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This article needs to assume that professionals DISAGREE on this major issue. It currently basically assumes only one side.
This article is an example of why many teachers, profs distrust Misplaced Pages. The viewpoint is (mostly) that "professionals see little or no abortion-related mental health issues". However, one can find various professionals who disagree. (See some of the commentary in the discussion!!!).
Short conclusion: Misplaced Pages (in this and some other articles on HOT topics) is held CAPTIVE to whatever ideology the editors wish to promote.
How to cover this still-evolving controversial issue? Invite quality professional representatives for both major viewpoints to submit their findings.Lindisfarnelibrary (talk) 20:35, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
- What specifically do you dislike? That we state that the American Psychological Association concluded that termination of a first, unplanned pregnancy did not lead to an increased risk of mental health problems, but we don't mention other professional organizations who disagree? (do any exist)? Or that we state the existence of "post-abortion syndrome" is not recognized by any medical or psychological organization when that is not the case? I don't believe this article is one sided, but I do believe the article does not "teach the controversy" or provide both sides equally. This is due to WP:WEIGHT where we are supposed to give due weight to prominent views, and avoid undue weight to minority views. I think it's clear that major psychological organizations and review studies agree that abortion itself does not cause mental illness, while there are correlations demonstrated among other factors. All that said, I'd be interested in hearing what you think is inaccurate or too one-sided in this article specifically. And what you think should be changed. -Andrew c 22:42, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
- The problem is that absolutely no weight is given to minority views, and hence this article violates WP:NPOV. Geremia (talk) 06:32, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- I wonder what kind of "professionals" Lindisfarnelibrary is referring to. I doubt they are medical ones. This user also seems unaware of how Misplaced Pages works in terms of how information is included. (If only qualified professionals volunteered to do all the work!) Sounds like someone disgruntled that their personal belief is not prioritized here over near-100% medical consensus (and most physicians who question all the supporting data tend to have religious agendas).-- TyrS chatties 05:45, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
- It could just as easily be said that those denying it have pro-choice agendas. So what? Geremia (talk) 06:40, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
For future reference
- Steinberg JR, Finer LB (2010). "Examining the association of abortion history and current mental health: A reanalysis of the National Comorbidity Survey using a common-risk-factors model". Soc Sci Med. doi:10.1016/j.socscimed.2010.10.006. PMID 21122964.
{{cite journal}}
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ignored (help) - Charles VE, Polis CB, Sridhara SK, Blum RW (2008). "Abortion and long-term mental health outcomes: a systematic review of the evidence". Contraception. 78 (6): 436–50. doi:10.1016/j.contraception.2008.07.005. PMID 19014789.
{{cite journal}}
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ignored (help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link) - Steinberg JR, Russo NF (2009). "Evaluating research on abortion and mental health". Contraception. 80 (6): 500–3. doi:10.1016/j.contraception.2009.06.003. PMID 19913142.
{{cite journal}}
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ignored (help)
These should probably be incorporated into the article, if they aren't already. MastCell 04:06, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
This article is untrue.
This article biased to the point of being false and potentially harmful to society. It off-handedly invalidates the experiences of women who have had abortions and feel depressed or anxious as a result. At a basic, intuitive level, it makes sense that abortion is traumatic experience for some, if not most, women. The procedure is very painful, for one thing. For another, it's scary as hell. For another, the cultural stigma attached to abortion is deep-seated and guilt-inducing. If those aren't basic, trauma-inducing conditions--pain, fear, guilt--then at the very least, this article needs to acknowledge that the wide array of post-abortion care hotlines and support groups exists for a reason.
This article needs be rewritten completely or removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.233.121.152 (talk) 04:24, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
"Abortion and mental health disorders: evidence from a 30-year longitudinal study"
Attention: This template ({{cite doi}}) is deprecated. To cite the publication identified by doi:10.1192/bjp.bp.108.056499, please use {{cite journal}} (if it was published in a bona fide academic journal, otherwise {{cite report}} with |doi=10.1192/bjp.bp.108.056499
instead.
Here is a quick summary of the article: "In general, the results lead to a middle-of-the-road position that, for some women, abortion is likely to be a stressful and traumatic life event which places those exposed to it at modestly increased risk of a range of common mental health problems...Finally, the findings of this study have some important implications for the legal status of abortion in societies such as New Zealand and the UK, where over 90% of abortions are authorised on the grounds that proceeding with the pregnancy would pose a serious threat to the woman’s mental health."
Not sure if it was discussed in prior archives (quick scan indicates not). Interesting that it appears to contradict many of the other subjects on the matter. This is likely because of convenience sample bias (PMID 21268725; discussion section). But still, worth mentioning? NW (Talk) 13:56, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
- Hmmm. We do have a section devoted to Fergusson, but I think most of the action on this article pre-dated their 2008 publication. The NZ group has argued, both in the 2008 paper and the 2006 article we cite, that abortion has some element of mental-health risk. That position contradicts most expert-body syntheses of the literature, and as you note, methodological issues have been put forward to explain the discrepancy.
I think the whole article is ripe for a rewrite - the current approach of devoting entire sections to individual primary studies seems inappropriate, and the article could be better organized, more readable, and still cite primary sources such as Fergusson et al. to demonstrate various viewpoints on the issue. MastCell 16:59, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
Potential sources
For future reference:
- Steinberg, Julia R.; Finer, Lawrence B. (2010). "Examining the association of abortion history and current mental health: A reanalysis of the National Comorbidity Survey using a common-risk-factors model". Soc Sci Med. 72 (1): 72–82. doi:10.1016/j.socscimed.2010.10.006. PMID 21122964.
{{cite journal}}
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ignored (help)
- Charles, Vignetta E.; Polis, Chelsea B.; Sridhara, Srinivas K.; Blum, Robert W. (2008). "Abortion and long-term mental health outcomes: a systematic review of the evidence". Contraception. 78 (6): 436–50. doi:10.1016/j.contraception.2008.07.005. PMID 19014789.
{{cite journal}}
: Unknown parameter|month=
ignored (help)
- Steinberg, Julia R.; Russo, Nancy Felipe (2009). "Evaluating research on abortion and mental health". Contraception. 80 (6): 500–3. doi:10.1016/j.contraception.2009.06.003. PMID 19913142.
{{cite journal}}
: Unknown parameter|month=
ignored (help)
- Major, B.; Appelbaum, M.; Beckman, L.; Dutton, M. A.; Russo, N. F.; West, C. (2009). "Abortion and mental health: Evaluating the evidence". American Psychologist. 64 (9): 863–890. doi:10.1037/a0017497. PMID 19968372.
- Casey, P. R. (2010). "Abortion among young women and subsequent life outcomes". Best Practice & Research Clinical Obstetrics & Gynaecology. 24 (4): 491–502. doi:10.1016/j.bpobgyn.2010.02.007. PMID 20303829.
- Steinberg, J. R. (2011). "Later Abortions and Mental Health: Psychological Experiences of Women Having Later Abortions—A Critical Review of Research". Women's Health Issues. 21 (3): S44–S48. doi:10.1016/j.whi.2011.02.002. PMID 21530839.
- Munk-Olsen, T.; Laursen, T. M.; Pedersen, C. B.; Lidegaard, Ø.; Mortensen, P. B. (2011). "Induced First-Trimester Abortion and Risk of Mental Disorder". New England Journal of Medicine. 364 (4): 332–339. doi:10.1056/NEJMoa0905882. PMID 21268725.
- (1990) As compared to other stressful life events
- Adler, N.; David, H.; Major, B.; Roth, S.; Russo, N.; Wyatt, G. (1990). "Psychological responses after abortion". Science. 248 (4951): 41–44. doi:10.1126/science.2181664. PMID 2181664.
- Finland
- Gissler, M; Hemminki, E; Lönnqvist, J (1996). "Suicides after pregnancy in Finland, 1987–94: register linkage study". BMJ. 313 (7070): 1431–4. PMC 2352979. PMID 8973229.
- New Zealand
- Fergusson, David M.; John Horwood, L.; Ridder, Elizabeth M. (2006). "Abortion in young women and subsequent mental health". J Child Psychol Psychiatry. 47 (1): 16–24. doi:10.1111/j.1469-7610.2005.01538.x. PMID 16405636.
{{cite journal}}
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ignored (help)- Criticism: Dwyer, Judith M; Jackson, Terri (2008). "Unwanted pregnancy, mental health and abortion: untangling the evidence". Aust New Zealand Health Policy. 5: 2. doi:10.1186/1743-8462-5-2. PMC 2390567. PMID 18442413.
{{cite journal}}
: CS1 maint: unflagged free DOI (link) - NZ has different requirements for abortion than the US does: APA "Task Force on Mental Health and Abortion". American Psychological Association. Retrieved 2008-08-28.
{{cite web}}
: Check|url=
value (help); Munk-Olsen, T.; Laursen, T. M.; Pedersen, C. B.; Lidegaard, Ø.; Mortensen, P. B. (2011). "Induced First-Trimester Abortion and Risk of Mental Disorder". New England Journal of Medicine. 364 (4): 332–339. doi:10.1056/NEJMoa0905882. PMID 21268725.
- Criticism: Dwyer, Judith M; Jackson, Terri (2008). "Unwanted pregnancy, mental health and abortion: untangling the evidence". Aust New Zealand Health Policy. 5: 2. doi:10.1186/1743-8462-5-2. PMC 2390567. PMID 18442413.
- Fergusson, D. M.; Horwood, L. J.; Boden, J. M. (2008). "Abortion and mental health disorders: Evidence from a 30-year longitudinal study". The British Journal of Psychiatry. 193 (6): 444–451. doi:10.1192/bjp.bp.108.056499. PMID 19043144.
- Followup letter: Fergusson, D. M.; Horwood, L. J.; Boden, J. M. (2009). "Abortion and mental health (Correspondence)". The British Journal of Psychiatry. 194 (4): 377–378. doi:10.1192/bjp.194.4.377b. PMID 19336795.
- Positive effects
- Russo, Nancy F.; Zierk, Kristin L. (1992). "Abortion, childbearing, and women's well-being". Professional Psychology: Research and Practice. 23 (4): 269–280. doi:10.1037/0735-7028.23.4.269.
- No positive correlation after controlling for childbearing and resource variables
- Prior mental health issues
- Major, B; Cozzarelli, C; Cooper, ML; Zubek, J; Richards, C; Wilhite, M; Gramzow, RH (2000). "Psychological responses of women after first-trimester abortion". Arch. Gen. Psychiatry. 57 (8): 777–84. doi:10.1001/archpsyc.57.8.777. PMID 10920466.
{{cite journal}}
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ignored (help)
- Reardon et al.
- Reardon, DC; Cougle, JR; Rue, VM; Shuping, MW; Coleman, PK; Ney, PG (2003). "Psychiatric admissions of low-income women following abortion and childbirth". CMAJ. 168 (10): 1253–6. PMC 154179. PMID 12743066.
{{cite journal}}
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ignored (help)- Criticized by for failure to follow correlation v. causation: Major, B (2003). "Psychological implications of abortion—highly charged and rife with misleading research". CMAJ. 168 (10): 1257–8. PMC 154180. PMID 12743067.
{{cite journal}}
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ignored (help)
- Criticized by for failure to follow correlation v. causation: Major, B (2003). "Psychological implications of abortion—highly charged and rife with misleading research". CMAJ. 168 (10): 1257–8. PMC 154180. PMID 12743067.
- Suicide
- Schiff, M. A.; Grossman, D. C. (2006). "Adverse perinatal outcomes and risk for postpartum suicide attempt in Washington state, 1987–2001". Pediatrics. 118 (3): e669–75. doi:10.1542/peds.2006-0116. PMID 16950958.
{{cite journal}}
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ignored (help)
- Teenagers
- Zabin, L. S.; Hirsch, M. B.; Emerson, M. R. (1989). "When urban adolescents choose abortion: effects on education, psychological status and subsequent pregnancy". Fam Plann Perspect. 21 (6): 248–55. doi:10.2307/2135377. PMID 2620716.
- What causes stress
- Stotland, N. L. (1992). "The myth of the abortion trauma syndrome". Journal of the American Medical Association. 268 (15): 2078–9. doi:10.1001/jama.268.15.2078. PMID 1404747.
{{cite journal}}
: Unknown parameter|month=
ignored (help) - Kero, A; Högberg, U; Jacobsson, L; Lalos, A (2001). "Legal abortion: a painful necessity". Soc Sci Med. 53 (11): 1481–90. doi:10.1016/S0277-9536(00)00436-6. PMID 11710423.
{{cite journal}}
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ignored (help) - Casey, PR (1998). "". Servir (in Portuguese). 46 (1): 5–7. PMID 9653372.
NW (Talk) 02:51, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
Coleman's new meta-analysis
Anupam (talk · contribs) is attempting to add, rather prominently, a meta-analysis by Priscilla K. Coleman. Firstly, I would appreciate it if he or anyone else could email me the full text of the article. Secondly, considering her history, I don't believe we should be inserting any study of Coleman's as if it were fact. The article just came out; surely we can wait a month or two before responses come in from the BMJ, NEJM, etc? If you really want to go ahead and add it now, please suggest how we can incorporate into the appropriate article section. NW (Talk) 14:59, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
- It is available here.
- Hello User:NuclearWarfare, I would request that you kindly revert your edit. I did present the information neutrally as evidenced by my edit. The meta-analysis was published in the British Journal of Psychiatry and is a peer-reviewed reliable source. As such, the position should be presented, along with the current information in the article. I hope this helps. With regards, Anupam 15:45, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
- According to our article about the Br. J. Psych., it is open access after a 12 month embargo. Per wp:NOTNEWS, we can wait to see what it contains, and what the peers have to say.LeadSongDog come howl! 16:53, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
- WP:REDFLAG indicates waiting would be prudent. Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. - ArtifexMayhem (talk) 18:58, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
- Which we're very unlikely to get from Coleman, since a) her studies have been criticized by the APA for their faulty methodology, b) in at least one case, researchers using Coleman's dataset were unable to obtain her results c) the supposed meta-analysis is largely of Coleman's own studies, so it's pretty worthless anyway. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 06:01, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
- Do you have any sources for your claims, Roscelese? Thanks Geremia (talk) 01:24, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- Which ones? Look at the studies in the paper you yourself linked - of 22 studies, 10 are by Coleman herself and another few are by her close colleagues. The other "claims" are already mentioned and cited in Misplaced Pages's article on Coleman, which you're obviously aware of since you edited it. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 01:41, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- WP:REDFLAG indicates waiting would be prudent. Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. - ArtifexMayhem (talk) 18:58, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
- According to our article about the Br. J. Psych., it is open access after a 12 month embargo. Per wp:NOTNEWS, we can wait to see what it contains, and what the peers have to say.LeadSongDog come howl! 16:53, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
- There are currently some of the reasons for including Coleman in this article:
- Coleman's study is the largest meta-analysis to date.
- There is absolutely no mention of studies, old or new, that claim to show a correlation between abortion and mental health problems
- Geremia (talk) 01:33, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- Why should there be? No reputable body supports the claim, and many of the individual studies have been discredited. Please see WP:FRINGE: we are not required to give equal weight to fringe theories. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 01:41, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- To quote directly from that page: "The neutral point of view policy requires that all majority and significant-minority positions be included in an article." Currently, this article includes no "significant-minority positions," and Coleman, being the biggest meta-analysis, certainly is a "significant-minority position." If it is not, then what is? Whatever is should be included or else it would remain a violation of NPOV. Thanks Geremia (talk) 01:56, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- The article already does mention studies which found a correlation. What more do you want to add? –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 01:59, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- Where? Geremia (talk) 02:20, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- "While some studies have reported a statistical correlation between abortion and clinical depression, anxiety, suicidal behaviors, or adverse effects on women's sexual functions for a small number of women, these studies are typically methodologically flawed and fail to account for confounding factors. Higher-quality studies have consistently found no causal relationship between abortion and mental-health problems." I think that's the best you can ask for, since it mirrors expert scholarly opinion on the topic. Every reputable expert body that's examined the literature has concluded that there's no evidence that abortion causes mental-health problems. It's inappropriate to highlight individual studies to try to "debunk" or rebut expert opinion (see WP:MEDRS). If Coleman's paper is as substantial as you believe it to be, then expert bodies will revise their opinions. MastCell 02:27, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- The claims in this section you quote are completely uncited. Who said the studies are "are typically methodologically flawed and fail to account for confounding factors" and that "Higher-quality studies have consistently found no causal relationship between abortion and mental-health problems"? And the citation given to support these claims is a research paper. We could just as easily make a non sequitur citation of Coleman to prove the opposite of these claims. This isn't the only occurrence of a "non sequitur" citation. See, e.g., citation #5; what does Reagan's politics have to do with whether there is scientific evidence or not? We have not come to a consensus on this, which is why "cleanup-rewrite" tags are needed in order to alert others to help and contribute to this discussion and make this article comply with NPOV. Geremia (talk) 06:28, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- The claims are not "completely uncited". Can we start by acknowledging the reality that there is a citation supporting these claims? There's a footnote immediately following them, linking to PMID 19014789. Maybe we can move on from there. MastCell 19:26, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- As I said on 06:28, 5 September 2011 (UTC): how could one not cite a study like Coleman's to support the opposite claim? Viz., I could say, citing Coleman, that studies she used are not "typically methodologically flawed" nor do they "fail to account for confounding factors" and that "Higher-quality studies have consistently found" a "causal relationship between abortion and mental-health problems." No? Thanks Geremia (talk) 16:18, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
- I'm not quite following you. Coleman's paper has, at present, no demonstrable impact on the viewpoints of expert medical and psychological bodies. It is inappropriate for us, as Misplaced Pages editors, to highlight her paper to "rebut" those expert bodies. If her paper is, in fact, taken seriously by the relevant expert communities, then they will revise their viewpoints. And we will revise this article accordingly. MastCell 17:14, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
- One such community is the American Association of Pro-Life Obstetricians & Gynecologists (AAPLOG), a special interest group of the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists. Geremia (talk) 19:30, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
- As far as I can tell, AAPLOG is a partisan organization accorded essentially zero weight by independent, reputable scientific or lay sources. I think that giving AAPLOG's opinion equal weight with position statements from the APA et al. is sort of the canonical violation of WP:WEIGHT. MastCell 20:32, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
- One such community is the American Association of Pro-Life Obstetricians & Gynecologists (AAPLOG), a special interest group of the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists. Geremia (talk) 19:30, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
- I'm not quite following you. Coleman's paper has, at present, no demonstrable impact on the viewpoints of expert medical and psychological bodies. It is inappropriate for us, as Misplaced Pages editors, to highlight her paper to "rebut" those expert bodies. If her paper is, in fact, taken seriously by the relevant expert communities, then they will revise their viewpoints. And we will revise this article accordingly. MastCell 17:14, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
- As I said on 06:28, 5 September 2011 (UTC): how could one not cite a study like Coleman's to support the opposite claim? Viz., I could say, citing Coleman, that studies she used are not "typically methodologically flawed" nor do they "fail to account for confounding factors" and that "Higher-quality studies have consistently found" a "causal relationship between abortion and mental-health problems." No? Thanks Geremia (talk) 16:18, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
- The claims are not "completely uncited". Can we start by acknowledging the reality that there is a citation supporting these claims? There's a footnote immediately following them, linking to PMID 19014789. Maybe we can move on from there. MastCell 19:26, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- The claims in this section you quote are completely uncited. Who said the studies are "are typically methodologically flawed and fail to account for confounding factors" and that "Higher-quality studies have consistently found no causal relationship between abortion and mental-health problems"? And the citation given to support these claims is a research paper. We could just as easily make a non sequitur citation of Coleman to prove the opposite of these claims. This isn't the only occurrence of a "non sequitur" citation. See, e.g., citation #5; what does Reagan's politics have to do with whether there is scientific evidence or not? We have not come to a consensus on this, which is why "cleanup-rewrite" tags are needed in order to alert others to help and contribute to this discussion and make this article comply with NPOV. Geremia (talk) 06:28, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- "While some studies have reported a statistical correlation between abortion and clinical depression, anxiety, suicidal behaviors, or adverse effects on women's sexual functions for a small number of women, these studies are typically methodologically flawed and fail to account for confounding factors. Higher-quality studies have consistently found no causal relationship between abortion and mental-health problems." I think that's the best you can ask for, since it mirrors expert scholarly opinion on the topic. Every reputable expert body that's examined the literature has concluded that there's no evidence that abortion causes mental-health problems. It's inappropriate to highlight individual studies to try to "debunk" or rebut expert opinion (see WP:MEDRS). If Coleman's paper is as substantial as you believe it to be, then expert bodies will revise their opinions. MastCell 02:27, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- Where? Geremia (talk) 02:20, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- The article already does mention studies which found a correlation. What more do you want to add? –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 01:59, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- To quote directly from that page: "The neutral point of view policy requires that all majority and significant-minority positions be included in an article." Currently, this article includes no "significant-minority positions," and Coleman, being the biggest meta-analysis, certainly is a "significant-minority position." If it is not, then what is? Whatever is should be included or else it would remain a violation of NPOV. Thanks Geremia (talk) 01:56, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- Why should there be? No reputable body supports the claim, and many of the individual studies have been discredited. Please see WP:FRINGE: we are not required to give equal weight to fringe theories. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 01:41, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
Does Coleman's study fall under the Post-Abortion Syndrome section? She certainly does not use that terminology in her paper. This was my justification for moving it to the Current and historical reviews section, but some users here think otherwise. Thanks Geremia (talk) 19:30, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
The inclusion of cleanup tags
Some have been opposed to the inclusion of cleanup tags in this article because they think the WP:POV, WP:WEIGHT, citations, and Misplaced Pages quality standards issues have been met in this article, but judging from the numerous unresolved WP:POV discussions in the archive and the pleas to rewrite this article, these issues have not been resolved; therefore, cleanup tags must remain until they are resolved. Geremia (talk) 06:53, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- The most reliable and authoriative sources that could be found for the lede first sentence are a New York Times article and NOW on PBS a cancelled newsmagazine program, there must surely be something outside of the American News Media that could be used. The BCoP is probably more reliable than news media but surely there are also other scholarly sources that could go with it?DMSBel (talk) 18:07, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
- Just to be clear, NOW (in this instance) is a reputable news program on PBS, and not the National Organization of Women. And since the first sentence describes political controversy surrounding the issue, surely high-quality mainstream news sources like the New York Times and PBS are reasonable to support it? On the other hand, if you've identified similarly high-quality sources outside the American news media, I think people would be receptive to including them. MastCell 18:07, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
- News media is the last place I would begin for reliable non-partisan sources on a controversial political issue. But if I find anything more scholarly I'll suggest it here.DMSBel (talk) 18:18, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
- By the way, I don't understand how anyone would have mixed up NOW on PBS when I linked to it, with the National Organisation of Women?DMSBel (talk) 18:22, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
- Well, you altered your original post to add that link here. I was responding to your initial post (which suggested possible confusion about NOW), and didn't expect you to alter it ten minutes later. The talk-page guidelines discourage you from doing that sort of thing; it makes it hard for people to respond to you when you go back and change your comments and then wonder how anyone could have been confused by them. But OK.
Reputable mainstream media sources are fairly useful for covering political controversies; I think you'll find them in widespread use around Misplaced Pages, in some of our best articles. If you prefer non-American scholarly sources, there's PMID 21557713, a recent review from a European medical journal. The political controversy (for example, over laws requiring physicians to provide dubious "information" about the mental-health risks of abortion) has been covered in the New England Journal of Medicine, among other scholarly sources (). Do you think those would be useful? MastCell 18:39, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
- Well, you altered your original post to add that link here. I was responding to your initial post (which suggested possible confusion about NOW), and didn't expect you to alter it ten minutes later. The talk-page guidelines discourage you from doing that sort of thing; it makes it hard for people to respond to you when you go back and change your comments and then wonder how anyone could have been confused by them. But OK.
- But you clearly come down on one side of the political debate in your both your article selections, and pick articles that are partisan to the discussion. Yet that is what you are harping on about others doing all the time. Why should I listen to you? DMSBel (talk) 19:01, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
- Perhaps these items were suggested not because of their content, but because of their coming from high quality sources outside the American news media, as was requested. What other sources of similar quality (published in peer reviewed academic literature, etc. - wp:MEDRS) would you suggest? Zodon (talk) 20:36, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, I must have misunderstood. Did you just call the New England Journal of Medicine and The European Journal of Contraception and Reproductive Health Care "partisan to the discussion"? NW (Talk) 20:40, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, you misunderstood, I clearly refered only to the articles not the journals.DMSBel (talk) 02:10, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
- Again, I feel that I am misunderstanding. You are referring to articles in NEJM and Eur J Contracept Reprod Health Care as being biased and partisan? NW (Talk) 02:13, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, you misunderstood, I clearly refered only to the articles not the journals.DMSBel (talk) 02:10, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
- In my experience articles that I have seen in reproductive health journals do tend to come down on one side of the political debate acknowledged in the first sentence of this article, in other words where it is said that abortion is a reproductive health choice marks a particular political position taken. Journals such as the BJPysch publish from respected researchers on both sides, including reputable studies that might go against a current scientific consensus. The "logic" I see at work in some editors is that reputable = in agreeance with current scientific consensus. Not in agreeance = not reputable. That "logic" can seem scientific but absolute adherence to it is scientific dogmatism. At least thats how I look at it. DMSBel (talk) 05:31, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
- I understand your personal viewpoint, but I'm not clear on how you're suggesting we put it into practice. Are we to downplay articles from "reproductive health journals" because you consider them biased? And prioritize studies from the British Journal of Psychiatry because you consider it praiseworthy? MastCell 05:42, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
- A particular political position is reflected in the two articles suggested as alternatives. The NEJM also highlights a particular localised issue, that won't be of much interest to readers outside the US. For that reason they would not be suitable to reference the lede. So I suggest we leave the refs under discussion (such as they are) as they are for now.DMSBel (talk) 18:26, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
- I appreciate the more constructive tone of this comment, but I disagree with your view of these sources. PMID 21557713 does not reflect a "political position". It is a review article from the medical literature, and it clearly summarizes the scientific and scholarly viewpoint on abortion and its risks. It also describes the prevalence of inaccurate and misleading claims about the safety of abortion - a trend which, I would hope, Misplaced Pages does not contribute to. Your disagreement with the article's content does not make it "political". The NEJM piece is commentary, and is clearly labeled as such, but we need to be a bit more scrupulous about calling sources "political" simply because they don't agree with our personal viewpoints.
That said, I'm fine with the existing sources as well. I provided these additional sources in an effort to meet your request for scholarly sources outside the U.S. lay media. Given that you've now also attached a requirement that the sources reach, or avoid, specific conclusions, I think I'm done for now. MastCell 18:34, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
- I appreciate the more constructive tone of this comment, but I disagree with your view of these sources. PMID 21557713 does not reflect a "political position". It is a review article from the medical literature, and it clearly summarizes the scientific and scholarly viewpoint on abortion and its risks. It also describes the prevalence of inaccurate and misleading claims about the safety of abortion - a trend which, I would hope, Misplaced Pages does not contribute to. Your disagreement with the article's content does not make it "political". The NEJM piece is commentary, and is clearly labeled as such, but we need to be a bit more scrupulous about calling sources "political" simply because they don't agree with our personal viewpoints.
If AAPLOG is too small to mention, what about ACOG?
Is the ACOG also "a barely notable or non-notable partisan group"? Their silence "on the mental health impact of abortion in its official publications" should not be mentioned? —Geremia (talk) 20:40, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
- There is a clear difference between ACOG - the major professional and scholarly organization of obstetricians and gynecologists in the U.S. - and AAPLOG. If there is serious doubt that ACOG is a reputable expert body, then I despair for our ability to ever produce reasonably serious encyclopedic, high-quality coverage of the medical aspects of this topic. Presenting AAPLOG's opinion in the lead, as equal to (and even as a rebuttal to) that of ACOG, is sort of a canonical violation of WP:NPOV and WP:WEIGHT. MastCell 21:21, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
97 publications supporting a correlation between abortion and mental health problems
There are at least 97 publications, including Priscilla Coleman's 2011 meta-analysis, supporting a correlation between abortion and mental health problems. How can people say here that giving these studies any weight outside the seemingly pseudo-scientific and politically-charged section of Post-Abortion Syndrome is a violation of WP:NPOV and WP:WEIGHT?
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Thanks —Geremia (talk) 21:19, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
- Please take a look at Misplaced Pages's content policies and guidelines, including WP:PSTS and WP:MEDRS. We don't base our presentation on search-engine counts. Where there is extensive published literature on a topic, we look to reputable expert bodies to see how they have synthesized the available data. On this topic, obviously, the studies you cite have failed to sway experts in the field. That's presumably because a) many of these studies have serious and even invalidating methodologic flaws, and b) a similarly large literature, which you've failed to cite, reaches different conclusions.
Cherry-picking a list of primary sources that support your viewpoint, dumping them on the talkpage to overwhelm other editors with sheer mass, and using them to editorially "rebut" reputable expert opinion in the field - these are editorial behaviors that are specifically discouraged in Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. MastCell 21:27, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
- Thank you for putting them in a {{hat}}. —Geremia (talk) 21:32, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
- References
- Davenport, Mary L., M.D. (2011-09-01). "Major Study Links Suicide and Other Mental Health Problems to Abortion". American Thinker. Retrieved 2011-09-09.
{{cite news}}
: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link) - American Association of Pro-Life Obstetricians & Gynecologists (2010). "Complete bibliography on Abortion and Mental Health". Retrieved 2011-09-09.
- American Association of Pro-Life Obstetricians & Gynecologists (2011). "Huge new study: Abortion and mental health: quantitative synthesis and analysis of research published 1995-2009". Retrieved 2011-09-09.
- Cf. Priscilla K. Coleman#Scholarly publications.
- Start-Class Abortion articles
- Unknown-importance Abortion articles
- WikiProject Abortion articles
- Start-Class medicine articles
- Unknown-importance medicine articles
- Start-Class reproductive medicine articles
- Unknown-importance reproductive medicine articles
- Reproductive medicine task force articles
- All WikiProject Medicine pages