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talk:Wikiethics - Misplaced Pages

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Rgulerdem (talk | contribs) at 03:39, 21 March 2006 (stop reverting without discussson). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Revision as of 03:39, 21 March 2006 by Rgulerdem (talk | contribs) (stop reverting without discussson)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)

Please vote in this proposal's APPROVAL POLL:

I think we need to clarify the editorial standards and ethics in Misplaced Pages. Understanding the Wiki policies coherently is also aimed in this project. I hope it gives a general overview of the policies, their place in the whole picture and their relations to the Wiki ethics and standards. It would be good if it leads to a policy. Resid Gulerdem 00:43, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

FOR NEWCOMERS - HOW DO WE DISCUSS HERE - PLEASE READ

Please review the arguments on the related pages (maybe quickly) to see if any questions you have, answered before. For the efficiency of the discussion, we modify the project as outlines below:

  • copy the part from the proposal onto the discussion page or subpages: Sections or Arguments
  • express your ideas why you think it is not appropriate
  • give your suggestion to fix the problem, propose your version

If your suggestions get approval from the editors then it can be updated accordingly.

There are two subpages: Arguments and Sections. On the Sections page, we discuss the sections starting from the beginning. Please do not start a new section discussion if the current one did not get a consensus. If you want to start an argument discussion, please do so on the Arguments page.

Resid Gulerdem 00:39, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

/Archive 1, March 20, 06

/archived poll

/Arguments

/Sections

APPROVAL POLL

I think the build time for this has been going on more than long enough and now is the time to get a consensus as to whether this should be approved or not. This is not a majority poll since polls are evil and Wikjipedia runs by consensus. Pegasus1138 ---- 00:22, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Begin: 00:22, 17 March 2006

End: 00:22, 31 March 2006

Support

This is the users 6th contribution to Misplaced Pages. All edits within context of this article. KimvdLinde 04:03, 18 March 2006 (UTC) User blocked indef as sockpuppet, vote invalid. KimvdLinde 04:46, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
He is not a sockpuppet. Resid
Convince the admins first, after that, I will undo my own edits. KimvdLinde 06:36, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Forget it! Resid
WP:CIVILKimvdLinde 06:50, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Was it rude? Sorry... I did not mean to be rude, anyways. RG
  • Support I am missing ethical values resp. moral commitment among many editors. Raphael1 12:10, 19 March 2006 (UT

Oppose

  • Pegasus1138 ---- 00:22, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Working on this policy has been a POV nightmare since the beginning. Almost nothing in this policy reflects anything other than the ethical stance of Resid Gulerdem who insists on ignoring discussion, ignoring consensus, ignoring precedent, and ignoring existing policies. Almost before anything else was inserted into the policy he had an "no pornography" clause. The rest of the policy was fleshed out around that theme. It's a fantasyland policy. ॐ Metta Bubble 01:08, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose, to many things in one policy, pro-censorship, vague ambigious language. KimvdLinde 06:02, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose. I really don't want to take a swing at this tar baby, but I think the best thing to do here is give this proposal a decent burial. -- Donald Albury 12:59, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose There are more than enough policies already. I object to parts of this one, but I don't want to have to haggle over them. What happens if a detailed guideline is amended and comes to contradict this one? Do the writers of other guidelines have to follow this even if there is a consensus to differ from it on the relevant page? Which takes priority? If any change has to go through two pages that will compound the existing inertia. Better to just kill this off. Misplaced Pages:Five pillars is the only summary of policy that is required, and it is mercifully free of liberal or conservative bias, unlike this proposal. Osomec 17:00, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Oppose. I am convinced that Resid's goal towards formulating this 'policy' is to gain the 'right' to block the display of the cartoons involved with the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy. If this policy were to ever come into effect one can be sure that the Jyllands cartoons would be the first victims of it's application. As a long time editor on that article I can share with others the fact that Resid previously labored hard and long via the talk pages in an attempt to have the cartoons censored in some way and in some cases he outright removed the cartoons himself (and was subsequently reverted) despite overwhelming editor support for their display. Please take note of Resid Gurlerdem's block log entries for and . Netscott 14:06, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose This is completely unlike anything I recall seeing under the banner of "ethics". All the best policies contain a clear set of justified principles that can be operationalised. Reading this policy gives no clear explanation of how such principles as are enunciated would be operationalised. That this talk page is so acrimonious is evidence enough that what is written as "policy" here is too controversial to be accepted by the majority of Wikipedians. David91 02:35, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
  • This is redundant with many existing policies, and it conflicts with them in many ways. Rhobite 05:23, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose - this is elliptical to the point of nonsense, and against Misplaced Pages spirit in many ways. — Catherine\ 06:32, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak Oppose The proposer of the policy/guideline has not acted in good faith and violated the very rules he proposed. There's little hope of this policy ever getting approve. Will switch over to neutral if someone else non-disruptive spearhead this project. --Jqiz 11:07, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
  • oppose Olicy would force editors to reveal their gender and thus breaks privicy policy.Geni 14:38, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose This proposed policy or guideline seems large, unnecessary and ill formed, with potentially a hidden agenda. Since a poll at this time seems premature, I say oppose, until and unless a coherent and ocncise proposal is put on the table. Elliptical to the point of nonsense indeed. ++Lar: t/c 15:12, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Oppose per the above. Also, this proposal just feels utterly alien to Misplaced Pages. Sandstein 15:21, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose We have enough guidelines already, and they're sensibly broad ("no personal attacks", "neutral point of view", "not censored for minors", etc). Now let's get back to writing an encyclopedia. --kingboyk 16:30, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose per Metta--Acebrock 17:58, 18 March 2006 (UTC)*
  • Oppose, this idea is too POV and too close to violating other wikipolicies to be a useful guideline.Gateman1997 20:24, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose, per Metta-Bubble. Azate 00:45, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose - instruction creep, not necessary - not widely supported Trödel 11:10, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose Guff. Mark 15:44, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Oppose We have NPOV, CIVIL, DBAD... Rich Farmbrough 16:52 19 March 2006 (UTC).

Comments

I disagree, it is as stable as it is ever going to be and it has built up more than enough to be mature enough for people to determine whether or not it should be approved or not. It's not like the version is locked in as soon as the poll starts either, during and/or after (assuming it gets a consensus to have it be a guideline) people can still add on and edit it. Pegasus1138 ---- 01:45, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
  • We, the contributing editors to this page, already decided to have the poll later, when the policy is mature. We already called for further input from other places. Resid Gulerdem 02:03, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
  • By We you claim to be refering to yourself and to me. This is completely outrageous. I said my piece but I never explicitly opposed pegasus' poll. Please stop policing this article with your POV. I actually voted in the poll. How could you possibly interpret that as meaning I think the poll is too early? Quit twisting my words to suit your agenda RG. ॐ Metta Bubble 04:30, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Unbelievable... Just check what you said below in the discussions, more than once... What you are doing is generally called lying. You use the word twisting repetedly. Apperantly you are very well experienced in that. Isn't Pegasus' poll is for aproval of the policy? What kind of polls you were against before? Resid Gulerdem 05:38, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Over the course of 3 days your obsessive POV editing (consensus opinion) completely turned around my hope of anyone else ever getting their opinion heard on this article. I made many comments on polls and my last one was "I am looking forward to this poll". For you to dig up quotes of mine that supported your POV you had to skim over my most recent comments and go back to earlier ones. I cannot begin fathom how blinded you must be to do this. And then you have the nerve to call me a liar for it? What are you trying to achieve? Are you trying to show how much of an unethical person you really are? ॐ Metta Bubble 06:03, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
  • I just would like to teach you the meaning of twisting on a clear example. It would be good if you can see whether you are an appropriate person to discuss ethical issues at all. Resid Gulerdem 06:10, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

I love how the creator of this proposed ethics guideline, which explicity calls for civility in Talk pages, is calling other people liars. User:Zoe| 07:18, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

START OVER

I have archived discussions and the poll. Please copy paste here if you think is necessary. If you still want to vote, you can do at the top of the page too. As polls indicated, either this project is not ready for voting, or it is not appropriate in this form. In any cases, we need to improve it. I proposed a new organization below. Resid Gulerdem 00:03, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to assume good faith that you didn't know that it was bad to archive an ongoing poll especially one where you are actively opposed to it's even existance. I have de-archived the poll. Pegasus1138 ---- 00:32, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
It is good that you assumed good faith. I already put a note that you can bring it back if you want to. I do not see any reason to keep it though. The result won't change. We need to go back to to the policy for an improvement. I would prefer the poll be archived. Resid Gulerdem 00:36, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Well Misplaced Pages is not a democracy and I'm sure that if before the 31st you can sufficently improve the proposal people will be open to changing their opinions. Pegasus1138 ---- 00:40, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Remember: assuming good faith is not just for once. Me and the other editors with ethic concerns will do it. Do not worry... Resid Gulerdem 00:50, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
I've unarchived the discussion. I'm open to discussing the merits of archiving this page. However, given the poll refers to the content of the page it seems relevant to people's decisions about voting. Quite a few seem to be voting on the basis that the policy creator has acted too unilaterally too often. ॐ Metta Bubble 01:09, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Do not start again reverting my edits. The comments section of the poll is already there. Archiving is a standard action. If people want to see them, they know where to look. Resid Gulerdem 03:39, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Arguments and Sections

I started two subpages for discussing the policy: Arguments and Sections. It might be good to seperate these two. I think we should discuss each section seperately one by one. After consensus on a modification, we can update the policy. Other overall ideas related to the policy can be discussed here. Please note that not only the critiques, but also your suggestions are very important. We are here to create a good source of information for both newcomers and also all editors. A possitive, constructive approach is necessary... No reason to rush! We can do it slowly but surely. Resid Gulerdem 00:15, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Please raise issues and make helpful suggestions on the individual policy pages: Misplaced Pages:What Misplaced Pages is not, Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view, etc. The consensus in the poll above clearly shows that this page conflicts with many existing policies. Rhobite 01:14, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

What happens next

What happens next is this proposed policy becomes a failed proposal and is categorized as such. Attempts to recreate this failed policy will be seen as an attempt to disrupt Misplaced Pages. Anyone who wishes to move on should create a subpage in their user space and work on their ideas until it does not resemble this failed policy proposal. THEN you can, in a non disruptive way, make a new attempt with a new and different proposal. What won't work is trying to resurrect this specific proposal if/when it fails. What won't work is immediately recreating this very same failed proposal. Just some good advice. WAS 4.250 01:54, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

There are two polls. First one already indicated that there is no need for a poll. Second one already says that, it is not approprite in this form. So, we need to improve it. Resid Gulerdem 03:27, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Well we don't know if it will have a consensus to become a guideline or it will fail until the poll closes on the 31st and I would strongly suggest against closing early since it would weaken the results but if it does fail then that is good advice. Pegasus1138 ---- 02:39, 21 March 2006 (UTC)