Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Mintguy (talk | contribs) at 11:24, 14 July 2004. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

"PIRA", pronounced "pye-ra" is an abbreviation used mostly by the British Army in Ulster. In reality it is not even used as an abbreviation but "pye-ra" is British Army-talk for the Provisionals.

Jimmerc

When Jimmerc says that the PIRA is an abbreviation used mostly by the British in Ulster' he should get his facts right. The Provisional IRA is called the PIRA by the

• Irish government in documents;
• by nationalist leaders north and south;
• by the Northern-Irish unionists;
• by the British government;
• by much of the media

In other words, Jimmerc is speaking pure cobblers. And who, by the way, are the 'British in Ulster'? The protestant community? The British government? Or just anyone who doesn't agree with the PIRA and Sinn Féin? And by the way, Ulster is a geographic unit. It is not a state. The state's name is Northern Ireland. The state in which Sinn Féin sits in government (or will do again when the PIRA FINALLY gets around to fully decomissioning, which under the Belfast Agreement it is supposed to have FINISHED 2 years ago.

As to the 'When has the IRA ever targeted civilians, it was always legitimate targets ( there have been SOME exceptions, though)' line, I presume that someone is being ironic or sarcastic there. Or does someone actually think that the children murdered in Warrington, the woman watching a Remembrance Day wreath-laying in Enniskillen, the people sitting in a restaurant who were burned to death by IRA bombs, the young community policeman having a pint in a gay pub, an elderly former Speaker of the Northern Ireland parliament and his son (both butchered) and scores of members of Án Garda Siochána like Frank Hand and Gerry McCabe were legitimate targets? Damn all people in Ireland think that. In fact most people have no time for the PIRA and it makes their skin crawl that they (and their murdering twins in the UDA/UFF etc) are out of prison. But we are stomaching it because it is part of the Belfast Agreement and we all live in hope that they have learned their lesson. Which is why, at its recent 'highpoint' in the Republic of Ireland's general election, managed to win a massive FIVE seats out of 166. Wooopee! Some breakthrough. Only seventy-eight seats to go and you might actually form a government, lads! And at the rate of gaining five seats an election, that's 14 elections. Yeah, Sinn Féin finally winning government in the Republic of Ireland in or around 2070.

In other words, don't kid yourself that the PIRA ran a 'legitimate war', had 'legitimate' that the PIRA 'spoke' for the 'oppressed people of Ireland' or that Sinn Féin 'represents' Ireland. Padraig Pearse never advocated murdering children, women honouring war dead, members of Ireland's police-force, a gay policeman having a pint, or burning people to death in restaurants. And he would be ashamed that some people claim his authority for brutally slaughtering people they way the PIRA did for years. (And the way dumb americans were foolish enough to give these guys money and support.)

But at least Sinn Féin today has real leaders of substance who are trying to solve, not create, divisions, people like Adams, McGuinness and Alex Maskey, the deeply impressive Lord Mayor of Belfast.

JTD 03:39 Dec 19, 2002 (UTC) (A REAL republican whose grand-uncle fought for the REAL republic in the REAL Irish War of Independence.)

Removed 'Mainland Great Britain'. As Great Britain is an island, it does not have a mainland, just . . . em . . . Great Britain. What people using this geographically ludicrous term is the bit of the United Kingdom that isn't Northern Ireland. And that is . . . well. . . Great Britain! The actual full name of the UK is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland isn't part of Great Britain, it is part of the UK., which is Northern Ireland + Great Britain. So there isn't a 'mainland Great Britain'. (If they said the mainland of the United Kingdom, that would mean Great Britain.) But there ain't no 'mainland Great Britain'. (Yes I know some people use the term, but Wiki as an encyclopedia has to use the correct term, not replicate their mistake!) JTD 03:52 Feb 9, 2003 (UTC)

Point of fact "Mainland Great Britain" is correct in a different context, if refering to it as distinct from any of the smaller islands that are politically part of Great Britain and do not have any autonomomy. Examples are the numerous Scottish Islands, Angelsey, The Isle of Wight and Scilly Isles, where the inhabitants refer to the island of Great Britain as the mainland Dainamo March 22, 2004

I reverted the last three edits because they were pitched rather non-neutrally. We're not here to present one side's view or the other's, but it seemed clear to me that the entries were presenting only one side, that of the PIRA or their supporters, and not a neutral one. See NPOV for more information. It's important that we write dispassionately about subjects, and not give them the benefit of the doubt, only present facts that support them, or extend facts like when and where a bomb went off and that the PIRA claimed it went off early ... all the way to "instead exploded" implying there is no doubt of veracity. Likewise, we don't know the "the British" framed them (and are perhaps not even sure they were framed, depending on your POV). I can't claim to be perfect at it writing dispassionately, but I have to call this one non-NPOV. ;-) Daniel Quinlan 11:58, Dec 14, 2003 (UTC)

The entry has a listing of "notable events" in the history of the PIRA. All of them are negative, starting with "1972...bombs killed" to "1996...bomb...injured". I added one positive event, the fact that the people of Fermanagh-South Tyrone elected a prisoner who was openly in the PIRA their MP while he was on hunger strike for POW recognition. The enemies of the PIRA always claim that they do not have the support of the community, and this contradicted that, it pretty much takes the line of the British establishment and turns it on it's head. I see that this was removed. Sorry, but it was definitely a notable event in the history of the PIRA - the fact that one of it's members was elected MP. I put it back in.

I see some of my wording has been changed for a more NPOV. Some of these changes are fine. However, I described the person who was attempting an attack on a UDA office over a fish and chip shop as a volunteer, and this was changed to bomber. This does not seem neutral to me, it is like not calling British soldiers soldiers or RUC policemen policemen and instead calling them all "shooters" if they shoot a gun. If you feel something I said regarding Bobby Sands election is NPOV, you can edit it, but trying to throw the event down the memory hole is not NPOV.

Plus, the whole scope of events seems tilted. The original Shankill Road bombing fails to note that there was a UDA office over the fish-and-chip shop and that the volunteer was killed along with the others when the bomb went off prematurely. This omission makes it seem like the PIRA planted a time-bomb in a fish-and-chip shop in order to kill a bunch of civilians. -- Lancemurdoch 21:03, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Firstly, volunteer is blatently POV and terminology exclusively used by the PIRA and its defenders. It is loaded terminology and cannot be used here. The person in question went to plant a bomb. That makes him a bomber. It is elementary english.

Secondly, your account of the election of Sands is a good spin but selective in its facts. That constituency had a history of electing independent nationalists. The unionist vote was split. The SDLP controversially did not put up a candidate. Sands' election, like that of Eoin Carron later, was not the great PIRA electoral triumph you suggest but a product of electoral polarisation produced by Thatcher's handline stance on the hunger strikes, the complex nature of Fermanagh and South Tyrone electoral politics and also the belief in many quarters that voting for a hunger striker might make Thatcher moderate her policy stance and so save lives. To claim it as an electoral mandate for the PIRA is fact-twisting spin worthy of Alaistair Campbell.

Thirdly, you make it sound that the PIRA was only out to kill UDA men and did not target non-combatents. Killing of anyone was generally deemed by Irish people to be wrong, even if they were in the UDA. And to suggest that the PIRA did not target non-combatents is a blatent lie. It murdered men, women and children, blew people's heads off in the street, burnt to death people in restaurants, murdered Jean McConville and buried her body on a beach and then lied about it as they lied about so much else, robbed banks, kidnapped supermarket tycoons, blew up diplomats, threatened to kidnap government ministers, etc. If the Shankill Road bombing was not aimed at innocent men, women and children it was unusual for an organisation that killed anyone anywhere to suit their own ends. FearÉIREANN 23:09, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

--

PIRA operations: guerrilla campaign or terrorism? Here's what dictionary.com has to say about each:

guerrilla: A member of an irregular, usually indigenous military or paramilitary unit operating in small bands in occupied territory to harass and undermine the enemy, as by surprise raids.

terrorism: The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

Now I think you could say both definitions apply to PIRA, but in my personal opinion "terrorist" seems much more descriptive of PIRA than "guerrilla", particularly as their targets were so often civilians.

Regardless of what dictionary.com may say the correct definition of terrorism is a controversial subject. It is also a matter of dispute as to whether or not the Provo's are terrorists, so using the word terrorist in this context is not NPOV. Iota 01:18, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Does that mean that we can't refer to Al Qaida as a terrorist group?

To quote our Duffy from above " It murdered men, women and children, blew people's heads off in the street, burnt to death people in restaurants, murdered Jean McConville and buried her body on a beach and then lied about it as they lied about so much else, robbed banks, kidnapped supermarket tycoons, blew up diplomats, threatened to kidnap government ministers, etc." This is terrosism whatever you defintion. This is not a question of NPOV Mintguy (T) 11:24, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)