Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Avalon (talk | contribs) at 12:55, 17 September 2011 (→Archiving your posts with User:MiszaBot: response). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Welcome from Acetic Acid/Ryan

Welcome to Misplaced Pages, Avalon! My name is Ryan, aka Acetic Acid. I noticed that you were new and haven't received any messages yet. I just wanted to see how you were doing. Misplaced Pages can be a little intimidating at first, since it uses different formatting than other sites that use HTML and CSS. In the long run, though, you'll find that the WikiSyntax is a lot easier and faster than those other ways. Here are a few links to get you started:

• How to edit a page
• Editing, policy, conduct, and structure tutorial
• Picture tutorial
• How to write a great article

There are a lot of policies and guides to read, but I highly recommend reading over those first. If you have any questions, feel free to leave me a message on my talk page. Please be sure to sign your name on Talk Pages using four tildes (~~~~) to produce your name and the current date, along with a link to your user page. This way, others know when you left a message and how to find you. It's easier than having to type out your name, right? :)

I hope you enjoy contributing to Misplaced Pages. We can use all the help we can get! Have a nice day. Sincerely, Ryan. 12:44, August 2, 2005 (UTC)

Answer to request for help

• I'd be more than happy to help. Don't hesitate to ask. :P Ryan 12:51, August 2, 2005 (UTC)

• I had a similar problem and made my own which you may prefer to the one currently on your page in terms of colours. The colour of the background I used was #093A80, and matches the blue of the logo. It's a minor change so I'll edit it for you - if you think this makes it worse or is ugly, don't hesitate to post on my talk page and I will revert it painlessly :-) Leon... 03:45, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Can I change factual inaccuracies?

Good evening/morning. You can change it. You might want to put in the edit summary "See talk page" and explain it a bit on the talk page. You also probably should put one of the source right next to it, like this:

So and so was killed at this battle.

Unfortunately, there is no spellchecker at this time. That's why copyediting is so important. Wikiquette can be found here. Take care. Ryan 10:16, August 3, 2005 (UTC)

Welcome from Cyberjunkie

Howdy Avalon. As a fellow Australian, I'd like to welcome you and let you know about the Australian community on Misplaced Pages. Be sure to check out Australian resources, like The Australia Wikiportal, Australian Wikipedians' Notice Board (AWDB), Australian Collaboration of the Fortnight, New Australian Articles and Australian stub articles. You can also list yourself at Australian Wikipedians. If you have any questions, you can post a question on AWNB or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome, and happy editing, --Cyberjunkie | Talk 11:01, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

RE: What to do?

Hi Avalon. When one comes across an article that appears to be un-encyclopædic or un-intelligible, it should be proposed for deletion. This is done under a process called Vfd or Votes for deletion. Only articles and some Misplaced Pages-space pages are deleted under Vfd. Templates, images and categories are deleted via Tfd, Ifd and Cfd respectively. Some pages qualify for speedy deletion, including inappropriate or vanity articles. However, it is best to use that process only if you are familiar with what qualifies for speedy deletion.

Deletion can be quite an emotive issue on Misplaced Pages as it can only be carried out by Administrators and is in most cases irreversible. At present, Vfd is having quite a polarising effect, with Wikipedians forming "like-minded" groups such as the Inclusionists, the Deletionists and the Mergists. Generally, I shy away from Vfd lest I become involved in one of the more controversial deletions. I typically only voice my opinion on Australia-related Vfd's. However, don't let this perturb you. The great majority of deletions pass without even a smidgen of discontent.

But I digress. To get back to your query, I have nominated Kayserispor for deletion (see Misplaced Pages:Pages for deletion/Kayserispor to vote). It might have qualified for speedy deletion, but foreign language pages on this English Misplaced Pages are best put to Vfd with the hope that someone can translate them.--Cyberjunkie | Talk 09:00, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Looking at my watchlist, it seems my explanation of Misplaced Pages deletion procedures was un-necessary: I see you've voted several times already ;-). Happy editing, --Cyberjunkie | Talk 09:25, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

RE: Question

See Misplaced Pages:Revert. Go to the page history, click on the date of the version you wish to revert to, once loaded "edit this page" and save. --Cyberjunkie | Talk 03:34, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

District attorney

Thanks for putting the DPP link in the District attorney article. I don't go around thanking people for every good edit, but this one was particularly useful, cheers. While I'm here, I don't quite understand your "6 generations" comment on your userpage. I assume you have a British accent, so peole ask you how long you have been in Australia, how are you claiming this 6 generations? --Commander Keane 16:30, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for clearing that joke up for me.--Commander Keane 06:07, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Re: Request for Help

Hello, I'm reasonably new to Misplaced Pages and I'd like to ask you a question.

You wrote/made(?) the Category: Orders of knighthood in Jan 05. I think it ought to be divided into sub-categories by nation. Two questions:

• What do you think?

Fully agree Saga City 08:59, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

• How do I do it?

Thank you Avalon 00:42, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

I only know the one way, and it may not be the approved way as I find the guidance pages here almost incomprehensible, however as it works I'll set it out:

Find an order of knighthood for country XYZ and put it into a category called Orders of knighthood of XYZ. As the category does not (yet) exist it will be red-linked. Click on the red-link and create the new category in the same way as you create new . Your new category's entry may minimally include only 2 categories itself namely Orders of knighthood by nation and XYX. At the first time Orders of knighthood by nation will itself be redlinked. All you need to do is create that as a category is put Category:Orders of knighthood into it to link it the one I created back in January.

By the way, I'd only been contributing to Misplaced Pages for about six weeks then, so don't let being new discourage you. I did some sorting out the categories for awards and decorations and this was part of it.

Let me know it works (or doesn't work) Saga City 08:59, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Sir, defend your honour!!

I am appalled at your claim: "Australians are so supine you can do anything to them." I challenge you to a duel at 40 paces. You have choice of weapons. Maybe the Misplaced Pages:Meetup/Melbourne would be the appropriate venue.

I also notice that you "practice" law. Is that the accepted spelling of the verb "practise" in Australian legal circles these days, or are you simply lying down like a good supine Australian and letting the Americans walk all over you, or are you too apathetically Australian to know or care about the difference, or ... (please insert alternative explanations here). Cheers JackofOz 07:17, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Just go that page and add your name to the date(s) on which you're available. Hopefully a consensus will soon emerge. Or, more likely, somebody will suggest a particular date, and all the rest of us will just roll over and say "OK, fine by me, see you there". Whatever works. JackofOz 08:00, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

--dude australia never owned the american colonies, wtf are you talkning about?

Titled people on LoPbN

Thank you for your diligent efforts at adding titles like Lord and Sir in LoPbN. Sometimes such a title is the quickest way for a user to be sure which among similarly named persons they are after.

On the other hand, it is in general important to realize that the list, like many of those on WP, exists for the purpose of navigation rather than information. It is a list of people with biographical articles (or for whom there is a reasonable hope of bios being added). It is absolutely not a reference for information on the correct forms of names. (That worthwhile info has its proper place in WP: primary name for a person is part or all of the title of their bio, and other correct names, and erroneous but common ones, appear in the body of a good bio, where there is plenty of room for information on how good or bad those versions are.)

In particular, in a LoPbN entry, the piped version (what is to the right of the vertical-line character inside the link markup) of a name that includes a surname must have the parts of the name in the order used for alphabetizing that entry. A dramatic case could be Jim ap John, who could well have (since the use of "ap" is so little understood) three entries:

• ap John, Jim among the Ap names
• Jim ap John among the Ji names
• John, Jim ap among the Jo names

Which versions of the name are right or wrong is completely irrelevant to LoPbN: they are there solely to get both the expert reader and the clueless ones to the article, where everything can be made clear without its explication getting in the way of the navigational task.

Your edit of the At names, like many (at the least) of your LoPbN contributions miss this point.
"*Richard, Lord Attenborough" may not appear among people named "Att..." thru "Atw..." bcz that version of his name makes him a person named "Ric...". (Tho, BTS, that version of his name cannot appear on Template:Lopbn-l1, bcz anyone misguided enough to look up a modern title-bearer that way will quickly see that we do not let such formality interfere with access, and take the obvious stop of looking under "Att...".)

A little less disruptively, "*Attenborough, Sir David" should be "*Attenborough, David, Sir", for the same reason that no one will look for him under D or S: the surname is indipsensible in identifying him; the next step is not to separate the knighted Attenboroughs from hoi polloi, but Davids from all other given names, and then finally the Sir Davids from the other Davids. "Attenborough, Sir David" is harmless as to its effect on that page, but it is unacceptably harmful in undercutting the confidence that Sir David Jones will be found before, and not after, Samuel Jones.

As i say, though, there's no question in my mind that the information you're adding is good; i don't want to discourage you. Thanks.
--Jerzy•t 19:22, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

What Will Work Well on LoPbN?

_ _ Well. I wrote you with the hope that your edits reflected simply bold editing: shooting from the hip & getting a change out there where it can act as a concrete example to stimulate discussion of what is or isn't productive. (This process is inefficient, but crucial to the underlying concept of WP.) That working assumption underlay what i chose to say: my description of part of the consensus that i started working within two years ago, about how the list should work. (The experience of my edits on the list and its infrastructure -- edits numbering in the thousands, i'm sure -- has, BTW, only strengthened my confidence in that basic approach.)
_ _ In replying, you begin

I cannot accept your contentions.

as if you were closing, not opening a discussion. You continue, ambiguously but troublingly,

I note you do not support them with any Misplaced Pages guidelines.

You have thereby described a fact. It's a fact that is irrelevant to the discussion i was (& am still) trying to start (although my initial heading left my intent merely implicit).
_ _ The new heading i've added above makes it explicit: it's worth asking what will work well. That's what i gave you my informed opinion about, seeing that as leading into a collegial discussion. (And one thing an ethical jurist learns is to recognize situations when conciliation serves a common interest that may be harmed by rushing into explicit clarity about who has what unilateral power of resolution. In fact, lest i stifle that process, i'll forgo speculating here about why your agenda gave explicitly documented practice such high priority.) And while your response led me twd some sense that we were in two different discussions, that could be wrong, and i think i can set all of that aside for now.
_ _ It's probably worth my assuming you considered responding more directly to my logic. (E.g., i wish i had some sense of the extent that you agree or disagree with me, that this is about navigation and that conveying information (about correct names and the like) can be left to the bio articles.) You may well have found the stress of my verbal style too great an impediment. (One extremely hostile editor has described me, with some justice, as a "grammatical hurricane". I'm sympathetic, tho i'm not very good at making it easier to follow me.)
_ _ You made two closely related points that seem fertile ground to me. One was

...“Bloggs, John, Sir” simply looks clumsy.

Well, yes, of course, though i thought i had adequately disposed of any relevance of that fact in my (as yet unchallenged) focus on navigation. In any case, you were good enough to let me know that we agree about the order entries should have relative to each other, which is very helpful. (BTW, i find you astute in pointing out both the orders of name elements you do for Bloggs; i considered only one order -- e.g., in my edit (re R.F. Burton), soon after the first reversal of yr work re "Sir" that i made a non-default summary for. FWIW, i have not yet found any reason for significantly preferring one over the other. )
_ _ But i digress. You made "clumsy" sound like an esthetic concern, but the word's underlying sense is about inefficiency of action.

• I am concerned, on reflection, about what i'll call the 3rd of these 3 elements of navigation:
  1. Mobility is built into the server & browser: following lks & scrolling move you around in the data.
  2. Directional guides: the indexes at the tops of LoPbN pages, and the ToCs on all the medium to large pages, provide sign posts that get you closer to a small group of entries; then the entries themselves support homing in, visually, on the entry you came looking for.
  3. What i would compare to the nameplate next to the doorbell, i.e., the means of confirming that you've reached your destination.
• I think (my) "many commas" format is IMO the least clumsy means of seeing which direction to move the eye next, in each of the several times (per entry sought) that the user unconsciously glances up or down. My new concern is that that format neverhtheless leaves a clumsy final mental step (one-time per entry sought) for the user to go through. That is to say, if we're talking about your General Sir John Bloggs, it is ideal, for that final step, to have the name there in (your) "no added commas" order, i.e. in exactly the order used in this sentence; in contrast, the many-commas format forces the user to permute "Bloggs, John, General Sir" back into the doorbell nameplate version, possibly via a little of trial and error. Unfortunately, having it in the no-extra-commas order (or to be precise, having the neighboring entries in that order) multiplies the (unconscious) processing that must be done as the user homes in on Bloggs, by glancing at Bloags and Blongs entries, and then at, say, Blogge and Blogguman entries. (If that really is completely uncompelling to you, we can talk more explicitly about the cognitive psychology and the implicit binary search algorithm that i see as inherant to the process.)
• For me, the current bottom line is that you've drawn my attention to the hypothetical value of having a no-extra-commas version in the entry, for that final third element, but i can't imagine how it can make up for the loss of efficiency from giving up the advantages of many-commas format on the repetitive second element. And, nevertheless, i'm tantalized by the possibility of replacing the 2nd element by something other than the many-commas formats in the entries. Take a look at List of people by name: Wv-Wz, rather than my describing it, and if you want a few more examples (some larger), follow lks from User:Jerzy/Argus for LoPbN Templates#Pilot pages. I am imagining the section hdgs & lk-less text lines providing element 2, and converting the lk'ed lines (bio entries) to no-extra-commas format to optimize the 3rd element.
  

_ _ The other "fertile" thing you said is

See List of English people

which (at the risk of being a smart aleck) makes me want to say "See List of people by name: Brow#Brown, John". I did look at the English list (which is not a list of people by name, but a couple dozen quite small lists by name, and one four-screenish list of Eng. authors by name). It looks quite workable to me, with the possible exception of the authors: those authors have the only list that remotely begins to hint at a question that is crucial to the ones you are raising:

Is this list scalable?

LoPbN has gone thru 2 levels of metamorphosis whose evidence survives; perhaps it started as 26 pages of names and an index, or perhaps there have been 3 metamorphoses. Each metamorphosis reflects the previous non-scalable design reaching its limits. (Someone counted the names as being in the low 20 thousands, about 15 months ago, with probably less than 10% increase in pages (to abt 670 now), tho i guess the numbers are not very useful. In any case my expectation is that it's still scalable for a good while yet, but there could be a surprise in store for me. In contrast, IMO the List-of-English-people format is (unless its growth is stagnating) awaiting the breakdown in usefulness that will be resolved in its first metamorphosis.
_ _ Your suggestion to consult that list makes me think that you haven't really grasped the difference between the 100 or 125 writers and lists two or three orders of magnitude larger. The John Brown section is AFAIK unique so far, but i don't believe we are anywhere near the goal of getting all bios lked from LoPbN, so i take no bets. In any case, "enough quantity means a change in kind", and i urge you to look at that page on one hand, and on the other hand, at LoPbN sections of 15 to 25 names where all the names have several letters in common but no more than two or three people share any one surname. I think you'll get some feel for the human-factors element of the scaling problem.
--Jerzy•t 04:53, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

CAoW

Since you are listed as a Roman Catholic, I figured I'd send you this. Misplaced Pages:Catholic Alliance of wikipedia has been nominated for Deletion. Please vote and/or tell other people to vote to keep this organization on wikipedia. --Shanedidona 01:29, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

userboxes

Hi - thanks for you message. The page you refer to has userboxes laid out in three columns, and this is purely down to the templates being listed one after another in the text. Now that you mention it, that page should really follow the standard format of a wikitable... such as Misplaced Pages:Userboxes/Sports/Football. I see you have the userbox on your user page anyway... has your question been answered? Let me know if you'd like any more info. File:Anglo-indian.jpg Deano (Talk) 12:15, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

ArbCom Vote

Hi Avalon,

As per your opposition vote to my ArbCom candidacy due to the lack of questions, I've elaborated on my statement and explanation at the questions page. I welcome any further questions to be asked to clarify any of your doubts, and let me know on my talkpage if it's urgent. Thank you for your interest! :)

- Best regards, Mailer Diablo 02:55, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

WP:AFL

Hi, you say you're a fan of Australian football, well I suggest you take a look at WikiProject AFL. Cheers, Rogerthat 03:53, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Re Royce Hart, yep, that's the sort of thing WP:AFL is looking for. Good work mate, Rogerthat 09:27, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Çağlar

Please don't remove the {{wikify}} template without doing the required work. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:10, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

I think that that's a decision that can be left to the person patrolling the "to be wikified" category; someone might feel able to to basic wikification before the article is copy-edited (and that might help the person who copy-edits). If the work needs doing, the template should be added; what order the work is done in is left open. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 12:22, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Changing the names of articles

You need to click on "Move" and enter the new name — see Help:Moving a page for full instructions. I've moved Gosford house to Gosford House, so the links will all work now. Cheers. Proteus (Talk) 23:17, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Baron Dynevor

I've often left the article where it is, noted the alternative spelling, and created a redirect. See Earl of Clanricarde for an example of this can get ugly! Mackensen (talk) 22:20, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Page name for temperature articles

To avoid flip-flopping between 'degree Fahrenheit' and 'Fahrenheit' or 'degree Celsius' and 'Celsius', I propose that we have a discussion on which we want. I see you have contributed on units of measurement, please express your opinion at Talk:Units of measurement. Thanks. bobblewik 22:48, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Userbox

I note your reaction to the loss of the anti-gender-neutral language userbox - Misplaced Pages talk:Userboxes/Grammar.

Do you intend to list it at Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Userbox debates? Avalon 05:39, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the comment. Just thought I'd let you know I listed the box. --Roofus 07:54, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Charles Arthur Uryan Rhys, 8th Baron Dynevor

You ask why I changed OBE to link to Order of the British Empire. Quite simply, OBE is a disambiguation page and, while it would be obvious to most users that the correct reference is to the honour rather than to "out of body experience" or the Ottawa Board of Education, it is better that the link goes direct to the correct page rather than through a disambiguation page like this.--George Burgess 10:07, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Ah, I see what you mean. It was of course supposed to be a pipe (now fixed). I was having some problems with my connection last night (hence 2 closely spaced edits when there should have been just one) and I did not notice that the | was missing--George Burgess 15:48, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Father Samuel and Your Userboxes

I left a note on the page talk as well as User:Williamwilliam's talk page for verification. The thirteen colonies userbox is hilarious, as well as anytime someone uses "miffed" :) TKE 01:36, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Two questions answered

Thanks for alerting me to that - I've answered the questions to the best of my ability. David | Talk 13:37, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Alex Douglas-Hamilton

Hi, I'm pretty sure Alexander Douglas Douglas-Hamilton, Marquess of Douglas and Clydesdale was born in 1976, not 1978 as in the article. Could you check your source on this? Cheers, JackyR | Talk 21:57, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

(I never know where to respond, on your talk page, or mine, so I've replied in both places.)

Hello, My source is The Peerage which itself cites;

Mosley, Charles (ed.) Peerage and Baronetage, 106th edition Burke's Peerage (Genealogical Books) Ltd, 1999), volume 1, page 1281.

Of course, it may be wrong. Do you have any clarification? Avalon 21:24, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, responded on my talk page after getting stuffed in the great General Tojo block (you don't want to know)... *sigh* JackyR | Talk 02:35, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Answers

To your first question - you can't do that. You can italicize titles within the text, but not in an article title. For your second question, I believe <blockquote> will do that. Adam Bishop 00:25, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Alternative enumerations

I remember wondering about that myself more than a year ago, and to this date, I haven't come across any Wiki code that would do that. Of course, this might just mean that I'm not as informed about this. Have you tried asking on the help desk lately? --HappyCamper 03:22, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I've asked your question at two different places... - let's see if anything interesting comes of it :-) --HappyCamper 03:35, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Text size problem

Hi. Have you checked the "text size" setting in your internet browser? It's quite easy to change this accidentially. For instance, in Internet Explorer you can change the text size setting by holding Ctrl down while you roll your mouse's scroll wheel. In Internet Explorer, go View - Text Size and select "Medium". I'm not sure what to do in other browsers, though.

If that doesn't fix your problem, try clearing you cache, as you may have a corrupted version of the site's CSS file. Hold down Ctrl on your heyboard and click "refresh" or "reload" when you're viewing a Misplaced Pages page.

I hope this has been of help. - Mark 13:33, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Briley brothers article

Found your edits to Briley brothers helpful, since I hardly knew where to start with that article. I'm not familiar either with the case or with the American justice system. Thanks. Itsmejudith 07:04, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Franciszek Salezy Dmochowski

Please read: Talk:Franciszek Salezy Dmochowski. Could you change it? Thanks

Jack Mckelvey

Hi Avalon, thanks for getting to this so quickly and wikifying it. Only five hours from me slapping the tag on it to you helping fix it up - a pretty good rate!

Cheers,

Lankiveil 08:19, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

River Cottage

Well thats TV for you... i mean to be truly honest as far as i know he didnt actually stay in the original cottage as much as the show would have you belived... it was used more as a set the a family home.. He has raised his family in Dorset but i think they have been at the house/farm a lot longer than you'd think. For the most part Hugh appeared at the cottage only for filming purpouses and left the rest of the maintainence to be done by his lackys. The same can be said for his RCHQ (which was originally my families Dairy Farm) though he would appear for some filming and at occasional events for the most part it was his set of cooks, groundkeepers, and stockmen that kept the thing running (even i looked after the polytunnels and the animals, and i also did parking at the events) --- Paulley 11:48, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Kokkhars and Gakhars

Hi there - I see you've been working on wikifying the Kokkhars page in the last few days. I've suggested that it would make more sense to just redirect this page to Gakhars -- any thoughts? Please see Talk:Kokkhars if you would like to chime in. Thanks for your help! Tim Pierce 16:18, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

List of Spanish political parties

Hi - didn't mean to cause any offence with my edits to List of registered political parties in Spain by geographic location. Removed the italics from the party names as although they are in Spanish they are official organisation names and as such for me that trumps the italics - took my lead from other pages including List of political parties in Spain - which could probably do with harmonising/merging with the other article (?). Where the dates are concerned I was preparing them to be tagged (I lost the will to live halfway through - and was intending to get back to it) according to what I understood of WP:DATE. I've now just read the section on ISO date formats - but personally I still prefer the 'standard' date format as this will allow unregistered users to see it in a more familiar date form (but that's my preference and I know rules aren't hard and fast). Out of interest, what criteria are you using to trim the list down? Madmedea 19:12, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Tried to figure out the puzzle of the foreign political party italics and from hunting around the rest of wiki - every page seems to have a different take on it. I'm easy either way! Yes those damn August 2006 articles - I noticed somebody else was attempting to hack away at them.... lost the will to live there as well and moved on to September! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Madmedea (talk • contribs) 19:34, 16 January 2007 (UTC).

Your edit to Sources Chrétiennes

Hi. I notice that in your edit to this article, you made a link to the page entitled "Lyons". This is a disambiguation page, and contains lots of people/places/companies which all share that name. Which one are you talking about? Please replace this link to direct to the appropriate article. For more information see WP:DPL Klower 06:24, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

your notes on Small and Large Scales

I was surprised to see an Australian contribution to the talk on million / thousand million / milliard debate in the Talk page for the “Long and Short Scales” entry , and further surprised to see that some Australians long for the days of yore when “milliard” held sway. I added two contributions there which I have appended here “for your perusal” as I believe it is proper to say. I too am an Australian, and while not a Monarchist, I am not particularly anxious to see the Queen go, as I believe that the ascension of Charles and Camilla will accomplish that in due course. Neither I am particularly a Yankophile, although I do find it puzzling when sentiments like yours concerning allegedly slavish adherence to American trends are broached. We are, it appears to be solely slavish to British customs and traditions. The notion that Australia is simply incapable of generating custom or tradition of its own is so pravalent that most of Australian cultural life outside of sport is effectively paralysed. As a small example, consider some idiomatic names for currency before 1966, Prior to that time, Australians happily spoke of a tray (for a threepence), a zac (for a sixpence), a bob (for a shilling), and a quid (for a pound)- even if all these were imported British idiom. Decimal currency was introduced in Australia in 1966, and 41 years later there is not a single familiar term for any of the new coins or notes. Why not? Because Australians have been taught that unless we are TOLD what to say or do by or overseas betters, then we would simply be “up ourselves” if we were to invent words, or phrases.

American culture has to its credit Edgar Allen Poe, Emily Dickensen, Walt Whitman, Herman Melville and many others, who cannot be matched by any Australian writers. This fact alone renders it risible that we are exhorted to turn away from American custom. We could do well to learn from American manners and mores concerning invention on every level. Here's an example of what I am driving at. Contrary to popular opinion, the term ketchup or ketsup is not a stupid American whimsical name for tomato “sauce”. Ketchup comes from the East Indies, as the Indonesian sound of the word would suggest. It was a spicy condiment that gained currency in the Old Dart. The popularity of the new world fruit the tomato, soon meant it became an ingredient in these traditional condiments, and thus: “tomato ketchup”. As you see, the term has a long, interesting and immaculate pedigree. On the other hand, “tomato sauce” has the characteristic Australian hestitancy to ever come up with a new word for a new thing, lest someone tell us to “pull our head in”. “Sauce” covers a large and ambiguous field. It could concievably refer to a paste, a puree, or a number of other sauces. Yet the simple and practical use of the word ketchup brought howls of dismay from those who thought we were “slavishly following” American foolishness. The same goes for “French Fries”, which true-blue Aussies must patriotically avoid. Indeed, we are expected to keep referring to “chips”. That would be fine, except the same word is used for what otherwise are called “crisps”. Then, in order to avoid the “french fry”, and in order not to appear like a “galah” in coining a new word, we must rely on “hot chips” and “cold chips”, which must certainly go some way to displaying the lack of daring and imagination that so afflicts our culture.

A patriotic Australian friend of mine, who is also gifted musically, recently told me he had always been puzzled as to what happened to musical culture in Australia. In the maligned nation of the US, they invented Jazz, Country and Western, Tin Pan Alley, Soul, Gospel, Bluegrass, Rock and Roll etc. New variants keep emerging: Disco, Rap, Hip Hop... Now, whatever happened to Australian music? There is just a giant gaping hole there. And yet a significant portion of our early white residents were Irish convicts, and Ireland is renowned for its folk music. I would venture to say that what happened to this strain of potential culture is what happened to just about everything else in Australian history. The pursuance of such a musical tradition might be seen to remind us of our convict heritage,and so was quickly and forcibly buried. In fact, instead of trying to build a new and vigorous culture on our British roots, the call came that we should be “more British than the British”. This can best be seen in the University of Sydney' s motto: “Sidere mens eadem mutato”: or “the same knowledge under a different Heavans”, a notion so lacking in ambition or gumption that its pursual would have meant that no new knowledge from research or otherwise could ever come into being, as it would not then he the “same knowledge” as that of the parent country. I do not know if there has been much study of pre-Federation Australia, but it appears to me that there was a radical and innovative element to it – and with quite some sympathy for the American Revolutionary experience, their Bill of Rights, and their passion for democracy. All this was largely smothered with the advent of Federation, when a fully lickspittle adoration of all things British came into force. It had that special feature of all reactionary colonial outposts of imperial powers. The colony began to believe that the Mother Country was the absolute epitome of all virtues, and any deviance from them was at best churlish, at worst, treacherous. As such, Australians would be standing up for the National Anthem (not our own of course) in cinemas across the land, even when the practice had, somewhat embarrassingly, been discontinued in the Mother Country.

I should not be misunderstood as denigrating the values of the British Way. I do however, think that the kind of loyalty that you show towards it goes beyond anything reasonable and useful. It is boundless and partisan support which has no question at all about the value of ANY aspect of British history or tradition, and allows for so very little indigenous development of our own culture. It is precisely this attitude that saw children of my generation being taught that Australian history outside of its glorious compliance to British demands at Galipolli, were affairs best forgotten, that Australian letters and poetry were intrinsically inferior to anything written in the Old Dart. Gradually, Australia became a sleepwalker, uninterested in itself, scared to look at itself, snobbish about its English antecedents and ashamed of ones that weren't. Have you ever thought how it came to be that the U.S. has 50 states all with wonderful names, and yet most of ours are named after points of the compass?

Lastly, might I say that I am astounded as to how you could possibly imagine that an Imperial Federation of Britain could ever have been possible. Even today, Australia, and I imagine I speak for you as well, do not in any real sense feel themselves to be part of a British Commonwealth. Of course, we don't mind thrashing them at the Commonwealth Games, but apart from that, the less we have to do with them the better. Australians do NOT regard themselves as being in the same boat as the Indians and the Africans. They see themselves as whites who are literally the sons and daughters of pioneers and even convicts. Most of the others are members via the historical fact that they were defeated by a foreign invader, and then colonised. On top of this insuperable fact, you might give thought to the fact that Australia's population is the merest fraction of that of the African and Indian Commonwealth components. India has a BILLION (or thousand million as I imagine you would put it) people by itself. We have 20 million. Our voice would simply be drowned out. Myles325a 12:27, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

(Below is a note I made earlier today, and another follows this one.)

I know Misplaced Pages follows a non-partisan policy with regard to spelling and word-usage, but there comes a time when excessive loyalty to this principle can become a fetish and a burden, and such is the case here. There is such a thing as the natural atrophy of usage where customs, experience and new needs combine to favour some usages over others. In such cases, some variants become first “rare”, then “obsolete', then “archaic”. Over time, the “American” use of million, billion and so on, has comprehensively displaced the notion of “milliard” and “billiard”, the latter often not even included in many dictionaries. There is an excellent reason for this, whose meaning has exercised me of late, but wherefore I know not. I began to notice that there are numerous instances where the “American billion” makes itself useful, but comparatively few (outside of astronomy) where the old “English billion” does so, although I am not quite sure why. The Earth's population is about 6 billion for example, and having to say 6 thousand million is a nuisance. The populations of China and India are both about a billion (US). Virtually every numerous aspect of Planet Earth can conveniently be expressed in US billions and (occasionally) trillions. Had the English / French system prevailed, and considering that milliard never took off, there would be no new word to deal with numbers between a million and 999 thousand million, a silly state of affairs. I would be intersted to hear any views about why so many parameters can employ US billions, from social and economic and financial studies (one can have US “billionaires” but hardly English ones for example), and the natural sciences, and so few are amenable to the English billion and its offshoots.

Please, let a hundred flowers bloom and a thousand thoughts contend on Misplaced Pages, but let's not flog a dead horse. Some things are better left to rest in peace. Myles325a 12:27, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

For a subject as well-masticated as this one, it is surprising that an important detail has not been more adequately dealt with. Experiment: go and ask a naïve subject: “Which is bigger, an American Billion or an English Billion?” If they reply correctly that the English one is, then ask them “By how much?” You will probably find that most people don't know. In fact, from my experience, most people, hearing the phonemic set “illions”, just assume that the amounts are very large, but there is not much to be made of it. In fact, an English Billion is a THOUSAND TIMES larger than the one adopted by her erstwhile colony. That would throw anybody's paperwork out. The gap grows more immense as the numbers become larger. The English Trillion is a full MILLION times larger than that of the US. And so it goes, the discrepancy between the English and American variants grows exponentially as the hierarchy ascends. This fact is the most salient in the whole discussion, and while it is implicit in the material included in the table, it would be illuminating to add a column on the far right which would spell out the scope of this progression

Myles325a 12:27, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

moved from imus talk page

Question

Editors are attempting to keep side discussion off of that talk page, but in case you missed the response to your question which has been removed by another editor, here it is Tvoz |talk 19:22, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

At the risk of offending someone, can you tell me what Imus meant by "nappy headed"? I understand that a "ho" is a prostitute. Outside of the United States a nappy is a cloth you put on a baby's arse. What was Imus' meaning? Avalon 14:08, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

See natural hair. THEemu 14:22, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I actually agree with you about what you said on my page - it seemed like a genuine question to me, which is why I moved it here. The problem is that the Imus articles have the potential to be wildly overrun by arguments about him rather than about the articles, so another editor felt strongly about moving anything off that wasn't directly related. I'm sympathetic, having spent the last day or two trying to keep actual juvenile nonsense off ("he apologized pubically", for example). But then take a look at what's going on on Kurt Vonnegut if you have any interest ... it's been quite a day! Cheers Tvoz |talk 22:48, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

My apologies, I should have made sure to drop you a reply on this talk page. The article does link to the answer:

On his "Imus In The Morning" show on April 4, 2007, in a conversation with Bernard McGuirk and by phone with former cast member Sid Rosenberg, Imus referred to the Rutgers University women's basketball team as "nappy-headed hos.

If you think that non-American readers would benefit from an explicit overview of what the term means, feel free to add that to the article. — coelacan — 22:56, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Orography of Cúcuta

I notice that you made some edits to the article Orography of Cúcuta today (17 April 2007). I'd appreciate it if you would look at the discussion on the talk page, not much of a discussion so far, just my rambling comments, but any input would be appreciated. Also, do you know where I could post notice of this problem (if it is a problem) to encourage more discussion? --Bejnar 18:27, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Wikifying and disambiguation

Hi, Avalon

I noticed that you've been doing a lot of excellent work wikifying. Kudos on that. When wikifying Thomas Wilson (shipping), you created a link to Britain, which is a disambiguation (dab) page. Just in case you don't already know, Misplaced Pages articles are not supposed to link to dab pages. They should link directly to the relevant articles. Dab pages are for users who type something into the search box that has more than one possible article related to it. There's currently a project going on, similar to the wikifying project, to get rid of the links to dab pages. You can find out about it here. Unfortunately, each time the bot does a dump, the pile gets bigger. I'd hate to think that the success of the wikifying project is contributing to the problem. If I'm telling you something you already know, and it was just a one-time error, please excuse the interruption. If you think others in the wikifying project need to be alerted to this, please share it with them. Thank you for your kind attention and happy editing. --Steven J. Anderson 03:33, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Walter brookes spong

I noticed your edits at Walter brookes spong. The page should be moved to Walter Brookes Spong, as the full name should be capitalized. Apperently, I can't move it because I'm a new editor, so I am giving you the "honor." --Brewcrewer 22:54, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Franz Josef Strauß

Might I ask you to take a look at the new discussion going on at Franz Josef Strauß? Yes, it is an ancient topic (the use of ß on en-wiki), but this is one of the most prominent articles in which this issue is of significance. Given your experience, your input would be very much appreciated. Unschool (talk) 01:39, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Idiot code

A proposed deletion template has been added to the article Idiot code, suggesting that it be deleted according to the proposed deletion process. All contributions are appreciated, but this article may not satisfy Misplaced Pages's criteria for inclusion, and the deletion notice should explain why (see also "What Misplaced Pages is not" and Misplaced Pages's deletion policy). You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{dated prod}} notice, but please explain why you disagree with the proposed deletion in your edit summary or on its talk page. Also, please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Even though removing the deletion notice will prevent deletion through the proposed deletion process, the article may still be deleted if it matches any of the speedy deletion criteria or it can be sent to Articles for Deletion, where it may be deleted if consensus to delete is reached. If you agree with the deletion of the article, and you are the only person who has made substantial edits to the page, please add {{db-author}} to the top of Idiot code. ruinia (talk) 22:30, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Invite

As a current or past contributor to a related article, I thought I'd let you know about WikiProject University of Florida, a collaborative effort to improve Misplaced Pages's coverage of University of Florida. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks and related articles. Thanks!

Jccort (talk) 02:48, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

The Working Man's Barnstar

		The Working Man's Barnstar
		I award you this barnstar for wikifying a number of articles. utcursch | talk 04:07, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Tuff Gong discography

Another editor has added the {{prod}} template to the article Tuff Gong discography, suggesting that it be deleted according to the proposed deletion process. All contributions are appreciated, but the editor doesn't believe it satisfies Misplaced Pages's criteria for inclusion, and has explained why in the article (see also Misplaced Pages:What Misplaced Pages is not and Misplaced Pages:Notability). Please either work to improve the article if the topic is worthy of inclusion in Misplaced Pages or discuss the relevant issues at its talk page. If you remove the {{prod}} template, the article will not be deleted, but note that it may still be sent to Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion, where it may be deleted if consensus to delete is reached. BJBot (talk) 10:00, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Only a .... could say something like the Thirteen Colonies User Box

LETS NOT HAVE A BIG FIGHT BUT ONLY AN ANTI AMERICAN RACIST COULD SAY SOMETHING LIKE THAT IN THE THIRTEEN COLONIES USER BOX. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Roman Emerald Pirate (talk • contribs) 00:58, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

RE:Please advise

Hi there Avalon.

You are welcome to archive your talk page at any time or using roughly any criteria you use, more information can be found at Help:Archiving_a_talk_page.

Basically you shouldn't mess with the appearance of your talk page to intentionally hide/ignore warnings or users in dispute with you. You are welcome to link to a self created archive (such as, say, User_talk:Avalon/Archive 1. You can use your move tab to move the whole page history and start clean again, or you can copy and paste the contents as long as you point to where they came from to comply with the GFDL. Let me know if you have any further questions, it's a fairly straight forward procedure despite my complicating it with reason :) Happy editing to you. Keegan 04:10, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for wikifying the Avian ecology field methods article. I had done my best, but I'm new at wikifying, so I waited for someone else to check it over for me before I removed the tag. Thanks for doing that. --Megalodon99 Talk 12:23, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Sul Information

I asked the rename to the user:Avalon in wikis test.wiki, pt.wkquote, pt.wkpedia and commons, the rename was made in test.wiki, pt.wkpedia and commons, wait the rename pt.wkquote and unify your account , In the commons to talk the crat PatriciaR to have the account password. The account I used but I was already renamed to assign the account to you, greetings. Sir Lestaty de Lioncourt ✉ 21:33, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

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