Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Mark Kilby (talk | contribs) at 17:24, 31 March 2006 (I'm leaving this identify for the new one detailed...). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Please do not add commercial links (or links to your own private websites) to Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages is not a vehicle for advertising or a mere collection of external links. You are, however, encouraged to add content instead of links to the encyclopedia. See the welcome page to learn more. Thanks.

In spite of what you might think, that link was not commercial, nor personal, it was a mirror of a genuine NASA video - and definitely NOT spam. Why is that video any different to the other pictures that appear in the article?

Aha! A response from an actual person - let me explain. There's a number of factors here.

• Most importantly, your sole edits were to add a large number of links to the same domain into a number of pages - little to no content, just a bare link. This is generally something that sets people's spam radar blinking, and it's why I treated them as such; see how not to be a spammer for some good advice.
• On the matter of the actual links, they're "rich media" - video. We generally dislike rich media as links, since it's not very accessible, and if they must be linked to it's strongly encouraged to say "X is a video file", "X requires Java", whatever. These were mostly just simple links, with no indication of content or anything else. We also discourage having external links "dropped into" the text, as opposed to in the external links section at the bottom. You mention the pictures that already appear - these appear clearly as pictures, separated from the text, not as undescribed links inside the text to an image.

I hope the first point explains my reaction, and the second explains how to go about including them more effectively... Shimgray | talk | 22:17, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Hello Shimgray.

Yes I am an actual person (but then again so are most spammers).

My name is Mark, I live in the UK, and I am not a spammer - so you can holster that weapon of yours Sir if you please and we can talk about any objections man to man.  :-)

The domain is not a personal website but a Java video streaming server holding videos of mine (and anyone else that is registered to use that service). At the moment it contains footage from NASA. This footage is mirrored verbatim, except to conform to NASA's terms for using their media. But it also contains (a growing library of) unique footage shot by myself. None of my actions have any commercial interest whatsoever.

Why mirror footage already available on NASA's web servers? In short because traditional methods of distributing video in files in various formats requiring installed players is extremely unreliable. Java video is the opposite of unreliable and practically ubiquitous. It has none of the problems of installed video players, different file formats, and missing codecs. If you cannot view a Java video you are in a minority.

As it happens the Java video service I use is a one stop shop, including hosting and a sophisticated Java based online editing facility; which is nice. So I can do all my 'internet video stuff' on the internet in one place, and all from within a browser window.

I would contest your view regarding the accessibility of Java, and Java video in particular. In contrast to traditional methods of 'putting' video on the internet, video delivered using Java is highly accessible (when done using the right technology). Over 90% of the world's internet users have Java installed which means they can also view video delivering using Java.

My personal view on rich media (for what it is worth) is there should be no distinction. In all other walks of life this is the case and I do not see why the net should be any different. Surely a piece of knowledge is best expressed in ways that best convey understanding. Though I concede that at present, from a practical perspective, the incumbent technologies on the ground unfortunately fall short of delivering on this ideal as they are often unreliable.

Content is content whether it be moving pictures, audio, text or static pictures. The fact that video appears to be treated here more as the poor relation is understandable. In my experience products like Real do more to hinder than to help the case for video. IMHO Java does offer the world a bridge to a better world - especially where internet video is concerned (I hope at least you are able to see for yourself how easy and reliable my videos are to watch).

But perhaps this is a separate debate.

I will make clear the nature of the video links I insert as you describe, along the lines of.

"X is a video stream requiring Java"

As to placement of video, a blanket policy of 'stick it in external links' is unreasonable. Sorting content by 'type' would make it extremely awkward for readers to find relevant content - one of this websites strengths is its ability focus|distill information to one location so it is convenient for readers to find is it not?

Example:

The 'Concorde' article is a very specific article about Concorde. My video is quite a general video about Concorde. Therefore it is reasonable to place this video in an video|external links section.

In contrast to this, the 'Fabrication (metal)' is a very general article in nature, covering many topics. My video concerns a very specific topic Cutting and Burning, which itself is the subject of a single paragraph. It is in this case obstructive, for the reader, to have the video content unhinged from the text content. Therefore the most appropriate place for a link to the cutting and burning video is next to the text in the body of the article.

I do concede that I have not consistently adhered to my own reasoning above however in the all contributions I have made :-(

For instance the Skylab 2 video could quite adequately have been placed in a video|external links section without prejudicing a readers expectation of finding it there. So I will make it my job to remedy this.

Regards, Mark.

PS

I had hoped to present my videos as a picture of the first frame that, when clicked, would open a window and start playing the video but this is not something I see an obvious solution to, so must continue to use simple text-based links.

I appreciate that when dealing with spammers then the best policy is usually to shoot first and ask questions later. But now you know who I am it is my hope that, worst case, you will rename my links if you disagree with the descriptive, or if you disagree with the placement then relegate them to a 'video|external links' section.

My visits to Misplaced Pages are getting more frequent so I hope I can respond to issues quickly.

I appreciate you taking the time to impart some of your experience.

If you watch some of the videos they are not simply links. Some of the videos themselves contain subtitles.

From 217.41.19.230 (but from a different IP!)

Firstly, registering an account would help communication quite a bit...

With regards to the placement of links, the metal fabrication is an interesting case. There, it does make sense to have the link with the specific topic... but even then it should still be seperate, listed at the end of the section rather than "embedded" in the text; otherwise, keep them in external links. In general, what you're doing now looks fine to me. Shimgray | talk | 20:54, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sold on the idea of placing video separate to text content as a matter of course, but if my current approach is going to attract less flak then I will have more time to do other things.

The only argument for treating moving images different to static images appears to be that the technology for video is clumsy. Maybe views would change if the reliability of Java video was more widely known.

Perhaps I should take my thoughts over to wherever good practice is discussed on Misplaced Pages and vent them there. There are better and cleaner ways of including Java video on web pages but I'm not sure how to do them on Misplaced Pages. E.g. a way of showing the first frame of a video as a static image, with a click taking the reader to view the video. Or better still embedding the video stream into the page behind a static picture.

Maybe this talk is getting ahead of Misplaced Pages a little.

Anyone wishing to correspond further can now talk to the real me over here!

--mk 17:24, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

This is the discussion page for an IP user, identified by the user's IP address. Many IP addresses change periodically, and are often shared by several users. If you are an IP user, you may create an account or log in to avoid future confusion with other IP users. Registering also hides your IP address. (WHOIS  Geolocate  Proxy Checker Current blocks XTools Global contributions) (RIRs: Africa America Asia-Pacific Europe Latin America/Caribbean)