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Is "Journal of Cosmology" a WP:Reliable source ?

Is JoC a WP:RS? See the discussion at Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Journal_of_Cosmology (March 2011)

65.95.15.144 (talk) 04:53, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

The blog source

Blogs are not a reliable source per WP:RS. I have tried to remove the Myers blog source from the article, but it has now been reinserted. Can someone please remove this again? Nanobear (talk) 17:03, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Blogs are not always unreliable. If they are written by an established expert in the field (or if they are the blog of a major newspaper, like the Los Angeles Times blog) then they are reliable. I don't know anything about this source, so I couldn't say whether it is or is not reliable, but I just wanted to point that out. Silverseren 17:09, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
In this article, the blog entry is used as a source for some pretty heavy claims. This is unacceptable unless someone can prove this blog is an RS. It should either be removed or replaced with a source that is clearly a WP:RS. Nanobear (talk) 17:14, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
Pharyngula (blog) seems to indicate that it is written by an expert in the field. Silverseren 17:24, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
It could be an RS, but I'm still very sceptical. The blog is advertised as "evolution, development, and random biological ejaculations from a godless liberal" - doesn't sound very scientific or professional. Judging from PZ Myers' article, he seems to be mainly notable for his anti-creationist views and for his participation in the infamous American religion vs. science discussions. There is no evidence that he is (in the scientific community itself) one of the top names of his field - which I feel should be a requirement for his blog to be considered as an RS. Nanobear (talk) 17:39, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
Sounds like you should take this to the Reliable Sources noticeboard for a review. Silverseren 17:40, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
  • Looks to me that the blog is notable (because of the engendered controversies), but really not reliable (because too opinionated for my taste). --Crusio (talk) 18:01, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Myers' blog is cited as a reference for the statement that "While the journal describes itself as peer-reviewed, several people have questioned the integrity of the process." I just searched thru the blog for the words "peer review" and all I found was the following "While they're at it, maybe they should try publishing it in a journal with some reputation for rigorous peer review and expectation that the data will meet certain minimal standards of evidence and professionalism." While these words do indeed imply that Myers is not happy with the rigor of peer review at Journal of Cosmology, there is no mention of "integrity". And is Myers "several people" or is he one person? Kalidasa 777 (talk) 00:07, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Facts instead of personal opinions

The description regarding "Journal of Cosmology" has been quite tendentious, presenting just negative critics. The manuscript must be rewrote in order to take a neutral position. The negative critics (e.g. "While the journal describes itself as peer-reviewed, several people have questioned the integrity of the process" shall be pointed out in the section "Reliability" together with positive points that have been ommited until now, like the renowed scientist that have been publishing. In fact, they are not SEVERAL but just SOME people.

Why consider this point obteined in blog sites (which represent just personal opinions) and not consider the fact that several renowed scientists have been publishing in this journal ??? Why not consider the fact that Sir. ROGER PENROSE edited the April. vol ??? Why not consider the fact that the journal is also indexed in several other databases ??? Altogether, these facts ratify the mediocricity of how the article has been edited. It certainly represent the personal view of these "authors", who with sure are not scientists. I have revised other descriptions of scientific journals in wikipedia and I do not see this kind of thing. Changes must be made or the article shall be removed from Misplaced Pages. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BoomerRev (talk • contribs) 21:45, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Science isn't done by renown. That Bob published in the journal does not absolve it of its flaws. There's no positive praise simply because there is none to be reported, and the opinions reported are those of biology experts who completely destroys the claims of Journal of Cosmology and points out things that are would have been picked up by any rigourous peer review process. Journal of Cosmology is viewed as a journal for cranks and crackpots to publish their claims when they can't publish them in a proper journal, so that is what is reflected by the article. No proper journal would write things like

Religion vs Science Richard Hoover's paper was received in November. It was subjected to repeated reviews and underwent one significant revision. Hoover's paper is further evidence that life is pervasive in this galaxy and exists on astral bodies other than Earth. The alternative view is life exists only on Earth, and originated on Earth, as described in the Jewish and Christian Bible and which is the official position at NASA. We believe the choice is simple: Religion vs Science. The Journal of Cosmology is devoted to promoting science. (emphasis mine)

or place an in-article advertisement for a book written by the article's author on the same topic. Or spend every third line trying to convince their reader that they are a prestigious journal. If you have to say your prestigious, you're not. Or when you accuse people people of being terrorists when they disagreed/refuted article published in your journal.
Neutral does not mean "does not take sides" (see WP:UNDUE and WP:GEVAL). Likewise a list of who published in the journal, guest editors, etc... is something that has no place in this article (or any journal's article). Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 03:50, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
While I cannot support BoomerRev's rewrite, I agree the article is quite tendentious. Almost 100% of the article text is criticism; the whole purpose of the article seems to be show that the journal is unreliable. In this respect, it resembles an attack page. That most of the criticism is sourced to unreliable sources (blogs) doesn't help. Whatever we think of the journal, this is clearly not the way to write an encyclopedic article. Nanobear (talk) 04:15, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Blogs written by experts are reliable sources. To quote from WP:SPS:

Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications.

This is the case here. The criticism is also given due weight (take for example Clara Moskowitz (7 March 2011) "Scientists Dubious Over Claim of Alien Life Evidence in Meteorite", Space.com; or ) which pretty much uses the same sources as this articles ) since the journal is primarily known for publishing all sorts of crank nonsense and pseudoscience. There's a reason it won the Pigasus Award you know. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 17:51, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

I disagree. The blogs are used here to insert harsh claims such as "... it isn't a real science journal at all, but is the ginned-up website of a small group of crank academics obsessed with the idea of Hoyle and Wickramasinghe that life . You should not simply continue to edit war: either try to find a compromise version or drop it. Nanobear (talk) 18:00, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
It certainly is. If it weren't, Space.com wouldn't have quoted PZ Myers and ScienceBlogs/Pharyngula directly on this. Nor would Nature consider Pharyngula one of the top science blogs out there. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 18:10, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
If "... it isn't a real science journal at all, but is the ginned-up website of a small group of crank academics" is a wide-spread view, it should be easy to provide sources with 100% comply with WP:RS providing the same info. Please do that instead of edit warring to reinsert sources which are clearly a violation of WP:BLOGS. Nanobear (talk) 18:25, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
The journal won the damned Pigasus Award for its pseudoscientific nonsense; the top blog of ScienceBlogs, acknowledged by Nature as being one of the top science blogs ever (in fact the top science blog of 2006), as reported by Space.com; countless scientists have lambasted the journal (including people who published in J. Cosmology), and so on. What more in the world could you possibly want? It doesn't get more solid than this.
Read WP:SPS yourself, I've quoted the relevant passage above and I'll requote it again (although I wonder why since it becomes increasingly apparent that you don't read neither what I write, or what you policies/guidelines you quote)

Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications.

Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 18:31, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
Try to remain civil, please. From WP:SPS: "Take care when using such sources: if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else will probably have done so." If these (harsh) opinions are worth inserting here and if they represent a widespread view, it should be easy for you to find non-blog sources providing the same information. Try to do this instead of edit warring and becoming incivil, please. My personal view is that blogs should almost never be used as sources. Nanobear (talk) 20:21, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
Blog sources are perfectly fine if they meet the reliability criterion, which this one does. Nature considers it reliable, Space.com considers it reliable, PZ Myers a recognized biology expert and science advocate. Your argument is that all blogs are unreliable, which is pure nonsense and discredited by WP:SPS, the very policy/guidelines which you justify yourself by.

Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications.

Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 17:43, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
Headbomb, just understand one thing here: If you have bad feeling about this journal, you should create your own blog and write whatever you want about it. There you can put all your negative emotions and use any bad language you wish.
BUT PLEASE UNDERSTAND (!!!): This is not the way to write an encyclopedic article. Just read the description of other scientific journals. This kind of article is not allowed in Misplaced Pages. Thus, we cannot allow you to do that.
The current version described by myself and improved by Crusio and Nanobear represents the way to write such article. It briefly describes the Journal and contains recent relevant information like the Hoover paper controversy and the Pigasus Award, but not been tendentious, just informative, like an encyclopedic article shall be. (Kindly, BoomerRev). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.18.33.234 (talk) 20:08, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

This is not the description of most journals because most journals are not like the Journal of Cosmology. This "kind of article" is perfectly allowed in Misplaced Pages since articles need to reflect a neutral point of view and due weight given to the relevant viewpoints. This significantly under represents the degree to which Journal of Cosmology is distrusted amongst the scientific community. If my views on the journal were present in the article, it would be much more scathing than what those sources report. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 20:28, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

As a side note, there's also no need to lecture me on what a "proper" journal article should be since I probably wrote more articles on journals than anyone save perhaps Crusio. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 20:34, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Headbomb, just don`t take to the personal side. I am not an advocate of this Journal. In fact, I agree that this journal has negative points. Yes, there are some papers, in my personal opinion, kind of odd to my knowledge. But at the same time, there are interesting and well written papers from renowned scientists.

I just think in Misplaced Pages we cannot choose just one side. An encyclopedic article must be neutral. Our job here is just to be informative. (BoomerRev) —Preceding undated comment added 00:48, 14 June 2011 (UTC).

Misplaced Pages does not "choose one side", Misplaced Pages chooses to reflect what is written in reliable sources the consensus of experts. Find me reliable sources that says this journal is not a complete joke, and then you'll have a point. Until then the only thing your doing is give undue weight to the idea that this journal is seen at anything other than a joke. If the critics would have been milder, then the articles would reflect those milder critics. However the critics have not been mild, and the article should reflect this. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 17:33, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

opinion

Orange Mike asked me to take a look. I decided to examine the journal, completely independently of the discussion above. The contents are a very wide mix, mostly speculation, but containing some articles which might be dignified as theory, and some as observations. The topics range from cosmology to space exploration to biological evolution, the part I am best qualified to judge. I do not find the contents nonsense, at least not all of it. The panspermia theory of the origin of life is a respectable minority theory, with distinguished supporters over a long period, and not in my opinion fringe. (My personal view is that I rather doubt it, but--unlike the situation 100 years ago, when there was no practical way to test it--it is a theory susceptible to experimental evidence. There is at present no way to rule it out a priori, and if it comes to opinion, I do not think anyone here has a right to claim a better judgement than Crick.)

Some of the articles in the journal are in my opinion remarkably unlikely , , some fascinatingly speculative or unusual , but some perfectly reasonable .

The standard of peer review and editing is obviously rather loose, but this is perfectly acceptable in a speculative journal such as this. I regard the articles usable as the speculations of their authors, with their authority derived more from their authorship than from the inclusion in the journal.

I consider the presentation in the article here quite biased, using negative wordings which denigrate unfairly the admittedly mixed value of the journal. I have fixed one of them to a more neutral wording. DGG ( talk ) 23:21, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Consider these two links: , . Then ask yourself what kind of journal would publish that. Or this (originally published at ).
The article is neutral with regards to how the world sees Journal of Cosmology. The issue here is not that panspermia is fringe or not (it's not the most popular view, but no one dismisses it with a back of the hand like say the steady-state universe), but that Journal of Cosmology is a fringe journal, with extremely low standards for publications.Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 01:13, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
Side note, before someone claims that Cosmology.com is independent see their logo. Or their contact information (http://cosmology.com/Contact.html rather than http://www.journalofcosmology.com/Contact.html). Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 01:17, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Contributors

Contributors who have written publications in the journal have included Rhawn Joseph who has argued for an Infinite universe in opposition to the Big Bang, and Chandra Wickramasinghe who has written in favour for panspermia. - I don't see why this is not aloud to be mentioned on the article? The Journal of Cosmology was set up by Schild who is also an proponent of an Infinite Universe and panspermia. Contributors to the Journal of Cosmology in no publication have they supported the mainstream Big Bang model. It needs to be made clear on the article about some of the publications which have been published. So far looking at the article there is not much information about what they have published and which scientists are contributors to the journal. Chemistryfan (talk) 17:01, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

List of authors are usually not included in journals because of their low-relevance (see Nature, Journal of the National Cancer Institute, Science, The Astrophysical Journal or Astronomische Nachrichten for examples, none of which have list of authors). See also Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Academic Journals/Writing guide and related discussions like Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Academic Journals#Editorial board listings, again. This one's a bit unusual since it's a journal of pseudoscience, so an exception might be warranted, but I personally don't see a reason to make an exception here. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 18:40, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
Journal of Cosmology is not pseudoscience, you should look at some of the contributors we are talking here about PhD astrophysicists and astronomers.Chemistryfan (talk) 19:27, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
It's at the very least a fringe publication whom no one takes seriously because of things like this and this. Having a PhD in science does not in any way guarantee that what you are doing is actually science. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 20:33, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
The author of that joke website and many of those books is Rhawn Joseph, a world topgrade neuropsychologist. Lets be honest here, the only reason the Journal of Cosmology has been deemed "fringe" etc is becuase it has a few publications advocating an infinite universe and dogma of the Big Bang will not allow it. If you want to read something serious from Rhawn Joseph you may want to read this: The Myth of the Big Bang, When Religion Masquerades As Science. Chemistryfan (talk) 21:04, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
Rhawn Joseph a top-grade neuropsychologist? Now that's a joke. That book of his is all the proof one needs to be convinced of that. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 21:13, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Criticism

"Skeptical blogger and biologist PZ Myers"

So a random guy with an internet blog has attacked the Journal of Cosmology and this guy is not an astrophysicist or educated in cosmology, so why do we need need the mention of PZ Myers on this article when he is unqualified on these matters, seems irrelevant. Chemistryfan (talk) 17:50, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

PZ Myers is hardly a "random internet guy". As for his mention, he (along with Phil Plait, Rosie Redfield, and Laura Battison) played a key role in the Hoover paper controversy, and were numerously cited as references by the media. Myers has more or less been the spearhead of this criticism, hence his prominent mention (J. Cosmology even felt it was necessary to give it a reply.) And in what world is a biologist unqualified to comment on questions of biology? Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 18:46, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
The other names you mention there who are critical of the Journal of Cosmology are on topic, but PZ Myers seems out of place becuase unlike all of the other critics he is not an astronomer, It does not matter what his opinion is on this matter, he is unqualified in this area and his opinions are irrelevant, he is not educated on cosmology so it does not matter what he thinks is "crackpot", he is not authority on matters such as this, what he offers is nothing more than an opinion. On a side note I am learning biology in college and my teachers have never even dropped the name PZ Myers to me, further research shows he has not even authored a biology textbook, he does not seem notable, I just looked at his wikipedia article page and he seems to be rather an odd man who spends his life debating creationism, it is weird that his name is appearing on this article relating to cosmology. Chemistryfan (talk) 19:54, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
The world is bigger than what you learn in college. This is fundamentally a question of biology, not of astronomy, and as such biologists are certainly more qualified than engineers or astrophysicists to comment on this. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 20:34, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
I have just noticed you have had along debate over this already with other users in the above talk page sections where users say you are not neutral on this topic. I don't think I am going to get anywhere with this so I will leave this article it is obvious you are fond of Myers. I have also noticed however that PZ Myers has called the work of Stuart Pivar "crackpot", this man obviously goes around calling everyone elses theories "crackpot", this is what scientists have resorted to is it? Chemistryfan (talk) 21:34, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
It's calling a spade a spade. It should come to no surprise that people who claim the modern evolutionary synthesis or that the Big Bang consist of religious pseudoscience are dismissed as crackpots by mainstream scientists. As for the above people, many were from Journal of Cosmology itself, and had huge conflicts of interest. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 21:41, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
This article is biased and this user is biased. Big Bang was invented by a Catholic priest, it is a religious doctrine. Headbomb on his userpage refers to Rhawn Joseph as "Dude's a complete crackpot", you have broken WP:NPOV, but on the subject of crackpots Headbomb believes the universe was created by the Catholic God and that something comes from nothing (abiogenesis, (Biblical Genesis) neither have been observed, these cranky views are not science. Headbomb another puppet brainwashed by the Church of Big Bang Nonsense. Rhawn Joseph laughs at the Big Church of Big Bangers. Eternaluniverse88 (talk) 09:11, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Blogs as sources

Are against policy. SPS cam only be used as sources on themselves. If you disagree take it to the RSN board. Darkness Shines (talk) 20:27, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

They are not against policies. Self published sources written by experts in the fields (and these are, and those are even award-winning sources, all of which were widely cited in the media for this controversy) are perfectly fine. See WP:SPS. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 20:43, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
No, and the way used is also a BLP violation. See the RSN board. Darkness Shines (talk) 20:45, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
I don't agree that blogs can't be used. Indeed, blogs are used, and they should be. Myers is a professional bio-type, and the question at issue is biology, so his professional opinion is relevant William M. Connolley (talk) 20:48, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
Indeed, and he himself has been widely quoted on this. See e.g. , and so on and so forth. And we should not censor the quote to make Myers' opinion look milder than it is. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 21:11, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
I'm happy to compromise, as long as Myers essential point is still present, the rest is not important William M. Connolley (talk) 21:14, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
I disagree, quotes should not be edited to make them milder than they actually are. The "crank" part is not some on-the-side remark but directly pertinent to his opinion of the journal. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 21:17, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
Connoley and HB you are both incorrect. WP:SPS cannot be used to violate WP:BLP. This is well understood by experienced editors. --75.218.93.189 (talk) 03:52, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Peer reviewed? Abstracted?

The journal itself claims to be PR, but can it be trusted? I don't know. It also claims to be abstracted in various place, and we copy it, saying The Journal of Cosmology is abstracted and indexed in Astrophysics Data System, Polymer Library, and ProQuest. So I found, for example, this . But that links to arXiv, not the journal http://journalofcosmology.com/Multiverse2.html. Furthermore the URL - "Multiverse2.html" - looks rather more like some-blokes-blog rather than a real journal with volume numbers and all that kind of stuff William M. Connolley (talk) 21:20, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Well J Cosmology is run by a bunch of kooks, so the peer-review process is probably "hey, does this further our ideas? If yes, approve, if not disapprove". But if you want something more tangible and backed by evidence, try , written by Battison who herself published in the Journal, and does not get a feeling that her articles were properly reviewed. There might be a peer-review process in place at J Cosmology, but it's probably a far stretch from what people would consider proper peer review. Otherwise stuff like this would never get published. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 21:25, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
As for abstracting, it's indeed in ADSABS, but I haven't confirmed ProQuest and Polymer Library myself. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 21:27, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
Connoley, with due respect I doubt that your interpretation of how URLs are supposed to relate to "volume numbers and all that kind of stuff" has very little to do with whether a journal is peer reviewed. You should learn to stick to the facts which on their face is that the journal is peer reviewed. Your WP:OR interpretations have no weight in the matter. --75.218.93.189 (talk) 04:03, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
You're stalking! How sweet. But mis-spelling my name is a failure of due respect. As to the issue: do we have anything other than their word that the journal is reviewed? Not that I can see. Is there reasonable doubt that it is? Yes, certainly there is. So we should replace "peer reveiwed" with "the journal asserts that it is peer reviewed", or somesuch William M. Connolley (talk) 08:00, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
Make sure you also change that for any other article about a journal that doesn't have an independent reliable source stating it is peer-reviewed. We have to be consistent and all. Silverseren 14:04, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
If you have suggestions of the other journals for which there is reasonable doubt, please let us know William M. Connolley (talk) 14:55, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
It has nothing to do with reasonable doubt. Without affirmation of peer-reviewed status by an independent entity, it is just the opinion of the journal that they are peer-reviewed. And, actually, Wired states they are peer-reviewed here. And they did sent out the paper to other experts for peer comment, so even if those comments were that the paper was ridiculous, that doesn't change the fact that it was peer-reviewed. Silverseren 16:56, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
It has everything to do with reasonable doubt. Reliable journals published by reliable publishers do not fuck with this stuff, because it would otherwise get them incredibly bad press (like is the case for Journal of Cosmology or Australasian Journal of Bone and Joint Medicine), so you can get basic and accurate information from them (such as indexing information, impact factor, peer reviewing process, author submission guidelines, etc...). Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 17:04, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
Except that other sources call them peer-reviewed, so no matter what you think they do in their peer review process, it doesn't change the fact that they are peer-reviewed. Your first comment in this section up above shows that you have an extremely negative, personal opinion about this journal and, yes, while they are fringe and unreliable, your personal comments on the matter imply that you cannot neutrally edit this topic and should probably excuse yourself. Silverseren 18:43, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
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