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• Voluntary RfAs after resignation
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• Should comments made using LLMs or chatbots be discounted or even removed?

IP range from Wichita spamming Talk pages with illogical barnstars and creating other vandalism.

To vote on a solution for this problem you can leave your feedback at this page.

66.87.2.33, 66.87.0.115, 66.87.2.119, 66.87.2.2 and 23 other IP addresses in the same range, apparently the same person, has, since March 30, been anonymously spamming user Talk pages with barnstars for no apparent logical accurate reason. Examples particularly include barnstars for being "among the top 5% of most active Wikipedians this month!" when the edit counter was broken for numerous days so no one knew how many edits anyone had made. My Talk page, for instance, received two of these spam barnstars in the space of 10 days (still there, if you want to check). I contacted the admin Materialscientist, who said, "It is a busy range with lots of vandalism/trolling. Technical solution is easy: rangeblock of 66.87.0.0/16 for a few weeks, and the edits are here , but in this case, I would prefer to have some consensus reached, e.g. at WP:ANI."

I really think something should be done to stop this trolling behavior. I hope something can therefore come of this ANI. Thanks. Softlavender (talk) 09:31, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

I agree, an anon-only rangeblock of this address range for 2-3 weeks seems appropriate. Whatever they're up to, it doesn't seem to be beneficial to Misplaced Pages. -- The Anome (talk) 10:22, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

If this is escalating to a disruptive level, then a limited time block is probably in order. I recently received a 'Smile!' myself, which wasn't unpleasant on its own. -- Trevj (talk) 11:45, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

• Added Comment as nominator: I'm all for barnstars, but their value and purpose is diluted (could even say desecrated) when meaninglessly sprayed shotgun by a constantly changing and anonymous IP range for no good reason. The IP doesn't even have a substantive record of good-faith edits. Seems to clearly be trolling behavior. Perhaps a block should include an encouragement to create an account if the multiple-identity person wants to actually spread some Wiki-love (which seems obviously not the case here). Softlavender (talk) 11:59, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Agree with nominator - there is far worse vandalism than this, and many more people should be praised for the work they do, but this is just random and devalues well deserved recognition. The IP editor clearly knows how to edit, and the right sort of phrases etc. to use, so they are not a novice, and could make useful contributions. My concern is that a block may result in far more destructive vandalism, when the block expires, or they use an IP out of the blocked range. Arjayay (talk) 12:18, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

I personally can't see how anything can make the whole barnstar schtick less random and valueless than it already is/ Bearing in mind the fact that my previous post to this one was dishing out a barnstar maybe I should shut my trap?. :-) Spartaz 14:22, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

This is silly spam, nothing more. I don't see how a random allocation of barnstars could devalue them. That's not how their value is measured. Like any token gift, it's always worth exactly as much as the thought behind it. If you got a barnstar for nothing, it's worth nothing. But that has no effect on the worth of others. --Escape Orbit 17:44, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

I've had a flower put on my page, then taken off, then put on again. Which is a bit confusing, but I'm really not getting this thread.

Is it maybe possible that the IP is just eccentric and harmless?

Seems like you can call anyone anything you like and threaten to burn their house down and all you get is a no consensus discussion about it. But if you go round putting flowers and smiles on people's talkpages, that's when you cross a line. Formerip (talk) 17:42, 12 April 2012 (UTC

You also need to consider the effect on the person who received one of these anonymous barnstars. Chances are they smiled, said "that's nice" and moved on. Then if the barnstar gets REMOVED from their talk page without explanation, as happened to me, that's puzzling. Now that I know why, and realize that it was random and meaningless, I will go back and delete it again,. But IMO it really doesn't hurt anything to have someone going around distributing random attaboys. I agree with FormerIP that the practice seems eccentric and harmless. Block any further such spamming, if you like, but removing them seems unnecessary and a bit of a downer. --MelanieN (talk) 17:58, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

I got a sun flower for reason I am still looking for. But yeah it felt nice.--Vyom25 (talk) 18:02, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

It's benign spam that hurts no one. I don't think it's any big deal, possibly aside from the misrepresentation of some as most active. If we got to the point that we're worrying about devaluation, much less desecration of barnstars (if that's even an appropriate use of the word), they're being taken far too seriously. I've gotten two spam barnstars; they made me smile for a minute, then shrug my shoulders. Frankly, we've got bigger fish to fry around here, particularly given the recent outbreak of incivility that's lead all manner of strife. --Drmargi (talk) 20:15, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

I've had two 'awards' from this anon editor now. The behaviour is odd, but I was a little surprised to see that an ANI was raised. This would seem to come under WP:CIR, but seems 'mostly harmless'. I was initially a little concerned that editors who responded to the anon IP might then be targeted with further 'mundane' conversation that might lead to some form of con, but this doesn't seem to be the case.--Jeffro77 (talk) 01:39, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

• <<<This is silly spam, nothing more. I don't see how a random allocation of barnstars could devalue them.>>> You haven't clearly read the thread or investigated the situation. The IP range is giving totally random people barnstars and telling them they are "among the top 5% of most active Wikipedians this month!" when they clearly aren't. This is not only spam, it's fraud. Softlavender (talk) 23:45, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

I agree with the OP that this is disruptive (the 5% claim is flat out wrong, though I don't think I'd call it fraud). Unfortunately, though, looking at the contributions on that range you gave, I see a fairly large number of good faith contributions unrelated to this problem. At least for me, I think we need to whack the individual addresses for now and see if they get bored. Qwyrxian (talk) 02:55, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

If an editor with a username similar to Jimbo Wales posted comments on user Talk pages about a cash prize for the top 5% of editors in return for a small down payment, that might be considered 'fraud'. I'm not sure this qualifies.--Jeffro77 (talk) 01:44, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

• So, the verdict is: let's break a butterfly upon a wheel.  Tigerboy1966  20:26, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

• Methinks there was an editor some months back who was indef'd for similar activity. That might be in the ANI archives. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 01:45, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
  • A quick survey of the archives indicates that this kind of thing comes up every so often, and is dealt with on a case-by-case basis. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 01:50, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
    • This incident, for example. (I found it completely hilarious, but then again I have a very strange sense of humour.) It ended in an indef block; a benign time-sink is still a time-sink. --Shirt58 (talk) 02:31, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
      • I think that's the one. 13 months ago. Wow. Fruit flies like a banana. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 03:24, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

I just blocked ] since I saw it active now. Qwyrxian (talk) 03:12, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Maybe I missed it, but did anyone else seem to think that this is someone on a cell phone? My phone's IP (not similar to this IP) comes back to the same spot northeast of Wichita, and I'm nowhere near there. Notice that the actual data does not mention the city. Perhaps the map is defaulting to that location because it is near the center of the US? Calabe1992 00:53, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

That would be unusual, but I suppose it's possible. Geolocation services usually to err towards the nearest big settlement (ie. where a telco has a presence) rather than just sticking a pin in the middle of the map. bobrayner (talk) 10:13, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm using T-Mobile in the UK. I'm in Bristol at the moment. My IP geo-locates to London. 31.110.67.249 (talk) 21:17, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

(I am one of the users in this IP range who made some of the good-faith edits mentioned by Qwyrxian.) Yes, this IP range is a mobile system. Use "whois" instead of "geolocate" and you'll see all 66.87.x.x IP addresses are registered to Sprint-Nextel at their corporate offices in Overland Park, Kansas. Each time a user connects, the system seems to issue a different (effectively random) IP address: blocking individual addresses will have no effect on the offending Barnstar Bandit. Blocking large ranges would block anyone using Sprint's network, a bit extreme for such cutesy vandalism. 66.87.0.37 (talk) 15:11, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

(Same user here) I just disconnected and re-connected and was given this IP address 66.87.2.151 (talk) 15:14, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

This IP 67.80.64.128 is pro active in giving such awards. This is far bigger racket then I first thought.--Vyom25 (talk) 17:41, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I have a Virgin Mobile USA phone which i occassionally tether to my laptop. I have not left Michigan's state lines for over two years, yet geolocation on my phone's IPs always comes back to Overland Park, KS because I'm assigned an address out of the Sprint range. ~Crazytales (talk) 16:31, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Has anyone thought to plaster these few IP pages with alternative wikilove messages he or she might use ?. How about a few messages 'Hey you're doing a great job, try this cute message as well'.... Give them your favorite message, they may well pick up on it, one of the messages might take their interest, and you have a one editor welcoming/wikilove/cheersquad committee. Penyulap ☏ 01:24, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

+1 FormerIP and +1 MelanieN. This place needs more eccentric editors, it's way to homogeneous. Penyulap ☏ 01:40, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

well, Penyulap I posted a wel come message earlier and gave cheese burger to the other one but still no reply. There are a whole range of IPs working here.--Vyom25 (talk) 04:20, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

It certainly didn't upset me, getting a WikiLoveSpam message. I just wish I had been one of the top contributors! I like the idea of showing them some alternative messages (and Penyulap is an absolute ace at creative stuff, mega-impressive mind :D ... I am perpetually astounded at the capabilities). Pesky (talk) 08:18, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Thank you Pesky, Vyom25, spam the IP range with wikilove, if you can find anything appropriate, I had a look at what's available on the superbright whimsical skipping in the afternoon-sunshine kind of thing and thought eewww, we got nothing in the wikilove standard messages. Give it a go just the same, cut and paste wikilove so that the IP editor has a larger vocabulary than just barnstars. If he or she has never seen a wikilove message, they can't use it. Spam wikilove, it is the proper response for cases like this. Penyulap ☏ 11:46, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Tigerboy1966's comment makes me think that people are bringing guns to a foodfight, which is ill-advised, like 'bringing a knife to a gunfight'. So it's more a matter of fighting butterflies with butterflies, and I would think it's bad sportsmanship to use a vacuum cleaner on all the butterflies that have been left on peoples pages. Sucking them all up causes more harm than good. Penyulap ☏ 13:29, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Here's a slightly modified one of Penyulap's:

		Good little things mean a lot
		This is in recognition of all the helpful little things you've done. Pesky (talk) 14:44, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Just adding that I got one that said I was in the top 5% most active Wikipedians. My thought is that we make it so you need to be autoconfirmed and have an account to give barnstars and other WikiLove. Hghyux (talk to me)(talk to others) 02:14, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Yes, that's what mine said, too. I kinda like the autoconfirmed + account thing, except for the fact that we do have some people who are regular IP editors (and have been so for ages, some of them on static IPs) and it would be a bit of a shame if they couldn't hand out WikiLove where they see fit. It's one of those swings-and-roundabouts things. Pesky (talk) 10:06, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

• IP 66.87.7.204 has been awarding Golden wiki award appears to be the same person. A lot of editors whom i interact with have been awarded the same (I am not sure if they were the same or different IPs). -- ÐℬigXЯaɣ 10:19, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

I've also seen numerous random barnsters given by 68.87.... IP's in Kansas. This DOES do harm in various ways. North8000 (talk) 10:37, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

"DOES do harm"... how? The whole WikiLove thing is meant to be light-hearted and fun. If some people treat the whole thing as a bit of a joke it's hardly a surprise. This is like criticising someone for disrespecting the flag of Grand Fenwick.  Tigerboy1966  08:36, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Crank calls are also "light-hearted fun." But if someone does it to everyone in the city, repeatedly, it ceases to be fun and moves into disruption. — The Hand That Feeds You: 12:04, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

We highly encourage IPs to get an account to gain extra benefits. WikiLove should be one of those benefits. Hghyux (talk to me)(talk to others) 13:21, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

I don't hear any pummeling. Why don't I hear any pummeling ? I see a notification on the user's talkpage but I don't see any attempt to fix the problem. It's been like a week, with people wanting blocks, and others objecting to them in roughly equal numbers, so the solution will never be found there. A solution that everyone would be somewhat happier with is available, but has yet to be attempted, so the problem can simply drag on in a deadlock, or we just find one of the many solutions that everybody is comfortable with.

Remember Skeptical of Love ? he was excluded from wikipedia, effectively banned (has he been back anyone ? I don't know) and stopped editing because of too much warm fuzzy attention. Whilst it was unintentional for us to exclude S.o.L., the principle has proven itself effective.

Admin action is not required here, regular editor action IS required here. I'm not a party to the barnstar exchanges, so it's not appropriate for me to thank that editor. Further, I don't watch recent changes, so I have no opportunity to respond in the window of opportunity indicated by the contributions page, it seems to last on average at least ten minutes, and up to 40minutes, plenty of time for a pointman to intervene with some WL. Penyulap ☏ 18:41, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

I've just made a page for people to vote on what to do to solve the problem. Hghyux (talk to me)(talk to others) 22:20, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

I usually take a Napoleonic stance on barnstars, but spamming them around just devalues them. Barnstars may not be some vital cog in the wikipedia machine, but rather a drop of grease that helps the gears turn a little more smoothly. As well as the devaluation of barnstars, spamming them is simply wasting people's time. bobrayner (talk) 08:27, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Votes for what to do about barnstar issues

Votes In Support Of Rangeblock

Votes In Support Of Showing User How To Appropriately Give Barnstars

Votes In Support Of Wanting To Make It So You Have To Be Autoconfirmed To Give Barnstars

1. Hghyux (talk to me)(talk to others) 22:17, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
2. ÐℬigXЯaɣ 17:03, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

User Compy90

Compy90 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Summary

This editor has been going through articles on major championships and fleshing them out. I admit the articles need this but I have become greatly bothered by the inaccuracy of the work and Compy 90's regular removal of inline citations and unnecessary changes aka making something from correct to incorrect. I have addressed my concerns to this editor but he continues to make mistaken edits.

Removal of inline citations

• 1970 US Open. Here he removes both a controversial quote about the golf course and its IC. The quote is still famous 40 years after it was made.
• 1975 US Open. Here he removes mention of a golfer setting a scoring record and its IC.
• 1984 US Open. Here he removes two IC about a golfer's past history at the golf course. This edit also includes a unnecessary change to the location of the golf course. It was originally pointing to the town article but was changed to disambiguation page.
• 1986 US Open. Not just the removal of a inline citation, but changing the total of the amount of golfers tied for the lead from 9 to 7. The IC and the supposed sources Compy90 is using say its 9 not 7.
• 1994 US Open. This edit is strikingly similar to the one for 1986. Compy90 removed a IC but also changed a golfer starting bogey-triple bogey in a playoff to the golfer starting bogey on the first hole and triple bogey on the 3rd hole. Again the IC and the supposed sources Compy90 is using state the original score as being correct.

Content mistakes

Let me first say this editor is knowledgeable about golf history. He's made a long list of mistakes, and I'll provide a link to some of them later. The mistakes were preventable but somebody will say WP:AGF but two of them are so egregious they need to be pointed out.

• The 1984 U.S. Open edit I already mentioned above he edited into the article 'Jim Thorpe finished in a tie for 4th place, becoming the first African-American to place in the Top 10 at the U.S. Open since John Shippen in 1902.' This is very wrong not to mention WP:OR. Calvin Peete, the winningest African-American golfer in golf history prior to Tiger Woods, had finished in the top 10 of both the 1982 and 1983 U.S. Opens. I don't know how this editor couldn't know that when his edit history clearly shows he worked on the 1983 golf article before going on to the 84 one. The bit about John Shippen is unsourced and out of thin air.

• The 1960 U.S. Open. This particular open is part of golfing lore(due to Arnold Palmer's huge final round comeback) so why would this knowledgeable editor write 'Ben Hogan, aiming for a record fifth Open title, got to within three of the lead, but he found the water on his last two holes and finished in 9th, four back of Palmer.' Someone knowing golf history would know Hogan was tied for the lead not within three before finding the water. The sources Compy90 is supposedly using is clear on that also. Hogan's late failure in this tournament is brought up every time the 60 Open is discussed. It's not some obscure factoid.

His Open Championship edits

After working on U.S. Open articles, Compy90 moved onto ones about the Open Championship aka The British Open.

The verification of anything Compy90 edits into these articles is difficult because 1- He doesn't do inline citations and 2- The locating of News articles on the Open Championship using Google News Archive to corroborate facts is not easy.

Nevertheless I have found these problems. Compy90 changed the par scores for the 1949, 1950, 1952, and 1953 Open Championships. In each case from correct to incorrect ones. For instance the 1953 Open, he changed the scoring to that for a par 71 course than that of a par 72. Ben Hogan from -6 to -2 when -6 was the correct score.

In all these edits, Compy90 does not cite a source for his changes. The sources he is putting into the article(external links at the bottom) don't back up his changes. How did I verify them? Google News archive. Note- till recently golfobserver.com would have been the source for scores but that website's owner recently put that information and more behind a pay wall.

Other wrong edits Compy90 has been making to the Open Championship articles has been the changing of golfers nationalities from either ENG to GBR or SCO to GBR or ENG. Why he has done this is hard to understand because these golfers articles show their nationalities clearly in most cases and they don't backup the changes Compy90 is making.

Another golf editor has gone back and reverted these changes. They can be seen here and here for example.

Notifying this editor about my concerns

I've done so on multiple occasions. Here, here, here, and here Note The last of those talk page posts has a list of other factual mistakes I have found and alluded to earlier in this post.

There is a editor who does considerable work on golf articles, and I addressed the issues I have with Comp90 to him. These talk page posts can be found here and here.

Have I notified Compy90 of this post

Not yet, but I will when I complete this post.

Clear about myself

I'm not the most diplomatic of editors. The factual mistakes I keep finding in golf articles is one of my admitted bugaboos especially when most of them are easily preventable. I pointed out mistakes to compy90 gently but but when he said in one talk page post that he didn't see where he was wrong, I started losing patience with him because I had sources to back up what I was saying.

What am I asking for from administrators

I'm not sure. Either that this editor have someone mentor him or that it be required that he provide inline citations for any golf article changes he makes so another editor can verify them. The adding of content to these articles is good but it needs to be accurate and verifiable....William 14:01, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Why don't you just add the cites yourself instead of coming here and posting all these words? Jtrainor (talk) 14:36, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

First of all, the burden of proof should be on him. Has he gotten it from Sports Illustrated The Vault? Google News Archive? A paid subscription to GO? A book? A golf website? Why should I play or any other editor have to play guessing games?

How many citation needed things are put in by editors on WP wanting confirmation? Thousands, over a million? It's quite routine to ask facts be verifiable.

Oh and if you bothered to check, I've added citations after proving what he's written is wrong. For example here, here, here, here....William 16:22, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

• It's difficult to tell exactly what's going on here because this user appears to believe he is adding correct information from reliable sources. If you challenge any of his edits (and you seem to be challenging quite a few of them), he needs to provide a reliable source backing them up. Is there any consensus among golf editors or a relevant WikiProject about which golf sources are considered reliable and which aren't? Hopefully the user will chime in here with their version of what's going on. We can't have people adding masses of incorrect information to articles that has to be monitored and challenged. --Laser brain (talk) 17:44, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
  • There has never been a discussion among golf editors about what is a reliable source. Generally anything on the websites of the pro tours around the world is accepted. The World Golf Hall of Fame is acceptable too. Golfobserver was also considered a RS but as I said earlier it is now behind a pay wall.

Just about all those reliable sources have or had errors in their stats. I've ferreted out quite a few and gotten the tours to correct themselves. Here is one example and the World Golf Hall of Fame took note of it almost at once. Because of this I usually poke around golf articles looking for mistakes. I don't blame the editors if all they're doing is copying from the tour websites and the tour websites are incorrect. Like they were in this case

Other sources, well....Golf history(like a lot of sports) has a tendency to lead to exaggeration over the years. For example a ESPN writer told a tale about Arnold Palmer at Pebble Beach one year. Out of curiosity I checked it and found what was described to happen by a writer today didn't match how it was described when the event actually took place in 1962. The ESPN writer said he was relating Arnold's story. I therefore give more weight to golf articles written at the time something took place rather than one written 30 years later. That's me but some golf editors don't practice it.

Compy90 is continuing to edit even though he was notified of this discussion and his edits still continue to have the same problem. For instance here. He changes the nationality of certain golfers from ENG or WAL to GBR in the 4th round section of the article. The thing is....

• These golfers own WP articles say they are either from ENG or Wales not GBR. Golf biographies say Dave Thomas is from Wales.
• Compy90 changes the nationalities only in the 4th round section of the article. For instance, Dave Thomas is listed as being from Wales in the 1st round, but after Compy 90's edit, he is from GBR in the 4th round section.

Compy 90 has done these nationality change in every Open Championship article work of his that I've checked on. NOTE- I haven't checked every year and some article only have final round scores, not scores for after round 1 etc etc.

In the 1957 Open Championship edit of his that was done after this conversation began, he put in bits about a rules violation and the site of the tournament being change. There is no inline citation for this, but one of his EL backs it up. Problem is- I can't find Google News Archive news articles that corroborate either the rules violation or the site change. Update I found a source. It mentions the petrol rationing that causes the site of the Open to be changed but makes no mention of the rules violation and the article was written days after that Open took place.

Yesterday Compy90 edited three open championship articles, 57, 58, and 59, and I reverted all three because of multiple mistakes in all of them or unverifed information in them. I told this editor I would do this....William 11:39, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Comments section

• Holy tl;dr, Batman... I just wanted to chime in saying that the current convention in the sport internationally is to list the specific nationality (intimating ethnicity) of golfers from the country of Great Britain — so England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland would be correct, not GBR. Carrite (talk) 16:08, 18 April 2012 (UTC) Last edit: Carrite (talk) 16:09, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

That's the current convention of golf editors to be specific about nationality. There are some golfers who have no WP article of their own and their history is murky and unknown and the consensus in that case with the British Open is that they be listed GBR. I would go blank myself but I appear to be a minority. Compy90's edits haven't so far as I know involved any of these golfers....William 16:33, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

• It is somewhat tl;dr, but there seems to be a lot of history here. Compy seems to be editing incorrectly on a quite frequent basis and either unwilling or unable to communicate clearly about it. --Laser brain (talk) 16:19, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Compy90 has edited again. This time it is the 1960 Open Championship.]. Once more he has incorrectly changed nationalities for golfers but only in the 4th round scoring section of the article. Which puts that section in conflict with other sections. For example in the 3rd round Syd Scott is listed as from ENG but in the 4th round as being from GBR. Factually, the article looked fine to me except for one potential quibble. He described a player hitting a ball out of bounds. The news source I used to check it, Sports Illustrated, described the ball as ending up top of a wall not OB. OB might be right(The wall might have been out of bounds), but I tweaked that bit of article, added a online citation, and reverted all the nationality revisions....William 19:18, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

A different point

Why are so many of these golf articles full of little flag pictures? Specific example of the problem:

• Does Darren Clarke carry a Northern Ireland passport?
• Was Clarke playing on some kind of "Northern Ireland" team in the 2011 Open?

If the answer to both those questions is "no", why is Clarke's name always prefixed by a little flag picture that looks almost but not quite like an English flag? bobrayner (talk) 09:29, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

The simple answer is that precious few sports-related WikiProjects pay MOS:FLAG much attention, and even those that do get locked into interminable discussions as to what is and is not an appropriate use of representative nationality. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 13:33, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

The problem with fixing it is that it's an utter nightmare to remove all of them without AWB, and with AWB (which is what I did in articles about supercentenarians) one typo can completely destroy a table. If anyone wants to learn how to quickly get remove all the flags in these articles, ping me on my talkpage and I can give you a crash course; WP:FLAGBIO is very explicit on this matter. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 14:09, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

It's been standard to put the flags into golf articles as long as I have been contributing to them. I myself think the info is not necessary and it would be a royal pain to remove them all. Want to see alot of flags? Go here] where a golfer has 88 wins and 28 playoff results all of which contain at least one flag. BTW I did those boxes for Kathy Whitworth....William 14:19, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

It took me about 2 minutes to fix that article by simply pasting the stuff into notepad++ and replacing every flagicon entry with a blank space. Kaboom. Jtrainor (talk) 15:14, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

...aaaand it took someone else 2 milliseconds to undo it. --64.85.221.126 (talk) 16:54, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Ah, well AWB basically does the same thing, except more efficiently if done right; all you have to do us put the flag icons in once in ind/replace, then go to every article and hit the edit button. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 19:07, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Reverted back and put a note on the original reverter's talk page. Jtrainor (talk) 23:42, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

• On a related point, quite a lot of these sports articles have rather dubious nationalities. Considering the earlier example of 1960 Open Championship, the source lists lots of people with a nationality of "GBR", but in the article these were changed to "England", "Scotland", "Wales" &c. bobrayner (talk) 09:08, 20 April 2012 (UTC) (Sorry, this isn't really something that requires administrator intervention, is it? I'd like to throw some light on some of the murkier corners but this may not be the best venue)

Blocked

Unfortunately I have had to block Compy90 since he has ignored this matter and continued to edit. The block is indefinite since he has not engaged in any discussion. As I noted on his talk page, any administrator should feel free to lift the block without consulting me if they are satisfied he has addressed and discussed the concerns raised here. --Laser brain (talk) 14:20, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

I didn't want this outcome, rather have this editor change his ways and I would have been perfectly willing to teach him the tricks of trade for verifying info for golf articles. One question- He's banned but how can he try to communicate any willingness to change if his account doesn't work any longer? I am just curious....William 14:32, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

No, he is not banned. He is blocked from editing until he displays a willingness to discuss these matters at the very least. He can edit his Talk page; that is where he can discuss and place an unblock request. Right now, my only goal is to get him to acknowledge and discuss the matters you've raised. If he does that, we can unblock and move on. --Laser brain (talk) 15:07, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for explanation and I hope Compy90 eventually replies back and we move on as you say....William 15:48, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

User:HasperHunter / User:38.114.81.204

In addition to several other disruptive behaviors (e.g. deleting cited information - ), User:HasperHunter / User:38.114.81.204 has been posting fairly nasty comments about me on my Talk: page; for example, this one and particularly this one. After his IP was blocked for the latter comment, he apparently convinced the blocking admin to allow him to edit through a hard block. The IP is obviously HasperHunter's; they both edit and revert for each other on a variety of unrelated articles (e.g. List of Jewish Nobel laureates, Kathmandu, High Five Interchange, 2011–12 La Liga, Ghana) - almost every page edited by the IP has also been edited by HasperHunter. I'm bringing this issue here now because HasperHunter is not only apparently deliberately logging out so that his IP can act as a "bad hand" account, but has also gotten his account modified so that he can edit even when his IP is blocked. Jayjg 01:22, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

I am not sure what this claim is about at all. The IP that I use is the one that I am using right now . This 38.114.81.204 looks like from my workplace. This is a group IP address of a university. There can be 100s of people with that same ID but that does not mean I was the one using them for all the edits. I have no idea what bad hand, account modifies and all this claims is. I dont think anyone can claim what a random IP did and blame it to random users like me. There could have been many users using wikipedia at the same time when I was using it from my office. It could also have been possible that I had left my user id logged in although i doubt it. I am sure though there were many users using from the same ip as it is of a workplace.HasperHunter (talk) 01:37, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

For reference on the interactions between HasperHunter and 38.114.81.204, see Snottywong's new tool. Monty₈₄₅ 01:28, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Hasper, I believe the quacking behaviour is a bit too loud to ignore. :) Salvidrim! 01:50, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Are you saying every edits from that IP which probably is connected to over 100 computers in a university is done by me? I would like to see what edits were done from that IP and I can prove that it was not me, definitely not all the edits as I usually only edit from my home.HasperHunter (talk) 01:53, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Amazingly enough, that IP seems to mostly edit the exact same (apparently completely unrelated) articles that you do! And with the exact same POV! You even revert for each other! Are you really claiming you didn't leave those comments on my Talk: page? Jayjg 01:59, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

I have not touched your page at all! I dont even know what for? How did you and me get involved in the 1st place! I am being blocked for reasons I dont even know yet and out of nowhere. You tell me why would I edit pages without being logged in. If i ever did would be from my workplace but as I already said that IP must be connected to over 100 computers. I am just curious as what are the wikipedia edits from that server. If i were disrupting others pages or reverting edit my own edits from a different server why would i not be doing this all the time!?HasperHunter (talk) 02:09, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, that's just not plausible - the evidence is too strong to be simple coincidence. Jayjg 02:11, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps you might want to consider logging in from school? This would be helpful. Fasttimes68 (talk) 02:03, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Why do i need to do that? I do my edits from home. I am ok with this.HasperHunter (talk) 02:09, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Indeed, logging in would clarify the situation. It seems there is someone in your school who thinks, edits & behaves exactly as you do, which certainly is a surprising coincidence. Salvidrim! 02:11, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

I can definitely do that. But still not sure how logging in will help. How can that person think edit behave exactly like me when there are articles that I have never edited and that ip has. I have already mentioned I use that IP sometimes while I am at work but then others might be using it at the same time as I did, can they not? I usually edit the la liga and football records, kathmandu (my homeplace) but definitely not that user talk pages of others that is being claimed. Now, I am not a computer expert. But if a few users use the same IP can they edit a few articles at different times? my workplace is a university so it can be possible many users editing same articles.HasperHunter (talk) 02:17, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

I will go ahead and login from my workplace tomorrow as per your request.HasperHunter (talk) 02:19, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

• Whilst looking at the evidence I was quite happy to indef both the account and the IP, I've just noticed the comment made by a CU here, so I think I'll hold back until they've commented. Black Kite (talk) 02:21, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

I originally blocked HasperHunter, but after taking another look at the situation after an unblock request from him, I have erred on the side of caution to AGF and unblock, mainly because of the difference in edits between the two accounts.

That being said, if another admin and/or CU wants to look at this, I don't mind; alternatively, a full WP:SPI case can be opened up, in which I would naturally be recused. I know I am capable of making mistakes as an admin and a CU, but I would be more comfortable knowing that I have prevented more than likely sockpuppetry than feeling guilty about indefinitely blocking an uninvolved user who is happening to be sharing the same IP as some other troublemaker behind it. --MuZemike 05:30, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

After comparing the edit histories of the articles mentioned above, I wonder if I have made a grave mistake in unblocking; in this case, I will need an uninvolved admin to reassess this situation. --MuZemike 05:45, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

I would endorse an indef on the account at this point. Block the IP for a couple of months. — Nearly Headless Nick {c} 21:06, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

OK, what I was doing was comparing User:DBSSURFER's edits with HasperHunter's edits, in which I saw virtually no overlap there, even though there clearly is (as a lot of people are noting) between HasperHunter and the IP in question. That was why I decided to unblock, as it is very much possible that we may have run across a false positive. --MuZemike 22:50, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

I have no idea who User:DBSSURFER is, though your explanation for your actions makes a lot of sense. My issue was with the inappropriate edits of 38.114.81.204, including some rather nasty bigotry. Now that it has been shown that 38.114.81.204 is HasperHunter (logging out to avoid detection), and that rather than admitting this and apologizing, he chose to deny it, could you please block/re-block? Jayjg 01:04, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Logging out to avoid detection--- what does this mean? I am always and right now logged in as well! I have repeatedly mentioned that IP belongs to a university where all the computers have that same address. I will in no way take responsibility of 100% of the edits that were made from that IP. I have already said, I edit the Kathmandu, Prime Ministers of Nepal etc pages. I am OK if everyone thinks I should be blocked but in no way I am responsible for the talk edits Jayg is accusing me of so apologizing for this ridiculous accusation is out of question. I am actually trying to find with the IT services who might have edited those pages and who might have used my account if any. I have no more to contribute here. I will be editing and contributing the pages which I normally do. Its funny you accuse me straight of random article edits when you dont even know me? I edit articles which are interesting to me. Who gives the rule of specific articles edits for specific editors. Goodbye for now. I have a busy weekHasperHunter (talk) 01:50, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

I've reblocked. Checkuser shows this account was created five minutes after another account, User:DBSSHASPAR, was created on the same IP with the same computer; the coincidence is too strong to ignore. --jpgordon 14:55, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Unregistered User:50.95.41.4 threatening, racial slurring in Deletion proposal

Please take into serious consideration this comments here Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Gjekë Marinaj. Obnoxious and dreadful nationalistic threats towards another user and a whole community. This IP should be blocked immediately, not only for vandalism, but for serious threatening of Misplaced Pages's continuity and welfare. I advise a serious investigation to be carried into consideration since such threats have been materialized into real deletions, POV edits, ultra-nationalistic policy and propaganda hidden behind pseudo-encyclopedic articles that only intend realizing the aims of this mentally-unstable-looking comment. All this then concludes with real frustration towards users, contributors and readers of a whole community.

You kindly oblige me by working on this issue. Sincerely, Empathictrust (talk) 12:34, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Please, consider also this new user's dubious edits , who seem to have opened his account for the sole purpose of eliminating Gjekë Marinaj in wikipedia and his work. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Empathictrust (talk • contribs) 13:04, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

The first IP has been blocked by Future Perfect at Sunrise for 48 hrs. The second IP last edited almost 5 days ago. If they're an IP hopper, they'll have likely moved on already. Blackmane (talk) 13:07, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for the swift answer Blackmane, they probably did move on. Sorry for bothering you again but even after the deletion nomination's closure there still seems that such users are disrupting this article. A new unregistered one with IP 87.236.90.110 seems to have logged in after I had commented on Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Gjekë Marinaj yesterday, mentioning the fact I wrote you here and these highly disruptive IPs. Seems that this user is accustomed with the rules, despite editing for just some 2 hours, he has written to Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Festes/Archive, mentioning me as "definitely a sock puppet", even writing to another user page that voted for deletion and misinterpreting my edits. Nevertheless, I just ran into this article when it was nominated from deletion at WP:SQ, and found sources that were in favour of his notability so voted for keeping it and made a long comment regarding issues I saw problematic.

You can investigate on me and on them, I don't know how it works, I'm totally open for anything. Just I see the need that Future Perfect at Sunrise restricts the edits on this article Gjekë Marinaj for at least the autoconfirmed users, since vandalism and POV pushing is still evident, in favour and against the article as well. With all due respect, Empathictrust (talk) 11:48, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Bullied by an edit warring admin

Nightscream (talk · contribs) has been constantly adding ( ) the words "Max Nicholson of IGN compared" to a simple observation stated by a reviewer. The observation merely points out the similarity between a part of the episode and a bit by Bill Hicks. Since this is a simple compare and contrast between two spoken texts, backed up by a RS, it falls under WP:NOTOR. A conversation was initiated on Nightscream's talk page; he carried it over to mine with a snide comment about what is and isn't his job and how he is above the EW law by WP:GAMING (quote: "3RR does not apply to editors addressing or reverting clear policy violations, such as the removal of valid, sourced material"), then shut me down and refused to communicate after asserting that it's an opinion and I'm removing valid sourced material. The material was sourced by me. The addition was initially made by an anonymous IP, and Nightscream kept reverting it ( ) instead of doing what I did – Google a source. Jc37 (talk · contribs) protected the page and urged us to solve the dispute through talk, but Nightscream quit replying. Now he's bullying me on my talk page into quitting. This is no longer an edit warring matter, it's intimidation and WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT by an admin. Hearfourmewesique (talk) 13:42, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

• There's no 3RR exemption for "clear policy violations", last I checked. Left a 3RR warning. Stifle (talk) 13:54, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

The source says that the "kill yourself" joke in the episode was "almost eerily similar to a standup bit from Bill Hicks." The content that you're trying to save says that the joke was "a nod to Bill Hicks." I'm afraid I have to agree with Nightscream on this one, there is no source which states that "this joke is a reference to Bill Hicks" as a fact, it's clearly an opinion and if it's going to be included in the article, it should be stated as such. It's also an extremely minor issue, certainly not worth climbing the Reichstag over. How about we all just calm down and move on? ‑Scottywong| talk _ 13:58, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

• I thought the only exemption from 3RR was a BLP one? Darkness Shines (talk) 13:58, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
  • There's been a burgeoning list.Stifle (talk) 14:00, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
• I've just looked at the timing of this issue and self-reverted the 3RR warning. This issue happened three days ago, why only raise it now? Stifle (talk) 14:00, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
  • I didn't get to a good Internet connection until just now, and besides, the bottom line is that I'm still under Nightscream's threat of being blocked. Hearfourmewesique (talk) 14:03, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

After numerous ECs: There is no 3RR exception except for BLP, and this does not fall under BLP. You may be right abotu the content and wrong in the approach, which is where NS and SW are falling. That given, this is basically a very stale EW report + a warning from an involved Admin. The admin did not block. Is there anything to be currently done regarding this? I suggest we wait until we hear NS. KillerChihuahua 14:05, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)x manyI was going to say the same thing as Scottywong. It's better to have the statement fully attributed (both by ref and in the article) to avoid the possible misunderstanding by a reader that the "joke is a reference to Bill Hicks" is universally accepted. I think this can be solved by a simple case of "if I were a reader.." Blackmane (talk) 14:05, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

• To Scottywong (talk · contribs): I didn't write that it was a reference, just that it's similar. We don't have to add the reviewer's name and the fact that he made the comparison, the footnote is more than sufficient. Hearfourmewesique (talk) 14:06, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

The text was that "it is a nod to Bill Hicks", which implies that you know that the writer intended this as a reference to Hicks, as opposed to an unintentional similarity. ‑Scottywong| babble _ 14:10, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

(ec) Unattributed opinions are problematic at best, policy violations when presented as fact. When rephrased, they can be even more problematic. Nightscream was correct there, and so is Scottywong. The warning NS left was entirely appropriate, IMO. And you are making this a content dispute on ANI, not about the admin's alleged bullying. If you want to argue content, go elsewhere. KillerChihuahua 14:13, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

• Do you mind explaining why it is so important to you that this comparison is not presented as an opinion? ‑Scottywong| yak _ 14:16, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

OK, I believe there is a huge confusion. The "nod" diff was by an anonymous IP. My version is here, and it states as follows: "Stan's phone call to J&G, in which he angrily urges the host to kill himself, is similar to the "Marketing and Advertising" bit from comedian Bill Hicks' 1997 album Arizona Bay." What exactly is problematic here? And KillerChihuahua (talk · contribs), I'm not arguing content, I tried that with Nightscream and was rudely shut down, which is why I came here. Hearfourmewesique (talk) 14:19, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Yes, you are arguing content, and so is Scottywong. Could we please stick to the issue at hand, which is whether Nightscream acted appropriately by his numerous reverts, and giving the warning? All else is inappropriate on this page except as context, which has been clearly established. KillerChihuahua 14:21, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

• Reply to Scottywong: because it's as clear as the sky is blue, and we have a reliable source that also states that. Nightscream's edit is an unnecessary bureaucratic word clutter. Hearfourmewesique (talk) 14:24, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
  • Comment to KillerChihuahua: "acting appropriately by his numerous reverts"??? Don't you mean "inappropriately"? Hearfourmewesique (talk) 14:25, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
  • Just because you have the information doesn't mean it's common knowledge. It would be a good thing to leave the reasonable preamble identifying who has that viewpoint before the quote. Otherwise the text implies it's a widely held viewpoint (which from what I can tell it's not). Trout for you for raising this old edit war after it's been quiet for a while. Trout for Nightscream for participating in an edit war. Happy? Hasteur (talk) 14:34, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
• Comment for Scottywong Because when this editor gets a bee in his bonnet about something and decides that he's right, he's right, and let's you know in no uncertain terms! CaptainScreebo 14:54, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
  • Bravo, Captain Screebo. Now we're resorting to "let's get the editor who dare come here and complain about our administrative brethren". Cue the booing audience! Hearfourmewesique (talk) 14:59, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Look in our brief encounter, I found your behaviour stubborn, rude and self-opinionated, and I let the talk page stalker deal with your aggressive and uncivil comment to avoid getting into a spat. So I was just adding some context in response to SW's question. When you're wrong or consensus is against you, why not just accept it gracefully? Cue round of applause and a self-congratulatory pat on the back! CaptainScreebo 15:19, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Something may indeed be "as clear as the sky is blue", but that's not succificent for Misplaced Pages. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 15:22, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

• To Bushranger: this is why it is backed up by a reliable source, therefore completely in compliance with WP:V.
• To Captain Screebo: if calling you out on your rudeness is rude, then cue the sympathetic chants. There was no consensus, just Nightscream continuously reverting me in a self-righteous manner. Besides, your attempt to discredit me by quoting an unrelated incident borders on a plain personal attack. Hearfourmewesique (talk) 15:28, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

From your own talk page, Get some manners and use them. Sound advice, I'd say. CaptainScreebo 16:00, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

• • If there weren't consensus there, there certainly is now that there's been some discussion on it. You are, simply put, wrong that a journalistic interpretation of the similarity of these works somehow makes it an obvious fact which can be presented as such. Nevertheless, Nightscream should have been mature enough not to edit war with you over it, let alone escalating it to warning templates. That is ideally what we should be discussing, and the actual content dispute dropped (as you're the only one who apparently doesn't agree with Nightscream's interpretation of how we report opinions). Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 15:38, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
    • Again, I say, put yourself in the reader's shoes and think, if you knew nothing about the subject matter and just wanted to read Wiki to get some info on that particular episode and read that statement without an in-article attribution to the journalist who stated it, would it not be reasonable to expect the reader to believe that he comparison is exactly what the episode writer wanted? Before the usual ANI shitfight kicks in, can we all settle down and chill out? Rather than dig up past dirt lets deal with the, content-unrelated, matter at hand. Tea anyone? Blackmane (talk) 15:55, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

• If we leave out the various digressions that have come into this discussion, the essential points are:

1. Nightscream and Hearfourmewesique have both edit warred.
2. Contrary to what Hearfourmewesique says, this edit was not bullying, but a simple explanation of what the problem with his/her editing is.
3. There is a clear consensus that Hearfourmewesique was mistaken.
4. Contrary to what Nightscream says, there is no exemption to the edit warring policy for "addressing or reverting clear policy violations". (Though, contrary to what some other people seem to think, BLPs are not the only exemption: the policy lists eight different exemptions.)

What is the way forward from here? We could consider blocking one or both editors. Better, though, in my opinion, is for the matter to be simply dropped now, with Hearfourmewesique accepting consensus. JamesBWatson (talk) 16:17, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Hi. I just saw the message on my talk page regarding this discussion. I think a lot of what I would have said in response was covered by the quite-reasonable reactions already here, so in order to avoid a comprehensive rehash of everything, I'd like to narrow my focus this: The notion that I edit warred; violated 3RR or came close to; and the suggestion that I should be blocked. I'd like to explain my position here, but I have to go out now, and don't know if I'll have time to compose the thoughtful response I'd like to by later this afternoon, later tonight, when I get home from the city (and might be tired), or first thing tomorrow. May I be allowed this time to respond? Thanks. Nightscream (talk) 17:51, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Why is this here and not at WP:AN3 or WP:DRN?  --Lambiam 20:26, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Why would it be at DRN when there is no apparent discussion on the article talk page? Nil Einne (talk) 21:15, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

The DRN "enforcer" approves of this comment Hasteur (talk) 01:06, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Nightscream's response

Arbitrary break. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 09:34, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

I have not engaged in any "edit warring". Edit warring does not refer to the reversal of clear and unambiguous policy violations, and presenting an opinion as a fact is indeed such a violation, since attributing such claims or opinions to their authors, rather than stating them matter-of-factly, goes to the core of Misplaced Pages's neutrality. Any claim that is evaluative, interpretive or analytical not only requires the citation of a reliable secondary source, but needs to be explicitly attributed to its author. It is for this reason that The Shawshank Redemption article, for example, does not state as fact that that film is an allegory for maintaining one's feeling of self-worth when placed in a hopeless position. It properly attributes that analysis to Roger Ebert in the article text, and not simply with a citation footnote at the end of the passage. If repeatedly reverting an edit that presents an opinion as fact constitutes edit warring, and is not an exemption to 3RR, then by extension, that would mean that every time violates WP:NPOV by making such edits, and refuses to back down, that I have to hold a consensus discussion on the matter, which is silly.

To provide an additional context for this, keep in mind the South Park articles are frequent targets of unsourced or poorly written () trivia, fancruft, POV and other material by editors, mostly anonymous IP newbies, many of whom can't compose a coherent sentence, and not only have no interest in learning Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines, but show outright contempt for it and the editing community here. (One editor once said to me in a talk page discussion "And no, I won't sign my name with four tildes or sign up with a username to Misplaced Pages in order to ostensibly be taken more seriously. I don't see the need to follow those suggestions either".) These editors often leave less-than-constructive posts or make bizarre comments on the article talk pages, rarely following up or showing any interest in my attempts to explain policy and guidelines to them, and in some cases, violating Civility and even vandalizing my talk page and user page because they don't like it when I try to explain to them policies regarding content and sources. I used to have other editors like User:WikiuserNI to assist me on the SP articles, but I haven't heard from him in a while, and I don't notice a lot of traffic nowadays on those articles from skilled, experienced editors who understand policy and basic article composition. Can you imagine how those articles would grind to a halt, as would the work of lot of the editors who take time to participate in consensus discussions and on noticeboards like this one, if every time some ignorant, quasi-troll who no regard for basic writing or the standards by which an encyclopedia is written, makes some edit that clearly flies in a face of a core guideline, and have I have to come running to those more dedicated editors to say, "Mother may I, is it okay to revert? Can you participate in a consensus discussion on this?" Isn't reverting such disruptive edits, and cautioning those who make them, one of the reasons that we have admins in the first place?

Editors should discuss editorial matters, but only when there is not a clear-cut policy violation, and there is a genuine, good faith disagreement on the proper application or interpretation of policy or guideline. Hearfourmewesique had none, as seen in his edit summaries, his conduct on his talk page, and his statements here.

• He argues, for example, that including attributive wording "clutters up the text", which is preposterous. Should we go through all articles on works of fiction that feature analytical or evaluative material, and remove the names of those who provided those viewpoints?

• He argues that when an evaluative claim is supported by a secondary source, then "It's not opinion". So in other words, that The Shawshank Redemption is an allegory for what Ebert says it is is a fact? Do I really have to elaborate on this? This is not about a good faith difference on policy; it's about an editor with an only modestly skilled vocabulary. If he doesn't know the difference between a fact and an opinion, then he has no business making any edits that require such judgment, assuming he has any business editing Misplaced Pages at all.

• When I warned him not to remove valid, sourced material (specifically, the in-text attribution of the claim's author, Max Nicholson), he seemed to engage in what was either willful mendacity, or just sheer obliviousness to his own self-contradictions. When responding with a list of four numbered points, his first point was the question, "The info is sourced by me, so how exactly can you accuse me of removing it?", suggesting that he didn't know what material I was talking about. But then, in the third numbered point, he argumed, "I think the better wording is to state the observation with a footnote. Cluttering the text with redundancies hurts the spirit of Misplaced Pages." So in one breath, he claims ignorance of what I'm talking about, and in the next, he concedes that he favors removal of the material in question.

• Perhaps the most telling behavior by him concerns the methodology by which matters of fact and reason should be argued by disagreeing parties. If one person provides a claim, and backs it up with some line of argument, and you disagree with it, then you have to falsify the claim, either by showing how the line of reasoning or evidence being employed is false, or how it does not lead to the conclusion in question. Many people, however, do not do this, and instead engage in behavior that is either intellectually dishonest, or just rhetorical. This pertains to Hearfourmewesique thus: I tried pointing out to him that 3RR does not apply to editors addressing or reverting clear policy violations, such as the removal of attributive wording whose absence would violate NPOV, as I pointed out above. Did he falsify my argument? Did he challenge my reasoning? No. His response was the following: "You are still on the verge of violating 3RR, no matter how nicely you put it otherwise." So in other words, he just repeated the original assertion about 3RR, and mischaracterized my reasoning as "putting it nicely". This is the equivalent of sticking one's fingers in their ears and saying, "I can't here you, La-la-la-la-la...." He also linked the word "nicely" to WP:GAME, but because he refused to falsify my reasoning, or even addressed it, he never bothered to explain how it constituted "deliberately using Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines in bad faith to thwart the aims of Misplaced Pages."

With this, I realized that he was neither willing nor capable of conducting a discussion in which he could argue his case with intellectual honesty or coherency, maturity or basic decency, so I ceased my attempts to discuss this matter with him, thinking he'd cease his disruptive edits. (His presentation of himself here as a victim by co-opting a current social movement and histrionically referring to that legitimate warning as "bullying" only serves to further underscore this.) By virtue of both the lack of merit to his position, and his inability to engage in dispute resolution or discussion to show otherwise, both my reverts and the block warning I gave him were perfectly legitimate, and did not constitute edit warring or a violation (or near-violation) of 3RR. If anyone here can falsify what I have said here by way of evidence or reason, please do so. Nightscream (talk) 05:50, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Well, I was wrong. I thought that the only significant problems here were on Hearfourmewesique's part: his/her refusal or inability to accept consensus, his/her belligerent attitude here, etc. I thought that, while Nightscream had edit warred, and had mistakenly thought that "clear policy violations" were an exemption to the policy on edit warring, there was no significant problem there. The edit warring was on too small a scale to be very important, and now that the misunderstanding of the edit warring policy had been pointed out, he/she would realise his/her mistake, and that could be an end of that matter. However, things have turned out to be different from that.

1. Nightscream persists in the belief that "clear policy violations" are an exemption to the policy on edit warring, despite having had it pointed out by several different editors that this is not so. Technically speaking, the edit warring policy does not list any exemptions at all to edit warring, but it lists eight exemptions to the three revert rule, which are in practice treated as exemptions to edit warring. Those eight exemptions are as follows: 1 Reverting your own actions; 2 Reverting edits to pages in your own user space; 3 Reverting actions performed by banned users and sockpuppets; 4 Reverting obvious vandalism; 5 Removal of clear copyright violations; 6 Removal of other content that is clearly illegal in the U.S. state of Florida; 7 Removal of material that violates the policy on biographies of living persons; 8 Considerable leeway is given to editors reverting to maintain the quality of a featured article while it appears on the main page. Nothing there can possibly be taken as meaning that "clear policy violations" are exempt.
2. Nightscream has presented a long diatribe about why he/she thinks that his/her repeated reversions were justified. Time and again I find that editors blocked for edit warring use "but my reversions were justified" as a defence, but to see this defence used by an administrator is disturbing: any administrator should know that you may not edit war even if you are "right".
3. Nightscream evidently thinks that his/her long post is a defence against the charge of edit warring, but a large proportion of what he/she writes is irrelevant to that charge. He/she is essentially arguing at great length "some articles are very badly edited, and some editors edit very badly, so it ought to be acceptable to keep reverting what they do to save time and trouble". His/her arguments might or might not be good points if they were presented in a discussion as to whether the policy ought to be changed, but he/she seems to have completely failed to see that they are irrelevant to a defence against the charge of edit warring according to the current policy.
4. Although I did not agree with the main substance of Hearfourmewesique's complaint against Nightscream, I do think that Nightscream could have handled the matter better. For example, this edit is distinctly contemptuous in tone. An administrator should be more civil and constructive, even when he or she is dealing with an editor they think is in the wrong.

Frankly, I am alarmed that an administrator should behave in this way. We have the following: (1) Edit warring. (2) Uncivil behaviour towards another editor. (3) Erroneous belief about exemptions to the edit warring policy. OK, we all make mistakes, but more serious is the stubborn persistence in the mistake, even when several people have pointed out the error. Nightscream should have checked the policy, and come back and said "thanks for pointing out my mistake". (4) Erroneous belief that edit warring is acceptable if the editor doing it is convinced their edits are "right". (5) The inability to distinguish between the two concepts "what I think the policy should be" and "what the established policy is". (6) Responding to suggestions that he/she had edit warred with a long post that exhibits a combative, battelground approach. What is more, this was done when consensus in the discussion was clearly in support of Nightscream in most respects, with the matter of edit warring being a side issue, which had ceased days ago, and was likely to be simply dropped.

None of this is the sort of behaviour which I think we should see from an administrator. I did think that, although Nightscream had edit warred, and had made a mistake about what policy was, there were no serious problems, and no need for any action, but unfortunately the latest post by this editor has raised very serious concerns. JamesBWatson (talk) 08:51, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

see also Nightscream's recent contributions to the talk page at Touré and response to clear evidence of both sockpuppetry and meatpuppetry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.215.149.96 (talk) 13:58, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

As far as your reaction to my explanation about the poor quality of the edits on the South Park articles, I never stated nor implied that "it ought to be acceptable to keep reverting what they do to save time and trouble". While there was a time element involved in my argument (funny, I had a feeling someone would distort the point of that argument) the central criterion on which that statement hinged was the unambiguous nature of the violating edits. I do not argue that reverts should be made when there is a genuine conflict in interpretation of policy, a point I subsequently emphasized above. What I did was point out how perverse it would be to have to ask others' permission, or have a consensus discussion, every time someone clearly and unambiguously violated a core policy, and refuses to back down from it before I reverted it. Again, if every time someone changes the wording of a passage so that the attribution of an evaluative claim is removed, and that claim is presented as fact, and that editor refuses to acquiesce after I initially revert it, that I have to hold a consensus discussion on the matter before I can revert it as a second or third time? Yes or no?

To be fair, when composing my messages to Hearfourmewesique, I did initially misremember what someone had told me about 3RR back in April 2007, when a 3RR block imposed on my was reversed because that article was a BLP. I had not double-checked that portion of my talk page archive. But with regard to your emphasis on the specific list of exemptions at 3RR, please see WP:LETTER and WP:IAR (the latter of which I admit should be changed to "Use Common Sense" instead of "Ignore All Rules"). All policies and guidelines need to be interpreted and applied with common sense, and according to their intent and spirit, and not with perverse adherence to the letter of the law, or to the exclusion of all rationality. A blatant violation of WP:NPOV that occurs when an editor changes a passage so that a critic's observation or opinion is presented matter-of-fact should be reverted, and when the violating editor fails to offer a single cogent argument (which as I showed up, Hearfourmewesique, failed to do), requiring admins to jump through more and more bureaucratic hoops is simply not reasonable.

There is nothing "contemptuous" in tone of the message in question. It is assertive and critical, but polite, and its statements reasoned. If there is a single thing in that message that exhibits "contempt", please point to it. By contrast, your repeated dismissal of my point of view as a "long diatribe" or complaining of my "long post" hardly came across as a good faith attempt on your part to hear my side of the story. Nightscream (talk) 18:09, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

The point of WP:ER and WP:3RR is to discourage people from doing the same thing again and again without discussion. You might well be right about the content issue, but that isn't the point. The point is whether the issue is at least arguable, and that's why 3RR's exceptions are as narrow as they are. When I find myself reverted, I try to apply some humility and ask myself whether the other editor might be right. I am a little bothered that there is no hint of this in your response. If you find yourself in a similar situation in future, will you handle it differently? Bovlb (talk) 20:47, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

I'd like to note a couple of other non-admin-like bits of behaviour: In a section below, Nightscream muses that DracoEssentialis may be a sockpuppet of User:129.215.149.96. A stronger such claim is made on Talk:Touré#Users_using_sockpuppets_.28and_meatpuppets.29_in_this_discussion. Now for the non-admin-like bit of behaviour: if you mention someone on AN/I, and especially if you imply they're socking, you drop them a courtesy note on their talk page. No such note was posted on DracoEssentialis' talk page. Second, Nightscream accused DracoEssentialis of a "slimy smear tactic" for pointing out that one contributor to that talk page of the biography of a notable African American had a Ku-Klux-Klan logo on their user page. I wouldn't call that a slimy smear tactic, but reasonably fair comment under the circumstances. Lastly, the idea that DracoEssentialis is a long-time disruptive IP address from Edinburgh University does not make sense, especially as she is siding with the biography subject at Touré, and the Edinburgh IP address is accusing Nightscream of collusion with Touré. So I do think Nightscream could have handled this a bit better; as it is now, the Touré talk page is turning into a slap fest, which helps no one. (I can vouch for DracoEssentialis not being an Edinburgh IP, as I'm married to her, and she was neither in Edinburgh nor at her computer at the times in question.)

So, Nightscream, gently does it. Admins are – ideally – supposed to model behaviour that mitigates disputes, rather than inflaming them. (And the Touré talk page is jolly well, and sadly, inflamed now.) --JN466 00:37, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Sockpuppetry block on User:Schrodinger's cat is alive

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Schrodinger's cat is alive (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been blocked for apparently having a sockpuppet, ThatManAgain (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Schro is an editor who is otherwise in good standing, and I would suggest that this is a wrongful block that I would like another admin to look at.

The block seems to be very light on justification. There is no WP:SPI case, as far as I can see. Conceding that ThatManAgain is a relatively new user, the two users have barely interacted with each other according to Scottywong's Editor Interaction Analyser. There does not seem to be any previous, current and/or continuing disruption to the project.

It seems likely, then, that the explanation that Schro gave in her unblock request is likely. That the two users use the same connection and they happened to cross the same page, once at some point. If that was a reason to block, then you'd probably have to block me because no doubt I've crossed paths with half the staff and students of the NSW Department of Education. For example, one of the history teachers at my old school who, after discussion with me, has responded to vandalism on a couple of pages that I also edit occasionally. This is a weak case for a block.

Bwilkins (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) declined the unblock request on the basis of a decidedly unWP:AGF reading of what Schro said and then followed up with a suggestion that Schro do some performing pony tricks with WP:GAB to get unblocked. This isn't reasonable.

I realise that I'm sounding a bit militant here, but, hey, I'm definitely not in as good standing as Schro. ˜danjel 15:06, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Separately, while I'm posting as a result of discussion at Schro's talkpage, I think the block on ThatManAgain is also worthy of a second look. ˜danjel 15:11, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

• I would unblock both accounts. The cat is denying its him and a minor meat issue is the most there is - explain to him as the two accounts are from the same ip to avoid any editing that might appear meatish and unblock for time served. - Please don't do it again, or rather, allow an appearance of doing it even if you didn't and unblock. Youreallycan 15:15, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

User:Schrodinger's cat is alive has been unblocked by User:JamesBWatson.Edinburgh Wanderer 15:26, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

• I don't know how thoroughly Danjel checked the editing history, but there are several pages that both accounts have edited. Nevertheless, having read Schrodinger's cat is alive's comments and looked carefully at the editing history, I see no unambiguous evidence of abuse (both posting to the same AfD is the one that looks most doubtful), so I have unblocked Schrodinger's cat is alive. I do wonder why I wasn't consulted before this thread was started. My understanding is that, if you disagree with someone's action, the first thing to be done is normally to raise the matter with that person, and only to start administrators' noticeboard discussions if you have tried and failed to reach agreement. As for ThatManAgain, it seems to me that the only reasonable thing to do is to consult DeltaQuad, the blocking admin, because as far as I know he/she is the only person who knows what other account(s) he/she had in mind when blocking for "Abusing multiple accounts". JamesBWatson (talk) 15:34, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

My understanding is that blocks should be used to prevent disruption of the project and generally shouldn't be fired from the hip. ˜danjel 15:45, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

I have a general understanding of what the American colloquial expression "fired from the hip" means, but could you explain what you mean by it in this context? If you mean that you presume that I blocked without due consideration of the evidence, I can assure you that you are mistaken. I spent five minutes carefully considering the evidence. I would also have thought that AIV discussions should not be "fired from the hip": your failure to consult the relevant people before starting this discussion, suggests that you may like to think about whether your house is made of glass. I have also just looked at your posts to User talk:Schrodinger's cat is alive, and I do wonder why you thought such an aggressive response was the right thing to do first, rather than beginning by politely consulting the relevant people. JamesBWatson (talk) 16:04, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

You say that you gave the situation due consideration, and, yet, you blocked a user in good standing on the basis of what? There was no disruption to the project, ongoing or otherwise, there was no SPI case, no other complaint anywhere else. Why don't you leave the holier-than-thou and innocence-abused attitudes behind and just leave a mea culpa? ˜danjel 16:12, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

• So this is one of those mornings I woke up to one of those 'you've been taken to ANI' messages. Nice and I did not even know what this could have been about. I go with JamesBWatson's comment in the fact that I was not consulted at all either before the issue was taken here. If you need the link, it's in the block message or right here for you. Anyway, I'll speak more to my block below, but just for the record, I don't need an SPI to issue blocks, I can call it as I see it without an SPI. -- DQ (ʞlɐʇ) 17:14, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

User:ThatManAgain

...is still an open issue for discussion. ˜danjel 15:28, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

As the user has only a few recent edits I suggest leaving him blocked unless he requests unblocking. Youreallycan 15:30, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Strikes me that this is a particulary bad way to welcome and encourage a new editor. ˜danjel 15:32, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Well he did have a chat with his amigo and with his first edit he then opened a ADF discussion - not bad for a newbie - I say, let him explain if he wants unblocking - Youreallycan 15:37, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Who are the socks? I see 4 edits from ThatManAgain on Carratu International, none of which seemed contentious in the light of edits from the one other intervening editor. Where's the disruption? ˜danjel 16:17, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

• So my block was done on the basis of not knowing who the master was, and was done because the likelihood that a new user, would not be able to pull of an AFD nomination in so few edits. That combined with the policy WP:ILLEGIT #2 which says "Editing project space: Undisclosed alternative accounts should not edit policies, guidelines, or their talk pages; comment in Arbitration proceedings; or vote in requests for adminship, deletion debates, or elections." is why I issued my block. Could it of been a meatpuppet, I doubted that fact unless the person was standing over their shoulder and told them to type ] into the AFD. New people don't just know project acronyms like that. So with that being the case, I don't have to make the differentiation between WP:SOCK and WP:MEAT as WP:MEAT states "For the purposes of dispute resolution, the Arbitration Committee issued a decision in 2005 stating "whether a party is one user with sockpuppets or several users with similar editing habits they may be treated as one user with sockpuppets."". So my block is completely valid and I will not stand down from it. I'm not pointing the finger of the master at anyone, but the technical trail lead for at least a discussion. -- DQ (ʞlɐʇ) 17:14, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Let me get this straight. You blocked this user on the basis of:

• The fact that s/he opened an AfD;
• Knew some WP acronyms;
• A suspicion that he was a sock;

...and nothing more. No apparent disruption. No complaints at any noticeboard. No CheckUser involvement (I note that you are not a CheckUser).

Are you serious? Of course this should have been discussed, perhaps at SPI or here or wherever else, beforehand. You have the temerity to say that you should have been personally consulted before this discussion, yet you act without any consultation at all on the basis of nothing more than suspicion and block a new user? No wonder we have issues with attracting and retaining editors.

I don't know if ThatManAgain is a sock or not, but, you're right, it does deserve discussion. As does your action here as an admin.˜danjel 17:49, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

CheckUser Note

←Alright, so I have been asked to look into this in my role as a Checkuser. I will preface all of this by saying that the range that these accounts are operating on is large, and according to my research is problematic on other sites as well. From a purely technical stand point, the following accounts are  Confirmed:

• Schrodinger's cat is alive (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
• ThatManAgain (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)

The following account is highly  Likely related to the above two:

• Hydeblake (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)

That said, Schrodinger's cat is alive (talk · contribs) and ThatManAgain (talk · contribs) tend to edit within hours of each other, but when they do 99% of the time, their useragent is different. So, this could mean that the person gets up and spends an hours worth of time changing computers with the intention of throwing off a CheckUser, or the story that Schrodinger's cat is alive is telling is correct and the IP range is shared but they are two people editing from two different computers. I will note though, that their useragents have overlapped before. Additionally, there is some "editing while logged out" going on. For obvious privacy reasons, I will not publicly release the IP. That said, it appears that ThatManAgain (talk · contribs) is the one doing the editing via that IP given that useragent matches. Lastly, as I said before, the ISP that they are editing via has been blacklisted on a number of sites for excessive spamming and torrents. So, take all of that as you will. Tiptoety 18:01, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

OK, so all we have is some very circumstantial evidence that appears well explained by what Schro has already said (keeping in mind that Schro is a user who is otherwise in good standing). All being told, there would be no gain for Schro to use a sock in the way that would be suggested from ThatManAgain's edits (being that the one apparently contentious edit where the two users overlapped was an AfD that ended non-contentiously). If ThatManAgain has been editing under an IP, as suggested, then it's entirely possible that s/he does have more experience with acronyms.

I suggest that the way forward to to WP:AGF and unblock ThatManAgain's account with some stern advice to both users to avoid creating a perception that they're related. ˜danjel 18:12, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Danjel, an important thing to realise is that administrators and checkusers are entrusted by the community to make judgements. Very often those judgements have to be made on the balance of evidence, where there is no absolute certainty. If you disagree with another person's judgement, it is helpful to politely raise the matter with that person. My best judgement at the time when I blocked was that the evidence strongly suggested sockpuppetry. My judgement at the time when I unblocked was that new evidence had cast enough doubt to encourage me to give the user the benefit of the doubt. It is perfectly reasonable for another person to hold the opinion that one or other of those judgements was unwise, but holding such an opinion is not justification for ranting about how grossly unreasonable I have been, that I "shoot from the hip", that I have a "holier-than-thou" attitude, and so on and so on. JamesBWatson (talk) 20:06, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

You are entrusted to make judgements, absolutely. However, the community including myself expect those judgements to be made on the basis of black & white policy. Where there's some doubt, we expect the situation to be discussed.

In this case, there wasn't even confusion. There was nothing more than suspicion. There was inarguably no disruption occuring, and there was no reason to believe that disruption would occur. Basicly put, there was no part of WP:BLOCK#Common_rationales_for_blocks that was (or is; ThatManAgain is still blocked) at issue here. The net result is that one user who is otherwise in good standing got blocked and a new user is blocked for... suspicion of "Abusing multiple accounts: Inappropriate use of alternate account". This is shooting from the hip. I can't even call it shooting first and asking questions later, because questions weren't asked. all I can see here is defensive circling of the wagons to avoid any taking of responsibility for one wrongful block, and another block made on top of that wrongful block. ThatManAgain should be unblocked, and an apology should be made to him/her for involving him/her in this mess before we lose him/her as a productive editor.

This is not OK. The community expects better.˜danjel 00:59, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

• Holy cheese and rice. The editor admitted to chatting with their friend, then editing the same article. I politely declined the first unblock, and gave them FRIENDLY advice on how to compose a new unblock that would address it and get them unblocked. In short, I highly suggested the re-request unblock and pointed them to GAB where it says "show the community it won't happen again". Suddenly I'm asking for some dog-and-frickin-pony show? No. All I said was "do another unblock that says this you'll get unblocked". What a bloody waste of time some people like to perform around here. A single declined unblock, and someone else gets their shorts in a knot instead of doing the right thing. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 20:34, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
• The checkuser evidence combined with Scottywong's tool points in the direction of a sock connection between Schrodinger's cat is alive and Hydeblake.  --Lambiam 21:15, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
  • Wouldn't the actual theorem suggest the hypothesis that neither the editor nor the IP actually exist until they log in? That statistically, it could be any one of us and that by sheer chance it's not? FWIW, I do believe I'm Drmies. Drmies (talk) 21:39, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
    • With probability greater than zero you are a Boltzmann brain, though.  --Lambiam 22:35, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
• I don't remotely agree with Daniel's interpretation. There is strong evidence of sockpuppetry. (I unblocked because I decided to give the benefit of a small amount of doubt.) If it isn't one person then it is meatpuppetry. Contrary to what you say, there was disruption, in the form of one account supporting the other in an AfD. Daniel, you refer to "wrongful" blocks as though that were an objective fact. It isn't: it is your judgement. JamesBWatson (talk) 08:25, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

The CheckUser casts sufficient doubt on your "strong" evidence by pointing to the different useragents used by the two editors. If there was meat puppetry in the AfD (Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Carratu_International), it isn't (and wasn't) a very effective strategy. Where was the benefit gained in using a meat puppet to do what Schro could do just as effectively her/himself? If you suggest that this was an attempt to pile on the votes, then (a) how did Schro see that that was needed; and (b) why didn't s/he follow through and actually pile on the votes?

What did DeltaQuad have to go on in the first instance? There was no SPI report and no CheckUser involvement (until now). So why was the block given in the first place? On the basis of "again" in the username? Where did the suspicion (because that's all we had, and all we still have) come from? That there was no discussion or investigation or 'anything prior to this block says that this is inarguably a wrongful block in contravention to WP:BLOCK. ˜danjel 10:50, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

That's your very poor judgement speaking again. It was a fully-valid block according to that policy. Your bizarre interpretation is not getting you anywhere, except causing additional embarrassment for the now-unblocked user. Suspicion is enough. Stop screwing with the poor editor - you're making them (and yourself) look bad. Your involvement in this has been poor from the start. Drop the stick. Oh, and if you don't know the different between a WP:BLOCK and a WP:BAN yet, even more reason to move along (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 10:56, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Instead of just saying that it's poor judgement on my part and that it was a fully valid block etc., then how about you explain how it is compliant with policy instead of circling the wagons? A new user has been blocked, for no good reason. That's the situation. It's abhorrent.

Separately, yeah, I wrote ban rather than block, quickly fixed. But, whatever helps your ad hominem case. Pointing it out makes you look like a tool. ˜danjel 11:05, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

And now you're warning me about personal attacks? Have you tried reading that policy before you make such accusations? Funny how you accuse me of such where none exist, yet include your own. Brilliance - sheer brilliance. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 11:10, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

So would you like to explain how pointing out a minor mistake on my part that I quickly fixed was relevant to this discussion? It isn't. It was an argument "to the person" rather than to the actual content.

While we're on the topic of reading things we link: from WP:DUCK: "The duck test does not apply in non-obvious cases. Unless there is such clear and convincing evidence, editors must assume good faith from others." Emphasis added. ˜danjel 11:17, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Can a "non-involved" Admin go over this?

I'd like to ask that a non-involved Admin look at this, because it's clear that this is going to get nowhere when people are unwilling to take responsibility and just fix the situation.

The issues at hand as I see them are that: (a) A new user has been blocked on the basis of suspicion, and nothing else and this damages the project; (b) The blocking admin put on the block without any discussion, complaint or consultation with, for example, a CheckUser; (c) There was no disruption to the project and there is no continuing disruption to the project.

Either explain how the above is acceptable per Misplaced Pages policy/practice or do what DeltaQuad, JamesBWatson and BWilkins are unwilling to do and work on a way to repair the situation. ˜danjel 11:24, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

I've reverted the attempt to close this discussion by Bwilkins before I posted the above because he is clearly and unambiguously WP:INVOLVED. This was raised on Bwilkins talkpage (diff), but the response was a revert with an abusive edit summary (diff). ˜danjel 11:33, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

So, are all three admins you mentioned above "involved", and not just BWilkins? Because none of them appear to be actually involved in the way I think you mean; and searching for an "uninvolved" admin does not mean finding one who agrees with you when the majority do not. The blocked user can simply post an unblock request. They have yet to do that. Doc talk 11:48, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Am I missing something, or are you seriously arguing that this was a bad block because the checkuser that confirmed these editors was carried out after the block and not before it? Is it perhaps that you feel it is only socks and not masters which should be blocked? Sorry if these seem like very simple questions, but I don't actually see that you've answered them in between all the polemic you're firing around. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 11:49, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

• I'm pleased to see SC has been unblocked; as editors go there are few more industrious when it comes to getting articles promoted to GA. As for the "meat puppetry", none of the edits were undertaken to avoid a 3RR violation so I question whether there should have been an immediate block as well. I don't see the harm in two real-life acquaintances collaborating on an article, all they need to be aware of is that their edits won't be considered independent with respect to 3rr/edit-warring considerations. Betty Logan (talk) 11:59, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Evading the three revert rule is by no means the only reason for blocking sockpuppets. JamesBWatson (talk) 12:13, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Doc: it seems pretty clear that the three admins above are circling the wagons. It is their decisions that are in question, and therefore they are involved. In the real world, if I and a couple of my colleagues did the wrong thing, it would be unreasonable for us not to recuse ourselves from "resolving" the situation. That would be because we're "involved".

Thumperward: No worries. I'm probably struggling to be clear because I'm saying roughly the same thing over and over trying to get some concession from the other side (instead I get told that I need a clue). The CheckUser's statement, together with the circumstantial evidence, leads to significant doubt about the point that the two users are one. I personally believe that socks and masters should both be blocked, but this does not seem to be the circumstance here. What seems to be the circumstance is that a new user has been and is still blocked based on "suspicion".

So, yeah, I'm not happy about the process. Because if blocks can be handed out on the basis of suspicion without investigation and those decisions then become sacrosanct, then there is a real problem with how the community works. But the other problem is that a new user has been blocked needlessly. ˜danjel 12:02, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

I would agree that hunch blocks are bad if they are baseless, but we have never required checkuser prior to sockblocks and if an admin has the savvy to identify socks without a checkuser then it that can only benefit us. In this case, considering the facts (SC and TMA are on the same IP: SC and TMA discussed TMA's plan to AfD an article on his first edit; the first comment at that AfD is from SC), it can certainly be argued that SC went about the process of introducing this new user to Misplaced Pages in a way which brought suspicion upon himself, because the pattern of edits is literally identical to that of any average AfD sock. Now given that SC has until now been in good standing and that the disruption here was minimal, would I have leapt straight to a dual sockblock? No, but it would not be baseless to do so. In the end this has been unpleasant for a number of reasons, most of which is due to editors assuming the worst of one another. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 12:21, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Am I missing something? Apart from Danjel, 11 editors have posted to this discussion, seven of them administrators, unless I have miscounted. Asking for more admins to comment looks strikingly like admin shopping. Could it just be, Danjel, that consensus is against you, and that you would be better off accepting the fact and dropping the stick? JamesBWatson (talk) 12:10, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

You're right! Several editors and admins have posted to this. This is the breakdown:

Danjel (Editor): Does not support block

Youreallycan (Editor): Does not support block

EdinburghWanderer (Admin): Non-commital Comment

JamesBWatson (Involved Admin): Supports block

DeltaQuad (Involved Admin): Supports block

TnXMan (Editor): Supports block

Tiptoety (CheckUser): Non-commital Comment

Bwilkins (Involved Admin): Supports block

Drmies (Admin): Non-commital Comment

Lambian (Editor): Non-commital Comment

Erm... I wrote that I saw evidence for sock puppetry by SC.  --Lambiam 13:13, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Doc9871 (Editor): Non-commital Comment

BettyLogan (Editor): Does not support block

Thumperward (Admin): Does not support block

That's not a very clear consensus your way when you take out the involved admins... Apologies in advance if I have misrepresented (1) anyone's positions or simplified complex positions as either for, against or non-commital; (2) an editor as an admin or vice versa. ˜danjel 12:22, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Facepalm Doc talk 12:24, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

This user is unblocked, yes? After properly requesting unblock and agreeing not to cause the problem again? The block was valid (and I would have Supported it - and the unblock - on the merits), and it's already been lifted. What did this dead horse do to you, Danjel? UltraExactZZ ~ Did 12:36, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

User:Schrodinger's cat is alive has been unblocked, yes. User:ThatManAgain, the new user who probably has no clue what happened (there's not even a block template on his/her talkpage for him to appeal against) is still blocked. Schro can fight for him/herself at the moment, I'm advocating for ThatManAgain. ˜danjel 12:40, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

I've posted a note at Thatmanagain's talk page, explaining the block and showing how to make an unblock request. I absolutely and categorically oppose an unblock prior to that unblock request - but if they show that they understand what happened, and that they'll edit in other areas from Scrhodinger's Cat, I don't see why they could not be unblocked. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 13:01, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Noted. It's not the outcome I want, obviously, but it's a way forward and you've done a good job of saying how to move forward for that user. I would suggest also that anyone reviewing his unblock request take special care with a new user, but don't know how to word that properly. Happy for the above to close (now), but still not happy about the below. ˜danjel 13:05, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

That's why I put it as I did - you're right, they don't know. But if we unblock without helping them understand what happened and why, then they're just gonna get blocked again. The critical point is to edit in areas where Schrodinger's Cat isn't editing - that reduces the possibility of another block like this one. My wife edits once in a long while, and I stay right the hell away from those articles for that specific reason - no need to tempt fate. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 13:09, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Yeah. I see your point. I work in schools, but I try to be very careful about who knows that I edit here (primarily because I'd like to avoid telling my supervisors that I won't "spruce" up work-related articles for them as I have had to say once in the past). Wife is utterly disinterested in wikipedia (which is a shame because she's a researcher with substantially better writing skills and knowledge about certain things than I). *shrug*

Can you close everything above now? Cheers. ˜danjel 13:17, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Bwilkins

Bwilkins has twice closed this discussion despite his clear involvement. This is a clear breach of WP:INVOLVED, particularly where a consensus has not completely formed. ˜danjel 12:28, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Consensus has been formed by the community long before you became involved in this single case. The newer consensus to come is your upcoming block for disruption and edit-warring. You cannot invoke involved because the reason I'm closing it is to protect both YOU and the editor you claim to be protecting. If you want WP:INVOLVED, just post one more misguided post on my talkpage that shows your ignroance for policy, and your contempt for this commmunity ;-) (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 12:40, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Discussions at ANI are routinely closed when either A) the issue is resolved, B) The discussion comes to a consensus, or C) when no further administrative action is requested/required/warranted. For the first section, A) applies. For the second, I look to point C) - What administrative action are you looking for? UltraExactZZ ~ Did 12:39, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

I've responded to you above. We're not arguing for Schro (who's situation is resolved, except for a messy block log, and I'm sure s/he doesn't care that much). User:ThatManAgain is still blocked so the issue is not resolved and further administrative action (or at least an explanation) is still required.

I've unclosed this again. I'm not going to do it again and give someone an excuse to block me for 3RR, but I think Bwilkins is in breach of WP:INVOLVED, so that's a second issue that needs a resolution. ˜danjel 12:43, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

I don't think it's 3RR you need to worry about; edit warring on ANI has always been spectacularly unwise, and Edit Warring is not defined solely by 3RR. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 12:47, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Admin actions (i.e., thread closure) by involved admins are meant to be unwise as well. So... ˜danjel 12:51, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Someone want to do the honour of blocking, I'm afraid the editor cannot understand WP:INVOLVED nor edit-warring. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 12:44, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

That doesn't exactly resolve the situation, does it? ˜danjel 12:47, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it does - the still-blocked editor can follow the same rules and policies that every fricking other editr has to follow without the Lone Ranger misquoting and misinterpreting the norms, policies, and common sense that this community has built for years. Don't you see: you have become the problem, and are destroying any possible solution. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 12:53, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

How? Put yourself in his/her shoes. There is no block template on their page. They probably won't be able to understand how to get through getting unblocked anyway, so how does closing this resolve the situation?

As for having me blocked, this is how the discussion has gone:

• Bwilkins: *involves self in discussion*
• Danjel: Asks for non-involved opinion
• Bwilkins: *closes thread in his favour*
• Danjel: reopens thread, points out WP:INVOLVED, asks Bwilkins not to close thread
• Bwilkins: *closes thread*
• Danjel: reopens thread, again points to WP:INVOLVED

Where's the resolution there? Or are you above the rule of WP:INVOLVED? ˜danjel 13:01, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

WTF? "In my favour?" My closure of the thread is well-explained, and I'm not sure how any of this involves me other than I declined an unblock and tried very hard to explain to the editor how to become unblocked. You really need to read and try to understand the most basic of policies around here before appointing yourself to be someone's laywer on this project. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 13:13, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Yes, in your favour. In favour of the position that you adopted and, whether by design or not, to head off having to explain your actions. Schro might not have an issue, but I have a problem with people who accept a position of power and then either abuse it or don't put the necessary effort in. You really need to read WP:INVOLVED or, if you can't do your job right, just hand back the mop. ˜danjel 13:27, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Slow down, take a step back, and relax. I've posted at ThatManAgain's talk page with a path forward. Now you need to stop with the disruption and the accusations. Disrupting ANI will get you blocked, and I don't give a good goddamn if other editors have done BAD THINGS or not - your conduct is at issue. It would be well for you to take a step back before you do get blocked. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 13:04, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, how is my conduct at issue? Because I have a problem with an admin working in breach of WP:INVOLVED? What's the point of having WP:INVOLVED if the moment it's brought up it's either blank ignored (as by Bwilkins) or the result is the party who brought up the issue is considered to be conducting himself badly? The admin conduct here has been shameful from the block on suspicion (without a template) to the circling of the wagons to the involvedness. I've seen first grade teachers work better with their charges. It speaks to a very broken culture. ˜danjel 13:07, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Dispute with Editor 7&6=thirteen

Yesterday I made an edit to Edward Terry Sanford's See also section which had a link to List of United States Chief Justices by time in office. Since Sanford was never Chief Justice so a link to the list is irrelevant. This particular associate justice served under just one chief justice and most AJs serve at most under two or three. How is a link to a list of mostly people he had no association with relevant. There is a SA link to cases of the Chief Justice(Taft) he served under and I have no problem with that.

I've noticed similar links to the list article in other justice articles and this morning and began taking out more See Also links. This editor, 7&6=thirteen , reverted my Sanford edit and a few others I do. I reverted them and also posted to a talk page so to work this matter out.

This editor though has been belittling me and I'm getting a little tired of it. My edits and even reversions were never personal however he wrote "Nobody else is "confused." Its not confusing to readers." Why the bringing up of confused? I never use the word. He addressed me as Mr. William before listing every post I changed. Nobody calls me Mr. William. It's obviously a first name.

My reply to him- An offer to get another editor to mediate. His response included more swipes at me 'your new found epiphany'. J A check of my edit history will show me regularly cleaning up See Also sections including in one particular instance where I took out some 20 or so links and which he didn't like but another editor ruled in my favor. It's possible he's carrying a chip on his shoulder from that or he thinks he owns certain articles. I'll let somebody else determine that. No epiphanies, just me poking around parts of wikipedia I follow and making attempts to improve articles in certain subject areas that interest me.(Golf, Baseball, Judges and law articles, aviation incidents, Florida, town articles to name a few)

I told him I didn't like his attitude(The harshest thing I said about him to that point was 'one editor disagrees', So he replied. 'I'm sorry that you don't like my attitude. WP:Civil precludes me from discussing yours.' He also wrote 'You either overlooked or chose not to respond to my proposal. Duly noted.' I went to the talk page, made my points, offered to settle this through the help of another editor and promised to maintain the status quo till the matter was settled(I've made no more changes since I made that offer), but get this reply 'While I have no problem with mediation or arbitration in theory (I do that for a living), I don't think we are there yet. Let's get the input from the other concerned editors. This is actually a bigger issue (with other implications) than this relative 'tempest in a teapot.' I expect that we can come to a consensus, and do this through reason.' Is he now saying I can't reason?

He defends the links because they have been up for a long time but where in WP does it say something can't be removed just because of the length of time something has been in an article.

So I brought the matter here and I'll inform him as soon as I leave....William 15:46, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

I stand on the record. I am not belittling anyone. If I got his name wrong, I am sorry. No offense was made and none was intended. I was suggesting that we ALL should try to come to a reasoned consensus. Hypothetically, even if WilliamJE and I agree, it is no substitute for informed debate and consensus by the larger community. When I said, "This is actually a bigger issue (with other implications) than this relative 'tempest in a teapot.' I expect that we can come to a consensus, and do this through reason." I was trying to work through to consensus and to put the matter in perspective. I was not impugning WilliamJE's intellect or rationality. In fact, I was hopeful that we could harness it and come to a good wikipedia solution without intervention by third party intermediaries. WilliamJE is being overly sensitive. It isn't about him. It isn't about me. It's about coming to a good solution through recognized debate and decision making.

I note that he indulged his editing decision by vandalizing a bunch of pages. He then invited debate and told me to go to the judiciary page. He continued his editing, notwithstanding calling for a truce. I went to the section of the page that he created, and tried to engage him and other editors. I also asked him nicely to stop the wholesale changes, and to engage in the debate he started. Those pleas have been ignored.

I truly don't understand his complaint, if there is one in there. Apparently he doesn't want the matter debated on its merits. If this is a personal complaint, I request that you DISMISS it outright. If this is an attempt to invoke arbitration of mediation, I have not and do not consent. While I could ask for retribution from the Administrators, I choose not to do that. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 16:07, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Retribution? For what? Complaining? I don't see the vandalizing you refer to.  --Lambiam 21:53, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

I am not vandalizing and this editor is more than sufficiently smart enough to know the difference. The edits are ones he did and the attitude he's shown in reply to my removal of them gives me the impression he feels he WP:OWNs these articles or at least the parts he's worked on. See this content dispute between the two of us from Feb 2012 for why I get that impression. The See Also section in question was bursting at the seems and not in line with similar sections in other justice articles. I cleaned out the clutter and he took objection.

BTW at the talk page where these most recent See Alsos are being discussed, the only two editors to chime in so far have supported my stance....William 13:18, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

This editor also accuses me of violating a ceasefire I called for here. I clearly wrote "In the meantime I won't change anything more and you don't do reversions either. The status quo till this matter is settled. Agreed?" A check of my user history will show I haven't edited one single judge article since making that call. He is misrepresenting what took place....William 13:18, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

William, what administrative action(s) are you requesting exactly? After looking at this, what I see looks like a run-of-the-mill content dispute. Wouldn't it be better to wait and let this discussion pan out?
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► 16:20, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

I am waiting to see how the discussion pans out. My coming to here was to get this editor to stop his jabs at me. He's made his dislike of my edits into a way to make subtle personal attacks....William 13:18, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

(As an aside, I know 3 unrelated families whose last name is "William" (no, not Williams). As well, calling someone "Mr *insert first name*" is usually a sign of respect) (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 10:59, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is big family. I'd never run across this particular editor before. In a place that is rife with pseudonomyous names, it was a mistake as to which name he was using. Not unlike calling the former president of Korea Mr. Il, not Mr. Kim. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 12:09, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

He has come across me before and we had a content dispute in February 2012. Posts are here and here. This dispute was settled through a third editor at the talk page. Like this dispute it was also about the See also section. Note I offered to settle this the same way, he refuses. I am still willing to settle it the same way.

As for the use of Mr. in front of my name, I also go by Bill(JE as in WilliamJE my WP identity are the first two letters of my last name), when someone puts Mr. in front of it I'm reminded of this and when addressing a person as Mr. Bill the Bill in question may not feel very flattered. In the light of the tone he's taken and the use of word retribution, confusion, and vandalism towards me, the calling of me as Mr. William makes me think his use of Mr. wasn't sincere....William 13:18, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

I think that a generous dose of good faith is in order followed by some tea. At this point it would be best to drop any differences and continue in the content discussion. Fortunately, there are more editors who have joined the discussion so the two of you don't have to continue as before. I don't see anything sanctionable here...these sort of civility issues are also best reported at WQA.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► 14:03, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Apparently Bill has a better memory of the prior content dispute than I. In fact, I have no memory of it at all. I expect that I will go along with whatever the consensus is. I have no interest in going to war or arbitration over a minor content dispute. That of course is just my perspective. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 16:32, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

I always liked "Mr. Bill." But at the time I was inadvertently butchering "WilliamJE" nom de plume, I was thinking William was his surname, and the connection never crossed my mind. That WilliamJE is keeping a log of our contacts brings to mind questions. But I am going to assume ], as this whole exercise has been unproductive for me, and a diversion from preferred activities. I will no longer monitor this discussion, so please let me know what, if anything, you decide to do. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 02:59, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

User:Anatomist90 image spam

This user seems to be doing one single thing on Misplaced Pages: Rapid-fire posting of his own photos of cadaver dissections with no regard for policy or guidelines and no communication. Images are usually added to a gallery rather than integrated within the text. There are often minor variations of the same image. Some images are only tangentially related to the article and there is usually only a simple title for a caption rather than an explanation. He has 1,075 live edits after 141 deletions, and a quick scan of his history suggests that nearly all of his edits represent this problem. He has never once edited an article talk page and has made only two edits in user talkspace. He often makes 20-40, sometimes as many as 70 (April 11), of these edits per day, typically with only one or two minutes between each one. He has had numerous warnings and one block related to image posting, with four warnings closely related to the problem I describe here. He has not responded to these warnings, neither by communication nor by change in behavior.--Taylornate (talk) 18:47, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

With respect to "he has not responded to these warnings". Let look at this one . The user in question has responded here and appears to be a "she" not "he".

A couple of these are not "warning" but rather guidance. This is some advice and looking at one of the pages in question we do need a better image to replace this . The other one starts with "I am very pleased to see you contributing"

The user in question also is from Romania and there might be a bit of a language barrier. I think we need to assume good faith at this point.

I have send the user in question a well deserved barnstar! And will provide a little further guidance. I make at least 70 edits a day. Hardly a judge of a bad editor. In fact if you look at the number of images they have uploaded it is greater than 1000. So they are not adding the same image to every page. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 19:58, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

In Romania the given name "Adrian" is normally male.  --Lambiam 22:27, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Question: Where is the multiple attempts to discuss this problem with this user that the OP has surely attempted before coming to "the court of last resort"? All I see is one message 7 days ago but no further attempts at resolving this with the user or attempting to get people involved with pictures (or anatomy articles) to help weigh in. Can you go back and try to work with the user? Hasteur (talk) 20:44, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

I should have said I don't think she is doing this in bad faith, but I don't know what to do if she won't communicate and I'm frustrated. I think we can agree there is a communication problem and I don't understand how I am to go back and work with her. I guess there is no harm in posting a couple more messages even though I don't expect a response. If this is not the right place to post, then I think the welcome message at the top could be more clear. Help from administrators and experienced editors sounds like what I want and I don't see anything about "court of last resort" or multiple attempts to discuss. I did consider posting to the anatomy project page instead, maybe that would have been better.--Taylornate (talk) 21:43, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

The user in question has emailed me personally. I am happy to continue providing feedback/guidance. Ping me if you have further concerns regarding anything to do with medicine.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 18:41, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

SPA rv warrior sock?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Veidaknyge (talk · contribs) looks like a SPA engaging in disruptive revert warring. I don't indent to fight it out with a SPA, but I'd suggest an admin review of his edits, and, admin/community-consensus-pending, a block and revert of his edits. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me} 22:08, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

• This is a little unusual. 14 contribs and they are all reverts of one editor. I've looked at a couple of pages, and there seems to be some back and forth reverting going on between the same few editors. I also notice that one admin has been previously into some of these articles, and I will drop him a note. Dennis Brown (talk) (contrib) 23:46, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
  • I think it is obvious that Veidaknyge is somebody's sock created so that their primary account would not be associated with that series of reverts. Anyway, as I said above, I have little interest in this, but I consider the SPA's actions disruptive. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me} 00:17, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
• I notified Drmies since he has made edits on several of these, and did a little digging of my own. While I see some back and forth reverting, it is usually two edits a day, every couple of months. Not exactly warrior efforts. Veidaknyge just started today and while his edits have been narrow in scope, having a single purpose account isn't against policy, it is what you do with it that counts. In this case, his edits *appear* to be consistent with previous consensus, but feel free to provide a diff if a consensus was formed and I'm mistaken, as there is nothing on the talk pages recently, except a couple of editors talking about how it shouldn't have that same info on one of the articles. Otherwise, it seems a part of WP:BRD with a lack of D. The more steady state of the articles appears to be without the material. I also didn't see anyone actually approach the editor on his talk page, except for a notice for this ANI, which might have been the better place to start. As to the merits of including or not, I would leave that up to the editors of the articles as that is a content dispute. Regardless, I just don't see any evidence of what I would call warring, vandalism, sockpuppeting or abuse, and only a content dispute. Dennis Brown (talk) (contrib) 00:31, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
• I should add, that if you feel this is a case of sockpuppeting, and have more info than you have provided here at ANI, the proper place to go would be WP:SPI. Without a name to compare contribs to, or more specific information of some kind, I don't see an obvious connection to another editor. Dennis Brown (talk) (contrib) 00:38, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
  • Orionus (talk · contribs) went around reverting the changes of Mathiasrex (talk · contribs) to just about all these articles back in Feb. The reporting party reverted all of Orionus' changes, months later, quickly followed by Veidaknyge reverting those reverts. Orionus (recently inactive) and Veidaknyge (fresh off the boat) may be unrelated, but there are systematic reverts happening between a relatively few editors. Doc talk 02:08, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
    • I noticed the edits (including Drmies reversions that deleted the info on some) and checked other contribs, but what makes me hesitant to jump to conclusions is the amount of time between reversion, two months. There is no advantage that I am aware of to using a sock when you wait 2 months between edits. Without more evidence, it looks more like a group dispute happening in slow motion, which isn't particularly troubling yet. Attempting to talk to Veidaknyge directly on this talk page would have been the best first step, however. Dennis Brown (talk) (contrib) 02:51, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
  • Perhaps. I personally think Veidaknyge may not respond, but you are certainly correct that it's best to attempt to talk it out before running to AN/I. SPI seems to move about as quickly as a glacier, even for the duckiest of cases, as of late. All the editors have been notified, and with any luck they can explain why they are methodically reverting each other across several articles. Doc talk 03:03, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
    • Removing/adding of Polish names to some Lithuanian settlements has been a slow edit war for half a decade. I stopped caring about it years ago, but don't like seeing reverts w/out any explanation, as Orionus was doing. And the sudden appearance of a SPA to quickly revert me, which ignored my request to discuss thing, is a worrisome sign, and harks back to the battleground days where editors in this area would edit war much more actively. I'd hope that the community has not forgotten enough about this issue to tolerate a revert-dedicated SPA. I am all for AGF and such, but I bet you all of my 150k wikiedits experience this SPA is not there for the D part of BRD. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me} 03:28, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
      • Sorry, it is late and I may be dense or otherwise incapacitated, but is there any reason not to slap Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet_investigations/Jacurek/Archive in the edit summary that reverts those edits? Dennis, consider adding it to the SPI and mass-nuke their edits (and then tell me how to do it). An obvious sock is obvious: blocked indefinitely. If I'm wrong, I'm terrifically sorry and will apologize to the brand-new nameless editor with their boilerplate summaries. Piotrus, can you stick the appropriate template on their user page? Drmies (talk) 05:30, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I think you're a little confused. Jacurek would've been on the other side. This *might* be one of the Lithuanian-side users that got banned along with Jacurek.VolunteerMarek 05:34, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Well, maybe Western-Europeans shouldn't be asked to dance the polka then. Go ahead and change my indef-block explanation to "indef block for boilerplate and thus unexplained reverts by an obvious though at this moment unidentified sock of whichever persuasion." Marek, don't insult me by calling me a "little" confused. I may well be utterly confused. Drmies (talk) 05:43, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Didn't mean to insult you - ok, you were utterly confused. But it's ok, even I get confused with these things sometimes.VolunteerMarek 05:46, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

No offense taken. I'll file my desysop with my power bill and the Costco leaflet. Drmies (talk) 05:53, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Ah, I should have checked the block log, rm comments from a few minutes ago. I see you already blocked. It did look duckish, but didn't have a name to tie him to so I didn't want to start templating editors, and knew you would have the answer. Dennis Brown (talk) (contrib) 10:01, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Urgent need for admin support

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

ADMIN MuZemike has blocked JSeroff and our project creating accounts for 64 new student users. We need immediate action, I am teaching classes tomorrow, and students need access.

KSRolph (talk) 22:53, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

(del/undel) 23:03, 18 April 2012 MuZemike (talk | contribs | block) blocked Jseroff (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of indefinite (Abusing multiple accounts) (unblock | change block)
(del/undel) 23:03, 18 April 2012 MuZemike (talk | contribs | block) blocked Jolejolejole (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of indefinite (Abusing multiple accounts) (unblock | change block)
(del/undel) 23:03, 18 April 2012 MuZemike (talk | contribs | block) blocked 17calder (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of indefinite (Abusing multiple accounts) (unblock | change block)
(del/undel) 23:03, 18 April 2012 MuZemike (talk | contribs | block) blocked 17nbarch (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of indefinite (Abusing multiple accounts) (unblock | change block)
(del/undel) 23:03, 18 April 2012 MuZemike (talk | contribs | block) blocked 17bcachay (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of indefinite (Abusing multiple accounts) (unblock | change block)
(del/undel) 23:03, 18 April 2012 MuZemike (talk | contribs | block) blocked 17mcarter (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of indefinite (Abusing multiple accounts) (unblock | change block)
(del/undel) 23:03, 18 April 2012 MuZemike (talk | contribs | block) blocked 17ccho (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of indefinite (Abusing multiple accounts) (unblock | change block)
(del/undel) 23:01, 18 April 2012 MuZemike (talk | contribs | block) blocked 17uchoudhury (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of indefinite (Abusing multiple accounts) (unblock | change block)
(del/undel) 23:01, 18 April 2012 MuZemike (talk | contribs | block) blocked 17ccontreras (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of indefinite (Abusing multiple accounts) (unblock | change block)
(del/undel) 23:01, 18 April 2012 MuZemike (talk | contribs | block) blocked 17gcusing (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of indefinite (Abusing multiple accounts) (unblock | change block)
(del/undel) 23:01, 18 April 2012 MuZemike (talk | contribs | block) blocked 17kdreyfus (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of indefinite (Abusing multiple accounts) (unblock | change block)
(del/undel) 23:01, 18 April 2012 MuZemike (talk | contribs | block) blocked 17fforstall (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of indefinite (Abusing multiple accounts) (unblock | change block)
(del/undel) 23:01, 18 April 2012 MuZemike (talk | contribs | block) blocked 17hdyson (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of indefinite (Abusing multiple accounts) (unblock | change block)
(del/undel) 23:00, 18 April 2012 MuZemike (talk | contribs | block) blocked 17mfrick (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of indefinite (Abusing multiple accounts) (unblock | change block)
(del/undel) 23:00, 18 April 2012 MuZemike (talk | contribs | block) blocked 17gfrome (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of indefinite (Abusing multiple accounts) (unblock | change block)
(del/undel) 23:00, 18 April 2012 MuZemike (talk | contribs | block) blocked 17egarreau (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of indefinite (Abusing multiple accounts) (unblock | change block)
(del/undel) 23:00, 18 April 2012 MuZemike (talk | contribs | block) blocked 17sgerber (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of indefinite (Abusing multiple accounts) (unblock | change block)
(del/undel) 23:00, 18 April 2012 MuZemike (talk | contribs | block) blocked 17mgoetz (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of indefinite (Abusing multiple accounts) (unblock | change block)
(del/undel) 23:00, 18 April 2012 MuZemike (talk | contribs | block) blocked 17mgoldberg (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of indefinite (Abusing multiple accounts) (unblock | change block)
(del/undel) 22:57, 18 April 2012 MuZemike (talk | contribs | block) blocked 17mgray (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of indefinite (Abusing multiple accounts) (unblock | change block)
(del/undel) 22:57, 18 April 2012 MuZemike (talk | contribs | block) blocked 17kgreatwood (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of indefinite (Abusing multiple accounts) (unblock | change block) 

Is this what you are referring to? I'll go notify MuZemike (talk · contribs) of this thread. Reaper Eternal (talk) 22:58, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

I am very sorry for what has occurred above, as I was seeing many, many accounts being created off mobile ISPs and not what we would normally expect - which is off of school IPs. I have gone ahead and unblocked all of them. --MuZemike 23:08, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Hi Colleagues-

Yes, this is it. We still need to create 6 more accounts - hope they can be generated at the same IP? We understand, of course, that there can be problems and vandalism. High schools are targets, so no worries as long as we can push ahead and introduce students as newbies to contributing! KSRolph (talk) 23:13, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Normally instructors investigate WP:SUP beforehand. Good luck (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 23:18, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

See WP:ACC to create accounts. MBisanz 23:19, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

URGENT - Please suspend Autoblock - is blocking multiple accesses from this IP address and tomorrow all students will use same IP due to school's internet service provider set up. Please unblock librarian JSeroff and IP address. Thank you all for responses. KSRolph (talk) 23:39, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Hi Karen, the students who were unblocked above (and Jseroff) can now edit normally using their user accounts. If any additional students need to create accounts who don't have one, please e-mail me their desired usernames and e-mail addresses and I will create accounts for them immediately. I'll also e-mail you this information. Dcoetzee 23:46, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm not currently seeing any autoblocks at the moment. If there are any, they should expire by tomorrow. --MuZemike 23:59, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Friday, April 20 are the Misplaced Pages contributing classes, beginning 15:30 UTC. New users will be in Simple English. Sorry for complications and thanks to all. KSRolph (talk) 00:04, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

There are security issues, for this reason, usernames were not posted, working with school's regulations and protocols - not my own plan, otherwise would have utilized resources. Thank you kindly, KSRolph (talk) 23:52, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

• Administrators, please update your applicable administrative process checklist or best practices page with what occurred here so that the same mistake won't happen again. Thanks. Cla68 (talk) 00:25, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

I wouldn't classify this as a "mistake" on the part of Muzemike. 9 times out of 10, someone creating a bevy of new accounts is up to no good. That's why we have a limit of 5. I think his actions were entirely reasonable and any number of admins may have made the same judgement. I think a misunderstanding is a better way to characterize it.

For the record, nobody *needs* anything on Misplaced Pages. Editing here is not a right. However, I'm glad this was able to be worked out. Toddst1 (talk) 00:35, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

It's a right in the penumbra of the First Amendment.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:24, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

OK, but if I catch anyone emanating in the penumbras I'll revert him faster than you can say open and gross lewdness. EEng (talk) 02:24, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

There's no First Amendment right to edit Misplaced Pages anymore than there's a First Amendment right to have the New York Times publish someone's article. It doesn't apply to private organisations but to states and the Federal government. "the First Amendment has a penumbra where privacy is protected from governmental intrusion." but that doesn't seem relevant here. Dougweller (talk) 06:56, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

WP:FREESPEECH might be relevant. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 08:09, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm impressed with the rapid response of admins and our ambassador. Cool. High fünf to Alles. KSRolph (talk) 05:36, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

COI tag usage for Misplaced Pages articles used as educational assignments

Is it appropriate to tag Misplaced Pages articles whose development is part of an educational assignment under the Misplaced Pages:United States Education Program with {{COI}}? User:LauraHale has tagged Dimensional models of personality disorders with COI stating that the article is being used to assess student work. As she has accused participants of the Online Ambassador program of WP:MEATPUPPETRY, I'd like for non-involved admins to comment. See Talk:Dimensional_models_of_personality_disorders#Conflict_of_Interest_not_resolved as well as the article's AFD and Wikipedia_talk:Ambassadors#DYKs_and_students. Smallman12q (talk) 02:38, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

No, it's not. There is about as much COI there as between any random editor and article. Educational projects and editing have been an accepted part of Misplaced Pages for many years. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me} 03:23, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

That tagging is just silly. The COI tag is there to warn of potential spam, sneaky neutrality problems &c. Just how severe is the threat that students might gain marks on their assignment by, err, making a better article? bobrayner (talk) 04:38, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

This may be one of the most rediculous and boneheaded things I have ever heard. Misplaced Pages, with direct Foundation guidance and support, has long been involved in actively helping educators use the editing of Misplaced Pages, including creation and improvement of articles, as educational tools in their classrooms, per WP:SUP and the Online Ambassadors Program, among other initiatives. There have been probably hundreds of projects that have happened, and what this tagging does is the equivalent of giving these good-faith contributors the middle finger. No, no, and no. This needs to stop yesterday. Seriously, this cannot be allowed to go on. --Jayron32 04:57, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

• Folks, perhaps you would be willing to take your comments to the talk page of the article, where there is a post insisting that the lack of demonstrated consensus for removing the tag means that the tag must remain. So far, I'm seeing a pretty clear consensus in *this* discussion that the tag should go, but... Risker (talk) 05:05, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
• Facepalm . I agree with Jayron's assessment of the situation exactly, and I've delivered the seafood express forwith. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 08:07, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Oh dear me. Firstly, do editors not get informed that they're being hauled to ANI these days? Secondly, while the COI tagging of the article is plainly silly, there's still the matter of the alleged vote-stacking at DYK: is that something that we actually care about? Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 09:21, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

I had informed the user (rev).Smallman12q (talk) 11:38, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

My bad. Right: there seems to be consensus that the tag was inappropriate, and the editor who placed it has been informed of this discussion and declined to comment on it. Are we done here, or is the issue with DYK getting overloaded with a student project a) an issue at all and b) something which needs immediate action? Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 11:52, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

This tagging is one of the silliest things I have ever seen done by an established user. Kevin Gorman (talk) 15:24, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

The question is if we have a class of 50 students who write a DYK and than they all come and support it, is this a problem? Should we allow fellow classmates to review and promote each other GANs? If we have a group of editors who are brought here by a single person (their teacher) does this count as "recruiting new editors to influence decisions on Misplaced Pages".

Should their be community consensus to determine in what manner Misplaced Pages can be used to teach / what sort of class assignments are reasonable / what sort of over-site or review of students work is needed? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 19:19, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

It would be problematic for students to inappropriately use any of WP's peer-review processes, especially reviewing each other's articles. The profs are trying to use peer-review as a way to get more community involvement with their students work. That's a good thing. I don't think there is any other motive that I can see. Could you point me to the 50-student DYK and fixed GAN review you are describing? Before talking about draconian solutions, and before we start biting the students currently involved, it might be good to have a neutral assessment of the problems, based on real examples. The Interior (Talk) 19:44, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Sure these are not real examples but theoretical ones. My point is we should consider these issues ahead of time. An actual recent example of inappropriate use is listed here where a student nominating a single article for DYK after making 10 mainspace edits. And then before address the concerns at DYK nominates it for GAN. I came across a half dozen cases of this last semester. I do not think we need draconian measures or to bite anyone. Just may be but in requirements that new users make a certain number of edits to Misplaced Pages as a whole before bringing content to DYN or GAN. Anyway we should move to the Misplaced Pages:Education_noticeboard as this is what it is here for.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 19:55, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

User talk:Pureobjectivetruth possible sockpuppet

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User talk:Pureobjectivetruth is disrupting by removing speedy deletion tag from Horrification. That alone doesn't warrant bringing to ANI, but the username suggests he might be a sockpuppet, so I was wondering if anyone could go fishing for possible matches to other accounts this person may have used. Chutznik (talk) 03:46, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

● Outlook not so good. Doc talk 03:51, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

• No indication of socking, and it wouldn't be an issue for this board anyway. Also, Chutznik, "We are watching what you do on Misplaced Pages"? Please put your big brother back in your pocket. This is a simple case of some vandalism, that's all. Someone, please close. Nothing here for ANI to begin with.

Is Pumpie back?

Could some people who are more familiar with the sad old case of Pumpie (talk · contribs) have a look to see if Chuckles260 (talk · contribs) might be a sock of his? I'm not familiar enough with the old case to be certain enough to file an SPI, but some of his behaviour rings a bell (like, very poor English, posting machine translations from el-wp, stubborn unresponsive behaviour). See User talk:Chuckles260#Warning for a summary of problems. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:59, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Chuckles260 (talk · contribs) used to be Chuckles250 (talk · contribs), until this user got a 48 hours block for disruptive editing. After the expiry of the block, he/she decided to start with a new account. If both were accounts of Pumpie, this would be a case of full-fledged sock puppetry. --RJFF (talk) 07:17, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the info, I had missed that earlier account. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:39, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Having had a look at the contribs of all three, which is thankfully very short, I see there are commonalities among them. The lack of edit summaries, marking every edit as minor, the focus on Greek topics. However, I don't really see any connection between Pumpie and these two. The two Chuckles accounts do a lot of gnomish edits with a few mistakes with their edits removing refs, but otherwise they don't use the talk page so it's impossible to tell if they communicate in the same distinctive style that Pumpie did, which led to a lot of facepalming. The two Chuckles accounts are obviously connected but I don't see enough evidence that Pumpie is connected with the two. Blackmane (talk) 09:29, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

The 250 block is still in force, so shouldn't 260 be blocked for block evasion?  --Lambiam 13:24, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

He was blocked in March, not April. If I read 250's block log correctly, 260 was started a few hours before the block expired. I personally don't think it's such a big deal, but starting a new account is needless and certainly smacks of some kind of evasion. If it is any kind of clean start Chuckles should indicate such, but given the lack of communicative efforts they may have to be strongly urged to do so. Can we simply block 250 permanently? All of this says nothing about the Pumpie matter, of course. Drmies (talk) 15:20, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Request community ban for Nangparbat

user:Nangparbat is a long term sockpuppeter, edit warrior with those socks and major POV pusher. I believe the time has come for a total community ban on Misplaced Pages rather than just an indefinite the block he is currently under. For all his sockpuppets seeThe SPI archive For his latest see The case page for other see Here. Darkness Shines (talk) 07:21, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

• Comment: Not that I'd oppose this, of course, but why do we have this recent fashion that every de-facto-banned sockpuppeter needs to have their ban formally confirmed in this way? Why is the old habitual rule no longer good enough that indef-blocked users who then continue into a career of habitual sockpuppetry are treated as banned as a matter of course? (It's actually still written in WP:BAN: "In the event an indefinitely blocked editor has continued to be disruptive and no administrator is willing to unblock, they are considered de facto banned.") Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:38, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
  • Because, as is pointed out every time it is questioned, even a de facto ban is just that - de facto - and could, conceivably, be overturned by a single admin at any time should the user in question provide what they, but not necessarily the community, believes to be succificently convincing arguments - and, in addition, there is the possibility of somebody WP:WIKILAWYERING that they're not really banned and, thus, reverting on sight isn't kosher. A formal community ban, on the other hand, requires the consensus of the community to overturn, and allows for {{BannedMeansBanned}} reverting and hammering of sockpuppets on sight without any ambiguity in the least. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 08:01, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
    • En.wikipedia is not very good at process change, but this may be one area where we need improvement. bobrayner (talk) 11:57, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

I am requesting it as an editor has seen fit to replace the banned tag from Nangparbat's talk page. A prolific sockpuppeter like this needs to be community banned. Darkness Shines (talk) 12:13, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Darkness Shrines, the reason i removed the banned tag is because Nangparbat hasn't been banned and from all the ANI discussion i've seen in the old archives, there aren't any, and putting a banned tag without a discussion/conformation that he was doesn't make any sense to put it up there. True the guy is a socker. Soviet King :   Talk or Yell  13:41, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Soviet King's response shows exactly why "De Facto Ban" is pointless. "De Facto Ban" is no different from a regular block. And if someone decides someone else is De Facto Banned there's nothing to stop anyone from saying "no he's not" and removing the tag. Community Ban discussions eliminate edit warring over whether someone is banned or not, among many other things. - Burpelson AFB ✈ 17:04, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

• Endorse Having read the evidence in support of nefarious actions and seeing a user who has recently come back from semi-retirement to remove the block tag on very weak WikiLawyering grounds I agree with the assessment that this should be a de jure CBAN. Hasteur (talk) 13:50, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
• Support this ban: We don't want profilic sockpuppeters such as Nangparbat. High freaking time to throw this troll back under the bridge. Soviet King :   Talk or Yell  13:53, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
• Ban already. Pointless waste of time, this discussion. --regentspark (comment) 13:55, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
• SupportThe sooner the better, besides such abusers set a bad example, Lets say no to community headaches.-- ÐℬigXЯaɣ 17:00, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
• Support - Clearly needs it. - Burpelson AFB ✈ 17:04, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

User talk:173.163.76.157

User at IP address 173.163.76.157 seems to have a pattern of vandalism. Many revisions are small and easily overlooked (Special:Contributions/173.163.76.157. I'm going to go through some of those changes and double-check that they're legit. Just bringing this to someone else's attention. — OranL (talk) 07:44, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

• WHOIS shows that this may be a business class broadband customer, so the odds are reasonably high that the IP is static. The history does seem to be one of vandalism, some more obvious than others. The edits are a little stale for WP:AIV, but a softblock might be in order here. There could be several good editors behind that IP but there is obviously at least one petty and somewhat persistent vandal who likes to edit in a rather narrow time window. Dennis Brown (talk) (contrib) 12:42, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

 Done Blocked. ‑Scottywong| yak _ 15:37, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Feline1 again

Further to Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive745#Vandalism by long-term user Feline1 which resulted in a one week block, we now have this from Feline1 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) which is a blatant BLP violation. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 13:27, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Is it? I'm not sure I even know what a "BLP violation" is, but edit I made was supported by the existing references, so I felt I didn't need to add any additional ones. It's quite a notable fact. I think it merits being in the article. In fact, I don't really understand why this is on this Admin noticeboard, rather than the article talk page. Although doubtless I'll find out soon enough.--feline1 (talk) 13:38, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

You'll have to tell us where in the supporting reference the wording is that supports the claim "whom she had been grooming since his adolescence" is then? Since I, and doubtless 99.99% of other people, can't see it. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 13:40, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Well, again, I don't see why we're not having this discussion on Talk:Iris Robinson rather than here. Having just read WP:BLP, I think you're quibbling about the legal definition of "grooming"? In most jurisdiction, it's taken as inappropriate fraternizing of an adult with a minor, with the intent for having a sexual relationship with them. The article and sources already explain that she did exactly that with a teenage orphan. --feline1 (talk) 13:47, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

I was about to say the same thing. Nowhere does it say or suggest that phrase. As such, it's a violation of our biography of living persons policy. Do not add your own commentary or synthesis like that (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 13:43, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

I should add for the benefit of anyone unfamiliar with the term due to cultural difference, grooming refers to child grooming, especially due to the addition of the "since his adolescence" part. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 13:48, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

precisely! I thought it was a matter of public record? It's quite clear from the references already in the article (and is mentioned in the Iris Robinson Scandal article) that her 19 year old lover had been a family friend since his early teens. I don't really see what's controversial here, but you've already reverted my edit and I don't propose to get into an edit war about it.--feline1 (talk) 13:51, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) That you don't see what the problem is precisely the problem, and why action is needed to prevent similar disruption to other articles. It says nothing of the sort in the Iris Robinson scandal article, the closest it gets is "Billy was a close friend of Iris Robinson and she had known Kirk from childhood" (which is sourced) and neither that nor the source suggest there had been any grooming going on. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 14:07, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

With respect, the fact that they embarked upon a sexual relationship as soon as Kirk reached the age of consent clearly does suggest there had been grooming going on.--feline1 (talk) 14:15, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

That's not yours to interpret. At least not here. if you're not able to understand that then it would indicate that this isn't the project for you. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 14:20, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

I still suspect it would be more appropriate to have having this discussion on Talk:Iris Robinson than here. The content of the Child grooming grooming seems a good match for the reported facts of the matter (she had been a family friend of her lover since he was 9). Doing a google search for "Iris Robinson" and "grooming" gives about 10 thousand hits, so that's clearly an opinion which found a fair degree of support amoung the public. The first page of google hits has it expressed in the Guardian amoungst others, so these are not all gutter sources. I guess if it was to be mentioned in the Iris Robinson article it would be more appropriate to say something such as "which led to public accusations of grooming", with refs, rather than to simply state it *was* grooming. But to suggest that I should be banned from wikipedia for 'synthesizing' and 'interpreting' the connection seems quite disproportionate to me (particularly when one of those proposing it has a past history of hostile interactions with me).--feline1 (talk) 18:13, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

"A matter of public record" must still be reliably sourced, especially one with such deeply negative implications on a living subject. Given this account's history, I think it;s worth considering whether we're beyond cluebat time here. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 14:06, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Please read the ANI archive linked at the top, this is a recurring problem that a one week block has failed to solve. Struck due to amended comment during edit conflict 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 14:07, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

There has not been a 'recurring problem' of me violating WP:BLP on the Iris Robinson article, I've made constructive edits to it and contributed to its talk page several times over the years. I do, however, remember User:One Night In Hackney being rather unreasonably hostile towards me in the past. I doesn't seem their behaviour has changed at all in the intervening years.--feline1 (talk) 14:26, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

No, just violating BLP on other articles. Obviously I missed the part in policy that says you're allowed to BLP with impunity on other articles. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 14:31, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Respectfully disagree. The edit you refer to on Kenny Everett was a deliberate silly joke. The edit you are complaining about today was not, it was made in good faith, and simply seemed to me to be an accurate way to succinctly label a highly notable aspect of the subject matter. This has been characterised above by BWilkins as "synthesis" and by User:Thumperward are "interpretation". Perhaps as I'm more used to editing scientific articles, if I see something in an article which appears to fit an established definition/term/label, but isn't stated as such, then I'll generally add said term. --feline1 (talk) 15:09, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

"Silly joke"? 50.22.206.179 (talk) 15:41, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

"Silly joke" indeed. Feline1, you should have been blocked for that "joke". This is an encyclopedia, and we take biographies of living persons seriously. Your inappropriate comment about O'Connor runs afoul of WP:BLP, even though that article is not about her (you might want to see here for unblock requests we won't action - including jokes). I cannot fathom that you would entertain such writing on scientific journals either. Please understand this to be a final warning against such jokes, synthesis, and other similar improper editing on this project (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 16:11, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

I *was* blocked for it!--feline1 (talk) 17:59, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

I meant indefinitely. Didn't learn your lesson the first time, did you. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 18:35, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

As I already stated clearly above, my edit to Iris Robinson was *not* a joke! It was made in good faith. There was no applicable 'lesson' to be learnt from that other incident.--feline1 (talk) 19:09, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Well ... since you oddly don't see the similarity, have you learned your lesson this time? (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 21:03, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

I shall remain civil even though you are steadfastly goading me :) If you're asking me whether I can see that my edit (which I believed was supported by the refs) strayed too far into 'synthesis'/'original research' in the way that it was phrased, I say yes, I accept that. It asserted too much. I would know now not to phrase it like that. If enough notable, reputable, verifiable sources alleged grooming was involved (or she was convicted of it), then the article would be able to report that. But it cannot draw that conclusion off its own bat.--feline1 (talk) 21:30, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

{ec}Such editing not only falls under not only WP:SYNTHESIS but also WP:OR. Although, I don't edit scientific articles on Wiki, I do write engineering papers and reports where I'm expected to synthesise my results. This is exactly the wrong approach to writing on Wiki and you should think about being more liberal in the use of the Preview button prior to submitting. Also, your "silly joke" has gotten many an editor blocked in the past and it was rightly reverted as vandalism. Blackmane (talk) 16:12, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Reading some of the exchanges on feline1's talk page just made my brain melt.Chillllls (talk) 16:27, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Some of them? How do you think *I* felt, I had to read *all* of them!--feline1 (talk) 18:22, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

User page issue

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Hey guys. Just stumbled across User:Chaddy youngmoney. It was created last September and that revision feels a bit promotional in tone (and includes a minor's DOB), and a few days ago it was vandalised to become an attack page about the young rapper. The kid whose userpage it is hasn't edited since last September (and only made two edits total). I've blanked the page for the moment, but I reckon the best bet would probably just be to delete the thing. Jenks24 (talk) 16:17, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

I've deleted the page. If the user wishes to recreate their userpage later on, they may do so, but it seems wise to delete it if the history contains a promotional page with the DOB of a minor, and then an attack page. ItsZippy 16:28, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the quick response. Cheers, Jenks24 (talk) 16:36, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Users still autoblocked

Hi there. This is in reference to the above discussion about 64 or so students and teachers being blocked from editing. I received an email from editor User:KSRolph stating that she is still unable to edit Misplaced Pages or work on her project with her students because "A user of this IP address was blocked by MuZemike for the following reason (see our blocking policy): "Autoblocked because your IP address was recently used by "17ccho". The reason given for 17ccho's block is: "Abusing multiple accounts"." The screen shot she sent me says it's set to expire at 22:40 20 April 2012. KS is requesting that this autoblock be removed sooner for educational purposes. I'm merely a messenger (and not an admin!), so there ya go! SarahStierch (talk) 16:22, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

• I don't see anything there currently. Don't these autoblocks sometimes take a little while to "wear off"? or are any of the other accounts still blocked? I'll try and have a look, but I'm not good at this fancy footwork. Drmies (talk) 16:33, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

• I cleared all the autoblocks off all the accounts. Let me know if there are any more issues, since autoblocks tend to proliferate when multiple users share an IP. Reaper Eternal (talk) 16:37, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

• Reaper, what was it that you did? And how did you do it? Drmies (talk) 16:43, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks everyone. I'm sure I'll (or we!) will hear from KS of there are any other problems. SarahStierch (talk) 16:40, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

There should be something called an Autoblock ID in the screenshot she sent you. We would need that to clear the autoblock if it has not been already cleared. MBisanz 16:48, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Students got through throttles, and autoblock disappeared miraculously in the nick of time (thank you Reaper E). There are important take-aways from this. For one thing, I won't let regular teachers overrule my recommendation that usernames be created with unique passwords. I will also insist that the usernames not be created the day before the class... one picks ones' battles. The gang of 64 will now begin to edit and create in Simple English. Some were way in front on this, already nabbing image strings, etc. Others, well... I'll continue to support the effort. I recommended the Teahouse, let's see if they follow up. Thanks for support of all, KSRolph (talk) 22:19, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

• I've managed to get our IP autoblocked for the same thing--I didn't know there was a limit to how many could sign up. The easiest solution is indeed to have students sign up individually before class, and then you'll only have the few that forgot to do so--fewer than five, hopefully. Happy days, Drmies (talk) 00:07, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Those of you who know more than I on this, might suggest where this kind of thing might get written in as a coursework protocol. It never occurred to me an entire school would have one IP (Comcast). Published 'guidelines' might help reduce outcomes such as this one. Now it turns out, pushback would have saved about 12 admins and all the students a measure of frustration, upset, and time. KSRolph (talk) 03:18, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Accusations of sockpuppet and meatpuppet solicitation by User:129.215.149.96

User::129.215.149.96 has accused me of soliciting sockpuppets and meatpuppets to join the discussion at Talk:Touré on whether to include Touré's surname in his article. This user also has commented, "This isn't surprising considering nightscream's slimy debating tactics and ad hominem smears." For the most part, 129.215.149.96 has failed to show any substantiation for these remarks. 129.215.149.96 has shown, however, that User:Halaqah is Touré, pointing to the numerous posts on Halaqah's talk page in which Halaqah indicates that he is Touré. I was not aware of this, as I certainly did not read Halaqah's talk page; I merely contacted editors who has previously expressed in an interest in the topic of including Touré's surname in the discussion we had last November, to inform them that a new one had developed this April, nothing more.

It should be noted that 129.215.149.96's upon me come on the heels of a series of exchanges I had with User:DracoEssentialis on the Touré talk page, in which I criticized DracoEssentialis for reacting to the developing consensus in that discussion by lashing out at those who had argued against her position (most established editors there favored including Touré's surname in his article, whereas Draco is one of the few who did not). I pointed out that Draco attacked other editors, cast aspersions on their edit counts and edit histories, and used ad hominem comments to smear them, which I thought was "slimy". This exchange, in which I falsified most of the statements and claims that she made, began with a post by Draco on April 14, and concluded with my 00:34, 16 April 16 post. This is important, not only because the low number of editors who favored omitting his surname in the article makes the number of people with a motive to attack me low, but because of the language that 129.215.149.96 used in their attack:

This isn't surprising considering nightscream's slimy debating tactics and ad hominem smears

The fact that 129.215.149.96 employs wording that I used in my statements to DracoEssentialis: "slimy", "ad hominem" and "smears", would seem to imply that 129.215.149.96 is making a deliberate reference to my own past statements to DracoEssentialis as some type of jab at me, perhaps by DracoEssentialis herself, a confederate, or like-minded individual. (I do not know if it is DracoEssentialis, and do not wish to falsely accuse or malign anyone, so if someone would like to perform an IP checkuser, it might be a good idea.) It certainly can't be because 129.215.149.96 genuinely believes that I have engaged in any ad hominem remarks or smears against other editors, since 129.215.149.96 never bothers to offer any diffs or any type of elaboration on this. This is also illustrated by 129.215.149.96's attempt to join another ANI discussion above with this comment, in which she references the Touré talk page matter in a completely unrelated and irrelevant discussion about edit warring and 3RR at the Cash for Gold (South Park) article.

Unless 129.215.149.96 can illustrate validity to these accusations or remarks, he/she should be politely informed that this behavior is not permitted on Misplaced Pages. Nightscream (talk) 17:36, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

I left the user a polite note pointing out that their behaviour was inappropriate, and suggesting the right way to pursue such complaints if they have any merit. Cheers, Bovlb (talk) 20:54, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Somali disambiguation

I wanted to move the article 'Somali' to Somali (disambiguation), because that page is a disambiguation. But there is already a page existing as Somali Disambiguation but that one is redirecting to the Somali article. My purpose was to rename the Somali article to Somali disambiguation, and redirect the Somali article to the Somali people article. But this issue is standing in the way. Is there a way to swap the title of those to articles? Thank you. Runehelmet (talk) 17:38, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

If I'm not quite mistaken, current guidelines actually favour leaving such pages at the simple title, unless there is one clearly most prominent "primary topic", i.e. an actual article that should be at the simple title Somali instead. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:45, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

yes, I wanted to move the Somali article to Somali people article. And make the current Somali article a disambiguation page. For example if you search Arab it will refer you to the Arab people but it will notice you too for the disambiguation page. Runehelmet (talk) 17:49, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, but the difference is that "Arab" doesn't do this double duty: the word only refers to the people, while the language is called "Arabic". "Somali", in this respect, appears to be more like German, Greek, English, Chinese and others. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:37, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Racist vandalism by Sherepunjab

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Call me old fashioned, and many do, but I believe this is racist vandalism. The user has just come off a one week block for personal attacks and then does this. Darkness Shines (talk) 17:56, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

• I notice he has only made 3 edits since being off his 3rd block, none of which are very constructive. I'm not sure if this is obvious racism or not, but it is clearly and blatantly and malicious vandalism, at the very least. I don't think that escalating templates on his talk page regarding his vandalism are going to get the point across here. A brief look through his contrib history is a mixed bag but recent activity make it appear he is no longer here to build an encyclopedia. Seeing that he just came off of a block, the failure may have been in its duration. Dennis Brown (talk) (contrib) 18:18, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

User has been blocked indef. --RacerX Talk to me 18:20, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

In 20 minutes without dicussion or a possible counterpoint?Lihaas (talk) 22:26, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

22 minutes actually, but it was obvious vandalism and no administrator will want to miss out on the chance of a quick indefing. Meowy 23:47, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

User:Joeyhorrace and Editing of Delta Goodrem

This user continues to add unsourced speculation to the page, despite being warned to not do such actions. And they continually do it everyday, adding the same piece of information. And I felt it should be brought to the attention of the AN/I. _{MusicFreak7676} 19:25, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

• I left a message on their talk page explaining the situation a bit more, so we will see what happens. You did leave him two personal notes previously, which is good. Sometimes a more verbose and softer touch works more effectively. Hopefully he will start communicating and no further action will be required. I'm thinking it is just a lack of understanding of the guidelines, and not any kind of malice, but it does need addressing. Dennis Brown (talk) (contrib) 20:24, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Thank you Dennis. I just know that they've been continuing at add it over the past few days, since the first notice. _{MusicFreak7676} 21:43, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

User promoting a movement

• User talk:완젬스 (redirects to User talk:67.77.174.6 -- redirect has since been removed as a result of this discussion)
• User_talk:Gandydancer#A brownie for you!
• Talk:Reactions to Occupy Wall Street#Possible removal of antisemitism paragraph
• Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject OWS#The Jew problem on facebook
• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Reactions_to_Occupy_Wall_Street&diff=488372101&oldid=488325297

This user is about 6 months old. In that time he has developed a history of pointing out his real-life ties to the Occupy Wall Street movement and furthermore prodding discussions subtly over to addressing how best to preserve its interests, which often toy with the boundaries of using Misplaced Pages inappropriately to promote the movement. He also addresses individuals who appear supportive of the movement on their talk pages to announce his shared allegiance, and attempted to determine my own allegiances by asking me outright.

This latest instance, linked in the diff above, made the most troubling statement yet: that he is attempting to keep content out of the Reactions to Occupy Wall Street article because it would hurt the movement, while describing his use of policy-based arguments as a cover for that vested interest. I replied noting my suspicion that he was actually here to make OWS look bad, as his behavior is so blatantly nefarious that it seems like he wants to create evidence that OWS' representation on Misplaced Pages is heavily COI-influenced.

Whether 완젬스 does seek to create that allusion or if he's actually attempting to use Misplaced Pages to promote the movement (the latter seems doubtful to me), it doesn't seem to matter much. Either way his behavior appears to be of enough concern to address here. I'm proposing a topic ban for this user, and the IP account he apparently identifies with, from editing any OWS-related articles and talk pages, and from discussing OWS-related topics on any other page. Equazcion 20:01, 20 Apr 2012 (UTC)

This quote from the diff you provided certainly indicates an agenda being pushed: " It's just this way because of an election year, and after Nov 6th 2012 I will actually be the first person to reinsert the antisemitism stuff because it's inevitably the right thing to do". If it is the right thing to do after 11/6/2012, it is the right thing to do now. JoeSperrazza (talk) 20:14, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

It's been clear to me that 완젬스 is a False flag operative for some time. Hipocrite (talk) 20:18, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm going to be undoing that redirect on his talk page, in preparation for what I smell to be a block. —Jeremy v^_^v 20:32, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

I love the smell of blocks in the morning! Sorry obligatory reference. :P I am curious why user preferred a Korean username. User seems to be entirely contributing to very high profile current events (Occupy Wall Street (and related articles), Occupy Oakland, Shooting of Trayvon Martin, Madigan Army Medical Center (correlates with Panjwai shooting spree)). -- A Certain White Cat 20:48, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm unsure, but the actual reason for the removal is to move that talkpage onto his. He just copy-and-paste moved it there, but I intend to legitimately move it once the speedy tag is serviced. —Jeremy v^_^v 20:53, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

I have been having many headbutts with Equazcion for quite some time. I'm feeling very frustrated and extremely agitated today. It's definitely been a blowup & I feel like Equazcion has pushed my buttons and made me react in such a way that is detrimental to myself. I kindly ask if we can let this de-escalate first? This stuff happened within an hour ago, and I'm already stressing out and feeling like Equazcion is stressing my nerves. I never felt this way due to Misplaced Pages before--it's like hearing bad news over the phone, like you're fired or a family member has been seriously injured. I'm really agitated and I hope we can try WP:Mediation or WP:RFC where I don't feel this much urgency or sense of crisis. The administrator's noticeboard is a very traumatic turn of events, and I am not able to respond well or type well. This really feels hurtful & tortuous. 완젬스 (talk) 20:45, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Please do not remove other peoples comments. -- A Certain White Cat 20:48, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Note that the comment I pointed out and the discussion he started today came before my addressing him -- my statements only came after them in reply. I'm not sure how they could've resulted from me "pushing his buttons". Equazcion 20:51, 20 Apr 2012 (UTC)

I have escalated the issue to Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/완젬스. I think this is a more organized campaign that needs a much closer look. -- A Certain White Cat 21:05, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Good idea -- though a topic ban for this user seems appropriate either way, IMO. Equazcion 21:08, 20 Apr 2012 (UTC)

Guys, please remember that a block is to prevent damage or disruption to Misplaced Pages, not to punish users. I am very, very sorry for being tilted today. I clearly behaved in a way that was reflective of a poor emotional state. I got infuriated by an off-wiki argument with another facebook user about George Zimmerman crowding out the media coverage. He unfriended me, blocked me, and logged off. I felt so conceited because of the seriousness of how hard it hit me. I smoked a couple cigarettes and I'm feeling better now. I wish to apologize to equazcion and request for this ANI to be transferred to Mediation, dispute resolution, rfc, or a less intensive process. I have full respect for the admins here at Misplaced Pages, and I want those of you to know I don't intend to cause trouble. If I could curl up into my hole and disappear, I would gladly do so. I want to reply but I don't know what to address? Yes, April 20th was a shameful day for me. I got careless, reckless, and cynical. I've come to realize while smoking the cigarettes that what happened to me on facebook wasn't that bad after all, and I should not jeopardize my standing as a welcomed editor (see my talk page & edit history before Apr 20th) nor should I ever take my status here for granted. Editing is a privilege, not a right, and I hope you guys sincerely believe me that I share the same sense of community here. I've been relatively inactive since March (and looking at my own edit history--my edits dropped off right when I participated constructively in the Trayvon Martin article). I'm a very passionate editor and George Zimmerman becoming a free man again today lead to a furious uproar within me about him being free again, and the peaceful solitude I had from April 13th (when he got arrested) until today (when he was bailed out) took a toll on me greater than I could deal with. It's so hard for me to be powerless and watch the news cycle as it happens. For that, I owe Equaczion an apology, and I humbly request from the admins if I can be allowed another venue to deal with this matter. I wish to proceed but it might be seen as a bad faith apology or be seen as preemptive if I do not first share with all of you how I feel about this, and how I beg of it to be resolved. There's no need to block me unless you think I'll re-engage on the occupy article or its talk page. I just want to apologize, log out of Misplaced Pages for the weekend, have another cigarette, take my dog on a walk, and crawl up into a ball and go to sleep, so that when I wake up, I can have closure on this process and await a more subdued process such as WP:DR or WP:M or WP:RFC or any other recommendation you have for me. Everybody has that one day in their Misplaced Pages career that they wish they could take back, and now all I can do is refrain myself from the article voluntarily, give my apologies to equaczion, and deal with the decision that is handed down to me here. I beg for any mercy or compassion because I'm just so distraught, agitated, and powerless. 완젬스 (talk) 21:20, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

This issue is hardly confined to today's events, and the topic ban I'm suggesting is to prevent COI or false flag damage, not to punish. Equazcion 21:30, 20 Apr 2012 (UTC)

Having a bias or COI does not merit what you are recommending. The latter accusations (false flag) are equally baseless as the SPI accusation. Take off your hater-boots and quit kicking a guy when he's down. I've been through enough today and I just want this feeling to go away. 완젬스 (talk) 21:44, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

I've followed the Occupy articles since last fall, particularly the OWS one, and at the time I just thought User:완젬스 was overly eager to support the cause here. He's been warned for months by various editors not to let his pro-OWS views get in the way of contributing, yet he ignores them and seems to have gotten more brazen. Now that I read Equazcion's suspicion about his covert intentions, confirmed by Hipocrite, I have to say in hindsight his posts make more sense in that light. El duderino (talk) 21:59, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Yes, which is why I said Equaczion was "pushing my buttons" to make me defend such an indefensible position. I volunteer on the main OWS facebook page, and I was having a very frustrated day (even calling people in the movement "occutards" which I have never done before today). There are two factions within OWS. I am in the pro-Obama faction, and I am very frustrated at the occupiers who throw around antisemitic wall posts (which I have to constantly monitor and police) and create antisemitic wall posts (which if I or someone doesn't take them down in 15 minutes, they spread like wildfire) (i.e. see here) because the "occutards" are not helping Obama and are only making OWS look antisemitic. (this pic specifically) Basically within OWS there are a handful of people who give everyone a bad name, and don't know the purpose of the movement is to help democratic politicians in the same way that the tea party helped republican politicians. The idiots I have to deal with day-in and day-out on facebook are antisemitic, lazy, self-entitled, sheep. They do as much damage as the Occupy Oakland black-block guys who broke into city hall and destroyed a children's art exhibit. I'm a "starbucks liberal" and want a clean, violence-free, antisemitism-free, stigma-free occupy movement. I have immense frustration due to our bad apples within OWS who moronically post antisemitic wall photos attributed to Occupy Wall Street, and for that reason, I can be both for Occupy Wall Street (such as back in 2011 during our rosy days) and be cynical/jaded in having to deal with the punks who give our movement a bad name with antisemitic artwork. Thanks for the first part of your statement because if I were false-flag, then I would only be cancelling myself out. (i.e. erasing the positive work I did last year by my frustrations today or alternatively, last year was a setup for me to be a "false flag" on a scarce handful of days in 2012). Either way, my explanation today is totally in line with all my "venting posts" earlier today. It started with an argument about OWS competing for media coverage against America's obsession with George Zimmerman, and me chastising people who don't realize when our coverage is diminished, then the media's tendency will be to over-report the negative stuff (like antisemitic artwork) and under-report our May 1st General Strike and the 99% spring. I apologize so much but back in 2011, I was "new" in the facebook leadership hierarchy, and since 2012 I have been promoted due to being Korean, since all the high-ranking online moderators were white males. If you want the simplest explanation--just look to my stress level and my facebook promotion. That is the truth of why I'm more cynical/jaded in 2012 about the occupy movement (because I have to constantly deal with the bad apples who make violent/antisemitic/anarchist comments on FB wall) compared to last year when those people who are overworked, overstressed (like I am today) saw me as a gullible fool who would happily volunteer for the extra drama, extra headaches, and extra stress.

My promotion through the OWS channels in facebook has shed light on why I'd try to recruit someone gullible, starry-eyed, and optimistic about the movement too. They'll do free work if you promote them to sysop--and 4 months later, they become tired, frustrated, and disillusioned. (I'm sure becoming an admin at wikipedia has that same "reality check" 6 months later when you wonder why you wanted to become an admin, ever...) That's the real reason why my attitude has evolved. It isn't some sort of complex, pre-engineered plan to hurt the movement. If I could, I would denigrate the saboteurs within OWS who draw negative attention to our limited prime time media coverage through actions including, but not limited to: drug use, violence, antisemitism, etc... How could these people not know better? It's like the idiots who took picture of a suicide bomber's remains and figured it wouldn't hurt the image of our military here. 완젬스 (talk) 22:22, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

We're here to discuss your behavior on the wiki. These walls of text describing internal supposed OWS issues really have no bearing on this discussion, and only serve to muddy the water. I'd invite an uninvolved party to consider collapsing them. Equazcion 22:31, 20 Apr 2012 (UTC)

Do you still believe in the assertion of false flag? (because the long argument was to show you an alternative explanation of why my attitude in 2011 is different than 2012--the "promotion" I received in the facebook group directly correlates with the stress level of an admin verses the stress level of a regular person). If you will drop your false-flag accusation (and let us civilly discuss bias/coi then I'd be happy to) but if you accuse me of bias, coi, false-flag, and spi, then you will deservedly receive a lengthy response. You're desperate to nail me with anything--just like I described multiple ways to scuttle a maneuver. You are trying to hang me by 4 different ropes. I have apologized. I have explained myself. Please let us wait for the SPI review to take its course rather than your "hater boots" trying their best to engage in unfriendly jesting. 완젬스 (talk) 22:44, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

While the user in question certainly has some doubt, Equazcion comments on the talk page of the said reaction to OWS in regards to the removal of the passage is not at all conducive to discussion or constructive either to the issue of the moreval and the comntent. The NPA there of accusing someones stance was exactly what was questioned when the original complainant asked the same question. There is then a followup by the said user which is irrelevant and yet another user who makes a statement that is irrelevant to CONTENT discussions. This is clearly distracting to get consensus on the passage brought for questioning. This would also be more appropriate to the COI boadLihaas (talk) 23:12, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

After skimming through a bunch of stuff in this users contribs, it's blatantly obvious to me that 완젬스 has a conflict of interest, in that he is not here to build an encyclopedia. 완젬스 is instead here to ensure that the OWS movement is represented in a positive light on Misplaced Pages, and so that the user can receive personal recognition for making that happen, as can be seen by this March 15, 2012 diff. There are other clear indications of the problem on just about all of this user's contributions to date, including some of the statements here in this AN/I thread (or, alternatively, to make OWS look bad, as Equazcion speculates in his opening statement). That being the case, I support a topic ban at the least. (I have a feeling that this person is a sock of someone else, based on some of the comments on their talk page, but this seems worth nailing down regardless... Misplaced Pages shouldn't be a platform for advocacy, after all).
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 03:11, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

SPI for user 완젬스

I will hopefully be cleared by the SPI. Can I please ask user:A_Certain_White_Cat to assume good faith? I've acted humbly, respectfully, and deferentially since it was brought to my attention that I'm here at WP:ANI. I want to preface the investigation by saying that I hope your theory that this is an orchestrated campaign can be challenged if your prediction is incorrect. The only SPI problem individual we ever had on OWS articles was user:CentristFianco here. There has never been an allegation about SPI about me before. The only complaints I've had thrown against me were having a pro-OWS bias, which I try to mitigate by only editing sections of the article which are 100% objective (e.g. funding section). I confidently await for the SPI investigation and I have full confidence that there is no conspiracy theory going on. This is just me having a miserable day that I wish I could "undo" but in life, you make mistakes. I just hope my sincerity and honesty will clear up this regretful mishap. I am deeply sorry for my edits today, and they are completely shameful. However, I would never have multiple accounts because that thwarts the consensus process and makes Misplaced Pages worse off for everyone. Hopefully, this SPI issue will encourage everyone to go further back in my edits than my most recent 50 (March 28th - April 20th) and I can have learned this painful lesson and--pending the SPI investigation--I can be given back my editing privileges. I will not damage or do harm. I'm simply inexperienced and too thin-skinned to have the discipline and maturity which you admins have; but, I'm much more aware of my weaknesses after today. I stopped myself once the ANI was posted, and I've done no further self-destructive edits. I feel good about my initial reaction and taking 15 minutes outside to re-think. I hope the SPI will cast doubt to the idea that I'm a conspiring misanthrope. My personality is much too timid and anxious for that type of deliberate malice. I hope the SPI gives evidence to my side of the story. 완젬스 (talk) 21:39, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

I am not assuming anything. I am following the evidence. -- A Certain White Cat 21:42, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your patience. I really do want the SPI to show you that I've been honest here in dealing with today's ANI. I don't want this ANI to drag out or waste anyone's time. There are so many trolls, sock puppets, anon vandals, and other garbage you guys gotta deal with here. I hope to just escape unscathed and disappear from your memory banks. I'm not a bad person at all--just having a really, really bad day which I 100% regret at this point. 완젬스 (talk) 21:47, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Efforts of Equaczion to truncate my posts

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:The_Bushranger&oldid=488412395#ANI_issue Please tell Equaczion to refrain from trying to truncate my posts. Correct me if I am wrong, but that's only at WP:Mediation where the mediator has discretion to truncate/edit other users posts and/or move posts to the talk page. He is canvassing now to find a willing admin who agrees with him, but I stand by my argument that if he accuses me of 4 things (bias, coi, false flag, and spi) then he opens up 4 areas for me to defend myself. Also, he will not wait for the SPI to run its course. He has his "hater boots" and I believe he is acting punitively rather than the original issue. This noticeboard should not be a war of attrition or a battle of who can outmaneuver the other person by him having more experience than me. I consider this issue dormant until the SPI investigation is complete or the SPI accusation is withdrawn. 완젬스 (talk) 23:40, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

I asked one admin (User:The Bushranger) for advice on handling this, and he did not say he disagreed -- he just said he didn't want to read through your long posts to figure out what was going on (which, incidentally, is the issue I'm trying to address with these requests). He advised me to ask someone else, and I did. I'm not canvassing for people who agree with me. Equazcion 23:44, 20 Apr 2012 (UTC)

(ec)It is cruel and unusual punishment to be sitting for 4 hours hitting refresh on my own WP:ANI. I am held hostage by him because he is dragging this thing out so unfairly. Can someone correct me if I am wrong, but I find it unfair that he is so adamant about getting me topic banned based on bias/coi rather than the coi noticeboard or rfc. It's very unnerving and affecting my real life. I'm afraid to take a break because I don't know what he'll do next. This is simmilar in intent to lawsuit meant to discourage the other party. He is a veteran editor and I'm barely defending myself from these indefensible accusations. Can somebody tell us whether we should wait until SPI is completed or we should take this to a more appropriate noticeboard such as WP:coi as has been suggested already by an admin? 완젬스 (talk) 23:45, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

What's "cruel and unusual" here is trying to slog though your walls of text... I'm half tempted to propose you be blocked just so that the rest of us could discuss this without it being disrupted by dissertations posted by you! Can one of you please restate what the hell the problem here is, succinctly? Sheesh! (And, by the way, the fact that you feel you have to "sit here and hit refresh" tells me that there probably is a real problem here. Just sayin')
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 00:08, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

I'd suggest waiting for the result of the SPI case before investing any further time here. If he's a sock, then that's the end of it. If not, then we can delve into the actual issue. ‑Scottywong| confabulate _ 00:16, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Since 완젬스 seems confident the SPI will come back negative, and SPIs usually take a while, I think it's prudent to try to nip this now rather than attempt to start it up again in the future (whenever the SPI closes, and who ever knows when that will be). Ohms, if you read my initial post, it states the issue and pertinent evidence. 완젬스's defense is rather unclear to me, and I wouldn't try to sum it up anyway since I'm involved. If you take a skim through his large walls of text it should give you an idea. Equazcion 00:24, 21 Apr 2012 (UTC)

(ec)Thanks to both of you admins. I've been defending myself for 5 hours and have gone through 10 cigarettes, some red bulls, and plenty of tylenol. If equaczion continues posting in my absence, please let me reserve the chance tomorrow afternoon to defend myself. WP:ANI is a very serious threat to my editing privileges, which mean a lot to me--enough to endure all the consequences to my shameful mistakes and to hopefully grow from this prolonged, embarrassing shakedown. Cordially, 완젬스 (talk) 00:28, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Dude. If you're really that stressed out about this, you might want to take a break and do something else for a few days. Or, do some things on this list. ‑Scottywong| gab _ 02:03, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Yea, no kidding. The one thing that's really clear to me here is that this guy needs to relax. Geez. That, and a general cluelessness (which can't be helped by anything but time and experience, but it does provide some insight into possible behavior issues).
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 02:50, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm not entirely dissuaded by this victim act, but I'll let everyone judge for themselves. Equazcion 02:52, 21 Apr 2012 (UTC)

I believe you mean "persuaded" not "dissuaded". Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:29, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

...as in dissuaded from my assertions/recommendation :) Equazcion 03:38, 21 Apr 2012 (UTC)

The bottom line is, if he's not socking then he should relax and not worry about it. Does anyone know of a case where someone was wrongly determined to be a sock? I doubt it has ever happened. Fasttimes68 (talk) 03:45, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Just to clarify, sock or not, I think a topic ban is in order as his behavior has been problematic, and indicative of either COI or a false-flag operation. After I brought this up, another user thought this might be part of a larger socking scheme -- maybe that's true and maybe it's not, but either way, the issue that brought this here still stands. Equazcion 03:52, 21 Apr 2012 (UTC)

What are legitimate grounds for a precipitate block for edit warring?

I have to ask, as admin User:Tiptoety seemed to think that diffs to five edits made in two and a half months do, and blocked me (without any prior warning, or any input in the talk page discussions) accordingly - the block has of course been lifted. TenOfAllTrades summarises the diffs given as 'evidence' nicely:

1. 19 April - restored a critical comment about the product's nutritional value
2. 11 April - undid a whitewash that deleted well-referenced mention of the company CEO's legal troubles related to a previous health drink
3. 1 March - removed an unsourced description of a critic as a 'competitor'
4. 27 February - removed the same unsourced description (this is the only revert which Andy repeated, and the only time Andy reverted twice within a seven-day period)
5. 7 February - removed the addition of what amounted to an advertising blurb for a new product.

In the same period of time, Andy has posted five times to the article talk page, relating to the edits that he has made. Where is the fire that your block is putting out, Tiptoety? TenOfAllTrades(talk) 18:21, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

This is in relation to our article on MonaVie a 'multi-level-marketing' company of dubious repute which promotes vastly-overpriced fruit juices for 'health and wellness' despite a complete lack of evidence for any meaningful benefits. I suggest that a look at the article history, and the talk page, will illustrate why this article is of concern to me, and to other editors (one of whom User:Rhode Island Red is still blocked, along with User:Ed.Valdez who was deleting sourced negative information from the article).

As I wrote on my talk page, it seems to me that this block is sufficiently contrary to established Misplaced Pages policy and procedures that I have to question the fitness of User:Tiptoety as an administrator. Or have I misunderstood policy to the extent that attempts to maintain NPOV, and requirements regarding reliable sourcing, in articles being 'spun' by multiple SPAs is to be understood as against policy? If so, Misplaced Pages has a serious problem.

At minimum, we need a clarification of policy here, and an explanation from User:Tiptoety as to how he/she came to make such a decision - Tiptoety's only response so far has been to post a rather dismissive (and factually incorrect) comment on my talk page: . Contrary to the assertion therin, I had been engaged in talk-page discussions regarding the article content. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:19, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Andy, can you explain why, rather than use standard practices for dealing with an editor you believed to be disruptive, you (and others) simply continued to undo his changes (the same ones or different ones), over and over? Can you explain why, given that you've previously been blocked for edit warring and are clearly very much aware of the policy, and yet you continued to revert on MonaVie, you feel that Tiptoety should have had reason to believe yet another warning drawing your attention to the policy would have had any effect? These questions also apply to RhodeIslandRed and EdValdez, if they'd care to answer them. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 20:30, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

I have the memory of a sieve. Could you point to one time you've dealt, before getting your precious tools, with a disruptive editor who was not a blatant vandal? Thanks! Hipocrite (talk) 21:00, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Can we please stay on topic - this isn't about User:Fluffernutter. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:24, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

@ Fluffernutter: Can you explain why you consider any of my actions as contrary to policy? And, in answer to your question, if the problem had been a single editor, of course 'standard practices' may be effective - but how long do you expect it would take for another POV-pushing SPA to appear? Articles of this nature are inherently prone to systematic spinning by those with utter disregard for Misplaced Pages policy, and NPOV can only ever me maintained by watching the article itself: sadly, this sort of thing is a disheartening and thankless task. Maybe I should stop doing it, and leave the articles to the snake-oil salesmen... AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:44, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Andy, from my point of view the entire recent history of the article has violated policy because editors seem to have mostly given up on talking, and have settled on just undoing each other repeatedly ("a series of back and forth reverts", to quote WP:EW). Multiple editors were involved in this, and I think Tiptoety was not out of left field to stop the behavior with blocks, though obviously it's debatable whether that turned out to be the best strategy.

As far as handling POV pushing, there's a couple ways to deal with that if it can be established that it's happening. ANI has recently started handing out discretionary sanctions on articles and topics, if I recall correctly, which means that if a case is made here that MonaVie has a long-term history of SPAs or POV pushing, the article could be placed under 1RR or problematic editors could be topic banned with much more ease than they currently are. ANI has also always been able to topic-ban or block individual editors if evidence can be presented of them misbehaving. Arbcom, obviously, has the same abilities. It would be extremely disappointing if you opted to stop editing the article because of POV pushing or other problems, and I encourage you to not do that. What I'm trying to communicate, actually, is that we do have the ability to handle problem editors. You don't have to do it all yourself (alone or among two or three of you) when we have so many processes that can - really can, I promise - help you address the root cause instead. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 22:41, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Fluffernutter's protestations seem to ring a bit hollow, given that he has made his own very similar reverts to the very same article over the years: , , , . This seems to be very much a 'do as I say, not as I do' situation. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 22:24, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Exactly. some statistics from the MonaVie article contributions history to ponder:

AndyTheGrump: article edits 11, talk page edits 15.

Fluffernutter: article edits 7, talk page edits 1.

I think that lectures on "editors seem to have mostly given up on talking" coming from someone in that situation are somewhat questionable. Not that I had 'given up on talking' anyway, as the article talk page shows. Still, this is all rather off-topic anyway: I still want to hear from User:Tiptoety regarding the more important issue: his/her interpretation of policy, and why it is so far at odds with with other contributors and admins. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:10, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Tiptoety seems to be relying on a very broad interpretation of the opening sentence of WP:3RR: "An edit war occurs when editors who disagree about the content of a page repeatedly override each other's contributions, rather than trying to resolve the disagreement by discussion." Even assuming an admin can block without warning a user who "repeatedly" reverts over a 2-month period, it doesn't address the caveat about resolving the disagreement by discussion, which, for the moment, I will take you at your word you did. In addition, given the outer boundaries of the policy that Tiptoety is invoking, I would think that a warning would precede a block. Finally, Tiptoety's statement that Andy has been blocked before and therefore he must know the rules, implying that a block isn't needed, is a bit sly as, again, this isn't your standard edit war, and many users, not just Andy, would be taken aback by such a block.--Bbb23 (talk) 20:37, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I've unblocked both User:Rhode Island Red and User:Ed.Valdez following the discussion on Andy's TP. I'm not sure if any further admin action is required or not. SmartSE (talk) 20:39, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Technically yes, since the autoblocks were still in place. That issue is solved though. :) Excirial 20:55, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

This was a massive breach of admin authority. You cant decide unilaterally on your own to block someone prer WP:IDONTLIKEIT with a word of community consensus. Should be outright WP:BOOMERANG...but then again ive seen that happen when an admin feels like doing so to no accountability. (a la HJMitchell on me). Its stilly to have permanent admins...should be elected rotationally to keep them accountable an don their toes. Many will very well get reelected but many others wont.Lihaas (talk) 23:04, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Oh my, term limits with a twist. Another in the line of if-an-admin-makes-a-mistake-kill-them.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:09, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

• This is a serious issue as there are hundreds of articles about dubious companies, diploma mills, products, and similar SPA magnets. Yes, discussion is necessary and edit warring is bad, but the standard required by Tiptoety in this case is so unrealistic as to fail the laugh test. Would people please review the history at MonaVie (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) and comment on how they would like an admin to handle such a situation? I find it unacceptable that an admin should think it desirable to block an editor who has made three edits in the past two months with no warning that such high standards were expected (particularly when each of the three edits is good, and the editor made three good comments at the talk page in the same period). Are there some particular sanctions applying to this topic, or should good editors abandon trying to protect Misplaced Pages from SPA POV pushers? Johnuniq (talk) 01:35, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Note: Tiptoety has now posted on my talk page, first with a rather equivocal apology , and then, after I suggested that a response here would seem appropriate, a repeat of the apology, and a statement that he/she has "no interest in furthering the drama an AN/I". Frankly, I find this rather distainful dismissal of due process further grounds to question Tiptoety's qualifications to be an admin. A gross misunderstanding of Misplaced Pages policy like this needs more than half-hearted apologies, as Johnuniq suggests above. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:53, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I can only second Johnuniq's comments. First off how can any of the three blocks handed out be viewed as anything but punitive? If it truly was a slow edit war (and the evidence for that is lacking) 24 hour blocks are not going to "prevent" anything. As has been shown discussion about the article was taking place on its talk page so the block did not cool anyone off or start a discussion where one wasn't going on. Next, I know that it is nice idea to have a "stable" version of an article but at its basic level Misplaced Pages is designed so that articles evolve and change over time, thus, the term "stable" is relative. When it comes to articles about politics (current politics anyway), religion and pseudo science experience has shown that it is unlikely that there will ever be a "stable" version. Even if an article has achieved some stability for a few months new SPA's and POV pushers will always arrive. In this case it looks like the admin culled through the edit history and then blocked those that had made changes over a period of weeks or months without thoroughly investigating what those edits were. If an admin is in the pursuit of a "stable" version of an article they should make sure that they have all of the facts at hand before making a decision to block anyone. That involves discussing things with the editors involved. They could then issue suggestions to the parties. Also, I don't see anything that states that uninvolved admins or editors can't start a "Request for Comment" or get a "Dispute Resolution" process underway. Either of those would be better than pulling the trigger and issuing punitive blocks. Blocks like this one can only have a chilling effect on the community at large and that will only embolden vandals, SPAs and POV pushers. MarnetteD | Talk 02:21, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Oh the drahma. An admin made a mistake. We all make mistakes. Even AndyTheGrump makes mistakes. The mistake was swiftly rectified. No harm to ATG. Tiptoety admitted the mistake and apologized. Regardless, ATG maintains full-blown vindictive mode, with repeated po-faced assertions that the mistake - and the choice not to participate in this dramafest - are "grounds for questioning" Tiptoety's "suitability as an administrator". Please. Get over yourself Andy. To be AndyTheMagnanimous might even make you feel good! Writegeist (talk) 03:23, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

So admins issuing precipitous drive-by blocks and then apologising (less than enthusiastically) afterwards when called to account by multiple contributors isn't an issue for ANI? What the heck is this noticeboard for then? Or are admins supposed to get a free pass? As for 'No harm to ATG', ignoring the fact that I've had to waste hours sorting this mess out when I could have been doing something more useful, other contributors were also blocked. More to the point though Tiptoety still seems to think that this was some sort of 'judgement call', whereas almost everyone else seems to think otherwise. So yes, I question Tiptoety's "suitability as an administrator" - as I (and any other Misplaced Pages contributor) is entitled to, particularly when they seem to be so clueless about policy, and so dismissive of requests to adequately explain themselves. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:02, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Dismissing Andy's report in these terms implies that the other editors who have commented here and elsewhere are misguided and that their comments need no consideration. A quick resolution would start with a consensus that the blocks were wildly wrong (not just a "mistake")—any good editor would have done what Andy did. Johnuniq (talk) 04:10, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Bunch of issues with user Poesam

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

While doing new page patrols, I came across Non Treaty Chippewa Indians this page which has no citations and is overtly POV. I tagged it as such. The editor, Poesam removed the tags. I put them back and added a note on the Talk page. He removed them again. I then started looking at all the pages he's created lately, and they are almost all on the same topic (Native Americans) and they all have absolutely no sources. I posted this friendly piece of advice on his page. I also submitted the Chippewa Indians page for deletion (and have started to comment on some of his other pages which are up for deletion.) Poesam responded with this less-than-friendly response, complete with this gem: "You know what happens to criminals who intrude. Incredible numbers of innocent people end up killed." I don't know if it's exactly a threat, per se, but I figured it was probably something that should be addressed by admin...

Aside from banning him (which is I'm assuming what will happen here, but if you guys decide a warning is warranted, I don't really care) I believe we need to go through and delete most or all of the pages he's created. But, I can just go one by one and have them deleted through the usual channels.JoelWhy (talk) 21:09, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Not to be melodramatic here or anything, but...do I contact the cops to notify them of the pseudo threat? I really don't think he was threatening me, directly, but if his comments are forewarning that he's planing a mass killing spree, I'd feel pretty bad if I didn't say anything. (But, seriously, if I'm totally overreacting, please tell me.)JoelWhy (talk) 21:14, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

• I've indef blocked - that attack was not acceptable. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 21:23, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

User:Tolea93

Tolea93 (talk · contribs) is nonstop modifying demographic info in many pages without references and makes other strange edits, despite extremely numerous warnings by many users in their talk page and even block. IMO it is time to block this user for good. Staszek Lem (talk) 21:39, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

• Please note that you are required to notify editors if you are making claims against them at ANI. I went ahead and notified them for you. Dennis Brown (talk) (contrib) 21:42, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
• A closer look at the contribs does show two previous blocks (24/48h) and lots of edits without sources as you state. No vandalism, but it is disruptive. They have refused to communicate, but since a great number of their edits are almost exclusively Moldavian in nature, I wonder if it is a language barrier. Most of the edits have been numbers, not words. I've been to Chişinău, it was nice, but I noticed that most Moldavians don't speak English and I don't speak Romanian (Moldovan) so I'm no help there. For now, a short term block might be warranted. Dennis Brown (talk) (contrib) 21:57, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

  Yes, no vandalism, therefore I didn't report it at the anti-vandal page. Language or not, if the person does not cooperate for whatever reason, they out. There is a full Romanian Misplaced Pages for them. (BTW, some think there is no Moldovan language, so if you don't speak Portuguese, you probably don't speak Brazilian language too :-) Staszek Lem (talk) 22:16, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

• And an indef block is a pretty extreme step when there isn't intentional misconduct, *and* I haven't seen that their edits are incorrect, just unsourced. They've had two strikes, I would rather give them one more time at the bat and see if we can communicate better before I throw them out of the game. To be sure, it isn't my call, just my opinion and not an easy order to fill. As to the Moldavian language, the people I know who live there there call it Romanian and Moldavian interchangeably, but you are right, there is a great amount of confusion over it. Some Moldavians are defensive if you call their language Romanian, which is why I qualified it. Dennis Brown (talk) (contrib) 22:33, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

I don't think an indefinite block is extreme at all. He's been warned before, and his edits ARE inaccurate, not simply unsourced. I opened up an ANI ticket a couple of months ago on him, but only one or two folks replied and it was closed with no action. There is no language barrier. He isn't solely focused on Moldova, and randomly changes statistics on many USA related sites as well. He started out in June 2011 with a series of edits to Moldova-related articles, and then suddenly this little offensive tidbit appears in an article about Nebraska, USA: ]. None of the edits appear constructive, none are supported by sources, and they are so widespread across unrelated articles that I would only describe the account as being set up solely for random vandalism. Eastcote (talk) 01:33, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

An indef is extreme by its nature, we are telling someone to go away and never come back, which is why it should only be done in extreme cases. The vandalism link you provided is the only one I've seen but does offer better evidence. If you have very good reason to believe that the stats edits were actually factually incorrect, and not just unsourced, that would also lend credibility to the idea that this is one of those cases. In light of this new info, it is getting hard to give them a benefit of the doubt, and while it isn't the strongest case to indef, I would find it hard to argue against it at this point. Dennis Brown (talk) (contrib) 02:04, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Colleague, I am afraid you are confusing an indef block with ban. Nothing that drastic and extreme. If a person starts talking and promises to be more careful in the future, I see no problem with unblocking. Heck, DYK that there even is a special template for unblock request? I suspect even a Transylvanian can guess that "unblock" means "deblocare". Piece of cake. Also, you are putting the policy WP:CITE upside down: I don't have to chase this guy and double-check every number he changed. If you don't want to do a single action and just block him, for month or three, then sure as hell I will daily check his edit history and revert on sight without waiting it goes down the page history so that one would have to manually cut and paste. Face it, this guy is an annoyance to many without important contribution so as to care not to insult him into a departure. Staszek Lem (talk) 02:29, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

• I also thought an indef-block was way too much, but after looking at the block log, the user's contributions, and the recent warnings (thank you Eastcote--this is why god gave us warning templates) I decided that this editor has had plenty of changes to change their ways. However, they chose to not cite information, to not provide edit summaries, and to not engage in talk page conversations. There is an offer out there that they can take if they promise to change their ways; let's hope that they do. Drmies (talk) 02:45, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
  • I endorse the block. Unfortunately if someone refuses to talk about their questionable editing, we have to send them on their way, good faith or no. "Indefinite" doesn't mean permanent, if somehow they had a change of heart and started discussing, they might be unblocked. -RunningOnBrains 03:35, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Source information inquiry for OTRS ticket # 2012022210008719

In order to process an OTRS ticket I need to know the author and any other relevant information as to the source of the following images:

• File:Faceless_girl_in_stockings.JPG
• File:Sasha_lying_on_sofa.JPG
• File:Study_of_a_girl.JPG

Thank for your time, MorganKevinJ 21:40, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

They were all uploaded by Artcollectorgirl (talk · contribs) and described as "Source = http://www.thcayne.com, Author = T. H. Cayne, Permission = granted by the author (T. H. Cayne)". Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:56, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

user:Evlekis, keeps edit warring on my talkpage and other article

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

see http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Hopelesscross&action=history and http://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/Evlekish http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Slavic_peoples&action=history

he accuses me of vandalism for good faith edits, he is olny here on wikipedia to constantly revert everthing, it is true just look at his edits and he keeps edit warring over it that means he constantly reverting edits and edit wars over several articles and talkpages Hopelesscross (talk) 22:35, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

• Deny claim. Asides restoring my vandalism warnings on Hopelesscross' talk page, the issue at hand concerns his abrupt approach to Slavic peoples. My honest impression is that this is a phoenix account of a blocked user as this person has very quickly familiarised himself with ANI and other policies whilst boldly moving articles without consensus and blanking edits as on Slavic peoples citing WP:OR though not explaining what he objects to nor opening a discussion on the talk page. I recently took exception to a matter on Aleksandar Lukashenka and opened a discussion on the talk page and when I failed to obtain a consensus, I left the article and the section I disliked remains to this moment. There are three ways I can think of for handling alleged WP:OR issues, the first as we said is to open a discussion on talk, the second is to place a WP:OR tag by the section in question or the third is to place a citation tag. But courtesy implies - particularly for a new user which this person claims to be - that the article is left alone while the topic is being discussed. I demonstrated this with Lukashenka and have done so many times, there are many things I do not approve of on WP but we don't run amok on bold editing speights. Evlekis (Евлекис) (argue) 22:49, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

• • what about your massive reverting across the whole wikipedia ?! , a simple click to your contributions reveals that you are in a massive edit war over EVRYTHING Hopelesscross (talk) 22:56, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

• Can you please stop shouting? First, if you're goig to accuse an editor of "massive" reverts, then provide at least a bunch of diffs in support of that rather than just telling us to look at his contributions. Second, registering your account 4 days ago, making a handful of edits, and running to ANI probably sets some sort of record. Third, why haven't you brought up these issues on the article Talk page rather than coming here? As for Evlekis, I frankly don't see vandalism here, so I don't see why you're using that label. Also, you, too, could raise the topic on the article Talk page. As Judge Alex Kozinski famously said, "The parties are advised to chill."--Bbb23 (talk) 23:02, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

• I have pointed out to Evlekis that users may remove warnings that have been left on their user talk pages—and that said removal is deemed to be acknowledgment of the warnings. —C.Fred (talk) 23:08, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

• (edit conflict)Hopelesscross accused him of vandalism when it wasn't vandalism, and he reverted on your talk page when he clearly didn't have the right. You are both in the wrong. Vandalism is very narrowly defined and accusing someone of vandalism when their actions are in good faith can get you blocked. You need to talk to other editors before making major changes to articles. What he did was to put templates on your page to inform you that your edits were a problem, and likely he was right. It isn't personal, we use them all the time, and it was proper. Next time just NICELY ask the person who put the template on your page to please explain if you don't understand.

• Hopelesscross, you need to actually use the talk page at Talk:Slavic peoples and work with editors there when adding material. You are new, so ask for help, learn the ropes, but try to deal with problems on an article talk page before coming to ANI. Second, I would like to see Evlekis simply acknowledge that he should not have reverted on Hopelesscross's page. When a user deletes, you know they have read it anyway. You did add some personal notes with your templates, so it is easy to cut you some slack on the revert, but it was improper. Maybe you can take a break from editing and offer to help him a little more, we can call it even. This is just a misunderstanding, a couple of mistakes, nothing got broken. What this situation needs is just a little more communication on the article talk page first, not administrative action. Or you can wait for the guys with the mops to come here and notice that you both screwed up. Dennis Brown (talk) (contrib) 23:11, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

if you look at his contributions directly, you will see the point, what i meant 99% of his edits are reverts Hopelesscross (talk) 23:17, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

All right - I am not now restoring any deletions from the talk page. I believe I claimed vandalism because it was the closest of the options in the automated dropdown to what I could see from the editor. Naturally what he did does not constitute outright vandalism but you must see my point. A new user removes information citing WP:OR, naturally I revert that and this is followed by the amicable decision to alert the new user of his actions by using a L1 warning from the menu - initially it was blanking. The wording is friendly so I believed it to be in good faith. The next two actions by the user were to wipe my caution note AND boldly restore his revision with blanked information and it was at ths point I used the vandal label. Now looking from one angle, true this was not conventional vandalism, but from another point, was it constructive? Nevertheless, it is irrelevant now. I am happy to discuss changes to articles but at this point I still do not know what it was the user was implying when he claimed WP:OR! As soon as he clarifies this, I am only too happy to examine the part and start discussing. Evlekis (Евлекис) (argue) 23:19, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

I admit I wasn't wholly aware of the blanking policy and how my actions violated this so I admit I was in the wrong. To rectify the matter at hand, I have begun a discussion here which I will be watching for the time to come. I believe this is the best way to resolve the matter. Hopelesscross is also correct that a fair chunk of my edits are rollbacks and reverts but each one I can explain if impugned, they are all in good faith. Evlekis (Евлекис) (argue) 23:27, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

• Excellent start. In the future, don't call anything vandalism unless it is clearly an edit that is trying to do bad things at Misplaced Pages, and I think you get that now. What I'm hoping is that you will calmly go work with him on the talk page, cut him a little slack since he is new, and point him in the right direction. IF he will agree to this. Who knows, he may have some great ideas for the article once he learns a little about the guidelines here. I'm hoping that he will listen to me, not revert back, and take the time to learn from all the editors on that page. I don't want to see either of you blocked because I think you both are capable of working this out, and that is always a better solution. Dennis Brown (talk) (contrib) 23:41, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

stop lying as i said, an editing pattern of constant reverting can hardly be considered "good faith" while also considering your edit war on wikipedia Hopelesscross (talk) 23:32, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Accusing editors of lying will not get you very far here.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:36, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

• Hopelesscross, you are at a crossroads here. You both made mistakes but both of you were really trying to do what was right, so I'm recommending you calm down, go to the talk page, and learn a little bit. Go read WP:BRD first. You don't have to agree with me, that is fine, but you will later. Calling someone a liar and pushing this will get you in trouble, and I really do not want to see that happen. You are frustrated because the "rules" at Misplaced Pages are confusing at first, but acting out will only make it worse. He has admitted his mistakes, you are new and you aren't even aware of yours yet, but you made some. I'm trying to cut you some slack, let me and just take my advice. Dennis Brown (talk) (contrib) 23:41, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Beyond that, Hopelesscross, no one's quite articulated this point to you: there is, in fact, nothing wrong or illegitimate with spending your time on Misplaced Pages doing reverts. That is, in fact, what many vandal patrolling editors do. Ravenswing 01:55, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

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