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24 civilians

As far as i can see the sources say that all 24 killed are civilians. So i would like to change the lede accordingly. Any objections? Rura88 (talk) 02:10, 26 January 2012 (UTC) Changed, reference added. Rura88 (talk) 03:25, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

There's a reason for the difference.

Earlier stories (like this one) used the number 15.

I know they use the number 24 now. It would be good to know the story behind that. I suspect that reporters simply got lazy.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 04:34, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

The story behind? Obviously the result of the cover up. Rura88 (talk) 04:44, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Nope. Nothing obvious about the situation.

The link I gave you that says 15 civilians was long after. Only 15 received condolence payments.

There was no cover up. Wuterich reported what happened as he saw it. It was a public affairs officer who mangled the story. Wuterich never had to change his.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 05:40, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

They initially said that the civilians were killed by a road site bomb while knowing that they shot them from close range and then even one of the guy urinated on the corpse. No cover up? Not to be rude but i think you must be either blind or you might belong in the same category as the people who deny the holocaust. Rura88 (talk) 05:59, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Did you even read what I wrote? (It was only three lines.)

I said "It was a public affairs officer who mangled the story." Got that? (I even gave you a link.) Wuterich never said the civilians were killed by a roadside bomb. If he had, he'd be in prison.

The military really isn't as portrayed in graphic novels.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 06:20, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

The public US military public affairs office covered it up? So did Wuterich and his gang report to them they had killed a bunch of unarmed women, children, and infant and a man in a wheel chair or did the report they were killed by a road side bomb. What do you think? Rura88 (talk) 06:31, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Apparently, you didn't do any reading.

The public affairs officer didn't intentionally "cover it up." He simply wasn't there, made assumptions, and thought it was good enough. People make stupid mistakes, particularly in wartime.

Wuterich did indeed report that they had accidentally killed women and children. Fog of war. If he hadn't reported it, he'd be in prison.

Nobody seriously believed Wuterich ever blamed those deaths on the roadside bomb. Not for five years, anyway.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 00:56, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

I guess you did not enough reading. I read it all.

So the US military covered it up. Nobody is so stupid to publish a paper that says 15 people were killed by a roadside bomb when in fact these women and children were massacred in their houses in their bedrooms in their night cloth from close range by the weapons of these soldiers.

Why did the US military only started to investigate the case after they were shown the videos and after months when they actually knew what had happened? You say they knew, right? Rura88 (talk) 01:38, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

What they "knew" had happened was that Wuterich and his marines were sent to a house that had been firing upon them. They knew that women and children were killed during their pursuit of the insurgents. At the time, it was reasonable to believe that the marines' version was true. After the investigations, forensic evidence, and trials, it turns out to still be the most likely version to have most truth.

The link I gave you says:

The 130-page report, by Maj. Gen. Eldon A. Bargewell of the Army, did not conclude that the senior officers covered up evidence or committed a crime. But it said the Marine Corps command in Iraq was far too willing to tolerate civilian casualties and dismiss Iraqi claims of abuse by marines as insurgent propaganda, according to lawyers who have read it.

You obviously imagine that the marines went in, lined everyone up, and shot them. That's not what happened. In reality, none of the women or children were killed by a direct shot where it is known that the marine could tell they were killing women and children. There was one accusation but it fell apart along with most of these cases.

The original McGirk story reads differently, but most of that comes from Iraqis, who either support the insurgents, or would get their heads chopped off if they opposed them.

The press release was certainly sloppy but not criminal. He justified it in that the IED and the sniper fire were part of the same coordinated attack, which is technically true. But it could easily have been written to follow Wuterich's version of events. Wuterich would initially have been no worse off for it, and McGirk's story could not have had the veneer of a cover up.

Yes, the military should have investigated more, as my quote of their report concludes, but you're forgetting the nature of this war. Insurgents have been fighting around civilians since the beginning. The people who claim to be upset at civilian casualties are (assuming they meant it when they said they care about the Geneva Conventions) supposed to demand that insurgents separate themselves from noncombatants in accordance with the laws of war. The Marines decided to train for this better. What have the critics demanded of the insurgents? Nothing.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 17:47, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

The discrepancy is because Ahmed Khidher, the taxi driver, plus the four unarmed male passengers in the taxi, as well as four pajama-clad men living in the Haditha houses that were cleared by Wuterich and his squad initially were deemed to be "military age males" by US Marine officers. (ie Iraqis older than kids and younger than senior citizens!) When the NCIS investigation determined that they did not possess weapons the death tally rose. McGirk's original story refers to "at least 23 deaths" and explains "It considers the four men killed in the fourth house, as well as four youths killed by the Marines near the site of the roadside bombing, as enemy fighters."

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1174649,00.html#ixzz1lAAwgfOh

Killer between 2006-2008

What about the killers between 2006-2008 and Wuterich 2006-2012? Were these in the normal service of the army?--Falkmart (talk) 15:25, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Repeated deletion of the Category: "Massacres in Iraq"

Please content you do not like. Intention is not needed for a massacre, more than enough sources call it a massacre. Categories are helpful for people to find the stuff they are looking for. That you personally think that the slaughtering of these people is not a massacre does not matter and it just speaks for you. The category is needed so that people can find the article under the category they are looking for. Enough people and sources think it is a massacre and enough people and sources have call it a massacre. Rura88 (talk) 19:19, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

There's a lot of content I don't like that I don't delete. I deleted this one because it's wrong, not neutral, and it's a BLP. And, let's face it, your viewpoint is out of date. The "cover up" claims were known to be B.S. years ago.

Newspapers sometimes qualify the word "massacre" with quotes because critics do use the word. Sometimes you'll see a reporter use it because they're just plain ignorant. They've watched a few Star Trek reruns, read a few graphic novels, and thought they understood how the military works. You'll also see "massacre" in headlines, without being in the story, when the reporter knows it's not a massacre but the editor either doesn't know any better, or thinks it will sell newspapers. Foreign newspapers, columnists, and bloggers will call it a massacre, but they don't care. They don't have the BLP issues that we do. There's even a BLP warning on this talk page.

If every mass killing was a massacre then we'd call the Costa Concordia disaster a massacre, too. But that's not a massacre, and neither is this.

As for the people looking at the categories for civilian deaths, that's the very reason we have a category for civilian deaths. Haditha is already listed. People looking for any major incidents involving civilian deaths will find it there. The massacre categories are where they go if they want to find genuine massacres.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 00:56, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Your description about what a massacre is and your interpretation of the sources are plain wrong and your arguments are along the lines of someone who denies the holocaust.

I could imagine to discuss about the "war crimes" category but i think we can leave that one out for the moment but that this was a massacre is reflected in the sources and more that enough people on both sides think so.

First sentence Reuters a few hours ago The Haditha massacre that killed 24 Iraqis,... Rura88 (talk) 01:25, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

It's funny you say that. It is actually the people who oppose the Marines, and falsely accuse them of crimes, that either literally deny the Holocaust, or find common cause with those who do.

Yes, literally. It's obvious I'm not on that side.

What Wuterich did would be a war crime, and a massacre, if it was intentional, or intentionally indiscriminate. It wasn't either of those things. If it had been, they'd have killed all the women and children.

For your link, the intro is probably written by the editor, which is like what I said about headlines.

There's only one use of the word "massacre" in that story that's probably intended to be legit. It's the line that begins, "The Haditha massacre that killed 24 Iraqis," but that could be because people called it that. The others are not direct uses of the word.

With this many stories in the news, we're going to get some idiots. When you're talking about living people, you need a higher standard than a couple of odd articles. This is especially true when you're not willing to call other accidents "massacres."

One problem is, you seem to have been of the belief that this wasn't an accident; that they went wild for revenge because that bomb went off; and then targeted children. But you'll have to face the fact that this isn't the case.

Proper news stories don't use the word "massacre" that way: The BBC didn't use the word at all. Neither did [the Seattle Times. CNN uses "alleged." Newsday says "became known as the Haditha massacre."

That's how it's supposed to be done.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 17:47, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

While it is disputed if the massacre constitute a war crime or not, it is not disputed that the slaughtering of these 24 women, children and men is a massacre.

Intention is not needed for a massacre to be a massacre. Please provide references for your claims. What source did you use for your research about what a massacre is and what not?

You mischaracterize the sources in a way that makes me wonder if you might be a 6th grader who has no idea what he is talking about or someone who is so blinded from denial that he can not read the sources. Your words are so full of false statements that i begin to question your good faith.

• Reuters the source i gave you is clear - Reuters says it is a massacre.

"killed by U.S. troops in a 2005 massacre"

"The Haditha massacre that killed 24 Iraqis,... stoked global outrage

"The last U.S. soldier accused in leading the massacre..."

Reuters is a highly reliable source and that are there words.

I guess that you are so blinded by your denial that you simply overlooked all the other sources that contradict your claim. Here are just a few more coming from an easy Google search.

• The Telegraph "The Iraqi government is planning legal action on behalf of families of victims killed by US troops in a 2005 massacre in Haditha."

• San Francisco Chronicle "Haditha residents and relatives of those killed in the 2005 massacre voiced shock and disgust after manslaughter charges were dropped...", "Haditha outraged as Marine avoids jail in massacre"

• The Christian Science Monitor "Haditha massacre verdict stuns Iraqis.", "...pled guilty to involvement in killing Iraqi civilians in notorious 2005 massacre will serve no jail time,..."

• Newsday "No jail time in massacre"

• The Hindu "...the light sentence meted out to a soldier involved in the massacre.", "...a woman upon whom he had performed an appendectomy a week before the massacre."

• Dailymail "It was the massacre which left 24 unarmed Iraqis dead and cast fresh shame on the American military,..."

• New York Times "Junkyard Gives Up Secret Accounts of Massacre in Iraq", "Transcripts of military interviews from the investigation into the Haditha massacre were found...", "...the 2005 massacre by Marines of Iraqi civilians in the town of Haditha."

• Gulfnews "Marine's plea deal for Haditha massacre sparks outrage", "The massacre, which is often described as one the major events in the War in Iraq,..."

• The Sydney Morning Herald "His cousin was killed by the marines in the Haditha massacre in November 2005."

• NewsCore "...will not serve any time in confinement for his role in a 2005 massacre of Iraqi civilians...", "Wuterich is the last of seven Marines to face charges tied to the massacre."

• AFP "...was spared jail by a US military court over the massacre of 24 unarmed civilians..."

• The Atlantic "...for his role as squad leader of a group that massacred 24 unarmed Iraqis in Haditha..."

• The New York Times "Anger in Iraq After Plea Bargain Over 2005 Massacre", "...whose cousin was killed by the Marines in the massacre,...", "The shadows cast by the Haditha massacre,..."

• The Australian "...disgust over the light sentence meted out to a US soldier involved in the massacre.", "...had performed an appendectomy a week before the massacre."

• ABC News "While in court, Wuterich apologized to the victims' families and tried to explain how the massacre occurred."

I stop here as it seems very likely that no matter how many sources someone shows you, you will not agree that these sources are sufficient for the inclusion of the "Massacre in Iraq" category what is a fact. I do not see any reason for further discussion with you here on this talk page. See also your talk page. Rura88 (talk) 20:59, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

First you say I'm a Holocaust denier, which is pretty funny coming from a guy with "88" at the end of his single-use account name. When that turns out to be 180 degrees out of phase, you resort to saying I'm like a 6th grader. That's also pretty funny, considering that this entire discussion is about your insistence on having the article make accusations.

You say "slaughtering" as though that's how it happened. That word also shows intent which hasn't been proved -- or brought to trial.

I'm looking at wiktionary:massacre, which says it's intentional. Is there such a thing as an accidental massacre? I don't think so. But the really sad thing about the incident and its aftermath is that, with all the critics pretending to care about it, none of them bother to ask friends with connections to the insurgents that they put an end to fighting near civilians.

But this is really about your intent. Everything you've said indicates you think it was deliberate. If there was no difference, you wouldn't be so insistent on using the word. As I said, we have a perfectly good NPOV category for civilian casualties.

As for your sources, a number of those articles are either AP or AFP. Yes, they're considered RS. I'm just making the point that your wide variety of sources isn't that wide.

But the San Francisco Chronicle item is an AP story. It doesn't actually call it a massacre in the body of the story. It's as I said about editors trying to sell newspapers. The reporter had the standards I'm talking about.

Same deal with Newsday. But what's interesting about that one is that if you look at all Newsday's stories about it, they're all AP stories, but they don't call it a massacre themselves. The only time those reporters use the word is when it's being quoted by someone else.

The Atlantic link is an opinion piece. I'm surprised you even bothered with Gulfnews.

But I'll concede here that you have enough reporters using the word, and I don't think WP is going to hold to BBC standards. I will probably bring it up in the noticeboard at some point in the future.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 21:37, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Third opinion: Some of the media constitute reliable sources. The military courts of one of the belligerent parties engaged in counter-insurgency warfare (and therefore with a vested interested in "winning hearts and minds"/"winning the propaganda war"/etc. cannot be treated as the sole neutral arbiter. See also:

• More media coverage: Times of London: "The killings were described by Iraqi witnesses and prosecutors as a massacre of unarmed civilians - including women and children - carried out by Marines angered by the death of a member of their unit in a bombing."
• New York Times: The collapse this week of the prosecution of a Marine for a civilian massacre in Haditha, Iraq — a striking outcome, even in a military justice system with a mixed record of charging soldiers for war crimes — has not only outraged Iraqis but also stunned some American military law specialists.
• So it's clear my bias point isn't simply my own, from the same source: “There is a surprising pattern of acquittals,” said Eugene R. Fidell, who teaches military justice at Yale Law School. “I think there is an unwillingness in some cases of military personnel to convict their fellow soldiers in the battle space.”

--Carwil (talk) 02:12, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

I already said the NYT is among those who do this.

Your other link is different. They're doing what I said about headline writers being different from reporters. The headline and the tease both use the word "massacre" but the article writer qualifies it as "described by Iraqi witnesses and prosecutors." Interestingly, that article has a link to another story with "massacre" in the story, and it does the same thing twice.

Fidell is a well-known critic of the American side of the war. It would be more of an embarrassment to Wuterich if Fidell sided with him this time.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 15:43, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

I really have no idea what this "embarassment" issue is; seemingly the Iraqis dead at his unit's hands are more emotionally relevant than a college professor's opinion.

Anyhow, NYT, the Times of London, AP, AFP, etc. being reliable sources, we have a pretty clear basis for this categorization. Rereading Category:Massacres ("This is a spectrum category. Although the title is Massacres, the category collects together events that can be described with a variety of names, and which cover a wide spectrum.") and Misplaced Pages:Category#Defining_characteristics ("A defining characteristic is one that reliable sources commonly and consistently define the subject as having"), it seems clear that the category belongs to this article.

Beware going too deep into WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT territory.--Carwil (talk) 16:01, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

For further consideration of the "common" use of the term, note that in recent articles indexed by Google News on Wuterich and the Haditha case we have and 969 with the term (search: haditha "massacre" wuterich) and 813 not including the term (search: haditha -"massacre" wuterich).--Carwil (talk) 16:04, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

The incident is emotionally relevant to me, too. But if it was that emotionally relevant to the critics and the Iraqis then one would think they'd have demanded the insurgents not start fights around civilians, particularly children. They haven't.

I've done those exact Google News searches. I think those without it are a better caliber of sources. But note that your search with "massacre" also includes those who quote somebody using the word, which is proper, but makes my point as well.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 18:07, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Not that this will change minds, but to show you what I mean about your search results, I did the search Google News just now, and examined the first 10 results for the haditha massacre wuterich search at the moment:

• an opinion piece by Marjorie Cohn.
• an opinion piece by a 22-year-old history junior.
• an AP story on a HuffPo that says "Wuterich has been falsely labeled a killer who carried out a massacre", and then later refers to the My Lai massacre.
• a photo story that says "accused of leading a 2005 massacre."
• an AP story on the Daily Mail that does use the word directly.
• the Daily Telegraph does use the word directly.
• CNN story that refers to "the 1968 Vietnam massacre at My Lai", but does not use the word for Haditha.
• a CSM story that does use the word for Haditha.
• an Al Jazeera YouTube video embedded into the results that (of course) does use the word quite a bit.
• an AP story at Time that only says "became known as the Haditha massacre."

That's two opinion pieces, four news articles that qualify the word correctly, and four that use the word directly. So, of the "969 with the term" that you found, keep in mind that about 60% (with an admittedly wide margin of error) don't count. Judging by the rate that they qualify the word "massacre" it's apparent that many news reporters are maintaining their own NPOV standards.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 22:09, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

The New York Times unequivocally describes this incident as a massacre. I do not see where in WP:RS "foreign newspapers" are excluded. You might have a point re "sell newspapers" if the headline was from a notorious headline sensationalizer like HuffPo but that's not the case here. re WP:BLP, tagging this article as a BLP is more than a little bit dubious... it strikes me as more than a little bit odd that Misplaced Pages should lose interest in the POV of the victims just because they are dead. In any case, WP:NPOV is described as a "pillar" of Misplaced Pages unlike WP:BLP and accordingly BLP is overruled by NPOV if there is a conflict, not the other way around. Why you want to take issue with this categorization while leaving a clear smear against a US serviceman like "order his men to shoot children in vehicles" stand in the article leaves me at a loss as to what your priorities are.--Brian Dell (talk) 06:01, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

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