perhaps, for them, from a legal POV also). Their reprints are often mangled but it is the modern works that present the real issues.

I have long had doubts about Anmol Publishers and MD Publications. Both of these I have now found to have blatantly used content without attribution on at least one instance, albeit from a 1900 source. These have been published as if they were written by the author named on the cover but in fact include huge "copyvios" of Aurel Stein, with the very occasional word changed. So, beware of:

• Culture and political history of Kashmir, Volume 1 "by" P. N. K. Bamzai, M.D. Publications Pvt. Ltd., 1994 ISBN 818588031X, 9788185880310
• Kashmir: a wailing valley "by" M. L. Gupta, Anmol Publications PVT. LTD., 2001 ISBN 8126109513, 9788126109517

It is quite amusing to see how GBooks thinks that Gupta has been cited all over the place: that is because the sentences it has indexed are ripped off from other, older works!

Maybe these are already known to be "dodgy" for our purposes, but if not then they are now. - Sitush (talk) 19:42, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Thats a pity. I have read some pretty good works by Anmol.--Sodabottle (talk) 20:07, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I've seen a few that I thought were ok but wasn't actually comparing them with anything else. It might be a blip in their case (although the typos in that particular book are appalling). I think that MD Publications is likely a more serious situation. Both books cover much more than just the Stein content, so they could pop up just about anywhere and who knows what other info in them many have been inappropriately derived. These assemblies of other works worry me and, of course, in extreme cases such as Gyan we know that sometimes they have actually filched info that came from WP in the first instance. - Sitush (talk) 00:32, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Shri Krishniji

Is Shri Krishniji another name for Krishna ? I have the feeling that the -ji is a belief-oriented suffix. - Sitush (talk) 01:16, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

No worries - found the answer to my own question. - Sitush (talk) 02:27, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Sitush and Kurmi

Misplaced Pages talk:Naming conventions (India)

A discussion here on the naming of Indian populated places (Crusoe8181 (talk) 07:31, 21 July 2011 (UTC)).

OK, has been mentioned, so far up the page I missed it!! (Crusoe8181 (talk) 07:33, 21 July 2011 (UTC)).

Thanks for repost here and for the comment at the NC talk. Below is a result of my recent work on the names. Cheers Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 15:48, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Removed template, place only a link: Template:Ambiguous names of populated places in India.

There are now 100 WP:SIA pages that list populated places of India having ambiguous names. Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 19:31, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Clean up goes on: 150 SIA pages. Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 13:01, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Clean up goes on: 200 SIA pages. Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 02:28, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Clean up goes on: 258 SIA pages. Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 01:00, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Request for Review

I see that review is pending for Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_creation/Piyush_Pandey. While it seems to be a reasonably well-written article for someone who is contributing on Misplaced Pages for the first time, I find it tragic that most reviewers there seem to be working as gatekeepers rather than enablers. It reads far better than most stubs. I believe that we should keenly follow AFCs for articles with India focus and help review/ enrich the same. People who are usually active in AFC or those otherwise interested in Indian articles on Misplaced Pages may please weigh in. --Gurubrahma (talk) 17:23, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

United Provinces

There are several India-related articles (e.g. 1891 Census of the United Provinces, Bihar famine of 1873–74) that link to United Provinces, which is a disambig page. I'm trying to disambiguate that link, but the best candidate, United Provinces of Agra and Oudh, didn't come into existence until 1902. So can anyone clarify what these inks are referring to? Colonies Chris (talk) 21:50, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Until 1902, the region was known as North-Western Provinces and Oudh. The former was a province of British India with a Lt. Governor at the helm; the latter was a Chief Commissionership. In the Bihar famine article, North-Western Provinces is meant; in the other article, I'm not sure. Depends on whether Oudh was included in the census. It likely was, given that it was the third census of British India. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 22:32, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

PS. I left the "United Provinces" in—in the famine artcles—because I feared that the average Joe Shmoe could mistake North-Western Provinces for North West Frontier Province which the British annexed much later, and which is now in Pakistan. However, Misplaced Pages has now matured, so go ahead and change those links. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 22:46, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

PPS Yes, the page should be moved to "1891 Census of the North-Western Provinces and Oudh" (see here for evidence, and here as well.) Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:03, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. A further question related to this: according to United Provinces of Agra and Oudh,

From 1856 to 1902, the region existed as two separate provinces, North-Western Provinces and Oudh.

But according to North-Western Provinces,

In 1856, after the annexation of Oudh, the North Western Provinces became part of the larger province of North Western Provinces and Oudh.

These two statements seem mutually incompatible. One combined province or two separate ones? Colonies Chris (talk) 10:13, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Another related question: the article United Province should properly be titled United Provinces, I think, as the plural form appears to be the official name. But this would bring it into conflict with the disambig page that already exists at that location. Would it be acceptable to rename it to something more specific, such as "United Provinces (1937-1947)"? Colonies Chris (talk) 10:25, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

In the infobox it exists until 1950, that would mean United Provinces (1937-1950), that is also what is given at United Provinces. Also the box says this was a presidency, but then it is wrong in Category:Provinces of British India. The latter and Category:Presidencies of British India could need a check. Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 01:02, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Disambiguation by district

There are ca 638,000 villages and more than 5100 towns, for details see states and territories of India. With 640 districts that leads to more than 1000 villages/towns per district on average. Only 10 districts have ambiguous names within India. So it could help a lot to use the district as the default disambiguator for all the villages if disambiguation is needed.

Would like to hear your feedback at Misplaced Pages talk:Naming conventions (India)#Disambiguation by district. Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 04:17, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

With 43 mio people on average per state, the area defined by the primary dab term is far way off from what is done in other countries. Analysis at Misplaced Pages talk:Naming conventions (India)#Disambiguation by state or district compared with dab in other countries. Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 14:40, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Senior Advocate and notability

Do Senior Advocates in India meet the requirements of Misplaced Pages:Notability_(people)#Politicians? I rather think that the position is a "state-wide office" and so would scrape through on these inherent grounds. - Sitush (talk) 12:53, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

No. a "senior advocate" is just a lawyer. Many of those who practice in the supreme court of india may meet our notability requirements through WP:GNG (because of involvement in high profile cases etc) but the rest are just lawyers.--Sodabottle (talk) 15:48, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

That is what I was concerned about. A (probable) COI editor has added his own name to a list of notables & created /P K Ravindranatha Menon. The latter article either needs good sources fast or should be deleted on notability grounds. His writings certainly do not qualify him for notability, and the inherent notability of being a Senior Advocate does not exist per your comment. I'll try to source some stuff & PROD if nothing found. Thanks for your help. - Sitush (talk) 16:12, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Templates for populated places in Karnataka

Tinucherian created templates for populated places (labeled villages/towns) in Karnataka, they can be found at Category:Karnataka district templates. They are quite large and I think should be replaced in the future, maybe on taluk level. Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 12:37, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Just adding: They are a big help in finding ambiguous place names in Karnataka. Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 12:38, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

No, they should not, these are navigation templates and should not have any redlinks whatsoever. If there are no articles for a village they should not be on this template. The problem is that editors who try to add some content do not have the time to keep up with these sort of edits. If you want help strip out all redlinks. (Crusoe8181 (talk) 10:28, 25 July 2011 (UTC)).

Where does it say that templates cannot contain red links? It was probably a lot of work to create them and you want to delete some of the stuff right in the middle of them because it is red? This is highly destructive. What before is a complete set is then an arbitrary subset. Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 23:05, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Bias by authors from outside India?

With 43 mio people on average per state, the area defined by the primary dab term is far way off from what is done in other countries. Analysis at Misplaced Pages talk:Naming conventions (India)#Disambiguation by state or district compared with dab in other countries.

I also have seen that some articles have even been directly created with the taluka as disambiguator, i.e. even below the district. In light of that, I wonder why we cannot drop the states and use at least the districts. UP has 199,581,477 inhabitants, all other countries in the analysis are more precise with their dab terms. Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 14:41, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Bogdan, again: can you stop using inflammatory language to try to get people to come to your discussions? It's not very civil and rather desperate to post leading questions like "Is India inferior?" and the like; that's not asking for discussion, that's rabble-rousing. You've also posted several new sections about the exact same overall issue on this page. Why not have one section (with a neutral phrase inviting discussion vice "OMG everyone pile into my side of a fight!!!") and then update it with new info or stats as needed, or if the discussion changes pages, etc? Right now it's near to just spamming the page with repeated calls to the exact same issue. MatthewVanitas (talk) 04:48, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

3 editors (including me), who have participated in those discussions and havent agreed with you are indians. If you keep on insulting people who dont agree with you on the basis of nationality and accuse them of bias, dont expect a productive discussion there. From what i see, the examples you have provided dont warrant a default disambiguation by district level and have said so. You have provided a list of counter examples, which IMO weaken your argument further (disambig by district isnt a panacea as, among cases where disambig is needed even district level disambig isnt enough). Precision doesnt depend on the population or number of villages, it should depend on the repetition of place names and the necessity for disambig. From what you shown, i dont see how default disambig by district is any better than disambig by state. I have even provided you with names of other editors who are experienced in geographical articles and can provide more input. So do not make this issue into some sort of "respect for indians", "we have so many people, they deserve the respect by disambiguating by district". This sort of behaviour is beyond disgusting and puts off editors from contributing to even serious issues like the ones you have bought up. Stop automatically assuming anyone who doesnt agree with you are a)non-indian and/or b) suffering from anti-india bias.--Sodabottle (talk) 05:13, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

I am afraid that there is a small group with this tendency and that appears currently to be very active. They are open about it and their input probably accounts for 50% or more of the comments on this page, including in the collapsed areas. I am on the verge of walking away from the project due to all of the harrassment and accusations of bad faith. They will doubtless cheer if I do but without wanting to blow my own trumpet, it will be the project's loss. - Sitush (talk) 07:38, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

A blanket statement like "bias by authors from outside India" is not very fair. We should discuss specific cases, and not a supposed general editing trend of non Indian editors. Lynch7 07:43, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

@Sitush Could you be more clear on "there is a small group with this tendency and that appears currently to be very active. They are open about it and their input probably accounts for 50% or more of the comments on this page, including in the collapsed areas" please.

As far as assumptions about "the harrassment and accusations of bad faith", "doubtless cheer", "project's loss", etc. it seems mutual to me, whatever it is.

@MikeLynch the "more-neutral-than-Indian" types of contradictions have not yet attracted any comments, why I wonder. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 07:51, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Thisthat2011. Yogesh K and MangoWong, for starters. But you already knew this. You have contributed to an atmosphere which numerous people have described as being now poisonous. I can do without it, plus the death threats, the harassment, the bad faith and the tendentiousness. There is more to Misplaced Pages than fighting, although you seem not to realise it and your contribution histories seem to reflect a tendency to talk rather than act (eg: YK has 40% article edits, you have 48% and MangoW has 35% which all seem to me to be on the low side for a non-admin, but what do I know). Just my perception of where things are at. My respect for contributors from India has taken a nose-dive although I try to convince myself that you are a minority. - Sitush (talk) 08:08, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

This disgusting trend of "if you dont agree with me, you are anti-Indian" accusations has to stop. This is wikipedia not a rediff/Times of India comment board where people throw infantile accusations at each other. Editors who have spent thousands of hours creating and maintaining India related content are being attacked by talk page warriors of being "anti-India". This sort of behaviour has to end now.--Sodabottle (talk) 08:24, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, these handful of self-appointed defenders of India's honor, are wasting a lot of valuable time of other editors. They wear you down with fluff. I'm glad this issue is being discussed on the talk page so they can be truly seen for what they are. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 08:36, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Could someone link me to discussions where this poisonous atmosphere has been created?  Office of Disinformation  08:52, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

I do not want to sound presumptuous but you appear probably to be a new user (registered 17 July, although you're very good with formatting, getting involved in CfD, merging etc & so perhaps edited as an IP beforehand). If you are a new user then it might be best to keep out of this because it may rapidly involve wikilawyering etc. However, for an example just cast your eye up this page to what is currently section 6 - "Need some opinions on Talk:Kurmi ..." If you understand the policies, guidelines and conventions of this place, you will understand why that thread is problematic. Apologies again if I sound presumptuous. - Sitush (talk) 09:00, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Just read various sections in this page, the topic of this section or this talk page. --Sodabottle (talk) 09:03, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

I am not sure about hazy accusations of India-POV/anti-India-POV/nationalist-POV/Anti-nationalist-POV though it is mutual however infantile; which does seem to be present at many places. About talk-page warriors, lets see the kind of POV that goes about on pages in India, for examples, "the title "Mahatma" is also an essential part of the official iconography of Gandhi constructed by India's government", or 'A page name change to "Mahatma Gandhi," could make Misplaced Pages less credible, as it could be seen as submitting to popular (especially nationalist) sentiment.' at Talk:Mohandas_Karamchand_Gandhi#Requested_move. I don't think related editors got any warning for such POV, though it will immediately pointed out that anyone saying anything against it is 'Indian/nationalist POV pusher'. Such blatant systemic bias is visible but I wonder why it is unnoticed yet; though learned quickly act when anyone says anything against it terming it 'nationalist POV' as above. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 08:57, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Sitush: I'm new, yes, but familiar with policies. I'll read the discussions.  Office of Disinformation  09:13, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

No probs, and again my apologies for presumption. In the ideal world, we all work together. A combination of local knowledge and non-local "disconnection" could achieve wonderful things here, and often has. Right now, all that is being achieved is a meltdown in certain areas due to vexatiousness. I have spent most of the last few weeks engaged in explaining policies etc to people whom I know are intelligent and aware of those policies but are choosing instead to push their agenda in a counter-productive way. It is counter-productive if only in the sense that they are not getting what they want but they are tying up vast amounts of other people's time, which most of those people would rather spend creating and improving the under-represented India-related subject area + encouraging new contributors who have a genuine desire to do the same. - Sitush (talk) 09:24, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Sodabottle: you shut me up when I brought the subject up the last time, forget terminology, forget what someone said to another, some time. How do you see persistant remarks to the effect (not verbatim), plague from India is ruining Misplaced Pages, caste warriors, pov indian nationalists, facists. Soda a bloke thinks I am omni-present, I called him incompetent, another fellow on the Ezava talk page too called him that, he doesn't seem to understant that we are not socks, his edits are in-comptent. Why is this fellow given such a long rope? This guy even reverted article talk page edits. (2)Soda would you have got away with the things that are said on the Gandhi move, say on the British Empire page? Let us not indulge in wp:OSE. Treat each case on merit is all I say. You joined cause with him on the India talk page, I say you are free to take any side as I am, take it on merit. If you have some issue with me please discuss, the attack on me was unwarrented, on India page and here. There is a lot of talk on meat-sock would you give me a few solid reasons why Mohanstutter Karamwhatnot Gandhi can't be moved to Mahatma Gandhi?? Please Soda you are free to ignore everything and I would not hold it against you, but for every word you put in prepare to back it with a diff. You too have the same previlege of course. New eyes looking at this: For starters see the arguments against the move to Mahatma Gandhi, one fellow there feels that it would be the fall of another colonial bastion, he argues that nationalist freaks are pushing the move. That the move would besmear Misplaced Pages.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 09:39, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

{ec}} I haven't bothered looking at the Gandhi stuff but if YK has correctly stated that someone has expressed concern about "nationalist freaks" then I can kind of sympathise with that (although freaks is a bit strong). Rightly or wrongly, there is some extreme stuff going on right now that, quite simply, runs counter to how things are done here. If people do not like the policies or guidelines then they need to get those changed, not fiddle around the edges on a few articles. You never know, the wider community may be in agreement but they are never going to see the point if it is confined to 1o or 15 articles. So, prepare a proposal for fundamental change to those policies etc which you have issues with, and post it at the appropriate venue. Which is not here, nor any individual article's talk page. - Sitush (talk) 09:59, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

It is strange indeed, though users like Fowlerx2 should understand that labeling such as like National-POV may reflect labeling as anti-national-POV. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 09:48, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

YK, a) I havent named you here. I made the above comment in direct reply to Bogdan's comment and behaviour. Do not put words in my mouth. Where did i attack you? b) I didnt shut you up earlier. I told you to open an RFC and not to indulge in sensationalism like claiming admins "slaughter hundreds of new Indian editors" without any basis. If you think this is "shutting you up", then i have nothing else to say to you. c) I too have commented on the Gandhi talk page move with a a weak oppose. I dont find anything wrong with the rationales put forward by both sides.

If you find problems with any particular editor's behaviour bring it up in the relevant forum. Instead you are here bringing up an issue that i commented upon two weeks ago. Funny you cant find any instance where i have opposed Fowler's proposals. (here is a hint - look at the indian inventions and discoveries talk page). would you have got away with the things that are said on the Gandhi move, say on the British Empire page. I have commented on various topics during my time here and no one has insulted me using nationalist epithets until Zuggernaut and Bogdan choose to do so. Oh yes, my "fellow indians" got there first.--Sodabottle (talk) 10:09, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

(1)No Soda I first want to know here whether the fault is mine or not, informal first. (2)It does seem to be an India wide issue, it is not just someone from Maharashtra who seems to find problems, but it seems it is all-India, Northern - Southern - Eastern - Western all directions. There obviously is a huge issue. (3)I brought the old thing up because, you stood up for someone against me, it is like getting at me, quite unprovoked and hurting. (4) Ya Soda, I too called Redtigerxyz lots of names, I am sorry about that, perhaps he understood what I felt like and excused me and didn't make an issue of it. You see sometimes the argument becomes so exasperating that people call names. Which is bad. No excuse. But are you holding life long grudges? Also I am happy that you never had to face trouble like nationalist etc., you could be a sobering voice in this clamour, but please take sides only on merit. There was no need to tag and bite like the other day. It was a shock. (5)What are you going to do about: The Mahatma Gandhi move is a nationalist issue, Mahatma is Indian government hardsell, MKG is a colonial bastion that has to be protected to the last comma? And other non-sense??? Does this nonsense not hurt you as an Indian editor?Yogesh Khandke (talk) 10:30, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

• (edit conflict)::(1)Ya and I used words like shut up etc for brevity, also that admins are rougher on Indian editors can be proven, I was blocked at a drop of a hat, reason - troll - pov, nationalist etc. On the other hand when another editor (who has used words like indian nationalist) does 3R you see an admin scramble for reasons why not to block him, just one example, another editor used foul language about Hindu deities, the admin just raised his eye-brows at him, for a similar offence a fellow is in the slammer, while the other guy is a bull in a china shop. (2)The words to the effect slaughtering Indian editors by another editor. To my knowledge you are not an administrator, why should this then hurt you? My exact words are I have also read that certain admins slaughter hundreds of new Indian editors for "nationatialist pov", I can provide diffs to back that. You didn't comment about the sock thing though and the rest.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 10:44, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

But there is part of your problem, Yogesh. You are trying to see things "as an Indian editor". You should be trying to see things as an "editor". Disconnect from your environment. If you find this difficult then go edit something that is in fact not connected to your environment. That way, there is no COI. I am not telling you to do this but your situation is a classic outcome of COI. - Sitush (talk) 10:34, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

See Sodabottle: A block before the ink dried on this page , the blocking administrator Boing said Zeebedee's name is mentioned there he shouldn't have blocked imo, he is involved in the dispute. A sock is a machine thing, why circumvent the system before the sock is proved??? Answer this Sodabottle, and what could you do about it please??? If Boing feels it is nonsense he could initiate action, why does he want to sweep things under the carpet??Yogesh Khandke (talk) 11:02, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

If you did your research, Yogesh, instead of jumping up and down with indignation, you would note that (a) the poster linked to a defamatory external site that has been discussed at ANI; and (b) BsZ has referred to matter to SPI for independent checks. What is your problem? - Sitush (talk) 11:06, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

I brought the old thing up because, you stood up for someone against me, it is like getting at me, quite unprovoked and hurting This is your problem. I have had plenty of discussions with you and Fowler, when i was active in the India talk page. In which i have opposed and supported in you equal measures. The comment i made about the "pigs" was in direct response to your sharp retort. When you start referring to an argument as "wrestling with a pig", people will point that out. I have said similar things to Fowler when he has become irritated and insulting. (dont take my word, go through my contributions. i have been interacting with him for a long time. I even supported some parts of Zuggernaut's original proposal to add famine in the history section in India). You cannot honestly expect to label talk page arguments as "wrestling with pigs" and people not react sharply to it. Did i follow you after and keep at it?. It was a one time reply and i left it as such - this is me dealing with things in a case by case basis. But all you remember is a "you stood against me".

. To my knowledge you are not an administrator, why should this then hurt you?. This is not about me being hurt. This is about you bringing up unrelated stuff in this forum and throwing baseless accusations and indulging in sweeping generalisation. Did i say "i am hurt, so dont bring it up?". If you have diffs go ahead and bring them at ANI or AN. It is the relevant place where admin behaviour is discussed. Not here and not without diffs (i still dont know what prevents you from bringing the issue there, if you have proof).

Now coming to MKG. The first two points a) The Mahatma Gandhi move is a nationalist issue b) Mahatma is Indian government hardsell are IMO legitimate but very marginal arguments. But i dont see anywhere in the page where "MKG is a colonial bastion that has to be protected to the last comma". or anything of that sort. And regarding hurt. Some random guy in the internet says Gandhi is not "Mahatma" and i should be hurt about it? Why? because i am an "Indian". or because Yogesh Khandke expect all Indians to be hurt?. Do we now have uniform rules for how all indians should feel and be hurt about?. Are you now devising rules for other indians?. Are you presuming to think for all of us now. Dont try to straightjacket all of your fellow countrymen into a behavioural code of your own devising. (BTW, the Mahatma has seen worse criticism from Indians - both from the left and right).The problem is you are viewing every issue through a Indian vs non-Indian prism (or emic/etic as you prefer) and expect others to do so and rally to your support because of our nationality. When we are in the same side all is well, but when we end up taking the other side, you take it as "you stood up for someone against me, it is like getting at me" --Sodabottle (talk) 11:10, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

(1)You have made a lot of hypothetical arguments, which I will ignore. I am happy that you are happy. Let me also stay that way, I never got into your soup? I am happy with what you have said regarding sensibilities as an Indian. Like you said, we have different sensibilities and motivations. I am happy with all that. Even twins argue a lot. So what? Also your Gandhi move part will be remembered by you, whichever way it goes. And no I don't lift people's skirts to check their gender, see Gardner's page where I corrected her two Indian editors comment. Even on the Ganga move I had opposed looking at the nationality of the voters. I have always said there are only competent editors and incompetent editors, the fellows are incompetent. (2)One friend is in the gutter for wrestling with our friend, the wrestle comment was for him, why could someone make common cause with that, check the diffs there wasn't a word between the two of us, I don't even remember any hot arguments we had, why would I call discussing with you wrestling with a pig. (3)I don't want to force you to answer the other questions, but sometimes silence speaks louder than words.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 11:45, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

the wrestle comment was for him, why could someone make common cause with that, check the diffs there wasn't a word between the two of us, I don't even remember any hot arguments we had, why would I call discussing with you wrestling with a pig. When you start labelling anyone opposing you as a "pig", anyone else can and will reply. Did i imply you called me a pig?. You were calling Fowler names and i interrupted sharply there. I remember doing the same thing when Fowler was arguing with CarTick. (Have i followed you into all your arguments - No, Have i followed Fowler into arguments - No. I comment where i see fit, be it fowler or you or any other editor i am replying to). But all you remember is me taking "common cause" with fowler on this one pig issue. This us vs them mentality is what preventing you from seeing things objectively here and defending obvious trolls like drbose7--Sodabottle (talk) 11:57, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

"A block before the ink dried on this page" are you really sticking up for an obvious troll like drbose7?. You are damaging your credibility by standing up for a troll/SPA who peddles an offwiki attack site that says sitush got paid 400$ an hour for editing wikipedia?. Do we stick up for sock masters, trolls and vandals because they are "one of our own"?. Did you even look into this or the relevant archive. IMO BsZ made the correct decision - i would have done the same in his place. Dont believe me?. Go ahead, bring this up in ANI, you will see what other admins adn editors think of this.--Sodabottle (talk) 11:22, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

I too was once blocked with those same words troll. Another time a sock investigation was brought against me. Zeebedee should have explained in detail on the fellows talk page and then blocked him. Then a person like me would have known. Incompetence. But you won't say anything about that. Isn't it as bad as a troll? Like I said there are only two types, competent and incompetent. I am not standing up for anybody but myself, I WONDER whom you are standing up for, ya that is all brother Sodabottle. Because I never said a word about you. The block was a demo of the statement I shared, slaughter of Injuns, mind you it isn't my baby, all you can hang me for is gossip. Did you see the tag under the blog, it says Why wikipedia is unreliable, which hurts. Did I peddle??? I brought it to the notice of founder of Misplaced Pages and to the CEO of Misplaced Pages, is that peddling? I immediately informed Zeebedee that I had pasted the link there. No dear it isn't peddling. In the meanwhile Zeebedee says he has redacted don't know what that means will check it out.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 12:14, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

This is not "demo of slaughter". This is not incompetence. This is exactly how an admin would deal with a troll peddling an attack site. Attack sites aren't new, SPA trolls arent new. And this particular one had seen a ANI discussion very recently. If you are so concerned about "slaughter of the injuns", go ahead, bring this or any other block to the ANI. Instead of wondering about whom i am standing up for, why dont you present your evidence at ANI?. Did i say you were peddling. I said drbose7 was peddling and you sticking up for him. I will say this finally - if you are think you are correct, go ahead an report BsZ at ANI (instead of going on and on about "slaughter of injuns" and giving off wiki attack sites more visibility.)--Sodabottle (talk) 12:24, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Sodabottle :(1)My bad on peddler, you are right, you didn't say I was peddling. (2) Brother I will go for AN/I, I will jump into a well, since you were so free with kind advice to me, what about a little wisdom to the fellows? Of course it is your life. (3)How do you assume that DKBose wasn't a newbie who serendipitously found his way here? Because he sang a different tune? I told you fellows have been called trolls and blocked for a fortnight, on a whim. Did you see the images that come up when you search troll, I used a standard English phrase wrestle with a pig, you went oink oink on that, you are not playing fair, but it is your life and you are its master. God bless you.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 12:38, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Folks, this really does seem to be getting rather over-heated and emotional. Should anyone ever see someone blocked and not understand why, then the first thing to do is go ask the admin who did the block - I will always respond to a polite request to explain any of my admin actions. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:40, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Brother I will go for AN/I, I will jump into a well Of course you woudlnt, because you dont have a shred of proof to back up your wild and baseless accusations and if you repeat this there, it will boomerang on you. You will only post here hoping to get a few fellow indian editors to support your cause, by appealing to the "home team". But when challenged to repeat the charges at AN or AN/I you will backtrack. Your reluctance confirms that you are just blustering here.--Sodabottle (talk) 18:56, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

If I ever see any of the money that I am allegedly been paid then I'll pass it on to Yogesh & he can donate it to a charity of his choice. But since I will not see it, that won't be happening. Why, Yogesh, did you feel it necessary to post on the pages of Jimbo and Sue Gardner when it has already been dealt with at ANI? - Sitush (talk) 11:28, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

As for Gandhi, Yogesh Khandke is shedding crocodile tears, for he himself is on record on Misplaced Pages very publicly opposing the title, "Mahatma." I can easily find the explicit diffs for these posts. In fact his scruples about "Mahatma," didn't allow him to enter the fray until very late (19 July 2011) and hypocritically vote for "Mahatma Gandhi." I believe his only reason for reason for doing so was spite against me. Consider also his reply to my post on this user talk page (by "pariah," he means Vinayak Damodar Savarkar, whose page he assiduously maintains and whom I had called a "pariah"). However, his posts with the blog link—to a likely miffed Wikipedians blog—on Sue Gardner's talk page is a new low. If he continues in this fashion, the community should explore a topic ban for Yogesh Khandke for disruptiveness in the manner they did for Zuggernaut, and perhaps for Thisthat2011 as well while they're at it. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:06, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Going by the discussions, it seems like, whatever one does, he is victimised. And a discussion grows from three lines to multiple pages at the drop of a hat. I am tired of discussions ballooning with comments being stated, restated, and re-restated. And at the end of it, all we get is heated heads, a long long discussion page, and sarcastic comments on other threads. This thread is a good example of why an Indian editor would not choose to edit. Lynch7 13:17, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

How about actually banning Fowler&fowler for giving unsubstantiated nonsense against Mahatma Gandhi for some time. Looks a very valid reason for throwing muck during a move at someone who is indeed a Mahatma, and whose picture is present in US Senate office of the president of the United States of America. Banning is not an alternate to present some sources before putting muck out like that. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 13:22, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

This is probably the exact sort of emotion which should be avoided to make edits neutral; is Gandhi actually a Mahatma, probably yes, but it is immaterial in the context of the Requested Move. Lynch7 13:38, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

I wasn't talking about the move. I was talking about how muck was thrown on the Mahatma and people looked the other way and are now ignoring it again. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 13:43, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Bias - place names - section break

@MV - you suggested include the word "bias" . @Soda - thanks for saying that three people are from India. I don't know who they are, you are one - ok. For the record, "anti-Indian" within this thread is your words. I posed a question and it got answered a little bit. The bias maybe does not come from outside. We have now clear out, that you, from Tamil Nadu have no problem with " , Tamil Nadu" as the default. But you write "it should depend on the repetition of place names and the necessity for disambig" - well, if disambiguation is needed for places in India it is mostly because they are ambiguous within India. This is different to the Anglo-sphere countries Canada, US, UK, NZ, Australia. Due to my initiative it was already agreed that ", India" does not help a lot and that we would use at least the state level. The next thing I observed is that place names if they conflict most often conflict within states. So the thing is that ", statename" is of no big help either. You simply say it is not - well, this is not very constructive. You also say "I have even provided you with names of other editors who are experienced in geographical articles and can provide more input." - But they did not. And I think they did not spend so much time on cities, towns and villages as I did the last days. And it was not them that created the 204 SIA pages collected at Category:Set indices on populated places in India. Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 13:33, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

The first use of "anti-India" came from you in this discussion- here. You started going down the anti-india/pro-india road. You posed a question and it got answered a bit. You didnt like it and you posted again here with a title, "Bias by authors from outside India?". How do you think this looks like after you have been asked not to use terms like "anti-india"/"pro-india" while initiating discussions? MV specifically told you in the diff above "vague accusations are just going to raise ire", which exactly happened here. If you disagree with my opinion, say it in the talk page, dont come here and post again with a title "Bias by authors from outside India?". As you state, you have no idea, where editors are from and when an editor disagrees with you it is not bias - it is just a difference of opinion. Automatically assuming people who disagree with you a) are from outside india or b) biased is not the way to behave in wikipedia.--Sodabottle (talk) 13:47, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps Bogdan Nagachop you mean that India articles aren't handled properly, which this noticeboard is about. Eg. Land acquisition 2011 (the like), eg. Kurmi, Ganga, India, Vithoba, Khandoba. If that is what you mean I agree with you.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 13:54, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Your menu of articles is getting ever longer, Yogesh, and you appear not to be getting what you desire at many of them. Are you suffering from indigestion? Perhaps there is a legitimate reason why your POV is not being accepted, and that reason is consensus. Before you start, I am well aware of systemic bias, but I have already given you a pointer regarding what you need to do, and that is not to drone on here yet again. Draw up some proposals and put them to the entire community, since consensus etc are community-wide policies. If you object to Fowler or Soda or Boing or me (add to this list, as appropriate) then take each or all of those people to ANI. I wish you well. - Sitush (talk) 14:25, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

@YK I don't know about Kurmi and Ganges. @All Currently I am talking about disambiguation. I had no other explanation than that people may come from outside India. The thing is that people who actually created articles sometimes used the taluka. The "anti" thing was solved and was between me and rgpk - this is done and was gone. @Soda, you bring it back. Using "Bias" is simply one assumption, I didn't say there is one, I marked it as a question. If asking questions regarding "bias" is not allowed in your world, then yours is different to mine. It's not about only that I didn't like something, but I also provided more data. You ignored the data so far. Maybe this is a bias because you are from Tamil Nadu or have not much knowledge about place names in India - I don't know. Maybe in Tamil Nadu there are less naming conflicts. What is bad with the word "bias"? But back to the issue at hand, I want to improve the naming of the articles on geography of India. Here are facts:

• Misplaced Pages talk:Naming conventions (India)#Census 2001 ambiguous names starting with Am - if names are ambiguous there are clusters by state, thus at least district naming is needed.
• Misplaced Pages talk:Naming conventions (India)#Disambiguation by state or district compared with dab in other countries - why not use a system that is similar in precision to the UK, France and the Philippines? Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 15:15, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Ok Bogdan, lets drop this here. The word "bias" has a pretty bad rep in wikipedia - so my request to you is please dont use it in generic terms in the future. I admit, my experience with TN place names is what is guiding my responses to the discussion and it is certainly not sufficient to extropolate to whole of india. (its the reason why i just commented in the discussion instead of voting). I will try to get people more knowledgeable than me in geographical issues, involved in this discussion. I do hope we evolve a uniform disambig standard. All the best with your work.--Sodabottle (talk) 15:32, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Great, thank you. I am currently writing at User talk:Dr. Blofeld. Hope we find a good solution. We also need to define what to do if a name is ambiguous within a district. With clear rules and enforcing them one can easier find duplicate articles. Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 15:47, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Ya I now get it, so you changed Pen, India to Pen, Maharshtra. Why ambiguate unless there are multiple places. (1)If a name is unique, there should be nothing tagging it. (2)If there are two places of the same name internationally then the country's name should be used to disambiguate, and so on??? I am asking.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 17:14, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Welcome to the geography party :-). 1) If the name is unique then there will be no tagging - that is the current system and it is the proposed district system. So we agree. 2) One could also ask why using the country name, why not "X, Asia" if it is unique within Asia? Or maybe Southern hemisphere if it is unique there "Córdoba, Southern hemisphere". And then someone comes around and says: There is another one in the south! And people have to go to hundreds of articles and to change the references because it is not clear anymore why is meant by "Córdoba, Southern hemisphere". At the same time those in the Northern hemisphere have already been called "Córdoba, Spain" or "Córdoba, Veracruz". If one chooses to walk on different levels a lot of errors can happen: People create "X, Gujarat" because they think it is the only in Gujarat. Another one that knows there is ambiguity creates "X, Rajkot". A third one creates "X (Morbi)" which refers to the same as the one before. Since Indian authors that don't know all names and locations of all Indian villages, don't know whether "X, Gujarat" could potentially be a mistake or be ambiguous they would not correct it if they see it in other articles. On the contrary if it would be the agreement to never use the state, everyone seeing X, Gujarat in some article could have a look and make the link more precise and maybe unambiguous. We would vastly improve the reliability of the references. This Template:Settlements in Bagalkot district is currently linking to Korti (Sudan!). Shall I change the link to "X, India", "X, Karnataka" or "X, Bagalkot"? Maybe the first one changes to India, then later someone changes to Karnataka and then someone finds ambiguity and changes to Bagalkot. And every time links of related articles need to be disambiguated. And now look at the French or the UK/Irish system: They use the department or the county right from the start in case the term is not unique. UK never uses "X, United Kingdom", in general they also do not use "X, England". This is defined at WP NC UK. Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 22:28, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Bogdan Nagachop, I am all questions. A real green thumb on this subject. Well you moved Pen, India to Pen, Maharashtra, see Khopoli, doesn't have a suffix, as it seems to be unique. If we turn the whole thing 180 degrees. We can do town, taluka, but the problem is that many a times the taluka name and the town name is the same, some times the district name and the town name is also the same. How about postal code, looks ackward, but that is precise Pen (402107)???Yogesh Khandke (talk) 16:19, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Great you like it. Currently I would not try to use taluka, since I have not seen any complete listing yet. For districts there is one and the names for 630 of the 640 are unique, so with converting to districts we do not cause many extra problems, it is mostly a straight forward process. Maybe the district headquarters if they have the same name as the district can go on using the state, that would mean at maximum 640 would use the state name for dab. But the rest can use mostly the district name. I created two new pages: Sub-districts of India and Permanent Location Code Number (PLCN). Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 11:15, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Move Req Tirthankar

Talk:Tirthankar#Requested move -> has not seen any traffic. So please weigh in. Arjun 08:15, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

IRC channel for WP:INDIA?

Does WP:INDIA have an IRC channel? WP:MILHIST does, and I think WP:INDIA would benefit from one too. It would provide more fluidity to discussions.  Office of Disinformation  12:36, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

To the best of my knowledge, WP India doesn't have a channel, but WMI (Wikimedia India chapter) does have one. See m:IRC/Channels. I think we should have a separate channel for WP India, in case such a channel does not exist already. Lynch7 13:43, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

I have set up #wikipedia-en-india per the format set down by WP:MILHIST. Feel free to use it as needed. I will join in a few hours.  Office of Disinformation  13:55, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Bias with respect to India-related topics

Someone above suggested I should contact an editor who, as that someone claimed, knows more about geographic topics. (Not exactly the wording but something like that.) I did contact that person. There is bias. To say that a county like West Sussex having 781,600 inhabitants and 1,991 km2 is equivalent to the average Indian state having 43,221,071 inhabitants (factor 55) and 117,402 km2 (factor 60) and explicitly not to the average Indian district having 1,890,922 inhabitants (factor 2.4) 5,136 km2 (factor 2.6) /is/ bias as far as I understand. Give me a better term if you have one. 2.5 West Sussex would make up a district. So this county is not even half of what a district is and of cause it is by no means equivalent in power to the average Indian state.

So what are we going to do, I simply do not understand why articles on Indian geography shall use a more complicated system than the UK, Ireland and France. The article quality is going to suffer from this. The district system is a well established one, districts exists in all Indian states. Even with districts the precision is less than with the UK counties. So one could also look whether to use tehsils/taluks/talukas/mandals or equivalent. But this is less unique and I am not aware how many of these units are named ambiguously itself. Please anyone opposing the district system for disambiguation explain why India shall have a more complicated setup. Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 21:52, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Bogdan (and again my comments about keeping this in one section and not using inflammatory language remain), I agree that it can be read several ways, but Assuming Good Faith here it is my impression that Blofeld is not saying "West Sussex is a more important place than an Indian district", he is pointing out that administratively "county" in England is the immediate echelon below "country", and not a sub-sub echelon, so in terms of administrative tiers, "county" in England is equivalent to "state" in India. I don't at all believe he's saying "a small number of British people in a county are more important that a larger number of Indian people in a district." By all means, you can let him know that you're concerned about his phrasing and want to make sure that he isn't giving a value judgement here, but I would feel comfortable betting he's speaking of what levels of organisation each falls into. MatthewVanitas (talk) 23:15, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

MV is correct in his interpretation. County is the next regional/admin level down from country in the UK (& Ireland, though I'm not 100% sure of the situation in France). I am not sure why there is yet more ranting about bias but it is starting to look like someone might have some civility issues. - Sitush (talk) 23:19, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Civility issues because I point out the bias? Ever thought about the fact that England is a constituent country of the United Kingdom? And you tell me the county(level 3 in UK) is the same tier as a state (level 2 in India)? And ever heard about the European Union? In some regards the UK itself is like a state of the Republic of India. And are we talking about disambiguation are government levels? This IS bias. I myself would never say the states of India are equivalent to the counties. And for the record, disambiguation in the UK is done by ceremonial county. @MV, this has nothing at all to do with good or bad faith. I don't say Blofeld has bad faith. But he is just wrong with his statement. In terms of population, of territory and even the tiers you read into his statement - it's wrong. @Sitush, you may like to read Regions of France. Please stay with the facts. Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 23:56, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes, because you keep using that word without an awful lot of support from what I can see. Saying that you are AGF but using the word "bias" does have the appearance of being a contradiction. I said next "regional/admin level": some counties are admin districts, but others are more awkward (eg: Greater Manchester County or Bath & Avon) and for this reason it probably makes sense to use the ceremonial counties, which applied throughout England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland and are even now referred to by many in preference to "GMC" or "B&A" etc. You are clutching even more at straws when you refer to the EU. I am well aware of the ceremonial county situation: one has to draw a line somewhere in time & the same would apply to India: it has areas whose name or boundaries have changed over time, so you will have to pick a point. Frankly, I don't care less how it is done as long as it is consistent: I hope that you have a bot ready to run if you change things because you are likely to need it. As all 800,000+ villages of India come on line over the next few years time, WMF is going to need even more donations to expand/support its hardware, and you'll need a bot even then to keep on top of it all! - Sitush (talk) 00:33, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Ah! It might make it easier if I point out that a letter sent from abroad to, say, an address in Reading, Berkshire will get there without any issue if after the word "Berkshire" (the county) it says "England"/"UK"/"GB": there is no other Berkshire and Berkshire is the level immediately below the top tier for the British Isles. However, if you omitted the "Berkshire" then you might have a problem, depending on whether or not you used a postcode/zipcode. On the other hand, there are places that share the same name within counties, Lincolnshire being absolutely chock-full of them, & so you then need to start saying "X, near to Y, Lincolnshire" etc. - Sitush (talk) 00:37, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for your explanations. I really do not think bias (cognitive bias) and AGF are related. WP:BIAS does not make a relation. I think it is just lag of awareness, it is nothing that is done consciously on purpose. Yes, if all villages go online they would make up a considerable portions of articles in en-WP ;-). And it will be hard to control them for accuracy. I have seen village codes in Census India, I assume it would be good to have that in every village's infobox. Regarding the Reading, Berkshire example, something similar would apply to a lot of places in India, if one uses the district for Indian locations like one uses the ceremonial county for England locations. I give an example where it fails at the end. Regarding drawing a line in time, this is difficult for India, district boundaries keep changing, but the same is true on a lower rate for the states. Regarding what local people may use, here is one observation: I have seen that articles on Indian villages have been created with the taluka as dab, without any ambiguous article in WP yet. And here the announced example: 200 places share the name Dharampur, India. Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 15:01, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

I would venture to guess that everyone is totally fine with "here are many ambiguous place names which need addressing." We're just concerned about any implications that India is being treated as "inferior", that there's some concious or unconcious diminishing of India by how its articles are being filed. By "lag of awareness", what do you mean exactly? Lack of awareness for how many similar/same Indian place-names need to be DAB'ed? Or some general lack of awareness of India? I maybe need to go look at the actual discussions more, but in all honesty I'm baffled as to how issues of systemic bias and discrimination could be plausibly interfering with a geo-DAB discussion. It's not like anyone wants people to have a harder time filing India articles. My suggestion: I would really avoid the "Germany uses X system, is India less important than Germany?!?!?!" and instead use angles like "Germany has some really clear DABs using X system, I think that would work great for India too, how about we use that?" MatthewVanitas (talk) 16:46, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Lack of awareness how big India is, lack of awareness how many places have the same name and lack of awareness how much trouble this causes in editing. I agree, it is a nice approach to say "Country A has a clear system, I think that would work for India too". I think we are now four or five editors talking about it. Just think about the potential: 600 000 villages. Whole WP has 3 700 000 articles. Census India 2011 will soon give new data for all these entities. We really need a good roadmap. Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 20:46, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Fair enough, I would argue that stats are your friend. Your lists of towns sharing the same name are quite illuminating, so if you can stick to things like that and avoid raising hackles by impling people are calling India inferior, your path should be easier. If you seriously believe there is some orientalist bias keeping us from filing India articles properly, that would be quite a huge allegation requiring extensive examples, and before you would get anywhere near that point I'd imagine you would need quite a few WPINDIA and NPOVN posts on "Hey guys, I'm concerned that people might be discounting Indian issues due to.... and here are some examples... what do people think?" rather than leap to "I have uncovered a nest of dark and evil bias conspiring against a subcontinent." Any systemic biases aren't going to be fixed overnight, and certainly aren't going to be fixed by drawing daggers, so I would focus on the very dry nitty-gritty of "we have a country that needs a lot of disambigs, how to go about it?" MatthewVanitas (talk) 21:04, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

You would make a good PR officer ;-). It might be helpful for the plan to convince you. The idea is that it would be good for the articles on Indian geography and all articles having references to such articles, to use an article titling system for place names that results in fewer ambiguous names. "Ambiguous names" includes all villages of India, because we do not know what village article might be created next by some editor. It is desired that the creation of new village articles does not involve moving of existing articles due to the fact that they resided under ambiguous names. Additionally "fewer ambiguous names" refers to the fact that completely new villages can be created as is mentioned in circulars related to Census India 2011, so this is a real world case. In these cases ambiguity in article titles cannot be avoided completely, but the probability can be reduced with little cost, by using the district or sub-district level as disambiguator in those cases where disambiguation is needed anyway. Little cost means, that an often unwanted disambiguation tag is needed anyway, and just the choice of it is made in such a way as to reduce the likelihood of future ambiguity. That means there is no mandatory disambiguation tag in cases where there is no known same named locality. As of now, I would only recommend to use at least the district for disambiguation, since the names for 630 of the 640 districts are unique within in India. This would be similar to the system for England that uses ceremonial counties. Exceptions would be made to locations that are named like the district, which is similar to Argentine province capitals and Mexican state capitals. Since there still is a lot of ambiguity on the district level, it may be even better to use the sub-district level, but I couldn't find any complete list for the sub-districts of India and therefore don't know how many names are ambiguous there. Using the sub-district level would be similar to the system that is used for the articles in the Philippines, which use the municipalities. Also, for some existing articles it might be unknown in what sub-district they are located. What else can I do to advance with this idea? Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 23:48, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

"Around" categories

I wish to bring your notice to the various "around" categories created for Hindu temples. Some of them are:

• Category:Temples around Trichy
• Category:Temples around Madurai
• Category:Temples around Kanchipuram
• Category:Temples around Tanjore
• Category:Temples around Thanjavur, Kumbakonam

Now, should we let these ambiguous templates remain here or should we tag them for deletion. Now, X from Chennai might feel that Kumbakonam is somewhere "around" Thanjavur, while Y from Bangalore might feel that Tiruchirappalli is somewhere "around" Thanjavur and Z from Delhi might have the notion that Thanjavur is situated somewhere "around" Chennai. I feel that these categories could very well be removed, instead, temples could be classified on basis of the districts in which they are situated.-The Enforcer_{Office of the secret service} 07:03, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

I've created one for Hindu temples in Thanjavur district. Your opinions solicited.-The Enforcer_{Office of the secret service}

Agree with you, it is currently too vague. Lynch7 07:40, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Ravi, you can do a speedy rename (C2) from Category:Temples around XYZ to Category:Temples in XYZ district (if the same, or abc district if different). That will be simpler as you don't have to repopulate new categories and delete old ones. Might have to remove a couple here and there, but it's an easier process to track. —SpacemanSpiff 07:47, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Will we have a long listing of temples in a certain district? I mean won't temples in a certain state be sufficient? A category for 10-20 items is bit unnecesaary. For South Indian districts you might get enough numbers. But then when you look in an article of a temple in Maharashtra or MP & dont find any districtwise categories at all, it looks odd. Hence... wont statewise listing be sufficient? -Animeshkulkarni (talk) 10:01, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

It depends. See Category:Hindu temples in India, from that I can see that the Kerala category ought to be split soon. Also, within Maharashtra, without looking at the individual pages but just looking at the category list (and there could be more) creating a subcat of Category:Hindu temples in Mumbai seems reasonable. We don't need to wait for 10+ articles, if there are a few significant temples, it's best to split them off to a subcat under the tree and add more as they are created. The utility value of a category is lost when you have too many entries within. —SpacemanSpiff 10:32, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Support removing "around" categories as too vague. My only hesitation would be: is there any legitimate organisational relationship between these? That is, is Madurai some kind of ecclesiastical seat and those temples "around Madurai" are part of its jurisdiction? Even if that is the case, such would need to be documented and better phrased by whatever the equivalent of "parish" would be in this context. Failing a category scheme which reflects a formal temple organisational system, I'd say by-district, and even if there is a formal parish scheme, there should also be a parallel by-district tree anyway to address them geographically. MatthewVanitas (talk) 14:21, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes, by district please for geographic organization. Side note: people were so strongly opposing using ", DistrictName" if disambiguation is needed anyway, I now wonder what is up with Kalyanasundaresar Temple, Nallur, Mahalingeswarar Temple, Thiruvidaimarudur, Veetrirundha Perumal Temple, Veppathur none of these have any content at the plain name. I would vote for dropping the district name in these cases. Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 15:11, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

I've created temple articles like that for disambiguation purposes. I guess there are plenty of notable Mahalingeswara Temples, Perumal Temples, etc., in India. Therefore for identification purposes, such sort of naming is needed.-The Enforcer_{Office of the secret service} 04:19, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

By the way, those are all town names not district names.-The Enforcer_{Office of the secret service} 04:21, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Thank you. Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 20:06, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Tributes

Are tributes allowed in wikipedia pages? for example U. Srinivas Mallya

-djds4rce

You can mention tributes made by others, but you cannot give tributes of your own.-The Enforcer_{Office of the secret service} 12:40, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

That is fine, if he has statues as in this case, or streets named after him or if he appears on a postage stamp etc. etc. the section is sometimes called Honours or Legacy. Refs are always nice, though (Crusoe8181 (talk) 03:49, 26 July 2011 (UTC)).

The article seems to be edited now, initially it had a tribute section which had experts from various news papers. (djds4rce djds4rce) —Preceding undated comment added 09:13, 26 July 2011 (UTC).

Invite to WikiConference India 2011

Please stop

SpacemanSpiff brought up the following at my talk:

"Please stop" your page moves citing WP:NCINDIA. Most people have opposed your version of things and now moving articles randomly citing an unaccepted proposal as guideline is not on. Please establish consensus first and then do what consensus dictates. —SpacemanSpiff 13:50, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

• I moved article from "X, something district" to "X, something", that was opposed nowhere. Also my citation are not randomly. You did not engage in the discussion, please cite opposition. Also I did disambiguate titles. I was /not/ moving "X, state" to "X, district" in cases where "X, state" is not ambiguous. So, what is the problem? Do you want to hold even these little improvement? Have you seen how much I contributed by creating the SIA pages? The new sub-districts of India overview? What are you doing in that respet apart from opposing. What is the problem with the work I am doing. Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 13:57, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
• I was about to fix this: Attoor (Kanya Kumari). But well, I will stop now. Please describe your problem in more detail. And hey, I won't do what so called "consensus" dictates. This is voluntary work done by me. If the "consensus" is to do something I would not like to support, I would just leave. Thank you for listening Mr. Dictator. Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 14:01, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
• Also, I don't see how "most people have opposed" "my" "version of things". It were only two that showed up and opposed using the district as minimum. But they dropped out of the discussion afterwards. And one complete outsider opposed, but he seems to have a lack of awareness of the issue, and equates UK ceremonial counties with Indian states. Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 14:06, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

No knowledge of the detail, but Misplaced Pages is a community and relies on consensus. Put simply, if you cannot deal with that basis then leaving may well be the solution. I hope that it does not come to that, however. - Sitush (talk) 14:04, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

WP is also voluntary, and I don't like that a user comes and says I have to do what is dictated by a specific consensus. Anyway, maybe SpacemanSpiff can provide details of what moves were done against consensus. Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 14:08, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Well, if you don't like that you need consensus when you want your proposals to be accepted as guidelines then you'll need to create another voluntary encyclopedia, guidelines here will have to be accepted by the community. What you did now is to move articles from "xyz, abc district" to "xyz, abc" where abc is a big town. You have now introduced ambiguity in hitherto clean titles by removing the "district" from them because now the title can be confused for either a part of a city/town or part of district. Kurnool, Nizamabad etc are not small towns and the fact that a sub-region can be either a neighbourhood of the city or a village/town in the district matters a lot. This is what happens if you keep on going with these page moves without taking any feedback into account. First it was Hyderabad, Rameswaram etc, now this. —SpacemanSpiff 15:26, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

You are putting things in my mouth that I did not say. I didn't say I don't like that I need consensus. Also I like feedback, Rameswaram maybe was a mistake. Why Hyderabad, Andhra Pradesh is the only Indian city to use ", India" and furthermore this name beeing ambiguous I still do not understand. For the removal of the "district" part I agree with you. I will stop moving "xyz, abc district" to "xyz, abc". But I have to notice that this is the first time someone opposed to this and brought up facts. Crusoe8181 agreed with not using "...district" and also this is what was done in many or most places anyway. I will stop this, but additionally I would like to see some real world examples where this is a problem. Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 16:07, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm not putting words in your mouth, you said "WP is also voluntary, and I don't like that a user comes and says I have to do what is dictated by a specific consensus", there isn't really any two ways about that. And in my first post to you, I requested that you wait for feedback before implementing your changes, but no, instead of actually waiting for feedback you came here alleging that everyone is biased against India and just indulged in personal attacks. I have just told you how it becomes a problem with Kurnool etc where when someone sees a title they can not say if it's a city neighbourhood or a village in a district. —SpacemanSpiff 16:19, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

I don't have to do what "consensus" dictates. WP is voluntary. And for Kurnool, I meant, is there actually any naming conflict? Is there any neighbourhood that is named like a village in Kurnool district? Other article titles that use the plain name do not tell either whether they are a neighbourhood, a village, a town etc. One wouldn't even know it is about a place at all. And what would happen if a neighbourhood is disambiguated by mandal - you wouldn't know whether it is a village in that mandal. But I repeat, I agree to hold on with removing "district". There is a lot of other things that can be done before that. As for not waiting for feedback, I asked for feedback, and only when I saw that people opposed a more clear cut system I said some things that I as of today would not like to repeat. This is gone. And please: Thank you for pointing this district-removal thing out to me. I am happy to learn. Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 16:37, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Any non-OR way to categorise "rediscovered" Rajputs?

I've run across several articles, with Mahyavanshi being a good example, on Indian groups that were for a period not at all considered to be Rajput, and then sometime during the Raj did some research (I'm trying to be NPOV here and not say "research"), found out that they were actually Rajput, and agitated politically for such with varying degrees of success. I would argue that this trend of Rajput re-discovery, like Kshatriya agitation, Sanskritisation overall, etc. is quite fascinating and notable, but is there any way we can actually have a category to contain such groups? Failing that, is there a good term for "Rajput rediscovery" that we can do a basic article on, and in that article list such groups? I also don't know if the people covering Rajput topics are annoyed that all these claimant groups are simply placed in Category:Rajputs currently. Any thoughts on how to best organise this material to reflect the above? MatthewVanitas (talk) 14:34, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

That's not a good idea at all. Such amusement would not be of any worth on Misplaced Pages. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 15:04, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Maybe at first the category could be cleaned up. Category:Rajputs contains things such as clans, a battle, a surname article, individual person articles ... At least Mahyavanshi should be moved into the clans category? Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 15:14, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Good call Bogdan; Rajput issues in general need some cleanup, and some cat sorting would help that. @ TT2011: I don't understand your point; how is it an "amusement" to attempt to differentiate between historical Rajput castes and re-discovered ones? It seems indicative of the complexities and fluidity of caste history. Please actually bring a talking point rather than just an unexplained opinion, or you'll simply be ignored. MatthewVanitas (talk) 15:17, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

As mentioned earlier:

"while varna was generally accepted as the basis for identity, on the whole little agreement prevailed with respect to the place of the individual and the jati within a varna hierarchy. Srinivas, describing social relations in the mid-twentieth century, regarded such a “lack of clarity in the hierarchy” as “one of the most striking features of the caste system,” adding that “it is this ambiguity which makes it possible for a caste to rise in the hierarchy.” Such ambiguity only becomes a striking feature, however, when observers expect to see the opposite, that is, a complete congruity between theory (varna) and practice (jati). Such expectations were increasingly palpable in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, when India became for nascent (imperial) anthropology a “laboratory of mankind,” wherein scientific methods of observation (anthropometry among them) were expected to produce clear and straightforward sociological (and racial) patterns that conformed to varna-derived theories."

..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 18:01, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Is there something like Rajputism? What would be the top category? Because to have Rajputs and inside Rajput people and Rajput clans looks weird to me. Since I assume a Rajput to be a person. Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 20:13, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

"Rajput people" is the cat for individual persons, "Rajput clans" is for groups/tribes. Admittedly its not explicit without context, but if you look at similar cats (for example Category:Pashtuns) you'll see the same thing. There's not any objection against having "category for individual Rajputs" and "category for broad group of Rajputs", no? Overall, are you feeling good about the cleanu of Rajput I did (sub-cat'ed about 100 articles) and the several new subcategories (culture, history, titles, etc)? I think this is a step in the right direction, though Category:Rajput clans is going to take a lot of cleanup, but that will require having a clear methodology for what goes into what subcats, how deep to file, etc.

@TT2011, yes, seen you post that quote before, and it raises good points. However, that should not be an excuse to remove varna from articles, and should positively not be an excuse to say "let's remove Shudra and keep Kshatriya" as so many folks do. That quote should just be more proof that these are complicated issues which deserve exploration in caste articles. MatthewVanitas (talk) 20:39, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

@MV, There was consensus on this board a couple of years back to not categorize people by castes, i.e. no XXX caste people categories. That consensus was subsequently used to delete a few such categories that existed. —SpacemanSpiff 20:56, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Fair enough, but Category:Rajput people is still there and has been since late 2009. If WPINDIA has a consensus, so be it, but my concern is that lacking such a cat, the freshly-cleaned Category:Rajput is going to have dozens and dozens of bio articles dumped into it. Is there any alternative scheme to replace the deleted cats, like Category:People in the history of Rajashtan? I realise "People in the history of Foo" is a bit unwieldy, but it seems the best way to prevent, say, Category:History of India from becoming 90% biographies. MatthewVanitas (talk) 21:15, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Category:Rajasthani people exists, likewise similar cats exist for other regions. The consensus was only against the caste-people intersection. If you are looking at historical people, then they could be filed under relevant titular categories (I believe there are Kings/rulers cats and so on). —SpacemanSpiff 21:22, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

@MV if you subcate'd 100 articles that's great. No, I explicitly like cats for individuals and those for groups. Only the naming is little confusing since to me mostly Rajputs = Rajput people. Maybe "Individual Rajputs"? All in all I have not much interest in that area, just saw it on the NB and wanted to give some feedback. No idea why not having them in subcats. Hoppla! Now I look at Category:Rajputs - this is real clean now. Much more inviting to read! Thumbs up! Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 01:15, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

No problem, also did the same today for Category:Brahmins, which had about 80 cats before, almost all of which belonged in Category:Brahmin communities. MatthewVanitas (talk) 19:55, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

MatthewVanitas, I personally feel that the categories Brahmins and Brahmin communities are not needed at all. Such categories, shall, surely be used for POV-pushing and propaganda. For example, there are some communities which some don't considered "Brahmin" by all, Vishwakarma Brahmins, for example. And then, we never use varna-based categorization in Misplaced Pages.-The Enforcer_{Office of the secret service} 07:44, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

You raise some interesting points, and I am actually not fond of Category:Kshatriya or Category:Shudra as those two are pretty complicated issues. For Brahmins, however, all things being relative, there seems to be a lot more clarity on who is, or at least claims to be with some success, Brahmin. So far as folks who claim to be but aren't universally accepted as such, that's pretty much the same problem as I address with the Rajputs in this section. So far as never using varna cats on Misplaced Pages, I was informed yesterday that there was some consensus at one point not to file people by jati (no Category:Swarankar people for bios), and I'm fine extending that to varnas so as to now have cats for individual biographies of people of specific varnas/jatis. But I do think that Brahmin is a clearer case than the other varnas, and that the nuances of status debates don't outweigh the benefit of grouping these indidividual communities together vice spreading them all back into Category:Indian castes. Overall, I'm making some attempt to, where possible, sub-categories Category:Indian castes with new cats such as Category:Ahir and Category:Dhangar, but I'm totally open to debate on those too, since these "organisational trees" of caste are quite convoluted. MatthewVanitas (talk) 14:08, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Athani (Kerala) - which district?

• Athani (Kerala) - which district is this, page mentions two different ones. Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 15:59, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

• How to name: Kanam (Kerala) 171K called small place and village VS Kanam 3.4K marked as village AND town. Both in Kottayam district. Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 16:40, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

• Bhatkal, Karnataka, India, I tried to remove ", India" but got reverted. Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 18:02, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

The first case was just an IP changing the info incorrectly, just see the history. Second you could check the district website. Third I've moved the page back to where you moved it to and left a note for the user who's been moving it. —SpacemanSpiff 21:07, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks a lot! Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 01:03, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

On going accusations by SpacemanSpiff

On my talk: "Page moves" ... This is the last time I'm going to ask you to stop moving pages incorrecfly claiming consensus or under the cover of a guideline that doesn't exist. —SpacemanSpiff 06:36, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

What do you refer to? The last time you didn'T provide details but left me in the dark, after asking you, you said it was about "Abc, def district" -> "Abc, def", which actually was agreed on. But nevertheless I stopped doing these moves. This time, what are you talking about??? Please if you accuse me of having done something wrong, then tell where and what!!! After the last talk about that:

1. where did I incorrectly claim consensus
2. where did I refer to a guideline that doesn't exist? Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 10:03, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

You have to stop running here crying fowl every time something you don't like happens, this is getting quite tiresome and disruptive. You have been told multiple times, specifically about Hyderabad, India, yet you moved it claiming consensus (again), and you move citing WP:NCINDIA and you plaster that page with the {{guideline}} tag when looking at the talk page there really is no acceptance of it as a guideline or any such thing. If you really can not work with other people and must have your way at all cost and find feedback abhorrent and hold the opinion "I don't have to do what "consensus" dictates.", then you really need to stop volunteering to do such things. —SpacemanSpiff 10:41, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

You are putting words in my mouth, this is tiresome. I did not cry foul. I just assumed your vague accusations were related to WP India and so I posted it here so that other people see what accusations you bring up and maybe can mediate.

1. "You have been told multiple times" - What have I been told multiple times?
2. "specifically about Hyderabad, India" - Give me the multiple diffs please!!
3. "yet you moved it claiming consensus" - actually I provided the diff for that consensus, so it is up to you why that does not hold!!!
4. "(again)" - where did I claim consensus "again"?
5. "and you move citing WP:NCINDIA" - where did I do that since the last talk on that NB? Please provide diff!!!
6. "you plaster that page with the {{guideline}} tag when looking at the talk page there really is no acceptance of it as a guideline" - Sorry, there was no opposition either. I only documented what the current usage is. The conventional usage. And this thing is called Naming convention (India) isn't it? And you reverted my anyway, WP:BRD, and I left that. So what is the ongoing problem here?
7. "If you really can not work with other people" - what is that? What are you talking? I am working with other people. Seems you don't like some of my work, but that does not mean I cannot work with other people.
8. "and must have your way at all cost" - What do you mean by all cost?
9. "find feedback abhorrent" - You mean my one of these: Also I like feedback OR Thank you for pointing this district-removal thing out to me. I am happy to learn. OR Thanks a lot! ?
10. "and hold the opinion "I don't have to do what "consensus" dictates.", then you really need to stop volunteering to do such things." - which such things? You want me to stop to work on Misplaced Pages, because you disagreed with some actions??? Who are you that you think you can dictate what happens here? I think you are not the owner of Misplaced Pages, are you? As I understand, this is a community afford. I tell you again that I regard WP as voluntary, and I never have to work on it. I don't know what is so hard to understand with that? If consensus dictates to put red banners in all pages, I would rather leave than to do what consensus dictates. You understand? I don't have to do what consensus dictates. Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 11:12, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Given that you yourself have asked about Hyderabad multiple times in response to statements, there's no reason for me to explain anything any further, as such that page is no guideline and the talk page is proof of that at this point. Your moves are becoming disruptive and you'll need to stop until you establish consensus, simple as that. And yes, you don't have to work on it, but when you do, you have to follow rules and guidelines, this is not a free for all and if you can not respect the need for consensus, this place is not for you. My last response to you on this matter. I've had enough with your accusations and attacks on this page and elsewhere. —SpacemanSpiff 11:18, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Again vague accusations, which moves? You have not replied to the 10 question above. So what kind of discussion is that? Do you see that you are attacking my contributions vaguely? What can I learn for my editing from vague accusations? What is this Hyderabad thing? There was consensus to not use the country level for India. You are ignoring that. Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 11:46, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Started talk at Talk:Hyderabad,_India#Hyderabad.2C_Andhra_Pradesh_and_WP:BIAS. No need for drama, shouting and vague accusations. Simply stick to the facts. Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 12:12, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

===Accusations by Crusoe8181===Doctored talk And we can stop arguing and get on with our work; the recent move of Brest, France requires 2083 (repeat, two thousand and eighty-three) links to be corrected- You understand? I don't have to do what consensus dictates is a lovely attitude (I always consider I am bound by consensus) but the idea of leaving just these 2083 links to someone else to sort out (when consensus is that we tidy up after moves) is not particularly helpful to the project. I would rather leave than to do what consensus dictates. Well, what is keeping you? Perhaps, when there is consensus to suggest you go away that would presumably encourage you to stay, and cost us more time and inconvenience. (Crusoe8181 (talk) 11:31, 27 July 2011 (UTC)).

I made the article name conforming to WP:MOS I do not see on Misplaced Pages:MOVE that there is consensus that one has to change all links. And why do they need to be corrected? There is redirect. What else are redirects for? And if someone really wants a change then I wonder are there no bots? And for the other topic: to be bound by consensus is different from having to do what consensus dictates. Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 11:46, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

::I DID NOT PUT MY EDIT UNDER THE HEADING IT HAS BEEN GIVEN - PLEASE DIG VERY DEEP AND FIND THE MOST MINIMAL COURTESY YOU CAN MUSTER AND MOVE MY BLOODY COMMENTS BACK TO WHERE I PUT THEM!!!!!!!!!!!! (Crusoe8181 (talk) 11:56, 27 July 2011 (UTC)). rather be editing, wasted a bit more time fixing (Crusoe8181 (talk) 12:33, 27 July 2011 (UTC)).

If you do less errors like at on 01:57, 7 May 2010 Crusoe8181 "moved Banga, Punjab (India) to Banga, Punjab: sufficient dab" when Banga, Punjab is not sufficient - you would have even more time. Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 14:28, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Hyderabad, Andhra Pradesh and WP:BIAS

Started talk at Talk:Hyderabad,_India#Hyderabad.2C_Andhra_Pradesh_and_WP:BIAS. Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 12:02, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

• You see at that page: "most people reading wont know what Andhra Pradesh is". This is given as reason why Hyderabad, Andhra Pradesh shall be placed at Hyderabad, India. But people now what Rhode Island in Warren, Rhode Island is??? Is it an island? Where is it? Sounds English, is it in Australia? Part of the United Kingdom? Republic of Ireland? South Africa? Why can Hyderabad not get a more prices location statement. And that way readers that did not know "wut Andhra Pradesh is" could learn, it is an area around Hyderabad. Kind of circular, suppressing the string Andhra Pradesh and then to observe that some people don't know what it is. Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 19:38, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

What can I do to perform better?

What can I do to perform better in the interest of WP India?

Whenever errors were pointed out I tried to correct them and to change my behavior. The recent things I simply do not understand. I acted in good faith and followed consensus.

What else can I do?

Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 16:01, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

From the sounds of the new AN/I thread, it sounds like you've done anything but follow consensus; in fact, a comment was quoted regarding how you blatantly said you are not required to follow consensus. I recommend you head over there and discuss the issue there. CycloneGU (talk) 19:58, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

It sounds so, but I have presented facts, that I followed consensus and it is actually SpacemanSpiff that is moving articles against consensus. Sometimes things are different if you look closer. He did act against consensus. Yes, I think no one needs to follow WP consensus, you always can leave the project. Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 20:53, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Category:Ruling Kurmi Clans, Category:Ruling Hindu clans proposed for deletion/renaming

Link: Misplaced Pages:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2011_July_27#NEW_NOMINATIONS. MatthewVanitas (talk) 17:00, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

I am leaving.

My plan was to greatly improve the quality of the articles related to Indian geography. But if people bring me to WP:ANI and tell false things about me, allegations that I acted against consensus, allegations that I accuse everybody of being biased... I never did these things. I started creating WP:SIA pages, so far I only got 260, the plan was to get to 1000 in the next month. This would have massively helped to avoid ambiguity in links. SpacemanSpiff and Crusoe8181 did win. Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 21:00, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

I appreciate your hard work and the contributions you have made to the project. However, it is necessary that you understand that the functioning of Misplaced Pages is firmly based on consensus. It is essential that you learn to collaborate and work with long-time contributors like User:SpacemanSpiff. Also, while I do agree that there are, indeed, some individuals in Misplaced Pages who are biased, accusing each and every Wikipedian who disputes with you of bias is a violation of WP:AGF and does not look good. People like User:Dr. Blofeld and User:SpacemanSpiff have made extraordinary contributions to Wikiproject India and even created a few good articles.-The Enforcer_{Office of the secret service} 04:37, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Bogdan, You have put in a great amount of work within a short period of time. But you let your enthusiasm let you get ahead of the usual process. Misplaced Pages works by consensus building, it is sometimes slow, frustrating and doesnt go the way we want it to go. In your case multiple people, for some reason or another did not see things as you see (you might have been correct for all i know and we might have been wrong). But you went about convincing us the wrong way right from the start. The pro/anti india comments, accusations of bias, not waiting till the consensus was established etc was pretty bad. You have all the markings of a great contributor if you have the patience to get accustomed to how wiki works. There is no need to leave in a huff, i request you to stick around, slow down your pace and start again. --Sodabottle (talk) 05:25, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

• You both miss that there was consensus. SpacemanSpiff is shouting all over the place that there was not, and now even you seem to believe that. But here is the permalink : rgpk, Crusoe8181 and me agreeing. No opposition there at all. Later, after discussion on this NB, I got a real green thumb even for district dab by User Yogesh Khandke. I got a brownie for the SIA pages. The SIA pages use ", India" thus any article on a specific place using ", India" is not good for the SIA project. The only user opposing dropping country level dab and to use at least state level is SpacemanSpiff. He is the one that acts against consensus when moving Hyderabad, Andhra Pradesh to Hyderabad, India and moving Banga, Shahid Bhagat Singh Nagar to the ambiguous name Banga, India and deleting the SIA article that I had created there.
• @ Soda, the pro/anti-India thing was solved. rgpk made a nice comment, bringing me to light. I cannot change my past darkness.
• @ Enforcer "accusing each and every Wikipedian who disputes with you of bias is a violation of WP:AGF" - I have not done that. Everyone can see in the history of my actions, that there were disputes were I did not. When, I did assume bias, I did that in some very specific situations, where I perceived one. That bias exists is acknowledge by WP:BIAS. And I still think there is some, e.g. "Andhra Pradesh" cannot be used in a dab tag because avg reader would know what that is as User:Nikkul said. But at the same time Rhode Island can be used, I guess the average reader wouldn't know either what that is. An island? BTW, it's not.
• "It is essential that you learn to collaborate and work with long-time contributors like User:SpacemanSpiff." - And wouldn't it be essential that he learns to not act against consensus? I am not asking him to do what consensus dictates as he did with me , i.e. I am not asking him to remove ", India" as was agreed by WP India (the consensus dictates), because I think WP is voluntary and he can do other things. But I ask that in the future he does not move articles in the opposite direction as with Banga and Hyderabad.
• Looking forward: What is your position on the Banga thing, would you appreciate that I open a move request there? Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 13:45, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

THis is exactly the problem of your misinterpretations. Two people agreed with you on the general idea, and then I objected (which you conveniently ignore when you claim consensus) and in the specific example of Hyderabad, there are also objections on the article talk page. That is NOT consensus. And I've been continuously saying, take these to WP:RM to move and not move them unilaterally and that's another thing you refuse to listen to. This is plain ridiculous. And your allegations of bias are there for all to see in every discussion you open, so if you don't mean that people are biased, then don't say it. —SpacemanSpiff 13:50, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

• 4:1 - is majority. I know that majority is not consensus, but in WP the word is used with the meaning that a majority was behind an idea. What is your definition of consensus then?
• "And your allegations of bias are there for all to see in every discussion you open" - I don't see it here: - Either there is some variation in sight between us or in our definition of every. What is your definition of every? Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 14:13, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for again misrepresenting facts once again: It was 3-1 and a continuing discussion, not 4-1 and closed; and it was in general terms, not discussing any specifics of a change to policy and implementing immediately on existing titels. Next, yes, you don't accuse anyone of bias on Russian topics, but it's there for all to see on this board, on Talk:Hyderabad, India etc. So, I'm guessing that you aren't leaving then and that it was just more hyperbole? I'm done responding to you. —SpacemanSpiff 14:18, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Actually, there can be 99 people saying "yes" to something here and 1 saying "no" ... and the one person can have things their way. You need to appreciate that consensus on Misplaced Pages is not a vote. Nobody votes on this project, anywhere in day-to-day stuff. For something to happen it not only needs generally to be favoured but also to comply with policies, guidelines, conventions etc & it is because of this that the "majority" (as you call it) do not always get their way. There are other issues involved also, which makes the entire situation far, far more complex than you think it is. One of the key issues is "are they still talking"? If discussion is ongoing and valid points are being raised then it should usually be allowed to continue until those points are resolved to the satisfaction of everyone.

For what it is worth, I am not too happy with what you were trying to do either. - Sitush (talk) 14:26, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

List articles: hospitals and schools

There are many such lists that read like a directory and contain few blue links. I don't know what to do with them. Suggestions? Anna Frodesiak (talk) 06:59, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Deleting them would be a nice thing. I just came to know from this list that Tamil Nadu has got only 20-30 schools hahahaha :D. Jokes apart,especially poor ones, we need to distinguish schools & hospitals & not only certain ones keeping in view all NPOV policies & all. All schools are graded i guess & then if we have that data, we can display only a certain grade. Similarly with hospitals, maybe specialist hospitals or government hospitals or based on their capacities (if we get the official numbers). Not sure how we will get it. -Animeshkulkarni (talk) 07:14, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

If they're redlinked and uncited then delete, per WP:V and WP:NLIST. - Sitush (talk) 07:23, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I'm not sure about hospitals -- we don't treat them like secondary schools do we? i.e. we don't consider them to be inherently notable per AfD outcomes? As far as schools go, it's not necessarily a bad thing to have them red/unlinked, but some sort of clean up would be good. See List of schools in Chennai, I think it's an OK format for such lists and if we could transition schools to that format, we are at least sure of verifiability (to know what system the school falls under). But given the number of schools, IMO we need to break down the lists to either district or municipality and treat the higher level ones as an index. —SpacemanSpiff 07:27, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Even a school is not inherently notable if its existence cannot be verified. We went through this with 800+ Indian village articles recently, all of which were nuked due to lack of V. - Sitush (talk) 07:30, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Which is why I specifically mentioned verifiability as a consideration above. All I'm saying is that a redlink/unlinked entry on the list can still be verified so it's not bad; but there is the problem that unverified (as opposed to unverifiable) entries do get back on to the list (see list above), but that's the case with everything. —SpacemanSpiff 07:36, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Sitush: I think WP:NLIST is for people. Do you mean WP:NOTDIR?

I want certain consensus before acting. I'm slowly preparing a list here that will include Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, and India list articles for educational and medical organizations.

My position is that this is an encyclopedia and not the Yellow Pages. We don't know if a school or clinic is a tiny hole in the wall, or even exists. Lists with black and red links everywhere encourage others to simply add to the directory. If the articles contain only bluelinks, it will encourage others to create the article in order for it to appear on the list, and not simply add the name to advertise a school that may be defunct in a year.

But, I've had a couple of objections to this sort of pruning. Here's one. The guy makes a point. But check the before and after. It was a right mess. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 07:42, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @SpacemanSpiff. Yes, but someone has to note/remember/tag every redlink for verification, otherwise they stay there for ever + the list grows with new entries. Easier to strip the list down and then maintain it on a strict bluelink or citation basis.

@AnnaF - d'oh. Yes, NOTDIR. Been doing too many lists of notable people recently ;) - Sitush (talk) 07:44, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Like Sitush says, if I prune these lists now, they can be maintained indefinitely. If not, they will, over the years, grow into monsters containing plenty of defunct or renamed organizations. Factchecking black and redlinks for a single list would take hours. There are probably close to a hundred of these lists. We must ask ourselves "What reliable information can I actually glean from the black and red links?" I think we should nip them in the bud. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 08:05, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

By the way, I posted at Wikiproject Pakistan a week ago. No response. I won't bother at the other countries mentioned. This sort of pruning is per policy, and if consensus is formed here, I will proceed. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 08:11, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Best way to avoid such crowding would be to clearly state in the intro of what the list exactly is of, as is NOT stated here. List of schools in India. Going by that intro, we should also include music and dance schools. -Animeshkulkarni (talk) 08:46, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Doesn't work in my experience. Eg; List of Ezhavas gets messed about with several times a week despite a note at the top of the article. - Sitush (talk) 08:49, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm not questioning your right to prune the lists, all I'm saying is that especially with these educational institution lists there are loads of notables listed as black/redlinks and keeping them as redlinks will help in article creation. e.g. From the Hyderabad India list (linked to on the list you provided), Centers & Institutes section:

• Listings that are actually blue but aren't linked -- Administrative Staff College of India, Directorate of Rice Research, Indian Council of Agricultural Research (possibly just a section link now because the Institute article isn't developed)
• Listings that could be blue but aren't -- Central Research Institute for Dryland Agriculture, Central Institute of Medicinal and Aromatic Plants (see gscholar for publications)
• Listings that are likely not notable -- Hyderabad Eye Research Foundation

I haven't gone further down on that list, but of the six I went through there's one problematic and I expect that this pattern will follow with the rest of the listing too. Again, if someone is taking the trouble to clean up these lists when no one else does then they need to be given some leeway but I'm not sure simply culling down the list solves the problem, especially with higher level educational institutions. Note that I'm offering this opinion entirely about lists of educational institutions, not lists of people, hospitals etc. cheers. —SpacemanSpiff 08:54, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Well... lists are important, especially of important things. But a certain specific criteria should be made for these. & that should be uniform for all states, major cities, districts or whichever way we decide on. For example, there is a List of Marathi people as well as List of people from Maharashtra which we are discussing to merge to form only one; preferably a geo-location oriented. Now this particular category might be different from the schools & hospitals that we were discussing; but what i wanna say is that one rule should be followed for all. If there are lists as per cities, all metros should have one such list. If by districts, all disctricts (small or big) should have one list. Uniformity in India portal should be maintined. I guess thats the issue with naming cities too. (I dont wanna enter in that as i cant enter in it at this stage. Do many brawls to go through!) This is also with temples. - Animeshkulkarni (talk) 09:10, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Brawls? We do not get brawls on India-related articles. Ahem. I have raised the general issue for hospitals at Misplaced Pages:Notability/Noticeboard#List_of_hospitals. - Sitush (talk) 09:57, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Naming conventions (India)

FYI Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Naming conventions (India) - Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 14:54, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

• Project-Class India pages
• NA-importance India pages
• Project-Class India articles of NA-importance
• WikiProject India articles