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In order to remain listed at Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/User conduct, at least two people need to show that they tried to resolve a dispute with this user and have failed. This must involve the same dispute with a single user, not different disputes or multiple users. The persons complaining must provide evidence of their efforts, and each of them must certify it by signing this page with ~~~~. If this does not happen within 48 hours of the creation of this dispute page (which was: 21:52, 25 January 2012 (UTC)), the page will be deleted. The current date and time is: 20:13, 29 December 2024 (UTC).

Users should not edit other people's summaries or views, except to endorse them. All signed comments other than your own view or an endorsement should be directed to this page's discussion page.

Statement of the dispute

In April 2010, I initiated Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Ash. It was delisted due to inactivity, with the comment that the user had "stopped editing Misplaced Pages". In fact, the person behind User:Ash had created a new account and continued to edit as User:Fæ, a situation of which I only recently became aware. Following this ANI discussion about inactive RFC/Us, I have decided to re-open the RFC/U about this user. To minimize confusion, I am starting a new RFC/U page with some more recent examples of the same issues dealt with in the original RFC/U, but this is simply a continuation of an already certified RFC/U and I may choose to leave out information already provided in the earlier request. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 00:38, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Desired outcome

From April 2010: "The desired outcome of this RFC/U is a voluntary agreement by Ash to cease editing BLPs (biographies of living people), which require "particular care" in the sourcing and verification of facts as per WP:BLP. Further investigation into the extent of the misuse of citations may also be warranted."

In addition to the above, I would like to ask that Fæ resign their adminship and, if they desire, go through a new RfA. Their RfA was tainted by what I view as deliberately misleading comments about past accounts. I am certain they would not have been given admin rights if their past account name(s) were known.

Description

From April 2010:

In a recent ANI thread (Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive604#Fraudulent referencing), Ash's use of a particular gay porn website as a reference was called into question. In the course of that ANI discussion, I requested that Ash respond to a BLPN discussion from December 2009 in which I had explicitly identified misuse of sources. After multiple requests (, , , , , & ), Ash did so, but denied any wrongdoing.

Believing that the subject matter (gay pornography performers) and sources (including gay pornography sites) were discouraging other editors from reviewing the evidence, I went through the articles recently created by Ash to find two that were not related to gay pornography (Pleasuredrome & Chariots Shoreditch). These articles had been edited almost exclusively by Ash, so that Ash was only sourcing their own additions. I found several instances of citations being added to support facts that were not present in the sources. I provided diffs and links to the original sources in a new section of the aforementioned AfD discussion. Despite the agreement of four other editors expressing concern about the citations (, , , & ), Ash continued to deny any wrongdoing or take responsibility for their actions. It is not clear to me why this wasn't swiftly dealt with at ANI.

More recent examples of the same type of sourcing are offered below to show that the problem still exists (and presumably has continued to exist throughout the time this user has edited as Fæ).

Evidence of disputed behavior

In November 2011, User:Agw65 created AG Weinberger, which was apparently an autobiography. It was deleted as a copyright violation. For unknown reasons, Fæ recreated the article, complete with "citation needed" tags on unsourced personal information. The sole reference in this BLP is attached to the sentence "Standard Weinberger 1997, this album earned the recognition of the Romanian Composers’ Union, which has never formally recognized the Blues genre, awarding it “Best Jazz Album of the Year” in 1997". The reference contains no such information and in fact is a very short Billboard capsule summary of albums from Romania. Remember that Fæ was already an admin at this point.

In a piece of sourcing remarkably similar to those in the original RFC/U, Fæ sourced the statement "The beach is considered friendly for naturists and gay tourists" in Voidokilia beach to a guide in the back of a gay tourist advertising magazine. The complete text of that section is "Situated after Pylos and a a gulf with a big lagoon of murky water and is suitable for nudists" (in both English and Greek). Fæ added an image to the article, with the caption "Naturism on the south end of the beach". It should be noted that this image File:Voidokilia naturists.jpg is Fæ's own work and upload. It should likely also be noted that a map created by Fæ and added to the article by Fæ was deleted on Commons as plagarism. None of these things are the types of actions that we should expect from admins or experienced editors.

Applicable policies and guidelines

  1. Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons
  2. Misplaced Pages:Verifiability
  3. Misplaced Pages:Identifying reliable sources


Users certifying the basis for this dispute

From April 2010:


  1. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 15:50, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
  2. Jack Merridew 17:38, 5 April 2010 (UTC) — I tried to fix List of male performers in gay porn films and engaged with Ash and others on the list's talk page, circa December. I advocated the removal of redlinks from the list, not using unreliable sources (imdb, specifically), and disentangled several non-porn BLPs from this list (Ben Andrews vs. Ben Andrews (pornographic actor)). Ash seems intent on undoing much of this, specifically creating a huge number of improperly sourced BLPs to flesh-out that list. My impression is that his focus is on inclusion of non-notable persons wo/regard to BLP and reliable sourcing concerns.

From January 2012:

  1. Aaron Brenneman (talk) 00:29, 27 January 2012 (UTC) - I'll interpret "this dispute" to be BLP sourcing, and add further justification shortly.
    Oops. "tried to resolve a dispute with this user and have failed," emphasis mine. Please forgive me making this ugly situation worse by not reading the instructions. I'll add some further text below soon. - Aaron Brenneman (talk) 03:53, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
  2. Nobody Ent If the editor is unwilling to state they are not the previous editor ,, the RFC/U should proceed. Fae's first edit 28 March . Start of RFCU 5 April . Ash's last edit 12 April . This is a sock, not a cleanstart. Ash's RFA statement is untruthful. Nobody Ent 00:53, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Other users who endorse this summary

  1. St John Chrysostom /my bias I'm completely uninvolved in this or the last, and stumbled across it on the ANI. It appears persistent problems with sourcing do indeed exist, as described above. On the evidence available to me, I hereby concur. 13:03, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Response

This section is reserved for the use of the user whose conduct is disputed. Users writing other sections ("Statement of the dispute" and "Outside Views") should not edit the "Response" section, and the person writing this section should not write a view below. Anyone is welcome to endorse this or any other view, but no one except the editor(s) named in the dispute may change the summary here.


{Add your summary here. You must use the endorsement section below to sign it.}


Users who endorse this summary:

Views

This section is for statements or opinions written by users not directly involved with this dispute, but who would like to add a view of the dispute. Users should not edit other people's summaries or views, except to endorse them. All signed comments other than your own view or an endorsement should be directed to this page's discussion page. Users editing other sections ("Statement of the dispute" or "Response") should not normally edit this section, except to endorse another person's view.

Outside view by Themfromspace

Ash quit under a cloud, with an active user RFC containing serious allegations about reliable sources and BLPs. If Fae really is Ash, ArbCom erred greatly in letting him stand for adminship without disclosing his past account to the community. With full transparency, its very likely the RfA wouldn't have passed.

Users who endorse this summary:

  1. ThemFromSpace 20:39, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
  2. MBisanz 21:44, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
  3. I don't like obfuscation about previous accounts at all. There's no reason for it unless there's something to hide. Deor (talk) 23:58, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
  4. RafikiSykes (talk) 00:53, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
  5. With full disclosure this user would not have passed a WP:RFA at that time. Youreallycan 01:01, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
  6. As far as imputing that if the two are one person, that an RfA might not have succeeded, and that a new RfA would "cure" such a defect in the prior one Collect (talk) 01:37, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
  7. SarekOfVulcan (talk) 02:08, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
  8. I agree, this was an ArbCom error, and does not appear to have been the first of its kind. It's also disheartening given how much pro-BLP posturing takes place during the ArbCom elections. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 03:31, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
  9. Nformation 03:36, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
  10. It definitely seems that a new RFA is needed. If the community supports Fae as an administrator, then an RFA would essentially be a formality, so there should be little opposition from him in having another one. Silverseren 06:55, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
  11. Jenks24 (talk) 07:47, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
  12. Bulwersator (talk) 10:06, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
  13. Salvio 11:03, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
  14. I have noted before that this user would never have seen the light of adminship if this past identity was known at the time, Fae's 1st RfA is fraudulent. Tarc (talk) 13:49, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
  15. !voters were denied information that could've been useful in formulating a complete, informed decision. Imagine a world where politicians could censor past criminal records and embarrassing scandals. That isn't the sort of world we should be embracing. Information wants to be free; that's what Misplaced Pages is here for. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 14:09, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
  16. It would be useful to find more recent issues on this project. When I wrote to the Joint Committee on Privacy and Injunctions about problems with Fae's evidence to them which he gave in his capacity as a trustee of WMUK, I was able to link a continuous pattern in his cavalier attitude towards people's privacy in BLPs when using the old accounts on Misplaced Pages and his Fae account on Commons. There is also a continuing pattern of an overly flexible attitude towards truth as evidenced by the incompleteness in what he told the committee, his misleading replies and evasion of awkward subjects during his Commons RFA, his misapplication of "WP:CLEANSTART during that RFA where Commonists would not know how he was distorting the poilicy, his evasion of questions currently on Misplaced Pages, and the general problems with the old accounts. --Peter cohen (talk) 17:09, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
  17. VolunteerMarek 19:44, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
  18. I seldom get involved in RFA's. I did run once (3 years ago) and was vetoed due to my past here. My past is an open book. Hiding one's past should automatically disqualify someone who's running for admin. To put it another way, if he is hiding his past, and if I don't qualify to be an admin, neither does he. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 22:06, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
  19. This view and Hobit's are not mutually exclusive. I endorse both. I don't think that John Vandenberg was misleading the voters in the RfA; however, I think he erred by giving Fae an ArbCom stamp of approval. A Stop at Willoughby (talk) 06:28, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
  20. Enough is well and truly enough. Let's not have RfAs (and arbitration committee candidacies ...) without full disclosure of prior accounts. Period. --JN466 07:32, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
  21. It was a very poor decision by Arbcom to not reveal his past account. Every clean-start RfA candidate will now be treated with suspicion, even if their previous account was uncontroversial. It was also a poor decision to let someone who is alleged to be adding false sources to BLP make a clean start, as this person's edits require constant scrutiny. It like letting a serial plagiarist make a clean start. Epbr123 (talk) 10:02, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
  22. Concur. Let him stand for a new RfA. If it is the will of the consensus, it shall again pass, and a cloud of suspicion will be lifted. If not, a problem will have been rectified. St John Chrysostom /my bias 13:07, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
  23. From now on I will be blanket opposing clean start RfAs except if the person has interacted with me enough that I know them well. --Guerillero | My Talk 19:47, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
    Again, there are valid reasons for a clean start that should not invoke a blanket oppose. But I do find it interesting that you supported the RfA with "no reservations" despite people warning that this might happen.---Balloonman 06:39, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
  24. Secret 20:28, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
  25. That's shocking. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 20:34, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
  26. Agreed. An RfC with full disclosure would have been very unlikely to succeed, I think. bobrayner (talk) 20:42, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
  27. Agree with Chrysostom and tempted to take the same position as Guerillero. AlexiusHoratius 20:46, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
    I still endorse the primary comment here, but after thinking about it for a bit I'm not willing to join the crowd calling for a new RfA yet. AlexiusHoratius 01:30, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
  28. —GFOLEY FOUR!— 22:07, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
  29. Agree. Ban him for sock. BigDwiki (talk) 23:04, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
    Ban as a sock? This was a valid clean start account and ArbCom knew about it from almost the beginning. Cleanstart is completely different from sockpuppetry. It was just terribly handled and misleading by several parties. Secret 01:18, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
    I was unaware that "clean start" used accounts set up before the RFC/U as a valid clean start. And IIRC, once a "clean start" is made, it is forbidden to use the old account, no? you can simply discontinue the old account(s) and create a new one implies that the old account is discontinued before a new one is created, right? Discontinuing the old account means it will not be used again means there should be zero edits on the old account after the new one is editing, right? Neither rule appears to have been followed, which makes me wonder just what did happen. Cheers. Collect (talk) 01:32, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
    Look at question 13 in the RfA. Fae acknowledged the overlap over a year ago during the RfA, as such, this fact was addressed prior to promotion.---Balloonman 06:28, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
  30. A new RfA needs to occur in which Fae openly discusses his old account and forthrightly answers questions about his editing in the BLP area. Instead of trying to cover it up, be honest and transparent. Cla68 (talk) 23:33, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
  31. Axl ¤ 00:50, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
  32. Administrators and public voices of Misplaced Pages must have the trust of the community to be effective. Cullen Let's discuss it 05:14, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
  33. Not disclosing the past identity of the user (even with a cleanstart) during RFA can lead into problems; this is a good example for that. Salih (talk) 06:06, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
    There are legitimate reasons to have a clean start and to respect the privacy of said clean start... harrassment, revelation of one's real life identity, etc. In those cases, a clean start is a clean start. This case involved secrecy surrounding an RfCU and issues that were not revealed to the public. But the RfA community strongly supported its passage despite the lack of knowledge of the specifics. The time to have spoken up on this lack of transparency was a year ago when he ran.---Balloonman 06:23, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
    True, I should have been more explicit in his RfA. Salih (talk) 06:30, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
  34. Wow. --Bryce (talk | contribs) 07:12, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
  35. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 17:28, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
  36. Well, duh... we were told that a year ago during the RfA...Fae did not want to reveal his identity because he feared that it would torpedo his RfA. Fae knew a year ago that it would have gone a different way if the facts were known. That being said, culpability belongs equally on those who supported the RfA knowing that they might have opposed had they known. Fae was up front with that fact... thus this is not justification for him to step down or demand reconfirmation. (See any one of my posts during the rfa!)---Balloonman 02:45, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
  37. Agreed. WJBscribe (talk) 23:24, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
  38. Yes. That sounds accurate. Begoon  02:55, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
  39. Agree with this. Kcowolf (talk) 04:22, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
  40. Agree. From ] (which the user displays on his user page): "These administrators state they are willing to stand for "re-confirmation" of adminship if a sufficient number of editors in good standing request it". There are enough requests (and implications of requests) above to infer that that criteria has been met. GFHandel ♬  04:04, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Outside view by Russavia

This request is simply an extension of harrassment by some other vile characters on Wikipediareview. Fae has undergone some unadulterated harrasment by various users on WR, and a lot of it is of the homophobic variety. DC, IMO, is very close to going over this line of harrassment, if they haven't already.

Editors should know that DC posted Fae's home address and phone number on WR, on a thread which was discussing Fae in a manner which can only be construed by any reasonable person as harrassment, so their claim here that they are only interested in Fae's Misplaced Pages activities is absolute and clear BS. (Whilst the posts in question by DC on WR have conveniently been deleted, this does not mean that a webcitation copy wasn't conversely conveniently made before these posts were deleted by WR, so if DC is going to deny ever having done this, they might want to think very carefully before responding to this).

In relation to:

In a piece of sourcing remarkably similar to those in the original RFC/U, Fæ sourced the statement "The beach is considered friendly for naturists and gay tourists" in Voidokilia beach to a guide in the back of a gay tourist advertising magazine. The complete text of that section is "Situated after Pylos and a a gulf with a big lagoon of murky water and is suitable for nudists" (in both English and Greek)

His sourcing in this instance is pretty much OK, it is in a section of the magazine which is giving details of gay-friendly resorts, hotels, and beaches in Greece. There are obviously doubts as to whether this is legitimate or part of homophobic harrassment directed towards Fae. It is obvious it is, because they made a point of including a photo which Fae had taken at this beach in their statement; obviously hoping to play in homophobic feelings which some editors may hold. It is absolutely atrocious and disgusting behaviour to be engaging in.

As to anything on Commons, DC should not be importing disputes from Commons to enwp. If there are issues on Commons, Commons is the correct place to raise them; rather than using it as cannon fodder on enwp.

Users who endorse this summary:

  1. Y u no be Russavia 00:06, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
  2. --В и к и T 00:12, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
  3. DC's style is to say no more than would break the shield of plausible deniability. However, the general environment on WR is, whenever the subject arises, obviously homophobic. The LGBT wikiproject and LGBT pictures on commons are constant grievances; BLP crusades disproportionately serve to minimize the visibility of gay people and to aggrandize antigay politicians; and Fæ is not the first prominent LGBT editor that DC has targeted. This is shameless dog-whistle politics: where overt gay-bashing is not tolerated on Misplaced Pages, sustained harassment and outing campaigns against prominent gay editors are. Who knows? Maybe DC is just out to save the encyclopedia, and it just so happens that the worst editors are gay. We can't read minds. But the effect of his actions is that many gay editors, myself included, feel intimidated and unwelcome on Misplaced Pages. Shrigley (talk) 03:09, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
  4. This is nothing more than cyber poofter bashing. --MtD (talk) 16:04, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
  5. I see nothing spectacularly wrong with the sourcing for that beach, or the inclusion of the photo. --JN466 07:24, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
  6. Johnbod (talk) 19:53, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
  7. Sam Blacketer (talk) 22:25, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
  8. I have not verified everything in this statement, but I verified enough to confirm that Fæ is being harassed for supporting LGBT issues. Blue Rasberry (talk) 23:03, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
  9. Bidgee (talk) 00:51, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
  10. I agree. Bearian (talk) 02:28, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
  11. Modernist (talk) 04:22, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
  12. Reading the RFA and this case closer, I agree DC had some kind of agenda in doing that and should be held accountable for his actions. There was better alternatives to this case, such as contacting ArbCom. While I still think Fae should have exposed the account name in the first place and should resign quietly, the reasons behind the RFC is unacceptable and it's bordering on harassment. Secret 05:38, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
  13. I feel this whole process is distasteful. It is only my high regard for Fae that makes me want to interest myself in this poor advert for our own process which is being exploited by conspiracy hunters. Victuallers (talk) 10:26, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
  14. I haven't verified the WR part, but it doesn't seem to be in dispute ϢereSpielChequers 14:35, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
  15. per User:Secret -- œ 15:06, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
  16. I don't go on WR, and won't comment about that, but I can see nothing wrong with 'the' reference and pic. It's not a reference for establishing notability, and it is a reference to an established publication. (Looks like one, anyway. Not my scene - I'd be up at the cave and the castle rather than sitting on a beach...) Peridon (talk) 17:32, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
  17. Agree with Victuallers. An RFC about Fæ should be based on Fæ's actions as an editor not Ash's (they may be the same person, but after a clean start they are different editors in my book), and I have seen nothing worthy of an RFC in Fæ's conduct. BabelStone (talk) 01:05, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
  18. Endorse summary with additional concurrence in BabelStone's comment above. My76Strat (talk) 03:08, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
  19. Marek.69 07:01, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
  20. The stated context for this RfC is disingenuous, the primary motivation is harassment. Exok (talk) 21:31, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
  21. causa sui (talk) 21:54, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
  22. I hate that I'm signing on to this view, but I think I must. The focus on Fæ and his past incarnations does in fact feel a little homophobic. AniMate 09:40, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
  23. I haven't tracked down much of the anti-gay harassment, I think because some of the WR threads have been deleted. But I'm reasonably persuaded that harassment is the beginning of the motive here. The anti-gay tone of WR as opposed to Misplaced Pages should tell us that WR is not a representative sample of Misplaced Pages, but rather remains an outside organization with goals that are different from ours. However, I am not convinced that gay-bashing is the ultimate motive here -- rather, as with the Cirt case, I feel that a small group of deletionists is trying to take out an admin they see as opposed to their goals, or perhaps, simply to demonstrate their power and intimidate others. I think that the other admins had better stand up against these people, or eventually they too will have their chance to be voted off the island, and trumped-up allegations against their character plastered all over the internet. Misplaced Pages is a fundamentally communist cause, which can work, but only with the utmost respect for the rights of the individual participant; otherwise it degenerates into Leninist purges as cynical people seek control over valuable common assets. Wnt (talk) 18:17, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Quasi-certifing view by Brenneman

Caveat1: I am almost totally inactive on Misplaced Pages at this time
Caveat2: The below is somewhat stale, and I have seen if the behaviour is ongoing.

My first exposure to User:Fæ was via a post to Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents (ANI). While the post extensive, it did not request administrative action. I said as much on ANI here and here, all prior to looking into the claims. I posted on Fæ's talk here.

The response caused me enough concern that I reminded Fæ at that time that administrators must respond well to criticism, that they were a very new administrator, and that "civility" (in it's wildly distorted WP form) is a frquent cause for failed requests for adminship.

Karrine Steffans was mentioned as a locus of dispute, so I went to look at that article and its talk page. Talk:Karrine Steffans/Archive 2 is where my involvement there begins. At the top of that page, User:Malik Shabazz expresses several clear concerns about sourcing, and Fæ's responses indicate to me that their understanding of reliable sourcing is weak. Malik suggests a request for comment as the next step, but this does not appear to have been done. Further down in that incredible wall of text, Fæ uses YouTube as a source for material. This material (the "Superdeep" nickname) is material that the subject of the article clearly finds distressing, and one of the YouTube sources proposed by Fæ has her terminating a radio interview apparently in tears over harrassment about the name. This is clearly material that is covered by Biographies of Living Persons (BLP).

While referring again to Caveat2 above, Fæ's conduct throughout this was unacceptable with respect to BLP and well below what we expect from administrators. I was concerned enough to directly contact a sitting arbitrator about it.

However I maintained at the time that (given a brief review of Fæ's editting history) this seemed an isolated incident. Having made a second (cursory) review of their contributions, I still maintain that view. While it seems clear to me that Fæ would not pass a request for adminsip at this time, I'm not comfortable with this RfC being a test case for either community Misplaced Pages:Requests for de-adminship or for Misplaced Pages:Binding RFCs.

  1. Aaron Brenneman (talk) 01:43, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
  2. I find the discussion in Talk:Karrine_Steffans/Archive_2 highly concerning. The adult film company press releases and gossip columns Fæ suggested as sources for a contentious BLP matter are way beyond the pale. --JN466 07:27, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
  3. Concur as per Jayen466 above. St John Chrysostom /my bias 15:02, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
  4. Aaron alerted me to the Karrine Steffans discussion after the event. I looked at it,warned Fae publicly. Fae removed that warning. If there hasnt been a re-occurance by user:Fae, then I think the prior dispute resolution method was successful. John Vandenberg 20:51, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
    In stuffing up and certifying this, I was attempting to say the same thing: "I think the prior dispute resolution method was successful." - Aaron Brenneman (talk) 04:10, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Outside view by Hobit

It was clear during the RfA what exactly was happening. We knew there was an old account. We knew that an RfC/U existed on the user. We knew this was a problem user. Some of us !voted to oppose because we felt that the secret information was unacceptable for an RfA. Some of you !voted to support because you felt you had enough information based on Fæ's edits. If John or Fæ had lied or even actively misled folks during the RfA that would be a problem. I've seen no evidence of that. John seemed perfectly frank. As did Fæ. They clearly told us what they weren't telling us. In no way was anyone misled. I don't see the basis for any complaint about the RfA.

Users who endorse this summary:

  1. Hobit (talk) 17:27, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
  2. I tend to agree here, he did admit during the Rfa that he had a troubled past account and a few cautious users opposed based on that fact. Mark Arsten (talk) 19:06, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
  3. --Mkativerata (talk) 19:10, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
  4. Shrigley (talk) 20:23, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
  5. I was in the Support column in that RFA, I haven't yet seen anything to challenge the things we were told in that RFA ,clean blocklog exercised Cleanstart etc. ϢereSpielChequers 21:34, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
  6. The RfA was not misleading in any way. That said, an examination of the history of Ash/Fae makes the user seem like a rather slimy character. I think DC was correct when he said that Fae wouldn't have passed RfA if people knew he was Ash. However, Fae managed to conceal his past, within the limits of policy, from most voters. And as a result, the RfA electorate made a (in my opinion) stupid decision, which is something that we probably have to live with. If there are continuing issues with misrepresentation of sources, that's another matter entirely. A Stop at Willoughby (talk) 22:49, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
  7. Nothing more to say here Y u no be Russavia 03:04, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
  8. Supporters in that RfA explicitly or implicitly accepted substituting ArbCom's behind-closed-doors judgement on Fæ's previous account(s) for their own evaluation. On one hand, it is admirable that the elected leadership of Misplaced Pages was trusted by a large number of editors to make such a decision for them. On the other hand, what you don't know won't hurt you. Real-life candidates for office can only dream of a way to "clean start" themselves away form voters' direct scrutiny. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 05:58, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
  9. Sounds right. It can of course be debated whether the RfA would have passed with full disclosure, but apart from the name of the old account the situation was made clear to !voters at the time. Jafeluv (talk) 12:22, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
  10. From the evidence I have seen, I concur. In the very first lines of the RfA this (past questionable account) is mentioned. Full disclosure to be unwilling to make full disclosure was clear. St John Chrysostom /my bias 15:06, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
  11. Johnbod (talk) 19:54, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
  12. —Tom Morris (talk) 20:02, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
  13. It was made clear this was a "clean start" situation. The Interior (Talk) 21:03, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
  14. My76Strat (talk) 21:30, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
  15. I opposed Fae at his RfA but he got through that process fair and square as it was made quite clear that he had a past from which he was making a fresh start. The complaints that his editing has been improper since seem quite flimsy. We can reasonably expect that his BLP edits will be scrutinised closely now and so there is no need to forbid their submission. There doesn't seem to be any significant evidence of any improper admin actions and so there doesn't seem to be any need to revisit RfA either. Warden (talk) 21:57, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
  16. I just reread the old RfA. Fæ says he had another account. Everyone knew this. There was no problem with the past process. Blue Rasberry (talk) 23:04, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
  17. I agree with Colonel Warden's analysis. I am not sure what Fae is supposed to have done wrong since March 2011 when he became an admin. (Disclosure: I am on the board of Wikimedia UK, as is Fae) The Land (talk) 23:30, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
  18. This does not necessarily mean I support or oppose the user's adminship, just that I do not believe there is anything fraudulent related to the successful RfA. The user clearly indicated he had a fresh start and disclosed a past indiscretion in accepting the nomination. If people think this user should not be an admin. any longer, desysoping is the way to go, not a rehashed RfA. CycloneGU (talk) 23:33, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
  19. No scienter, no reliance, thus no fraud. Bearian (talk) 02:30, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
  20. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:58, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
  21. I was a FIRM OPPOSE to this RfA and felt that it should have failed due to the secrecy---I still feel that way, but it didn't. It passed. I was very adamant about my opposition and how I feared this day and that if people knew who his identity were, would be upset that they opposed. I find it interesting that several of the people who are calling for a new RfA above are the very ones with whom I parlayed a year ago. Sorry, the community was fully aware of this users past {or thought they were and insisted we had enough info} when they chose to promote him. They promoted him knowing that the RfCU was ongoing at the time of the new account, that he had started this account before finishing the old one, and that Fae was worried enough about his old identity sabotoguing his RfA that he didn't want to reveal it. We've lost any basis to overturn the old RfA based upon lack of info. We promoted him knowing we didn't have the full picture. And again, I lead the opposition.---Balloonman 06:02, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
  22. ZooPro 12:13, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
  23. I supported at the RfA, but otherwise I agree with Colonel Warden's remarks. Peridon (talk) 17:05, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
  24. per WSC. BabelStone (talk) 01:11, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
  25. Marek.69 06:57, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
  26. causa sui (talk) 22:00, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
  27. This disagreement seems to be about Fæ stating his clean start occurred after or during an RfC. All this drama over one word. Unfortunately, Ash wasn't blocked. I think he should have been. Just because the accounts are now linked doesn't mean Fæ deserves the same blocks Ash did. Fæ has done a decent job as an editor and administrator. Some users don't like either accounts editing articles that have to do with homosexuality or sex. Get over it and move on. AniMate 09:49, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
  28. The community let this person become an admin knowing he had a past troublesome account that he did not want to reveal, and which you could only assume had horrible allegations against it. Seems absurd to me, but it passed, so be it.--Milowent • 17:51, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Outside view by 101.118.25.78

It was NOT clear during the RfA what exactly was happening. We knew there was an old account. But we did NOT know that an RfC/U existed on the user. We were assured that this was NOT a problem user. Some of us !voted to oppose because we felt that the secret information was unacceptable for an RfA. Some of you !voted to support because you believed what JvdB said about Fæ and his edits. John and Fæ actively misled folks during the RfA. This is a problem. John was not perfectly frank. Nor was Fæ. They never clearly told us what they weren't telling us. In several key ways, we were misled. There is a fundamental basis for any complaint about the RfA. 101.118.25.78 (talk) 21:04, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Users who endorse this summary:

Clearly the fact that the user left his previous account and that a RFC user was outstanding against that account was withheld from RFA voters. Youreallycan 23:06, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Comment (and apologies if this should go elsewhere) - in the RfA], Fae's acceptance statement of nomination for adminship reads as follows: "I accept. For reasons of disclosure it should be noted that after an RFC/U which caused me to refocus and improve my Misplaced Pages editing I took the option of a clean start, though I have never been blocked. Prior to this nomination I spoke privately with one of the critical contributors to the discussion, who knows both account names and we have resolved our concerns. I will recuse myself of admin requests related to editors who gave an opinion in that discussion. This is the first time I have had an RFA nomination. Fæ (talk) 22:00, 14 March 2011 (UTC) " I am uninvolved here, but thought it reasonable to point out that the RfC/U was openly acknowledged from the very beginning, although without any useful details. Colonel Tom 23:17, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
  • "after an RFC/U which caused me to refocus and improve my Misplaced Pages editing" doesn't read quite the same as retiring under a cloud during an active RfC, though, does it? I'm assuming that when it was stated above that the RfC was active at the time of retiring, that was correct? Pesky (talk …stalk!) 20:43, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Outside view by ReverendWayne

Fæ said he took the option of a clean start "after an RFC/U". "During an RFC/U" would have been accurate; using the word "after" was misleading, even if unintentionally so.

Users who endorse this summary:

  1. ReverendWayne (talk) 03:08, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
  2. --Peter cohen (talk) 04:02, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
  3. "Before" would be even more accurate given that the Fæ account first edited on March 28 and the RfC/U on Ash was officially started on April 5. However, the dispute had been going on in other venues for some time before that . See the discussion on sequencing on the talk page here for further details. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 03:45, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
  4. Salvio 10:22, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
  5. Nobody Ent 11:06, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
  6. Alas - it certainly appears that "during" would be a far better term than "after," and "before" even more accurate, as his departure ended the RfC/U with "User has stopped editing Misplaced Pages. Delisted due to inactivity" on 30 May 2010. The User:Fae account was created in March 2010. Before closure of the RfC/U. In fact, before starting of the RfC/U. I suggest that the starting and use of an "alternate persona" was not properly disclosed at the RfA at all. And that a "clean start" anticipates a "new name" not one which was already in use. Collect (talk) 13:42, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
  7. --Guerillero | My Talk 19:44, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
  8. RafikiSykes (talk) 20:11, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
  9. - the comment was not a fair portrayal of the facts. Youreallycan 20:18, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
  10. Very misleading. (See my comment above) Pesky (talk …stalk!) 20:44, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
  11. Bulwersator (talk) 23:06, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
  12. "after" certainly implied (falsely) that the process was over. Cullen Let's discuss it 05:18, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
  13. The RfC/U didn't reach a conclusion / resolution. Fæ decided to seek an easy way out, followed by an easy way back in. !voters weren't aware that Fæ sought the easy way out of the RfC/U. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 14:15, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
  14. Weasel wording! ;-) St John Chrysostom /my bias 18:45, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
  15. Epbr123 (talk) 10:32, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
  16. I can support this. It was dececptive, but the community also bears culpability for failing to dig further.---Balloonman 16:03, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
  17. Definitely deceptive IMO too, and I share Balloonman's further observations. Begoon  05:10, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
  18. Nformation 01:25, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Questionable claim of "clean start" (Outside view by ASCIIn2Bme)

Under the working assumption that Ash = Fæ, the claim of clean start is questionable. The dormant RfC on User:Ash prominently concerned disputed sourcing of various gay pornography articles and lists. That topic is not very far afield WP:BLP-wise from the dispute whether some model's alleged adult video and alleged "superhead" sexually-loaded nickname belong in her Misplaced Pages biography—a heated dispute involving User:Fæ and others. If one peruses the talk page archives of Karrine Steffans, it's hard to avoid the conclusion that several editors on both sides behaved subpar there. The Misplaced Pages:CLEANSTART#Contentious and scrutinized topics policy speaks at some length about this, including "if the old account came to community attention, or the topic is the subject of edit-wars and contentious editing, and especially if your old account was involved or your new account will be, then it may be seen as evading scrutiny not to disclose the old account."

Users who endorse this summary:

  1. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 11:04, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
  2. Spot-on. The commonality here is the lightheaded use of primary sources from the adult entertainment industry for BLPs. --JN466 13:08, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
  3. Endorse as per Jayen466. This editor seems to have a poor grasp of WP:RS, etc. St John Chrysostom /my bias 15:09, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
  4. --Peter cohen (talk) 15:31, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
  5. Salvio 15:32, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
  6. --Guerillero | My Talk 19:44, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
  7. RafikiSykes (talk) 19:48, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
  8. The disputes involving the old username and the new one both involve reliable sources related to "pornography" and the sexual orientation of the involved subjects is secondary. BLPs of any variety must rely on the highest quality of sources, especially when controversial matters like pornography are involved. Cullen Let's discuss it 05:23, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
  9. It's very poor that nobody at Arbcom checked to see if Fae's understanding of WP:RS had improved before allowing him to run for admin. Epbr123 (talk) 10:54, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
  10. Nformation 01:26, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Outside view by Secret

Fae, since his RFA has been a good administrator without much complaint. But if people who voted for Fae knew about his past, he for certain wouldn't have passed RFA. Reminds me of the Sam Blackster situation, in which an former administrator desysopped by ArbCom created a new account and became an ArbCom member without the community noticing until it was a bit too late. Better to resign and do an new RFA to salvage your reputation. Cases like this hurts the reputation of RFA, and makes it harder to pass it for editors who edit in good faith, but has had a blemish or two in their history.


Users who endorse this summary:

  1. Secret 20:27, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
  2. Salvio 22:09, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
  3. Endorse "Better to resign and do a new RfA" as per my statements above about the RfA. St John Chrysostom /my bias 22:40, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
  4. Endorse all but the call for a reconfirm RfA/resignation. Culpability does not lie on Fae, but rather on those who supported the RfA (which includes Secret) without demanding full disclosure. Fae told us during the RfA that if his identity were known that it would sabotogue his RfA's chances. This was acknowledged by Fae during the RfA. The disfunctionality of the system is not his fault nor is the fact that his promotion demeans the RfA process. The RfA community who chose to promote, despite the secrecy surrounding the RfC---and the claims that it appeared to be a trolling RfC has to be discounted.---Balloonman 03:10, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
  5. Agreed. Something that we shouldn't forget in the midst of this RFC is that Fae is a good editor and is an overall plus to the project (by a landslide). The problem here is his unresolved conduct issues, secrecy, and the worst IMO is his lack of response to what I believe is a valid set of questions regarding said conduct and his past. Nformation 01:30, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
  6. Actually, I can endorse this too, except (per BM again) the enforced recall. He is indeed a good editor, and a plus to the project. What would be an even bigger plus would be for side to stop picking and picking, and for side to quit implying that innocent folks with an opinion have a homophobic motive and accept/confirm that we all know where we are and move on. That should fix it. Begoon  10:00, 1 February 2012 (UTC)


Reading further outside view

Later note: I think the community got fooled with this case. The reasons behind the RFC is unacceptable. There was other ways to handle this. With Fae, remember editors can become reformed, and become a successful member of the community as proven many times before. Given the time between the RFC and the time he passed RFA, it was enough that Fae could have passed an RFA with his original username. Why I think the community is kinda outraged was because of the reasons why Fae had an RFC in the first place, which included massive BLP issues, and the lack of information about the RFC in the RFA. The RFA was kinda misleading in the fact that he said that he had an "RFC" and left, which can indicate a huge number of potential users on the "who may it be scale". But considering he had later gained OTRS access and ArbCom was supporting him, when the RFA happened the community probably thought that Fae first did the cleanstart after a trolling RFC, which is extremely common. Fae made a huge mistake by not disclosing the reasons why the original RFC was created against him in the first place. If he did all this drama would have been avoided (though the cleanstart would have been moot). I think he should quietly resign, or at least accept some wrong on this. We should also what to do with future cleanstart RFAs. I personally think this RFC should close as this was created for the wrong reasons, and we can't show this RFC as an allowance for disruptive trolls to oust editors that they dislike, no matter the circumstances.


Users who endorse this summary:

  1. Secret 06:00, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Outside view by My76Strat

It is clear the Fæ has lost the trust of a significant portion of users who previously supported their RfA. As unlikely as it might appear that Fæ could succeed at reconfirmation, I surmise it is imperative and call on Fæ to initiate a reconfirmation RfA without delay.

Users who endorse this summary:

  1. My76Strat (talk) 21:39, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
  2. Salvio 22:10, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
    See User:Fæ/Recall process --Guerillero | My Talk 23:05, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
    "petition were based on edits made since my last RFA." and "Problematic behaviours should represent a current problem and evidence when a petition is raised should be based on issues within the previous 12 months." Bulwersator (talk) 23:08, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
    I suspect this proposal for recall fails all four tests in Fae's criteria for recall. As well as the two Bulwersator mentions, the Misplaced Pages Review stuff means it fails the" Evidence of negative canvassing may cause the petition to be considered invalid." test. ϢereSpielChequers 17:18, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
  3. Bulwersator (talk) 23:08, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
  4. No point in hanging on , the cats out of the bag. Unclear clean start resulting in a loss of support. Youreallycan 23:25, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
  5. Axl ¤ 00:52, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
  6. I wouldn't go as far as an immediate reconfirmation RFA though. We want to minimize the least drama possible. Secret 01:06, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
  7. Resignation or reconfirmation seem the only two viable options. Cullen Let's discuss it 05:25, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
  8. I was not involved in the previous RfA, but I concur, as per my short statements in all above endorsements. St John Chrysostom /my bias 00:13, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
  9. RafikiSykes (talk) 14:51, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
  10. Nformation 01:20, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Sourcing complaint is weak (Outside view by TCO)

It's hard to really have all the perspective on Fae/ash/Arbcom/WR/WMUK/etc, but the sourcing complaints seem like nits. More of a gotcha game. If we really want to evaluate the guy's writing, some sort of general look at several articles and the total amount of cite problems makes more sense.

I mean this entire encyclopedia has vast stretches of completely unreferenced content. And we accept it and let people Google into it every day. So the guy had a single fact (the gay beach, which btw hasn't been contested on its truth just on verifiability) that was unreferenced. Also, it was in a stub. Many people put less effort into a short article...are just trying to get something created to have an article...not vette it like crazy (heck that it had any sources is something!)

I bet the only way to avoid never having an unsupported claim is to never write an article. Even our very best writers on our very best articles (FACs with huge time spent on them) still get found out with some little mistakes by reviewers. Given some of the admins who don't even write, I really doubt Fae is so awful that he needs some sanction. He might even be above average.

Oh...and if you've never had a photo deleted for copyright, you're probably not participating enough. Not saying you should have one of those pages with 10 in a row deletions notices on Commons. But having an image turn out to need to go bye-bye does not make you teh eeful.

It's a given that our articles are not perfect...heck are not even looked at by an editor before publishing! Yeah, we should work to improve them, sure. But some attitude that ZOMFG I found a mistake, let's stop the presses is unrealistic. It's just disconnected to the actual state of our work product.

Users who endorse this summary:

  1. TCO (talk) 23:20, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
  2. We hold Admins to higher standards than other editors, and if he'd tried to get a DYK on that beach being Gay people would have expected a RS. But if Fae considered it an uncontentious fact that didn't need to be verified, then if someone disagrees the appropriate thing is to slap a {{fact}} tag on it. ϢereSpielChequers 15:07, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
    As someone who has surfed Black's Beach, I've learned that "nude beach" is almost like code words for "gay beach".TCO (talk) 22:46, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
    Next thing you're going to be telling us is that "family" is code for "gay" as well ;-)---Balloonman 02:55, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
    I always thought "nude beach" was code for "Warning!!! HIPPIES!!!!". When did they change the codes? Was there an RfC on this? This is indeed very important - I MUST know what the new code for "Warning!!! HIPPIES!!!!" is. That's not something I want to take risks on.VolunteerMarek 03:00, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
    My buddy said Dog Beach on Point Loma was the place to pick up women. They are just hanging out, walking the dog on a weekend morning, in a sweatshirt. Pretty approachable and willing to talk. And the dogs naturally making friends gives the perfect icebreaker.TCO (talk) 03:03, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
  3. Support summary - My76Strat (talk) 02:50, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
  4. Support I can't be participating enough because I've never had an image deleted. (Possibly because I've never uploaded one - I cycled out to take a photo of a sculpture and then found someone else had done the same.) Peridon (talk) 17:33, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
    If you've never uploaded a picture, you are not participating enough. (And doesn't need to be your photo, can be a free one that you find on Google and upload...or a donation you get for a non-free one.)TCO (talk) 18:07, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
    When the weather's better, I do plan to photograph stations as I travel around. Peridon (talk) 12:19, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
  5. Support. I only looked at this case for an hour or two, but I think you hit the nail on the head. I was particularly moved by Ash's statement that "My work over the last 2 months to create a series of reasonable start-level articles for gay pornographic actors appears to be the real issue that you have with my existence on Misplaced Pages, a task that I started after you purged all "non-bluelink" names from the list of actors in gay porn films." I find it entirely plausible that Ash, being henpecked for what he suspected, and I suspect, to be entirely unreasonable ulterior motives, simply left out a source or used a substandard source here and there. There's a huge difference between deliberately misrepresenting sources, as in the Noleander case, and accidentally misrepresenting (or rather, simply leaving out) sources. I believe in "VnT", but not when it comes to evaluating an editor's motives and seriousness - the fact that nobody has turned up to say that that bathhouse really only had two floors makes me think it was no great crime to say three. Wnt (talk) 23:29, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
  6. Support - Comments by Wnt above move me to agree with this view. CycloneGU (talk) 00:03, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

View of Balloonman

Hate to say I told you so, but I told you so. My oppose rationale to his RFA:

Barring a major reversal this RfA is going to pass, but I can't in good conscious support it right now. While the person might have a clean start and have a solid history as such, I can't help but wonder if there are people here who might go the other way if they knew who this was. Who might be upset if they realized who they were supporting? While I do believe in a clean start, that clean start only goes so far... while I generally will only look at the past years worth of edits, it does concern me that we are unable to assess prior history. Faes history was apparently disruptive enough to invoke an RfC and possible sanctions (possibly as recently as a year ago); yet we have to take it on faith that Fae addressed those concerns/issues. I appreciate that Fae others view him as admin material, but I can't help but think of others who have run (granted in secret) on new accounts. Sorry, but I can't support at this juncture.---Balloonman NO! I'm Spartacus! 20:53, 17 March 2011 (UTC)NOTE: I've moved to FIRM oppose. The more I think about it, the more I do not like the secrecy surrounding this. A clean start is fine and I would have no problems with somebody coming here with one, if it wasn't for the fact an RFC led to the clean start. Who does the "secrecy" protect? This candidate. He is free to reveal his prior accounts at anytime, but choses to run while hiding.

There was too much secrecy a year ago when he ran, and as I feared, the revelation of his former identity is causing a stir. Was he deceptive in his RfA---a little, but people were informed of the facts and they chose to support him despite the lack of information and the known risk that this might occur. His adminship passed despite the fact that we knew at the time that he underwent his clean start "under a cloud" and that there might have been sanctions had the RfCU continued. But they still accepted him as an admin. The community made the bed and now must lie in it. Elsewhere in the RfA I wrote:

this isn't a matter of just a clean start, clean start can be invoked for several reasons: Harrassment, having revealed one's person identity, etc. This clean start was started as a direct result of an RfC. People who undergo clean starts are free to run for adminship, but the community is also free to question the issue and to oppose based upon that issue. {...} But the fact is that this person had an issue that was significant enough to involve and RfC that resulted in a clean start. That issue may have occured as recently as 12 months ago, but the community is completely unable to assess whether or not he has changed. Fae appeals to some superhyped "secrecy". If Fae is so concerned that if his prior account were known that it would sabotogue this RfA, then I think that seals the deal for me.

We cannot now claim that we didn't know about his past or that we were ignorant of the possibility. People supported and defended him vigorously during the RfA... and it passed. His actions must be judged on what he has done since gaining the bit. We lost any moral imperative to revoke the bit or nullify the RfA due to secrecy. If there isn't enough to remove the bit as a result of actions taken under the Fae account, then tough. The community voted to accept Fae KNOWING the dubiousness of his past by a ratio of 5:1. *I* say this as the leading voices in the opposition.---Balloonman 05:54, 29 January 2012 (UTC)


Users who endorse this summary:

View 2 by Balloonman

A few people have stated above that they will oppose all clean start candidates at RfA or that there is a need for full information at RfA. In general, I agree, but there are valid reasons for clean start---Harrassment and/or revelations of real life identity, involuntary outing are a few. Thus, I think it is important to distinguish between a clean start to avoid one's past and one for other reasons. In other words, there are some reasons why Clean Start should not be a barrier to passing RfA.---Balloonman 06:44, 29 January 2012 (UTC)


Users who endorse this summary:

  1. Anyone who intends to oppose all future Cleanstart candidates needs to think first how they intend to spot them. I suspect what they really mean is opposing anyone who admits to being a Cleanstart candidate. I'd prefer to know that someone is a cleanstart candidate, but currently they don't have to tell us. ϢereSpielChequers 14:49, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
  2. WP:CLEANSTART clearly says, "You are not obliged to reveal previous accounts". Therefore, I concur with this viewpoint. Why would one want to connect themselves with the old account where they gained public humiliation, as this viewpoint states? CycloneGU (talk) 15:26, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
  3. Nobody Ent 16:19, 29 January 2012 (UTC) For me, the issue isn't that Fae cleanstarted, but that they didn't. Nobody Ent 16:19, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
  4. Fair enough. Not that I hang out at RFA much anyway.--Peter cohen (talk) 20:56, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
  5. Agreed. A blanket approach of opposing all clean start RfAs would give 'crats some difficulty I suspect. This scenario has no real bearing on a user who chooses to start afresh after serious harrassment when their conduct on the project has never been called into question. WJBscribe (talk) 23:31, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
  6. Endorse "Harrassment and/or revelations of real life identity, involuntary outing" St John Chrysostom /my bias 00:18, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
  7. Agree. Largely per Nobody Ent - the issue is not how a "cleanstart" should be treated, because one does not appear to have actually happened here. Begoon  05:18, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

View by HJ

Diffs should be presented for the claims of manipulation of sources since the clean start. A single (disputed) diff accompanied by a vague assertion of misconduct, claims of impropriety on another project (which are a matter for the equivalent process on Commons), and reheating a nearly two-year-old RfC is not sufficient. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:44, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Users who endorse this summary:

  1. Straight shooter award for HJ.TCO (talk) 22:40, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
  2. I endorsed Themfromspace's view, but I suppose I agree with this as well. The more I think about it, the main problem isn't Fæ's post-RfA conduct (which doesn't seem harmful) so much as the shrug most of us gave to the information provided at the RfA. AlexiusHoratius 01:31, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
  3. Hear, hear. CycloneGU (talk) 02:00, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
  4. Agree, this looks more like people are upset about the fact that the RfA community was duped...but it isn't Fae's fault that the community decided to prove how magnanumous and forgiving it was by promoting him in err. The community spoke loudly in support despite the dubiousness of his RfA situation. A call for a new RfC needs to be based upon actions that occurred in the past year since his RfA. Elsewise it is a witch hunt. It might be different if he ran in secret, but the community knew this was a risk and chose to promote anyways. The fact that we are disfunctional is not his fault.---Balloonman 02:52, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
  5. --Mkativerata (talk) 08:05, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
  6. Pretty much it, minus the harassment aspects. Y u no be Russavia 08:18, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
  7. what are the issues with the conduct of this account and post RfA.Mtking 08:42, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
  8. --В и к и T 16:38, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
  9. Agreed. Peridon (talk) 17:35, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
  10. ϢereSpielChequers 21:11, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
  11. This RfC is the highly damaging mess that is because of the original failure to identify any context for it. Exok (talk) 21:20, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
  12. œ 04:28, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
  13. Agreed. As Rich Farmbrough has pointed out, this RfC apparently isn't even certified. Even if you count the old one I haven't seen one single smoking gun of genuine Bad Conduct in the whole mess, just a lot of harmless little details that are trumped up in the summarization and re-summarization. Wnt (talk) 18:31, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
  14. Strongly agree. Reaper Eternal (talk) 19:30, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Outside view by Anthonyhcole

This editor deceived the community during this RfC, which was addressing poor behaviour, by declaring that he was quitting. This resulted in the RfC being put on hold and the likely ban on editing BLPs not being applied. He then misled the community at his RfA by declaring that he had opted for a clean start "after" an RfC. At the RfA he pointedly stated that he had never been blocked nor had a ban imposed, while knowing the only reason he avoided a likely BLP topic ban was his lie about quitting the project. I'm also very unimpressed by this editor's persistent arguing that an embarrassing nickname should be included in a BLP, never mind the dubious quality of sources. What kind of person does that? ArbCom should heed this case. If another editor applies for a clean start after "quitting" while under scrutiny, ArbCom should advise the editor to return to the community and complete the process before agreeing to a clean start. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 15:32, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Users who endorse this summary:

  1. Factual, and good advice indeed to arbcom. Note statement from Fæ. . --JN466 17:01, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
  2. I can support this as well. I would add, that the RfA community bears cupability for allowing an RfA to pass despite glaring deficeincies in the rfa. But the RfA and ArbCOM communities turned a blind eye to it and said "We don't care."---Balloonman 16:58, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
  3. "support" including what Ballonman said.--Peter cohen (talk) 20:54, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
  4. Strongly endorse, including all preceding comments. St John Chrysostom /my bias 00:21, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
  5. Agree but my agreement is best viewed as "per Balloonman's comments" - he expressed well a view I share. Begoon  02:59, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
  6. Epbr123 (talk) 18:23, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
  7. Strong support Nformation 01:23, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

(far) Outside view by SB_Johnny

Given that Fæ's identity is quite public and therefore there is no additional "risk" to simply and directly acknowledging (or denying, if that's the case) that the Ash account did indeed belong to the same person, refusing to make that acknowledgement (or denial) serves absolutely no purpose but to feed a worthless drama. Dropping the secrecy would be a helpful thing to do, and (perhaps) allow for a more rational discussion of what people want to see happen.

Users who endorse this summary:

  1. Proposed. --SB_Johnny |  18:01, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
  2. Pretty obvious - and a far better course than to have anyone "delete" this RFC/U. Collect (talk) 19:52, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
    Thanks, Collect... that's what I was intending to say but somehow managed not to quite say it because I was distracted by something completely unrelated. When the cat's out of the bag, it makes more sense to go buy some meow mix and a litterbox rather than trying to pretend that there is not now nor was there ever a cat in the bag ;-). And nice to bump into you again as always. --SB_Johnny |  20:47, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
  3. Yeah, much of this drama could have been avoided that way. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 20:05, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
  4. Yes indeed. Tarc (talk) 20:07, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
  5. --Peter cohen (talk) 20:48, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
  6. --JN466 21:56, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
  7. Should have been disclosed at the time of the RfA. WJBscribe (talk) 23:32, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
  8. Cla68 (talk) 23:35, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
  9. Fully endorse. St John Chrysostom /my bias 00:23, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
  10. Yes. That seems sensible, and overdue. Begoon  03:01, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
  11. Bulwersator (talk) 14:04, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
  12. The cat has been out of the bag for a long time now. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 14:55, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
  13. Nobody Ent 15:38, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
  14. Per WJB, although I think it is essentially admitted to now.---Balloonman 23:30, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
  15. I agree and find the lack of response to this RFC as well as to the question in general to be problematic. Admins are expected to answer to the community that gave them adminship in the first place. Nformation 01:24, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

General comment by Wnt

This process denigrates a highly active and productive editor, for the sake of elevating the most malignant forces at work on Misplaced Pages.

Understand that the control of Misplaced Pages, the right to broadcast and most especially if preventing the broadcasting of certain information, is incredibly valuable. It is comparable to commercial sites that sell for millions if not billions of dollars. And like it or not, the admins are largely in control of these assets. There are some of us, inclusionists, who like to use Misplaced Pages as an open pool of information, free for everyone to take and contribute what they find interesting, free of restriction and connivance. But we are opposed by a deletionists, in particular some few dozens who are highly active, who distort, misinterpret, and outright abuse Misplaced Pages policies to take out stuff they don't like. They are champions of wounded ethics, telling us that we shouldn't talk about the humorous sense of "santorum" or show the Rorschach blots or cite Wikileaks documents, as if somehow all the things distributed by reputable press outlets and Google suddenly become wrong because we put them on a free site. While we work from sources, they work from watch lists. While we type up cite templates, they revert other people with poor excuses. But now they go further, and make it their business to delete editors, and specifically, admins.

Who is the villain? The one who uses a reputable, though Misplaced Pages-citing, reference about a list of actors to support some small fact about an actor? Or the one who lays down an edict that any actor mentioned in an article has to be blue-linked or else removed? Our guidelines on notability are clear - they control who has an article written about them, not who is mentioned at all.

If we use this process to revoke Fae's admin status, despite the lack of evidence of any abuse of it, that's truly remarkable. What admin doesn't make bad calls that would incense us? It means we are legitimizing private-eye tactics and trifles over genuine evaluation of admin performance. We are legitimizing privacy invasion and bullying and anti-gay pandering and threats. We are giving people who want nothing but to turn our open pool into their private plaything yet another admin's head for their pointy stick. Are they quietly accumulating their own sleeper agents among the admins, or simply relying on the threat of being branded on the internet with bad publicity to give them more and more power over the others? Whatever they intend, it should be clear that every independent Misplaced Pages admin will eventually be voted off the island, unless they stand up to these people and stop these purges.

Users who endorse this summary:

  1. Proposed. Wnt (talk) 19:23, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
  2. Agree with this statement minus paragraph #2. Reaper Eternal (talk) 19:29, 1 February 2012 (UTC)


Balancing comment from Collect

The issues regarding the prior account, the RFC/U closing, and the new account then applying at RfA are real and substantial. Those indicating a concern have evinced no anti-gay, homophobic or other concerns here at all. This is not a "deletionist" vs. "inclusionist" debate at all, it is a discussion about whether Misplaced Pages procedures have been fully and properly complied with. Nor is this a venue to discuss abrogating WP:BLP or any other fundamental policy of Misplaced Pages. Collect (talk) 19:33, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Users who endorse this comment:

  1. Collect (talk) 19:33, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

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