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• WP:AE

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Frederico1234

RolandR

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning RolandR

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

—Biosketch (talk) 19:53, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
— (edit conflict merge) Jaakobou 21:24, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

RolandR (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:ARBPIA#Discretionary_sanctions

Requests by Jaakobou (merged case):

• Ban on twinkle privileges
• Temporary ban from Israel related topics (widely construed)

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. 30 July 2011 – POV-pushing: editor reverts reliably-sourced information added to an article and describes the reverted edit as vandalism
2. 4 August 2011 – POV-pushing: editor attributes to Misplaced Pages's voice a claim made or implied by a fringe website

Additional diffs merged from case request by Jaakobou:

1. 12:23, 30 July 2011 claims, "editor has repeatedly added an unsourced allegation of a conviction for a sexual offence to this BLP. S/he relies on an article in Hebrew, which s/he apparently does not understand, but I do. The article does not make this allegation, nor any similar claim."
   RolandR misrepresents 3 reliable sources as a single Hebrew source and claims the one Hebrew source (aka "an article") "does not make this allegation" of conviction of sexual offense.
2. 11:22, 30 July 2011 reverts with twinkle, removing 3 reliable sources, stating:
   1. Irish Times, "Ezra Yizhak Nawi, who was convicted of having sex with an underage Palestinian youth in 1992."
   2. Haaretz, Translation: "Nawi, who was convicted in the past of sodomy of a minor" (Google auto-translate)
   3. Israeli court: State of Israel vs. Nawi Ezra, Translation: "He was convicted in the past in violations of sodomy of a minor and making threats..." (Google auto-translate) page 2, section 4
3. 11:51, 30 July 2011 reverts again, " does not make this claim"
4. 12:00, 30 July 2011 reverts "vandalism" with twinkle, removing the 3 sources yet again.
5. 12:24, 30 July 2011 reverts "vandalism" with twinkle again - self-reverts

p.s. I used Google only to show that my own translation (native Israeli) was correct.

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

1. Blocked on 7 April by Magog the Ogre (talk · contribs)
2. Blocked on 1 June by Courcelles (talk · contribs)

(Is it necessary to copy-paste the diffs to all the other blocks at his Block log?)

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Firstly it should be noted that I tried to engage RolandR (talk · contribs) on his Talk page prior to coming here in the friendliest and most nonthreatening way possible. I was more than willing to assume good faith on his part and offer him the chance to explain his edits. But hardly did 15 minutes pass and he reverted my query, basically leaving me with no other alternative but coming to AE.

Now, I'm not a believer in drawing conclusions regarding an editor based on a superficial glance at his contribs; on the other hand, I'm also not about to spend hours going through User:RolandR's edits to cherry-pick the ones that support labeling him a Marxist anti-Zionist. I suspect, rather, that he himself will embrace that label as applying to him without considering it an affront to his identity. If not, though, I'm perfectly willing to strike out the suggestion and apologize to him if in the event that I've misjudged him.

To the matter of the diffs. In 1992 Ezra Nawi, an activist for various Palestinian causes, was convicted by an Israeli court of statutory rape of a Palestinian boy. It was in the news extensively then, and it's all over the news again now because of the presidential elections in Ireland. (See the New York Times, for example.) Yet there's no mention of Nawi's conviction anywhere in his article. No, it's not that no one ever tried to add that information to the article. On the contrary, many have. It's that RolandR has been repeatedly thwarting their attempts. In the diff that I've cited, RolandR reverts an exceedingly well-sourced addition to the article by another editor – and to make matters worse, he labels the other editor's contribution vandalism.

At anti-Zionism, RolandR reverted an edit by Wikifan12345 (talk · contribs) such that he attributed to Misplaced Pages's neutral voice a claim made or implied by a fringe website. According to his edit, some Jews are anti-Zionist, from which it follows that anti-Zionism is not inherently antisemitic. This is a problem because the website he references, jewsnotzionists.com, isn't a reliable source by any stretch of the imagination. What it is is an advocacy site for Jewish anti-Zionists.

Taken together, these diffs represent problematic behavior on RolandR's part, of projecting his personal values and beliefs onto the Project and disrupting sincerely constructive edits of other contributors. Again, I tried to seek clarification from RolandR regarding his behavior at his Talk page, but to no avail.—Biosketch (talk) 19:53, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Additional notes by Jaakobou
A self-professed anti-Zionist with a prominent history of enriching the project with anti-Israeli advocacy content and adornment of editors (and activists like Ezra Nawi) with a similar perspective (two samples: , , , , , , ), RolandR has managed to lose the ability to read Hebrew properly on Ezra Nawi, edit war and repeatedly remove 3 wiki-reliable sources, and led an admin, trusting an overdrawn claim of one a Hebrew related claim, into repeating the same action. I believe RolandR can contribute to the project properly if he keeps his political beliefs and idols out of his arguments (and stops removing well cited content, 3 wiki-reliable sources in this case, as "vandalism" using twinkle).

p.s. I apologize for the merger, but this is the best solution IMHO after seeing another case was put forth while I was finishing up mine. With respect, Jaakobou 21:24, 5 August 2011 (UTC) touch-ups 21:37, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

p.p.s. I've just noticed a few comments were made by an editor with whom I share an interaction ban. This would not have been an issue had I posted a case without merger, I am not sure on the best way of handling the issue (repost as a single case? ignoring each other on this post? other?). Let me know. Jaakobou 21:30, 5 August 2011 (UTC) - extra update/clarification+diffs 14:03, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

@EdJohnston,

Can you please direct me to a diff where RolandR has stated, prior to your revert (i.e. 13:20, 30 July 2011), that the issue is a "poorly-sourced sex charges and possible overstatement of the gravity of the offences."? All I could find is a patently false claim, made on 12:23, 30 July 2011 (and prior to that as well), regarding the Hebrew text of the Haaretz article. i.e. referring it as the only source and that it, supposedly, "does not make allegation, nor any similar claim." when Haaretz, as well as the other 2 sources (3 reliable sources) say he was convicted of "sodomy of/having sex with a minor/Palestinian youth". The details of the conviction are important for balance, sure, but they are irrelevant to RolandR's argument for reverting and of nudging you to revert as well on his behalf. It wasn't the Ezra Nawi debate which raised the red flag, but a straightforward misrepresentation of sources.

Warm regards, Jaakobou 23:14, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Note: Misplaced Pages is a collaborative project. RolandR's claims and repeated reverts were certainly enough to discourage any new editor -- seeing that 3 reliable sources are so easily misrepresented and removed again and again -- from making further contributions. Also, RolandR had not admitted to any fault in regards to Ezra Nawi (As of now). Just imagine the long term impact of his behavior if it is allowed to become a norm in the Israeli-Arab content area. New editors discouraged from making contributions and the old POV warriors would make an abundance of patently false claims about Hebrew and Arabic sources. Arbcom enforcement would be faced with extraordinary levels of battleground mentality, mud slinging and drama. Jaakobou 18:37, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

I really wish you had just answered my last message here. I was more than willing to listen and consider your perspective. But seeing as you aren't interested in dialog, I've referred your conduct to AE here.

Replies by Biosketch to editor comments

@Nableezy (talk · contribs), you mean to tell me that Hummus is I/P but trying to censor details pertaining to an Israeli who raped a Palestinian boy isn't? And I didn't mine through anyone's contribs. I used to closely monitor Anti-Zionism and it's still on my watchlist, and the incident involving Ezra Nawi is being featured prominently in the news now, and I naturally was interested in knowing what Misplaced Pages had to say about the guy. I found it peculiar that the editor who insisted on attributing to Misplaced Pages a claim made by jewsnotzionists.com was the same editor who insisted on whitewashing the biography of an Israeli activist for Palestinian causes convicted of statutory-raping a minor.—Biosketch (talk) 20:46, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

@RolandR (talk · contribs), "vexatious abuse of this noticeboard"? Next time someone asks you for clarification on your Talk page, maybe you oughtn't ignore and delete their message after fifteen minutes. You made it clear to me you had no intention of discussing the diffs I called your attention to. What exactly did you expect me to do?—Biosketch (talk) 20:55, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

@Nableezy (talk · contribs), it's neither here nor there what my feelings are about Jewish anti-Zionists. The point is one cannot claim that there are Jewish anti-Zionists using Misplaced Pages's voice in reference to an advocacy website that is itself anti-Zionist. The claim must be sourced to a WP:RS or formulated in such a way as to attribute the claim to the organization itself. You have insisted on the same standard of scholarship in your debates with other editors, so you shouldn't be applying a different standard in this case. With regards to Hummus, if it's being edit-warred over because of editors' political affiliations, yes, it should be subject to the same discretionary sanctions as more obviously I/P articles.—Biosketch (talk) 21:07, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

@Jaakobou (talk · contribs), I don't mind at all that you merged your Request into mine. I would advise you, however, to strike out forthwith any comments you made that may have been in violation of your interaction ban. Based on previous AEs, if you do so soon enough you'll preempt any sanctions against you.

@Everyone, apparently it needs to be stressed again: I didn't file this AE on a whim. It could be considered frivolous if I was sitting around my house reading Misplaced Pages articles, found a couple that weren't to my liking, and then came here to whine about it to the Admins. That seems to be the impression some users have formed below. But no. Ezra Nawi is being featured prominently in the news now for something that was being (per my argument deliberately) omitted from his BLP by RolandR. At the same time, RolandR was attributing a controversial claim to Misplaced Pages's voice that was sourced to a fringe anti-Zionist website. Upon observing his problematic edits on those two occasions, I tried to engage RolandR on his Talk page and solicit an explanation from him directly. He demonstrated that he had no intention at all of explaining his edits, and that was when I came here. If someone has an idea as to how I could have handled the matter differently than I did, do share it with me.

@Nableezy (talk · contribs), you're conveniently overlooking another aspect of RolandR's edit at Anti-Zionism. The way that sentence was formulated, beginning with the contrasting adverb yet, it conveyed to the reader that anti-Zionism is not inherently antisemitic. This is a more subtle but also a more problematic aspect pertaining to that diff, which either you aren't picking up on or you're trying to sidestep now. So let me make it clearer: RolandR inserted the sentence, "Yet some Jews remain anti-Zionists," immediately after the sentence, "Others contend that to the extent anti-Zionism represents opposition to Israel's existence, it is inherently antisemitic." RolandR usurped Misplaced Pages's voice to make two claims: (a) there are Jewish anti-Zionists, and (b) the existence of Jewish anti-Zionists undermines the claim that anti-Zionism is inherently antisemitic. I don't know about all the other editors here but I do think you're prehensile enough to understand how that's WP:OR and, in RolandR's case since he's a Marxist anti-Zionist, an instance of him pushing his POV onto Misplaced Pages's voice.—Biosketch (talk) 09:15, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

@Nableezy (talk · contribs), you're wrong for two reasons. 1. This incident transcends the scope of a content dispute and has clear implications regarding user conduct in a topic area covered by discretionary sanctions. It was the nature of the edits that triggered my alarm and the fact that, when considered together, they pointed to a bias on the editor's part in violation of NPOV. 2. You think I care that RolandR (talk · contribs) is a Marxist anti-Zionist? I don't – just as no one here should care what I did in my life between the ages of 18 and 21. But it also shouldn't be obvious to me from examining two of his edits that that's what he is. "Editing from a neutral point of view (NPOV) means representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources." At Ezra Nawi User:RolandR did not represent proportionately all significant views that have been published by reliable sources. He repeatedly removed significant views that had been published by reliable sources under pretexts of vandalism. At Anti-Zionism RolandR again did not represent fairly all significant views that have been published by reliable sources. He used an unreliable source to represent his own view – that the purported existence of Jewish anti-Zionists is a counterargument to saying that anti-Zionism is inherently antisemitic. Clearer now?—Biosketch (talk) 07:14, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

@EdJohnston (talk · contribs), "Should this use be considered to violate WP:ARBPIA?" – see Discussion page, since this is more of a meta-level question and the discussion here's gotten bloated.—Biosketch (talk) 07:21, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

@Nableezy (talk · contribs), I'm aware of his comment, though I'm not sure I completely get his drift. At any rate, my response to you addresses his concerns as well.—Biosketch (talk) 08:05, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Discussion concerning RolandR

Statement by RolandR

PLEASE NOTE that I shall be going away tomorrow morning (UK time), and likely to have only sporadic internet access for the next two weeks. I therefore request that, unless this case is closed tonight, any decision is postponed until the end of the month. I should also point out that any sanctions over the next two weeks are likely to be purely symbolic rather than effective. RolandR (talk) 18:20, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

This is ridiculous; an entirely spurious and worthless claim.

In the first place, it is not an offence to be a Marxist and an anti-Zionist; nor even to edit Misplaced Pages while being a Marxist and an anti-Zionist. That comment should be struck out. Not because I am "affronted", but because it is irrelevant, an apparent attempt to have me sanctioned because of my beliefs, not my edits.

Second, both blocks noted by Biosketch were swiftly reversed; in both cases, it was accepted that I had been attempting to protect biographies (one of a living person, one of a recently murdered person) against abusive edits by sockpuppets.

As to the specific edits adduced here: on the Ezra Nawi article, Biosketch claims that my edit on 30 July was invalid, and that I should have known this because of an article published in the New York Times on 3 August! It is not the case that the case itself was "in the news extensively" in 1992; part of the problem here is that there appears to be no contemporary account, in Hebrew or English, of the incident, and it has been extremely difficult to establish the facts. Certainly, at the time of my edit, the information was sketchy, and the source cited did not verify the serious charges made. My edit was perfectly legitimate.

On Anti-Zionism, I was reverting a removal of text, which had been justified with the edit summary "a) unreliable source b) infers jews cannot be antisemitic. that is a fallacy". I pointed out that any inference drawn from the text was the editor's own synthesis, and that the source was indeed reliable for the organisation's own views. Biosketch may strongly dispute these views, as is his right; but he cannot deny that many Jews do indeed hold them. Again, I do not see any way in which my edit was illegitimate or disruptive.

I think that this complaint is entirely without merit, and hope that it will be rejected out of hand, and Biosketch warned against such vexatious abuse of this noticeboard. RolandR (talk) 20:39, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't understand why Wikifan thinks that I wasn't "involved in" Anti-Zionism. Toolserver shows that I am the fifth most frequent contributor, with 78 edits over the past five years. None of the first four has edited the article in the past year, making me in effect the most prolific currently active contributor.

Nor do I see the problem with my edit. Wikifan removed as poorly sourced material which, as others have noted here, barely needs a source. I replaced this, and he has since reverted me. I intend to replace this later, with other sources. But really, is this AE based on the claim that I have replaced a source removed by another editor as "fringe"?

Regarding the Ezra Nawi article, I repeat that the Haaretz article relied on does not confirm the facts it was adduced to prove. It does not mention a Palestinian youth, it does not state that Nawi has been sent to prison at all, let alone twice, and it does not mention any dates, including 1992, 1997 and 2006. I still maintain that, under the circumstances, using this article as evidence for alleged facts it did not confirm was a breach of BLP. The edits which I made reverting what I described as vandalism were accompanied by warnings to the editor involved for breach of the policies on edit-warring and biographies of living people. This was a legitimate use of Twinkle, in support of maintaining core Misplaced Pages policies. RolandR (talk) 14:10, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Both Haaretz and the Israeli court source only mention the conviction but do not mention the sodomized youth was a Palestinian. That politically incorrect detail is located in the Irish Times. IMHO, There is a limit to the BLP argument when the basis for that claim was that the Hebrew doesn't say he was convicted when it does. Btw, the court source edit-warred over says Nawi was in prison twice (page 7, section 16). Jaakobou 14:31, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Wikifan now writes "I never suggested you were not involved in Anti-Zionism. I said, specifically, you were not involved in the talk discussion". Just to jog his memory, what he actually wrote was "What is odd is that Roland wasn't even involved in the article at the time. It just feels weird to know he is following me around." That looks to me like specifically saying that I wasn't involved in the article. And I'm not "following him around"; as one of the main editors on the article, of course I have it on my Watchlist. RolandR (talk) 17:53, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Uh? That was a reference to this AE you filed against me pertaining to West Bank Barrier, an article you had no presence in. Nothing to do with Anti-Zionism-related edits. For the record, this was the source Roland inserted into the article. I'm pretty certain that is unreliable, though I haven't searched the RSN threads. Wikifan 07:52, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

NOTE: Regarding RolandR's paragraph starting with, "As to the specific edits adduced here: on the Ezra Nawi article" above. At the time of 11:22, 30 July 2011 and of subsequent reverts, the 3 sources (Irish Times, Haaretz, Israeli Court Judge) did verify the serious charges made. Jaakobou 08:38, 14 August 2011 (UTC) +clarify 20:22, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning RolandR

The first diff cited is not in the ARBPIA topic area, the second is using a primary source for the views of the source (namely that the group is Jewish and against Zionism). There is an unfortunate tendency on display here, one in which an editor mines though others contributions so that they may attempt to find any diff that they feel can be used as damning evidence of misconduct. Fortunately, those efforts largely fall flat on their face as any truly damning diffs would be noticed as they occurred. This is one such instance. Biosketch in his lengthy commentary above writes that the source Roland used in the second diff is an advocacy site for Jewish anti-Zionists. Now, that pretty obviously says that there are Jewish anti-Zionists. Which is the only thing that Roland used this website as a source for. To argue that this is "POV-pushing" is, well, POV-pusing (namely, the attempt to exclude a specific POV).

Now to the first diff. The first sentence is sourced (though the use of the word sodomy is not, the cited article says convicted of having sex without specifying the type of sex), though the rest is cited only to Hebrew language sources, one of which is the actual court case. The court case cannot be used in a BLP, as we are required to use reliable secondary sources for any contentious claims (and a claim of a criminal conviction is certainly contentious). As this is a BLP, I personally would prefer the source cited be in English so that it is more easily verifiable, but if it actually does support the material then I suppose it would be fine, but as I cannot read Hebrew I cannot say whether or not it does so. But either way, whether or not this person was convicted of drug possession or any other crime is not in the ARBPIA topic area and as such is irrelevant for this board. nableezy - 20:23, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Biosketch, do you really, honestly, dispute that some Jews are anti-Zionist? That is the only thing that Roland sourced to this website. It is something that cannot possibly be under any dispute, to the point that it honestly should not even need a source. Hummus should not be in the topic area either, but because some of the editors here are, well Ill leave that word untyped, that there has been long-term edit warring over what categories belong, or what languages belong, or other such trivial nonsense. But no, whether or not this person was convicted of rape or drug possession or any other crime is not in the Arab-Israeli topic area. In short, I agree with the volunteer below. nableezy - 20:54, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Biosketch, I cant disagree with the premise that sources should be of a certain quality, and further I say that in this topic area in particular sources should be held to a higher standard than we see in the rest of Misplaced Pages. Perhaps Roland would have been better off just citing any other higher quality source instead of the primary source he used. My point is that the line does not even need a source, it cannot be disputed by somebody acting in good faith, and to that point you yourself appear unwilling to dispute the statement above, choosing to instead side-step past the query. To use the restoration of that sentence as evidence of "POV-pushing" and disregarding the removal of a clearly relevant and undeniably true statement is itself evidence of "POV-pushing". And honestly, if you had a problem with the use of that source, the place to go would be the article talk page. Not here. nableezy - 06:57, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Im not overlooking anything, conveniently or otherwise. What I am seeing is that an editor is manufacturing a conduct issue out of a content dispute. That Roland used a source you dont like is not an issue for this noticeboard. You claim that his removal of your comment on his talk page left you no choice but to come here, but that is so obviously not true that I struggle to find a suitable way to describe the claim. You could have gone to the article talk page, the reliable sources noticeboard, or the OR noticeboard (as he was citing a primary source). In fact, you should have gone to each of those places before you went to his user talk page, much less before you came here. Roland is under no obligation to discuss anything with you on his user talk page. He is however required to address concerns on an article talk page, and respect consensus. If you were interested in anything other than getting somebody whose Marxist anti-Zionist views you apparently find so objectionable blocked you would have gone there instead of here. nableezy - 19:31, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Biosketch, you are attributing arguments to Roland that he did not make, kindly dont do that. See ZScarpia's comments on why your view is more a product of your imagination than fact. nableezy - 14:31, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Comment by Volunteer Marek

With regard to the first diff - there was actually several other reverts on this article as this was essentially an edit war between RolandR and User:Cckkab. However, this IS a BLP and the text being inserted by Cckkab was a potential BLP violation. In fact EdJohnston subsequently protected the article and removed the same text that RolandR was removing . This was also addressed at 3RR. This suggests that content-wise RolandR was NOT POV-pushing.

The second diff is a single revert, and while strictly speaking RolandR should have attributed the opinion to the source just to make sure, this is at bottom another content dispute. Nothing to see here.

This appears to be yet another essentially frivolous AE request related to the IP area. Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:27, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Just to make sure everyone's on the same page: reverting others, by itself, IS NOT against any kind of Misplaced Pages policy or ArbCom decision. In fact, in many cases reverts can be beneficial to the encyclopedia. Hence, putting up diffs of a revert here or there by a particular editor really serves no purpose, except as "diff-padding".Volunteer Marek (talk) 01:55, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Comment by Wikifan12345

I guess I should weigh in cause my name is mentioned. The only complaint I have about RolandR is his occasional uncivilized demeanor. Like Bio mentioned above, Roland accuses me of inserting my own synthesis when I removed an unreliable source. I opened a discussion here which I know RolandR has seen but apparently hasn't responded to. Also, Roland recently opened up an AE against me over a 1RR violation demanding a topic ban. That generated a lot of drama and ended up with a warning.

What is odd is that Roland wasn't even involved in the article at the time. It just feels weird to know he is following me around. Also, I know editors have more rights over their talk page but I found this response totally unnecessary: Removing unwanted nonsense. A cordial reminder about how AE's are carried out in a notice he filed himself? Misplaced Pages is all about collaboration and honestly I'm kind of afraid to edit articles articles RolandR dominates - like anti-Zionism because he won't engage in talk discussion and will remove all my contributions.

However, I don't see how this violates ARBPIA. I have to go with Marek here. Editors rely too much on AE to resolve content disputes. Dismiss and warn Bio. Wikifan 23:15, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

@ Roland

I don't understand why Wikifan thinks that I wasn't "involved in" Anti-Zionism. Toolserver shows that I am the fifth most frequent contributor, with 78 edits over the past five years. None of the first four has edited the article in the past year, making me in effect the most prolific currently active contributor.

I never suggested you were not involved in Anti-Zionism. I said, specifically, you were not involved in the talk discussion. Your revert was IMO baseless and without merit. You re-inserted a very unreliable source, then accused me of SYNTH? Seriously? Look at my revert, look at the discussion. Collaborate, communicate, etc. Wikifan 14:28, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Possible 1 rr violation

I've come to understand how important 1rr is in I/P conflict. So is this a violation?

• Revision as of 09:54, 8 August 2011
• Latest revision as of 16:58, 8 August 2011

2 reverts in 7 hours. The first edit looks like Roland removed cited content. A few days ago Roland filed a 1rr violation against me calling for a topic ban just to be clear. Wikifan 23:45, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

I really don't think this is a violation of 1RR. But, to prevent any possible breach, I have self-reverted my second edit, and restored the highly POV content, with which I personally agree but which is clearly inappropriate for Misplaced Pages. RolandR (talk) 00:05, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

And also, note that the restriction states: "Clear vandalism, or edits by anonymous IP editors, may be reverted without penalty". The second edit was a reversion of an edit by an anonymous IP, so in any case exempt from the sanctions. RolandR (talk) 00:10, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Comment by Gatoclass

Another frivolous case initiated by Jaakobou - and unfortunately by Biosketch, who is rapidly establishing a similar pattern. Whether or not one agrees with RolandR's reversions in this instance, they were clearly within the remit of WP:BLP, and EdJohnston, an uninvolved admin, effectively endorsed Roland's cautionary approach when he made the same revert "per BLP" before protecting the page. Moreover, the issue appears to be reaching a resolution on the article talk page, so there was absolutely no need to initiate a case here. Gatoclass (talk) 06:11, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Gatoclass,

EdJohnston acted in good faith and trusted RolandR's claim that there is only one Hebrew source (per "an article") rather than 3 and that the Hebrew did not say "Nawi, who was convicted in the past of sodomy of a minor" when it does say this. RolandR misled EdJohnston into making that revert.

With respect, Jaakobou 11:12, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

p.s. please avoid making personal attacks (per "another frivolous"). See also poor form. 11:17, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Personal attack - nonsense. AE exists expressly to discuss the behaviour of editors, you have been warned about presenting meritless cases on many occasions previously as I recall, indeed only a few months ago you received a formal warning from Sandstein for the very same. Personally I think it's well past time you were sanctioned for this sort of conduct, but I haven't the time or inclination to compile the history, so I suppose you will get away with it yet again. Gatoclass (talk) 05:25, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Dear Gatoclass,

Do you have any diff made by RolandR which explains why he would misrepresent Haaretz (aka "an article") and state "does not make this allegation" of conviction of sexual offense when it clearly says: "Nawi, who was convicted in the past of sodomy of a minor"? Can you find an explanation by him during the time of his multiple reverts which explains why he claimed: "sources cited do not confirm this claim" when the 3 sources do, in fact, confirm the material in the paragraph?

With respect, Jaakobou 11:42, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Comment by Cptnono

Disregarding ARBPIA completely, a discussion might be appropriate regarding the suspension of Twinkle privileges. Not sure if that should be somewhere else but to make a few quick points: It should be more obvious vandalism and the edit summaries should have been clearer regarding feelings on BLP. The situation may not have have escalated if an editor was not being repeatedly called a vandal.Cptnono (talk) 05:47, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

That was my first request. The latter one I've made can be rescinded if there were to be made an acknowledgement of error. Jaakobou 11:19, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Sorry if I was not clear. I wasn't trying to comment on the merit of the request or anything like that. Just trying to get the ball rolling here or somewhere else (not sure what the perfect venue is) on not letting the editor use an anti-vandalism tool since he used it in a content dispute.Cptnono (talk) 20:41, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Comments by ZScarpia

(Comment 1)

My Projectionometer™ is registering a strong signal in the vicinity of the Additional notes by Jaakobou section.     ←   ZScarpia   13:17, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

(Comment 2)

Biosketch wrote:

So let me make it clearer: RolandR inserted the sentence, "Yet some Jews remain anti-Zionists," immediately after the sentence, "Others contend that to the extent anti-Zionism represents opposition to Israel's existence, it is inherently antisemitic." RolandR usurped Misplaced Pages's voice to make two claims: (a) there are Jewish anti-Zionists, and (b) the existence of Jewish anti-Zionists undermines the claim that anti-Zionism is inherently antisemitic.

Biosketch's logic is faulty. Roland made an existential statement about anti-Zionist Jews, but without indicating the implications of the statement or conclusions that should be drawn from it. There are many conflicting possibilties, but none of them positively implied by what was written. I think that Biosketch drew the inference he did because he saw what he wanted to see.

The Oxford English Dictionary gives many different meanings for the word yet, most of them having to do with time. In spite of appears to me to be the one closest to what Roland meant. Substituting the use of the word despite, then, the meaning of Roland's sentence is:

Despite the contention that to the extent anti-Zionism represents opposition to Israel's existence it is inherently antisemitic, some Jews remain anti-Zionists.

Looking at that I can think of a different possible implications of that, but nothing definitely implied. For instance, it could be possible that: some Jews could be antisemitic themselves; some Jews could believe that Zionism is worse than antisemitism; some Jews may not believe that anti-Zionism is inherently antisemitic. The reasoning which probably produced Biosketch's conviction that the inevitable implication of Roland's sentence is that anti-Zionism is not antisemitic is too deterministic for me. In fact, probably in common with a lot of editors here, the reading I've done has supplied reasons why there are anti-Zionist Jews, which include the following. Some Jews are anti-Zionist because it is an ideology which offends their political or ethical beliefs. Some are because it offends their religious beliefs (for instance, some believe that Jews should have waited for God to send someone to lead them back to the Promised Land). Some are because Zionism threatens their safety (in a past example, there was opposition to Zionism in its early days from Jews already living in the Palestine area because they believed that it would inevitably lead to inter-communal violence; Zionism was also opposed because it was thought that antisemites would use it as a propaganda weapon to claim that Jews' proper homes were somewhere else).

Biosketch called the statement that there are anti-Zionist Jews "a controversial claim" and one that "must be sourced to a WP:RS or formulated in such a way as to attribute the claim to the organization itself."

In its introduction, WP:RS says: "To show that it is not original research, all material added to articles must be attributable to a reliable, published source appropriate for the content in question, but in practice you do not need to attribute everything." The latter part of that sentence justifies the existence in Misplaced Pages articles of huge numbers of unsourced non-controversial statements. They are there because there truth is so obvious that nobody challenges them.

Looking, as an example, at the Zionism article, we hit the unsourced statement: At that time, the movement sought to encourage Jewish migration to the Ottoman Palestine. The statement is not there because editors are too lazy to challenge it, but because its truth is so obvious that nobody sane, who understood the rules, had a passing knowledge of Zionism and who wasn't trying to make trouble would challenge it. To me and, I'm fairly sure, a large number of other editors, Roland's sentence is obviously true too. I'm sure that many people involved in the IP area of Misplaced Pages could run off a list of bitterly fought over articles whose subjects are anti-Zionist Jews without having to give it much thought. Why would Biosketch challenge the sentence? One of the odd things about it for me is that one of his sentences here tends to indicate that he accepts the existence of anti-Zionist Jews. He wrote: "@Nableezy, it's neither here nor there what my feelings are about Jewish anti-Zionists." Another odd thing is that I'm sure that he must know that Roland, as well as being an anti-Zionist Marxist, is Jewish and therefore a living example of the thing whose existence he is challenging.

    ←   ZScarpia   01:51, 7 August 2011 (UTC) (correction made: 11:05, 10 August 2011 (UTC))

(Comment 3)

@Biosketch, 08:05, 9 August 2011 (UTC): I'll try to explain myself more clearly. As far as the Anti-Zionism article is concerned, you've misrepresented what the sentence prior to the one added by Roland said. You've misrepresented the purport of Roland's sentence. And you've invented a motivation for Roland. In other words, you've constructed a rather nasty straw man. Having invented your straw man, you're using it to try and have Roland sanctioned and to stop the addition of Roland's simple statement of transparent truth to the article. If anyone is POV-pushing, it is you.     ←   ZScarpia   21:21, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Comments by Nishidani

Roland's revert, the first above, was completely justified because what was involved was a piece of linguistic sleight-of-hand. The source says he was convicted of sodomy. This was phrased as a conviction for sodomizing a minor. Perhaps it is a sign of the decay of the times, or is it the drift into pornomorbid sleaze in public discourse and tabloid politics, that the obvious distinction here is lost on many. 'Sodomy' is generic, and refers to acts deemed characteristic of homosexual behaviour and in violation of the law forbidding the same in certain backward (sorry about the pun) countries (sorry about that too). 'Sodomize' is specific, and refers to anal intercourse. Do I need to refer readers to the extensive memoirs of the Bloomsbury and Homintern writers where this distinction was well-known, and where many homosexuals a court might have convicted of 'sodomy' in the legal sense (homosexual acts) disdained anal intercourse. I don't want to go into the details, but no one has a right to infer that a conviction of sodomy implies a type of act. Many of the lads in England thought intercrural rapports were the best, and that, while a case in legalese of 'sodomy', has nothing to do with sodomizing. Precisely this inference on the part of those editors who supported the text which Roland rightly reverted was an instance of WP:OR and WP:BLP violations. Nishidani (talk) 19:52, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

You certainly raised an interesting linguistic concern regarding the use of 'sodomising', but I don't see that this is what RolandR meant when he deleted the entire paragraph. If he clarified this somewhere, I would appreciate a diff.

Warm regards, Jaakobou 13:30, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Result concerning RolandR

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

• I prefer that this report be closed by a different admin, since I previously took action myself to fully protect the Ezra Nawi article per a complaint at WP:AN3, due to edit warring about poorly-sourced sex charges and possible overstatement of the gravity of the offences. I rolled back the article to an earlier version per WP:BLP, waiting for a proper summary of the sex charges to be arrived at by consensus on the talk page. Should Nawi be described as a pedophile or a rapist? Should his article be placed in the Category:Child sexual abuse? Some caution about this is required under WP:BLP.
• The history of admin action is explained at Talk:Ezra_Nawi#Unprotected. Edit requests were filed during the period of protection and some of them were acted on by other admins. Since protection was lifted, the referencing of the article has improved quite a bit. The New York Times made a good summary themselves on August 3 due to events that occurred in Ireland since the original article protection was imposed.
• On the question of whether anti-Zionist Jews exist, I hope that some other admins (or uninvolved editors) will look into whether there is anything of substance. So far I don't see anything, and I don't at this time see any good reason why the report can't be closed with no action. One of the two diffs included by Biosketch in his original report as (in his view) a violation of ARBPIA is this one, where RolandR links to jewsnotzionists.org as a source for their own beliefs. (Technically, to verify the statement 'Yet some Jews remain anti-Zionists'). Should this use be considered to violate WP:ARBPIA? Of course it is up to the consensus of editors whether it is important enough to remain in the article, but that's normal editorial process. The fact that Roland believed that a link to http://www.jewsnotzionists.org could be used to verify a statement in the article is not an issue to be brought to Arbitration Enforcement. EdJohnston (talk) 19:36, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Smatprt

Miradre

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Miradre

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Mathsci (talk) 11:26, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Miradre (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Topic ban under WP:ARBR&I.

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

• (historic record of discussion on Talk:Criticism of evolutionary psychology)

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

A warning was given in the discussion above.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Miradre has been editing the article Criticism of evolutionary psychology for a while now. The subject is not directly related to the topic ban, but there is nevertheless some proximity with topics covered in Race and intelligence and History of the race and intelligence controversy. The article currently contains a section Reification fallacy (historic link) which in its first paragraph discusses in detail the reification of intelligence, a topic introduced by Stephen Jay Gould in the precise context of the debate on R&I in the two articles above (it is discussed in those articles). I have advised Miradre that even discussing that section, or proposing that he would move it and thus edit that content, is a clear violation of the topic ban imposed by 2over0 (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA). The responses of Miradre in the section linked to above were evasive and gave no recognition that this particular topic ("the reification of intelligence") lay well within the topic ban. The discussion took place on the talk page of the article because Miradre has previously blanked messages from me on their user talk page.

Another edit of this kind occurred in the section on "criticism" in Sociobiology, a week into the topic ban. The beginning of the section makes it clear that the criticisms were related to the debate on race and intelligenc: there is a wikilink to the article race and intelligence. This material, including its relation with sociobiology, is also covered in the article on the history of the race and intelligence controversy. Miradre edited the section here, two paragraphs after the paragraph where the debate on race and intelligence is discussed. Miradre has edited other parts of this article more recently.

Miradre added the section on IQ in psychopathy 2 days before the topic ban, which is fine. But correcting somebody else's edit to it after the ban does not seem quite right.

Userspace edits like this , with an explicit discussion of R&I content and literature, are also blatantly pushing at the limits of the topic ban. Mathsci (talk) 11:32, 8 August 2011 (UTC) further edits. Mathsci (talk) 11:14, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

• Concluding comments The extended topic bans imposed here on Captain Occam and Ferahgo the Assassin should probably be revised to exclude compulsarily participation in WP:AE requests related to WP:ARBR&I in which they are not involved. As a result of Captain Occam's intervention, others, including me, have made general comments here on Miradre's editing patterns following his topic ban.

Taking into account the views of multiple experienced editors commenting here about Miradre's edits (presented as a consequence of Captain Occam's comments), it would appear that Miradre might be heading for a, regrettably unavoida.ble, indefinite community ban. That of course is not a concern of this noticeboard. Mathsci (talk) 09:09, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning Miradre

Statement by Miradre

• The topic ban is regarding the intersection of race and intelligence. There was no discussion regarding race. Neither was there a discussion regarding intelligence. I was simply pointing out that the given source does not mention evolutionary psychology at all. I was making no claim regarding and did not discus either race or intelligence and thus not their intersection. The Reification (fallacy) is of course not something limited to race and intelligence or for that matter invented by Gould but a general logical fallacy discussed in numerous other areas. Miradre (talk) 11:49, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

• Futhermore, the claim by Matschi that the terms intelligence and reification are somehow inseparable from the race and intelligence discussion and "has never been used in another context to my knowledge" is very strange considering that there is no mention of race in the "Reification fallacy" section. Furthermore, there are 18,600 Google Scholar hits for the terms "intelligence" and "reification". Most do not seem to mention race.
• Not sure why Mathsci brings up that quote from Gould's book. As noted above, I made no claims regarding and did not discuss either race or intelligence. Obviously therefore not their intersection. I stated that there is no mention of evolutionary psychology in the claimed sources. Neither does the "Reification fallacy" section discuss the race and intelligence controversy or mention race at all. The Reification (fallacy) is a common logical fallacy in numerous different fields. Miradre (talk) 14:40, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
• Mathsci has more recently also added a diff from the sociobiology article which he claims is related to an hidden, unsourced link several paragraphs away. The link is hidden under the name "controversies in the history of intelligence testing" and the article text itself does not mention race. Anyway, the is–ought problem is about statements of the type "if there is rape/infanticide/incest among some animal species, then humans ought to practice rape/infanticide/incest also". It is not about the race and intelligence controversy. None of the race and intelligence articles mention that problem. Miradre (talk) 12:36, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
• Mathsci also objects to me removing an incorrectly placed citation mark in the psychopathy article. Had nothing to do with the intersection of race and intelligence. Shows the desperate nature of the accusations.Miradre (talk) 11:28, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
• Note also this seems be part of a general harassment of me. Wherever I go Mathsci and sometimes Aprock appears to oppose me, even if they never had made any edits to the articles before. In particular Mathsci's almost only recent activity in Misplaced Pages is following me around as can be seen from his edit history. Often to articles he has never edited before I started editing them. As well as making numerous different complaints to various noticeboards or persons regarding me or the articles I edit. Something should be done about what seems to have become an almost scary obsession with me. Miradre (talk) 21:03, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
• Also, the earlier topic banned Mathsci has clearly broken his promise to the ArbCom to stay away from this area. See for example his edits here in a discussion regarding Lynn's book IQ and the Wealth of Nations: . Miradre (talk) 14:21, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
• Mathsci has now added a strange, misleading, and inaccurate misrepresentation of a dispute at the Democracy Now article. I did not mention that quote in the talk page in response to removing the information from the tax statement as Mathsci claims. I mentioned that biased quote as an ironic counter against the equally biased self-congratulatory, self-published quotes that are prominent in the article. As anyone can see on Talk:Democracy_Now!#NPOV_Dispute:_Quotes. As well as Mathsci's refusal to include anything negative. Also, this is unrelated to this AE case. Miradre (talk) 02:11, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
• Mathsci continues with his misrepresentations. First he implies that I had made a COI complaint while I only asked him to consider this on the talk page of the article. It was Mathsci who made a complaint regarding this on COI board which lead to no action since I had made no COI complaint. Regarding the copyright complaint Mathsci had uploaded a copyrighted paper to his webpage and gave a public link to this. This link was of course removed by the reviewing administrator. Also, again, this is completely unrelated to this AE case so I do not understand why he takes it up. Seems to be further harassment. Miradre (talk) 08:44, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
• Mathsci continues with completely unrelated issues. Yes, I accept the result of the discussion at the BLP board which I initiated but it has nothing to do with the topic ban. Miradre (talk) 16:24, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
• Continuing with yet more unrelated issues, Mathsci now starts talking of an "unavoidable, indefinite" community ban. Every one of the critical editors who have expressed opinions here are editors who have been involved in extensive content disputes with me. They are not uninvolved or representative of the community. I note that I edit constructively and add substantial new material to Misplaced Pages from academic sources while Mathsci's only activity these days seems to be to participate in disputes and WP:WIKIHOUND and revert those editors he dislikes. See also Captain Occam's comments regarding this below. Miradre (talk) 17:02, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
• Mathsci is now accusing an evolutionary psychologist objecting to his view of having a COI. This is just as incorrect as it would be to accuse the anthropologists supporting him of having a COI. Also, it likely violates the prohibition against using COI accusations in order to gain the upper hand in disputes. Miradre (talk) 13:43, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
• Mathsci has also not so subtly accused me of antisemitism. That is offensive and incorrect. I have never made any such edits or comments. In fact, I have repeatedly reverted deletions of material by antisemitic editors regarding IQ. As well as argued that recognition of racial differences in IQ is necessary in order to explain differing group achievements which otherwise likely are seen as unjustified exploitations by high IQ groups and can have, and have had, consequences like persecution and genocide of high IQ groups. See my comments here copied from an earlier ArbCom case: User:Miradre/sandbox2 Miradre (talk) 10:31, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

• In addition Mathsci apparently thinks that the topic ban prohibits me from defending myself against such accusations since he cites the sandbox quoting an earlier arbitration case as additional evidence. Miradre (talk) 11:20, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

• Reply to Aprock: Aprock has already tried to get the ArbCom to ban me for editing such articles in the Request for Clarification but he was ignored. Again taking up exactly the same accusations (including the book Human Accomplishment and its rankings of the fame of individuals) that was ignored by the ArbCom is harassment. None of the articles are about either intelligence or race. Obviously therefore not about their intersection. See also my earlier reply to his identical, ignored accusations earlier before the ArbCom: Miradre (talk) 18:19, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

• Also, he includes an edit that I had self-reverted:

• Reply to ResidentAnthropologist (As well as Maunus, AndyTheGrump, and Itsmejudith who consistently turn up and argue with the same strong personal POV on these topics): This comment is somewhat weird. He seems to be arguing that all pages with a discussion of liberal and conservative views are related to race and intelligence. I can assure him that they are not. Also his claim that my view is that "the mainstream consensus is wrong on R&I" certainly does not describe my POV on that issue. My POV is that the majority view among academic IQ researchers as has been determined in surveys is correct. Currently one focus for me is improving Misplaced Pages's articles on evolutionary psychology subjects which also include the application in anthropology. That is a sensitive subject for some anthropologists who reject evolutionary psychology. Which may be behind ResidentAnthropologist's (as well as Maunus's) objections. However, there are many things in politics and psychology that are not about the race and intelligence controversy. I have avoided any edits concerning either race and intelligence and thus also their intersection. Some seem to be using the topic ban as an excuse to stop me from editing any topic they personally disagree on. Miradre (talk) 03:15, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
  • Additional comment to AndyTheGrump: He claims without any evidence that "almost all anthropologists 'reject evolutionary psychology". Of course, I have already cited evidence to the contrary such as introductory anthropology textbooks on the Cultural Anthropology talk page. But I think his complaint illustrates quite nicely the attempt to use AE enforcement to win content disputes on issues unrelated to the topic ban. Miradre (talk) 13:46, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
  • Additional comment to Itsmejudith: She argues that my "English is poor too so when s/he adds large amounts of content, other people have to clean up afterwards." I am not a native speaker. But I have almost all of what I add on my watchlist and "cleaning up" does not seem to occur to any significant degree. Also, this does not seem to be an AE issue. Miradre (talk) 15:29, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
• Reply to Slrubenstein: Since Slrubenstein is another anthropologist ideologically opposed to evolutionary psychology also look above. First, the representation of the debate at the cultural anthropology has numerous factual errors and misrepresentations but since Slrubenstein admits it did not concern R&I arbitration there is no reason to go into details. Second, evolutionary arguments are not an important or even at all part of the debate and evidence regarding whether racial differences in intelligence are genetic or not. That evidence concerns statistical analyzes of IQ tests, brain scanning, reactions time, genetic testing, and on. Now, there may be evolutionary explanations if it is proven that the differences are genetic but that is another issue. The race and IQ debate is not dependent on evolutionary psychology but it may be that certain views and ideologies in anthropology that some anthropologists here endorse do are dependent on evolutionary psychology views not being true. Again I have avoided any edits concerning either race and intelligence and thus also their intersection. Some seem to be using the topic ban as an excuse to stop me from editing any topic they personally disagree on for other reasons. Miradre (talk) 12:33, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning Miradre

Comments by aprock

I'll start by noting that Miradre has been testing the boundaries of his topic ban from day one. His request for clarification for precise delineation of "broadly construed" was submitted within 24 hours of his topic ban. Since then he has gone on to make edits in a large number of articles testing the boundary. The topic area is "the intersection of race/ethnicity and human abilities and behaviour, broadly construed" as described in the case amendments. Miradre has pursued two topic areas related to the topic ban. Miradre's edits in these topic areas have generated significant dispute and disruption. Extensive walls of text have been produced on talk pages and notice boards involving a diverse group of editors. Links to such discussions are included.

The first topic area is that of evolutionary explanations for behavior and ability. This is a generalization of the point of view that Miradre was pushing in the topic area when he was banned. Specifically, Miradre was promoting content which supported the position that intelligence is genetically linked to race.

Editing of artilces to promote the views of evolutionary psychology and genetic determinism.

• A Darwinian Left: genetically determined behavior
• A Natural History of Rape: genetic evolution of rape
• Aggression: evolutionary explanations of aggression
• Antisocial personality disorder: 9 edits. genetic vs. social explanations
• Beard: evolutionary psychology explanations for beards
• Bride price: evolutionary psychology explains it all
• Causes of sexual violence: evolutionary explanation of rape
• Cognitive bias: promotion of evolutionary psychology
• Criticism of evolutionary psychology: 106 edits. (see discussion above)

Talk:Criticism of evolutionary psychology: majority of talk page

• Criticisms of socialism: evolutionary criticism of socialism from A Darwinian Left
• Cultural anthropology: 5 edits. evolutionary/genetic explanations

Talk:Cultural_anthropology#NPOV_dispute: talk page discussion (quite the worthwhile read)

• Darwinian literary studies: promoting evolutionary psychology
• Dowry: evolutionary psychology explanations for dowries
• Evolutionary approaches to depression: promotion of evolutionary psychology
• Evolutionary developmental psychopathology: promotion of evolutionary psychology
• Evolutionary ethics: 7 edits. removing eugenics information
• Evolutionary musicology: promotion of evolutionary psychology
• Evolutionary psychology: 10 edits. criticisms of environmental explanations

Talk:Evolutionary_psychology#Controversies_section_violates_NPOV: talk page discussion

Misplaced Pages:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard: notice board discussion

• Evolutionary psychology of religion: evolutionary explanation of religion
• Gender and crime: genetic explanations for gender differences in crime
• History of evolutionary psychology touting of evolutionary psychology
• Modularity of the mind: 9 edits. added evolutionary psychology content
• Nature vs nurture: 5 edits. moved evolutionary psychology material to the article
• Physical attractiveness: promotion of evolutionary psychology
• Psychopathy: 96 edits. evolutionary explanations

Talk:Psychopathy#Prenatal_precursor_section: talk page discussion

• Social anthropology: 6 edits. social vs. evolutionary explanations
• Sociobiological theories of rape: evolutionary explanations of rape
• Sperm competition: link article to Sociobiological theories of rape
• The Blank Slate: 35 edits. The article is about a popular book that argues for more consideration of genetic explanation of human behavior

Talk:The Blank Slate#Book reviews: talk page discussion

• Violence: evolutionary/genetic explanations of violence
• War: 10 edits. Inserting evolutionary psychology views from The Blank Slate

The second topic area is in the promotion of Charles Murray's book Human Accomplishment. As author of The Bell Curve Charles Murray is a key figure in the race and intelligence debate.

Editing of articles to promote Charles Murray's book:

• Discussion at NPOV/N: (archived version: )
• Aristotle
• Einstein's awards and honors
• Genius
• Historiometry
• Isaac Newton
• Leonhard Euler

Talk:Leonhard_Euler#Removing_Charles_Murray.27s_Human_Accomplishment: talk page discussion

• Shakespeare's reputation

Note that the diffs provided above are not meant to be an exhaustive list of all topical edits.

Comments by ResidentAnthropologist

I too like Captian Occam have been observing the MathSci/Miradre. MathSci is quite open about tracking Mirandre's edits to the encyclopedia. Miradre seems to spew their POV in any article they can think of. Examine the Scenarios Occam Pointed out, where Mirandre attempts this to continue their own POV pushing here:

• Academia (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) Implicitly by suggesting that "Liberals" are in control of Academia and that they all in a massive "group think." (Thus the mainstream consensus is wrong on R&I) and does the same thing to Academia (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views).
• NPR (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) and Template:Public broadcasting are other great examples of continuing "Liberal Vs Conservative" war consistent with far right thinking by attempting to suggest their harmful.
• Social anthropology (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) and Cultural Anthropology (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) pages are extension of promoting the heredterian POV. The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 00:44, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Comment by Captain Occam

I should start off by mentioning that although I’m topic banned from R&I, my topic ban makes an exception for AE, based on this request for clarification in which ArbCom determined that topic bans are not intended to prevent editors from opening or posting in AE threads. In the AE thread where my topic ban was expanded, the suggestion that I not participate in AE threads related to the R&I topic area is listed as "not compulsory". This exception is based on the linked request for clarification: "The latest clarification request may have carved out AE requests as a special case, but I see no justification to expand that exception further."

I’ve been paying attention to this issue involving Mathsci and Miradre because of an e-mail Mathsci sent me on June 30th, threatening me with some of the behavior that he’s directing at Miradre if I attempt to appeal my topic ban. (On June 30th I’d had no contact with Mathsci in the past several months—the only context of him e-mailing me was that I was discussing the possibility of appealing my topic ban with Newyorkbrad.) The last time I had to endure the full extent of this from Mathsci was sometime in February, so I’ve been watching his interaction with Miradre to get an idea of how he currently acts towards people whom he regards as his adversaries. What I’ve seen isn’t encouraging.

I am aware of five examples of Mathsci following to Miradre to articles he had never edited before in order to revert Miradre’s edits. In all five examples, literally the first involvement Mathsci ever had in these articles was reverting edits by Miradre.

1. Academia
2. Groupthink
3. NPR
4. Public Broadcasting
5. Cultural Anthropology

That’s only the articles in which Mathsci’s absolute first edit to both the article and its talk page was reverting Miradre. If one also includes articles where his first involvement was opposing changes from Miradre without reverting him outright, there are three additional examples: The Blank Slate, in which the first edit Mathsci ever made was tagging content that Miradre added as being non-neutral, as well as Leonhard Euler and Democracy Now!, in which Mathsci’s first-ever participation was to oppose Miradre’s edits on the talk page. The edits that Mathsci opposes from Miradre are on topics as diverse as the possible over-representation of liberals in academia, a book by the psychologist Steven Pinker, and public radio broadcasting. The only common theme to these edits is that regardless of where Miradre goes on Misplaced Pages, or what sorts of articles he edits, he can always count on Mathsci following him there and opposing him.

There are a few other ways that I think Mathsci’s behavior towards Miradre could be considered harassment:

• Mathsci’s habit of restoring his posts in Miradre’s user talk when Miradre attempts to remove them. For example , , or . (Note the threatening edit summary in the last diff.)
• In addition to that edit summary, there have been a few other examples of Mathsci trying to intimidate Miradre by threatening him with a community ban, such as and .
• This isn't the only example of Mathsci being uncivil towards Miradre, but it might be the best one:
• As I understand it, this last exchange (“Please respect my privacy”, and Mathsci’s reaction) is referring to another type of harassment that Mathsci has directed at Miradre, which is publicly posting what he thinks is Miradre’s off-wiki identity and where he thinks Miradre lives. The DeviantArt account that Mathsci claims belongs to Miradre lists its owner’s real name on its main page, so this is an indirect way that Mathsci has revealed what he thinks is Miradre’s real name.
• Mathsci has also continued to bring up Miradre’s alleged location in subsequent content disputes, even though Miradre has never voluntarily disclosed this information.

Does it require any explanation what’s wrong with this? Anybody who’s been a Wikipedian for as long as Mathsci must be aware that it isn’t acceptable to try and intimidate another editor by posting private information about them, and that the request “please respect my privacy” from that editor should be responded to with something other than “Ha, ha, ha, ha.” More importantly, Mathsci has already been sanctioned for behavior that’s similar to this. I think in the past year I’ve improved on the behavior for which I was sanctioned in the R&I case (edit warring, etc.) but when I compare Mathsci’s behavior over the past month to the behavior described in his finding of fact, I don’t see any improvement.

---

I don’t have a strong opinion one way or another about the quality of Miradre’s editing, so the purpose of this post isn’t to defend him. However, I think that Mathsci’s recent behavior is problematic enough that admins should consider the application of WP:BOOMERANG here. Perhaps the most appropriate response to this thread would be for Miradre and Mathsci to both be sanctioned.

I’m aware that in the past Mathsci has been a valuable editor because of his useful contributions to articles about math and classical music. However, according to his comment here, as of the beginning of this year Mathsci has lost interest in making contributions to articles. Looking at all of his recent contributions, his exclusive focus now is on pursuing the editors that he regards as his adversaries. This is after several arbitrators already told him here that he should cease his involvement in the R&I topic area. Quoting what Roger Davies said to Mathsci there: “I expressed the hope in the motion lifting the topic restriction that you'd walk away entirely from R&I-related issues. This is because I do not believe that participants in cases are the best people to push for enforcement as it only opens old wounds (as has happened here). If another editor's conduct is egregious enough, it will be noted by other - less involved - editors, who can initiate appropriate action. That advice still stands and I urge you to follow it.”

I should reiterate what my reason is for caring about this: even though Mathsci has mostly left me alone since his attempt to get me site-banned in February, his e-mail to me on June 30th makes it as clear as possible that this is only a temporary respite from him until I attempt to appeal my topic ban. Therefore, it is almost certain that in the future I’ll once again have to put up with the behavior he’s currently directing at Miradre, unless something is done to stop it. It would be beneficial to the community if Mathsci could somehow be encouraged to stop defying the instructions he was given by Roger Davies, and go back to making useful edits on math and music articles. I don’t have a strong opinion about how that should be accomplished, but I think admins should consider the suggestion that Ludwigs2 made in the amendment thread linked above: that Mathsci be placed under a restriction that disallows him from commenting on the behavior of other editors.

Update 8/16: Can any admins see the edit summary in this diff? This edit summary was the most recent example of outing from Mathsci, but it’s apparently been oversighted now. I saw what the edit summary said before it got overisghted, but I’m assuming that I shouldn’t repeat it here, because the whole point of content being oversighted is to make it not visible anymore. If any admins can access this edit summary, I think it’s Mathsci’s most blatant policy violation in this thread—although the fact that it’s been oversighted probably makes that obvious, since oversight isn’t used for run-of-the-mill personal attacks.

Response to EdJohnston

It was a request for clarification, not a formal motion, and it's here. In other words, an actual modification wasn’t necessy, because ArbCom decided that my topic ban hadn’t been intended to extend to AE in the first place. When Ferahgo’s and my topic bans were extended by you and Timothy Canens in this thread, the extension made a specific exception for AE because of this request for clarification. The instruction to not post about others’ behavior at AE was listed under the heading “The following is advice, and it is not compulsory”. The diff of where you included this exception is here. --Captain Occam (talk) 23:05, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Additional comments

As I said above, I don’t have a strong opinion one way or another about the quality of Miradre’s content editing, and it may be that there are some legitimate POV problems with it. However, it’s important to understand that this isn’t just an issue of Mathsci following Miradre from one article to another. What makes this a problem is that it’s being combined with other types of behavior that can also be considered harassment, such as restoring his deleted comments in Miradre’s user talk, trying to intimidate Miradre by posting as personal information about him, and responding with incivility when Miradre asks Mathsci to respect his privacy. These are the specific things that cause Mathsci’s behavior to rise to the level of what I consider harassment, although it certainly makes it worse that there doesn’t appear to be anywhere on Wikipeda that Miradre can go to escape from this.

I'm kind of amazed by how often I see the attitude that some other editors are displaying here, which I think is best summarized as “Incivility and attempted outing are okay when the editor doing them is right about content.” Is there a policy that says this that I don’t know about? --Captain Occam (talk) 14:44, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Comment by Slrubenstein

I won't comments specifically on the R&I arbitration. However, I have yet to see Mirardre make a well-researched NPOV contribution to an article. I do not think Mirardre fits the bill of "single-purpose editor" but she is one step away. At the Race and Intelligence article, it turned out that the most persistent arguments that blacks are inherently inferior to whites in intelligence came from people promoting evolutionary psychology, which took Mirardre to EP articles. Then it emerged that one of the established academic disciplines most critical of EP is anthropology, which took Mirardre to Anthropology articles. I just spent the past few days undoing Mirardre's tendentious edits to various anthropology articles (in short: Mirardre found one journal article that had a comment to it that encouraged dialogue between anthropology between EP and anthropology. On the basis of this comment alone, EP added a whole new section to each article on the importance of EP within anthropology. Do I have to tell you how many peer-review articles are published on anthropology each year? Imagine if, for each article, we created a new section in the encyclopedia article! And Mirardre was not even drawing on the article, but on a comment to an article. Note: academics do not list such comments on their CVs because they are not peer-reviewed (whether Mirardre doesn't know this fact or knows it but disregards it, either way it suggests she is not qualified to edit on academic topics. I deleted the addition because it gave undue weight to a fringe view, and from an inappropriate source.

The really troubling thing is this: the article itself was an interesting article on the nature-culture divide, and was accompanied by several comments. I pointed out to Miradre that there are a number of other articles on this theme, and that she could draw on these different articles and write a very informative and appropriate section on emerging new approaches to nature-culture in anthropology. I was trying to take Mirardre's edit, and make a good-faith effort to consider what kind of work would lead to a genuinely positive edit, and give Mirardre constructive feedback. Mirardre just changed topics.

Mirardre then went on to argu that a whole chapter of a current textbook on cultural anthropology is about EP. Again, my concern was, how to turn a source into an imporovement to our article, and I asked Mirardre to summarize the chapter. Mirardre became evasive, and refused to discuss the contents of the chapter, insisting that the important point is that there is a whole chapter.Well, it turns out that is just a lie. MathSci took the time to verify Mirardre's claim and discovered that there is no such chapter. Then Maunus found the textbook, read it, and discovered that the textbook "describes EP as a discipline that 'impinges on cultural anthropology.'"

From this, we can see the following:

• Mirardre does not have the reading comprehension level of a college student (the audeicne for the textbook)
• Mirardre misrepresents sources in order to promote Mirardre's views
• Mirardre gets upset when other editors actually know more than her

I admit that this discussion on the surface is not about race and intelligence, but if you go back to the attempted mediation at R&I by Ludwigs, and subsequent arguments there, anthropology was consistently deprecated by advocates of EP in scholarly debates over race and intelligence.

A final comment on MathSci, whose editing has been impugned. It is true that MathScie has written a great many articles for WP, all impeccably sourced and well-written. It is true that he does not write as many new articles any more. I do not either. That is because my job requires m to write articles for which I will get credit, and WP does not count. I cannot speak for MathSci but I think a minimum requirement for an editor of an encyclopedia is the ability to comprehend that volunteer editors have more pressing and time-consuming obligations that mean they contribute erratically. We must judge MathSci not by the frequency of his edits by by their quality. I just went into some detail about an exchange on a talk page because this is the kind of contribution Captain Occam deprecates. Yet here we see that MathSci's contribution was exemplary and in fact just the kind of talk page contribution WP depends if it is to exist: Matchsci provided the evidence that Mirardre lied about there being a whole chapter on EP; MathSci provided the evidence that Mirardre was violating WEIGHT; along with Maunus MathSci demonstrated that Mirardre misrepresented the source. Were Mirardre left to her own devices we would have articles with lots of sources - but the articles would be poorly written, misrepresent the sources, even lie about them, and misrepresent scholarly debates. I have tried to work collaboratively with Mirardre and Mirardre has shown no interest in real research. Until Mirardre is banned, someone will have to check every source she cites, and correct her mistakes. This is a takes MathSci has assumed. He (and Maunus) deserves our praise and thanks for this Slrubenstein | Talk 09:59, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Comment by Itsmejudith

I don't have much time to edit right now, but would just like to say in reference to comments above that Maunus and SlRubenstein are real experts in social science topics, while Miradre, as far as I can see actually is working like an SPA. His/her level of English is poor too, so when s/he adds large amounts of content, other people have to clean up afterwards. There seems to be a lack of understanding of how to summarise from academic texts, as opposed to direct quoting. Itsmejudith (talk) 14:26, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Comment by Maunus

I would like to say that given Miradre's past and current behavior it is fully justified, indeed necessarry that editors who are aware of his history review his edits to almost any page that he might edit. He is clearly agenda driven in the large majority of his edits - wikipedia cannot afford to let that go unsupervised. There is a difference between hounding and actually watching out for potential content problems based on documented experience with certain editors editing patterns. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 01:07, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Comment by AndyTheGrump

I'd like to second Maunus's comments. I'm not going to suggest that any of us can ever approach Misplaced Pages with a truly neutral POV (I don't believe that such a thing exists), but I think that Miradre not only edits in such a way at to push a particular POV beyond any acceptable limits, but that also, from the evidence offered, actually goes out of his/her way to find ways to do so, knowing that this will provoke a response. Frankly, I see no way that this attitude can be seen as compatible with Misplaced Pages's objectives. If Miradre wishes to change public opinion, and/or the opinions of academia regarding issues of race, heredity, and related issues, fine - that is his/her right - just not here, and not in the belligerent manner exhibited. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:50, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

I see that Miradre writes above: "Currently one focus for me is improving Misplaced Pages's articles on evolutionary psychology subjects which also include the application in anthropology. That is a sensitive subject for some anthropologists who reject evolutionary psychology". Given that almost all anthropologists 'reject evolutionary psychology' (or does Miradre have evidence to the contrary?), such 'improvements' are nothing of the kind - they are instead attempts to apply undue weight to theories of little relevance to the topic in question. This is further evidence of Miradre's endless POV pushing and general combative attitude. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:26, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

And now Miradre responds by claiming to have 'cited evidence' in Talk:Cultural anthropology regarding the significance of evolutionary psychology to the subject. Fine. Except that the 'evidence' turned out to be almost entirely based on misrepresentation of the sources - again proving precisely the point I made. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:57, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

"Slrubenstein is another anthropologist ideologically opposed to evolutionary psychology". And yet again, Miradre insinuates that any attempt to point out that the overwhelming consensus within cultural/social anthropology is that evolutionary psychology is of limited significance to the subject is based on 'ideology' - a highly dubious proposition, entirely lacking evidence. Anyone remotely familiar with the often-heated discourse within social/cultural anthropology will find the proposition that there is a common ideology laughable. Still, insinuations of bias are easy to make, and have the advantage that you don't have to offer evidence. Not directly related to this AR/E discussion, of course, except in that it may indicate why any topic ban is going to fail as long as Miradre persists with this battleground mentality and endless search for new articles to promote an ideologically motivated (yeah, I can do it too...) biological determinist perspective in subjects where such perspectives are fringe, if not entirely irrelevant.AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:11, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

And a response to Memills (below): are you going to offer any evidence to back up your suggestions that those commenting here have 'another agenda', or are you just going to leave it hanging, like the vacuous insinuation it is? AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:17, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

And while Memills is at it, what the heck is an 'anti-biological POV'? AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:16, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Comment by Memills

The concept of a "construct" has a long history in science, long before Gould. Nor is it limited to studies of intelligence; the term "construct" is used in many, if not most, areas of science. See the relevant WP article: constructs. That several editors above think that it only applies to intelligence is rather shocking. Rather, given the very strong anti-biological POVs of these editors, I suspect another agenda.

The editors criticizing Miradre fail to note that there was previous discussion on the Talk page about moving the "reification fallacy" subsection, as well as other sections, and was initiated by several other editors (not Miradre), (see here and here). The rationale for the move was that many of the criticisms of evolutionary psychology are actually more germane to the nature vs. nurture page than to evolutionary psychology in particular. The editors above who label evolutionary psychology as "genetic determinism," and/or who suggest that editors who are trying to accurately describe evolutionary psychology are "promoting" it, betray a strong anti-biological POV.

The attempt to associate moving the "reification fallacy" subsection with the topic of intelligence (to snag Miradre) is a red herring. It seems to me to be a POV-motivated attempt to harass and silence an editor with whom they philosophically disagree. Memills (talk) 05:36, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Comment by Boothello

It's a shame that more uninvolved people haven't shown up to offer their opinion on Miradre's editing. So far everyone criticizing him seem to be R&I regulars who followed him to other topics after he was topic banned (well, except for Itsmejudith who was recruited by Mathsci specifically to oppose Miradre ). We could get a clearer picture about whether Miradre's editing has been a problem if some of the editors active on other articles he edits (like, from the looks of it, psychology and public broadcasting etc) would post, instead of just the core group of editors who have historically opposed him on R&I and then followed him elsewhere.

For the record, I think there are some issues with Miradre's editing. The biggest one I've seen is his long, circular, and often off-topic arguments with other editors (Mathsci in particular) on talk pages. See a recent typical example of this here. This began as a question of whether Memills has a COI by commenting here as Mathsci claimed and then removed. This quickly devolved into an argument about whether it was a personal attack when Mathsci said that Miradre's arguments "are like those of a small child." Two uninvolved editors, Olyeller21 and Atama, complained there about how Miradre and Mathsci tend to waste other editors' time with this endless bickering.

I think Mathsci is more at fault here than Miradre. In my own experience I've seen that it is possible to resolve content disputes with Miradre, it just takes some effort and patience. On the other hand I've found that reasoned discussion with Mathsci is often impossible. Mathsci does not comment on the talk pages of R&I articles, apparently because he has promised ArbCom not to, so whenever he disagrees with one of my edits he responds with threats and accusations in my user talk.

• Some examples of Mathsci accusing me of colluding with other editors: Note his comment "This strategy of tracking a single editor is ill-advised" yet he has no problem doing the same thing to Miradre.

• Some examples of Mathsci commenting to threaten me with sanctions:

• Some examples of Mathsci continuing to comment in my user talk after I asked him to stop:

Two things worth noting here. First is the sheer quantity of this: nearly half of all revisions to my talk page are from Mathsci. Secondly, this is literally the entirety of my interaction with him. Never have I interacted with him on talk pages or articles, I have no prior history with him, and did not even know who he was until he started threatening me in my user talk. Based on my experience and observation, Mathsci has virtually no interest in collaborative discussions about content. When he disagrees with anyone's edits, he generally just resorts to belittlement, accusations, and threats.Boothello (talk) 06:51, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Comments on disruption of this request by ipsocks of Mikemikev

Result concerning Miradre

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

• I hope that User:Captain Occam can supply a diff to the place where Arbcom modified his ban to allow him to comment at Arbitration Enforcement in R&I requests where his own edits have not been mentioned. This Arbcom action would, I assume, have been a formal motion. Lacking such evidence, I urge him to cease commenting here. The only edits being reviewed in this AE are those of Miradre and possibly Mathsci. (Mathsci's own edits are subject to review since he is the submitter). EdJohnston (talk) 22:46, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

OK, per the Captain's response, I agree that his previous topic ban allows him to comment at AE. Should the admins here decide that his posts are not helpful, they might comment on that or take action on that when this report closes. EdJohnston (talk) 23:26, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Jonchapple

Russavia

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Russavia

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Martin Tammsalu (talk) 07:38, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Russavia (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Russavia-Biophys/Proposed_decision#Russavia_restricted

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. 22:05, 12 August 2011 Russavia's reverts my earlier edit.

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

Sanctioned previously twice before for violating interaction ban: blocked for 2 days and blocked for 4 days

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Reverting edits is a violation of an interaction ban per WP:IBAN, note the same policy allows asking an administrator to take action against a violation of an interaction ban by the other party, see WP:IBAN#Exceptions_to_limited_bans and as affirmed by a subsequent clarification request to Arbcom. I don't know why Russavia feels he has to inject himself into this particular article Karen Drambjan, but his arrival is disruptive to my further involvement in this article as we are under a mutual interaction ban. In this case I am requesting that an admin undo the violating edit so that my further involvement in this article is not compromised.

• Reply to Petri Krohn. Whether or not the article belongs in Category:Far-left politics is a content issue. You had ample opportunity to revert this edit yourself if you disagree and we could have discussed this on the article talk page. However with Russavia's revert I can not be involved in the subsequent discussion on talk due to the mutual interaction ban, and thus this disruptive. --Martin Tammsalu (talk) 11:32, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Notified

Discussion concerning Russavia

Statement by Russavia

It is plain to see that Tammsalu is attempting to use an interaction ban in such a way that he is able to assume ownership of articles. It has already been made clear to this particular EEMLer that merely editing the same article is not an interaction. Refer to Tammsalu's own request for clarification from the committee at this link.

Moreso, Tammsalu's attempt to fling enough shit in the hope that some of it will stick is disruptive and furtherment of the battleground for which he was banned from EE topics, and also furtherment of harrassment of myself by him. Refer to Misplaced Pages:EEML#Improper_coordination, in which the committee found that certain editors engage in vexatious reporting (of which this is), and have also engaged in harrassment of particular editors (of which this is), and also found that particular editors have displayed battleground mentality (which this very request is). One can also review Misplaced Pages:EEML#Martintg where the committee found that Martintg (now known as Tammsalu) has abused the dispute resolution process (which this report is) and also found that he harbours a battleground mentality (again, which this very report is).

Why have I edited on the article? Because it is clearly within my scope of interest, plus it has been in the news (albeit very briefly). I don't have to explain why I edit any article I may edit, but that is the reason. But have I interacted with Tammsalu? NO, I have not.

I am making it very clear here, that if WP:BOOMERANG does not come back to Tammsalu in this case, I will be taking this to Arbcom directly for their intervention, because it is clear that Tammsalu is being disruptive and engaging in battleground behaviour. I am asking that Tammsalu be sanctioned for his artificial battleground creation, with the warning that if there is another such case that I will ask for him to be topic banned for battleground behaviour.

This is also not the first violation of the mutual interaction ban by Tammsalu, so any block should take this into account. One would also have to ask Tammsalu why if they have grown tired of the battleground bullshit (as per their talk page), they have clearly created one here knowing his own history and history of clarification from Arbcom?

I will offer to Tammsalu the same offer that I have in past, drop this frivolous complaint with an apology for even bringing it here, otherwise I will ask that sanctions be placed on Tammsalu for both breaching his mutual interaction ban and for creating yet another EE battleground. --Russavia 08:01, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Request

Can I please request that no action or decisions be made at this request until this coming Thursday, 12pm (that is +8GMT) as I am currently on the road, and it is almost impossible to edit WP from my mobile phone. I request this as I further comments on the request, but mainly in relation to suggestions and the like. It would be unfair to reach any decisions in this request without input from myself, so I am asking that this request be respected. There is no major rush as there is no ongoing problems which require immediate intervention. Thanks, Russavia 00:55, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning Russavia

Comment by Petri Krohn

Tammsalu/Martin did not create this article, I did. As far as I am concerned, Russavia is welcome to contribute. However I am not at all happy to see Tammsalu editing the article. I try to keep a distance from him and avoid editing or even reading anything he is involved with. I only hope he would extend the same courtesy to me. This time I thought we would see the exception – agree on the content of an article and cooperate, albeit with minimal interaction. This enforcement request once again proves me wrong.

I see absolutely no way the article on Karen Drambjan should be included in the category Category:Far-left politics. I thank Russavia for removing the misplaced category. I cannot see anything in the article history or article talk pages that I would describe as interaction. If Tammsalu cannot agree, I ask him to first explain why he believes the article should be in this category. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 11:09, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Karen Drambjan is an article on a current event--an gunman attack with international media coverage. It seems a little weird to allow only your friends to edit "your" article. Drambjan is described by Sky News as "a member of the marginal left-wing United Left Party. The party is not in parliament and until recently claimed legal succession to Estonia's Soviet-era Communist Party." Misplaced Pages's article on Far-left politics says in the lead: "This generally includes anarchists, communists and revolutionary socialists."FuFoFuEd (talk) 12:30, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

The issue is not about whether Karen Drambjan is in the general topic of left-wing politics, that we all agree on. The edit in question was about inclusion of the article in the category. If you bother to have a look you will well see that the category is a top level category, not a place to dump individual politicians. I have no objection to the article being in some subcategory.

As the the question of WP:OWN, I am not stating ownership. I am saying that to my understanding I and Tammsalu have been following a voluntary mutual interaction ban. When entering into my editing domain he should follow the utmost courtesy. If he cannot accept this arrangement, then an administrator or ArbCom enforced interaction ban becomes the only option. As for this WP:AE request: it is clear indication of a WP:BATTLEground mentality. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 13:00, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

"I and Tammsalu have been following a voluntary mutual interaction ban" Ok, I didn't know that. The interpersonal politics in Misplaced Pages still largely elude me. Tammsalu seems to have a long term interest in (and knowledge of) Estonian topics, as do you. It's not very hard to discern you two don't agree on political issues though. FuFoFuEd (talk) 13:21, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

It is news to me that Petri Krohn and I have been following a voluntary mutual interaction ban. The only reason we haven't interacted in the last year or so was that he has not edited any Estonian topics. I don't see any problem with our interaction in the Karen Drambjan article. --Martin Tammsalu (talk) 21:51, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Comment by uninvolved Collect

This shows a fundamental problem with interaction bans - I see no problem with Martin bringing this action here, moreover. WRT the claim that a person is not "far left" I consider the statement in the article that a person is "left-wing" and quotes him as saying : He calls Estonia a morally bankrupt neo-Fascist county is quite likely sufficient for the characterisation, and should be discussed with all interested parties. I suggest therefore that the 'interaction ban" has been shown to have an unintended consequence which should be examined carefully, with the possible resolution that Martin be allowed to engage in careful and civil discourse on the article talk page, and Russavia also be allowed the same careful and civil discourse on the article talk page, with any admin noting any lack of carefulness and civility and who has no prior involvement in the case be allowed to block either party as he or she sees fit. It is clear, however, that the revert is a technical violation of the interaction ban as written, and Russavia should be given a yellow card. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:14, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Result concerning Russavia

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

• I'm so far not quite convinced that Russavia's edit was intended as a revert of Tammsalu's edit - which is prohibited by the interaction ban - as opposed to an edit made in the normal course of editing. In other words, I'm not seeing evidence that Russavia knew that Tammsalu is the one who added the category or is willfully blind to that fact. With that having been said, it might be appropriate to prohibit, per WP:DIGWUREN#Discretionary sanctions, these two users from editing the same article, since it is apparently that the standard interaction ban didn't really solve the problem. T. Canens (talk) 16:02, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by DIREKTOR

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found in this 2010 ArbCom motion. According to that motion, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user

DIREKTOR (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – --DIREKTOR 23:24, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Sanction being appealed

Topic ban from "all Balkans articles and talkpages, broadly construed, for 6 months"
imposed at User talk:DIREKTOR#ARBMAC
logged at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Macedonia#January 2011 –

Administrator imposing the sanction

Fainites (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator

Statement by DIREKTOR

User:Fainites has imposed sanctions in pretty obvious violation of WP:INVOLVED for the purposes of POV-pushing on two separate talkpages. The user has imposed a six-month topic ban, broadly construed, which incorporates all subjects I edit (to all effects and purposes an effective six-month block) on the basis of WP:ARBMAC, while engaged in two disputes with myself. The user is fully involved in two content discussions with me, is opposed to my position in both, and will directly benefit from my ban in that his preferred position in the two disputes will now go through without any opposition whatsoever. Diffs follow on the user's involvement in the two talkpages. The disputes are long and complex, so please accept my apologies for the length of the disclosure.

• Talk:Draža Mihailović, an absolutely huge discussion and dispute lasting well over a year now, with Fainites as a full participant for several months - almost always in opposition to whatever I may advocate. I will list here only a few of the most recent examples (the rest are available for review at Talk:Draža Mihailović and the archives thereof).
  • For most current (and for Fainites probably the most significant) example, on Talk:Draža Mihailović/ethnic conflict drafts you will find two proposals: "1st Proposal" by User:Nuujin (yes the very same Nuujinn lobbying to get me banned), which is currently actively supported by Fainites; and the "2nd proposal", which is supported by myself. User:Fainites and I were in active opposition on this content issue at the time of the ban. Please note that the direct result of the sanction is that opposition to the "1st Proposal" draft is now effectively pushed out of the way, and the text version preferred by Fainites is marked for inclusion in the article.
  • For another example one may review the exchange between Fainites and myself on August 2, three days before the ban on August 5, in this section of Talk:Draža Mihailović, this post in particular, an excerpt of which I will post as an example

This is the brief version of examples for the first dispute between Fainites and myself that he has so elegantly "resolved" just now. Again, a quick read through the talkpage will show the user is in fact completely involved in the dispute, and opposes my position therein.

• Talk:Serbia under German occupation is the second talkpage. I will only be posting a few examples, as copying over the whole months-long discussion would not be productive, and its available for review on the talkpage.
  • . Here, in one of the more obvious examples, Fainites argues against the map label I introduced ("NGS"), supporting another one, and argues for using the term "puppet state" in the article (which I oppose). Its interesting to see him later protest "I don't argue for or against anyone" , after having been arguing for days :).
  • Here Fainites' very nicely describes his opinion. This is my post where, after days of discussion, having agreed on an article lead, I protest Fainites entering his own, completely undiscussed version of the lead. And this is Fainites' completely unwarranted hostile response, where he judges I've apparently been "insulting everyone" and that I should "learn" something from him. This is hostility by way of lies and slander, plain and simple. He has stricken that remark after a while, but its effect is unmistakeable: I am the villain. User:PANONIAN, who posted things like "any intelligent discussion with you is obviously impossible. Anyway, consider your bullishness temporary. Your attitude will very soon get you blocked for good and then I will revert you" , is apparently the victim. This ban is the second time Fainites has ignored the hostility of others, and only condemned and sanctioned me.
  • Here is Fainites, for another example, pushing for the lead version preferred by User:No such user ("NSU" in the text), proceeding, it seems, to make fun of my language: "Schhliivvvovisshhishishish" I assume would be how Fainites pronounces "Slivovitz".
  • The text of this section, is an example that does not require a detailed read-thru of the whole dispute. Here you will find Fainites proposing content edits, arguing for the implementation of this version or that, and in the end implementing a new lead version of his own writing. Also understanding full well (as he would admit later), that his edit goes against what I've been proposing (I won't go into details), and directly supports what I've been opposing.

Please note these are by no means the only cases depicting the WP:INVOLVEMENT of User:Fainites in the relevant content disputes, only a few of the more obvious examples are listed. The user is fully involved in the disputes in general (just like all other users), and the entire talkpages could be listed here for review to that effect. The full text of the disputes is of course available on Talk:Draža Mihailović, Talk:Draža Mihailović/ethnic conflict drafts, and Talk:Serbia under German occupation. I do earnestly believe however, that this is more than enough, and that even fewer of these quotes should suffice.

P.S. I will note that this issue was brought-up on ANI, essentially by mistake, as this is an issue of misuse of an WP:ARBCOM decision. There, as an uninvolved observer noted rather colourfully , the discussion was effectively swamped by hostile comments (complete with false accusations of sockpuppetry ) on the part of half-a-dozen involved users, all of which involved users who support Fainites' position on the two talkpages, and oppose my own. No doubt there will be attempts to label this appeal "resolved", in spite of having been posted in the wrong place, in spite of the lobbying by the group that supports the same edits as Fainites, and frankly, in spite of quite overwhelming evidence of a breach of WP:INVOLVED. When I was advised at last to bring this up here in the proper venue, I did so immediately. The comment was also made there that "WP:INVOLVED is the most commonly broken policy by admins" . --DIREKTOR 23:24, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Addendum. I'll add (as I had on ANI), that I perceive the behaviour of Fainites as deliberately hostile and a form of hounding. I had, in fact, previously been the only party in a dispute to receive sanctions by Fainites in the form of a month-long "topic ban on the Balkans, broadly construed" (on the basis of WP:ARBMAC ) on April 9, while engaged in a discussion with me on Talk:Yugoslav Front. On April 2, for example, Fainites can be found posting things like this on the talkpage, arguing against an RM I was proposing there at the time (in accordance with extensive Google testing). In fact, for several weeks at that time, the user was involved in various discussions on Talk:Yugoslav Front, arguing, proposing content changes, and on numerous other talkpages in heated discussion on content issues with myself (see for example here, an excerpt from Talk:Croats). (As a side note, in spite of my pointing out numerous times, conclusively and with diffs, that the other party in the dispute did his absolute best to provoke a conflict, these objections were ignored by Fainites.)

At the time I essentially accepted the one-month ban without major opposition, as an admin's decision and one to be respected. However, since then I've begun to perceive something of the larger picture. Every major discussion I've been involved in included Fainites (since I met him some eight months ago). It became impossible to get involved into a discussion without Fainites arriving sooner or later, and assuming the role of self-appointed "arbitrator" of who's right and who's wrong. And sure enough, in every issue of every discussion for the past six months, I cannot remember a single discussion or dispute I've had, where Fainites was not present and where he did not oppose my position, whatever it might be. As you might imagine, its very hard to participate on Misplaced Pages when you've got an admin inevitably appearing every time and throwing his weight against you in every single disagreement that might come-up. The atmosphere eventually created by this pattern of behaviour, in my perception at least, was that of mistrust, frustration, and hostility. --DIREKTOR 03:37, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

@In response to Fainites ANI post below, I must say I believe I've shown in the examples above that Fainites certainly did not restrict himself to "sourcing issues". That frankly seems to me a custom-contrived argument only for the first example I've brought up. In the example of this thread alone, Fainites has proposed two versions of the article lede , and in the end implemented his own version in the article, without agreement from all parties, and against my position (throughout the discussion the pivotal issue was the usage of the term "puppet state"). However, while I do believe these are not particularly honest statements on the part of Fainites, even if that were not the case, in my impression the policy does not leave room for interpretations of this sort: "Involvement is generally construed very broadly by the community, to include current or past conflicts with an editor (or editors), and disputes on topics, regardless of the nature, age, or outcome of the dispute."

To me it certainly seems that Fainites has, at least to an extent, assumed the role of "Headmaster" (as he puts it) of the Balkans disputes (one assumes the participants are the "errant children"). Under the pretext of a form of "self-proclaimed mediation", and "following the sources" he arrives at disputes and effectively renders his judgement on the content issues and users involved. If someone disagrees with his position on resolving a problem of a source conflict, for example, one continues to do so at one's own peril: he is threatened and sanctioned by means of WP:ARBMAC. --DIREKTOR 11:15, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

@FuFoFuEd. Regarding Karchmar, I have never, never mind you, proposed that the source should be excluded from the article (that was the position of User:PRODUCER). User:Fainites, whether deliberately or no, continuously acted as if that were the case. All I have suggested, and still do, is that in light of he fact that numerous historians contradict and/or do not include one particular speculative allegation of Lucien Karchmar, he should simply be attributed to this allegation in the text. That is all. As far as I'm concerned, Karchmar has to be considered a reliable source by Misplaced Pages policy. User:Fainites, and frankly User:Sunray as well, seemed (deliberately or no) to misunderstand my posts, and threatened me with WP:ARBMAC sanctions on my talkpage : "I view your continued dispute of use of Karchmar as a source here... as disruptive". If I posted a blog, I did so to support my statement that the user source has a negative reputation in some parts of the Balkans, as I said here "I certainly don't expect anyone to take my word or his "reputation" as a reason to disregard him as a source".

I've been around on Wiki for just under 5 years, I have some 35,000 edits overall, next year I hope to graduate from medical school and I have participated in the publication of a paper - I do know something of sourcing one's claim. (Concerning source misuses, I just don't do that. And I don't think I've ever done it.) --DIREKTOR 11:32, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Re new post by Fainites

In all honestly, I do not see the relevance of Fainites' post with regard to WP:INVOLVED. It is a very thorough elaboration on Fainites' perception of the events, I certainly disagree with most of the allegations and the user's interpretations of many of the events described, and I could post another massive point-by-point reply describing my own view of the events, and where I believe Fainites has presented them with his commentaries in a biased way - but I do not see how any of this relates to the appeal.

I would also like participants here to note that I will be physically unable to post on Misplaced Pages from tomorrow onward, as I am going on a prolonged holiday away from home. --DIREKTOR 16:57, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

DIREKTOR, really, you seem to have independent opinions in your favor of overturning this ban, WP:STICK as your continued point by point counter to any and all criticism only bolsters the charges against you. --WGFinley (talk) 01:12, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Statement by Fainites

Here is the relevent ANI thread at which a number of editors of varying degrees of involvment expressed their views.

Link to list of articles which I complied given DIREKTORs original allegations, showing which Balkans articles I have edited in.

For ease of reference, my posts from ANI on issue of "involved" giving my position on this issue

response to specific allegations of DIREKTOR

Response to DIREKTORs "Part 1" allegations. Sorry it’s a bit long. You can avoid reading this by reading the whole of the talkpages.

• Serbia under German occupation. Naming disputes have been ongoing since long before I came along. It's been on my watchlist since the previous-but-one dispute (Nedic's regime to Nedic's Serbia). Apologies to readers but you need to read the talkpage from here. One side says whatever it was the Germans created in old Serbian lands when they carved up Yugoslavia was called "Serbia". The other says it wasn't but should be named after either the German Military Administration or the Quisling government, the "Government of National Salvation" or equivalent. Anything else, like” puppet state” or even the name "Serbia" implies it was a proper country or state which is nationalist propaganda. Other editors proposed various solutions. I made a variety of suggestions, some of which DIREKTOR liked and some of which he didn't. I was trying to help find one acceptable to everybody. Panonian produced sources describing it as a "puppet state", "rump state" etc. DIREKTOR dismissed this as "quote fishing". I checked PANONIANs sources - they were all pretty mainstream books by well known authors. I looked to see what the sources I had in my possession said and posted those. I repeatedly asked DIREKTOR to produce sources on his vehemently expressed claims. This went on and on. Readers can decide for themselves what they think of the tone of the exchanges. I was not arguing for "puppet state" but pointing out the sources produced said "puppet", "rump", "satellite" state and asking for any sources demonstrating DIREKTORs version. I restarted the discussion several times to refocus things after bad-tempered, repetitive exchanges between editors. Eventually the matter was resolved here when DIREKTOR agreed the current title.
• The slivovitz bit came when I congratulated everybody on achieving consensus on this long running and vexed issue and posted a picture of bottles of slivovitz here. I thought it was all over! Within a few hours it was apparent that there was no agreement as I had thought - the same dispute was on-running - though now based round the label on the map and the lead sentence. That's why I said "more slivvovovvishhishs anyone". Then I asked for my slivovitz back. The ensuing argument appeared to be resolved here when I posted a fuller definition of "puppet state" as it occurred to me that a basic misunderstanding of the fact that a puppet state is not a proper state, may be the source of the problem. I said “Hooray!” because I thought that now it was understood that “puppet state” meant it was ‘’not’’ a proper state, there would no longer be any problem in reconciling DIREKTORs arguments that the article should not pretend there was a real, independent state, with all the sources describing it as a puppet state. In fact though, the dispute carried on regarding labels in maps and infoboxes and over whether all the sources, when they said “puppet state” had really meant to say “puppet government”. DIREKTOR remained adamant that the territory should be described as the Government of National Salvation on maps and in infoboxes and so on, which was not agreed by other editors, and for which no examples or sources, apart from one inconclusive page very late, were produced to support DIREKTORS various strongly worded assertions.
• Regarding the article lead, I posted on the talkpage here approximately 5 different versions for a lead sentence, which were discussed by other editors, trying to find a version on which all could agree, including DIREKTOR, using words like "territory" and "administrative area" to avoid contentious flash points whilst maintaining accuracy. DIREKTOR entered my first version. Presumably he approved of it. Unfortunately he also made wholesale changes in the infobox which were issues that were the subject of the dispute, leading to a revert exchange with PANONIAN until I protected the page. (It had been agreed on the talkpage that editors would sort the lead and ‘’then’’ tackle the infobox issues). I edited just the lead to reflect what I understood was agreed on the talkpage, copy edited the rest of the lead. DIREKTOR disagreed with it. I still don’t know why. However, it was always plain that I did not care which version they used – as long as it had consensus and wasn’t going to lead to edit warring. The exchange with DIREKTOR which I struck was based on my misreading of his post. I thought he said "...playing the understand game..." which implies bad faith, hence my post. He protested and when I read it again I saw I had misread it so I struck my comment and apologised. The believe the current lead is the one of my suggestions that DIREKTOR approved of most.
• The map business is quite complicated. DIREKTOR asked me on my talkpage to intervene saying another editor had changed the long-standing consensus version (from "Government of National Salvation" to "Serbia - under German occupation"). I took this complaint at face value and started a map discussion here. I expressed some concern about calling it the "GNS" or “NGS” because that particular regime did not cover the whole relevent period. DIREKTOR was still arguing that there was no such place as “Serbia”. PANONIAN then made some long complicated posts on the maps. After checking it out on Commons, it appeared PANONIAN had created the map in 2010 on commons, setting out his sources including about 8 linked source maps and 12 other sources. In the 8 available on the internet the territory is either called nothing or "Serbia" with various second line qualifiers like "under German occupation" or "German military authority". PANONIAN also produced a scan of the Times Historical Atlas map (used as a source). DIREKTOR had, without consulting PANONIAN, on 4th June, changed the colouring and the name of the territory from "Serbia under German occupation" to "Government of National Salvation", though his record of change only states ‘’ Rm borders and margin + entered a new color scheme’’. This was shortly before the current round of naming disputes – though the issues are much the same as previous rounds. PANONIAN changed it back. DIREKTOR then copied the map and all the sources and created a new map showing his chosen description. This however, is not supported by any of the 9 source maps I saw. WhiteWriter changed it back, DIREKTOR reverted. There was a rather aggressive exchange on the commons talkpage between DIREKTOR, PANONIAN and WhiteWriter. DIREKTOR replaced PANONIANs map with his in the article. He did the same to PANONIANs other map on 31st July. This latter occurred right in the middle of the on-going naming dispute on this very point on the article talkpage. In the circumstances, calling his map the "consensus version" on my talkpage when asking me to intervene and revert to his version was somewhat disingenuous. Following resolution of the naming of the article to "Serbia under German occupation", WhiteWriter, presumably believing the issue was now resolved, (wrongly as it turned out), had taken DIREKTORs version, copied it, changing it back to "Serbia under German occupation". This was what DIREKTOR was objecting to.
• All have to say on Draza Mihailovic is – read the talkpages, particularly the Karchmar dispute here. Yes it often seems bad-tempered and a bit personal, but everybody has been arguing the same or similar issues for ever on and off. The sourcing issues are typical. If DIREKTOR has sources to illustrate his assertions - fine. Produce them! Then people have something concrete to discuss instead of endless unsourced arguing which frequently becomes offensive. I actually spent a long time myself hunting on the net and in books for any mention of Karchmar, whatever it said. This current process seemed to me like a last effort to get to grips with Mihailovic, followed hopefully by other WWII and Chetnik related articles. The process does require that apparently agenda pushing, tendentious, filibustering editors are pinned down on issues of sourcing. If they are not actually agenda pushing, tendentious and filibustering editors, no doubt they will have sources to support their assertions. I do not personally care whether Mihailovic was pursuing a pre-war agenda to create Greater Serbia or was an incompetent who lacked the cojones to control his lieutenants. I do however, care that the articles should present the most accurate and well sourced version of history that they can and not a revisionist version of whichever side is the most aggressive, persistent, numerous or skilled at gaming the system.

Regarding DIREKTORs characterisation of this as a content dispute with everybody else as a group pushing a particular version of content, this is nonsense, but the editors concerned, particularly Sunray the mediator, and Nuujinn, and some others, answered themselves at ANI.Fainites scribs 13:33, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Re Karchmar/content

I don't think anybody was suggesting that Karchmar either be excluded or should "outrank" any other decent source. As you can see my concern was that having said Karchmar, Nuujinn, is a biased source and has been discredited on several separate occasions in Balkans discussions (and not by myself I'll add). The author is a Serb nationalist, an emigre I believe, who adopts a very slanted view on Balkans history., quite an extreme statement, DIREKTOR failed to evidence it but argued about at great length, seeming to expect editors would take his statement at face value. This sort of thing was why the mediator got the mediation participants to agree to sourced assertions only on the talkpage, to avoid the usual TLDR offensive nationaist exchanges so common on these pages and which effectively stall them. I can see FuFoFuEd's point though about subsequently expressing an opinion on how the sources should be represented. I accept that appears to be a step to far. I do not however, think it is being "involved" to insist on editors sourcing their bold assertions in highly contentious areas.

Nuujinn produced the Kitroeff review in that discussion here FuFoFuEd. It was the only review produced. A number of historians specifically mention his work and quotes were added to the quotation page. The point is - DIREKTOR produced nothing in support of his claim that Karchmar was a discredited Serbian nationalist. Nor was his description of earlier exchanges on talkpages about Karchmar accurate as I hunted those out too to see if there were any other references to reviews.

Regarding the discussion on revisionist sources - this was actually a bit off topic. Someone had the brilliant idea of setting up a quotes subpage as editors trading rival quotes tend to make the talkpages very complicated. It also meant that if a quote was being "cherry-picked" or used out of context, the rest of the quote could be added. This could be a very useful resource for a whole range of articles. I added a bit from MacDonald about revisionist histories in the area. The subsequent discussion between me and DIREKTOR is really just chatting about Tudjman and the diaspora Croats and so on and me summarising bits of MacDonald for him. They're not my opinions - they're MacDonalds. I hadn't thought of this exchange as particularly germane. Presumably neither did DIREKTOR think the quote was germane hence his query as to why I put it on the quotes page.

As I said, I can see FuFoFuEd's point about expressing an opinion on how the sources should be represented in that last comment on Draza M. I can also see the point about puttng a case together for AE. Of course, had it not been for ArbMac this wouldn't have arisen in this way. I think one of the problems is - I didn't go into this to ban and block editors. I went in to help moderate and focus discussions to enable source based collaborative editing. Neither did I go in with any views on any of it and I still don't have any now really. I did occasionally issue short blocks for edit warring but mostly I would protect the page for a short period and get people to discuss instead. It was only over the course of several months that it gradually became apparent to me that long-term disruption, OWN and TEND by DIREKTOR was one of the biggest problems in the area. Hence the 1 month topic ban followed by this one.

Statement by Sunray

My interaction with Direktor has been restricted to two forums: 1) The Draza Mihailovic mediation, which is privileged, currently on hold, and, in any case, unrelated to this Arbitration Enforcement appeal, and 2) A moderated discussion at Talk:Draža Mihailović which is related to the WP:ARBMAC Topic Ban and AE appeal. While Direktor has argued that I am in dispute with him, I do not regard this as accurate. However, in the course of the moderated discussion, I did have occasion to caution and warn him, as I did other participants. These warnings may be relevant to the topic ban, and I am willing to present some information on that, as needed. However, the topic at hand is whether or not Fainites is an "involved administrator" according to WP:INVOLVED. I will address the two issues separately, below.

Was Fainites "involved" per policy

The policy sets out two interrelated criteria to determine whether an administrator is involved:

Two interrelated criteria are set out in the policy to determine whether an administrator is involved:

1. “ ... current or past conflicts with an editor and disputes on topics...”
2. " ... ...has interacted with an editor ‘’purely in an administrative role... is ‘‘not’’ involved...”

Having gone through the diffs that Direktor has provided, I must say that, according to my reading of the policy, he has not demonstrated that Fainites ‘’is’’ an “involved” administrator. Direktor repeatedly states that “Fainites argues...” (“against the map label...” “for using the term ‘puppet state,’” etc., etc. It is certainly true that Fainites does get into content. However, it is a complex dispute, involving technical details regarding sources. If one looks at the diffs provided in context one sees that Fainites is, in fact, moderating. For example, looking at Direktor's first diff this diff in context, one sees Fainites doing the following:

• Presents an alternative
• Cautions Panonian (note that Panonian is in dispute with Direktor); asks for further comment
• Asks Direktor to elaborate on a source; cautions him about "disruptive or unwarranted" comments
• Gets agreement of participants ; his efforts are recognized by a relatively uninvolved editor
• Several days later, protects page
• Cautions Panonian
• Secures Direktor's agreement

It seems clear to me that Fainites is carrying out a relatively neutral balancing act--and trying very hard to assist editors in coming to agreements in this volatile Balkans topic area. I don’t see him disputing with anyone. However, I’m not going to beat a dead horse. No doubt Fainites sails close to the wind at times and several administrators have indicated that they do think that he was involved. I will comment on the validity of the topic ban separately. Sunray (talk) 23:25, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Examples of violations of WP:ARBMAC by DIREKTOR

The following pertains to repeated violations of WP Behavioural Policies and disruptive editing by DIREKTOR on the Draža Mihailović talk page and related subpages since returning, on May 8, 2011, from a one month topic ban by Fainites.

For just over one year, until April 27, 2011, Direktor was a participant in the Draza Mihailovic mediation. The mediation resulted in a redraft of the Mihailovic article. The mediation is privileged and I am bound to make no comment on it. However, further discussion (open to all editors) on issues of "collaboration" and "ethnic conflict" continued on the article talk page, moderated by me. Since that time, Director has engaged in personal attacks and ad hominem, repeatedly disputed and denigrated other editors and has tendentiously refused to cease discussions. A summary follows:

Personal attacks, personalizing discussion, ad hominem (WP:NPA, WP:CIV)

• 9 June 2011 - Personal attack directed at FkpCascais, calling him "... a POV-pusher of the most obvious sort. . I requested that this be removed and Direktor complied.
• 14 June 2011 - Personal attack directed at FkpCascais: "You have 'no idea' about the course of this war and are not really equipped to discuss it." Removed by me.
• 15 July 2011 - Warning about personal attacks given to Direktor: "Nuujinn has requested that you remove recent personal attacks. I am concerned about the tone of this post (third paragraph), and this, which I regard as a personal attack directed at Nuujinn. You also state: "And should you proceed with it regardless I reserve the right to list all historians I can find that make no mention of Karchmar's theories." This kind of threat is contrary to our terms of discussion and both it and the attack demonstrably violate WP:ARBMAC. Consider this a warning. I suggest that you remove the paragraph in question, apologize to Nuujinn and move on. The discussion had been proceeding well until this, I hope that you will continue in a more positive and constructive vein. Sunray (talk) 22:15, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

I have removed these remarks as I regard them as a violation of the Terms of Discussion (#3 & #6). Sunray (talk) 16:30, 18 July 2011 (UTC)"

• 4 August 2011 - Warned about "Non-productive remarks" denigrating other participants.

Disruptiveness, tendentiousness (WP:DISRUPT, WP:POINT)

• Terms of Discussion proposed by me on 15 June . Direktor immediately objects to this , continuing for several days , despite the agreement of other participants.
• Finally, at the urging of Fainites, agrees to abide by the terms on 19 June .
• Director then argues about discussing the issue of collaboration and is told by Fainites that he is being disruptive . He disputes this
• Continues to dispute issues relating to the terms with me
• Disputes Nuujinn
• Disputes Fainites (23 June - Direktor has dominated the discussion for over a week.
• The Terms of Discussion, proposed by Nuujinn and Paul Siebert were adopted and posted on 29 June.
• Despite the foregoing, Direktor continues to flout and dispute the Terms of Discussion
• Direktor is warned about his disruptiveness . Disputes this tendentiously (etc., etc.)

My conclusion is that, whether or not Fainites was "involved," (and I reiterate that I do think he was carrying out an administrative role, and was, therefore, not involved), there is more than adequate evidence to support a six-month topic ban. Sunray (talk) 00:03, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Statement by Nuujinn

First, a question, is it appropriate for me to comment on DIREKTOR's actions here, or it this discussion focussed on Fainites's level of involvement only?

I don't feel I have the experience to judge what you all would regard as an inappropriate ban given Fainites's level of involvement, but I will say that I believe Fainites has acted consistently in good faith, has been level headed throughout difficult discussions, and has been an enormous aid in the discussions. I would be happy to answer any questions if anyone cares to ask me anything, I'm just not sure what my role in this particular venue is. --Nuujinn (talk) 01:18, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by DIREKTOR

Statement by Volunteer Marek

• Support appeal. I am 100% uninvolved here and I followed this a bit when it was at ANI (though due to being busy didn't get a chance to comment there). Basically, DIREKTOR is exactly correct: the topic ban was instituted by an administrator involved up to his/her ears in these disputes, Fainites, and as such is 100% illegitimate. In fact I should strike that "support appeal" at the beginning of this paragraph and simply say "there's no need for an appeal because the topic ban is obviously not legitimate, hence there's really nothing to be appeal" - DIREKTOR should simply ignore this faux-sanction. But since we like our bureaucratic procedures on Misplaced Pages I guess making it an official appeal makes sense

Now, it might very well be the case that DIREKTOR engaged in behavior which would merit a topic ban. I'm not that familiar with the topic area or his edits there - my sense is that there were some hi-jinks involved but I'm not convinced that they rise to the level of seriousness of a 6 month topic ban. However that is completely irrelevant. You just can't have involved administrators sanctioning users in order to win content disputes. That kind of behavior is grossly unfair, disruptive and against Misplaced Pages policy (in fact, Fainities probably deserves some kind of sanction for this). If tolerated and permitted, it sets a chilling and dangerous precedent.

So the topic ban on DIREKTOR should be vacated and Fainities should be at least warned. If a truly uninvolved admin then finds fault with DIREKTOR's edits then they are of course free to reinstate the topic ban (sort of like it's fine to post on behalf of banned users, provided you assume personal responsibility for the edits). In fact, later, after this is closed, and DIREKTOR recommences editing in the topic area Fainities would of course be in his right to bring his concerns to AE (which is what s/he should've done here). However I would wait for this kind of reconsideration until and if a new issue arises, since sanctions are meant to be preventive not punitive.

Ok, in case that was tl;dr, let me repeat: The topic ban on DIREKTOR should be vacated and Fainities should be at least warned.

Volunteer Marek (talk) 01:36, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

I think Fainities statement on this page is itself pretty solid proof that he is indeed involved in these disputes.

As a response to Sunray I think that whether someone is "moderating" a discussion or "taking sides" (and then enforcing their side with blocks) is a very fine line, and one which is best not even approached. Again, opens up the door to abuse.

I'd also like to remind everyone that AE is not a place to rehash content disputes.

Volunteer Marek (talk) 18:21, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Response to F^3Ed

I think Volunteer Marek is being too acerbic here. - watch it buddy, I've seen AE reports filed for less. Volunteer Marek (talk) 23:53, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

I didn't (and still don't) want to get into a detailed polemic with you, but I think your hint to DIREKTOR that he should simply ignore an admin imposed ban in a situation like this is not sound advice. FuFoFuEd (talk) 13:59, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

• Sunray, seriously, this isn't the page to rehash content battles from mainspace pages, or to engage in ban-shopping. The only question of interest is whether or not Fainities was involved or not, and it's pretty obvious he was. More stuff like this and in my opinion a boomerang for creating battlegrounds may be warranted. Volunteer Marek (talk) 00:09, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Statement by FuFoFuEd

I think Volunteer Marek is being too acerbic here. By all appearances, Fainites is well-meaning in protecting the integrity of Misplaced Pages as he states (as opposed to advancing some nationalist POV agenda). I have no doubt that the area is "rife with relentless POV pushers", as Fainites says, and that when faced with two nationalist camps, which both are likely to "cherry pick" only sources/passages that suit their POV, it is hard to establish WP:CONSENSUS by just surveying what that kind of editors say on Misplaced Pages. Fainites' diligence in checking the sources himself, both for accuracy and sufficient context is quite commendable. However, extensive participation in forming consensus about the reliability of sources in non-straightforward cases like potentially biased historians, and opining in content issues, e.g. what is a good overview of some topic, constitutes content involvement.

I've spent some times looking though AE archives trying to find some how-to-proceed-properly in a case like this. It seems to me that Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive93#QuackGuru is a good example of filling a case against a persistent POV pusher who misused sources. I'm not making a comparison between QuackGuru and DIREKTOR. What I am saying here, is that it would have been far better form for Fainites, whom through his extensive talk page participation had intimate knowledge of DIREKTOR's statements, to have assembled a list of what he saw as source misuses, and a list of (alleged) WP:IDHT threads by DIREKTOR, and to have submitted them to the attention of others (WP:AE or ARBCOM) admins having no shade of content involvement. It's quite human to see someone repeating a point you disagree with as over-the-top disruptive, even though uninvolved observers may just see it as "Misplaced Pages as usual". I've done it myself not so long ago, LOL. FuFoFuEd (talk) 10:21, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Content observation

As for the spat over Lucien Krachmar's authority as a historian, I agree that DIREKTOR made some unsupported statements (blogs notwithstanding) and they were even potentially BLP-violating. However, some of Krachmar's conclusions have been received coldly or outright rejected by other historians/reviewers and his work is seen as more sympathetic to the Chetniks than other accounts. So, it depends which statements one wants to include, and how they are balanced against other views. There is no such thing as absolute reliability or unreliability in these matters. Nor can one find a completely unbiased historian. (One can find an even more sympathetic account published in the same period by the Hoover Institution ) Take care, FuFoFuEd (talk) 11:39, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

That first diff wasn't operable, FuFoFuEd. Would you be able to try it again? Sunray (talk) 17:39, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Which one? And by the way, replying to your comments in the admin section: I don't see a WP:MODERATOR policy. FuFoFuEd (talk) 18:19, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

The first diff (all I get is an abstract). What is an administrator's role, in your view? Sunray (talk) 18:34, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

They have a pdf linked on that page if you look carefully. For me it was free. It's from the Journal of the Hellenic diaspora, Volume 15 (1988). FuFoFuEd (talk) 22:00, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Yes, it's the Kitroeff review that we used in reviewing Karchmar. I don't really agree with FuFoFuEd's conclusion referenced to the review, but I imagine that this is not the venue for discussion of that particular issue. --Nuujinn (talk) 23:48, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Hmm, I think we do agree. At least I agree with you when you wrote "The dogged refusal to simply document a divergence in academic sources is not helpful" in this thread: . But it seems to me that User:PRODUCER was more at fault there than User:DIREKTOR, who at least inched away from his initial hardline position. At some point--17:48, 14 July 2011 (UTC)--both you and DIREKTOR agreed to WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV, but somehow there was still an argument between you two, I'm not sure exactly about what. Then PRODUCER started making broad negative (and incorrect in my view) statements around 21:25, 15 July 2011 (UTC). FuFoFuEd (talk) 13:27, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

I think enough editors have interacted with DIREKTOR that they can make a request here for a ban if that's what they desire, but he doesn't seem to be the worst offender in that discussion, nor does he appear incorrigible to me, although it would surely help if DIREKTOR just plain admitted when he made an erroneous statement because the lack of that simple gesture surely fueled the flack he kept taking, which (in my opinion) needlessly inflamed the situation and prevented a quick resolution. It all depends on whether that kind of discussion happens often enough to waste a lot of others time. YMMV as they say. I've certainly wasted enough of mine just reading that page. FuFoFuEd (talk) 13:27, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Result of the appeal by DIREKTOR

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• I am tentatively of the view that Fainites is an involved administrator and the ban should be lifted. While ARBMAC has no specific provision governing administrator involvement (therefore WP:INVOLVED applies), the involvement provisions in other discretionary sanctions cases are instructive. Many arbcom decisions provides that "an administrator will be considered "uninvolved" if he or she has not previously participated in any content disputes on articles in the area of conflict." (e.g., WP:ARBAA2#Discretionary sanctions, WP:ARBPIA#Uninvolved administrators, WP:ARBSCI#Uninvolved administrators); others provide a narrower formulation, that "an administrator will be considered "uninvolved" if he or she is not engaged in a current, direct, personal conflict on the topic with the user receiving sanctions." (e.g., WP:DIGWUREN#Discretionary sanctions, WP:ARBPS#Discretionary sanctions). WP:ARBCC#Involved administrators specifies that "an administrator will be considered involved if: (i) they have participated in an editorial dispute with the editor or (ii) have had significant personal interaction with the editor or with other editors with whom that editor is in dispute, (iii) in an editorial capacity, they have participated in a content dispute affecting the article or related articles within the broader topic".

  Even on the narrowest involvement provision, I don't see how this can be characterized as anything but a "current, direct, personal conflict on the topic" - and even if it can, it is beyond doubt that Fainites "participated in content dispute on articles in the area of conflict". It is immaterial whether Fainites edits the article as well or just participates in talk page discussions. Unless their edits are purely in an administrative capacity - and it is plain that they are not - they should not be imposing sanctions in this topic area. T. Canens (talk) 01:57, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

• Today's word of the day is brevity, why this can't be boiled down to a few key points is beyond me. I agree with T. Canens, it appears to me that Fainites has been drawn into the content dispute and this ban, while quite possibly merited, should be withdrawn. If you are going to mediate disputes you can't get into the kind of exchange that T. Canens cited. --WGFinley (talk) 18:48, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
  • However, his continued replies on this topic are only bolstering the charge of tendentious editing in a topic subject to sanctions and while Fainites may have been involved it doesn't mean he was wrong. --WGFinley (talk) 01:09, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
• Overturn ban. Fainites was involved. Firstly, and most significantly, Fainites is clearly and quite significantly involved in the topic area in an editorial capacity. Secondly, Fainites has had direct editorial conflicts with Direktor. This isn't even a close call. --Mkativerata (talk) 19:21, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
• Per WOTD: I find that Fainites was involved, but the ban was merited. I suggest that Fainites be reminded not to take action when involved, but that the ban not be overturned. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 19:23, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Suggestion For Closing

After looking at all the comments here I would suggest the following to close this:

1. Fainites was involved and as such should not have banned DIREKTOR, the ban is revoked.
2. Fainites is commended for attempting to mediate disputes on WP:ARBMAC articles but should realize such mediation can make one involved with other editors and/or the dispute. Notice on AN/I or this board could have been taken so an uninvolved admin could review the dispute.
3. DIREKTOR is cautioned that while this ban may have been improper it wasn't necessarily unjustified, he needs to avoid tendentious editing especially in the WP:ARBMAC space.

Suppport as submitter. --WGFinley (talk) 01:36, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

• I think we can close this just with point 1. I don't like "commended" and similar things that doesn't really have any effect, and if the ANI thread that preceded this request is any indication, we don't really want to direct people to ANI either. As to point 3, it doesn't say anything useful in the absence of a finding that D. was acting either appropriately or inappropriately. If D. did not act inappropriately, then a caution is entirely unwarranted; conversely, if D. has acted inappropriately, then a sanction, and not a mere caution, would be in order. However, this thread is a poor basis upon which to make a definitive determination either way, since too much of it is focused on Fainites, so I prefer that we simply say that the ban is overturned as it was imposed by an involved admin, leaving DIREKTOR's conduct for another thread. T. Canens (talk) 02:39, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

I hear where you are coming from and normally I would agree but I have serious concerns about DIREKTOR taking this as "vindication" for his behavior. Having these three findings makes things clear for the parties going forward. After looking at all the conversation here and on the numerous diffs provided there's no doubt in my mind some type of ban is warranted, it shouldn't have been Fainites who did it. Also, I would hate to see Fainites driven from the topic by one simple incident. --WGFinley (talk) 03:07, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

As I am leaving for the island of Brač tomorrow, I will be physically unable to participate in any discussion that might arise in the next several weeks. I cannot extend my participation beyond today without incurring serious financial loss, in fact this is likely my last post for weeks. I fear I may not be able to defend myself against any accusations, and unfair representation of my conduct, should at attempt be made to exploit my absence in such a way. Apologies for posting here, --DIREKTOR 03:21, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't think anyone would consider it appropriate to make final decisions on an AE application like that whilst you were still away.Fainites scribs 13:52, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

• Agree with T.Canens: I would support #1, that the ban should be lifted, and I don't see the present need for #2 or #3. The understanding is that a new request for a topic ban could be made here at AE, if someone wants to request one. Agree with T.Canens that if warnings or sanctions are ultimately decided against DIREKTOR we need to make a definite finding as to what behaviors warranted the action. I sympathize with Fainites' motivations. EdJohnston (talk) 04:09, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Question

OK, fair enough re the above, ie getting drawn into content and the banning DIREKTOR myself. But has anybody got any more advice on where the borders are in general? I mean - on the basis that it wasn't OK to express an opinion on "which version", was it OK to post five different versions of a lead sentence until one which everybody agreed was found? Was it OK to post the results of the sources I found? Is it OK to protect the page for a few days and try and get editors to restart a discussion? Regarding sources, presumably it's OK to act if someone specifically mis-cites a source, but what about failure to source assertions? Was it OK to keep requesting that they do? I mean this in the context of being an admin. I have no interest in actually editing content and thus becoming involved in the neverending nationalist POV pushing but I would be interested in contnuing to try and mediate/moderate discussions to enable normal, collaborative editing if possible. Fainites scribs 13:20, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

To keep this thread from veering into new areas, you should probably take that discussion to your own talk page. EdJohnston (talk) 17:14, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Fine - as long as you guys follow it. I'll move it there now.Fainites scribs 17:46, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Jaakobou

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Jaakobou

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

nableezy - 06:41, 6 August 2011 (UTC) 06:41, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Jaakobou (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:ARBPIA#Discretionary sanctions

• Interaction ban

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. Date See below

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

1. Notified of interaction ban by by Timotheus Canens (talk · contribs)
2. Asked to be more careful in minding the ban following a prior infraction by 2over0 (talk · contribs)

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

In the above diff, Jaakobou refers to me as either an editor (or activist) with a "similar perspective" of a "self-professed anti-Zionist". He does by providing an "example" of said self-professed anti-Zionist "adorning" me with a barnstar, linking to this diff in his statement. I dont appreciate the sly coaching in of "activist" by a user for whom I have yet to actually give a critique of their worth in any public forum. As such, I request that the interaction ban be enforced. How it is I leave up to you, though I ask that you consider, taking in to account both the long term and short term activity of this editor, whether or not there would be any tangible loss if the user were banned from the topic area. Looking at his recent contributions, I cant imagine that there would be any loss at all.

I have unarchived this section as it was never closed. If a user is free to disregard an interaction ban then so be it, but yall at least need to say that. nableezy - 19:38, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Notified

Discussion concerning Jaakobou

Statement by Jaakobou

It wasn't clear to me how to illustrate that RolandR gives awards to editors who agree with some of his perspectives but this was needed to be clarified as reasoning for RolandR's politically motivated loss of ability to read Hebrew or distinguish that there are 3 wiki-reliable sources saying the same thing (on Ezra Nawi). I used the first two clear examples I found (awards to someone denied use of anti-Israeli content on his user page, and another to someone banned a 3rd time in 2010 for adding 'occupation' to Israeli localities), though I am sure others exist -- though, perhaps not as clear. The second link is to an award handed to an editor with whom I share an interaction ban. This ban was imposed after a lot of drama -- we both called each other 'disingenuous' and similar -- on 22:05, 29 November 2010 (UTC) and I have followed it for the past year with diligence (one accident, which I immediately tried to correct has occurred in a time span of 10 months). This prompted a complaint, but I believe that the link, which is intended to discuss RolandR's political motivation, should be allowed to be posted on AE. It is of a similar level of IBAN gray territory to that of allowing someone to post a complaint about a fellow IBAN editor. I am, actually, quite pleased with the no-interaction imposition since it saves me a LOT of grief and mucking about politically motivated distractions, tag-team mentality and other nothings and I prefer that I do not share the same editing space where possible. If there is a consensus among admins that the link to RolandR's activity in an AE complaint about RolandR is not in the gray/allowed area and that posting it should not be allowed at all costs, I will quickly retract, but it seems to me pertinent to illustrate RolandR's state-of-mind when he misled EdJohnson into a good faith revert (of 3 reliable sources) and page protection.
p.s. apologies to everyone involved for this drama. I have no intention of causing any and will follow by removing the link -- and avoid anything similar in the future -- if there is a consensus that it is improper -- or "sly coaching". Jaakobou 10:19, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

As a show of good faith, while the link poses a gray area which called up this distraction and drama, I'd rather not have it up and have removed it.
I'd rather avoid any IBAN issues even if it seems like a proper link. With respect, Jaakobou 10:57, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning Jaakobou

Comment by a Biosketch

Jaakobou (talk · contribs) should strike out the words he wrote in parentheses, and this AE should thereafter be closed per moot point.—Biosketch (talk) 09:23, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Comment by Volunteer Marek

...Annnnndddddd this is about as perfect illustration as you're gonna get of the fact that AE doesn't put out fires in troublesome areas but instead serves as the can that holds the gasoline that is poured on these fires by various involved editors. I'll be frank and here and state my personal belief that we should simply get rid of AE since it causes way much trouble than it solves...

...but since we're here. At first I thought that this was just more bullshit whining and spurious reportin' by people in this topic area. However, it does seem that Jaakobou did indeed indirectly but purposefully, refer to Nableezy in the terms stated, by including this diff in his statement above. Strictly speaking he is not calling Nableezy himself all those things, he's just saying he has a "similar perspective" (to someone who is all these *bad* things), with a link to a bunch of comments by Nableezy. That looks like a pretty intentional violation of the interaction ban, edit conflict or not.

Short block (since this is a first time interaction ban violation), 24 hrs or so (12 if yer feeling nice), as a slap upside the head, to remind the user to observe the interaction ban and don't try and get sneaky with interaction ban violations would probably be in order. Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:16, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

• Keep. Immensely amusing to read. FuFoFuEd (talk) 09:31, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
• LOL Yeah, ARBPIA3. Too many requests here based on the topic area. I blame the admins as much as the editors but I did say a bit ago that this was going to happen.(edit: btw, I made this comment before seeing all of the parties involved. It as in no way a violation of the interaction ban but meant to be a comment on the multiple threads I am watching based on other editors I check in on.)Cptnono (talk) 05:37, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Result concerning Jaakobou

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.