Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Kiefer.Wolfowitz (talk | contribs) at 12:37, 18 October 2011 (→Dishonesty: quote "too smart" discussion). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

In order to remain listed at Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/User conduct, at least two people need to show that they tried to resolve a dispute with this user and have failed. This must involve the same dispute with a single user, not different disputes or multiple users. The persons complaining must provide evidence of their efforts, and each of them must certify it by signing this page with ~~~~. If this does not happen within 48 hours of the creation of this dispute page (which was: 18:06, 8 October 2011 (UTC)), the page will be deleted. The current date and time is: 22:47, 30 December 2024 (UTC).

• Kiefer.Wolfowitz (talk · contribs · logs)

Users should not edit other people's summaries or views, except to endorse them. All signed comments other than your own view or an endorsement should be directed to this page's discussion page.

Statement of the dispute

This is a summary written by users who are concerned by this user's conduct. Users signing other sections ("Response" or "Outside views") should not edit the "Statement of the dispute" section.

Desired outcome

This is a summary written by users who have initiated the request for comment. It should spell out exactly what the changes they'd like to see in the user, or what questions of behavior should be the focus.

• User:Kiefer.Wolfowitz (KW) voluntarily agrees
  • to be more aware of civility in interaction with other editors, and to refrain from innuendo
  • to restrain himself when it comes to discussing younger editors, emailing oversight if he feels there is inappropriate personal information on wikipedia, and avoiding taking matters into his own hands
  • to state his views clearly and succinctly at RfA, instead of engaging in extended arguments, even if he feels strongly that a particular outcome is not acceptable
  • to be more careful when expressing concerns about copyright, taking any issues to the relevant noticeboards or contacting a trusted administrator privately, instead of making repeated public accusations.

Description

{Add your summary here. You must use the endorsement section below to sign it. Anyone is welcome to endorse this or any other view, but do not change other people's views. Editors writing this section should not normally add additional views below.}

Although a few editors have raised issues with User:Kiefer.Wolfowitz (KW), such as...

• User:Black Kite who raised maturity issues
• User:Cerejota who at ANI suggested KW's actions might indicate an issue with WP:CIR (such as using three edits to make one comment, and edit warring with an editor on the editor's own editor review)
• User:28bytes who also mentions the issue with edit warring.
• User:Vegaswikian who pointed out that KW's deletion nomination of Category:Peace Corps volunteers was a violation of WP:POINT
• User:Carrite at an ANI - Apparent personal attacks - had to remind KW that he could not remove sources just because he disagrees with them.

... this RfC does not focus on those issues, but instead is aimed at resolving three separate areas of particular concern.

Incivility

The incivility displayed by KW rarely reaches the level of personal attacks, but more often works at the level of innuendo. The comments he makes are generally obfuscated so that the common reader will think nothing of them. The issue comes from the innuendo being so commonplace, the failure to adhere to WP:CIVILITY, and the resulting detriment to the collaborative editing environment. Here is a sample of the comments;

• KW regularly refers to User:Demiurge1000 as DemiWit . As demi is derived from the Latin "dimenus" meaning "half", he is calling the editor a halfwit.
• KW has also referred to Demiurge1000 as "Ratatoskr". Misplaced Pages's article Ratatoskr says that Ratatoskr was a low status animal that, in Norse mythology, told slanderous gossip to a wyrm. Not, in itself, an outrageous attack, but inappropriate in a discussion where he claimed to be seeking to avoid conflict; and concerning when considered in conjunction with KW's stated views elsewhere on the status of other editors, where he explains that he regards another editor as "an inferior" and that "condescension is appropriate".
• Accusations of harassment, without evidence (see WP:AOHA)
• Accusations of "doing the bidding" of other editors (see WP:Meatpuppetry) "voluminous criticisms by Du1000's summoned clique" and "You came at the beck and call of your master, and did his bidding".
• Accuses Worm That Turned of not being a "serious" administrator, not experienced and doesn't know what he's doing.

Behaviour regarding younger editors

KW has very strong views regarding editors under the age of majority, and frequently this leads to disruption. Although the editors targeted have reacted with great restraint when faced with KW's behaviour, some of them stopped editing or greatly reduced their editing following incidents in which KW played a part; and there are also safety concerns regarding the possible impact of some of KW's statements.

One of the most egregious cases was at the RfA for Dylan620 - where he made a total of 79 edits - well over double the candidate's 32. This is clearly excessive. The edits included the question How are you performing in school?. Many of the edits had sneering edit summaries such as →Oppose: don't you feel better after an outburst of ressentiment after your sense of injured merit rather than mumbling "I didn't know" or "I don't understand"?Please write again. I care.; another example comment was extremely condescending "Rschen, please go to bed. Tomorrow try to find Hodge's penguin book on logic and start to read and work some exercises." It is, of course, permitted to Oppose an RfA on the grounds of age, and doubtless KW's intentions were good; but his behaviour went way beyond simply making a !vote and explaining the reasons for it. RfA candidates, and others taking part in the RfA process, should not have to endure this level of disruption.

Only a few months later, when the same editor added an asperger's userbox to his own user page (making clear from the edit summary that its addition was something to which he had given careful thought), KW reverted 5 times in 4 hours, against 4 different editors. He reverted Dylan620, reverted Strange Passerby, reverted Demiurge1000, twice, reverted Ryan Vesey. Even being generous and not considering the first edit to be a revert - that's still over the 3RR bright line. However, for some reason KW believed that he was justified because the other 4 editors started it. When he was warned about the edit warring - he ignored the warning and posted a return warning on Demiurge1000's page. When told unconditionally to stop, he suggested he had not reverted four times, and made curious comments about "young great apes" and "you should have read a proper dictionary", then attempted to claim that the other editors were the ones at fault (See WP:NOTTHEM).

Having been fortunate enough not to be blocked for this blatant edit warring on another user's userpage, KW reacted to advice about it from administrator User:Worm That Turned by suggesting it was an "indexing error", and suggesting that he would not discuss further. But KW then completely changed the tone of his reply with a misleading edit summary, appearing to call the admin a bore, and telling the admin that he wastes his mind.

An even more serious instance of KW's inappropriate behaviour regarding younger editors was Guoguo12's RfA, where KW used the fact that a teenage candidate had requested oversight to remove personal information from his own userpage, many months previously, as an argument for opposing the candidate. This has serious implications with regard to child protection on Misplaced Pages - it is very common that minors are encouraged to request oversight if they make a potentially unwise edit, and discouraging other minors from following that advice, in a highly public forum such as RfA, could put them at risk.

Accusations of plagiarism and copyright violation; lack of understanding of copyright

According to KW's own edit summaries, a task he undertakes is to "remove neoconservative digression beloved of sectarians and anti-semites". He feels articles related to certain USA political parties have an "ideological bias", which he solves by removing what he sees as OR/POV in them. The problems arise when KW follows his disgust at political views which he dislikes, with accusations of copyright violation or plagiarism against editors who wrote the material with which he disagrees.

Socialist Party of America

The first example of this was at Socialist Party of America. KW found a paragraph that, in his own words, drove him bananas because of statements about the party. One hour sixteen minutes later, he re-wrote his comments on the talk page to mention for the first time copyright violation and plagiarism, as well as COI. He then chose an editor to accuse of COI and plagiarism, User:Chegitz guevara, with sneering political comments. KW continued, with many more revisions of his own comments, to expound his personal views on the true history of the party, and to claim that "the SPUSA cabal" had created the article; "an abuse of the public's trust".

KW went on to state "This plagiarism was due to User:Peter G. Warner", as well as claiming Peter had committed multiple instances of it. Peter made a remarkably calm reply under the circumstances, but KW immediately responded, with unintentional irony, by accusing Peter of making personal attacks and of unreasonably questioning his (KW's) good faith.

KW made many more accusations of plagiarism against Peter. He started on the talk page of the article itself , and later included there the fantastic logic "nobody wrote that you had not committed plagiarism", but also spread his accusation across multiple venues, including bringing it up in a WP:POINTy manner at E2eamon's RfA , Peter's talk page, WQA after Peter protested KW's behaviour, and repeating the accusations at WT:Copyright problems.

Peter made clear, very early, that he considered the plagiarism accusation false. At this point KW should have stopped making further accusations in different locations, at least until he found an experienced editor who agreed there was a problem. Instead, when challenged, he admitted that he knew the potential impact of his accusations against an academic editing Misplaced Pages under their real name; "I and Peter are both academics, and we are both well aware of the seriousness of plagiarism." (KW does not use his real name.) To continue the accusations under these circumstances, after multiple warnings, verges on harassment.

Not only that, but KW's own analysis of the alleged plagiarism was tenuous at best. KW had to remove large parts of the text in order to find similarities between a few isolated fragments, and it was clear that the material added by Peter presented similar ideas - not matching words or even structure. The closest matching phrase was "Shachtman and his lieutenant, Michael Harrington" - and since many of those words are names, the worst issue was the word "lieutenant".

Socialist Party USA

KW has also made accusations of plagiarism without presenting any evidence - again regarding a U.S. political party - against User:TrustIsAllYouNeed. Regardless of whether there were indeed issues with the material contributed by that editor, an accusation without any evidence is unhelpful and uncivil.

Freedom in the World

KW had a run in with the retired, long-standing administrator and content contributor, User:Rd232. Once again, KW's initial concern seemed to be the political point of view of the text - his first complaint was to suggest there was "POV pushing" - and once again he followed this with accusations of copyright violation. Rd232 had to come out of retirement to deal with this. KW even violated copyright himself by copying large swathes of a book onto WP to test for copyright (admins only).

Again KW left an inappropriate copyright warning - but this time he left a speedy deletion request on part of the article, completely misunderstanding the purpose of the tag. The issue was resolved by User:Moonriddengirl, from whom Rd232 had sought advice on dealing with the accusations, and who said "this certainly doesn't look to be a flagrant problem by any definition", "the content should be tweaked", and "The blanking for a week is unnecessary". KW followed her comments by accusing Rd232 of incompetence, and claiming - just as he had done with Peter - that Rd232's protests at the accusations were personal attacks and "violations of AGF".

John F. Banzhaf III

Further evidence that KW does not fully understand copyright was when he copied and pasted text from within Misplaced Pages without attribution (Kiefer's copy & original edit). He may have done similar elsewhere, as he was even mentioned he was "cannibalizing other articles". Copying text without attribution is in violation of the WP:CC-BY-SA license, and therefore against editing guidelines.

Applicable policies and guidelines

{List the policies and guidelines that apply to the disputed conduct}

1. WP:COPYVIO
2. WP:CIVILITY
3. WP:AOHA
4. WP:NPA
5. WP:EW
6. WP:POINT

Evidence of trying and failing to resolve the dispute

(Provide diffs of the comments. As with anywhere else on this RfC/U, links to entire articles aren't helpful unless the editor created the entire article. Edit histories also aren't helpful as they change as new edits are performed.)

Attempts by certifier Worm That Turned

1. Discussions at WP:ANI archived here
2. Suggestion of a one to one workshop - - which although KW was against, he did participate in
3. The one-to-one Workshop, where instead of discussion, KW called some of the issues "laughable" and instead asked for Worm That Turned to be sanctioned. It is unclear who he was asking to impose the sanction, since Worm That Turned had proposed this as a one-to-one discussion. At this point, the Workshop discussion was regarded as a failure.

Regarding this RfC:

• KW suggested that an RfC was a "threat"
• KW raised the RfC at the Administrator's noticeboard, an hour after discussion of it had been closed at WP:ANI, without informing Worm That Turned.
• KW refused to "take part" unless a "serious" administrator (implying Worm That Turned was not one) approved. He went on to state that Worm That Turned was inexperienced and that he doesn't know what he's doing
• When offered an attempt to solve this informally - on a one to one basis - KW attempted to dictate how any discussion regarding problems should take place. His unreasonable terms included the fact that the entire discussion should be by email and that no RfC would be called for 2 months
• KW attempted to deflect the RfC/U by asking for an interaction ban with both Demiurge1000 and Worm That Turned.
  • Prior to warning KW for his 5RR offence, KW and Worm That Turned had only positive interactions, to the extent that KW put a "strong support" on Worm That Turned's RfA and Worm That Turned gained an oppose vote for strongly agreeing with KW; so there was little grounds for claiming that the suggested interaction ban served any other purpose than to prevent the RfC.
  • KW implied that the interaction ban was the suggestion of User:fetchcomms - but Fetchcomms had specifically stated he was unaware of the history. He was only explaining how to make an interaction ban request.
  • Since that request, Demiurge has not interacted directly with KW, and only discussed him minimally, and Worm That Turned has kept his interactions with KW to a minimum. KW on the other hand has continued to instigate conversations at Worm That Turned's talk page, has posted images of the Spanish Inquisition referring to RfCs, and even brought up the topic at WT:RfA in a WP:POINTy manner.

Attempts by certifier Demiurge1000

1. Demiurge1000 requested that KW withdraw his accusations about Peter Werner. (KW's response was to suggest that he regarded the request as "a joke".)
2. Demiurge1000 asked at Misplaced Pages talk:Copyright problems for clarification on whether the material contributed by Peter Werner constituted copyright infringement.
3. Demiurge1000 sought clarification from KW, on KW's talk page, about his potentially misleading comments on Dylan620's RfA; also mentioning the issue of making dozens of comments on the same RfA. (KW's ultimate response to this query was "you are not welcome here, and I ask you not to post again", which he followed by an edit summary of "hide idiotic discussion".)

Other attempts

Users certifying the basis for this dispute

{Users who tried and failed to resolve the dispute}

1. Worm · (talk) 18:04, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
2. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 18:24, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
3. --Peter G Werner (talk) 02:37, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Other users who endorse this summary

1. Since Kiefer.Wolfowitz has previously stated that he will not take an RfC/U seriously unless it is "approved" an arb , and since I have previously attempted to explain that RfC's don't need Arbitrators to approve them, and he should really try to just resolve these problems by discussion I can endorse that this dispute has been ongoing for a while, and sadly attempts to solve this by less formal means has failed. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 20:17, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
2. TFD (talk) 00:18, 9 October 2011 (UTC) I have come across Kiefer Wolfowitz, and while he has a great deal of ability as an editor, his approach is non-collegial and disruptive.

Additional views by User:Worm That Turned

Reply to David Eppstein

I wholly agree that Kiefer should not be driven off the Misplaced Pages, we would lose a fine editor should that happen. I've no quibbles with his work on articles, however I do not believe we should turn a blind eye to the valid issues raised above.

Users who endorse this summary

1. Worm · (talk) 23:36, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
2. I really strongly agree with this. In fact, it seems to me that the way KW would be able to spend more time creating excellent encyclopedic content, and less time in unproductive disputes, would be to take seriously some of the suggestions that are made here - that's exactly the sort of advantage that the project (and everyone concerned) could gain from this process. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 14:48, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Reply to Kiefer.Wolfowitz

Kiefer, I note that you refer to your previous response as a response to a draft RfC which it was not, it had none of the formality of an RfC and was designed for us to discuss the issues. This RfC does cover similar topics, but goes much further into areas where there are issues, and details them for you to look at. Dismissing them as the same as a 1-1 dispute resolution is wholly unhelpful.

Regarding your other comments, your Voltaire quote did not appear to be self deprecating, nor was it obvious that it was Voltaire and the likelihood of me interpreting that quote from a 17th century philosopher as uncivil is much more reasonable than say, you interpreting a facepalm as a direct insult. As for the agreeing that I waste my mind comment, I'm unsure how me trying to reduce drama (remember, this was the first time that I had admonished you) is relevant.

It would be much more helpful if you actually responded to the diffs above than dismissing them with comments about our usernames.

Users who endorse this summary

1. Worm · (talk) 23:36, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
2. Unfortunately KW's response is mostly a big copy paste of his comments at the one-to-one workshop; combative comments that resulted in that workshop being abandoned. Not only were the comments almost entirely free of diffs to back up what KW said, but they also failed to address the points made then - and are even less relevant to the points made in this RfC/U. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 14:48, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Additional views by User:Demiurge1000

Better ways to handle copyright concerns

When looking at the problems with how copyright concerns have been handled, I think it is worth everyone's time to read this explanation by Moonriddengirl of some of her practice in dealing with possible copyright problems.

In particular, she says that in some circumstances, 'I have myself created new text to replace close paraphrasing concerns that I thought very tenuous. I don't use {{cclean}} on the talk; I don't rev delete; I don't in any way suggest the content is a copyright violation in my edit summary. I usually just note that I am "revising to separate further from source" or something like that.'

She goes on to say that 'I'd really like to see diplomacy and consideration on all sides of the copyright equation. We should approach the issue thoughtfully and try to keep emotions down. I think our best chance of creating a harmonious community, conscious of copyright issues and in agreement as to what constitutes acceptable content, will come in eliminating drama and shame from the equation insofar as humanly possible.' And finally, 'But by the same token, we don't want to burn people who try to help identify copyright problems if they are wrong; they, too, are trying to improve the project and need to be kindly brought in line with community standards.'

I think KW was indeed trying to improve the project, and (despite its billing in some venues) this RfC/U was not for the purpose of burning him or anyone else. But he needs to move from his wildly extreme methods of attacking editors over disputed use of source material, to be closer to Moonriddengirl's "harmonious community" approach. Even if he doesn't quite go all the way.

Users who endorse this summary

1. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 21:02, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Response

This section is reserved for the use of the user whose conduct is disputed. Users writing other sections ("Statement of the dispute" and "Outside Views") should not edit the "Response" section, and the person writing this section should not write a view below. Anyone is welcome to endorse this or any other view, but no one except the editor(s) named in the dispute may change the summary here.

I have responded at length before to these charges by Worm and Demiurge1000, at ANI, etc. I shall past my previous reply to Worm's draft RfC/U, from the copy saved in my user space.

Response to concerns

I regard this as another waste of time. I have already responded to most of these complaints weeks ago at ANI, where I defended myself against a serious of similar charges by Demiurge1000 and his summoned administrator, TWW. In retrospect, I viewed the attacks as unwarranted, so that the charges should just have been ignored. My conclusion that I should have ignored the drama was seconded by User:Reaper Eternal .

RfAs

WP:3RR

In years of editing, I have made exactly one 3RR violation, which I have stated was due to miscounting. A minor who had previously removed a statement that he had Aspberger's syndrome returned to Misplaced Pages editing after relatively little editing after a failed RfA, and added this information. I removed the Aspberger's information, as per the policy that minors especially should not disclose personal information.

In private e-mail, the user stated no objections to my action but stated that he wished to identify himself, having considered my concerns. The drama was due to other users, not to the minor being upset. I don't understand the fixation on this incident.

In this RfC, Worm again refers to this incident, now querying my explanation "indexing error". Let me explain. In a first course in computer programming, after students learn for loop they are warned about the most common programming mistakes, perhaps the most common being an indexing error, where they want a loop to execute N times but it executes either N+1 or exactly N-1 times.

My error was the N+1 mistake.

I had thought that Worm worked in computing and had a M.A./M.S. degree, so he would have understood "indexing error".  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 17:23, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

"General incivility", versus "Voltaire & self-deprecation"

• "General incivility " (sic.). I stopped responding to a conversation going nowhere, because I did not want "to explain everything", which is "the secret of being a bore" according to Voltaire. WTT seems to have failed to recall or to have Googled this famous phrase.

Striking-through text: Another RfA

There are two complaints about my revising exactly one text (each time) without using strike-throughs.

1. In the case where I responded to WTT, there had been no reply to my initial response and so no strike-through was obligatory.
2. In the second case, I judged that my edits might reduce the stress on an editor who had identified himself as suffering from depression and schizophrenia, and that the benefit from changing the text to reduce his stress sufficed. Nobody reverted that edit, or complained on that page that this edit had been improper: Perhaps others shared my judgment that a reduction in drama might have been beneficial? (I had asked in a private email to WTT that he avoid mentioning the case of this user, and regret that defending myself necessitates mentioning this on Wiki.)

Requests for Administratorship (RfAs): "Overzealousness"?

I have been accused of being "over-zealous" at RfAs. I have raised concerns about candidates' lack of substantive quality editing (and sometimes about paraphrasing of copyrighted material in apparent violation of WP policy), and the record shows that my concerns were shared by other editors, some of whom acknowledged my contributions.

RfAs of minors (non-adults)

A related complaint alleges that I have been over-zealous about "younger editors" at RfAs. I have repeatedly stated that minors should not become administrators because of (1) possible harm to minors, (2) legal liability of Misplaced Pages, and last & least (3) concerns about damage to Misplaced Pages. Many other editors have stated similar concerns. WP's discussion of the "perennial proposal" that administrators be adults states that WP editors are free to mention youth as a motivation for opposing minor candidates:

• Requiring that administrators be adults (a perennial proposal): "Editors are free to use age as a personal rationale for opposing adminship on RfA".

Political articles

Concerns about possible copyright violation or close paraphrasing: Duplicitous POV pushing?

• At least 2 editors accused me of using copyright violation tags duplicitously to advance some political agenda. WTT irresponsibly repeats this baseless charge, knowing that I have complained about his failure to stop such violations of AGF, NPA, when they had occurred before. I complained that WTT and the other editors failed even to learn enough to evaluate the editing dispute, but rather simply repeated this personal attack in ignorance. I have also noted that in every case where I diagnosed a possible copyright-violation problem, either I or other editors had to rewrite the paragraphs extensively: In many cases, the history of the article had to be deleted because of a copyright violation concern. In no case, has any such tagging resulted in an approval of the status quo. In this context, he can exhibit high disdain for sense of injured merit as much as he wants....
  • WTT cites my flagging concerns about a possible copyright violation for the Socialist Party of America, without quoting my listing of close paraphrasing of paragraphs from the "history" published by the Socialist Party USA:

"Disdain" (sic.)

• "Disdain for editors who do not get involved in his personal area of interest" This is just badly phrased and laughable.

On the contrary, I have scorned and I do scorn editors who have

• "shot off their mouths", accusing me of a political agenda,

• when they had shown no understanding of the content dispute and
• when they had failed to try to learn anything (for example by comparing the old version with contemporary reporting by the New York Times).

Such scorn is well deserved especially by Demiurge1000, who has accused me of "bullying" and PoV pushing.

WTT just repeats charges without investigating them, and he wants ... admiration?

Mistakes or silliness

Some of these other complaints are just silly.

Blocking for trolling

• I never asked that the editor be blocked for trolling. (The blocking offense was a religious personal-attack on an unpopular editor.)

"Better" than others

Some editors are better than others. For each editor, some edits are better than others.

Good edits contribute to the project of writing a high-quality encyclopedia for the public. Good edits come habitually from good editors.

From good editors, advice and criticism are welcome.

Bad editors seem to confuse WP with a role-playing game, a blog, or a graffiti canvass.

Overview

In short, this budding RfC/U seems to have been provoked by two clusters of issues.

1. First, there is a clique of editors devoted to RfAs and championing minors becoming administrators. This clique has been upset by my comments in RfAs, particularly about candidates who are minors or who do not have a record of contributions to traditional encyclopedia content. In particular, Demiurge1000 has been harassing me for months, interjecting himself whenever a hint of disagreement occurs between myself and other editors, at best distracting discussions but often inflaming drama. Demiurge1000 has refused to accept a no-interaction ban, which has been suggested independently by myself and (in this edit) by User:Fetchcomms.
2. There have been content disputes in American political history (where I have been doing clean up over the last few months). About these articles, RfA enthusiasts have each shot off his mouth without knowing or learning a thing, grossly violating AGF and NPA, fatuously indifferent to whether his charges be warranted or lies, shamed neither in his own or in his neighbors' eyes. For hounding me and wasting time, especially my valuable time, they deserve censure from the community.

Sincerely,  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 09:45, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

October update

I have read enough that I do not wish to participate in this RfC/U, because of gross dishonesty and hypocricy.

Dishonesty

1. Worm quotes me above, where I noted that he was too smart not to be contributing to content about more serious topics. What is surprising is that he fails to quote his response, following the objection by a friendly editor that I was being obnoxious. Worm wrote something like "Well, he has a point. I should write something. In fact, I am writing an essay for young editors, and I would like your feedback." I replied that I would be sincerely honored to comment on his essay:

If you want to impress anybody serious, stop this nonsense and write something useful. Seriously, you are too intelligent to be writing so many GA frivolous articles on food and none on any topic worthy of your attention. The world has so many problems, and so many solutions are known, and you could help by sharing your knowledge: You have a B.S. degree, apparently. Your mind is a terrible thing to waste.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 06:55, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Kiefer, don't let this get out of hand. I would suggest archiving this or deleting it or something. Perhaps Worm spends so much of his day doing whatever he does it is a nice relief to do some work on food pages. In addition, perhaps you should do some research before you run your mouth. Here are the pages Worm has created. Ryan Vesey (talk) 07:41, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

He's got a point there actually. I do "waste" my mind. I have two degrees, BSc Mathematics and MSc Autonomous Systems, but you'll see I've never edited a maths or comp sci article. I'm much more interested in the articles I write though, I don't think I've been interested in a mathematical theorem in years.

I'm happy to consider this matter closed also, though I may be revisiting here sooner or later to get an opinion on an essay I was thinking of writing. Worm · (talk) 07:49, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

(ec) I was quite familiar with the pages created, having participated in his RfA last weak without misfeasance. His intelligence and character suggest that we should all look forward to his future writings. :)

(ec) With great worms, comes great responsibility! ;)

WTT confirms my judgment about his intelligence and back-bone. Where is the article about modularization of computer programs, particularly about specifying each procedure's behavior without describing its implementation, for example? I was looking just last week to understand this post-"structured programming" innovation. (I have sometimes relaxed by writing about P. Orno and John Rainwater and in the last month by writing about the American democratic left, now recalling the sectarianism that cooled my interest decades ago.) :D

 Kiefer.Wolfowitz 07:57, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

I would honored if you would ask my opinion about any essay, WTT. Sincerely,  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 08:00, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Will do Kiefer. And no offence to the listening computer scientists that are always watching on Misplaced Pages... it's boring. It's bad enough I do it all day, that I'd do it as a hobby too is terrible. Worm · (talk) 08:01, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

2. As I explained to Worm, above, the Voltaire allusion was self-deprecating, suggesting that I did not want to be a bore by explaining everything. Despite my explanation and link to Google, he turns it around and writes that I was suggesting that "an administrator" was a bore.

A list of errors not to be pursued

Unworthy of an honest man but alas well established as a debating tactic of scoundrels

3. Opening the RfC with a list of my errors, which will not be pursued in this RfC, was a very short-sighted stratagem, which immediately raised concerns about the intent and appropriateness of this RfC, particularly since some of these events seem to be presented unfairly

It is hard to think of an opening that could be more damaging to their credibility---apart from a listing of their prior complaints (on my talk page, at ANI, at AN, at Worm's talk page, etc.), which were even more filled with errors and partiality: The kilobytes of attacks and falsehoods, carried on for a half year, and the 128 bytes of partial apologies should horrify any neutral reader.

The citations of Carrite, Cerejota, Black Kite, Vegaswikian deserve some context:

A. User:Carrite is cited as having to tell me that Busky's book could not be removed just on my whim. What Carrite wrote was different. Most importantly, after Carrite's comment (based on my knowledge of Carrite's integrity and knowledge), I have not removed Busky, which is the only source for some true statements. Where we could find independent reliable sources for other true statements previously attributed to Busky, we have listed them. (See Carrite's statement of "astonishment" below.) In fact, anybody who looks at this history can see a proper concern for writing a truthful article using reliable sources.

B. Cerejota removed my comment from his editor review, which was an unwarranted action; I proposed amending the editor review rules, to allow the editor review to be treated as virtual user-space. Happily this suggestion was implemented. Thus, this example is a fine example of WikiLawyering, in a positive sense.It is unfortunate that a cliched smear against the legal profession has become cited as policy on Misplaced Pages, by those who should know better, particularly Americans. After initial squabbles, Cerejota and I have exchanged good-humored declarations of mutual respect, in fact.

C. Black Kite immediately understood why I would have been so upset with a "talk to the hand" message, particularly in that context. At least he immediately accepted my apology on my page. Nonetheless, I made a longer apology on his talk page, because of contrition and a need to set the record straight everywhere I had made a mistake.

D. Vegaswikian cited and misunderstood WP:Point in the discussion of Vista volunteers and Peace Corps volunteers, and apparently Worm shares this confusion. The record shows that the other participants clearly understood the benefits of a parallel discussion of the two analogous organizations, so much so that several copied the same arguments to each. (Substituting words of the same type in an deduction, to test whether nonsense arises, is the basis of grammar and logic. It is also true that we reason better about familiar topics, so that it was better to discuss the case of the Peace Corps than VISTA.) Finally, I and another participant joked about the mental habits of mathematicians. Thus, in this case, I helped to frame a productive discussion that led to consensus; I was not disrupting Misplaced Pages in bad faith, the problem of WP:Point. It is really a disappointment that Worm cites this example, and continues to misunderstand WP:Point, particularly at something as time-consuming and emotionally charged as an RfC/U.

In all these cases, there is a repetition of an initial charge, without attempting to provide context or to examine the ensuing discussions.

Hypocrisy

This RfC is especially objectionable because of the sanctimonious hypocrisy of the nominators and their culled supporters. A few examples:

1. DU1000

A. "DemiWit" DU whines that I called him "DemiWit" 4 times some months back. Succoring DU would be more likely if he did not make a habit of insulting and baiting myself and Malleus F; in particular, DU has mocked Malleus's command of Latin (since an earlier account had a Latin error apparently) while engaging in personal attacks about Malleus's motivations following his RfA. Where has DU apologized to Malleus for mocking the name of his prior account? DU should choose a new username, whose writing does require heresy from monotheists, who must regard him as a blasphemous egomaniac.

1. Du has voiced his surprise that I interpreted "demiurge" neoPlatonically, although I did not need to spell out why his name was objectionable. Here is the first sentence of the lede for WP's article on demiurge:

   "The demiurge is a concept from the Platonic, Neopythagorean, Middle Platonic, and Neoplatonic schools of philosophy for an artisan-like figure responsible for the fashioning and maintenance of the physical universe."

   Here again, it is prudent to "test all things, and hold fast to that which is good", which in this discussion, again, ain't much. ~~~~~

B. DU is shocked, shocked that I could regard RD232 and himself as making personal attacks or violating AGF. Judge for yourself. This is what DU wrote on the page he linked above:

• "Kiefer seems to be stepping up his use of accusations of plagiarism and copyvio - I'm unsure if he understands the difference between the two - when he disagrees with content on political grounds."
• I quote RD232 to refute the accusations from DU, with distaste, because the RD232 is retired (and despite the following) tried to make peace and made statements of goodwill:

   :: (1) “Recently someone claimed that this section was a copyright violation , though the decoration of the section with POV tags is indicative of their real complaint, I think.”

(2) “ou continue to try to use allegations of copyright abuse to achieve your editing goals. your initial attempt to speedy delete an entire article because a section of it which you don't like supposedly has copyright issues....”

(3) “Frankly, this nonsense is disruptive enough, and prima facie bad faith enough....”

(4) “AGF is not a suicide pact, and I don't think I made any personal attacks. If your concern about a copyright problem was indeed genuine, then you made just about every mistake I can think of to make it look like bad faith.”

As this final quote shows, RD232 did make some AGF efforts and ended on a peaceful and good-willed note; beyond suggesting improvements for my editing, he made some suggestions for his own improvement, an extraordinary act in Misplaced Pages---at least on this page. I am sorry that my having to defend myself against DU's misrepresentations requires my quoting some AGF violations in his earlier comments.

2. The Four Deuces (TFD) TFD labels me a "disruptive editor". The reader should look at the examples of our interaction (like AGF/NPA violation cited by me on the page cited previously by DU) and particular TFD's pattern of jumping to ANI/AN other bulletin boards (Reliable Sources, etc.) when there is apparent disagreement in his articles. TFD's pattern is well established, not only with me but with his work on several other projects. His editing has been labeled as "disruptive" in the same ANI thread previously cited (thanks to DU):

A. "TFD is apparently using AN/I to be disruptive and waste peoples' time. It's not the first time. --OpenFuture (talk) 1:18 am, 5 August 2011, Friday (2 months, 10 days ago) (UTC+2)"

(where he omits my statement about my own poor vision, when quoting my asking him whether he might have some kind of disability); others have called his behavior "WP:forum shopping". It is useful to look at the history of articles on which we both worked, and the reception of our work by knowledgeable or fair-minded (or both) editors. Look at TFD's recent banning for violating an ArbCom enforcement ruling or Caritte's judgment that it was unproductive to discuss history with TFD (on Carrite's talk page).

October Coda

I could go on, but these 3 examples suffice to explain why this RfC is a bad idea, or at least why it starts so badly that when I consider reading further I start thinking about my own mortality and feeling existential dread.

Nonetheless, because of respect for the community, I have and I shall continue to comment on outside views, stated below.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 23:01, 8 October 2011 (UTC) 13:21, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

No interest

in participating unless a respected Wikipedian affirms having read, reasonably investigated, and agreeing with the charges

Elen has not indicated that she has read the charges, examined the evidence, and agrees with them. Until a Wikipedian of her stature (or greater) affirms having read the charges, looked around a bit, and agreeing with them, I shall not participate in this process. (At least I shall not read the complaints further.) I have read a few of the outside comments, which so far seem to be fair-minded attempts.

I am the primary author of Shapley–Folkman lemma, which is now in the featured-article nomination process, and as I have stated to my peers, I am travelling this week. I expect that the FA process will occupy me for at least 2 weeks: Apparently I'll have internet the next few days.

If a respected Wikipedian confirms

1. having read the complaints & the above evidence,
2. having made a reasonable viewing of the context of the above diffs,
3. agreeing with the charges,

then I would consider participating after the FA (i.e., making some attempt to read the above complaints), most probably around late December.

My reading of the above complaints has been like Shelley Duvall's reading of the long "All work and no play make Jack a dull boy" manuscript: Horror at obsessiveness and re-evaluation of the author.

I see no need to read further.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 12:11, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

• Response to Elen's comment (related to my precondition on participating---or, in her words on my talk page, "crap"):

  I have responded previously to Worm and Du's complaints at ANI, on Worm's page, etc., so I have satisfied any reasonable demand for participating in community discussion. Indeed I have wasted too much time already.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 12:11, 10 October 2011 (UTC) 21:34, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Responses to outside comments

I'll respond to comments made by outsiders here.

RE David, et alia

Thanks for the kind words about my efforts in the mathematics, statistics, and computer science projects! It is wishful thinking however to wish that this RfC would not detract from my editing: The FA nomination for the Shapley-Folkman lemma has been closed following my inactivity.

Editors who are not mathematical scientists should think about David's statement and its implications. If an editor behaves well in one major area of Misplaced Pages, it may be that apparently problematic behavior in other areas may be symptomatic of a interaction-problem, involving both the editor (me) and other editors.

In general, mathematicians and statisticians are good at visualizing relations among 2 predictor variables and one response variable. Statisticians discuss interaction among the predictors, and study them using factorial designs and generalized randomized block designs (GRBDs, whose short article may be my most important contribution to Misplaced Pages).

 Kiefer.Wolfowitz 08:54, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

RE Elen et alia

Nobody has claimed that anybody has a right to act like a jerk because of writing articles. Please withdraw the straw man, as a demonstration of drama-reducing ability.

Tonight, let me respond to "Have Moeser, Will Travel".

Honestly, I wrote "sic." after "disdain" with deliberate reason; however, it does not seem helpful to explain this edit (and I do not claim that writing "sic." then was prudent).  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 20:55, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

RE Biały et alia

Most of what is written is fine, and I endorsed its main messages, e.g., that sometimes I should think thrice before submitting a comment on another editor's behavior.

However, we should be clear about the areas of dispute.

(0) In many of the above instances, where I seem to have said something uncivil, there was already incivility directed at me: while others' previous incivility does not excuse my incivility, fairness does suggest some discussion of others' personal attacks or incivility is appropriate.

In the worst cases (I believe), I have already withdrawn or apologized for writing too roughly; it strikes me as disingenuous to quote the severest statement, without noting that where I have withdrawn or apologized, particularly when I have already complained about the misleading quotation.

(1) An editor paraphrased a SPUSA pamphlet that accused Michael Harrington and others of "Stalinist democratic centralism"; the editor knew enough to remove "Stalinist" but left "democratic centralism", and used this unreliable "history" to introduce a lot of partisan claims, for which reliable sources are wonting, and some of which appear to be false. The editor provided citations to Drucker's biography of Shachtman, which in fact does not support the claims made (and usually contradicts them).

(The editor in question is not an wunderkind, innocent of the norms of academic scholarship, either.)

(2) I cleaned up about 10 articles and tagged about 10 others one day, when I found that they were derived from a left-wing website. (More recently, I have removed a lot of right-wing conspiracy junk from neoconservatism; interestingly, nobody has cried in protest.) The tags exist so that experts from our copyright project can determine if a violation exists, and take appropriate action. In every case where I tagged an article, extensive rewriting or history-deletion was done.

(Why MrG rewrote an article while gently assuring others that it was not a violation of WP policy is a question that has never bothered my sleep.)

For these actions, DemiUrge1000 accused me of pursuing a political agenda, and particularly regarding (1) accused me of "bullying" while also assuring the editor in question that nobody on Misplaced Pages besides myself cares about the "democratic centralism" slander. (I have yet to read an apology for these charges, or a word of chastisement of DemiUrge1000.)

I have signed Bialy's "view from the outside" in the following sense: In the course of a c. 16-hour clean-up of the leftwing-conspiracy website infected articles, I could have written a nicer note to the editor(s) in question.

Finally, it is worth considering

• whether any actions, such as introducing racist or misogynist or anti-Semitic or sectarian trash, should ever receive stern messages on WP. (For example, Archie Bunker last night blamed an influx of jiggaboos for an alleged increase in juvenile delinquency in a Cleveland suburb. Referring to WP:RS seems to be an utterly inadequate response to such poison.)

It is worth considering

• whether plagiarists should be welcomed (as many or even most participants in recent RfAs seem to have affirmed) or whether stern messages are sometimes appropriate (as SandyGeorgia and others seem to think).

Insofar as we are trying to write an encyclopedia (rather than providing a therapeutic environment for PTSD-sufferers), it is reasonable to expect that negative reinforcement will occasionally be useful:

Reward everything—gold and garbage—alike. The tradition of exaggerated tenderness in psychiatry and psychology reflects our “therapeutic attitude” and contrasts with that of scholars in fields like philosophy or law, where a dumb argument is called a dumb argument, and he who makes a dumb argument can expect to be slapped down by his peers. Nobody ever gives anybody negative reinforcement in a psychiatric case conference. (Try it once—you will be heard with horror and disbelief.) The most inane remark is received with joy and open arms as part of the groupthink process. Consequently the educational function, for either staff or students, is prevented from getting off the ground. Any psychologist should know that part of the process of training or educating is to administer differential reinforcement for good versus bad, effective versus ineffective, correct versus incorrect behaviors. If all behavior is rewarded by friendly attention and nobody is ever non-reinforced (let alone punished!) for talking foolishly, it is unlikely that significant educational growth will take place. (pp. 228-229)
...
The obvious educational question is, how does it happen that this bright, conscientious, well-motivated, social-service-oriented premed psychology major with a 3.80 average doesn’t know the most elementary things about psychotic depression, such as its diagnostic indicators, its statistical suicide risk, or the time phase in the natural history of the illness which presents the greatest risk of suicide? The answer, brethren, is very simple: Some of those who are “teaching” and “supervising” him either don’t know these things themselves or don’t think it is important for him to know them. This hapless student is at the educational mercy of a crew that is so unscholarly, antiscientific, “groupy-groupy,” and “touchy-feely” that they have almost no concern for facts, statistics, ... or the work of the intellect generally. (p. 280)

(Emboldening and links added. Paul Meehl, "Why I do not attend case conferences")

RE "Have Moeser, Will Travel" and Canvassing

Moeser and Demiurge (elsewhere) accuse me of canvassing, because I placed notices regarding this RfC at my primary projects, rather than at the WikiProject socialism, etc.

Why?

Why? Why? Why? ...?

The articles related to American socialism were in terrible states when I found them, although they had been worse 5 years ago, and so the relevant projects were immediately suspect as dysfunctional/nonfunctional. Those projects have been useless when I have asked for help related to e.g. Tom Kahn; in contrast, our brothers and sisters at the LGBT project provided useful feedback for it.

I have no reason to expect that an RfC notice at the non--high-functional projects would generate feedback, let alone competent feedback.

The advantages of having non-involved parties commenting on this RfC has been previously addressed by Geometry Guy, at Elen's talk page---which is soon to be moved to the talk page here. I discussed the pleasures of contributing to articles related to mathematical-sciences WikiProject in the interview in SignPost.

Finally, even here at an RfC, "Have mörser, will travel" violates WP:AGF with impunity and with a notable failure of empathic imagination.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 09:32, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

RE WhatAmIDoing?

Please remove the sanctimonious hypocrisy and the personal attack about my lacking skills to diffuse drama. You might look at my Barnstars and see a statement about personal diplomacy for example.

		The Working Man's Barnstar
		In appreciation of your work on Shlomo Sawilowsky‎, I hereby award you this barnstar.--Iulus Ascanius (talk) 14:53, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

		The Barnstar of Diplomacy
		for your tireless liaison work at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Monty Hall problem. Elen of the Roads (talk) 13:59, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

		The Barnstar of Integrity
		For keeping the good of the Wiki ahead of thy personal glory, I hereby grant thee, Kiefer.Wolfowitz, this Barnstar for thy great expansion and neutralizing of Social Democrats, USA Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:00, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

What is Elen doing signing this personal attack?

Alas, you all are not alone in lacking the skills to read, to reason, and to avoid keeping your two feet firmly planted in your mouths.

The last sentence was not "mockery" in Elen's words, but a parody of the personal attack below, stating that I "lack the skills to diffuse drama", by persons demonstrating less reading skills and less reasoning skills than 28bytes, who had the courtesy to reply in good faith to a request. In the future, I shall leave such parodies to those with a demonstrated ability to perform "unconscious self parodies", a category featured in Dwight MacDonald's Parodies: An Anthology from Chaucer to Beerbohm—And beyond. 20:08, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

RE Elen's 2nd outside view

The comments confuse me. I suppose the "mockery" refers to the previously mentioned parody.

I would have preferred criticism to have some sense of balance and fairness, and to have issued appropriate qualifications (about the basis for judgments), Professor Bialy's or 28Bytes's, but I don't believe that I have ever expressed a statement that anybody "should not be allowed to participate": Could this claim be explained? 20:58, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

So "going through the garbage" was a personal attack! It's a good thing that I did not worry about anybody jumping out of my monitor and punching me, lest I too face a block!  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 12:02, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Again, Elen misrepresents what I wrote. After Worm's behavior over months, following his gratuitous attack on Malleus during Worm's RfA (where I AGFed despite my conscience), I just told him that he can write whatever he wants (without expecting me to read it). 12:30, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

RE DGG

DGG, please review the word or.

It is hypocritical but no longer surprising, alas, that Elen signed this view a day after she called one of our best writers an "idjit".

 Kiefer.Wolfowitz 11:58, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Users who endorse this summary:

1.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 20:43, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Views

This section is for statements or opinions written by users not directly involved with this dispute, but who would like to add a view of the dispute. Users should not edit other people's summaries or views, except to endorse them. All signed comments other than your own view or an endorsement should be directed to this page's discussion page. Users editing other sections ("Statement of the dispute" or "Response") should not normally edit this section, except to endorse another person's view.

Outside view by David Eppstein

I have no opinion on the political disputes described here, but Wolfowitz has performed very valuable service to the encyclopedia bringing mathematical articles such as Shapley–Folkman lemma as well as related biographical articles such as Jon Folkman, Graciela Chichilnisky, and Andreu Mas-Colell up to a high editorial standard. I would hate for the issues described in this RfC to overshadow his improvements to article space and cause him to stop contributing in this way.

Users who endorse this summary:

1. —David Eppstein (talk) 21:43, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
2. Geometry guy 21:47, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
3. Worm · (talk) 21:49, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
4. Sławomir Biały (talk) 21:52, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
5. Ozob (talk) 22:12, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
6. Sasha (talk) 00:37, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
7. Justin W Smith /_stalk 00:40, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
8. CRGreathouse (t | c) 03:42, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
9. OpenInfoForAll (talk) 04:58, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
10. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 09:31, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
11. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 14:48, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
12. 28bytes (talk) 19:50, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
13. Malleus Fatuorum 02:44, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
14. This is fucking Kafkaesque. Step back and breathe deep. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.246.147.40‎ (talk • contribs)
15. --Forich (talk) 04:29, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
16. --Guerillero | My Talk 05:07, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
17. —Ruud 12:35, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
18. —LK (talk) 09:21, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Outside view by CRGreathouse

This RfC seems to be procedurally invalid because even were the assertions factual they would not suffice to sanction Kiefer.Wolfowitz.

1. CRGreathouse (t | c) 03:42, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
2.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 21:35, 10 October 2011 (UTC) (Arguing in the plural)

Outside view by Carrite

I'm a little astonished to see my name mentioned above as one of the accusers here. I think K-Wolf is a terrific editor at Misplaced Pages and I earnestly wish ticky-tack soap operas like this would cease. I've got no problems with K-Wolf, I think he's a reasonable person and a good historian who understands and cares about the Misplaced Pages project. He can be passionate in his views and sometimes needs to hear views of others to keep situations in focus — but that's a minor party foul. K-Wolf is an excellent content-creator, it is time for his detractors to cease and desist... Carrite (talk) 04:01, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Users who endorse this summary:

1. (me!) Carrite (talk) 04:01, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
2.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 17:40, 10 October 2011 (UTC). In the case of Carrite, I instantly accepted with his ruling, so I find it bizarre to find it listed in a good-faith RfC, which is supposed to list problems that need to be addressed.

   There are similar problems with many of the other incidents, which seem to be a comprehensive list of my worst edits: In most cases, and certainly the worst, I later apologized or struck through a remark. This was true in the discussion of condescension and inferiors, which Worm keeps presenting in the worst light---where, after having been brushed back on the previous pitch, I did not resist swinging for the fences when I was presented a hanging curve ball. Worm has repeatedly criticized me for this edit, irresponsibly prolonging stressful attention to a vulnerable editor, despite my having corrected it.

   If this RfC is supposed to reform me, why does so much of it consist of old edits for which I have tried to make amends?  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 17:40, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

3. I also think Carrite gave an adequate summary (incl. the term "soap opera") Sasha (talk) 02:10, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Outside view by Elen of the Roads

Kiefer.Wolfowitz's statement above No interest in participating unless a respected Wikipedian affirms reading the charges is indicative of the behaviour that has brought about this RfC - a combination of Wikilawyering, insulting people's intelligence (probably entirely accidentally) and attempting to find a way to ignore the issue. Good contribution isn't a free pass - I guess few of us do criticism well, but if Keifer would only engage a bit more with what other people see as problem behaviour, then this could all be sorted out and he could get back to contributing to articles, which is his real strength.

Users who endorse this summary:

1. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 09:47, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
2. Editors who possess a superior intellect should strive to use it towards improving Misplaced Pages, not towards composing elaborate attacks against those less capable of witticism. (And Webster knows of the word disdain, so my inferior intellect fails to comprehend what KW's "Disdain (sic.)" is supposed to mean, especially when KW admits immediately thereafter that "I have scorned and I do scorn editors ".) Have mörser, will travel (talk) 18:48, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
3. Elen put it perhaps more bluntly than I would, but KW does have an unfortunate habit of showing palpable disdain for his "inferiors": for example, in the liberal use of "" when quoting other editors, this edit summary, and the whole 'Demiwit' business. While he is of course free to disdain who he wishes, it would make for much smoother interactions if he could make it a touch less palpable. 28bytes (talk) 20:11, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
4. Says it all, really. And User:Have mörser, will travel's endorsement here makes the most incisive comment I have yet seen on this RfC/U - on which, more later. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:28, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
5. Emphasizing that "engage a bit more" is directed towards KW figuring out how he's creating and contributing to these problems, not that he spend more time engaging in problem behaviors like insulting people. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:04, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
6. Indeed. And let me say I totally disagree with David Epstein's view. Producing good content in NO WAY gives one the right to be an arrogant jackass--this attitude is at the core of many of wiki's problems. PumpkinSky talk 23:56, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
7. I don't have to do a detailed reading of the charges to know that when I came across Kiefer at the Economics Wikiproject, I found his comments off-putting and sanctimonious. At the same time, he does seem to do good work. Since Kiefer professes to value intelligence, I will conclude with this quote: "It is a wise thing to be polite; consequently, it is a stupid thing to be rude. To make enemies by unnecessary and willful incivility, is just as insane a proceeding as to set your house on fire. For politeness is like a counter--an avowedly false coin, with which it is foolish to be stingy." Schopenhauer, 'The Wisdom of Life and Counsels and Maxims'. II | (t - c) 00:43, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
8. Eluchil404 (talk) 04:42, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Outside view by User:Sławomir Biały

I'm not deeply familiar with the specifics of this case. I have seen Dr. Wolfowitz's observations at RfA regarding the maturity level of administrators, and at the time I thought he had a very good point. As Carrite says, Dr. Wolfowitz is passionate about his editing. He can also be somewhat tactless and aggressive in discussions. Other editors are sometimes put off by this attitude even when he is being perfectly civil.

That said, the basis of the RfC makes it seem like sometimes Dr. Wolfowitz crosses a line into incivility. That's hardly surprising. I think it's something most of us do from time to time, but it's obviously something we should try to minimize. Let me just say, in as friendly a way possible: Kiefer, try to be a little more respectful of those around you. I think as a result you will earn their respect as well. (This is advice that we all should try to follow, I think.)

Users who endorse this summary:

1. Sławomir Biały (talk) 18:54, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
2. Well put. 28bytes (talk) 19:49, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
3. This seems about the right balance. If editors want more than this from the fundamentally one-sided process that is an RfC/U, there needs to be some give and take, for instance by discussing mutual non-interaction agreements or similar ways to disengage from dispute. Geometry guy 20:04, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
4. I do think that would go a long way to help. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 20:19, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
5. --Kmhkmh (talk) 20:20, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
6. Besides the small niggle that Kiefer Wolfowitz is not the user's actual name (but rather a combination of two eminent mathematicians), I do absolutely agree with this view - and think that many of the points would disappear if KW (and indeed all of us) followed such advice. Worm · (talk) 11:49, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

   After having been addressed as "Kiefer" (and variants), I have sometimes signed my postings as "Kiefer", with considerable amusement.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 17:48, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

7. Appropriate balance, although I'd suggest that KW might have used stronger language if this were a discussion about another user. —WFC— 15:23, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
8.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 17:58, 10 October 2011 (UTC). A couple caveats. I avoid the word "maturity" at RfAs, rather using "minor" because of my concern with the legality and vulnerability of minors being administrators. Second, I can be direct and forceful with persons who need to address problems, particularly persons introducing BGoodP violations by using sectarian trash, for which no apology should be made. (I have apologized to Carrite for initial roughness, and accepted his apology, the same.)
9. —LK (talk) 09:21, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
10. -This is the minimum of what needs to happen.PumpkinSky talk 23:54, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Outside view by Have mörser, will travel

I'm concerned about the biased WP:CANVASSing that went on in the initial hours of this RfCU. User:Kiefer.Wolfowitz has notified

• Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Mathematics
• Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Economics
• Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Statistics

but as of 14:31, 10 October 2011 (UTC) he has not notified any of the following WikiProjects:

• Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Political parties
• Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Organized Labour (he had posted there before)
• Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Organizations
• Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject United States
• Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Socialism

even though the latter but not the former group of WikiProjects are listed on Talk:Socialist Party USA and Talk:Socialist Party of America—articles that were focal points of this dispute. Not surprisingly, the initial outside view above was unrelated to the main dispute at hand here. Apparently, Kiefer.Wolfowitz has earned the respect of other editors in non-controversial areas, and thought to capitalize on that in this dispute.

Users who endorse this summary:

1. Have mörser, will travel (talk) 14:31, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Outside view by Tkuvho

The first in a list of allegations against KW is a complaint by User Black Kite, who reportedly raised a "maturity issue" with regard to the following comment by KW which user Black Kite found objectionable: What we see is a repeated, deliberate violation of WP:Civility by an administrator against a plebe, by an administrator who threatens to slap plebes with trouts. Facepalms are used by teenage punks. I made no personal attack. Now this is certainly a colorful comment by KW, that could be profitably toned down, but if this is the level of the complaints against KW, I suggest the complainers stop wasting the community's time and withdraw their complaint immediately. Tkuvho (talk) 18:27, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

1. Tkuvho (talk) 18:27, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
2.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 20:37, 11 October 2011 (UTC) Comment: I remain embarrassed by my reaction, which was based on my mistaking the good-willed and good-humored "face palm" for "talk to the hand", which is one of the most obnoxious expressions of contempt in contempory decadence. Black Kite was innocent (and the trouting a triviality, which only bothered me after the hand misunderstanding).  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 20:37, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Outside view by WhatamIdoing

Two principles seem to be relevant:

1. Hoyle's Law applies to the English Misplaced Pages: Whatever the game, whatever the rules—the rules are the same for both sides. We neither have nor want 'special exemptions' from behavioral policies for editors with excellent mainspace contributions. People with excellent editing skills do not get a free pass on their treatment of other volunteers (e.g., ).
2. "Assigning blame" for causing drama and "solving the problem" of the unhelpful drama are unrelated activities. Some types of comments and responses tend to create or inflame disputes; other approaches tend to defuse them. Our best collaborators are highly skilled in defusing drama. statement regarded as personal attack removed by Kiefer.Wolfowitz] Misplaced Pages would be improved if he figured out what changes he can make in his own behavior to defuse disputes and reduce the drama around him, no matter who or what caused the drama.

Users who endorse this summary:

1. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:47, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
2. This sums up 80% of the root problems raised in the RfC in one go. Worm · (talk) 08:26, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
3. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 12:55, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
4. -yepPumpkinSky talk 23:55, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
5. DGG ( talk ) 22:51, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
6. Eluchil404 (talk) 04:41, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Further outside view by Elen of the Road

Does anyone else think that Kiefer.Wolfowitz's response is actually indictative of the problem - especially if one notes his comments on the talkpage. Perhaps those who would consider himself friends could try explaining.Since this has caused some comment, I will rephrase. I believe Kiefer.Wolfowitz's conduct in this RfC exactly demonstrates the problems that caused it to be brought in the first place. He has continued to mock

• - weird, multi-syllable names
• see edit summary Hilarious that the bacon-prince complains about my scholarship

and attack other editors

• I trust that Worm and DU shall not be stalking my real-life movements, going through my garbage, or otherwise expanding their investigations

expounding his view that other editors are inferior to himself

• see edit summary Alas, you all are not alone in lacking the skills to read, to reason, and to write.
• consider yourself lucky that I have downgraded your category from promising youngster to only not worth my time

and should not be allowed to comment

• My suggestion was that you ask somebody with greater ability and experience to draft an RfC,
• Please go away,
• I really lack the time and inclination to read your RfC;

and treating any criticism, however mild, as a personal attack on himself

• .

(Note, Kiefer.Wolfowitz's struck out comments relate to the struck out version.) (note 2, at request of parties, diffs added as at 10:40, 16 October 2011 (UTC)) (note 3, changed layout as I had to fix a couple of duff diffs, and it was easier to see this way Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:49, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Users who endorse this summary:

1. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 11:48, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
2. In answer to your question, Elen, I do not agree with your view. In fact, I view this as another example of your avoiding the question of your NPA violation above, and your misusing this forum and violating its ground rules, by putting this discussion piece as a further view.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 15:56, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
3. I think that the only person who really has the ability to stop this is Kiefer.Wolfowitz Worm · (talk) 23:02, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
4. Very much so. the example of trying to justify DemiUrge by someone who obviously must know the conventions of Misplaced Pages usernames is imo a blatant refusal to cooperate, and shows the intent to continue non-coperation. DGG ( talk ) 22:55, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Outside view by Lawrencekhoo

Kiefer Wolfowitz does good work here, of which the Shapley–Folkman lemma is only one such example. He is overall, a big net positive to the project. I would hate for him to leave. However, there are problems with his interactions, and I fear that he may go away from this RfC without taking the legitimate criticisms to heart.

We all have the tendency to think that those who disagree with us are suspect in some way, that they are ignorant, immature, stupid, unwise or acting in bad faith. This may be true sometimes, but oftentimes it is not.

Kiefer should keep in mind that good people can legitimately disagree, and that others may have good reasons for believing the things they believe. If he takes this heart, and takes a bit more seriously the politeness policy, he can avoid much unnecessary conflict and get more done while causing less friction.

Users who endorse this summary:

1. --LK (talk) 11:25, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
2. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 13:33, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
3. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:59, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
4. DGG ( talk ) 22:52, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Outside view by DGG

With respect to younger editors, as one of the biologically older ones here, I find that they respond very favorably to being treated as equals. They will recognize greater knowledge and experience when it exists, if they haven't been previously offended. And, with respect to judgment, some of those art Misplaced Pages are the equal of anyone 3 or 4 times their age. When I remember how I was at their age, many of them here put me to shame. Even if what they say should be immature and uneducated, the solution is appropriate and patient education, not blame or abuse.

Some of the comments made by KW on talk pages when he thinks such to be the case are in my opinion almost unforgivably rude, and any one of them would justify a warning; and the continuation of them would justify a block. In the circumstances, what I think appropriate is a final warning that any further such comments will be met by increasing blocks.

I recognize KW's superlative work on many subjects. Even more than Misplaced Pages need excellent work by the currently active contributors, it needs to recruit and develop new ones who will do similarly good work. Comments like (Aug.6, 2011) will discourage the participation of not just the person to whom they are directed, but anyone who sees them. There is never any need for them: even if it were true that the response or lack of it "signifies a character defect or ignorance of politics or scholarship." . It is never appropriate at Misplaced Pages to suggest someone has a character defect any more than to suggest they have a mental illness. I consider such behavior block-worthy, if necessary to prevent continuation.

Users who endorse this summary:

1. DGG ( talk ) 22:50, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
2. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:51, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
3. Eluchil404 (talk) 04:41, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Outside view by ExampleUsername

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