Misplaced Pages

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Misplaced Pages languages

Interesting piece in the Guardian today about the work of some Oxford University researchers: The world of Misplaced Pages's languages mapped. 75.59.227.116 (talk) 16:11, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

I have mentioned this to the editors of Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost.

—Wavelength (talk) 05:11, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

This covers only English Misplaced Pages as is stated on the map when you click on it. It would be more interesting to see a map of all Misplaced Pages languages. Naturally people are more likely to contribute in their own native language. S_peakF_{ree (contribs)} 19:46, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

The article (The world of Misplaced Pages's languages mapped | News | guardian.co.uk) has maps for English, French, Arabic, Egyptian Arabic, Persian, and Swahili.

—Wavelength (talk) 21:55, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

This visualization won the prize at WikiSym this year & is truely global, though using different data from the Oxford one. It's a hard link to find by the way, they should update the WikiSym site “A Thousand Fibers Connect Us — Misplaced Pages’s Global Reach". Hours of fun! Johnbod (talk) 13:58, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Wavelength, I hadn't thought of The Signpost. I did add it just now to Misplaced Pages:Press coverage 2011, which I found by way of The Signpost talk page. Finding anything here is like sorting through a jumble drawer. 75.59.227.116 (talk) 22:34, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Editor's index to Misplaced Pages can help editors to find useful pages. Misplaced Pages Signpost is listed under "News".

—Wavelength (talk) 01:58, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages – The Missing Manual is helpful, also.

—Wavelength (talk) 04:49, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Thank you, but Misplaced Pages:Press coverage 2011 is NOT listed in either of those two sources. This is a list of what links to it. This is yet another example of how Misplaced Pages is highly unwelcoming to those who don't know the secret pathways which continue to increase. Wikimedia says it's Misplaced Pages's problem, and Misplaced Pages says it's not a problem at all. Brilliant. 75.59.227.116 (talk) 17:42, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

From Misplaced Pages:Six degrees of Misplaced Pages, I visited Link Two Articles on Misplaced Pages, and I found this chain of links.

• Misplaced Pages => Reliability of Misplaced Pages => Misplaced Pages:Press coverage

—Wavelength (talk) 19:26, 14 November 2011 (UTC) and 19:27, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

References

Missing info

HABLAN DE CRIMENES DE LEZA HUMANIDAD COMO EL PALACIO DE JUSTICIA, EL CASO DE MAPIRIPAN, LOS ASESINATOS DE TRUJILLO PERO NUNCA NOMBRAN EL ASESINATO DE LO POBRES CAMPESINOS Y EL PROFESOR GONZALO QUE MURIERON EN COMBATES POR NUESTRO GLORIOSO Y HORROSO EJERCITO NACIONAL Y DE SUS FAMILIAS QUE NADIE SE ACUERDA ENTONCES QUE ESTAMOS HACIENDO — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.112.101.193 (talk) 15:58, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

Google translation: TALK ABOUT CRIMES OF HUMANITY AS LEZA COURTHOUSE, THE CASE OF Mapiripán, the assassination of Trujillo BUT NOT NAMED THE MURDER OF THE POOR FARMERS AND GONZALO TEACHER WHO DIED IN FIGHT FOR OUR GLORIOUS AND ARMY NATIONAL HORROSO AND THEIR FAMILIES NOBODY IS AGREED THAT WE ARE DOING SO. Looie496 (talk) 16:41, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, Looie496. Of course, I'm still not sure what it means, if anything.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:20, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

It's either WP:SOAPBOX, or that some article, somewhere in the various linguistic editions of Misplaced Pages needs a WP:SOFIXIT (but the specific article might be semi'd...the Trujillo name rings a bell for some reason) (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 11:59, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Probably Rafael Trujillo, long-time dictator of the Dominican Republic. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 14:47, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Where "every word doth almost tell"

I was amazed that Misplaced Pages does not currently note the pun, with the Shakespeare authorship question, to compare the line from Sonnet 76, about the name "de Vere". For years, the pun has been noted elsewhere, in the line "that every word doth almost tell my name" with the name "deVere" and the word "eVery" as almost telling the name. This is just another major curious omission, where outside sources note the connection, but it is found nowhere in Misplaced Pages. The concern is not just the years when plays were published, and the potential for unfinished plays to be pen-named later, but also the possible double entendre in that unusual line of poetry. Add this to the long list of simple, easy topics to add to Misplaced Pages. -Wikid77 (talk) 17:29, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

We have policy for this sort of thing Wikid77 (we have policy for eveything!)-WP:SOFIXIT. Basically if you see a gap, jump in and be bold. Ceoil (talk) 17:37, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

When it comes to the Shakespeare authorship question, boldness is not the best advice for ideas that may be viewed as fringe. Bringing it up on the article's talk page is the best advice. Looie496 (talk) 17:42, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. Ceoil (talk) 18:35, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

I only sort of agree. I think the area needs a large influx of uninvolved editors to help alleviate the ongoing issues of general hostility. I have no opinion at all about the particular issue that Wikid77 has raised, since I know next to nothing about it. But speaking philosophically, the idea that views that are academically fringe but popularly repeated must be systematically *excluded* from Misplaced Pages strikes me as completely wrong. Rather, we have a responsibility to educate the public that although such things are commonly repeated, they are given little (or even no) credibility by authorities.

The reason I do agree, though only partly, with Looie496, is that it's really hard to recommend to anyone without a bit of a caveat or warning to go into an area like that and "be bold". It's going to be an unpleasant experience, I'm afraid, if you do - even if it is the right thing for Misplaced Pages.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:01, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

There are no reasons at all to expect an unpleasant experience if an editor works responsibly and in conformity to Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines and—in the SAQ area—pays attention to the final arbitration decision. Both new editors and those who should know better encounter friction when trying to insert inappropriate material and links into other articles. In the case of Wikid77's above suggestion, the place for that would be in the Oxfordian theory of Shakespeare authorship article, not the Shakespeare authorship question article (which is for more generic anti-Stratfordian material), and not the Shakespeare's sonnets article or the Sonnet 76 page. A good basic understanding of the WP:FRINGE guidelines and the WP:NPOV polices, especially WP:WEIGHT and WP:ONEWAY, would go a long way to resolving the great majority of problems engendered by that area of Misplaced Pages. Tom Reedy (talk) 02:58, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't agree with you. The hostility I have seen in that area goes far beyond that sort of thing. Someone can come in, adhere to policy perfectly well, and get treated very badly. It's an ugly situation.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:45, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

A few examples would be useful. Tom Reedy (talk) 13:07, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Naming names might cause an escalation, but the main point is to be more welcoming, and more subtle in rejecting ideas. People get the message by just saying, "I am not sure there is much support for that view," rather than, "If you continue to push your pet fringe theories, it can only end badly for you". Something to consider. -Wikid77 14:16, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

I was asking for examples of editors coming in and adhering to policy and being treated badly. An explicit warning to an experienced editor seems prudent to me and could even avoid a future confrontation, but I gather that's not what Jim's talking about. I'm as tired as anybody else of the constant jockeying for advantage. It would be a better situation for all if editors understood and conformed to policies instead of looking for loopholes and quoting them out of context. One would have thought that the arbitration would have made things clearer for all, but one would be wrong in thinking so, wouldn't one? Tom Reedy (talk) 14:42, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

redirect

It appears to have been recreated - Misplaced Pages:Run to Mommy - Off2riorob (talk) 12:50, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

The discussion for the redirect is at Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2011 November 13 - perhaps it needs wider publicity. I am pretty certain the community is against the creation of such a redirect. Off2riorob (talk) 12:53, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Indeed.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:05, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't endorse the language used by Pink Oboe above, but I do endorse his (?) request: please undelete this. There was an active deletion discussion in progress, the redirect does not unambiguously meet the speedy-deletion criteria, there is precedent for similar redirects (see the various redirects to ANI, for example), and your deletion circumvented the established process for dealing with such discussions. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:17, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Non of the redirects to ANI are comparable and demeaning and attacking towards users that work there and to the whole dispute resolution process. If I had the tool I would have deleted and protected it on sight and there would have been no discussion. It was basically an attack redirect without a single beneficial use apart from that.Off2riorob (talk) 13:30, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

"Cesspit"? I don't see how this particular redirect is particularly "demeaning and attacking towards users that work there", and quite honestly I think this particular part of the DR process merits the redirect. A good analogy would be the frequent reference to RfA as "poisonous" - it reflects the state/effect of the process, not necessarily the relative merits of contributors there. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:36, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

ANI:Cesspit is incomparable imo. Calling ANI a cesspit is totally different to demeaning users with such comments as, go on then ya big sissy, run to Mommy. I think you are not looking at the problems usage of such a redirect would cause and the detrimental affect it would have on dispute resolution. Off2riorob (talk) 13:47, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Rob, your argument was that the redirect was insulting to contributors at WQA. Which, to your mind, is more offensive: suggesting that a user is raw sewage, or suggesting that they are a maternal figure? Your argument is simply illogical. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:56, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

ANI:Cesspit simple describes what we all know that ANI can get messy sometimes and that if your get reported there you are likely in the proverbial s**t. Totally different to you running to your Mommy every time you don't like something. Off2riorob (talk) 14:05, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

...which similarly describes "what we all know" and is a fairly accurate depiction of WQA. Look, there's no need to rehash the whole deletion discussion here - what should happen is that the out-of-process deletion is reversed and the discussion allowed to reach whatever conclusion community consensus decides. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:23, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't know what you are so down on the dispute resolution for - you only have one single contribution there from Nov 2010. Off2riorob (talk) 14:37, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

There's a very good reason for that, which is completely irrelevant to this discussion - again, this is about the out-of-process deletion, not the deletion arguments themselves. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:43, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Its a speedy delete of an attack redirect. Off2riorob (talk) 14:46, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Doesn't meet G10: not unambiguous, attack is not its only purpose. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:07, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Good call, Jimbo. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 13:18, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

To belittle and demean users - its enough of an attack creation for a speedy delete. Off2riorob (talk) 15:18, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

I cheerfully tossed in the first keep, more for a poke in the eye of the ridiculousness of WQA than anything, but really guys, this doesn't stance a chance in hell of being retained. Let it go. Tarc (talk) 13:27, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Tarc --Guerillero | My Talk 14:45, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Agreed as well. Besides, the redirect is ambiguous. Thinking on recent discussions I've seen/been involved with, "Run to Mommy (Daddy)" could apply to any of WQA, ANI, ARBCOM or even this very talk page. I admit, I chuckled, but this redirect serves only to demean the people that, well, run to mommy. WP:PITCHFORKS for ANI might be my favourite redirect, btw. Resolute 16:45, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Closing RFDs

I am concerned that when you closed Misplaced Pages:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2011_November_13 as a speedy deletion you violated Misplaced Pages:SPEEDY, unless, of course, it was an office action. I don't believe it's appropriate for admins to super-vote - even if they are voting correctly. Please consider not taking abrupt unnecessary action in the future - there is no rush, and not only did you prevent non-admins from reversing your action, you also used your gravitas as "founder." Such actions should be reserved for things that really need it. Thanks. Hipocrite (talk) 13:46, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

I think that from time to time it is valuable to remind people that WP:NPA is hard policy, and that civility really does matter. Snarky comments should not be given the luxury of a serious discussion and debate as if this were a serious matter to consider. Delete, salt if necessary, move on. Users whose talk page shows an astonishing degree of incivility should be blocked permanently without batting an eye, as they are destructive to our purpose of building soman encyclopedia - I won't take that last step myself, but it would be good for the encyclopedia to re-establish the principle that insults are absolutely unacceptable.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:51, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

I have added your new speedy deletion category as G13. Hipocrite (talk) 13:53, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, but there is no new rationale needed, no new policy needed. Existing policy more than covers this sort of thing.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:13, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Could you point out where? Thanks. Hipocrite (talk) 14:17, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Sorry to bother you again but... somebody's losing it... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 14:14, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

WP:POINT is a blockable offense, and I think it's about time for it. When you add to his shocking violations of WP:NPA (see his talk page for example) I'm astonished it hasn't happened already.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:17, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Jimbo, creating a template page does not disrupt the encyclopedia. I'm really concerned that you are advocating for a block here. Hipocrite (talk) 14:19, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Ahem. Just saying... Delicious carbuncle (talk) 14:38, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

That is loud quacking indeed. Can someone block him - User:WebHamster indefed on November 6th 2009 - User:The Pink Oboe created November 6, 2009 - with an unbelievable liking of some totally obscure articles - Off2riorob (talk) 15:16, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

This "Stalker" output apparently only outputs pages where both editors edited. There is no list of discordant pages which have been edited by exactly one editor. The output is worthless for making decisions about sock-puppets. It is shocking that Off2riorob would call for a blocking and label that crap "strong quacking indeed". It should be shocking that Hipocrite (well, maybe not, considering the name) Delicious Carbuncle would post such smearing output in such a passive aggressive manner. (16:46, 14 November 2011 (UTC) Updated: My apologies to Hipocrite for the confusion, which is especially bad because I know that I should double-check names. Sincerely, KW)

That said, a non-lazy editor might do some further digging on these pages and some analysis. It is unfortunate that editors accuse any editor of being a sock-puppet so thoughtlessly.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 15:44, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

What smearing output are you referring to, exactly? I don't recollect posting any smearing output. Hipocrite (talk) 15:54, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Not sure why but there is a lot of opposition to this sock claim and it is quacking so loud its untrue - its been closed down like lightening at SPI. Off2riorob (talk) 15:57, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

The administrator said that the Stalker (so-called) tool's output was utterly inadequate to warrant an SPI search. Your reading will improve if you remove cliches from your thought: You should have to give 25 USD every time you refer to "quacking" on WP.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 17:00, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

You are free to draw your own conclusions about the link I posted earlier, but perhaps you should look at this one before making up your mind completely. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 17:36, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

If you want to make an accusation, write it and deal with the consequences. Please stop this passive-aggressive behavior. Here, your posting the raw output from a very crude tool for detecting only concordant edits (meat-socking/puppet-socking tool) makes a lazy and cowardly accusation against three accounts. Your last smear against two of them was taken to SPI, by Off2RioRob, who at least made a few sentences of intelligent analysis; his SPI-request was declined.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 20:00, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Its totally clear, it's unquestionable for anyone that spends a half an hour investigating the edit history that the three users are the same person. Off2riorob (talk) 20:40, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Kiefer.Wolfowitz, The Pink Oboe is heading towards being indef blocked in the near future for their own actions, so it isn't a good use of anyone's time to do more than point out the obvious. If you think there should be consequences for that, feel free to start a thread on ANI. I'm sure you can find a sympathetic admin who will be only to happy to rap my knuckles. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 21:01, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

This all is one of the main reasons why out-of-process deletions like this one are so often a bad idea. If you had let the discussion run its course, probably none of the current problems would have happened. Fram (talk) 14:22, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. Please see the DRV. Nikkimaria (talk) 17:16, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Timeline

I think that from time to time it is valuable to remind people that WP:NPA is hard policy, and that civility really does matter. --Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:51, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

1. 14:24, November 13, 2011 An admin, Stephan Schulz, tells two users to "Shut the fuck up" at WQA.
2. 18:13, 13 November 2011 (UTC) SandyGeorgia starts a discussion of the civility double standards at Malleus's talk page.
3. 19:02, November 13, 2011 (UTC) approximately The Pink Oboe posts a "Run to mommy" redirect to WQA.
4. 19:26 and 19:27, November 13, 2011 (UTC) Off2riorob posts (then removes) a vulgarity directed at Pink Oboe.
5. 12:45, November 14, 2011 (UTC) While missing two gross instances of uncivil posting-- one from a admin, both specifically directed at other editors—Jimbo goes out of process to close an RfD that might offend a vague "someone" while curiously stating that "civility really does matter".

So, if "civility really does matter", why didn't you (YOU, Jimbo) do something about the two gross instances of incivility or say something to those editors while you deleted the redirect and dealt with The Pink Oboe? Is there nothing that will draw attention to the civility double standard on Misplaced Pages, and how it is frequently (and falsely) claimed that content contributors get a free pass while admins get away with whatever they want? I apologize if you actually did do something to address the underlying uncivil admin post that led to all of this, but if you did, I can't find it. An admin can tell two other editors to "shut the fuck up", and no one bats an eyelash at the Administrators' noticeboard. Yep, civility really does matter. So, ANI is a cesspool, WQA is "run to mommy", and now you, Jimbo, have put yourself in a position of "run to daddy"-- like many fathers, you wandered in to a scuffle, listened to half a story, meted out some punishment, and wandered off, while the real "civility" abuser got off scot free. If you are serious about civility (and there was no NPA except the retracted one from Off2riorob), then DO something about it as BOLD as you did about the Redirect-- start with Stephan Schulz. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:10, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

I didn't punish anyone. I am serious about personal attacks, particularly coming from admins, this is the first I have heard of it. I didn't "wander off" I'm right here. No one has gotten off scot free. And if you think there was no personal attack from The Pink Oboe, you haven't been paying attention. Go read his talk page. Look at his edit history. It is a constant stream of abuse. He called me a "fucking programmer", whatever that means. It's not acceptable. And yes, if an admin behaves in that way, they should be desysopped. There should be no double standards on civility, and crying about double standards should never be a reason to let someone get away with bad behavior. Let's clean house. If people are here to work together in mutual respect to get something useful done, then great. If they are here to abuse and harass others, let's be done with them so we can have a better environment. Gentle outreach to newcomers who are behaving badly is the right thing to do. But for a user who has been around - sockpuppet or no - as long as The Pink Oboe, there's no reason to put up with it any more.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:16, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Correct that you haven't "wandered off", correct that I didn't know you were addressing The Pink Oboe's entire editing history in the one diff to his talk page, and for "cleaning house": money --> mouth --> Stephan Schulz. No way is this "civility" business ever going to be anything but a double standard and a joke if Malleus gets blocked for "arse" while admins can tell two editors to "shut the fuck up" and not an eyelash is batted an AN. If we're serious, let's start where the problem starts (admin abuse and double standards in enforcement of civility and personal attacks). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:30, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

I have now spoken to both Stephan Schulz and Off2Riorob. Thanks for calling those things to my attention. My primary interest here is to encourage everyone to reach within ourselves for a higher standard of behavior. Responding to people like Malleus when he's misbehaving by misbehaving further does not resolve the problem. Instead, insisting that everyone behave themselves is the right way forward. I don't think there is a huge and ongoing problem with a double standard, but there are people - respected editors, respected admins too - who really should rethink this issue.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:33, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for the quick response. Now, as to Malleus and moi-- as long as admin abuse goes on and is frequently directed at Malleus (or any editor who has contributed as much as he has to our mainpage), I will try to cheer him on whenever he is affected. The notion that all that has been directed at him doesn't bother him is bunk, and that is why others rally whenever it inevitably happens again. That is not the same as defending any perceived misbehavior-- since it is almost always about pointing out the double standard. When admins are dealt with the same way that Malleus is dealt with, then folks will have an argument about Malleus's perceived indiscretions. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:39, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Regarding Malleus, Jimbo, your comments are really unfair. If you look at his talk page now, you can see that he has immediately rushed to help high-school students with their AP Biology projects and given a lot of help to other users. You should not be spreading the scapegoating of Malleus here, particularly when he is being so helpful to new editors and acting as an exemplary Wikipedian.

In my experience, Malleus describes others' behavior roughly only when he is responding to rudeness or personal attacks or when anybody would be exasperated by another editor's cluelessness.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 17:12, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

I didn't really say much about Malleus, so I don't see how it is unfair. My point is that when he misbehaves (you concede that he does, although you justify it on his behalf), the right answer is not to misbehave back at him. I don't see how that's unfair to him.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:20, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

I did not justify misbehavior by MF. Violations of WP:Retaliation or exasperation are human failings. I object to your bringing up MF, gratuitiously and without mentioning the context, especially the frequent provocations/personal-attacks by administrators against him, in a discussion of double standards. Your error was alleging that MF is the one misbehaving and that others should not retaliate against him, when a look at the record shows that the first blood drawn has usually been his.

You are quoted (like objectivists quote Ayn Rand) by the youth at RfA deform, who mimic your behavior without your careful phrasing. The RfA discussions feature frequent PAs against MF, and you can set a better example.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 17:33, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

I didn't bring up MF, someone else did. I don't see how you can characterize me responding to someone else as bringing him up gratuitously. I do not agree with your analysis of the record in his case.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:43, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Let me add that I didn't tell anybody to shut up. I told two editors engaged in what can be politely phrased as "an unconstructive personal discussion" that they can shut the fuck up. Apparently this subtle distinction was not universally perceived. I'll try for less subtlety in the future. However, I'll strongly maintain that indeed civility is more than skin-deep, and is not determined by a list of seven dirty words, but rather by cases of personal attacks, suggestions of bad faith (no matter how politely phrased), cases of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT, intentionally missing the point, splitting hairs when either of the half hairs leads to the same result, and so on. In other words, it requires people to pay attention to semantics, not just to syntax. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 16:40, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes, well, non-admins don't have the luxury of making the same argument about semantics v syntax-- instead, they find themselves on the end of a block, and then escalating blocks as other admins use the block log as a further excuse to block. So, best advice to you is to stop rationalizing your inappropriate response and behave as expected of admins so civility enforcement will be equal. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:52, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

I dislike the administrator/writer double standard, however .... Stephen Schulz's comment seemed to me at first, and still seems to me, to have been intended with humor/good-will, and should be read in the context of the thread, which was then closing. It was not Stephen's first comment to an editor, coming out of nowhere, where it would have been utterly inappropriate. Even so, its reception, even by the tolerant SandyGeorgia, reminds us to use caution with "fuck" and to use winks and smiles liberally. :)  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 17:05, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

On Stephen's talk page, somebody explained that "Shut the fuck up" is often used humorously, recalling (my hero) Walter Sobchak.

Now, all of you who cannot find something better to do are about to enter a world of pain ....  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 08:47, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

SandyGeorgia....those that feel Malleus is at the very least "difficult" aren't delusional.MONGO 17:33, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

And yet another discussion of the double standard goes off-topic to Malleus, who had nothing to do with the entire incident (other than me posting about it to his talk). Beating this dead horse is boring: simple point is, what would happen if Malleus told two editors to "shut the fuck up" and why can an admin do it and then argue "semantics"? I'm equally dismayed at Jimbo's characterization of Malleus ("people like Malleus"), but that's enough for today from me. If the point hasn't been made clearly, it's hopeless. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:38, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

There is no reason to have hope. Hope is not a natural but is a theological virtue.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 17:42, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Sandy...yes, double standards.MONGO 18:05, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Speaking for myself, I'm rather fond of the f word. So fond, I utter it only amongst close friends, or if not in anger or whatever, perhaps to those who can see my face and/or hear the spin of how I say it. In my travels throughout the world, I've said to folks who didn't learn how to speak English with other kids on the playgrounds, don't even think about trying to say it, you'll get it wrong and sooner or later piss someone off, or turn them off. Likewise me saying it to the latter and more or less never online (alas). Anyway, if there's any topic where Jimmy and I seem to think alike, it's this one. Be cool, try to be what he calls "professional." It takes one far, in ways both seen and unseen. It's worthwhile. Only my 2 pence. Oh and as to hope, my take on that is straightforward. Without some kind of meaningful faith, yep, give up all hope. Gwen Gale (talk) 17:47, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

I would point out this is the English language Misplaced Pages. Some words which are considered highly offensive in the US are commonly used in the UK and other English-speaking countries and are considered casual slang rather than serious insults. Let's be aware of cultural differences, and that we are separated by a common language. iow, stop using words once you know others interpret them differently than you do, and stop assuming everyone using a word means it in the worst possible way. AGF and do unto others as you would have them do unto you. 75.59.227.116 (talk) 17:58, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't think any of this is about particular words.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:43, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

I do agree: these are double-standars and Jimbo encourages them. -- ClaudioSantos¿? 19:07, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

I do not encourage double standards at all. Can you explain to me why you said this?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:43, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

What a surprise; like a bad smell made even worse by a short retirement, MONGO again wafts into a room to have a pop at Malleus, and in doing so calls a range of editors "delusional". And note the distinct lack of any NPA warning on his talk page. Parrot of Doom 21:11, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Hum...no, not what I wrote at all...in responding to SandyGeorgia, I merely stated that those that think Malleus is "difficult" (which was an extremely kind generalization from my perspective) are not (aren't) delusional.MONGO 21:29, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

It's quite clear that your only reason for posting here is to have another pop at Malleus. Perhaps you should spend more time defending poor-quality articles. Parrot of Doom 21:50, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

That isn't the case. It's very disappointing that chronic and persistant incivility by any editor is defended.--MONGO 03:31, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

I agree.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:43, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

One doubts that you read this page Jimbo, before making that reply. MONGO is obviously here with an agenda that has little to do with civility. Parrot of Doom 09:34, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Why are Mongo and Malleus not under a community sanction not to interact with or comment on each other's actions and motivations? It's not quite six of one half a dozen of the other, but neither party is all sweetness and light (and one-sided interaction bans rarely work, cf Russavia-Biophys). This should allow both of them to get on with more productive tasks than throwing mud at one another? Thryduulf (talk) 10:57, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

WTF? MF isn't here. Does he have a history of seeking out Mongo?  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 11:42, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't know. I was responding to my reading of the discussion Parrot of Doom linked to as much as what is written on this page (I should have made that clear, sorry), where the back and forth between them was not a good advert for anything, regardless of who started it. Also, as I did make clear above, one-sided interaction bans very rarely work. Thryduulf (talk) 12:00, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Odd, it was the comments made by Malleus at that GAR and the talk page of the article in review which led a neutral admin to place a warning of impending topic ban (per arbcom expectation) on Malleus's usertalk...I made it clear that having that article remain a GA was of less importance than ensuring conspiracy and fringe theories (which Malleus wanted to see added) were minimized. IF I was "targeting" Malleus...I could have already submitted an arbcom case with his name flashing atop it...instead the hope is that the next time an admin blocks someone (including me if need be) for persistent incivility, one of the editors buddies doesn't sweep in to unblock without a clear mandate to do so.MONGO 18:00, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Elizabeth Windsor is a large shareholding retiree, who was predominantly unemployed throughout her working life, and occasionally a celebrity or military support worker. She has large unspecified political powers. And she keeps her emphatic-adjective mouth shut in public about politics, because of the examples of her extended family members who didn't, and lost their crowns or heads. Fifelfoo (talk) 21:53, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

• Perhaps sentence them to 100 WQA replies: I have tried to remind people that, in olden tymes, the punishment for saying the "wrong things" was having the tongue cut out. For WP's personal attacks, I am thinking a better action would be to "sentence" NPA-violators to have to post "100 replies" for WP:WQA, to explain to people how snarky comments are poisonous to WP collaborative efforts. Having to defuse 100 other snarky comments is probably the best method for teaching people to remain more civil. Plus, we would be fighting fire with fire: people who have so much time to insult others could spend that time trying to remind others to be more polite. Think of the result: 1,000 people each posting 100 reminders at WP:WQA. They would be fighting each other as to who could be more polite. -Wikid77 (talk) 01:15, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
  • For the record, I absolutely did not block Malleus for using the word "arse". I blocked him for repeatedly insulting Tbhotch and Nick Levinson after I had warned him against making personal attacks. The fact that Sandy is gladly willing to excuse any abusive behavior from her friends but insists that an admin using the word "fuck" is grounds for action is the height of hypocrisy, especially since Malleus tells people to "fuck off" on a regular basis, but no one bats an eyelash. So who has the double standard? Kaldari (talk) 07:54, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
    • I agree. Those who are upset about double standards should be careful not to have one themselves.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:43, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
      • Then really Kaldari, it is long overdue that you yourself become transparent, and give the precise diffs for which you now claim you blocked Malleus. It certainly seemed clear to me at the time, and I presume most everyone else, that you made your block on Malleus because he mentioned the word "arse". I'm amazed that you stood aside all this time if that was not the case, and allowed all this venting on Misplaced Pages. You must be aware by now that in the United States, for reasons I would not dare to speculate on here, there seem to be many people profoundly terrorized by the mere mention of that, to them, most fraught word. A reaction not shared by people from other countries. --Epipelagic (talk) 09:26, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
        • I don't know how Kaldari decides on admin actions, but in my experience, blocks are rarely issued for "precise diffs", but for a persistent pattern of problematic behavior. Remember that blocks are supposed to be preventative, not punitive. I've not followed Malleus activity on Misplaced Pages (in fact, I was barely aware of him (gender assumed from the user name) before this unexpected outbreak), so I won't comment on the specific case. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 09:48, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
          • As an editor inserting myself into this discussion I will just say that I have never been blocked but have been given a gentle "advisement" by Kaldari which, under the cirumstances was totally appropriate though I might have wished he had also adived the other editor involved. My personal favorite editor is Off2riorob who, in my opinion is fair and just and if he loses his temper now and then, is generally for good reason. My trouble, speaking as a woman, has been with the unfairness of certain women administrators, who, quite frankly, and speaking as one who has had power in my past vocation, do not know how to use their power. They come in and edit an article as an editor and then come down like a hammer on other editors that do not agree with them, as an administrator. When you attempt to engage them they ignore you and delete your remarks off their page as if you were non-existent. They do not even feel the need to reference their changes and leave it up to others to do. I wish something could be done about these certain few who I am sure you all know. That is all I have to say and I am sorry if this is not quite the right place to say it but it had to be said since it is getting out of hand. I would never aspire to be an administrator because it would take all the fun out of Wiki for me. Mugginsx (talk) 12:30, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
            • I sincerely hope that Off2riorob is not an administrator, certainly not with views like this. Parrot of Doom 12:35, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
              • Changed it, I thought he was. I cannot comment on your example because I do not know the people involved he is talking about. We all have bad days. I will say that he is a veteran editor and if he isn't an administrator maybe he should be. He can cetainly find the abusers. My point is that not enough is being done to monitor especially certain blantantly abusive women administrators. It serves to make editors feel useless. Mugginsx (talk) 12:38, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
                • This is fairly inflammatory talk, Mugginsx. Unless you can back that up I'd lay of categorizing any class of administrators grouped by sex, ethnicity, religion, or national origin as being demonstrably inferior to any other class of administrators. Sheesh. Herostratus (talk) 15:19, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
                  • I said "some" and "few" and "certain women" and never said "inferior". I stand by it and it is not nearly as inflammatory as some of the statements made here on this very page so, like it or not like it, is entirely your own decision. Mugginsx (talk) 16:18, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
                    • Not necessarily. If you're going to double down on the path of deprecating a class of editors (even with the modifier "some", which doesn't much help) by sex, ethnicity, religion, or national origin, then your fate may pass out of your own hands or mine. This is just flat unacceptable and not what we are about here, I would say. Herostratus (talk) 16:53, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
                      • "by sex, ethnicity, religion, or national origin" - does this apply to age too? Or not? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 18:43, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
                        • Not always. It depends. But constructions like "Gang of forty-something geezer admins ruining Misplaced Pages" and so forth are probably not helpful either. Is this a common problem? I don't recall Mugginsx mentioning anyone's age. Herostratus (talk) 19:19, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
                          • It depends? Hmm, I think the acceptability of mentioning the sex of a group of people "depends" as well then. I imagine different people have different views on whether either situation is commonly problematic. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 19:39, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
                            • No they don't, not people who wish to live in civil society and be considered gentlemen. Look, there's a difference between saying "Is Misplaced Pages turning into an Eternal September?" and saying "Is Misplaced Pages turning into da hood?" or "...a gay bathhouse" or "...a powder room" or whatever. "You kids get off my lawn!" is not the same as "You Koreans get off my lawn". I can't believe you're defending this guy. Am I really outnumbered here? If open and overtly expressed misogyny, racism, homophobia, and so forth is going to be just a "different view" here, then game over, I'd say. Herostratus (talk) 19:59, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
                              • I'm not seeing any "open and overtly expressed misogyny, racism, homophobia, and so forth" on this page. If there were any, I believe it would be a breach of Misplaced Pages's policy on civility, which is one of the five pillars, and thus should be removed. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:07, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
                                • If you are talking about me Herostratus, I am not a guy. Mugginsx (talk) 21:05, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
                                  • "he unfairness of certain women administrators". "lantantly abusive women administrators". There's no reason to use the term "woman" in those passages except simple misogyny of the most loathsome stripe. If it was in the context of complaining about woman administrators abusing power to push POV in the Susan B. Anthony article or whatever, it would make some sense (though still being an egregiously inflammatory construct). But it's not. It's simply a general attack on women administrators as a class. Unbe-freaken-lievable that this is considered acceptable discourse here. Functional organizations don't permit that, period. Herostratus (talk) 07:27, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

US-centrism: a big problem for Misplaced Pages

This Signpost page on recent featured content presents a nice summation of a big problem in Misplaced Pages, and one which US Wikipedians invariably pooh-pooh, because they can't see a problem. The problem is this: Misplaced Pages is supposed to be an international encyclopaedia, catering to an English-speaking audience around the world. Many of these people will not have a good grasp of global geography. The US is routinely presented in Misplaced Pages as the 'default' country, although no one country is supposed to have primacy (and I'm not talking about numbers of readers by country - I'm talking about content). Rarely in a US-based article is the country given. It is considered sufficient by the US editors who write it just to give city and state. "Because, of course, we all know that Boise, Idaho is in the US, don't we? And if we don't, we should, and besides, it's only one blue click away to find out." My point is: we shouldn't have to blue click. Such utterly, utterly basic information as the country involved should be presented on the page.

A quick survey of the blurbs on the Signpost page:

Non-US based articles

• Geoffrey 'England' mentioned
• St Nicholas, Blakeney 'UK' and 'English' mentioned
• Knowle West, Bristol 'UK' and 'British' mentioned
• HMS Eagle 'British' mentioned
• Chaplain–Medic massacre 'Korean' mentioned
• List of Tranmere Rovers F.C. managers 'England' mentioned
• List of official County Championship winners 'England' and 'Wales' mentioned

US-based articles

• Philadelphia Phillies all-time roster (T–V) No country mentioned; not even the state
• List of Arkansas Razorbacks head football coaches No country mentioned, just the state
• List of Clemson Tigers head football coaches No country mentioned, just the state
• Babe Ruth Award Hurrah! The country is mentioned!!!
• List of Chicago White Sox managers No country mentioned; not even the state

So we can see that every single non-US entry has its country given, while only one in five, a measly 20%, of US entries has the country mentioned. The US has a reputation for being parochial and inward-looking; this arrogant assumption that the US is so important and well-known that editors need not bother to specify the country is infuriating, and I see it time and time again in Misplaced Pages articles. It makes Misplaced Pages look ridiculous too - how can it claim to contain as comprehensive coverage as other encyclopaedias if it doesn't even bother to give absolute basics? Try clicking on 'random article' and see how many US-based ones don't bother to give the country, even indirectly.

Please can something be done to ensure that such basic information is provided, every single time? 86.143.70.9 (talk) 10:22, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

When you provided it, who reverted you and when? :) Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 10:46, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

I checked the 26 US-based entries of Paris at Paris (disambiguation). There's only 2 out of 26 that don't mention the US in the lead: Paris, Tennessee and Paris, Virginia, but they do mention it in the infobox. - DVdm (talk) 10:47, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

I volunteered to add what needed to be added. Now there's 0 out of 26 :-) - DVdm (talk) 12:40, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

I agree 100%. English Misplaced Pages should be global, but unfortunately it is often very US-centric (or anglophone centric in general). You have listed some good examples. The US is way too often the "default" country. And many articles only discuss the United States- or Britain- related parts of the article subject. We need more attention to this problem, and a coordinated effort to solve it. The problem includes two aspects: 1) Often, information about non-Anglophone countries simply does not exist in articles even when these articles claim to discuss the subject in a global and general way. This can be fixed by adding the missing information. 2) Often, the United States (and other anglophone countries) are given preferential treatment (like in the examples listed by 86.143.70.9 above) or the article is otherwise biased towards an American or anglophone POV. This can be fixed by making editors more aware by the problem. Some possible tools to achieve this include essays, signpost articles and new Wikiprojects. Even just a simple statement by a high-profile person (such as Jimbo) admitting that English Misplaced Pages still has a lot to do if it aims to be truly a global, and not just an American or British Misplaced Pages, would help a lot. Nanobear (talk) 10:56, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

All that might be true, but why the OP doesn't know where Idaho is while I'm supposed to know where Romania is is beyond me. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 11:02, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Romania is a country, Idaho is a sub-national entity. Expecting people to know that e.g. Wyoming is a US state is the equivalent of expecting people to know that Charente-Maritime, Cuando Cubango, Bimini and Almaty are first level subdivisions of France, Angola, the Bahamas and Kazakhstan respectively. In my view it is reasonable to expect people to either know where a country is or to look it up if they don't, but it is not reasonable to expect them to know which country a subdivsion is in. While many more anglophone readers will know Ohio is a US state than will know that Oryol is a Russian Oblast, NPOV requires us to treat all countries equally. Thryduulf (talk) 11:54, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

You are correct. It is rampant within articles about people/places in the U.S. As an American, I never noticed it until now, but perhaps there should be an guideline or announcement of some kind. Mugginsx (talk) 16:55, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

There is one at WP:PLACE#United States. The beauty of online encyclopedias that contain wikilinks, is that the articles don't need to include every single mundane detail. Clicking on links helps eleviate most of that. Also there is little reason to disambiguate a place name in the United States once it has been identified.--JOJ 20:28, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

We're not talking about article names here. We're talking about adding the words "United States" (or similar as appropriate) to the lead sentence of articles dealing with places/topics realted to that country. For example (taking the first US place that I arrived at from a random article link), we're talking about changing "Mammoth Mountain is a lava dome complex west of the town of Mammoth Lakes, California in the Inyo National Forest of Madera County and Mono County" to "Mammoth Mountain is a lava dome complex west of the town of Mammoth Lakes, California, United States in the Inyo National Forest…". Hardly earth shattering. The point is that the country is not a "mundane detail", nor does "Place, State" necessarily identify a location as being in the United States to a worldwide audience. Compare, the Simonsberg article: "Simonsberg (Afrikaans:Simon's Mountain) is part of the Cape Fold Belt in the Western Cape province of South Africa". Thryduulf (talk) 21:08, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Actually WP:PLACE is and has been interpreted by many others to refer to more than just article titles, but to the article as a whole. These proposed changes are not within the MOS guideline. Disambiguation is not needed beyond. many Americans may not know that Liberia is in Africa, but we don't add Africa to the end of it now do we. It matters little whether or not non-Americans know that Iowa is in the united States, as long as there are wikilinks to click on.--JOJ 21:56, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

I know that U.S.-centrism is a problem here and I favor reasonable corrective measures. Maybe its just me, but when I read "The CN Tower is a communications and observation tower in Downtown Toronto, Ontario, Canada", I can't help thinking that mentioning Toronto alone would have been sufficient. Looking at Big Ben, I note that England is not mentioned until the fifth sentence, and is not wikilinked. That being said, I can't really object to the United States identifier being added to the lead whenever any editor sincerely thinks that it is useful. To disclose my personal bias, I am a Californian, have been to the top of both Mammoth Mountain and the CN Tower, and once saw a spectacular view of Big Ben from an airplane window. In my opinion, some cities and subnational place names are so well known that they don't require the country name immediately thereafter. London, Tokyo, Paris, Beijing, Rome, Cairo, Toronto, Baghdad, Brasilia, Hanoi, Stockholm, Athens, Sydney, Kathmandu, Lagos, Capetown and many others come to mind. I think that the better known U.S. states also qualify, such as California and Texas, as well as provinces such as Ontario. But I wouldn't object if someone wants to add Japan every time a topic located in Tokyo is first mentioned, just as long as its in good faith rather than pointy. Cullen Let's discuss it 22:06, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

(ec) While I agree in general that Misplaced Pages tends to be US-centric, I can't agree with this specific criticism. First, England and Wales are subnational entities very much like US states. It's unfair to treat them as equivalent to sovereign states/countries/nations in this context just because the UK has such a weird terminology for its four major subdivisions. (Three of them are routinely called "countries" in many contexts, and even Northern Ireland is referred to in this way in certain formulaic contexts. At least one of them is also commonly referred to as a "nation". They are never referred to as "states", although they are very much the equivalent of states in the US or Germany.) While most people from outside the UK have no trouble locating England (if there is any problem here then it is a lack of awareness and understanding of the more or less subtle differences between "England", "UK", "Great Britain" and "Britain"), a not all our readers will be aware that such an entity as Wales even exists.

Languages come with a package of cultural background that every reasonably educated speaker is supposed to be familiar with. As someone who learned English formally as a second language I was actually taught this package more or less systematically at school. People who learn English informally normally become familiar with the English-language mainstream culture simply because it forms the basis of almost all texts and broadcasts. It is perfectly reasonable for an encyclopedia to assume this mainstream culture as a given.

With this in mind, the question becomes whether it is tricky for too many typical readers to resolve location information such as the following without confusion:

• "Oregon" (US or Canada?)
• "Victoria" (Australia, Canada, or somewhere in Africa?)
• "England" (sovereign state or subnational entity?)
• "Wales" (WTF is it?)
• "Rhode Island" (US state or island near the African coast?)

The answers will differ from case to case, but in the interest of a certain degree of uniformity that makes the encyclopedia easier to use, the way we handle this should be somewhat consistent. Of course it should also be idiomatic. ("London, Ontario" is fine and necessary, but "London, England" sounds weird to British English speakers in most contexts.)

I am afraid there is no perfect solution to this problem. But I consider it perfectly normal and natural if the sovereign state is usually omitted for certain anglophone countries, but always given in full for all other countries. In my opinion this is a harmless built-in bias of any English-language encyclopedia. While I would not mind systematically mentioning sovereign countries in all cases just for consistency, I doubt that this would work in practice. A much more important problem can be seen in many medical articles, for example, which switch back and forth between purely scientific descriptions and specific legal regulations in the US, or US-centric statistics, as if the US covered the entire globe. Hans Adler 22:11, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

"England and Wales are subnational entities very much like US states." No. Just wrong. How many US states have their own language, for a start? Have you ever met an 'Idaho Nationalist'? That such a statement could be made is surely indicative of the very problem we are discussing - it takes the US as the default, to which everything else should be compared. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:52, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

You say that like its a bad thing. As for language, you should hear my ex pronounce "oil" with 1 syllable sometime. Pretty much counts as a separate language. Tarc (talk) 22:55, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Are you trying to be gratuitously offensive? Of course its a bad thing to take one particular nation as the default. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:00, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't know if it is technically possible to accidentally do something gratuitously, so, there you go. English Misplaced Pages for a primarily English audience, there's nothing wrong with that. You bizarrely see grave offense in that, while others see a tempest in a teacup. Tarc (talk) 03:55, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

"Have you ever met an 'Idaho Nationalist'?" Yes. Granted, they're well outnumbered by the Alaskan Nationalists, Hawaiian Nationalists and (of course) Texas Nationalists. 28bytes (talk) 23:01, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Interesting point, Andy. I should start giving "Navajo Nation" instead of AZ or NM; after all, that is officially a sovereign nation (see treaty, 1868). Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 23:04, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

You know that I love you, AndyTheGrump, but you seem not to know very much about the linguistic history of what is now the United States of America. Dutch was the dominant language in what is now known as New York City long before English was. I grew up in Detroit, where French was the dominant language long before English was. There were cities in the Detroit area such as Hamtramck, Michigan where Polish was the dominant language for decades, and still remains significant. The French language tradition in Louisiana was dominant for a long time and remains a significant cultural influence to this day. Spanish was the dominant language in what is now California (where I now live), Arizona, New Mexico, Texas and parts of Florida and Colorado long before English became common. Tens of millions of people still speak Spanish as their first language in those states. Russian was once the dominant language in parts of California near where I now live, as well as in Alaska. Many tribes of Native Americans assert autonomy over areas of the United States, and try, with greater or lesser success, to maintain their indigenous languages. The Navajo language, for example, is important in large swathes of Arizona and New Mexico. Alaskan nationalism exists and her husband's adherence to that movement was a factor in Sarah Palin's rise to fame. Asian languages such as Cantonese, Mandarin, Vietnamese and Thai are widely spoken in neighborhoods in many cities throughout the United States. San Francisco has had a famous Chinatown for at least 150 years, but the fact is that Chinese language and culture has spread throughout that city, and it is a much more Chinese city now than it has ever been. Cullen Let's discuss it 02:48, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

US-Centrism is a serious problem, and it is most immediately apparent in article titles. Recently I initiated an RM for French Quarter. Before I continue with that story folks, what does that title suggest to you?

There is a generalisation of US-centrism to any sort of centrism, of course. Two electorates located in Canada have their articles titled Little Bow and Surrey North, which are both utterly opaque to the vast majority of the readership outside their immediate neighbourhood. Electoral districts in Australian states are named in this style: Electoral district of Newcastle. That one is in the state of New South Wales; but people around the world might guess that it refers to another Newcastle. Even Australians will wonder which Newcastle is meant (given that this is a worldwide encyclopedia); and if they do assume it is Australian, they are likely to confuse it with Division of Newcastle, an Australian federal electorate. Note that one of those titles is qualified by "electoral", but the other is not. (In some states "electoral district" is not in official use; but titles on Misplaced Pages bear that qualifier nonetheless: Electoral district of Albert Park, in the state of Victoria, is normally not called by that name in Victoria.) Certainly the problem is rampant and general. There is great resistance to adding qualifiers that immediately simplify things for everyone, everywhere: Newcastle (NSW electoral district); Newcastle (Australian electoral division); Albert Park District (Victoria, Australia).

The French quarter that wins the privileged title mentioned earlier is – you guessed it – a US one. In New Orleans. It was argued at the RM, which was closed in favour of keeping the title unqualified, that it was the primary topic. WP:PRIMARYTOPIC is a difficult and complex guideline to interpret, yet it is often appealed to as if there is always a primary topic for any title under consideration; and then it is just taken for granted that the best candidate topic for primary status does in fact acquire that status; and as a third error, that acquisition is too often taken as decisive – regardless of the interests of our worldwide readership, and the safeguards in policy at WP:TITLE to ensure that titles are sufficiently precise, natural, and helpful.

I see US bias squarely in that context, as the major part of a very pervasive failing in the mechanisms for regulating titles, and for dealing with perfectly well-motivated challenges to existing titles. There is more beyond titles, of course. But remember what Confucius said about names:

Zi-lu said, "... What will you consider the first thing to be done?"
The Master replied, "What is necessary is to rectify names."

Noetica 03:08, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

It gets even worse, not by leaving stuff out of the title, but by putting stuff into the title: Kayenta, Arizona — anglocentrism. But I guess since this is the English wikipedia, being anglocentric is OK. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 07:35, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Given that an article can have only one title, we are forced to choose only one possible name for a place (although redirects mitigate this as best we can). The standard criteria we use are a combination of WP:COMMONNAME and naming conventions. This being the English Misplaced Pages the English name will, in most cases, be the most common. While this does unfortunately introduce a bit of bias, it is unavoidable, and the common name does avoid conflicts about places with more than one official name - see for example City of Brussels which has two official names in French and one each in Flemmish and German; all of which have equal status according to Belgian law.

If you're talking about Kayenta vs Kayenta, Arizona; that is not Anglocentrism but the consensus decision by all editors (but presumably with a high degree of participation by US editors) to use the "comma convention" that reflects common usage in that country (presumably per WP:COMMON). In Britain we don't use that convention so we use a different one. Thryduulf (talk) 12:22, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

See, you don't even know what I mean. I mean "Kayenta, Navajo Nation". It is anglocentric to claim that Kayenta is in Arizona; it isn't. Arizona police don't have jurisdiction, Arizona laws are only partially applicable; the governing body answers to the Federal Government in Washington, D.C., not to Arizona. The only reason why it says AZ is because the place has a US ZIP code invented by Anglos, and Anglos will be deported to AZ if they commit crimes there. So yeah, Anglos will say that Kayenta is in Arizona. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 12:35, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

In response to the original post: this is why we have internal wikilinks in the article. So what if the Philadelphia Phillies article does not explicitly state that they are in the US. You can very easily click on Philadelphia, or Pennsylvania ... this is the nature of HTML markup! How absolutely boring it would be if every article explicitly mentioned the country in it (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 12:54, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

While I don't see why it would hurt to add the country to articles about the United States, let's look at all the ways in which Misplaced Pages isn't U.S.-centric as well. There's a problem with places, but word "American" is used in the lead of almost every article about people. Also, let's not forget that the MoS outright banned American-style punctuation, requiring British in all articles, even the ones on American subjects. Now that's just got to go.

As for Kayenta, if it's within Arizona's borders, then it's not unreasonable to say that it's in Arizona. What that article should do is, perhaps instead of "Kayenta, Arizona," say "Kayenta, part of the Navajo Nation located within the U.S. State of Arizona..." That way, it doesn't imply that Kayenta is a regular town in Arizona the same way Albuquerque is.Darkfrog24 (talk) 13:00, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

That's too long for a title, and not even correct either. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 13:04, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Civility

Hello,

I saw your remark on User talk:Off2riorob about civility, and wanted to say that this is a thoughtful, concise and persuasive argument for one of our essential five pillars. I may quote it to to others, though I may be accused of trying to curry favor with this encyclopedia's most prominent contributor. So be it. Cullen Let's discuss it 18:03, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Cullen328 is a mensch addressing either lords or commons.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 18:24, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Thank you, KW, I try. I've added the quote from Jimbo to the beginning of User talk:Cullen328. Cullen Let's discuss it 18:31, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Flattr

Hi, I'm directing this quiry to you as I can't find any one else.

Background

Flattr is a donation system where users give an amount of their choosing to Flattr. Then they click Flattr buttons on websites. If a user clicks on 100 of these in a mounth then each website will get a 100th of the money they gave to Flattr. One problem is that you can Flattr a twitter user even if they don't have a Flattr account so a bunch of this money goes unclaimed. Misplaced Pages is one such example. @Misplaced Pages has 161 people wanting to give it money. To claim this you would need a Flattr account and the login details for @Misplaced Pages. As I only discovered Flattr yesterday I don't know how much money this amounts to but every little bit helps. The link to the unclaimed donation is https://flattr.com/thing/425462. Hopefully you can organise to claim it. Thanks, Bardi1100 (talk) 21:57, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

I think the best thing will be for you to contact Zack at the Foundation, or email the donation team at donate@wikimedia.org. They're super busy with the fundraiser right now, but in the spring when things are calm for them again, and they are regrouping to plan for next year, I'm sure they can consider this, and also look into getting whatever money is already there!--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:13, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Notification of RfD

There is currently a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Redirects_for_discussion#Misplaced Pages:Run_to_Mommy you might be interested in. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 00:06, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Because sometimes the big pages take a while to load, here's the daily log it's on: Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2011 November 15. Cheers. lifebaka++ 14:28, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Verifiability and truth - humor

Relevant to 'verifiable, and true'--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:29, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Unfortunately that is way too close to the truth to be funny.. --Conti|✉ 14:37, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

More unfortunately, removing "not truth" from WP:V will not solve this. The good news is that WP:V already covers this in WP:CIRCULAR, so no change to the policy is needed for this situation! Fram (talk) 14:40, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Which makes it clear that "verifiability, not truth" is actually a lie. That isn't how we operate and never has been, because it's just silly and wrong. We want verifiability. And we want truth.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:37, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

• Now that we have a reliable comic-strip source, finally we can write the article "Citogenesis" to clarify the verifiability-not-truth concept in Misplaced Pages; I always thought the concept sounded "funny"! ;-] –Wikid77 (talk) 15:17, 16 November 2011 (UTC)