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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Silverback (talk | contribs) at 11:32, 11 April 2006 (can you restore Rio Grande Foundation?). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Revision as of 11:32, 11 April 2006 by Silverback (talk | contribs) (can you restore Rio Grande Foundation?)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)

Hello, welcome to my talk page. To leave a new message, click here. Please try to keep it relatively organized by signing your posts, posting new topics on the bottom of the page, making relevant headings about your topic and using subheadings, not new headings, for replies. I will almost always reply on this page to messages. I reserve the right to make minor changes of formatting (headings, bolding, etc.) but not content in order to preserve the readablilty of this page. I will delete without comment rude and/or insulting comments, trolling, threats, comments from people with a history of insults and incivility, and comments posted to the top of this page. Also, I'm much more informal than this disclaimer implies. Thank you. Rock on.


Please SProtect Ted Kennedy

Hi! I'm advocating for an indefinite sprotect on the Ted Kennedy article. The vandalism by anons has been persistent and frankly quite hateful. The article is a magnet for this type of activity - activity that casts the Wiki

I'm sorry, I dislike the vandalism as well, but I don't think it is frequent enough to justify permanent or semi-permanent sprotection. Gamaliel 02:29, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Please reconsider. --AStanhope 18:19, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Thank you! --AStanhope 20:25, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Anon sock puppet

Hi, I noticed you've been tracking a sock puppet from Texas and John Kerry on your "todo" page -- I have copied your list and started adding to it, located at User:Stbalbach/anontexan. -- Stbalbach 01:48, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

I have only one account and when there's contention, I prefer to not log in. Also, from the best I can tell, others do share my IP from time to time, because it's dynamic. Also, I use a privacy software, so my IP does not always show up precisely right away. The privacy filter cannot be disabled - it's company policy - sorry. The best place to talk to me at any time is on the talk page of the article under discussion. Leave a diff link and if it was my edit, I'll reply. Also, Stbalbach is monitoring my edits. He must have nothing better to do. And, when I leave a comment for him on his talk page, he deletes it. The point here is that Stbalbach is making complaints because he disagrees with my edits. Take a look Pat Tillman and see that I worked with others and got resolution - Stbalbach did not. He's just bullying me. 192.168.185.76 01:57, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Why did you change the signature from 67.15.76.185 to 192.168.185.76? Gamaliel 02:34, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Above anon user modified the IP to make it appear they are coming from 192.168.185.76, see the page edit history. See also conversation at User talk:Will Beback. Thanks for any help or suggestions on how to deal with this problem. -- Stbalbach 02:25, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

John Hinckley Jr.

Why were the edits of John Hinckley Jr. reverted? I thought this was a place where neutral points of view were tolerated as long as there was ample evidence. Did you bother to look through the documentation? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.88.48.114 (talk • contribs)

Replied at Talk:John Hinckley, Jr. Gamaliel 02:36, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

That Kennedy-hating anon...

...vandalized my User page. I see that you warned him. Please block him now instead. --AStanhope 04:08, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm... He must be a sockpuppet of someone else. I haven't edited/reverted anything in the Kennedy article for appx. two weeks. Why would he come snipe me out of the blue like that? I dunno! --AStanhope 04:10, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Maybe he just followed you from here. He posted a rant here tonight which I deleted. Gamaliel 04:13, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
You're right. That's probably it. Thx. --AStanhope 07:42, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Robeson page

I was careful during the entire month of February not to revert anything by the two people monitoring the page who reverted daily nearly everything I added. Each day, I asked for explanations and at certain times, visited their pages asking for explanations. There is a long record of my asking them to document/explain their edits. They did not do so. They even deleted my comments on their pages, comments that were reasoned arguments, not personal attacks. They continued to revert, revert, revert. I concede that your viewpoint is sympathetic to theirs, and that is your right. I have played by the rules and have presented many arguments concerning documentation and have questioned the introduction of false and misleading information into the article. I am surprised that you stood on the sidelines during those requests for explanation of factual issues, and now, the first time I have used the revert tool, you choose to criticize me on the Robeson talk page, without coming to my user page to talk about it or to discuss constructive ways to make it a good article. You are an administrator but not neutral in this matter, Gamaliel. I understand these folks are your friends. Still, I would have hoped that you would have stepped in to stop the reverts when your friends were reverting during February and now into March. Let me ask you this. When people add nothing of substance to an article but erase the work of others, what is that but vandalism? skywriter 05:12, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

PS: It is noteworthy that Misplaced Pages community managed to produce a credible article on WEB DuBois but not Robeson and yet there are similarities in the lives of both men. Similar controversies are addressed there in a neutral manner, and not made central as is the insistence of some on the Robeson page. skywriter 05:33, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

My Lord, you have no idea how wrong you are. One of those people you call my "friends" is actually quite far from my pal. Read Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/TDC-2 and you will understand why this idea literally has me laughing right now. You are right, with the exception of rewriting the Feffer section once, I have largely stood on the sidelines, but that is because I am preoccupied with other matters and don't have the time to become more fully involved. You are wrong, however, when you say I am criticizing you for reverting. Revert away! Just stay within the bounds of WP:3RR. I commented politely when you referred to another editor's edit as "vandalism" in the edit summary. For me that is something of a "red flag" and I customarily step in and request civility when I see that, regardless of the article or the editors involved.
I think you have the potential to be an excellent Misplaced Pages editor and I hope that this Robeson mess does not discourage you. We need more people like you who are willing to get in the trenches and rewrite messy articles like this one, as opposed to people (who shall remain nameless) who use Misplaced Pages to refight the Cold War. However, you need to calm down. Flying off the handle and making accusations (in this case incredibly wrongheaded accusations) doesn't help you or the article. Be patient. Use RFC to recruit other editors. The historical facts will win out in the end. Gamaliel 05:36, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Happy to provide the laughter. February was my month for patience on the Robeson page. I tracked down and read the source material, and found it both falsified and wildly distorted in the service of a particular viewpoint. I documented this, asked for responses, and was ignored. The distortion and falsification of resources (the Rappaport book and the Rosenberg book and use even of the biography by Duberman) to bludgeon Robeson is dishonest, dealing a death blow to assume good faith. The Rosenberg book does not mention Robeson at all, except as a footnote citing and regurgitating with errors an article in Jewish Currents by Robeson's son, yet the Cold Warriors list the Rosenberg book as a Robeson resource, and for awhile, until I battled them word by word, phrase by phrase and sentence by sentence, it was listed as evidence of Robeson's association with treasonous folks. I wrote to Jewish Currents and obtained the article. The gist of that article is not as claimed in the Rosenberg book or in the Misplaced Pages article. March is a new month. The long winter of my patience with those who lie about source material is at an end. What I marked as vandalism was a reversal of documented content unexplained in the Edit Summary or Talk page, in other words, vandalism. Why is that incredibly wrongheaded? skywriter 18:34, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

PS: The individual with whom you tangled very recently introduced a lie onto the Wiki article on A People's History of the United States, saying the author, Zinn, blamed the U.S. for Japan's attack on Pearl, adding the additional false statement that "most" historians have discounted his view. Knowing this was invented, I asked for documentation, waited a week, then deleted it, noting the introduction of the falsehood. Again, these kinds of activities destroy the precept to assume good faith.

Cheers. skywriter 18:34, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

In principle, I agree, I just think you should keep a cooler head. It can be frustrating, I know. I had a long and frustrating struggle with TDC over the Pablo Neruda article, where he kept inserting ridiculous claims that Neruda was a KGB operative and editors were not stepping in to assist, despite the fact that the historical facts were clearly on my side. Many editors are reluctant to jump in headfirst into a contentious conflict when they don't have any background in the subject matter, and if you fly off the handle and start calling other editors vandals those neutral editors will think you are just as much of a pov pusher as those people you oppose. Gamaliel 18:45, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

JFK and RPJ

Thanks for the kind words. I will be happy to participate in the RfC on RPJ once it becomes live. My absence is not permanent, however, I just came back from a well needed vacation and will contribute suggestions to improve the articles here on Wiki. Ramsquire 17:34, 7 March 2006 (UTC)


I wonder what happened to the RfC on RPJ, he just seems to be getting worse. It's probably getting tiresome for you deleting all the personal attacks. Ramsquire 01:10, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't mind removing the attacks. I actually find it amusing in a perverse way.
The RfC never went "live" and isn't official yet. I've been putting off looking through old talk pages and documenting RPJ's attacks on me. If you feel that we have enough to go on as it, it can be launched now if you want. Gamaliel 01:20, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
I've added four instances where users have unsuccessfully tried to resolve issues with RPJ, including my last attempt. If that is enough, I think we should go live. Otherwise the edit-wars he is engaged in just won't go away. Ramsquire 01:39, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

How much longer do we need to put up with this...

This is the latest post from RPJ, in response to my concern over vandalism on the JFK assassination site and a request for protection to stop it. These personal attacks, and smugness need to be handled by wiki.

  • Ramsquire was so overwrought last week he left with a dramatic Edward R Murrow sign off. Now, he is back already asking the page be protected again. What is this going to be: A flurry of changes by Ramsquire and then freeze the page. Another flurry by Ransquire then freeze the page?
  • Ramsquire according to previous posts is an attorney. Is this the procedural game theory that paid advocates and paid PR personnel do for a living?
  • The web site has a few basic rules. Every significant viewpoint be represented. The assertions in the article be supported by references.
  • I have seen one approach where grafitti is put in an article and when the true believers in the Warren Report revert, it is with a notation of "vandalism" and a number of wrongful deletions are also made. Is this going to happen again?

RPJ 06:20, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

I know there is a RfC on this guy, but this is getting ridiculous and is destroying good faith attempts to create accurate and reliable articles.

Ramsquire 20:04, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm working on an NPOV edit on the JFK assassination article, section by section. I plan to submit the sections in a couple of days. Actually it's a pretty easy excercise. I'm removing any statements that are conjectural, speculative, or parrot a conspiracy web page. Most, if not all, of this stuff was added in the past by one particular editor..... cheers
Mytwocents 20:58, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

NPOV cleanup of JFK Assassination page

Here is a link to my section by section edit of the JFK-A page. I plan to upload it soon. I think it is a solid Neutral edit. I tried to include some mention of doubt about some of the different panels conclusions, to provide balance: but without the blockquotes and citations to historymatters.com...... http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User:Mytwocents/John_F._Kennedy_assassination&oldid=42921132

Mytwocents 04:49, 9 March 2006 (UTC)


Mytwocents

All you did was delete out viewpoints that you don't personaly agree with. That is against a basic web site rule.

The web site rule is that all significant view points are to be included. That is how the website achieves neutrality. The website holds itself out as containing all significant viewpoints and letting the reader make up his or her own mind.

If you don't want to participate in a web site that presents all significant view points you shouldn't

There are web sites you can go to and all you will read will be one viewpoint or two viewpoints. Since viewpoints with which you disagree bother you so much you should go to a one sided presentation.

But those aren't the rules at this web site. Please obey the rules.

RPJ 09:36, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

To what specifically does reader "RPJ" refer? Gamaliel 09:39, 9 March 2006 (UTC)


RPJ, why do you think the policy is "all significant viewpoints?" The policy is actually WP:V. Crackpot, unverified theories or theories from disreputable sources are not welcome or policy. See also Misplaced Pages:What Misplaced Pages is not (just figured I'd jump in) --Tbeatty 05:11, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Tbeatty makes a good point. RPJ has a slightly distorted view of what NPOV is meant to acomplish. We are to reach a consensus on what goes in the article, always trying for neutral, even-handed language and content. I'm willing to throw a bone to the conspiracy POV, but not 1/2 of every section of every page re. the JFK Assassination! That's giving too much weight to hearsay and conjecture. Mytwocents 06:07, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
My opinion is that JFK conspiracy theories are a separate category. An encyclopedia should cover them but not as the official record of events. It is very significant that so many conspiracy theories exist and has been kept alive for so long. But they don't belong in the factual account of events. The version that goes in the factual accounting is the official version supported by sworn testimony and verified facts. This is WP:V policy. --Tbeatty 18:34, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
To TBeaty and Gamaliel: Here is the web site policy that you think doesn't exist.

"The neutral point of view is a means of dealing with conflicting views. The policy requires that, where there are or have been conflicting views, these are fairly presented, but not asserted. All significant points of view are presented, not just the most popular one."

Please read the web site policies. Also, your comment about "crackpot, unverified theories from disreputable sources" must strike most readers as amusing. Most Americans (70%) believe there was a conspiracy to kill the president. The last official panel to review the matter in 1979 came to the conclusion that probably there was a conspiracy to kill Kennedy. Tbeaty needs to catch up on recent history before assuming theories are "crack pot."

RPJ 03:11, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Please add your comments to the end of discussions and don't stick them in the middle at random spots. Gamaliel 03:45, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
I know the policies pretty well. I am also familair with encyclopedias. Your data that "70% of Americans believe there was a conspiracy" is a valid point to put in the encyclopedia. But all the crackpot theories that they believe is not. I am sure that some believe it was Cubans or the Mafia or the Russians or the Republicans or the Democrats or the CIA or LBJ or Hollywood or Space Aliens or <insert crackpot conspiracy theory here>. But the facts are that Oswald killed Kennedy with a rifle that he purchased. He shot him him from the Book Depository. No serious news source or law enforcement group disputes that. That is the basis for a an encyclopedia entry. Fomenting controversy out of flimsy coincidences or even non-existent relationships is not the basis for an encyclopedia entry. --Tbeatty 04:17, 19 March 2006 (UTC)


"Gamaliel"

"Gamaliel" are you afraid of the information that is placed below? You took this out of the Oswald article and no reason was given?

Have you decided you don't want people to know about this?


Oswald's four months in New Orleans were carefully scrutinized by the HSCA that investigated later. It believed the testimony of witnesses that Oswald was with Dave Ferrie in Clinton La. in late August or early September 1963. The HSCA also noted that, on several occassions,

Oswald was seen up in the office of a man named Guy Bannister, by a secretary, (See, Official Congressional Document at the Link) - Bannister, along with Dave Ferrie, worked in connection with New Orlean's underworld figures and anti-Castro groups, (Official Congressional Document at the Link, Page 145), and was seen in the restaurant downstairs from Bannister's office several times where Ferrie and Guy Bannister used to frequent. Oswald worked nearby, and used the same small building that Bannister used as an address stamped on his Fair Play for Cuba Committee pamphlets. (Official Congressional Document at the Link 145-147) 544 Camp Street was also home to the anti-Castro Cuban Revolutionary Council and some researchers have suggested Oswald used the address to embarrass them. Either way, his work involving the Fair Play for Cuba Committee may have been little more than an effort to impress the Cuban government as a prelude to defecting there.


"Gamaliel" Don't be afraid of information. You will let your own fears trap you into uncomfortable positions. Try to open your mind and read the "prohibited" information that frightens you so much.

Once you do that and confront your fears, Your fears won't control you anymore.

Will your world come to an end if it turns out that Oswald worked for the CIA and they scapegoted him for the murder?

Would your belief system be traumatized to such a degree that you couldn't bear to live?

You should try to explain what drives you to a web site that has a wonderful policy of allowing information on all viewpoints regarding the subject matter and yet you won't abide by the rules and remove any items you don't personally approve.

Since you must know it is wrong, one would have to assume that either: 1)You are a highly compulsive person that can't control his own fears; 2) You want to be noticed, at any price. 3)You are a PR agent for an organization that is fearful of any mention of the JFK matter because of bad publicity to the organization. 4) You get a few buucks once in awhile from someone who has a vested interest.

RPJ 03:49, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Is it so hard for you to comprehend the idea that someone might disagree with you? Why must you resort to farfetched conspiracy theories and ridiculous amateur psychoanalysis? Why must you lash out in such a juvenile manner? Many, many people disagree with you. Are we all part of The Conspiracy? Gamaliel 04:01, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

New userbox!

You might like this one.

USFThis user attends or has attended
the University of South Florida.
Go Bulls!

Mike H. That's hot 11:04, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Socks of Shran/CantStandYa

FYI: Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Socks of Shran/CantStandYa -Will Beback 05:19, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

PS: It appears that this user is also known to you (on your "todo" page) as the "John Kerry sockpuppets". -Will Beback 23:45, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

More of TDC's "scholarship"

Heads up: Is there any chance you could get your hands on a copy of the text he cites, The World Was Going Our Way: The KGB and the Battle for the Third World (Andrew, Christopher; Mitrokhin, Vasili), through your library? Viajero | Talk 09:40, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

It appears to be on order at my library, so it will be a while before it shows up. Gamaliel 20:41, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
If you have an Amazon.com account, you can do a book search and a content search in the book if you do not have a copy or cannot find one at the library. I am like so stoked for this! Torturous Devastating Cudgel 01:54, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Epistle to the Romans

Hey Gamaliel... We haven't crossed paths much but I noticed your comment on Jbull's talk page. You can see some of what's gone on on the Romans page, my talk page (User_talk:Joshuagross) and his talk page (User_talk:Jbull). Other than a faux pas or two, I don't think I've done anything against wikipedia policy (I forgot to sign my name on his talk page the first time). I've gone out of my way to not generate conflict (instead of immediately editing articles I just asked him about it). Since you're an admin and have (seemingly) dealt with him (and presumably much worse), I just wanted to get your opinion on this, and advice on dealing with this sort of thing. Thanks! Joshuagross 22:05, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

I haven't had many dealings with Jbull - I think he's relatively new - but I'll be glad to have a look at the Romans article and see if I can offer any assistance. Gamaliel 22:16, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
Well, I'm "relatively" new to editing articles (March 4 I wrote my first) as well (or at least dealing with conflicts about them). That's why I ask for help - I don't want to cause any trouble before I really know what protocol is. Thanks again. Joshuagross 22:49, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Joe Scarborough

Hi! I've been assigned to help mediate the issues concerning this article, and want to invite you to begin the process by outlining your position on the issues more fully here. Much thanks! Fishhead64 18:18, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


Image Tagging Image:Somethingtoremembermadonna.jpg

Warning sign
This media may be deleted.

Thanks for uploading Image:Somethingtoremembermadonna.jpg. I notice the 'image' page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the copyright status is unclear. If you have not created this media yourself then there needs to be an argument why we have the right to use the media on Misplaced Pages (see copyright tagging below). If you have not created the media yourself then it needs to be specified where it was found, i.e., in most cases link to the website where it was taken from, and the terms of use for content from that page.

If the media also doesn't have a copyright tag then one should be added. If you created/took the picture, audio, or video then the {{GFDL-self}} tag can be used to release it under the GFDL. If you believe the media qualifies as fair use, consider reading fair use, and then use a tag such as {{fairusein|article name}} or one of the other tags listed at Misplaced Pages:Image copyright tags#Fair_use. See Misplaced Pages:Image copyright tags for the full list of copyright tags that you can use.

If you have uploaded other media, consider checking that you have specified their source and copyright tagged them, too. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Misplaced Pages page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that any unsourced and untagged images will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. feydey 02:27, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

What's the problem here? It's an album cover, which is pretty clear cut. Gamaliel 02:42, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

User blanking page question

Hi Gamaliel, I am approaching you because I know you are an admin. (The one other person I know of that is an admin is on vacation.)

I am concerned about the page blanking behavior of User 65.211.7.138 and don't know what to do about it. I would like to hear your suggestions. The user page suggests User 65.211.7.138 has been warned. Here's a sampling from the user's history: Today, User 65.211.7.138 (Talk) blanked http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=American_Civil_Rights_Movement_%281955-1968%29&diff=prev&oldid=44971885

User 65.211.7.138 (Talk) blanked the Martin Luther King page on November 8. http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Martin_Luther_King%2C_Jr.&diff=prev&oldid=27744762 Revision as of 18:15, 8 November 2005 65.211.7.138 (Talk) ? Older edit Revision as of 18:41, 8 November 2005 User:66.244.233.50 (Talk) Newer edit ? Line 11:

On September 29, User 65.211.7.138 (Talk) blanked the article on peacekeeping. Revision as of 17:24, 29 September 2005 66.244.233.50 (Talk) http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Peacekeeping&diff=prev&oldid=24331550

On September 16, user inserted racist comments into the article on Tiger Woods Revision as of 16:58, 16 September 2005 66.244.233.50 (Talk) http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Tiger_Woods&diff=prev&oldid=23350047

Thanks. skywriter 19:51, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I was going to revert it but it seems like this is more than juvenile vandalism. It is motivated. What are the options, beyond reverting? skywriter 20:06, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

These appear to be two different users since the addresses originate from two different countries. They both may have committed racist vandalism, but unfortunately we have no shortage of racist vandals coming to Misplaced Pages, so they are likely different people. Either way, if they keep at it the only solution is for me to block the IP address. The vandalism is troubling but is not yet severe or frequent enough IMO for a permanent or long term block on either address yet, but I will monitor both for a while. Gamaliel 20:09, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. skywriter 00:55, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

User talk:216.21.154.105

Hi,

This page has apparently been protected since July 2005. I thought that it was policy to only protect pages for as long as they were at serious risk of being repeatedly vandalized... perhaps time to unprotect it? No biggie if you want to keep it protected from editing for whatever reason; I just wanted to subst the templates on it.

Thanks, Hbackman 01:13, 24 March 2006 (UTC)


You're absolutely right, it's a protected page that I simply forgot about. I've unprotected it and subst-ed the templates. Thanks for bringing this to my attention. Gamaliel 02:37, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Cool. Thanks! :) Hbackman 02:40, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Michael Savage

I have amassed a large database of audioclips from the The Savage Nation talk show. I would like to offer them to interested parties by posting my e-mail on Misplaced Pages in the article section.

I have specialized in memorializing Savage's anti-Semitic rhetoric. I would like to post some of the most offensive quotations in the Wikiquote section. Could I send you the audioclips and the transcriptions by e-mail and you can confirm the accuracy of the transcription before posting the transcripts? Is it possible to host the actual audioclips on Misplaced Pages?

Thanks

Jeff Silberman Jeff@Silberman.com

Short audioclips can be posted on Misplaced Pages. I'm not sure of the process but there should be a page somewhere describing how to do it.
I don't think it would be appropriate for you to post your email address, but perhaps a link to a webpage of your own creation? Gamaliel 23:29, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

If I sent you the transcriptions and audioclips to confirm the accuracy, you won't post them for me? What is the function of an administrator? I'm sorta of a computer illiterate. Is there anyone out there who knows the process? I spent much time collecting these clips; I am hoping that someone might lend me a hand in posting them! Thanks.

I'm sorry, but posting audio files to Misplaced Pages is something I have no experience with. You might try the Misplaced Pages:Help desk. Gamaliel 05:13, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

3RR and George W. Bush

is that your way of saying that you're going to call in another person to make your 4th revert for you? sounds a lot like gaming the system to me--Capitalister 20:22, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Since you are a newer user, I am making sure you are aware of the rules. If other editors agree with me, that's not collusion, that's consensus, which is exactly how wikipedia is supposed to operate. If you feel that this issue needs the attention of other editors who may or may not agree with your position on this matter, I suggest you post at Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment. Gamaliel 20:26, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

George W. Bush talk page

Hi Gamaliel, just a quick question for you. Re your revert of the George W. Bush talk page to remove trolling, I was under the impression that "Deleting the comments of other users from article Talk pages, or deleting entire sections thereof, is generally considered vandalism." Is this not the case? Thanks in advance, Glen. §τοĿĿ€Ŗγč 08:02, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Removing trolling, vandalism, personal attacks, and other disruptive material is generally considered acceptable. Gamaliel 08:13, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
I guess trolling can be subjective though, which may be a point of contention... Regardless thanks for the reply, it is appreciated. §τοĿĿ€Ŗγč 08:18, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
You're right, it can be subjective, so such removals should only be done when the trolling is pretty obvious, to avoid arguments or edit wars about whether or not something actually is trolling. This case seemed pretty clear cut to me. Gamaliel 08:21, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

A small favor

I got blocked because of an anon IP complaint of 3RR. I don't think I violated and I think you know I follow the rules. I added content to Union of Concerned scientist. An anon user deleted three times. I considered it vandalism and invited him to discuss on talk page. In any case, I believe it is the fourth revert that causes trouble and I don't think you could call my first edit a "revert" since I didn't remove any information. I don't think the admin even reviewed the edits. tbeatty --143.183.121.4 04:57, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

There is an exception to the 3RR, but only in cases of simple vandalism. This was not a case of simple and obvious vandalism. It's clear from the nature of the edits and the edit summaries left by the anon that this was a content dispute, not vandalism. The anon should have discussed his changes on the talk page and I understand from experience it is frustrating to have your researched and sourced changes reverted by another editor, but while the anon's behavior was rude, it is also rude of you to describe a content dispute as vandalism. Gamaliel 10:28, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
I understand. I only reverted 3 times however. It is the fourth that is the violation and I was putting in a page protection request at the time. I was follwing the rules. tbeatty — Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.183.121.2 (talk • contribs)
It appears that you are correct, so I've unblocked you. In the future, if you are unjustly unblocked again, please provide links to the diffs which were incorrectly reported as reverts. Gamaliel 00:03, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Thanks! You're unblock didn't actually work (the IP was blocked for some reason). The admin who blocked realized the mistake and fixed it. Thanks for your help.--Tbeatty 05:44, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Oops, I forgot about the autoblocker. When someone's username gets blocked manually the autoblocker kicks in and blocks the IP address too, and you have to unblock that seperately. Sorry about that! Gamaliel 05:57, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
No worries. I think I have my first wikistalker out of it. It's an anon AOL IP. Follows me around, reverts my edits. He left a vague threat on my talk page which I edited out. --Tbeatty 08:20, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Such vandals are par for the course here. Check out the history of this page for a particularly nasty example. Not much can be done about these sorts of idiots, unfortunately. Gamaliel 08:32, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
That 'vauge threat' is pointing out that he's clearly editing from an unsecured open proxy for some reason, the vandalism that you keep reffering to is my daring to revert him--205.188.117.5 11:48, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
See what I mean?--Tbeatty 14:45, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
See what I mean scfwpr02.sc.intel.com, registered to the Intel Corporation, an open port, on a privately owned network, being exploited by an anonymizing proxy--205.188.117.5 15:20, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
If you feel this is a matter of concern, please bring it up at WP:AN. Gamaliel 19:11, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Sir_Shibby

Good Morning,

I was wandering if i can put an article up about 'Shibby' which i Have adopted as an alias. I have enough people asking me what Shibby means, and it would be incrediably usefull if i can just say 'Look on Misplaced Pages'. Anyway, if you would be so kind as to reply to Sir_Shibby@hotmail.com. Thanks in Advance,

Ed Shibby

Please see Misplaced Pages:Notability for our guidelines on whether or not such an article would be appropriate. Gamaliel 19:10, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Hebrew/Aramaic transliterations and etymologies

Hey Gamaliel. User:Haldrik is adding transliterations and etymologies of Hebrew/Aramaic words that seem to contradict others I've seen. Since you're an expert in this, I'm hoping you can provide some insight. Would you mind taking a look? You can find them at Jesus#Names and Yeshua. Jayjg 18:45, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

I am? Are you thinking about some other editor? Despite my username, I don't know any Hebrew. Gamaliel 19:02, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, my mistake, I was thinking of User:Gilgamesh. Jayjg 19:25, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks...

...for the help on the Jay Kinney article. Another wiki user almost had deleted it before I could even get all the info in there! When I noticed a deficiency in the Misplaced Pages on the subject of underground cartoonists, I decided to try to build up a "underground cartoonists" category. I'd appreciate your help and/or advice! You can respond on my discussion page if you like.

Thanks Zoinksjeepster

Editing tools?

Hi! Do you know of any editing tools for wikipedia? Either external linked editor like emacs or form based for things like sources. Something that does wiki formatting/tagging. --Tbeatty 01:28, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Some editors use them and there are some WP pages about them that I've seen, but I've never used them. I'm still doing everything manually over here. Gamaliel 01:33, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

?

why did you delete my valuable time infused article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by JohnJacobs (talk • contribs)

See Misplaced Pages:Notability. Gamaliel 03:05, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

In regard to your distrafuge, i am VERY frustrated with the fact that you deleted my time infused article not once, but TWICE. Is this how you honor and reward the hard work of Users who contribute time and effort to further the expanse of this great resource? Misplaced Pages should have its rules and should rest on a high standard of truth and honesty. I displayed both of these. My contribution was both factual and equally significant. Its place among the pages of this resource is without a doubt a necesity. My article has not been able to come to fruition all because of you. I would appreciate it if you would step off of my turf and witness what I can do. Im assuming you dont have a damn clue about the person that is Tyler Mullinax, maybe if you got off of Misplaced Pages and put away this purist crap, I could get on to making my article and you could sit there, read it, take it all in, and discover its true worth and validity. You could discover Tyler Mullinax. I ask you to simply leave me alone and let me go about my work.

with fading respect,

John Jacobs

Tyler Mullinax is barely known to the outside world; therefore, Gamaliel sees no need for Misplaced Pages to have an article about Tyler Mullinax. If you could demonstrate that Tyler Mullinax should be more widely known, perhaps due to a significant recent event, please do so and Gamaliel may reconsider. Algebra 03:37, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

National Security Archive

Why did you revert my edit on National Security Archive? --Tbeatty 03:48, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I left a message on your user talk page explaining your inappropriate use of copyright material. Gamaliel 04:25, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
It certainly wasn't inappropriate. It was a fair use extract, it was cited and it conformed to the web sites use policies. Copyright infringments cannot be fixed by quotes. It is ompossibble to plagiarize facts. Further, your decision to revert 3 separate edits (only one which you had issue) was not justified. Below is the policy. NExt time, please leave a message on the talk page. Also, since you seem to be folowing me around wikipedia for some reason, I would request that you defer rv'ing edits to other administrators as you seem to have taken a personal interest in my edits. I don't mind it on pages where we have both have histories of edits, but it's getting a little ridiculous.

4.3 If you find a copyright infringement It is not the job of rank-and-file Wikipedians to police content for possible copyright infringement, but if you suspect one, you should at the very least bring up the issue on that page's talk page. Others can then examine the situation and take action if needed. The most helpful piece of information you can provide is a URL or other reference to what you believe may be the source of the text.

Some cases will be false alarms. For example, if the contributor was in fact the author of the text that is published elsewhere under different terms, that does not affect their right to post it here under the GFDL. Also, sometimes you will find text elsewhere on the Web that was copied from Misplaced Pages. In both of these cases, it is a good idea to make a note in the talk page to discourage such false alarms in the future.

If some of the content of a page really is an infringement, then the infringing content should be removed, and a note to that effect should be made on the talk page, along with the original source. If the author's permission is obtained later, the text can be restored.

If all of the content of a page is a suspected copyright infringement, then the page should be listed on Misplaced Pages:Copyright problems and the content of the page replaced by the standard notice which you can find there. If, after a week, the page still appears to be a copyright infringement, then it may be deleted following the procedures on the votes page.

In extreme cases of contributors continuing to post copyrighted material after appropriate warnings, such users may be blocked from editing to protect the project.

I did leave a message on your talk page explaining to you why your edit was problematic. Why should I have left a second message for you on another page? I have never even heard of the Archive and I have no interest in editing the article or taking issue with your content edits. My problem is with taking a quote and passing it off as original writing. I would object to this from any editor on wikipedia. I don't believe this is an intentional offense, you just seem to be confused about the nature of fair use and how to properly use fair use material. In this case you took word for word three sentences from a copyrighted web page and did not identify them as such. Citing is not sufficient, as all a cite does is identify the source of facts, it does not identify the material as unoriginal, copyrighted work. Even with works that are clearly in the public domain, the source of the material is identified, not with a cite, but with a clear notice saying "Material in this article is taken from ****". See Category:1911 Britannica for articles that have such notices. I'm sorry you feel that I've been giving you a bit too much attention, but you can see from my talk page archives and edit history I have been similarly strict in all such cases I have noticed. And I never would have noticed this had a complaint not been left on your talk page. Gamaliel 06:12, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
It is not an offense. What you have cited is a "Style Guide", not a requirement (and a "Style guide" only for public domanin encyclopedias). I think you need to review Fair Use, Copyright and Plagiarism. I think you agree it is Fair Use. That means it cannot be a Copyright problem. Attributing the source is adequate for fair use. If it were a copyright issue, putting quotes around it does not fix the copyright (i.e. Fair Use) issue. Putting the "Material in this article is taken from ****". would not fix a copyright violation. Putting that disclaimer would not make something Fair Use if it otherwise weren't. The boilerplate is a courtesy and style guide. Certainly it is not sufficient to rever a page over. Coyright violations are legal issues, not style issue. They cannot be fixed with boilerplates, quote marks or other punctuations.
Secondly, plagiarism does not apply to facts. If what you say is true, then every quote that is lifted from a newspaper would need to be attributed. Newspaper A quoted person B as saying "blah blah blah". That is certainly not the case. IT is adequate enough to duplicate the quote and attribute it. This is the correct way. Facts are not plagiarizable. Please look up Plagiarism. Misplaced Pages is a tertiary source of facts. It needs to cite the location of facts. Lifting three sentences of undisputed fact is not plagiarism especially when a citation is provided. For example, The Sky is Blue. If the orginal sentence in the is "The Sky is Blue", it is not plagiarism. It's cited as fact, not as an idea or expression. If the original phrase is: The sky looked like it was made of marshmellows, then it would need quote marks. Please learn the difference so that you don't revert properly extracted and cited material.

One other interesting case if you are on a plagiarism/copyright kick. Go to here and look at the listPlagiarism#Why_plagiarism_occurs. And then go to and look at the list of 'Why do students plagiarize' . They are identical except for the last tag at the bottom of the Wiki list (which lends me to believe it was plagiarized). There is no citation at either site for a study. --Tbeatty 17:48, 3 April 2006 (UTC)


Also, I noticed a lot of your latest contributions are to albums. Often the Album page has a track list. These lists are identical to the lists on the Album. It is not plagiarism by my definition as it is attributed. But according to your standard that you have outlined above, all of these albums are lacking quote marks or other notificaiton that they were lifted from the album cover. --Tbeatty 18:26, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

You just aren't listening. The issue is not with your use of facts. It is with you copying word for word exactly the sentence which conveys these facts.

Your contribution: "The National Security Archive was founded in 1985 by a group of journalists and scholars who had obtained documentation from the U.S. government under the Freedom of Information Act and sought a centralized repository for these materials."

The NSA homepage: "The National Security Archive was founded in 1985 by a group of journalists and scholars who had obtained documentation from the U.S. government under the Freedom of Information Act and sought a centralized repository for these materials."

You could have easily conveyed these same facts in your own words. To not do so and to not identify these words as non-original is plagiarism. Gamaliel 19:27, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I heard you fine. Word for word is not plagiarism if it is cited and factual. Look at the definition of plagiarism. You are mistaken. First you said it was copyright which it clearly is not. Now you say it is plagiarism which it clearly is not because a) I cited it and b) it is fact. I never represented it as my own ideas. You need to refresh what plagiarism is and what copyright is because you are clearly confusing the two. From the entry on plagiarism: "The use of mere facts, rather than works of creative expression, does not constitute plagiarism. For the latter, the issue of public domain works versus copyrighted works is irrelevant to the concept of plagiarism." By using a small excerpt, copyright infringement is avoided and by citing and using only facts, plagiarism is avoided. They are two separate issues. Again, I refer you to your latest work of copying play lists from copyrighted album covers. It is "word for word". And a lot times it is unattributed. This is not a violation of either the copyright or plagiarism but if I apply your convoluted and unique interpretation, it would be.
Generally, rewording is a far more graver form plagiarism as it attempts to hide the ideas and expression of someone else as your own. It is a much better practice to copy and attribute than it is to reword.
A citation identifies the source of facts in the sentence, not that the sentence itself is unoriginal. The energy you spend defending your plagiarism you could spend writing original sentences. Gamaliel 20:00, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
A sentence of only fact is not plagiarizable. This is fundamental. I am not defending plagiarism at all. I am trying to educate you so that you don't continue to make the same mistake. --Tbeatty 20:10, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Copying a sentence of someone else word for word is plagiarism, whether or not that sentence contains facts, opinions, poetry, or prose. That sentence is not merely plain fact, it is the presentation of fact. You can present those facts in any number of original ways, and you have copied not just those facts, but the exact presentation of those facts. Gamaliel 22:03, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Please show me the policy or guideline for this "plagiarism of the expression of cited facts" to justify the revert. I am unaware of this policy. I would even appreciate a link that supports your view of plagiarism. --Tbeatty 23:11, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
"My view" of plagiarism? You copied something word for word. Just because that sentence contains facts does not give you license to copy it and stick it in an article as if you wrote it. Gamaliel 04:20, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
I did no such thing. I cited it. I never claimed it as my own. Show me the policy where cited facts cannot be copied word for word. --Tbeatty 16:33, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Yes, you did. That may have not been your intent, but that was the end result. As I have repeatedly explained to you, you have not merely just "cited facts". You could have easily expressed those facts in any number of ways besides copying a sentence word for word. The fact that you copied word for word without putting it in quote marks makes it plagiarism. Gamaliel 20:10, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Okay, assume you are correct. Cite the plagiarism policy. I doubt you will be able to find one simply because you can't plagiarize facts and that's what Misplaced Pages is. --Tbeatty 21:49, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
That is because, despite your attempts to frame this as a matter of facts, I am not talking about just facts, but your copying of the exact word for word presentation of those facts. Gamaliel 21:52, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Cite the policy that I violated to support the revert. --Tbeatty 22:16, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages:Citing sources. Unless you have something new to add, I really don't think I should waste any more time explaining to you that plagiarism is against our rules. Gamaliel 23:01, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
A) I cited my source and B) it wasn't plagiarism. The fact that I cited my source and you don't dispute that takes us full circle. Your Misplaced Pages:Citing sources cite means you RV'd my edit for a "Style Guide" interpretation. Please stop accusing me of plagiarism. You have not been able to show how a cited extract of facts constitutes any kind of wikipedia violation. --Tbeatty 23:36, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry you don't like it, but all you have to do to avoid plagiarism is to credit your source properly with the use of quotation marks, hardly an onerous task. You can believe that your "just facts" interpretation allows you to copy word for word whatever you want without distinguishing it as unoriginal work, but I will continue to remove from WP articles any plagiarism that I see. Gamaliel 04:21, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
I can tell you that if you are caught taking sentences word-for-word, even if it is cited, at most universities then profs would mark that as an honor violation because they consider it plagiarism. In fact, there are style manuals on it. The sad part is if you don't cite it then you're less likely to get caught. In the world of scholarship it's done to create an atmosphere of original thought (or at least the attempt to make an origional thought) where individuals take pre-existing knowledge and add their own interpretations, anaylsis, and thoughts to it rather than just regurgitating what you read somewhere else without using your brain. I wouldn't exactly consider Wiki scholarly but it attempts to be. --Strothra 01:22, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages is the exact opposite. Original thought is against policy. Misplaced Pages want no original thought, interpretation or analysis. This is exactly why there is no policy on plagiarism because it simply can't exist given the restrictions. --Tbeatty 02:11, 5 April 2006 (UTC)


Thank you Gamaliel for your support on this issue. Tbeatty's edits are poorly researched and seem to only be the result of very poor interpretations of the NSArchive's website. This is an organization which I have been personally involved with and would appreciate it if you watch the article for a while.--Strothra 21:53, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/User:Daniel Brandt

I notice you closed this MfD as "delete", but you only deleted the legal threats on the userpage. I'm not critising you or anything (in my opinion the quicker we get rid of his threats the better), but if I were you I would delete the whole page to remove the legal threats from the history (and anyway, it's Miscellany for deletion, not for blanking :-P). If you don't want to get involved any more then I'm fine to delete it myself, just let me know. Cheers, — FireFox • T

I'm not sure I see the point of deleting it, but I have no objection if someone else does. Gamaliel 19:28, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Well for starters, as I said, it's "Miscellany for deletion", and secondly it will remove legal threats from the history, and Brandt can easily make a new page if he wishes. If you don't object I'll probably delete it in the next hour or so. — FireFox • T

Stardust (song) recording

Can you determine which recording of "Stardust" was selected for the national artchive that you've mentioned? --Wetman 17:10, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Good point, I should specify in the article. Thanks for pointing that out. Gamaliel 17:14, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Edit summaries

You almost never use edit summaries; could you start please? They're a courtesy to other editors.

Incidentally, you've been placing categories in the middle of articles; I'm sure that this is a slip, but could you make sure that they go to the end of the articles? --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 08:56, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that's a fair characterization. I've been doing a lot of recent editing to albums where most of these edits were minor, adding a link here and there. When you add the same link to 500 articles, you get a little tired of typing in the same thing into the edit summary box. I do try to leave edit summaries on all major edits. Gamaliel 16:40, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

I usually cut and paste when I have a lot of similar/identical edits to make. I know that it's a bit of a pain, but think what it's like for someone like me who sees a list of edits with no descriptions on their Watchlist. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 18:41, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

can you restore Rio Grande Foundation?

Only one paragraph was copied from there. It was a piece of their mission statement that was merely descriptive. I doubt that would qualify as a copyright violation. However, if it would help, once restored I would adjust it so that the information is cited as a quote from their mission statement. We quote copyrighted material all the time under "fair use". I really think whoever did this was not probably interpreting what a copyright violation is.--Silverback 11:32, 11 April 2006 (UTC)