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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Opus33 (talk | contribs) at 18:40, 7 July 2004 (Query for those who edit classical music editors). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Copyright issue

The article about Beethoven's Ninth Symphony is very interesting and enjoyable, but:

• are we sure it is copright-free? it is "signed" and has a structure of a piece of criticism which could have appeared in a book or journal (nothing of the above means that it was not written for the Misplaced Pages, or is free from copyright, of course, but one wonders).
• it expresses in some places very personal opinions and commentaries, some of which not universally shared. So, if we agree that it does not violate anything, one could work a bit about it. But, then again, perhaps it is by a great critic, so his opinion may well be interesting (and worthy an encyclopedia article) by themselves.

Should anybody change or delete or whatever that article, please do not delete the initial part (the one with the description of the symphony's movements), which was written by myself, obtaining it by the score of the symphony. --Goochelaar

I would venture to say that it's written by an aficionado; if he's also a critic, he's a critic for a journal that doesn't bother archiving things online: . Those three pages yield the year-old email mestrin1 at earthlink.net. Anyone care to ask him? --Koyaanis Qatsi

Beethoven and his predecessors

Some statements in the article concerning Beethoven's work in relation to Haydn's and Mozart's are inaccurate.

First, the claim that his developments last 10 minutes. No, they are at most about 5 minutes. His longest movements are 15 to 20 minutes long (depending on repeats) with the development taking up about a third. In many of Haydn's works the development is equally extensive compared to the scale of the movement.

Second, the claim that the Eroica first movement is as long as a Mozart-era symphony. Mozart's symphonies with 4 movements take about 25 minutes to perform whereas the first movement of the Eroica is about 15 minutes. Possibly if one were to perform the Eroica very slowly with repeats and the Mozart very fast without repeats the times could be equal, but this is not a fair comparison.

However, it is indisputable that Beethoven's codas (closing sections) were on average much longer than Mozart's (no codas or very short ones) or Haydn's occasionally more extensive codas; and that Beethoven's movements were on average longer than Mozart's and Haydn's - say half as long again. There are very notable exceptions, like the short first movement of the Fifth Symphony and the String Quartet no.11 which is shorter than most of Haydn's mature works.

It's not true to say that Beethoven's use of rhythmic motifs contrasts strongly with Haydn's. On the contrary, Haydn pioneered the technique of breaking up musical thought into short, flexible rhythmic motifs, which Beethoven undoubtedly drew from. (See Haydn string quartet op.50 no.4 (first movement), the finale of the piano sonata no.52, the first movement of the sonata no.49, etc.etc.) However, Beethoven achieved unprecedented rhythmic drive and emotional and dramatic range with the technique, which probably leads many people to neglect Haydn's contribution.

While it's correct to say that the first-movement themes of the Fifth and Ninth symphonies are more rhythmic than melodic in character, it's difficult to see how the broad cello theme of the Eroica first movement can be called unmelodic. In fact, Mozart used the exact same melody decades earlier in one of his early minuets (though with a rather different overall effect). One of the distinguishing features of the 3rd. is the strong contrast between broad, simple melodies and energetic rhythmic passages. (Compare the quartet Op.59 no.1 first movement.)

Concerning the finale of the 3rd., it's more complex than just the initial (not very melodic) "theme" consisting of isolated notes. This turns out to be the bass-line of the theme revealed later, which is a broadly lyrical melody. In fact the bass-line is used as a *harmonic* theme, rather than a rhythmic one: Beethoven immediately changes the rhythm of the notes, but keeps the same harmony throughout the variations. This is similar to Baroque ground bass movements which present varying melodies and rhythms over the same harmony. Beethoven's innovation is in "fooling" us (at least the writer of the article) into thinking that the bass line is the melody. ***** tdent@auth.gr

Yes, the article needs quite a bit of work. I don't agree with absolutely everything you say, but I'm with you on most of it, and I'm sure you could much improve the article. Do feel free to do so: be bold in updating pages and all that. --Camembert

Arrival of Stirling Newberry

Thanks for revising the Beethoven article, Stirling. I've edited slightly and added a bit more on the "crisis period."

I hope you will endorse (or at least put up with) my trimback of the discussion of the Ninth Symphony--the bits about the Choral Fantasy predecessor and the Berlin Wall were already there in the Ninth Symphony article, and I feel they fit there better than in the Beethoven article as such.

Have you thought of taking on Mozart or Schubert? Both need tender loving care right now.

Opus33 04:45, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I had not seen the Ninth Symphony Article when I posted my additions, and I agree that moving more writing there is better, it is an extensive article. The Beethoven needs revising, in that the section on his music proper needs to have a bit more on what an encyclopedia reader would need. What is there is technically good, and worthy to keep, but needs to be balanced with the emotional and literary work.

Schubert isn't really my strong point, I will probably stop by Haydn, and would like to continue to refine some of the individual articles on Beethoven's music, particularly his string quartets and piano trios.

Stirling

We don't know when Beethoven was born

A little while ago, somebody changed "baptized December 17" in the opening sentence to "born December 16". Is this definitely correct? I thought that we knew for sure when Beethoven was baptized, but couldn't say for sure what day he was born on. --Camembert

• You're right, and I'm about to change it back. (It's really not at all unusual not to know a birth date but to know a baptismal date, but people keep trying to squeeze facts into a template, even if it means doing violence to the facts) Here's an online ref. -- Outerlimits 01:53, 14 May 2004 (UTC)

Shorten Symphony Section

We've now got individual articles on all nine symphonies, which I think renders the discussion of individual symphonies on this page redundant. I've put in cross-references.

In case anyone wants to restore old material, or transfer it to the individual symphony articles, below I've appended what I cut.

I hope this is ok. Opus33 20:44, 14 May 2004 (UTC)

Beethoven completed nine numbered symphonies. His first symphony, in C, is reliant upon Haydn models. His Symphony No. 2 in D extends Beethoven's understanding of the symphony. His first famous symphony was No. 3 in E-flat, better known as the Eroica. As mentioned, although this was originally dedicated to the French First Consul, Napoleon, Beethoven angrily ripped off the dedication after the Frenchman declared himself emperor.

The Symphony No. 4 in B-flat is a remarkable example of good humor. Even more famous is Symphony No. 5 in C minor, which starts with a well-known theme which people say sounds like fate knocking at the door. The Sixth Symphony, in F, is better known as the Pastoral. It is based on country life, and made up of five movements, of which the most famous are the second movement, Scene by the Brook, and the third, Merry Gathering of Country Folk.

The Seventh and Eighth symphonies are more rhythmic, the second movement of the eighth being based on the metronome, an invention by Beethoven's friend Johann Maelzel. The final complete symphony is Symphony No. 9 in D minor, composed in 1823 (and occasionally referred to as Choral), whose last movement, as mentioned, was a setting of Schiller's poem celebrating joy. A choir and four vocal soloists appear in this movement. (The chorus has been adopted as the official anthem of the European Union.)

Deleted material

Here's the stuff I just removed from the top of the article, in case anyone want to put it back:

His most famous works include his Fifth Symphony, Ninth Symphony, the piano piece "Für Elise", the "Pathétique" Sonata and the "Moonlight" Sonata.

Query for other classical music editors

I'm posting this under Beethoven, since I think most classical music editors have this page on their watchlist, but the issue comes up for all composers.

We've now got a fair number of articles about individual compositions by Beethoven. What would be the best way to give the reader easy access to all of these articles? Asking the reader to go to "What links here" seems inadequate, since for someone like Beethoven the compositions are buried in a whole raft of other random cultural connections. Should there be a list, like ===Articles on compositions by Beethoven=== as part of the ==See also== section?

Whatever we do, if anything, probably should be done uniformly for all composers.

Thanks in advance for your opinion, yours very truly, Opus33 18:40, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)