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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Jimbo Wales (talk | contribs) at 11:09, 28 October 2011 (→Rules of Succession changed: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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• WT:ROY
• WT:ROYAL
• WT:ROYALTY

David I of Scotland & Alexander I of Scotland

We should be avoiding 're-directs' & 'pipe-links' that promote the gaelic version of Malcolm III of Scotland & Malcolm IV of Scotland, as those linked articles are currently in 'english' version. GoodDay (talk) 18:33, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

See WP:NOTBROKEN. In other words don't pipe links that aren't piped if they change nothing visually on the page as is the case in these ones you were edit warring over. -DJSasso (talk) 18:44, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Those linked articles are in 'english', we should use 'pipe-links' that respect this. We should have'em shown as & . This is done for the surrounding Scottish monarch articles. GoodDay (talk) 19:07, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

No, that is completely counter to the point of what redirects are for. Personally I don't care how they are listed on the page. I am just pointing out there are guidelines that actually say not to do what you did. -DJSasso (talk) 19:13, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Baloney, I did nothing wrong. PS: When did you become so interested in Scottish monarch articles? GoodDay (talk) 19:17, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

I linked you to the guideline above, if you want to keep ignoring guidelines that is your choice. I have little interest in the content of the articles. But I do have interest in editors that are causing disruption just for the sake of disruption. -DJSasso (talk) 19:21, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Then you go and seek such editors, 'cuz I'm not one of'em. GoodDay (talk) 19:30, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

This is a complete misinterpretation of the guideline in question. The guideline you are pointing to just says not to change links for the purpose of avoiding redirects. That is not what GoodDay was doing. He was changing links because he thinks the article in question should say "Malcolm III" instead of "Mael Coluim III". The link is incidental. Hmm, no, actually, that's not what GoodDay is doing. GoodDay is specifically violating the rule you point to. Personally, it seems pretty obvious to me that the articles in question should refer to "Malcolm III" and "Malcolm IV" in the text itself, whatever the links pipe to or don't. john k (talk) 01:11, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, John K. GoodDay (talk) 01:12, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

See above, I modified my position. I agree that we should not be using the Scottish names, but I'm not sure why you're focusing on the piping, when the real problem is that we are calling them "Mael Coluim" in the article text. john k (talk) 01:15, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm a tad confused. I was attempting to make this kinda edit & at that articles 'content' & 'infobox'. That's the names of the 2 linked-articles. GoodDay (talk) 01:24, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Ferdinand, Hereditary Prince of Leiningen

Hi, I'm trying to find reliable sources to verify the contents of the article Ferdinand, Hereditary Prince of Leiningen and am coming up blank. Can anyone here help? Thanks J04n(talk page) 22:42, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

You might try the Genealogisches Handbuch des Adels. john k (talk) 20:32, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Anyone willing to help out a new user who's interested in notability in Sicily?

I userfied an article for this new editor a couple weeks ago. The user has made some improvements to it, but I know nothing about the topic and am unable to determine if it's suitable for the mainspace (it does still need some work with citations). If anyone has interest in this topic, please take a look at the article User:Italian-royalty/Nobility in Sicily. Thanks! P. D. Cook 22:46, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Abolished nobility

Per Austrian nobility#Abolition of nobility in 1919, all title of nobility in Austria were abolished in 1919. Most people who used "von" as part of their name dropped it. We still refer to "Ludwig von Mises" because he presumably re-added the "von" after he left Austria in 1934 and it's how he's commonly known. He had also inherited the title Edler. What's the appropriate way of using the title in the biography? Should we use it as if the title had not been abolished? Or say he was a "former Edler"? It is a not a common part of his name.   Will Beback  talk  01:15, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

"Styles" infobox

Could anyone tell me how your project generally deals with translations in a "Royal styles" infobox like the one at Princess_Maria_Amélia_of_Brazil#Titles and honors? Do you list "Senhora" or "Ma'am" or both or neither? - Dank (push to talk) 19:27, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Three royalty articles up for deletion

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Heir to the Ottoman dynasty, Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Prince Odysseas-Kimon of Greece and Denmark and Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Princess Desirée of Schaumburg-Lippe. - dwc lr (talk) 23:56, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

A new nominated article Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Prince Achileas-Andreas of Greece and Denmark. - dwc lr (talk) 12:56, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Prince Aristidis-Stavros of Greece and Denmark - dwc lr (talk) 19:27, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Prince Constantine Alexios of Greece and Denmark - dwc lr (talk) 21:42, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Consort list articles

A discussion at Talk:List of Irish queens and consorts has prompted me to open a deletion discussion for these types of articles, most of which are the work of User:Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy. Contributions would be welcome. Opera hat (talk) 13:40, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Moving Tudor dynasty to House of Tudor

There is a discussion in progress at Talk:Tudor dynasty about moving Tudor dynasty to House of Tudor for those who wish to comment. OCNative (talk) 14:52, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

A bit of help, perhaps, with Prince Yi Chung

Having trouble getting this article from unsourced to having at least one reliable source. Any assistance greatly appreciated. --joe decker 23:29, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Non reigning royals title or no title?

A discussion which could have wide ranging repercussions for how non reigning royals are titled is taking place at Talk:Archduke Karl of Austria#Requested move. The relevant naming guidelines for this article are WP:NCROY - dwc lr (talk) 21:43, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Guidelines need revamping. Those who weren't born royal, shouldn't have royal titles in their article name. GoodDay (talk) 21:47, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

And that would create all sorts of problems as one would have to find reliable sources proving what peoples legal names are, that is likely almost impossible. What would you call Pavlos, Crown Prince of Greece? For German royals you can assume that their legal names are their titles in their native form, but without proof that is original research which is not allowed. - dwc lr (talk) 22:08, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

In any case we cannot have a naming guideline that imposes a revolutionary bias. In Misplaced Pages, a republic is a republic, not something that should really be a monarchy. Hans Adler 22:26, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

A republic is a republic, naming conventions acknowledge this, that is why we don’t have articles called King Leka of the Albanians (Leka, Crown Prince of Albania), or Emperor Karl II of Austria, King Louis XX of France (Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou) and so on. - dwc lr (talk) 22:34, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Republics don't have Archdukes. Archduchies have Archdukes. Use of fictional titles is an indication of an anachronistic, pre-republican mindset. Hans Adler 22:39, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

The French Republic has dukes and counts and the like, whose titles are all regulated by French law. john k (talk) 20:29, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Monarchies are all dependent on nations for their existence. If a nation decides not to be a monarchy anymore, from the moment that decision becomes legal in that nation the sitting royal family consists of Ex-King, Ex-Queen, Ex-Prince, Ex-Princess etc. Their descendants, born after that monarchy was abolished, are just regular citizens, with first names and a surname, like everybody else. Anything else is nice as a courtesy but has no bearing on reality. SergeWoodzing (talk) 00:43, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

How many articles' subjects are notable only for being dynasts or nobles of ex-monarchies? To title such articles by their "plain" names would be like using Samuel Clemens. —Tamfang (talk) 17:59, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

There are about a dozen men called "Archduke Karl of Austria" but for some reason the most recent pretender to that title is at that name despite the clear and unambiguous fact that it is not primary usage. It is more like placing John Adams (drummer) at John Adams because he's the most recent person who's been called that, or Charles Louis of Bourbon-Parma at "Charles II", because he is sometimes called that, even though there are plenty of other men called Charles II with a better claim to primary usage. DrKiernan (talk) 18:34, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Is it hard to add at the end (b 1961). - dwc lr (talk) 20:10, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Is it hard to move it to "Karl Habsburg-Lothringen"? DrKiernan (talk) 20:13, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

At any rate Karl Habsburg-Lothringen could refer to his grandfather. - dwc lr (talk) 20:16, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Is it hard to add at the end (b 1961)? DrKiernan (talk) 20:19, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Too late now I guess so yes, RM is well underway. - dwc lr (talk) 20:19, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

The use of the term 'pretender'

In a discussion at the BLP noticeboard I put forward an argument that we should try to avoid the term 'pretender' as being misleading for general audiences. It is a term of art for those who study royalty, but can be seen as a BLP violation for living people, and as simply confusing if applied to lots of long-since dead people. The term 'pretender' is easily replaced by more precise terms to cover different kinds of cases.

Advice at the BLP noticeboard on the particular cases they are worried about will surely be appreciated, as will discussion here.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:13, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

I kind of agree. I mean we apply claims to these people who probably just wanted to live out their life in peace without any care of their descents from royalty.--71.80.200.5 (talk) 23:35, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

"Pretender" is a descriptive term and is not a term with any negative connotation, so I don't see how it could be a BLP violation. Which is not to say that we should refer to people as pretenders who are not actually pretenders. john k (talk) 20:26, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Libro d'Oro vs. Annuario della Nobiltà Italiana

There is a bizarre battle going on along the following lines:

Contebragheonte (talk · contribs)/A curious reader (talk · contribs)

The Libro d'Oro is just an inoffical and incomplete list. On the other hand, the Annuario della Nobiltà Italiana provides a list of 48,000 families. Ersormarchese is a fake duke who hates the Annuario because he is not listed there.

Ersormarchese (talk · contribs)/Larastabata (talk · contribs)

The Libro d'Oro inofficially continues the Italian nobility register. The Annuario della Nobiltà Italiana was discontinued in 1905. An unrelated new publication has adopted the name and lists 20,000 families. Contebragheonte is a fake baron who hates the Libro because he is not listed there.

Maybe someone with a lot of patience and with the necessary background knowledge want to sort this out and make the necessary WP:SPI reports against both sides? Hans Adler 12:37, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

It looks like there are quite a few socks on the scene. . I'm not sure quite what to make of any of it, but it needs sorting. Giacomo Returned 12:58, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

AfD pending on Wulfrida, Queen of Wessex?

The Wulfrida article states she was Queen of Wessex, as wife of Æthelred of Wessex. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Wulfrida states "No verifiable evidence that Wulfrida existed." I assume users from this project may wish to comment one way or another on this deletion. OCNative (talk) 07:06, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Family of surname of royal/imperial origins

I'm pleased to inform you that I've created some "stub" on royal/imperial houses which are not present on en.wikipedia, neither in other wikipedia languages, only in it.wikipedia, are the following: Massimo Osmani Emanuele Gioeni Pilo Acuña Antiochia Valencia. Unfortunaly i'm unable to traslate it. Many thanks.Seics (talk) 13:48, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Muedzul Lail Tan Kiram

There are some concerns regarding that. Only two people have been significantly involved in the discussion. I believe your opinion will be very helpful to WT:Tambayan Philippines#Sulu Sultanate, Talk:Muedzul Lail Tan Kiram and User talk:RDAndrew. Naming convention seems to be the primary conflict. Moray An Par (talk) 01:18, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Afonso, Prince Imperial of Brazil is now a featured article nominee

Afonso, Prince Imperial of Brazil is now a featured article nominee. Anyone willing to review the article and share thoughts is welcome. --Lecen (talk) 12:20, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Or their oppose. Per WP:CANVASS, such notifications should be phrased neutrally, not skewed towards an outcome. DrKiernan (talk) 12:30, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

First comment amended 22:20, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Should the names of royals from the Western civilization have their names angliziced?

A Request for Comment has been made in Teresa Cristina of the Two Sicilies. See here. Any help is appreciated. Thanks, --Lecen (talk) 22:06, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

See my answer on that talk page. Mr. D. E. Mophon (talk) 08:20, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Naming discussion regarding Eveline Hanska/Ewelina Hańska

Readers of this page may be interested in contributing to the discussion at Talk:Eveline Hańska#Requested move. Cheers. -GTBacchus 00:23, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

FYI

I guess we forgot to notify you guys here pls see Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/2011 royal tour of Canada.Moxy (talk) 00:27, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Svein, King of Norway

There is a dicussion of this man's status as King and his article title at Talk:Svein, King of Norway. If interested please join in the discussion.--Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy (talk) 04:53, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Move request regarding Spanish noble, claimant to the throne of France

Readers of this page may be interested in contributing to the discussion at Talk:Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou#Requested move: Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou --> Louis Alphonse de Bourbon. Cheers. -GTBacchus 21:54, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Titling discussoin for list of Saxon dukes/kings

Readers here may be interested in contributing to the discussion at Talk:List of Dukes of Saxony#move. Cheers. -GTBacchus 23:54, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Daughters of Albert I, Duke of Saxony

Could anyone shed some light on the question I raised on this article's talk page? It concerns the daughters and who they married. Thanks. --Auntof6 (talk) 03:44, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

I don't understand articles like this

Line of succession to the French throne (Legitimist) - I don't understand articles like this. I fear that they are absurd original research which then branches out to poison other articles with their absurdity. "He is recognised by those French monarchists who consider Philip V of Spain's renunciation of his rights of succession to the throne of France both on his succession and as part of the provisions of the Treaty of Utrecht as null and void." Who? Who are these French monarchists? If they are not serious people, i.e. a handful of crackpots, then the entire article should be deleted.

There are virtually no sources for the article, and one has to wonder if there is any legitimacy at all to the huge list of people allegedly in line to succeed to the French throne.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 01:46, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

I can't argue that the sources are on the page and I've no idea where the list comes from, but the Legitimist claim is a well-established one based on legal principles. Perhaps it's just the wording that needs amending, to describe it not as a group of people but rather as a perspective. Louis Alphonse is definitely the claimant, as seen in Opfell for example. Although, seriously theorising about the line of succession to a centuries-dead monarchy certainly qualifies as "crack-pot" to me. Nightw 06:33, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure that I agree that Louise Alphonse is a claimant. I think that's a heck of a thing for Opfell to say about a guy, that he claims to be the King of France. It strikes me as highly unlikely to be true. What we might say is that in an alternative history in which lots of things happened differently, he would be the person most likely to be the present King of France (despite having a fine head of hair, haha). My concern is that we talk about "legitimists" as if they actually exist, people who actually say that he's the King of France, and are (presumably) campaigning for this to be recognized in the law or whatever. As far as I can tell, that isn't true, and it is bordering on a BLP violation that we so often wrongly accuse people of being claimants to things they are claimings, or pretenders to thinks they aren't pretending to.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:33, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

He styles himself duc d'Anjou, asserting his senior descent from Philip V of Spain, and has assigned his twin sons the titles duc de Bourgogne and duc de Berry, recalling the sons of Louis XVI's father. I would have thought this shows he at least considers himself the rightful King of France, regardless of how many "legitimists" agree with him. Opera hat (talk) 22:30, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Exactly. None of these "pretenders" call themselves "kings". Rather, they usually claim that they are the rightful heir to a legacy which at max includes sovereignty, often includes the right to "regulate" dynastic marriages in their family, and always includes, at a minimum, public repudiation of the claims of rival pretenders. The fact is that where there are monarchists, there are factions within monarchist movements that include philosophies, followers, traditions, events and blogs. Exceptions may be to the many German ex-monarchies, except Bavaria, Prussia, and Saxony, who definitely assert claims as heirs to their "tradition". FactStraight (talk) 02:04, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

There are crackpots in all walks of life. If they are notable, then sure we discuss them in our articles. But Line of succession to the French throne (Legitimist) is an example of how we don't do it:

• "The Legitimist heir to the French throne is Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou, the senior member of the House of Bourbon." This is the first sentence of the article, and it does not set up the context in a way that makes it recognisable as fringe. Louis Alphonse "is" "he Legitimist heir". This sounds as if it was an official function, moored in the French constitution. One needs to have knowledge about French culture and history that most Europeans have, but the average reader from Asia may not have, to understand from this sentence that the article is about the alternate universe of a tiny number of people who reject today's political system of France.
• There is excessive detail. If some religious sect believes that the world will end on 5 August next year and 100 people who they identify by their names will play an important role in that, then this sect would have to be extremely notable for us to list them all. What's different about Legitimist French monarchists that justifies going into excruciating detail about the details of their beliefs? Hans Adler 11:20, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

I would expect that Misplaced Pages considers it improperly POV to label political factions "fringe", per se. NPOV requires that within an article on a movement, fringe views not receive disproportionate coverage relative to more mainstream ones, but I'm unware of a rule that restricts the length of an article on a fringe movement relative to the length of articles on mainstream ones: on Misplaced Pages, such length has usually been a function of the interest of contributors in devoting time to the topic and, since Misplaced Pages is not paper, lots of long articles on fringe groups & movements are to be found here. It hasn't been that long since many of these same articles were being labelled "stub" with the injunction to expand. In response to other points made above:

• The excerpted first line of the article cited above omits the link to "Legitimist" actually included in the article, which is where usage of that term for a fringe movement is clarified. However, I can see how more clarity would be helpful, although not much more should be included in the lede, IMO.
• As for the use in that sentence of the term "Legitimist" to describe the duc d'Anjou as if that were an objective and prevalent usage rather than as freighted and obscure, again I'm inclined to agree with you. But see here for documentation to the contrary.
• I also agree that listing the entire French legitimist line of succession is excessive -- although I would disagree with Jimbo that the members of that list are not legitimately in that line or that the line is original research: unlike the much-disputed Line of succession to the British throne, eligibility for the French legitimist "crown" is defined in a much simpler way that makes it easier to verify.
• The rationale for listing Legitimist dynasts differs from that for explaining their beliefs. What distinguishes Legitimists from Orleanists from Bonapartists is a mixture of philosophy, politics and history. It is therefore complex. Why today's Carlists support either Carlos, Duke of Parma or his uncle, Prince Sixte-Henri of Bourbon-Parma as rightful king of Spain rather than Juan Carlos de Borbon, the actual king, is downright bewildering (see the Montejurra Incidents), yet I would argue that Carlism is notable and that encyclopedic accuracy justifies disentangling its issues to the extent there are WP contributors willing to objectively document its adherents' key differences. FactStraight (talk) 03:36, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Mr Adler's speech was followed by prolonged, sustained applause from the assembled multitude. Or me anyway. Angus McLellan (Talk) 00:48, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Renaming discussion regarding article Wilhelm II, German Emperor

The proposed renaming being discussed at Talk:Wilhelm II, German Emperor#Requested move: To "Kaiser Wilhelm II" may be of interest to members of WikiProject Royalty and Nobility. Favonian (talk) 22:18, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

New AFD's

For a number of members of the Ottoman Imperial Family all listed under one proposal here. And also Greek Royals Princess Theodora of Greece and Denmark, her brother Prince Nikolaos of Greece and Denmark and his wife Princess Tatiana of Greece and Denmark. - dwc lr (talk) 01:19, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

On a related matter, I just signed this project up for article alerts. New requests (including AFDs) on articles in Category:Royalty work group articles will shortly be added to Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Royalty and Nobility/Article alerts, which we can transclude here. Nightw 07:32, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

RSN: Self-published royalty websites

Members of this project may have an interest in this thread: Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Self-published royalty websites. The two websites are used as sources for many project articles.   Will Beback  talk  00:40, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Renaming discussion regarding article Sigurd I of Norway

The proposed renaming being discussed at Talk:Sigurd I of Norway#Requested move may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Favonian (talk) 09:33, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Emperor Kōnin

Can you guys give a look please? I rewrote it, since I had found some factual errors (anachronism of details mainly), but I feel some details would be better to go to other articles (several people were involved, as usual). Also I'd love to hear your opinion, if Princess Ikami and/or Prince Osabe (his empress later expelled and his first crown prince, see the article please) deserve their own articles, beyond notes on this article? --Aphaia (talk) 01:24, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Baron of Canalotti

There's an orphan article here which I've just PRODded. Anyone interested in Italian nobility might like to rescue it. At present it doesn't make much sense. PamD 14:37, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Stewart or Stuart?

Readers of this page may be interested in the move request at Talk:House_of_Stewart#Move_the_article_back. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:52, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Rules of Succession changed

Lots of news today as David Cameron announced unanimous agreement among the 16 realms to change the rules of succession. Presumably Succession to the British throne needs updating.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:09, 28 October 2011 (UTC)