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A great idea that can't be missed!!!

Dear Mr Wales,

I was wondering if you would like to include WikiBates into part of the Wiki organisation. WikiBates is a debating part of the Wiki organisation, where once or twice a month you come up with a topic and allow to teams to battle it out to win that certain argument.

I believe this is a great idea and I have 2 people to back me up so far.

yours Sincerely, MYGAMEUPLAY (talk) 12:16, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

We already have that as part of Misplaced Pages and it happens a lot more then once or twice a month. Just check out WP:ANI or the talk page of any contentious article :) --Ron Ritzman (talk) 13:23, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the smile - even if what you say is probably sadly true. ;-) ROBERTMFROMLI | /_CN 20:29, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Don't you mean "accurate"? :) --Ron Ritzman (talk) 17:42, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Happy Halloween!

Sp33dyphil has given you some caramel and a candy apple! Caramel and candy-coated apples are fun Halloween treats, and promote WikiLove on Halloween. Hopefully these have made your Halloween (and the proceeding days) much sweeter. Happy Halloween! If Trick-or-treaters come your way, add {{subst:Halloween apples}} to their talkpage with a spoooooky message!

Treat or I'll tear this site down! Mwahahaha! :D --Sp33dyphil © • © 05:45, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

"Verifiability and truth"

This may provide an interesting case study on why I think "verifiability, not truth" is a poisonous formulation. Here we had a fairly unimportant claim in an article that Justine Thornton attended Nottingham High School for Girls. The claim was not backed up by the source, but actually sources do exist to back it up. By normal standards, this would be considered legitimate to enter into Misplaced Pages.

But as it turns out, it isn't true. (She told me it isn't true.) There are no sources that I can find of her publicly denying it - it's a silly small error typical of tabloid newspapers, so I doubt if she ever made a big deal out of it.

If you accept the "verifiability, not truth" formulation, you are likely to think that unless we find a source debunking the claim, then merely knowing with some confidence that it is false is not good enough. I don't agree. I think that truth matters too much to be silly about it. Yes, verifiability is a good thing. It is not the only thing.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:15, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

That's not what "V not T" means. When editors see that a given citation is wrong, it fails the threshold of WP:RS and that's the end of it. Verifiability means sources cited in article text can be checked by readers (and editors). It's not a licence to knowingly (bad faith) or otherwise (mistaken) dump wrong factoids into an article. Gwen Gale (talk) 14:22, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

It may not be what it is supposed to mean, but that's literally what it says. And we have plenty of evidence of people misunderstanding the phrase - people say things like "Misplaced Pages doesn't care about the truth" - they are wrong, and this phrase is wrong. It's just false to say that the standard for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is "verifiability, not truth".

Notice too, the circularity in what you are saying. If the source says something that we know to be false, then that source fails WP:RS. But that's just another way of saying that the truth trumps a source in some cases. We seek verifiability and truth.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:31, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Reliable sources trump unreliable sources. Published secondary sources, even those which are taken as mostly reliable, are awash in mistakes and en.WP content echoes this, as does any tertiary source, sometimes in ways akin to Mercury in fish. We do what we can. The pith comes down to verifiability, not someone's OR notion of truth. 14:38, 31 October 2011 (UTC)Gwen Gale (talk)

While I agree with the general thrust of what you are saying, I think that's what makes this particular example interesting. Are you saying that we should reinsert the falsehood into Misplaced Pages? Or are you agreeing with me that a big part of "we do what we can" is editorial judgment about the actual facts of reality?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:47, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

You forget that the policy is here to help us when editing is not a no-brainer issue, like whether to rely on a tabloid's statement on a minor detail or not. In those cases if there is a consensus that the source is likely to be wrong it doesn't matter if they base that on OR or not. Policy is here exactly to help us take decisions when there is disagreement about what is true. In those cases it is imperative that all editors recognize that they can not simply make statements about what is true in their own experience but have to back those up with evidence. Editors arguing in favor of the change keep using banal situations like this but they ignore the effects that the change is going to have on the really controversial areas of wikipedia. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 14:51, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm not ignoring anything of the sort, actually. I think this change will be helpful both in these kinds of situations (in which it is made glaringly obvious that the current wording is wrong) and in more controversial situations (which are the ones that tempt people to use a made up rule that's actually not true). In all situations, the phase 'verifiability, not truth' is not as good as proposed alternatives.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:14, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

What is that "made up rule that's not true" exactly? And can you be more explicit about how it will beneficial in those controversial situations, to be rid of the not truth criterion.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 15:21, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

It is not true to say that Misplaced Pages's standards are "verifiability, not truth" - no one is actually (as far as I know) defending the claim that it is. Read through the proposed formulation at the RfC - it's much clearer and will help new editors understand policy correctly from the start.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:27, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

I have read the proposal, thank you. I guess you can't be more explicit about how you think this policy change will help me argue against those who would use their own Original Research to override statements by published experts.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 15:30, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Because it is clearer and states our actual policy more accurately, it will help new editors to become better editors more quickly. It is uncompromising. It does lack the false thrill of a zinger that shocks people though it isn't true - and I think that's a good thing. Provoking people with nonsense doesn't make them better editors, it makes them dig in their heels.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:43, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

The purpose of WP:V is to define what may be included in an article, it is not to define what must remain in an article. If you find yourself in an argument with an editor wishing to delete statements by published experts because they disagree with them, then it is the WP:NPOV policy that is designed to deal with that, not WP:V. (Also note that "verifiability not truth" is often used to argue for the retention of poorly researched newspaper material; so if you want to strengthen the position of published experts, "verifiability, not truth" is not necessarily a help.) --JN466 17:05, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Just to play devil's advocate, how do we know that she was telling you the truth? Maybe she has some motive to have correct information removed from Misplaced Pages? How do we know that you are telling the truth? If someone else removed well-sourced information from an article while claiming "She told me it isn't true", should we allow that edit to stand? Peacock (talk) 14:25, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

We can and should exercise editorial judgment. We should take into account all the facts of reality at our disposal in a strong effort to present the truth always. Upon request I can go into a lot more detail about this point.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:31, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Can you explain how that statement does not create conflicts with WP:OR and WP:SYNTH?·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 14:34, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Editorial judgment is precisely about thoughtfully balancing various factors. We are not transcription monkeys. In this example case, what I'm telling you is that I engaged in original research. I found out that the source is wrong. I trust, for good reasons, what I was told on this issue more than I trust the Daily Mail on this issue. Nothing can remove the need for thoughtful judgment, and a particularly bad way to try to do so is to have a phrase that suggests strongly to many people that having a source is more important than what is actually true.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:38, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

It sounds like me that you are saying that personal, but unverifiable, knowledge of what is true trumps the policies about OR and Synth? I do not see how you can hope to build an encyclopedia that anyone can edit on that principle. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 14:43, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

"It sounds.... that you are saying" - I didn't say that, nor anything like it. Editorial judgment can properly take into account the full context, all the known facts, not just published sources. In general, yes, verifiability in reliable sources is absolutely critical. But elevating that to a religion which rejects truth is a huge mistake.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:49, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

I said "it sounds" because you did not answer my question clearly about the relation between "truth" and the policies of OR and SYNTH. And you explicitly say that you believe that the information uncovered by your own original research should be accepted by other editors as a valid argument in the case you mention. I think that in the case you give I would probably accept that since it is a piece of trivial and irrelevant information. I deal however on a daily basis with editors who claim to know the truth about how the world works on the topics of Cults, Race and Intelligence, extremist politics, terrorism, climate change, genocide, and much more of that sort, and who claim that their view of "truth" trumps the published sources in the area. How am I going to explain to them that their views of "the truth" cannot dictate what to include or exclude in the articles, and that it cannot override the published opinions of trained professionals on those isues? ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 15:20, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

I think I did answer your question clearly. Editorial judgment is a complex matter about which we have written many volumes over the years. What I recommend in the kind of cases you are talking about is that you send editors to the improved WP:V that is being proposed. This version, which removes the confusing and false formulation of "verifiability, not truth" and explains the real situation accurately and clearly, will be quite beneficial in helping new editors to become better editors. Saying something transparently absurd and obviously false to them is only likely to encourage them further in bad behavior. For example, by encouraging people to think that Misplaced Pages doesn't care about the truth, you encourage them to engage in further battleground behavior.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:30, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

If the mistake is so widely published that it's hard to overcome with published sources, as to BLPs like this, that's what WP:OTRS and WP:Office are for. Gwen Gale (talk) 14:41, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

No, this is not an OTRS or OFFICE issue at all! This is an example (they are all around us!) of a minor error in Misplaced Pages that we know is wrong, even though there are sources for it. We can and should use editorial judgment to decide what to do.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:44, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

It is indeed, if she cares about it enough to get in touch with OTRS or Office. Otherwise, any editor can in good faith go to an article talk page and put forth why they think the sourcing on something is wrong. Gwen Gale (talk) 14:48, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I still haven't seen a single example of an editor knowingly insisting on adding material to an article based on the fact that it's verifiable. Nor have I seen any evidence that it happens so often, it requires a change of this magnitude. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 14:28, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Recent contributions (10-27—28) to Alec Baldwin, maybe? It was a case of I-have-one-ref-that-says-what-I-want-so-all-the-rest-of-the-refs-must-be-wrong.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:32, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

SarekOfVulcan: I asked for an example where an editor knowingly insisted on including incorrect information. I took a look at that article and the talk page, and that doesn't appear to be the case. When sources disagree, off the top of my head, we have at least 3 ways to handle it:

1. Judge the quality of the sources and use the highest quality ones (as SandyGeorgia suggests in that talk).
2. Use our own editorial discretion and decide which source to use.
3. When sources disagree, document the disagreement.

I don't see how changing the policy would have helped in that discussion. If this is the type of problem that this change is trying to address, I suggest a better solution is that you discuss the issues in plain English. That "snorfle" comment was not helpful and seems to have confused the other editor. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 15:50, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

It is not a change of any magnitude. It's the removal of a false statement that a majority of people have voted to remove, for the main reason that it is misleading and wrong.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:32, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

en.WP isn't a democracy that works by majority vote, it works mostly through consensus. Gwen Gale (talk) 14:36, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

I agree. I'll just note the folly though of the recent view that changing policy pages requires massive degrees of support. This enshrines old bad practices and privileges the past over the future. What is really important is that people understand that voting is never formal in Misplaced Pages, and things can and should change without getting 80% support for every change. That radically conservative attitude conflicts with WP:BOLD and WP:IAR. Saying that we don't work by majority vote is valid - but so is saying that we don't work by supermajority vote. We work by assuming good faith, open dialogue and debate, and compromise. In a case where a small faction is not engaged in good faith debate and the majority of the community is against them, it's not right to ram something down the minority's throat - but it is also not right to allow them to prevail indefinitely against opposition. Something has to give.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:42, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

I dare say it will (whatever you or I think the outcome should helpfully be). Gwen Gale (talk) 14:52, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Edit conflict: I wonder if a better word, or the word we are actually referring to is not truth but accuracy. Misplaced Pages's articles must be accurate per the topic/subject of the article. Truth might better be defined as subjective and refers to what each believes to be an ultimate. One of the problems on Misplaced Pages is that some editors believe that despite evidence that something is inaccurate, if a source which passes some of the RS threshold, for example, the publication test-reputable publisher- or reputable newspaper, then that information can be used on Misplaced Pages. Gwen your definition of RS seems more complete to me than what I've seen in multiple situations, but honestly I know its not adhered to on some articles. Seems we have three words to contend with. Verifiable, accuracy, and multiple meanings per individuals of what the word truth means and what "truth", the universal truth, is. On the Verifiability policy, when we use truth I think we are referring to what editors believe to be accurate although they may use the word truth. We use the word truth in common speech every day to mean accurate, but on Misplaced Pages we may ultimately have to clearly delineate the three words- truth, accuracy, and verifiable.(olive (talk) 14:55, 31 October 2011 (UTC))

--Ron Ritzman (talk) 15:59, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Accuracy is the right word we should be using here. Let me give you an example when I encountered a situation in which another editor insisted on retaining the false information that Ardoyne was located in West Belfast, just because a British Government report stated this. A quick peek, however at any ordinance map will plainly show that Ardoyne is located in North Belfast. To have retained such blatant geographical inaccuracy would have seriously undermined the credibility of Misplaced Pages.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:07, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

And what do we do when the map is wrong and the source is right? Or when it requires specialized knowledge to understand the map, that the authors of the source have but the editors using it as a basis for their arguments lack?·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 15:23, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't really understand the question. The answer to "how do we deal with conflicting sources" is complex, but rejecting truth as a standard doesn't help at all. The best answer is that we hold a discussion in good faith, and make a thoughtful editorial judgment. What would be really wrong in this source/map example would be to say: "We are going to use the source, not the map, because Misplaced Pages doesn't care about truth but about sources." What would be really correct in this example would be to say "We have to carefully assess the evidence, including contradictory information and claims, and come to a thoughtful solution."--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:35, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Just as it happens, there are official local government areas of Belfast (as with many other UK cities). It also so happens that Ardoyne falls (though only just) into North Belfast under those divisions. But you can't tell that from an OS map. --FormerIP (talk) 15:31, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Another view of the current system:

WP:V requires only that an outsider be able to 'verify' that the source says what the editor using it says it says. It has absolutely nothing to do with whether a source is correct in any way, only that a person reading the source will find it says the same thing as what the editor using the reference claims.

The issue is thus not whether "truth" is involved at all (I seem to recall that Misplaced Pages is founded on the premise that absolute truths are rare), but whether the mere existence of a verifiable source is any longer sufficient for a claim in a Misplaced Pages article when the claim itself is disputed. Frequently one or more editors will aver that one view is clearly fringe, and thus the other view (his) must be given greater weight, and the "fringe" view should be elided or nearly elided entirely. One obvious solution would be to have a set of absolutely neutral editors who would vet any contested claims. A less obvious one would be for Misplaced Pages to decide once and for all that opinions, allegations, surmises, accusations and the like do not belong in any encyclopedia which seeks to present facts to its readers. Cheers. Collect (talk) 15:32, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

That's a separate issue, I think, Collect. It's important, in the first instance, to distinguish opinion and fact. The issue of sources being "wrong plain and simple" only really arises in the latter case. --FormerIP (talk) 15:35, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

If the situation were to arise where a Belfast map did not suffice to convince a person that Ardoyne was in fact located in North Belfast, the sheer number of books and newspaper articles dealing with the Troubles would quickly remove any shadow of a doubt as to its true location, government report notwithstanding. Due to it being an interface area, Ardoyne saw more than its fair share of violence throughout the 30 years history of the Northern Ireland conflict. As a result, it attracted a considerable amount of media coverage.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:47, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

• I think that the underlying problem in the example here is a reliance on poor sources. I don't know how many more examples we need before we realize that using the Daily Mail as a source for biographical articles - or for anything, really - is a poor idea. The tabloid doesn't have what I would consider a "reputation for fact-checking and accuracy" - rather the opposite - and so discerning editors should reject on grounds of existing sourcing guidelines.

  "Verifiability, not truth" means that we're relying on the fact-checking of reliable sources, rather than doing our own fact-checking. That approach only works if editors are committed to using sources that actually perform decent fact-checking. Personally, I'd rather see the language disappear, because it's surplanted "ignore all rules" as the most frequently misunderstood and most harmfully misapplied policy snippet on the site. "Verifiability, not truth" has the appeal of a pithy soundbite, but also the dangers - it grossly oversimplifies a complex issue, and provides ammunition for careless editing. MastCell  16:48, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

  • While I don't disagree with you about the Daily Mail, in this case there is another source, namely this book, or so I am told. This book presumably got the false information from the Daily Mail.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:07, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
  • (edit conflict) (to MastCell) In a perfect world, I'd agree. I'm going through "fact checking" issues on a few other articles right now. Alas, I must confess that "fact checking" is turning into "here's my facts, I found someplace that agrees, I'm removing what you found" and over a half dozen edit wars. Something of the nature you describe would require an editorial staff that was trusted to not be biased or use "facts" to push one POV at the exclusion of others. Sadly, we are neither in a perfect world, nor have such a staff. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | /_CN 17:09, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
  • One example where editors insisted on including incompetently researched and factually plain wrong – demonstrably wrong – material in Misplaced Pages, based on "verifiability, not truth", and in complete disregard for BLP policy, was the Sam Blacketer controversy. Editors knew it was wrong and still argued for its inclusion. It's exemplary of the pernicious effect a misunderstood slogan like "verifiability, not truth" can have. --JN466 17:16, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

For those who aren't admins and can't review the talk page history, here's a choice quote: "Unless reliable sources publish that side of the argument, it's original research, no matter how correct it is (I agree the Register, Mail, and Independent have reported wrong, but one of Misplaced Pages's core principles is verifiability not truth)." A pretty much perfect example of what's wrong with the phrase.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:27, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

• True, but isn't that where weighing sources and ensuring balance, due weight, including all non-fringe POVs, and ensuring lack of bias come in to play? Like I said in an earlier conversation, most of the policies and guidelines here can't stand alone - they interoperate. Simply applying those items I noted above would have resolved the issue, regardless of the sources people wanted to use. "V not T" isn't so much the issue - it's not applying all of the other policies and guidelines when using it that becomes the issue. Best, Rob ROBERTMFROMLI | /_CN 17:52, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

• • • On the Daily Mail specifically, note Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_106#Time_to_axe_the_Daily_Mail. --JN466 17:22, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Jimbo: That example was from two years ago. It took me just a few seconds to find this one. "Verifiability, not truth" is one of our best tools in addressing the unwarranted promotion of fringe theories, and these types of discussions go on daily all across Misplaced Pages. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 17:42, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Another good example can be found at Talk:Abbey Road. Here we have a situation where there is a pretty strong consensus of the editors that the BBC got it wrong, but there is still hand wringing because the proof, which is pretty compelling, is published on someone's personal website rather than in a newspaper. Verifiability, not truth, is cited as a reason to keep an error in Misplaced Pages.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:59, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

No source is reliable if its information is incorrect or out of date. And no source should be excluded without consideration of what was reported, how significantly it was reported, and who by. Here it’s reasonable to consider the informal talk-page comment of Jimmy Wales more reliable than information reported in the Daily Mail. In another situation I corrected information about actor Rupert Hill after reading the Sunday Mercury article “Corrie star Rupert Hill corrects internet lies about Solihull upbringing” (and by ‘internet lies’ the article really meant ‘Misplaced Pages lies’). Sometimes newspapers are good sources, sometimes not. Without looking at all aspects of the information reported it’s impossible to judge. Bottom line - good editorial practice does not seek blanket exclusions for any kind of relevant information, from any kind of source (not even for fringe subjects). Encyclopedic information should aim to report verifiable information and the reliability of sources should be judged by relevancy as well as publisher reputation. When stupidity has clearly prevailed, revert to the last bastion of common sense: WP:Ignore all rules. -- Zac Δ 17:52, 31 October 2011 (UTC)