This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Jimbo Wales (talk | contribs) at 13:15, 15 November 2011 (→Question you may have missed: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

On SPK

• Analysis on RAF comuniques and letters about SPK. RAF distance against SPK: http://books.google.com.co/books?id=9xfmuHGDcomplimen4IAC&pg=PA351&dq=Huber+und+seine+Frau+wurden+in+Stammheim+inhaftiert&hl=es&ei=GNZITZr0D8rZgQeKotSpBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
• RAF-SPK connection never probed: http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/d-43019841.html
• Juicio sin garantías, prohibido contacto con abogados y exclusión de abogados. http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/d-42762996.html
• 1970 Spiegel: http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/d-43800954.html

• I've done some work on the SPK lead (including some grammar fixes); please review. I've found a useful source that I hadn't come across before; have a look:
  • Zbigniew Kotowicz (2 April 1997). R.D. Laing and the paths of anti-psychiatry. Routledge. pp. 80–81. ISBN 9780415116107. Retrieved 1 March 2011.. Cheers, --JN466 16:37, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

About SPK

From

Hi there. Thanks for you efforts. May I ask you: is this really a reliable, verifiable source for such an accusation. For me it seems like a gossip never sourced but a WP:BLP#Avoid_gossip_and_feedback_loops. This book as any other with such accusation, fails to provide the source and the context of such an accusation although presented as a fact. Perhaps you should read and look for the parts related to president Heinemann. Also external authors have mentioned it was a desinformation campaign against SPK. It also seems like editing Nelson Mandela article based on the police warrants made against him which lead him to prison, with the difference that none from SPK was ever sentenced nor imprisoned for that allegedely "plan to bomb a president train". If you don't mind I could also mention here some concerns about the other sources and affirmations ("many from SPK bacem RAF", etc.). PD: a retoric question: should we consider SPK as terrorists just because MagisterMathematicae said that "SPK (is well known back from 2005) from using terrorist-like tactics"? -- ClaudioSantos (talk) 15:54, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

To be honest, I would have to do some more research on this. I am not familiar with the history, or alternative narratives. Which languages do you speak? I could help with German sources. Rubin seems to satisfy WP:RS; but I also know that the quality of terrorism literature is variable. --JN466 16:09, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Any source claiming that members from SPK were terrorist should be considered a dubious non-reliable source: that crime did not even exist in German Law at SPK times (70/71), but it was introduced in 1976, years after SPK self-disolution, years after the trials. None of SPK were accused of that crime ever. Calumny consists in accusing someone of a crime he/she did not commited. But not only for Grem Guma but for J.P. Sartre it was a political persecution against those people of SPK.

Off topic: well, for my part I'm really concerned that MagisterMathematicae published accusations of "terrorism-like tactics" refering to those people from SPK. And I'm also concerned with this sort of behaviour:, where admin-user Sabbut published a private name of a person, obviously without his/her consent and accused him/her of "threats". Exactly the same procedure was used also in the english wikipedia: by user unfortunate. It seems that demanding not to publish defamatory and offensive material -which is forbidden by the own policies of wikipedia but also by law- is assumed by some wikipedian-users and wikipedian-admins as an allegedly "threat", an allegedely disruption and as an excuse to publish defamatory and unsourced contentious material and even to accuse the people who try to stop that behaviour as people acting with "terrorism-like tactics". That is very serious, don't you think so? I read that wikipedia forbid legal threats but does it means a wikipedian is allowed to act against the law here and to accuse people of acting like terrorists? -- ClaudioSantos (talk) 18:35, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

I've refactored the name on that talk page; there is no need to have it there. I agree that the edit by Unfortunate was "unfortunate", i.e. unsourced and a blatant BLP violation (even according to the version of WP:BLP that existed at the time). Do you have a link or source for the Guma/Sartre comments? Best, --JN466 22:37, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

• A link to the text from Greg Guma: and look there for "Shaping the environment", and also read this Connie Page "Vermont Town in Uproar over Baader-Meinhof Terrorist Who Wasn’t," The Boston Phoenix (Sep 30, 1978).
• About allegedelly "SPK->RAF" have you read this? but you may ask yourself how can be that true if RAF explicity said:

"quatsch ist, dass huber zur raf gehört, weil er das info liest. dazu kann nur er und er nur durch ne grundsätzliche kritik seiner politik vor seiner verhaftung kommen. alles andere ist unmöglich." "wir und ein teil von uns ganz sicher, wissen was wir wollen + was sich ausschließt. es wird keinen versuch geben, die raf in die nähe eines dieser sparvereine zu schieben (kpd/ml oder spk oder was immer)."

• About Sartre support to SPK:, one translation of the prologue from Sartre:, but why not to read directly the SPK site: which is in german?
• I also noticed that spanish wikipedians asked you to translate some articles from Der Spiegel to source its article about SPK. Is Der Spiegle a reliable source? Here some examples which you should consider:
  • Here, they referes to the mentioned Krist. as a "terrorist" but as you could read before: each charge against her was dropped, and none of those charges was terrorism.
  • Here they said that Krist. and other guy "gemacht haben soll" the murder of the german attorney general Siegfried Buback. But from the same source Krist. was not related, nor accused, nor legally prosecuted neither sentenced for that crime, as you can read here:.

so it seems a non-reliable source.

-- ClaudioSantos (talk) 04:02, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, these are good sources, and I'll do my best to see to it that the comments by Sartre, the German Embassy, and those about the philosophical proximity to Szasz etc. get representation. As for Der Spiegel, although I don't believe everything I read in Der Spiegel, the way Misplaced Pages is set up Der Spiegel is a "reliable source" -- by Misplaced Pages's criteria. However, that does not mean that Misplaced Pages can or should ignore subsequent reports in equally reliable sources showing that statements, or what amounts to mere speculations, made in Der Spiegel (or elsewhere) were wrong.

If you have anything that pertains directly to or invalidates the statements in those two Der Spiegel articles that I said I will translate for the Spanish editors, do let me know, and I'll present those sources at the same time. It will probably be a couple of days before I get back to the Spanish editors, as I'm snowed under with work. You're welcome to e-mail me too (see toolbox in left sidebar). I'd be interested in your view of the present German and English articles on the SPK, just to help me get my bearings with what is fine and where you have concerns. --JN466 02:39, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Well, by now, perhaps you should read: http://www.spkpfh.de/Kraken_jagen.htm

Have you succeed in finding the events around president Heinemann and SPK in http://www.spkpfh.de/Long_Letter.htm?

-- ClaudioSantos (talk) 16:35, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes. The text is clearly a translation; is there a German original version of the "long letter"? Has it been cited by any third-party source? --JN466 01:42, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

• It should be noticed that on claims about president's train, Rubin fails to provide any source to validate it. I've exahustively looked for it, but it is not there. And perhaps you already realized that it lacks everywhere, as it is not in Rubin's book neither in other books claiming the same assertion. Is it a WP:BLP#Avoid_gossip_and_feedback_loops? Some sources claim mrs.C.R. was not from SPK but from RAF. Each source states she was arrested on march/1972 not in july/1971 when all SPK patients were certainly arrested. Also I could not find any source claiming she was sentenced because of planning a bomb against any train, ¿could you?. But certainly it should be more important to realize that sources claim: she was tortured ("zwangswaise narkotisiert") by prison doctors and there were legal procedures/trial against those doctors .
• But, now let return to president's train and SPK. Then you succeed in finding the events around president Heinemann and SPK, as described in http://www.spkpfh.de/Long_Letter.htm, exactly in those paragraphs starting with "...the doctors behind the authorities put the things from the feet to the head in the case of SPK..." and ending with "...in order to-heal-illness-by-killing-those-who-are-ill.". All that letter was written in english, as it was a long letter to an American writer who has written a book based on it, as you also may find although not in fine print.
• There are tons of documents full of details and contexts, denying such sort of gossips. Could you read: http://www.spkpfh.de/Kraken_jagen.htm?

-- ClaudioSantos (talk) 16:35, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

• • I am sorry for the slow replies, I am currently working 18-hour shifts. The Hitler's Children book says Roll was "ex-SPK", i.e. a former member of the SPK. --JN466 03:59, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
  • This source says "a few" ("more than a dozen") SPK members (a rather small percentage of the overall membership) joined the RAF, among them Carmen Roll. As far as I can make out, there are a lot of sources identifying Roll as an SPK member who joined the RAF some time in 1971 . I haven't found any sources yet saying what exactly Roll was charged with, or convicted of. --JN466 04:54, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
  • Here some snippets distancing Roll and others from Huber: --JN466 05:00, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

And some sources claim she was RAF. Yes, the sources are contradictory (for example: she/he was SPK or not? exactly how many from SPK became later RAF, few or many? why if RAF rejected SPK, some sources claim SPK became/was RAF?). How to choose the right source? is the risk forbidden per WP:BLP? could you find the original source for that issues, for example a source for the train issue, in order to ensure that it is not a gossip-loop? So, as you realized, this woman not being from SPK, is only one of many details and contradictions emerging just from only one event. Therefore I do not want to prevent you from reading the very large sources I introduced and the other sources you found, but meanwhile perhaps you will be interested in considering the following proposal about the WP-article:

Let me notice, that the current procedure used to write the WP's article about SPK, is basically to copy-and-paste isolated, decontextualized and dispersed data taken from dispersed sources here and there; most sources dealing mainly with organizations (RAF, etc.) and marginally with SPK, contradicted by other sources and not to forget: data and sources denied by legal procedures from the people of SPK. Then, those disperse data/events are being placed together in the WP-article, joined without any other criteria but with the criteria/opinion of the wikipedia author, and presented as the history and theory of SPK. Certainly that is not the history neither the theory of SPK, but it is certainly a original research, thus forbidenn by wikipedia policies, not just demanding a lot of time to corroborate the large amount of data and emerging contradictions, but also risking to mislead the readers and to harm that people of SPK and other people. Instead of that, there is a lot of information and even history taken down in the SPK site and certainly the readers -even you- could contrast that info with external sources whenever they need. Therefore, I would suggest to leave a short paragraph about SPK and a link to that site. What do you think?

-- ClaudioSantos (talk) 06:08, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

At present practically nothing in the Spanish article is properly sourced. The first source is the SPK"s own website, whose use as a source is not ideal, but defensible as long as it is compatible with WP:SELFPUB (I'm pretty sure the corresponding Spanish guideline is pretty similar). The second source, which is the basis for the bulk of the present article, is self-published. The third source is used for an isolated factoid. So yes, as things stand, a short article seems sensible, pending proper research. (A link to the organization's own site is standard and present even now). --JN466 06:53, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes. Also encyclopaedias like Brokhaus and DTV have decided to do so and heed SPK. -- ClaudioSantos (talk) 22:43, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Have you found the entrie aimed to Brockhaus, etc. ? -- ClaudioSantos (talk) 04:23, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

You mean the text included on , correct? (I've read the above letter from dtv.) Best, --JN466 16:24, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

How about this source; are there any major factual errors in it? --JN466 16:39, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

• Well,
  • Yes, correct, that is the SPK text for encyclopedias, which is also included here: http://www.spkpfh.de/Gossipcide.htm, and in German here:.
  • About this source : I think yes, it has a lot of major factual errors and factoids. Have you compare that with this: http://www.spkpfh.de/Zeittafel.htm (also in english: )
  • Take a look on the following proposal. It is somehow the current spanish version, but corrected and reworded, thus refactored. I've cited the respective SPK sources, but to satisfy the WP policies and easy the thing, I also added some external sources which certainly you will find somehow approximate to the SPK sources (for example:); but when emerged any contradiction, be it in the wording, I just prefered and I suggest to heed and follow the SPK version:

El Colectivo Socialista de Pacientes (en alemán Sozialistisches Patientenkollektiv, y conocido por sus siglas SPK) fue un colectivo de pacientes fundado en Heidelberg en febrero de 1970, por el Paciente de Frente Wolfgang Huber, WD, Dr.médico. El programa del SPK era hacer de la enfermedad un arma y continúa activo. El SPK ha surgido del Frente de Pacientes, existente desde 1965. El SPK ha declarado su auto-disolución en julio de 1971 como retirada estratégica. Luego el SPK ha continuado existiendo sin interrupción como Frente de Pacientes, actualmente como PF/SPK(H). Para el SPK la enfermedad es la realidad existente innegable, enfermedad efectiva, y es causada por el sistema capitalista. El SPK lucha a favor de la enfermedad, a la que considera la anticipación de la especie humana, y lucha contra el capitalismo y contra todos los médicos a quienes considera la clase dominante del sistema. La más conocida entre numerosas publicaciones del PF/SPK(H), es el libro SPK – Hacer de la enfermedad un arma, con un prólogo del fundador del SPK, Huber, WD, y un prólogo de Jean-Paul Sartre. Algunas de sus publicaciones se encuentran en su página oficial www.spkpfh.de

-- ClaudioSantos (talk) 20:14, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

I appreciate what you're trying to do, but would point out that this version does not mention Huber's arrest, conviction and sentence (which is mentioned in the SPK Zeittafel), nor does it mention what they were -- rightly or wrongly -- convicted of, and it does not mention that, according to multiple sources, about a dozen former SPK members moved across to the RAF when the SPK was dissolved. Another fact that is missing is that the Hubers were denied the right to practice medicine (also in Zeittafel). Could we work on a version that incorporates that info? Best, --JN466 21:01, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Do you have info on the event described in some sources as the suicide of a patient in April 1971? I note this suicide is disputed on the SPK website, but without further detail being given. What happened? --JN466 21:06, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

About details and contexts I have to recommend again the SPK site: www.spkpfh.de, for example: and . About the WP article, I believed that you have agreed that: it is better a short and a general article than a larger and more detailed but bad sourced and controversial one, builded by selecting isolated factoids or even facts from disperse sources (that is WP:OR). Leave aside the factoids. What about the facts? Of course, there are a lot of details (events, specificities, words, etc.) which are actually not mentioned in my proposal. For example it is not mentioned the first assembly of patients in favour of illness and against the doctors, and that is just a very important detail which is missed. There is not explicity mentioned the concept of illness neither its dialectic moments, although being the main core of SPK ideology-philosophy-practice. About legal perspective: it is not mentioned the legal procedure used by the SPK patients at those times against eviction, dismissal, etc. About the detention of patients of SPK, it does not mention the struggle of those patients inside and outside the prisons (cited by SPK sources but also by external sources like that from Guattari I cited), the hungerstrikes, the legal procedures against the responsabile doctors, and it is not mentioned the accusations, trials and sentences against doctors since those times; it is also not mentioned that the detention and imprisonement of SPK patients could be considered a sort of political persecution and a desinformation campaign as sources state (I've just added three more soueces in my last edition which claim that and even denounce tortures against SPK patients: ) -instigated by the doctors, as states the SPK. Yes it does not mentions that Hubers were forbidden to practice medicine but it also does not mention that Hubers had already rejected to be doctors forever and brand themesleves as patients, front patients. Abolition of the doctor-patient relation is certainly an important detail about SPK/PF-ideology and practice, but a detail not mentioned at all in the proposed entrie. There is not mentioned where were all the 500 patients before coming to SPK, neither where they were after SPK dissolved (abroad? working? in the PF/SPK(H)? no where?). About the allegedely dozen former SPK members allegedely moved across to the RAF, I believe that you could realize that they are mostly factoids claimed by sources which does not provide the original source for those affirmations, as we discovered with one single case (C.R. and train bombing). If you read the legal procedures from SPK, you will find that they even demonstrated that a lot of those persons were not ever in the SPK. But you also could realize that external sources are also contradictory in this issue, as I showed and cited: some sources claim this persons were from RAF but do not claim they were from SPK, so, per WP:BLP you should remain conservative in publishing that info. And you may notice that those sources claiming that "dozen SPK patients became RAF", seem to be very biased sources reducing all the history of SPK to that allegedely relation with RAF, trying to exemplify with those "dozen" persons that SPK became RAF and that SPK was barely nothing else but a terrorist group, which is a claim denied by other sources(, Spandler, etc.), denied by the Law (that crime did not existed then and nobody from SPK were sentenced because RAF and viceversa, and SPK was never forbidden) and a claim denied by RAF self (RAF rejected expresively and take distance from SPK, is it a contradiction that RAF agrees in this point with the Law?). A claim which was rejected by legal procedures (defamation, calumny, etc.) by the people of SPK, and a claim which was deleted from Encylopedias like Brockhaus and dtv, as you already realized. Certainly these last details (legal procedures against those false allegations against SPK) are also part of the history of SPK, but are also not mentioned at all in my proposal, and certainly you will notice that these details would be certainly related to a legal perspective on SPK, and not only the details around detentions against Hubers. Well, again: of course, this general short article lacks a lot of details, but we already discussed the reasons to do so. If the article would need to be improved then it could be done in the future. Do you agree again? -- ClaudioSantos (talk) 23:00, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree with you that the article should be conservative, especially where facts are disputed by different sources, that it should not assign undue weight to the fact that some SPK members subsequently joined the RAF, and should restrict itself to high-quality publications. However, I cannot support you in your argument that the SPK perspective should be the only one represented, as that is not the premise upon which Misplaced Pages is built – no organisation or political actor enjoys that privilege on Misplaced Pages. However, each article on Misplaced Pages links to the article subject's home page, and so does and will the SPK article, allowing readers access to the subject's understanding of itself. --JN466 16:51, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I preferred to use those words used by SPK, like "collective" instead of "organization", "dissolved" instead of "disbanded", "patients" instead of "clients"; is it a POV?. But beyond that, my proposed entrie is not a perspective about SPK but it merely contains the following contents: what means the name SPK, where was SPK founded, who did found SPK, when was SPK dissolved, how and by whom was SPK continued until now, what is in general terms the SPK ideology, what is the internet site of SPK. So I can not imagine what sort of contents is proposed to "balance" that information and I do not understand how these facts could be considered POV, moreover I think that any fact can not be "balanced" but denied if it is not true. Does SPK not mean "Socialist Patients' Collective"? Was SPK not founded in Heidelberg?, was SPK not founded by Huber?, was SPK not dissolved in july 1971?, was SPK not continued by PF/SPK(H) as Patientenfront declared explicity by Huber self? Does SPK not enact that "doctors are the ruling class of capitalism and SPK fight asgainst doctors"? Is not the enacted SPK program: "turn illness into a weapon, in favour of illness and against capitalism"? is not http://www.spkpfh.de the SPK internet site? Is there any source claiming otherwise?

The entrie is limited to those facts, it does not include any perspective nor any allegation -true or false- about SPK.

So let me ask more questions: Are the defamatory and false allegations about SPK being a terrorist group linked to RAF, the data which should be inserted, despite of WP:BLP and despite of all that we discussed (allegation denied by RAF, allegations denied by the trials, allegations denied by the legal procedures from SPK/PF(H) against defamation, allegations denied by reliable sources -so you agree wikipedia article should remain conservative to avoid harming people-, allegations which were deleted from Brockhaus and dtv encyclopedias)? And, at any rate, those allegations do not deny the facts of my proposed entrie, so how exactly those false allegations could "balance" my proposed entrie? Is the insertion of defamatory contents a way to balance an article in wikipedia? Sincerely I know your negative answer to this last question, but why not to question it here?.

And let me propose even more questions: If actually those sources which mention some names of people from SPK who later were RAF, explicity do so in order to claim the alleged connection between SPK and RAF as well as SPK being terrorist; then would not be the insertion of those names, in any case, an insertion of "unduly weighted" content as it implies those harmful allegations? Why not to insert into each wikipedia's article of each kindergarten, school, university, editorial and company, the name of each RAF member who studied or worked there before becoming RAF?

I hope, I do not look rhetoric or mayeutic due my questions. -- ClaudioSantos (talk) 18:49, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Well, at the least the fact that the Hubers were arrested and imprisoned should be in the article, and also what they were convicted of. This, after all, led to the SPK being dissolved. Not mentioning this would be like having an article about Martin Luther King, and not mentioning that he was jailed.

I would support you in that the article should not state that the SPK was a terrorist organisation. I think the sources that you have brought to the table back you up in this regard. However, from what I have read, it seems undisputed that some members of the SPK -- but certainly NOT Huber himself, as the SPK's founder -- did move across to the RAF, and later became highly notable RAF members. --JN466 09:11, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Let me ask: what has SPK to do with the RAF members notoriety? Is this the RAF entrie or the SPK one? At any rate, none from SPK "did move across" to the RAF. If few from SPK were later a member of RAF, it happened after SPK was self-dissolved, be it years later. And every RAF member, even those who years before were SPK, but any member of RAF was compelled to absolutely break with SPK positions, even contact was forbidden. In a general short entrie, the more relevant details about SPK would be obscured due iluminating these facts and explanations, therefore at any rate "unduly weighted". Certainly it is not irrelevant that the patients of SPK were object of persecution, jail and torture, neither it is less relevant that despite of and against that, SPK still exists and remains its struggle until nowdays. -- ClaudioSantos (talk) 05:12, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

I sympathise, but Misplaced Pages is set up in such a way that due weight is established by sources, and a significant proportion of sources writing about the SPK cover this aspect. Basically, if Misplaced Pages follows its basic policies, the article should reflect these sources: , (unless sources published later on definitely establish that some of these sources were in error). Where SPK members were subject to persecution, jail and torture, of course this is something the article should cover as well, as is the continued existence of the organisation, but we need to find sources, especially third-party sources. The best thing you and I can do here is to research sources which I can then drop on the Spanish article's talk page. The Google Books and Google News links are the best starting point for that; if you can help me identify the most reliable and well-researched among that lot (above all scholarly sources), I will pass them on and will have a basis for discussion with the Spanish editors. We should focus on identifying third-party sources, as these will be more likely to be adopted by the Spanish editors for sourcing article content. --JN466 18:46, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

I've held back on translating the Spiegel sources so far because they are rather old, written at the time the investigations took place, and I am unclear as to how much the suppositions expressed in these articles were superseded or borne out by later developments. That is always a problem with contemporaneous sources; we should ideally use sources written later on, that analyse events retrospectively. --JN466 18:50, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Hi Jayen, I think there is no lack of sources for your concerns. About this I already gave these sources which denie those. Also this source denies the relation between RAF and SPK and a lot of twaddle; also this one denies RAF-SPK conection: and support all the facts of my proposal, and I also provided non-SPK sources for persecution, jail, torture: against SPK. Those sources were provided in the references of my proposal as you can check again. On the other hand: are you having any trouble or doubt about SPK current existence? That should be a consequence of those non-SPK sources claiming and spreading twaddle about SPK, therefore, not your fault, and since you learned the SPK-internet-site, then should not be a trouble too, at least not for you. Let me ask: if there are a lot of sources which show that RAF-Ulrike Meinhof studied in University of Münster, why it is not reflected in the respective wikipedia article in a statement in its first or second paragraph like "some members of this university became guerilla-RAF-members"? But if so, perhaps I would clap laughing, it means: certainly I will remain convinced that sort of idiotism must not be used in the SPK article. So let return and focus on SPK and let aside and don't you worry due my last (anti)rethoric question against high private and established institutions such as pride and arrogance. -- ClaudioSantos (talk) 03:05, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

In fact, the article on the University of Münster lists Ulrike Meinhof as one of its "notable alumni". Truth is, she is listed at the very end of the list, whereas all the other notable alumni are ordered alphabetically, so I think I will correct that bit. Sabbut (talk) 09:51, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Oh, I see you just edited your post as though you had originally meant to ask for something else.

Your original question is indeed thus:

Let me ask: if there are a lot of sources which show that RAF-Ulrike Meinhof studied in University of Münster, why it is not reflected in the respective wikipedia article ? (source: , where is the article on the University of Münster)

And my answer was clear: the article about the University of Münster indeed has Ulrike Meinhof as one of its notable alumni.

Now you have changed your question into this:

...in a statement in its first or second paragraph like "some members of this university became guerilla-RAF-members"?

Well, the thing is, it is not notable that some members of the University of Münster became terrorists if said terrorists are a negligible proportion among all of the University of Münster's former students, similar to the proportion you will find among people with a different educative background. This seems not to be true if you take into account the proportion of members of the SPK who later became members of the RAF, which is significantly much higher than the proportion you will find among people from other backgrounds. According to sources, it seems pretty much clear that their affiliation to the SPK had a significant role in their later affiliation to the RAF.

I will keep lurking here from time to time waiting for any news. Please do not try to hide my last answers in a different section. And please ask the SPK website's admins to remove any threat against the Spanish Misplaced Pages's admins. Thank you. Sabbut (talk) 00:39, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Back on SPK

It would indeed be ridiculous to mention in the first or second paragraph that some of the alumni of the University of Münster became terrorist if there is only one notable example. It would also be contrary to NPOV, as you could also argue that some of the alumni became notable architects, lawyers, mathematicians, writers, singers, poets, businesspeople and the like. To put emphasis on only one of the outcomes among notable alumni of the University is to add an unnecessary and unacceptable bias to an otherwise perfectly acceptable article. As for the previous versions of that question of yours, they have already been answered by me at the previous subsection. Sabbut (talk) 21:36, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Back to SPK

Hi Jayen, let us back to our discussion about SPK entrie:

Just to remember, this was my last comment:

And this was your last comment:

Thus Jayen, I think there is no lack of sources for your concerns in your last comment ("...I sympathise..." ). About this I already gave these sources which denie those. Also this source denies the relation between RAF and SPK and a lot of twaddle; also this one denies RAF-SPK conection: and support all the facts of my very conservative proposal which is strictly full of facts and empy of any allegation on SPK; and I also provided non-SPK sources with some illustration about histeria, persecution, jail and torture against SPK; but there is also mentioned the warfare of the SPK imprisoned patients, figthing pro-illness and against doctors, (Patientenfront) by radical means such as unconditional and unlimited hungerstrike, absolutely different than RAF crying for doctors, health and better confinement conditions, as you could also realize. Certainly those facts were not included in my proposal but they could be read in further reading. All those non-SPK sources were provided in the references of my proposal as you can check again. Therefore certainly I will remain convinced that sort of ridiculous idiotism: forcing to include the names of the very few ex-SPK who later on became RAF members, must not be used in the SPK article, because it is being used by the respective authors just to imply false allegations and false accusations against SPK, thus misleading the readers with garbage. For example and on the other hand: are you having any trouble or doubt about SPK current existence? That should be a consequence of those non-SPK sources claiming and spreading twaddle about SPK, therefore, not your fault, and since you learned the SPK-internet-site, then should not be a trouble too, at least not for you. And yes Jayen, I also found a waste of time translating those Spiegel articles for the same reasons I exposed. -- ClaudioSantos (talk) 22:39, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, Claudio. Sabbut, there are some worthwhile sources here among those that Claudio has brought to the table, and they do bear his points out; notably ("It was falsely linked to the Red Army Fraction"), (pp. 480--481), and ("By all accounts—including the admission last week of a West German Embassy spokesman in Washington—SPC was fairly harmless.") The publishers (SAGE_Publications, Routledge/Taylor & Francis Group) are highly reputable academic publishers. The continued existence of the "Patientenfront", the SPK's 1973 reincarnation, was attested to here. I'm looking into some other sources as well that provide a retrospective analysis, but Claudio's sources present the strongest statements I have found so far contradicting the alleged SPK/RAF linkage that was popular in press reports at the time. --JN466 02:08, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Of course, a source attributed to the SPK like this one Claudio presented ("SPK Krankheit im Recht", which is also advertised here) would naturally deny any link between SPK and RAF.

On the other hand, the quote "By all accounts—including the admission last week of a West German Embassy spokesman in Washington—SPC was fairly harmless" does not really mean that much. I would agree that it was "fairly harmless" as per (Global Terrorism Database, endorsed by the University of Maryland), which only mentions a few violent incidents attributed to the SPK, but that's not the same thing as saying it was "harmless".

As for Ian Parker's book, I would take a bit of caution before believing everything it says, at least when it comes to the book saying that the accusations of terrorism were false. From his own critical view as a Marxist and a proponent of critical psychology, Ian Parker may have been more inclined to believe the SPK's stance than the German government's. It could be argued that the book written by Jillian Becker (a right-wing journalist) is "counterinsurgency tripe", but it can also be noted that third sources which say that very thing about Becker's book do not readily dismiss it, at least when it comes to facts and figures.

I will keep looking for additional English- and Spanish-language sources. However, I think it would be of great help to find a contemporary newspaper article on the SPK. Perhaps the Der Spiegel notice from 1973, a year after the incident, could be of help, but an article written in the 21st century would probably be more useful. However, I will have to consider any self-published source such as the aforementioned book ("SPK Krankheit im Recht") and others that Claudio has proposed as more than likely propaganda. Sabbut (talk) 09:15, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

By the way, Jayen. I would also advise you to check from time to time the history of your talk page. ClaudioSantos has this nasty habit of trying to hide my comments in a different section from his own, probably so as to prevent you from reading them. For example, he just striked all his text from a previous subsection (which had been answered by me) and copied it again in a new section. He also likes editing his own comments, arguably so that it seems that I'm answering to something else than his own comment.

Although my last comments were more a reply to Claudio than a reply to you, I think they also provide some insight on the subject, and they should definitely belong to the same section. Claudio was just blocked for a couple of days last night because of his attitude, although he might like to explain it here with more detail once his block has expired. Sabbut (talk) 09:28, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

I think we can exclude any self-published sources making potentially self-serving claims from our consideration, per WP:SELFPUB (or its Spanish equivalent). I am also not suggesting that we believe Parker, or any of the other sources for that matter, but we do need to take note of reliable sources that take alternative views. Where matters are contested, and there are various truth claims, we need at the very least to attribute statements to their authors – say exactly who says what – and cannot present contentious statements as fact. Claudio has delivered some reliably published independent third-party sources above (I would encourage him to use this opportunity to add more of them, especially third-party academic sources), and we should factor these sources in to arrive at something that is NPOV. I am currently looking at , a retrospective in a German historical journal, but it only has snippet view in Google Books, which makes it difficult and time-consuming to get the whole text.

I am aware that the thread is a little chaotic and my orange bar pops up quite a lot, but I don't think I have missed any of your posts. In the section above I noted that Claudio took care to only strike out his own comments, and leave yours intact, which I think means there was no ill intent; and he is welcome to refine his posts prior to your or my having replied to them (although note that posts should not be changed after they have been replied to, per WP:REDACT). --JN466 09:47, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Claudio, moving other editors' talk page posts is not considered good form; it's best to leave them in the place where the other editor originally put them. Best, --JN466 10:02, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

El Colectivo Socialista de Pacientes (en alemán Sozialistisches Patientenkollektiv, y conocido por sus siglas SPK) fue un colectivo de pacientes fundado en Heidelberg en febrero de 1970, por el Paciente de Frente Wolfgang Huber, WD, Dr.médico. El programa del SPK era hacer de la enfermedad un arma y continúa activo. El SPK ha surgido del Frente de Pacientes, existente desde 1965. El SPK ha declarado su auto-disolución en julio de 1971 como retirada estratégica. Luego el SPK ha continuado existiendo sin interrupción como Frente de Pacientes, actualmente como PF/SPK(H). Para el SPK la enfermedad es la realidad existente innegable, enfermedad efectiva, y es causada por el sistema capitalista. El SPK lucha a favor de la enfermedad, a la que considera la anticipación de la especie humana, y lucha contra el capitalismo y contra todos los médicos a quienes considera la clase dominante del sistema. La más conocida entre numerosas publicaciones del PF/SPK(H), es el libro SPK – Hacer de la enfermedad un arma, con un prólogo del fundador del SPK, Huber, WD, y un prólogo de Jean-Paul Sartre. Algunas de sus publicaciones se encuentran en su página oficial www.spkpfh.de

SPK

From

I've reverted your editions to the lead despite of your grammar and style could be better than mine. Nothing against you nor against your efforts (thanks!), but I found some inaccuarcies in your edition, that I will discuss here before changing the lead. ¿Ok? -- ClaudioSantos (talk) 17:34, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

• The SPK's illness concept is not a concept of mental illness, if you read all its documentation you will easily find that SPK emphatically reject a distinction between so called mental' and 'physical' illnesses. They even empghatically said: illness as being one although divided by medical-means into illneses.
• In the SPK you and even the police could find books from Marx, Engels, Hegel, even about guerrilla, and even from the psychiater Wilhelm Reich, but not even one book or text about anti-psyichiatry and that issue was never discussed in the SPK. The allegedely relation between SPK and 'antipsychiatry movement' has been emphatically rejected also by the SPK. SPK even attacks the anti-psyichiatry movement as a reformist medical-movement, leaded by doctors who remained being doctors and part of the iatro-capitalism.
• SPK emphatically and expresively refers to Illness against iatro-capitalism. It is a basic part of their ideology and its illness concept, as they consider the fundamental identity/contradiction being precisely Illness against capitalism. Replacing the word capitalism with "diseased society" misrepresents SPK ideology. And also you will find that SPK repeatedly claims to be a pro illness collective as being the core of its revolutionary concept, so I think it should not be supressed.

-- ClaudioSantos (talk) 17:34, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

• • You're right about the point with illness not being restricted to mental illness. That was my mistake, and should be corrected. --JN466 17:41, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
  • I accept that the SPK does not and did not associate itself with the anti-psychiatry movement; so I agree that phrase ("A part of the anti-psychiatry movement...") should be removed. What is true is that they received some support from members of the anti-psychiatry movement, notably Foucault; I think that is okay to state. Would you agree? --JN466 17:43, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

• • There is a reference to an "ill society" on the spk website (in a piece by Sartre, however, rather than Huber). Parker has a reference to an "insane world" here; would you say that the summary is inaccurate? I don't mind limiting it to capitalism, if that is what the SPK themselves said; but didn't the other elements Parker mentions play into it as well? --JN466 17:53, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

So, fixing my blunders (thanks for pointing them out!), would this be okay as a lead?

The Socialist Patients' Collective (in German ''Sozialistisches Patientenkollektiv, or SPK) was a patients' collective founded in Heidelberg in February 1970, by Wolfgang Huber, a doctor at the Heidelberg Psychiatric Clinic; it emerged from the Patients' Front which had existed since 1965.

The SPK considered mental and physical illness to be caused by the capitalist system, and viewed it as an appropriate response to such a system; and it saw doctors as the system's ruling class. Its declared aim was, and remains, to "turn illness into a weapon", a vision that attracted support from intellectuals and anti-psychiatrists like Jean-Paul Sartre and Michel Foucault. Under pressure from German law enforcement over alleged terrorist links, the SPK declared its self-dissolution in July 1971, "as a strategic withdrawal"; Huber and his wife were arrested and jailed. Since then, the SPK has continued its activities as the Patients' Front, today the PF/SPK(H).

--JN466 17:57, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

About Foucault: what I know and is documented is certainly J.P. Sartre supported and encouraged decisevely SPK, and he participated and encouraged the counter-investigations on the SPK-trials, and he even wrote a support preface to one of the SPK books, indeed a very important book containing the core of SPK concepts. I also know and it is documented that Foucault and others, signed a press declaration when some SPK patients were imprissoned, but except that, he did nothing else; but it is also documented that some years later, Foucault did nothing but remained sat when some PF patients were attacked in a medical congress were PF patients made public for the first time one of its fundamental texts (Iatrocracy on a world wide scale ). -- ClaudioSantos (talk) 18:13, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Would you agree if we do not stigmatize Sartre as beeing a "leftist intellectual"? but perhaps you would find a better anecdote to know that Sartre was so "crazy" (for whom?) that not only he did supported SPK practice and concepts, but he also did rejected a Nobel price!!! But I am not suggesting to include that label in this article. -- ClaudioSantos (talk) 18:13, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

No problem with dropping the leftist descriptor. :) Sartre is quite well known enough and has his own biography; deleted above. That there was support from Foucault, at least at one time, is mentioned here; as his is a well-known name, I think it might be worth including, even if Sartre's support was somewhat more substantial than Foucault's. --JN466 18:21, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Ok, so, let me meditate about your last proposed version and I will answer as soon as possible. -- ClaudioSantos (talk) 18:23, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Okay, no rush. :) --JN466 18:26, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

The Socialist Patients' Collective (in German Sozialistisches Patientenkollektiv, and known as the SPK) was a patients' collective founded in Heidelberg in February 1970, by Dr. Wolfgang Huber. The kernel of the SPK's ideological program is summated in the slogan Turn Illness into a weapon, which remains actively practiced. The SPK emerged from the Patients' Front, that was founded in 1965. The SPK declared its self-dissolution in July 1971 as a strategic withdrawal but the SPK continued to exist as Patients' Front, which is currently known as the Patients' Front/Socialist Patients' Collective (PF/SPK(H)). For the SPK, illness really exists as an undeniable fact and it is caused by the capitalist system. The SPK is pro illness, in favor of illness, considering illness as the protest against capitalism and considering illness the anticipation of the human species that does not yet exist but that should be created through illness. The SPK fights against capitalism and against all doctors considering them to be the ruling class of the system and poisonous to the human species. The most widely known text of the PF/SPK(H) is the book SPK - Turn illness into a weapon with prefaces by both the founder of the SPK, Wolfgang Huber, and Jean-Paul Sartre.

1. ^ Zbigniew Kotowicz (2 April 1997). R.D. Laing and the paths of anti-psychiatry. Routledge. pp. 80–81. ISBN 9780415116107. Retrieved 1 March 2011.
2. ^ Ian Parker (1995). Deconstructing psychopathology. Sage. p. 120. ISBN 9780803974814. Retrieved 1 March 2011.
3. PF/SPK(H), Text for entries on the SPK in the Encyclopedias of Brockhaus, Duden, etc.
4. Proposal for a text for international use concerning SPK. Overview.
5. SPK/PF(H), SOZIALISTISCHES PATIENTENKOLLEKTIV (SPK), PATIENTENFRONT (PF), List of dates
6. SPK Turn illness into a Weapon, 1993, ISBN 3-926491-17-5, 240 pp.
7. Trevor Blake, SPK - Krankheit Im Recht, ISBN: 3926491264.
8. Ian Parker, Deconstructing psychopathology, ISBN=9780803974814 p.120
10. Félix Guattari, Molecular revolution: psychiatry and politics, 1984, ISBN: 0140551603, p.67-68
11. Gary Genosko, Deleuze and Guattari: critical assessments of leading philosophers, p.480-481,798

Topic Ban

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. Night of the Big Wind _talk 20:51, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Canvassing

Easy on the WP:CANVASSing, there... --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:20, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

ANI Comments

You have asked me to comment on the issue currently on ANI. I am not sure I can be of any help there right now. One thing I learned in editing in the controversial areas of WP is that you have to keep all your comments above reproach. Some of the people editing on WP with various agendas tend to take people editing on the other "side" of an argument to admin attention at the drop of a hat. You need to make sure all your comments are about edits and not about editors. A problem I see happening is that it sounds like they are getting ready to ban you from all areas that you are interested in. I suggest either being humble and admit wrong-doing on the attacking of other editors and trying to get them to stop at a full topic ban or at least cut the amount of time down to a reasonable level. I personally think the item that brought you to ANI was bogus since it has been previously discussed that your discussion of Margaret Sanger and/or Planned Parenthood doesn't violate your previous restrictions but I am not sure your reactions on the ANI will help and it may be too late. Just my non-admin $.02. Good Luck.Marauder40 (talk) 17:00, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Bury the hatchet

Claudio, your English is very good, but editing Misplaced Pages is hard and I just think you could use some help. I didn't go to get you blocked and that's why I didn't vote to extend the ban. But maybe try chatting a bit with other editors, especially when there is an argument over content, that's all I am suggesting. I'm sorry for saying rude things to you before. Good luck. (This is factchecker.. I just changed my signature name..) Centrify (talk) (contribs) 22:11, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Question on ANI

You have been asked a question on ANI, and although you have dited the page several times since the question was asked, you have not answered. In case you have missed it, the question is in the section "Expand ban" and was asked by NuclearWarfare here. Please give this your attention. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 22:24, 6 October 2011 (UTC) Yes, missed it. Let me see. -- ClaudioSantos¿? 23:19, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Topic ban expansion

This is a summary of my recent edits at wikipedia:

1. I have provided verifiable and academic reliable sources for the following facts, which were already included by other users at Margaret Sanger's article: she, founder of Planned Parenthood, was an advocate and supporter of eugenics and she expressed that birth control like eugenics sought to "assist the race toward the elimination of the unfit". She also supported coercion to prevent the "undeniably feeble-minded" from procreating, and she recommended that immigration exclude those "whose condition is known to be detrimental to the stamina of the race," and that sterilization and segregation be applied to those with incurable, hereditary disabilities.

2. In the euthanasia article, I have included and referenced the following historical fact: the euthanasia movement was intertwined and linked with the eugenics movement.

3. In the euthanasia article, I have included and referenced the following historical fact: the american euthanasia movement supported euthanasia arguing eugenics grounds and they also supported coercive euthanasia.

I will not discuss anything about those facts, nor I will argue for their inclution in wikipedia. Indeed, those facts are part of the mentioned wikipedia-articles and they were accepted as well referenced facts, despite of certain structural resistence from some users. -- ClaudioSantos¿? 23:28, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Per the ANI discussion - There is community consensus for an expanded topic ban on your editing. The exact terms are:

As enacted: ClaudioSantos is to be topic banned for a period of six months to include Abortion, Planned Parenthood, Eugenics, and Nazi related topics, broadly construed, including all biographies of notable persons involved in such subjects, broadly construed. This would include editing any section of of any biographies that deal with said subjects.

The topic ban expires on April 12, 2012.

Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 23:53, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

False, there was not such consensus. If decision was based on 9 users who have supported the ban, then suggestions and opinions from 7 users were junked, they who opposed the ban. -- ClaudioSantos¿? 02:33, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Combativeness is not what is needed. Self-criticism is. Carrite (talk) 16:09, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

I can not agree. Criticism is superfluos, because what is not coherent to its concept, soon or later collapses. What is needed here is to mention that criticism is based on and is coming from capitalism, which is the underlying and incoherent structure, that deserves all combativeness in order to collapse it, better now than too late. -- ClaudioSantos¿? 18:07, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Addendum> If self-criticism is indeed a philosophical, political and therapeutical practice, then it has to be mentioned that WP:NOTSOAPBOX prohibits any user to promote its philosophical, political or therapeutical causes and opinions. -- ClaudioSantos¿? 00:35, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

For your information

Hounding? Night of the Big Wind _talk 22:23, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

Some bubble tea for you!

Some bubble tea for standing up to an admin! Olaf the Shakinglord: Mailbox, ??? 15:39, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Question you may have missed

I do agree: these are double-standars and Jimbo encourages them. -- ClaudioSantos¿? 19:07, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

   I do not encourage double standards at all. Can you explain to me why you said this?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:43, 15 November 2011 (UTC) 

(from my talk page)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:15, 15 November 2011 (UTC)