Talk:North Macedonia under the Ottoman Empire

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A fact from North Macedonia under the Ottoman Empire appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the Did you know column on 6 September 2010 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that Ottoman rule of Macedonia lasted for roughly 500 years?

A record of the entry may be seen at Misplaced Pages:Recent additions/2010/September.

Misplaced Pages

Map

The map accompanying the article is somewhat confusing. The borders are (almost) present-day borders, not borders at Ottoman times, and according to the byline, the hatched area forms an entity whereas the article says that there was no Macedonian entity, but three vilayets. Can someone clarify this? --Thathánka Íyotake (talk) 20:51, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Neutrality & other issues

Here are just some of the article's problems:

missing a great deal of surrounding history
section titles are non-neutral
characterizations
place names are presented without regard to Misplaced Pages naming policies
The role of Serbian kings is cut to fit the tone of the page. The fact that they are Serbs is misrepresented, or not shown at all.
Any Greek element is absent. Magic-wand-style vanished. This is certainly due to the page originally being written as a history of the former Yugoslav & now independent, Republic of Macedonia, in a historical period where that cannot be defined as that. Thus the major confusion!

Shadowmorph 06:55, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

I think the basics of the history are included; if you want to add on to it, then go ahead. If you think some of the section titles are non-neutral, then change them. Which place names are presented without regard to Misplaced Pages naming policies? If it's necessary to add detail regarding the kings, such as that they are Serbs, it can be done. I did originally create the page as 'Ottoman-era Republic of Macedonia' but it was suggested at DYK that I change it to this. Therefore, a Greek element is absent. Add a 'Greek element' if you want or the title could be changed so that the article will only discuss the territory of the Republic of Macedonia under Ottoman rule. But I don't see why it need be merged into Macedonia_(region)#History when that article devotes a paragraph or two to the subject. --Local hero 20:38, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

The article definitely needs to be overhauled. So far it isn't clear whether it is about the territory covered by the Republic of Macedonia in Ottoman times or about the wider region. Its content says mostly the former, its title and some other additions the latter. First we should agree on what the article intends to be and then we can see about (re)writing it accordingly. Constantine ✍ 08:33, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

I agree with you. There is a problem of how to understand the topic of this article. Macedonia is disambiguation. It is not clear if the topic of this article is:

1) Macedonia (region) under the Ottoman Empire or

2) Territory of the Republic of Macedonia in Ottoman times.

I think that the title of this article defines its subject, which I think is more close to Macedonia (region) in Ottoman times. The Territory of the Republic of Macedonia in Ottoman times is more narrow subject and can be explained within another separate article, if necessary. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 11:18, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Except, if we have the former, there is no need for the latter. The Republic of Macedonia comprises the northern portion of Macedonia, so on the one hand we'd have duplication and on the other, an anachronistic imposition of modern borders on a historical period. I don't think that the territory of the ROM can be distinguished in any meaningful way from the wider region during this time: whatever events, people or influences, political, economical, religious, etc were present in what today is the RoM were present in the wider region as well. In other words, the territory of the RoM was not a distinct geopolitical unit at the time. Constantine ✍ 12:17, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

I agree with you, but since I did not know the opinion of other users I wrote "if necessary". --Antidiskriminator (talk) 13:02, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Mixing Macedonia (region) with the Republic of Macedonia

The article is for the history of the region of Macedonia, but the templates are put in the context of the present Republic of Macedonia. The article should be either for the region, either for the country. Now it's all messed up. --StanProg (talk) 16:28, 3 November 2011 (UTC) My question here is in what context should be the article, so we can make the proper changes. Should it be in the context of the region of Macedonia, or in the context of the Republic of Macedonia? --StanProg (talk) 16:33, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

I originally created this article as "Ottoman-era Republic of Macedonia." A suggestion was later made at DYK that it be changed to include the entire region. So, I re-named it but I think it should be moved back unless someone wants to add other stuff that happened in the region outside today's Republic of Macedonia. --Local hero 16:39, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

The name of the article is not so confusing, as is it's content, although I think "Ottoman-era Republic of Macedonia" is OK. The problem here is that the other articles are in the context of the present day countries. Also I don't see Republic of Macedonia at this category Category:History of the Ottoman Empire by country, where it should be. As I see it, we have 2 variants: to rework the article to be in the context of the republic, or to create another article in the context of the republic (an to leave this to be about the region, without the republic related templates and content). Let me know what you think about this. --StanProg (talk) 16:56, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

I think the best solution is to have this article discuss what happened while today's Republic of Macedonia was part of the Ottoman Empire. Whatever happened at this time in Greek Macedonia and Pirin Macedonia should, if it is not already, be discussed on the Ottoman Greece and Ottoman Bulgaria articles, respectively. --Local hero 20:39, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

If the article name is going to change, can we please see WP:RM used in this case? It's a controversial enough issue that I don't think we should be moving it around without broader discussion. Good Ol’factory 23:44, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

I expressed support to move the page a couple weeks ago and no one responded except for StanProg, who seems to be okay with it. And Shadowmorph hasn't followed up with his initial concerns from February. So, I didn't see it as a controversial move. But if a broader discussion is needed, then okay. I've given my reasoning so I'd like to hear what's wrong with it from whoever disagrees. --Local hero 00:51, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Good Olfactory, the problem was the confusion of the article content and the categorization, where the term "Republic of Macedonia" is mixed with the "region of Macedonia". With Local hero we've managed to fix this confusion. An example: Now the cat "Macedonia under the Ottoman Empire‎" is obviously for the "Republic of Macedonia", on the other hand the cat "History of Macedonia" is for the region of Macedonia. I've fixed some of the categorization issues, but most probably there are more to be fixed. --StanProg (talk) 20:43, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Ask not if I was absent, but rather whether the issues I mentioned were resolved. Not really, I say. First let's summarize the situation: This is what we have at the main articles:

Macedonia (region)

This is what we should have on the ottoman era:

Ottoman Macedonia (Should be about the whole region, now wrongly redirects to this page)
- Republic of Macedonia under the Ottomans. (Covered in this page)
- Pirin Macedonia under the Ottomans. (Covered in Ottoman Bulgaria)
- Greek Macedonia under the Ottomans. (Covered in Ottoman Greece)

Furthermore in the article Macedonia (terminology)#Ottoman Macedonia it is mentioned:

Main article: Macedonia under the Ottoman Empire

The Ottomans did not keep Macedonia as an administrative unit: since 1864 parts of geographical Macedonia lay in three vilayets, which also comprised some non-Macedonian areas. Northern Macedonia was part of the Kosovo vilayet and then of Skopje; the Thessaloniki (south Macedonia), and the Monastir (Central Macedonia) vilayet were also created."

Yet Macedonia under the Ottoman Empire redirects here, even though it clearly was meant to be redirected to the region. Instead people who click there would be mislead to read this 1/3 of the history.

What we have here is clearly a wrong situation.

Here is a solution: This article should be named Ottoman Vardar Macedonia to substitute the long History of the Republic of Macedonia under the Ottoman Empire (which would be according to the naming conventions). The name Ottoman Vardar Macedonia is short, to the point, disambiguated and factually correct. It is based on the name the place in question was given just after Ottoman rule was removed: Vardar Banovina. According to Template:Yug-timeline this was on 1929. Prior to Ottoman rule the place had no other name other than Soutern Kingdom of Serbia or Northern Geographic Macedonia or Upper Macedonia.

Ottoman Macedonia should redirect to Demographic history of Macedonia#Ottoman_rule or be a disambiguation page leading to all histories.

Looking forward to hearing your opinions. Shadowmorph 08:10, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

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