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Lists

A recent change to List of Middle-earth Men brings up a question about how to handle long lists. That page had anchor tags ('<div id=') for each name, but these have been changed into titles ('===') for several of them. I think we should use one method consistently and would like to discuss which that should be. I originally used titles on List of Hobbits, but then changed that to the anchor points for cleaner formatting. Also, what's the difference between this 'Standards' page and the new Middle-earth_Style_Guide link on the main project page? Should these be combined? --CBDunkerson 13:31, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I was not aware of the this page. Well, just have the /Standards be the Middle-earth Style Guide page so we can delete the latter. I like the idea of using titles because then we are still able to link the minor characters' descriptions as where else we use the Hobbits format, then we're not. —Mirlen 13:34, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure what you mean. Anchor tags provide the same linking capability as titles. For instance List_of_Hobbits#Gorbadoc goes directly to Gorbadoc Brandybuck on that page. The titles format would add links in the 'table of contents', but with a long list of names I'm not sure we want that - an 'alphabet' TOC can take users to specific sections without listing everything in a long box at the top. The only other difference between the two methods which I can think of is that titles forces the name to be a separate header while the anchor tags can be anywhere, allowing the names to be shown as headers or inline with the rest of the text. --CBDunkerson 13:40, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
Eh, never mind then. I wasn't aware of that linking process. *feels stupid* Well, I guess using the alphabet would be cleaner. Alright, then, let's have the lists follow the alphabet format, like the Hobbits page. Also concerning this, could you respond to the splitting proposal concerning the Middle-earth Men list here?
Also, I was hoping to set up this page like Misplaced Pages's Manual of Style page, so is it alright if this talk is archived after we've decided the standards for articles/list so we can set it up like the Manual of Style page, like a Guide after the discussion. What do you think? —Mirlen 13:45, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
Sounds good to me. BTW, there are links to prior discussions for the items already on the standards page. If we want to change any of those discussion can go on the basic talk page as you suggest. --CBDunkerson 13:52, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, cool. So now that the list standards is discussed, how about the...? (Make sure to respond to the splitting proposal. I just want some feedback before I start ahead.) —Mirlen 14:01, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Articles

Standards for articles. How do we want the sections to go and everything? —Mirlen 14:00, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, for the most part I think we can follow the primary manual of style on that. The only layout issues I can think of would be whether and where we want to use 'spoiler' warnings (I don't think we need them - story is fifty years old) and how we want to handle situations where there are different versions of the story. Prior discussion of the latter resulted in the {{Mecanon}} template to specify that the main article assumes one version and other variants are explained at the bottom of the article. However, that has recently been disputed by some at Talk:Middle-earth canon with a suggestion that all variations be given equal weight and be discussed together. So, instead of the lead saying 'Gil-Galad was the son of Orodreth' with a link to explanations at the bottom of the page we'd have several paragraphs towards the top tracing the dozen or so different parentages Tolkien considered for Gil-galad, why Christopher chose Fingon as his father in The Silmarillion, and how Christopher later concluded that this was an error and it should have been Orodreth instead. Note that currently the article only covers the two 'most common' versions rather than giving equal weight to other ideas Tolkien had at some point... such as that Gil-galad was Feanor's grandson. I can't think of any other 'layout' issues offhand. --CBDunkerson 12:10, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Well there are some variations concerning headings in character articles. In some articles, they have a seperate appearance section and names/titles section. Couldn't the appearance section somehow be merged within the character's history and the names/titles in a trivia section? Also, what do you think of placing leadoff quotes on the beginning of the page to spice up the articles a bit :)? —Mirlen 02:09, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
Also, concerning tenses. Should the articles be in past or present tense. There seems to be a variation between that. —Mirlen 23:28, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Never mind, found the discussion and so we are doing it in past tense. —Mirlen 21:49, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Family Tree Templates

There also seems to be inconsistency in family line/trees templates.

Examples of different styles:

Which style shall we settle on? I like the Elendil-style, but the Tookclan is more Tolkien-format and easier, so yeah...And also, instead of attaching the famiy tree to each character's article (which takes up space), I think, what would be better and is more commonly done, is to have a 'See also' section and put the link of article describing their family line/house. —Mirlen 23:42, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Overall I like the 'Tookclan' style best. The 'graphical' format recently implemented on Elendil and some other trees is interesting, but seems to generally take up more space and allow for less flexibility in notes and commentary. --CBDunkerson 01:42, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. I experimented with the graphical format...like you've said, it takes way too much space—and there were some family members I had to cut down when I experimented to get it to a suitable size. —Mirlen 04:17, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Character disambiguation

If there is one or two more other characters in Middle-earth with the same name, should we have a disambiguation page? —Mirlen 04:33, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm. Probably depends on the situation. If there are multiple minor characters with the same name, 'Galdor' for instance, then I think they could all be included on the same page together. However, in cases where one character is more prominent than the others, such as 'Boromir', I think it makes sense to have the main page on that character with a disambiguation line at the top to the pages of other characters with the name. --CBDunkerson 12:02, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Referencing Middle-earth

At least we should change all references to Middle-earth as a fictional universe, since it's part of Tolkien's version of our ancient Earth, which would be Arda. -- Uthanc 06:46, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

I've seen this changed back and forth between 'universe', 'world', 'stories', 'legendarium', 'mythology', et cetera. Middle-earth was originally the name of a land mass and then used more generally for the whole Earth. However, Tolkien's stories also incorporated explanations of the whole universe (Ea) and the 'Timeless Halls' beyond. I don't have a particular preference, but agree we should try to keep the articles consistent. --CBDunkerson 11:52, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. Either Fictional universe or fantasy universe. —Mirlen 22:59, 22 March 2006 (UTC) —Mirlen 21:33, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
I was thinking, perhaps saying legendarium would be better. —Mirlen 21:52, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Referencing the books

Is there a standard for how to reference the books? Is this applied uniformly across the articles? As there are only a limited number of books by Tolkien that are likely to be referred to, could these be listed somewhere in a standard format so that people know how to reference them? As for page numbers being different across different editions, probably the best way to deal with that is to leave blank spaces for people to fill in the publisher/publication date/page numbers for the particular book they are referring to. Carcharoth 23:58, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, once you take out the Publisher name, location, publication year, ISBN, and page range there isn't really much left except the book title and author. Some example book citations are;
A list like this might be useful for cases where the printing/page number don't matter. CBDunkerson 00:55, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
Do you know which ones have the same page numbers in different editions and printings? And what should we do with the other ones where the page numbers can vary? At the very least, all references in a single article, to the same source, should use the same edition and page numbers. And this should be made clear in any standard. All my references will be to books published by HarperCollins in the UK. Shall I just start adding some and see how it goes, or shall I wait until a standard has been thrashed out? It might also help to see what the standard of referencing is so far. You and others will probably have a better idea of that than me. Carcharoth 01:23, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
PS. Shouldn't the History of Middle-earth references mention Christopher Tolkien as well as JRRT? Carcharoth 01:24, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
Yes, there is a separate parameter for 'editor' (as used on Letters). Oversight. As to your question about page numbering; All printings/editions of Letters thus far have the same page numbering, but it is that 'thus far' which is the problem. There was a time when there were only two different numbering schemes for LotR... now there are dozens. The HoME texts used to have only one numbering scheme, but a couple of years ago they came out with the 'omnibus' editions that combined several HoME volumes together (and sometimes left out chunks of material). Thus, it is usual practice to cite the version of the text being referred to. The MoS actually suggests use of references to multiple different versions, but I agree that we should standardize wherever possible. However, the only way to do that is to have someone go through and adjust to a single version. In most cases I'd suggest a first edition hardcover from Allen & Unwin / HarperCollins or Houghton Mifflin... as those printings always used the same page numbering as each other. For LotR I'm tempted to instead suggest the 50th anniversary edition due to the meticulous corrections. Still, that volume isn't widely used so it likely makes sense to stay with the old A&U/HMCO three volume hardbacks that are much more common. --CBDunkerson 01:43, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
So I think it sounds like the guidelines should be: (1) Reference the text you have in front of you (simplest); (2) Use the standard reference if possible - if not, someone will eventually fix the reference; (3) Refer to <this list> for examples of citation style and books that are commonly referenced.
I have a copy of the 50th edition of LotR. I only have one complete three-volume set of LotR (though a few single volumes from different publishers and dates knocking around). I have a complete set of the History of Middle-earth volumes, and Letters and Biography. That should be enough to get by for now.
Two things I am confused about are: (a) the order of the Notes/References/External Links/See Also sections - I looked at the Manual of Style, but they seem to give a different order to what many articles use (including the Tolkien article). Which order is correct? (b) Whether to use the Footnote3 method (used at Timeline of Arda) or another template method or the php cite method given at Misplaced Pages:Footnotes (used in Tolkien)? I think the last one is the recommended one. Carcharoth 02:39, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
I too, was confused on the other of the whole References/See also/Trivia. This is the order I see often:
  1. Trivia
  2. See also
  3. References - A lot of articles have Notes/References merged due to a new format, which I like better than the old one.
  4. External links
For footnotes, this style (the example I'm showing has Good Article status) seems to be the most recent and adapted one.
 After sentence that needs referencing, 
 insert this code: <ref name="subject">Insert reference here.</ref>
 In References, insert this code: 
 <div style="font-size: 90%">
 <references />
 </div>
—Mirlen 21:59, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Note that <ref> is good enough in most cases. The <ref name="whatever"> format creates a 'whatever' anchorpoint which can be linked to using wikimarkup such as ]. Only really useful if you want to be able to 'jump' to that reference from other parts of the article (or other articles entirely) rather than just from the 'references' list itself. --CBDunkerson 22:56, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
True, but if you have lots of references, it might be useful. :) —Mirlen 00:34, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Left aligning. The standard order of sections is 'See also - References - External links' per WP:GTL. I suppose 'Trivia' could go above that or at the bottom like 'Quotations'. --CBDunkerson 14:26, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks CBD, fixed the order above. I would say to list Trivia before References section in the very least, since misc. information sometimes require sources. —Mirlen 11:17, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Templates

Please see {{ME-lang}}, {{ME-date}}, and {{ME-ref}} and let me know what you think. The third one for references is incomplete, but you should be able to get an idea of how it will work from the example shown. The general idea with all three is to provide a standardized format for commonly used items (languages, dates, and book references) which is also shorter than typing the full wiki-markup. For instance,

  1. {{ME-ref|10}}
  2. ] (1993). ] (ed.) '']'', Boston & New York: ]. ISBN 0-395-68092-1.
  3. {{cite book|author=J. R. R. Tolkien|authorlink=J. R. R. Tolkien|editor=] (ed.)|year=1993|title=]|location=Boston & New York|publisher=]|id=ISBN 0-395-68092-1}}

Each of those three forms produces identical text, but the first is obviously the easiest to use. The '10' is because Morgoth's Ring is the 10th book in the History of Middle-earth series. When completed the template will also accept 'MR', 'Morgoth's Ring', and likely other options to display the same result. Examples of this sort of 'abbreviation list' can be seen on the two completed templates. --CBDunkerson 16:25, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Wow! Just what I was looking for. Thanks for this. Looks great. When will they be ready to use... :-) Carcharoth 21:03, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I can never remember, are these templates meant to be used as active templates or substituted templates? Also, will it be possible to use "what links here" to get a list of all articles using that reference - ie. not just the template, but generating a list of all articles that reference volume 10 of HoME?

And the date template - is it possible to get the date to link to a page that lists everything we know happened in ME that year - much like the way clicking on a Misplaced Pages date gets a page showing what happened that year? Or is that difficult to maintain?

And the language template - I was wondering if it could be incorporated into the character infoboxes somehow, so that instead of Sam's Westron name appearing under the heading "other names", it appears under a heading "Westron". Carcharoth 21:12, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Heh. Ok, let's see. These templates should be transcluded rather than substituted (substitution doesn't work well with conditional templates like these and if something is substituted you can't track it on 'What links here' or make universal format updates). The way the references template is currently set up you would not be able to get 'What links here' for each book. That could be done by changing it into multiple templates; 'ME-ref/10', 'ME-ref/The Hobbit', et cetera which could then each be checked with 'What links here' for just that book. That'd be alot of different templates (especially if we want to allow users to select '10' / 'MR' / 'Morgoth's Ring' for one book - the extras could be redirects, but still alot of pages).
For the dates, yes it could be changed to jump to a 'Middle-earth <age> <year>' page when the year is clicked. Since we don't have such pages currently and many years would have very sparse contents I might suggest jumping to the appropriate section of Timeline of Arda for now. Would require 'id' links to be added to that article.
Finally, on the languages - the 'ME-lang' template could currently be called within the 'other names' parameter of the Infobox. Making it show 'Westron', 'Quenya', et cetera would require changes to the infobox template itself and might be complicated since some characters have multiple names in the same language (e.g. Artanis / Alatariel / Nerwen... aka Galadriel). --CBDunkerson 21:41, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
To quote Carcharoth, "Wow! Just what I was looking for." Again, I love the idea. Thanks for making them, this will help with making Tolkien articles uniform. Also, on the ME-lang box, was that to be placed on top of the article for name translations, or is that a different thing? —Mirlen 00:00, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Yes, the language template grew out of this discussion. Basically just suggesting that rather than putting {{ME-lang}} after every use of a Tolkien language word we only do it once, for the article subject at the top of the article. This can be seen in practice on the Nunduinë article. --CBDunkerson 00:18, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Just an update - These templates are now ready to go 'live'. The ME-ref template has a good sized list of books and I'll expand it with more in the next few days. I'm interested in feedback on the versions of each book currently listed and options that could/should be used instead. The talk page there might be good for discussion of what the standard versions should be. Also there may be different ideas for the abbreviation list - I think the ones I've got in there currently make sense, but there is plenty of room to add more. --CBDunkerson 01:33, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I've added comments over on that talk page. One template I discovered recently is Template:fact, which I am considering slapping all over Tolkien articles to try and point out the stuff that is obscure enough to need references (or should we try and reference everything). Might it be a bit rude to use this template, though? Carcharoth 08:46, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Wonderful templates, CBD! Not rude, Carcharoth, so don't worry. It's just saying that the statement needs referencing. —Mirlen 11:50, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
In reference to the 'fact' template - I'd suggest using it sequentially. That is, don't just put in a 'citation needed' note every time you see a fact in need of references. Doing so could wind up with dozens of such notes in many articles which then sit around for months before being cleaned up. Instead, we could have an open list somewhere here on the project page of 'articles needing citations'... limit it to ten or so articles and don't add 'fact' templates to new pages until some of the ones on the current list have been cleaned up. As to what to reference - I'd say that general information can be covered by listing 'The Hobbit', 'The Lord of the Rings' and/or 'The Silmarillion' at the top of the references section and then only having specific reference links for facts from other texts or those which are often over-looked in the primary texts. --CBDunkerson 13:04, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Ditto to CBD's words. Things that'd need referencing are probably anything from the HoME books, I'd have to say (i.e. information on earlier drafts of the legendariam, etc.) — which would, most of time, should be in the Trivia section. —Mirlen 15:14, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Referencing the Encyclopedia of Arda

I've seen quite a few references to "The Encyclopedia of Arda" (EoA) in various articles, and I feel quite strongly that all references should be to Tolkien's original books and writings, which will be where the EoA got their references from (if they have them).

Can we make it a standard that it is OK to check stuff at EoA, and to put external links to them, but to encourage the use of primary sources (Tolkien's books), instead of other encyclopedias? Carcharoth 08:43, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I 100% agree. —Mirlen 11:49, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Ditto. At some point we should make a concerted effort to check EoA info and pull out references to it. Note that some of those references are because text was actually copied from EoA. While it is generally a good resource it does contain errors and in any case I think we should be using original wording for our articles. --CBDunkerson 12:57, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Which reminds me, we should have some sort of compilation of a list (not a literal one created) on the 'Things to do' page on articles that list the Encyclopedia of Arda as a reference. —Mirlen 15:17, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Not quite sure I understand what you mean by "not a literal one created"? Carcharoth 20:17, 15 April 2006 (UTC)